The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 087 – Starting a Church From Scratch in a New Community and Some Insights on Mentoring with Josh Pezold
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 87 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. As I promise, today you are gonna meet Josh Pazold. Josh is a young church planner in New England. He's actually in Rhode Island, and their church has just met with tremendous success. Every time I talk to Josh, it's like another 50 or 100 people have showed up. It's amazing. And I get these requests on a regular basis from people. People hit me up on Facebook or email or whatever, and just like, hey, can you mentor me? And man, I wish the answer to that question was yes. In fact, one of the reasons I do this podcast is it's a way to mentor thousands of leaders at once, at least in some way. But I always have a couple of people that I'll just say, you know what? I'll take you on. Now, please do not bombard me with email. I just, I don't have the bandwidth right now. I'm writing some resources, and sort of that part of the calendar is full. But Josh just asked at the right time, and it worked out, and tomorrow, or not tomorrow, but next week as well, I'm gonna introduce you to Martin Dalind, and he's from Norway. Another guy I have mentored. And I just love these conversations, because number one, the real church planner is doing exactly what you're doing. You know, I love people who have led like tremendously successful ministries, but for the most of us, it's just kind of like, well, you know, I got 50 people, or 100 people, or 200 people, or whatever. And these guys will walk you through it. So I think you're gonna love Josh this week, and Martin next week. And usually we mentor via Skype. Josh and Martin and I'll talk about that a little bit. Josh, actually, and his wife, Katie, they came up here last summer, and they hung out with us for a weekend, and at Connexes Church, where I serve, and stayed at our house. And so it was a great way to get to know them, and they are now expecting a child, and adopting a child at the same time. So it's just, it's really exciting. Plus, he's an associate in planting a church, and he got over one of his biggest fears in the last year, which is like preaching, and man, he killed it. He just crushed it. So there's a lot of fodder for you, I think, over the next few weeks. So anyway, I'm excited for you to meet Josh. He's a friend of mine and a guy that I've been mentoring, and I just think it'll be fun to learn together. Now, if you've missed it, we got a brand new resource for you called The Lasting Impact Team Edition Video Series. And it just released, and if you act now, you can still get into a private Facebook group that I'll be jumping in on in June, and taking some of your questions directly as you lead your congregation or team, or elder board or staff, through some of the most pivotal conversations I think you can have in the church today. It's a companion resource to my new book, Lasting Impact, Seven Powerful Conversations that can help your church grow. If you're interested in the video series, they'll kinda like, before you sort of engage in whatever conversation you're having, like on retaining volunteers, or why your church isn't growing faster, or as your church healthy, some of the conversations we cover in the book, you just kinda play the video, tease the whole thing up. It's me teaching that content and adding some extra stuff, and then jump into the discussion. So hopefully that makes the conversation easier at your church, and you can get more information at lastingimpactbook.com. You can see everything about the book, even download a free chapter, and you also get all the links to take you over to where you can purchase the video series. So we try to do it at a really, really good price point for everybody, I'll tell you, it's a fraction of the cost of flying anybody in. So it's just $79, actually, for the whole eight video series, and then we've even bundled some books together, and you can get different packages. So you can find that all at lasting impact book, and if you act now, you can get in on the special private Facebook group, 'cause that goes away May 31st, so make sure you don't miss that. And one more thing, I'm also in Australia, as you listen to this. We're having up a couple of weeks of, really, a second honeymoon with my amazing wife, Tony. So I'm sure by this point, I'm having a blast with her, and hopefully I haven't been eaten by sharks or anything, but we're working our way up the Gold Coast, just on a couple of weeks, but in about a week, I'm gonna start sort of a speaking circuit in Australia. So I'm going to a number of cities. I'm gonna be in Melbourne, gonna be in Sydney, Brisbane, and Adelaide, and maybe a few other places, and you can get all the information. If you listen from Oz, and I know many of you do, you can go to thinkorange.org.au. That's thinkorange.org.au. Click on events, and you'll see the entire itinerary. I would love to meet you. I'm speaking on a couple of Sundays at Crossway Baptist Church and Discovery Church, also doing numerous conferences, so it's gonna be a great opportunity to connect with you in Australia. Just go to thinkorange.org.au, and I'd love to connect with you if you happen to be down under. And it would just be so great. I went to Australia for the first time four years ago, fell in love, I'm so excited to be back. And in the meantime, also really love what's going on in Rhode Island with Josh Pazold. So let's jump to my conversation with Josh. - Well, Josh, welcome to the podcast. It's so good to have you, and we hang out in real life, but it's fun to actually be on the podcast together. - Thank you, Kerry. I love getting a chance to do this with you. - Yeah, this is great. So Josh, tell us a bit about your background and a little bit about you and how you got into a startup church and of all places, Rhode Island. We have like many faithful Rhode Island listeners, I know. (laughing) - That's awesome. Well, I'll give you the condensed version, but I kind of grew up all over the US. I was born in Texas and I lived in Missouri, Indiana, California, kind of all over. But for the eighth grade, I went to 11 different schools in the area, and yeah, it's a ton, but I definitely learned how to make friends pretty quick, which probably helped being a pastor now. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But yeah, so most of my life, I would say that I lived in Indiana, and how I kind of ended up here is most of my background is I really didn't grow up in a Christian home when I was younger. It wasn't until I was about, I think, 15 years old that we actually started going to a Christian church before that, my whole family grew up Catholic. So like we would go to Christmas and we would go to services on Christmas in Easter. So we were, I think what they call "creasters." - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But my dad got in a really severe car wreck when I was 15 and flipped his SUV eight times and they pronounced him dead on sight. But a paramedic found a pulse and revived him. And that experience kind of changed his entire life. A guy that I would say was very much about himself at that point in time, began to re-evaluate things and ended up coming to know and follow Jesus. So when I was about 15, we started to go to a Christian church and my dad was baptized and then as soon as he was baptized, he baptized me. And that's really kind of the start of my experience with the local church. So my plans was I was going to be doing sports medicine or being a personal trainer or whatever that might be. And it wasn't until-- - Yeah, it's a good plan, beats ministry. - Exactly, it definitely pays more, but in the midst of that it was my senior year of high school that God got ahold of my heart that he really called me to be into ministry. And from then I didn't really know where to go or what to really do, but I ended up going to Lincoln Christian University and got my degree in intercultural, intercultural studies. So I thought I was going to be in Mexico City or Africa and ended up getting married my senior year of college and went and worked at a small church in Beardstown, Illinois for about two and a half years. And then that's kind of where some of the story starts. Jared, who is our lead pastor at Bridgepoint Christian Church gave me a call. And I knew him back in 2009, I did an internship with him in Maine and really began to see New England for the first time and just fell in love with it. I love the people, the culture here, but my heart really broke for the region. At that time, Jared was a youth minister at a church there. And I was encountering several different individuals that were within the youth group. And all of them had a common story. What they all said is they said that they were the only one. And what they were meaning is that they were the only one in their school that they knew of that were following Jesus. Wow. There were a couple of kids from one school and a couple of kids from another. And the youth group was comprised of a bunch of young Christians trying to figure out what does it really mean to no one to love and follow Jesus kind of on their own. When you're all by yourself in your high school. Exactly. And it just broke my heart to see the absence of the body of Christ there. So God really got a hold of my heart there at that moment to say like, you're probably going to be coming back out here at some point. So two years later, Jared called and asked for me to consider being a part of starting a church in New England. And at that point in time, I didn't know anything about church planting or nearly the huge need for churches out in this area. In the Midwest, there's like one church for every, I think, 50,000 people. But in New England, there's like one for every 873,000. Wow. So the stats aren't, it's not even close. And Rhode Island is technically New England, right? Correct, yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's right. I know I drove through it once on the way to Cape Cod. Yeah, it's not very big, but there's a lot of people ahead. It didn't take a long time, and lots of bridges. Very, hence Bridge Point. I mean, that's not the reason why I call this that. Well, if it's knocked out of all the bridges, why do you call it that, theologically, like a bridge? Well, there's a couple of different things. They're like, we really believe that our mission is to bridge people back to God, that Jesus is our bridge back to him. So we want to restore people's relationship with God. We believe that Jesus is the bridge for doing that. And also, our area is full of bridges, too. So people do recognize it as well. See, that's a good story. You have an answer when people ask us, what's the connection symbol, like the logo mean? We really, we really don't know. We just, you know, we were launching a church. We had to get a logo. Three little boxes now became a circle with box, I don't know. So you can say, you know, the three things are like Father Son, Holy Spirit, but we just make it up. We really, we have no idea. So you have a much better answer. We try. It's always evolving. So Josh, you're a young leader. All right, how old are you now? I am 28, so I'll be 29 next month. Right, so you're a young leader. You're serving in an associate role of a startup church in New England that's actually done very well. Are you guys almost three now? Yes, we'll actually be three next month, too. Wow, wow. So, okay, by the time this airs, you guys will be three. That's right. And so tell us a little bit about, give us a thumbnail of the journey. You've actually reached some unchurched people. We have, yeah, God has been very, very good. Our prayer at the very beginning, before the church, you know, before we even started having services back in March of 2013, it's just that God would send people. You know, we really believe that God desired to change our community here and desired for people to know Him. So, we just began to pray at the very beginning that God would send people. And He didn't. With the last three years, we've been averaging, you know, starting this year, we've been averaging about 340 a Sunday. And God has been doing awesome, awesome stuff there. It's like you've added a hundred people every year by the service of it. Average attendance. That's really cool. Yeah, and numbers aren't everything, but they represent people, which is the biggest thing. So, it's been awesome. That's great. So, tell me what have been some of the keys you think to the fact that, you know, I don't know what it is, but I think the average church plant after five years is something like 75 people, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. I know 78% of all statistics are made up on the spot, so that would be one of those. But, you know, this is clearly, you know, it's not the zero to 10,000 story here about once in a lifetime, but, I mean, that's very effective in a heavily unchurched area, too. So, tell me, what do you think have been some of the factors that have led Bridge Point to pretty quick effectiveness in your community? The story of Bridge Point, I really believe, began with, like, Jesus' desire to see this community changed. Since we've been here, we've heard several people that have been saying that they have been praying for a church here for years. Yeah. And I really... Yeah, and it's not that there are zero churches here, but I do believe that there is a lack of some healthy churches in the area. Sure, fair enough. There has been just people praying and begging God for really this body of Christ. It's kind of like my experience with Jared when I, back in 2009, is people who were trying to pursue and follow Jesus on their own. So, I really believe that it was God's desire to really bring people that can kind of help with that. So, God not only brought us as a staff, but He really was rising up leaders within our community here. People who have been praying for a long, long time. So, really, all credit and glory definitely goes to God that He just allowed us to be part of it. So, you know, us coming here. And, you know, when we first moved here, we didn't know anyone. I knew Jared back in 2009, but we didn't have any family or friends or anyone here. But, yeah, which is unique. I mean, you basically parachuted into a region you didn't know. Well, to give you a little bit more of the background, I'll give you the condensed version. But there is an organization called Restoration House. And Restoration House has been starting churches in New England for over 20 years now. So, they are a part of the church planting, a church starting organization that Bridge Point came out of. And they have provided such a great leadership and oversight and support to be able to really help us get off of the ground. So, though we didn't know anyone, we really came into a community of people that we could really begin to do life with. So, that was a huge, huge help. As I know that there are many churches that really kind of come into an area where they don't have any support or coaching or help. We've been very fortunate in that way. But you didn't personally have a lot of relationships? No, I would say. Yeah, zero, zero. Which is unusual because sometimes if you grew up in a community or you went to college there, you've got all these friends, you can start with make 40 phone calls, send 40 texts and like have an initial meeting and you start from there. But you guys really cold called the community. Yeah, yeah, and that was definitely a learning curve for us. Tell me, let's go there, let's go there. What, how did you do that? Like, how did you start friendships? How did you build relationships? How did you, how did you do that? Yeah, so my wife and I and the rest of the staff, we moved here about six or seven months before we started having services. So now if we want to try to connect with people and build relationships in a church context, a lot of times you connect with the people who are coming to your services. Right. But before that, there was no nothing. No services and no friends, so what'd you do? Exactly, so we met at Panera Bread for six or seven months is our office when we first started. And we met all of the staff there. We built friendships with them there. We went to the gym and started connecting with people there. We had events in our neighborhoods. We actually met our neighbors, isn't that crazy? Wow, how about that? Yeah, so we just started to really, I would say that I didn't have a clue about what it really meant to make disciples before I started to have to teach it to other people. And when I first moved here, when there wasn't a church, we were howling out to see like, what does it mean for us to make disciples when it's not dependent upon a service, when it's not dependent upon a building, when it's not dependent upon individuals coming to us. And what we really found out is making disciples of Jesus happens best in the context of a relationship. And relationships take time and intentionality. So we just really began to start to build relationships with anyone that we were connecting with, anyone that we were meeting. And it took us having to have another environment to go to. So we began to join gyms. We began to join soccer shape, right? So you joined clubs, you joined a gym. We did. And then of course we had several different events and things of that sort to really kind of make bridge points presence known. So I believe it was a month or two before the church even launched. We probably had like eight events within the matter of like two months. Just as a way for everyone to know like, we're here, we're not here to take, but we're here because we care. Like we really wanted to be known as a church and we came on in that was giving to the community instead of taking from it. - That's good, good, good, good. So what kind of events did you run? And how did you get people there? - Yeah. So one of the very first events that we did are you asking before the church launched? - Yeah, yeah, before the church launched. This is just interesting. - Yeah. So one of the things that we did is we went to people, we went to where people were already. - Smart. - Yeah, so we went to where people were already at. One of the things we did is we went to a local ice skating rink. Can we pass out free hot chocolate and coffee to people? Just doing something kind. A lot of questions is why are you doing this and how much do we have to pay you? - Right, right. - And it was just we just do this because we care. No strings attached to it. So we did that. We had what we called party in the park. So we threw a party in one of our local parks and we had free bounce houses and food and a number of different things of that sort. - And you got some of the seed funding from the church planting organization and the support that you raised? - Yes, we did that. So myself and the other staff members, before we moved on out, we had to raise our salary to live off of for four years. And then we also raised some money on top of that in order to do things like this. And then the church planting organization also raises funds to be able to allow churches to start off right, to be able to have events like this and to build up costs, start up costs. - That's great. Okay, a couple of other things you did before you launched. Those are great ideas. - Yeah, so we not only were involved inside of the community by just what we call kindness projects. So just doing kind of things for them. There is a local East Providence Rec Center, local recreation center that we did renovations on. So like we re-did their entire, like we painted walls. We re-did piping. We had a new, like their new weight room gym area. We built shelves just as, and what was awesome about it is that we invited the community to be a part of it with us. So instead of us just doing it with them, we said, "I'm gonna do this with us." - Wow, and then how did you like, did you advertise about that? It was just the friendships you were making at coffee shops and neighborhoods that you're like, "Hey, come out with us this Saturday and build some shelves." - It was both. - Okay. - We did a little bit of advertisement. We did do some mailers. We did door hangers, we had flyers. We had relationships with people. Whatever organization we work with, a lot of times we'll ask who do you have a connection with? 'Cause the people who are already involved there, they're the ones that are gonna wanna be a part of it most. So the people who've been wanting to paint that wall for the last 10 years, like get them involved with it. And then they were able to build relationships with those who know and love and follow Jesus. - Wow, and how many of those people who are involved in those initial events would have been followers of Jesus? Minority, majority? - I would say a minority. - Yeah, yeah. - I would say the vast majority weren't knowing and following Jesus at that point. And that's been one of the things that we just loved seeing is God drawing people to himself and us just having the privilege of trying to walk with them through hurt. We've seen a lot of people that have just been very much hurt by the local church. So a lot of for them it's been trying to help them to begin to trust someone who follows Jesus again. And that's been really hard for some and much easier for others. So people are messy, man, but it is so good. - So yeah, talk about that. What was the perception of the church when you got to Rhode Island? Like not your church, but the church. Were people like totally out the radar screen or was it like, yeah, we really don't need church. There's a reason we don't go. Or were people just curious? Like they're so post-Christian that it's like, oh, church, what is that? - Yeah, I would say it was a little bit of a mix of both. There were individuals that we met that they had never been a part of a church before in their entire life. So if they weren't bitter about it, they weren't upset. They weren't even opposed to what we believe they just didn't know. So it was something that was very new to them, that relationships for them, getting to know me, caused, and other individuals they were connecting with too, caused them to want to consider, okay, you followed Jesus and you talk about them, tell me about them. But for other ones too, there were some that were really, really hurt by the church. But one of the things that we did before we even started having services, we went and visited several different churches, not to compare, but actually our hope is that we're not the only church here. So we understand that if someone doesn't connect with us, we want to send them to other places because this isn't a competition. We want everyone to know and love and follow Christ. But when we were visiting churches, I'll be honest, like it broke my heart. 'Cause some of the things that I heard them saying and preaching wasn't the gospel. And I knew that I was a first time guest. And as I was coming in, I was sitting with someone else who was their first, their first time there too. And I was hearing some of the judgment that was coming and the things that didn't have anything to do with Jesus. I wondered if they were to ever consider coming to another service anywhere ever again. So it felt like we couldn't start soon. - So they were hurt by specific actions against them of their family or abuse or just like, hey, we went to church, it was a terrible experience. - I think it was both. We've had individuals that have been a part of churches before that the leadership just said and really did some knuckle-headed things that really hurt people. And I think for others listening too, that it's not just about a certain region. It's not all of us as leaders can fall into a point where leadership becomes more about us than Christ, that it becomes more about what we want and what we need rather than a leadership being about us having a position to serve other people. - That's so true. So let me ask you 'cause you started the church very, very relationally. You parachute into a community, you get to know people, you build friendships, you join a gym, and that's awesome when it's 25 people. You can have great friendships, have everyone over for dinner, then it's 50, then it's 100, then it's 200, then it's 300, how has that been challenging or has that been challenging for you as the church has grown? Like what happens if I show up for the first time last month? Now all of a sudden there's not 20 people, there's almost 300, like you're past that intimacy mark already. - Yeah, one of the things that's been really, really cool is that since we started from nothing, we got to create what the DNA of the church was. And it's always been relational in nature. It's what people who have never been in a church before began to experience and that's all that they really knew. So one of the things that we began doing is we started to meet with people on a regular basis and investing into them and spending time with them and going out for coffee. So as people as we did that with them and as they saw that they went, this is what Christians do, they do life together. So what happens is a lot of that has happened somewhat organically that people have begun to keep on investing into people and when we spend time with them, they said, well, I should start spending time with other people and helping them know when love and follow Jesus too. - So how do you avoid the expectation that Josh, you and the other staff are gonna be doing all that work yourself personally? - Yeah, our groups pay a play a huge role in that. Even before the church launched, we had a group that was meeting and that group turned into two groups and then to three groups before the church even launched. So what happens is that we're always thinking about, like how do you make room for more? - Right. - And casting that vision at the very beginning helped us to know that it's not that relationships with each other stops, the family just gets bigger. And I think that, yeah, it's been a huge, huge joy 'cause everyone knows what it's like to be a part of a family and when your family gets added, you don't sometimes feel like, "Oh, I'm not gonna get the time that I want." It's, man, I really love this new person that gets to be a part of it now. So the family has just gotten bigger and not being dependent upon us. One of our other prayers has been at the very beginning is not only that God would send people, 'cause that God would send help. - Yeah. - That has been a huge prayer. It's like God sent people, but now God send help for us to care for them. - What does help look like? - Yeah, really I would say is that leaders that have a heart for people to help them to know Jesus more. And if I can condense that even more is like, our mission as a church is we wanna make disciples of Jesus in relationships. So our help is if people would be sold out to that and wanna be a part of it. So if they're sold out to the mission of helping people to become a disciple of Jesus, and understand that the cost of that is to actually be in relationships with people, which is messy and dirty and also such a huge blessing, then they grow to love it. And then it's not dependent upon us as leaders because they've tasted it and they want more of it. - Right, that's good. And how's that been working fairly well? - Yeah, yeah, God has been doing some awesome stuff there. Of course, there is a learning curve for all of us because we're all on a journey, none of us have figured out what does it fully mean to be the best disciple of Jesus? So one of the biggest things that I think was a part of the DNA is us beginning by trying to be really transparent. I think when leaders are transparent, it allows others that are around them to have authentic relationships too. So it's not that we're all perfect Christians, we just own our flaws and we're willing to stick in it with each other. - That's good. - So being transparent and honest as leaders has, I think caused the others to see that and to be okay with opening up with their mess, that someone who comes for the very first time, it's not that we're airing all of our baggage, but we invite them into a relationships and you're transparent with them too. And they go, this is really a place that I can be reeling. - Yeah, that's true. So you're the connections pastor and the associate pastor. - Connections and outreach. - And outreach, yeah. - Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So connections and outreach, and that pretty much describes your approach. - Somewhat, yeah. - Seems to be working, seems to be working. What are some of the biggest obstacles you've encountered in planning a church, Josh? - Yeah, I would say leadership is one of the biggest ones 'cause as we desire to create more relational environments for that, leaders are the one who create and sustain a relational culture. And without that, the culture is gonna change. So we've just been praying, not that God would raise up more and more leaders there. And that's been probably our biggest struggle. - Yeah, is that staff leaders who just volunteer leaders are all of the above? - All of the above, but primarily, we do not rely primarily, I think, with on staff leadership. We have a lot of volunteer leaders. So with on the first impressions team, for example, the first impressions teams comprise of about 75, 76 people. And there's four sub teams that are a part of that. And each one has one to two, if not four team leads, that their role is to care for them and to coach them. - Gotcha. - So what's amazing with that is that with all the relational environments is all of our leaders, like they're really becoming the pastors of their people. - That sounds good, that sounds good. Josh, for you as a young leader, tell me, what have been some of the biggest challenges you've faced in these first few years of leadership in a startup church? - Yeah, well, my guess is for a lot of really young leaders is that they kind of start off being within a youth ministry context. - Sure. - So for me, that's kind of where I came from. So I was primarily leading some adults. I was primarily leading a lot of kids. That was my mindset and thought. So when I moved here, started to lead adults that are two, three times my age. And probably dealt with a lot of feelings of being inadequate, how do I help someone to be and to follow Jesus, who's done it for 30 years longer than I have. So really struggling with that. But the other part that I think is probably the biggest thing is there was a period of time where I began to fall in love more with making disciples than being a disciple. That as I spent time with God, the things that I read had more to do with leadership, it had more to do with how to be used by him. And so a lot of my heart and focus, it was a subtle heart, heart, heart, heart change where a lot of the focus was me focusing more upon what does it mean to really be used by God rather than focusing upon becoming more like him. - Wow. So how did you overcome those? Like how did you decide, all right, I'm leading people who could be my parent's age? How did you tackle that? - One of the things that I did is I really just had to realize is that I had something to offer them. That if our goal is to help people to pursue Jesus and to really pursue a heart like is, then if I'm doing that, then I can help them do that too. That if I can draw closer to Jesus, then I can just simply tell them how I'm doing that. I can't lead someone where I'm not going. - That's a good point. - And that's really not dependent upon age. That's really not even dependent fully upon how long I've been doing that. It's simply me saying, I'm going there, would you like to come with me? - Yeah. And how did you catch your heart to know that a more in love with leadership maybe than I am with Jesus right now in the second? - How did you get the self-awareness to sort of snap out of that? - Yeah, several things. As one of me being self-aware of that, is you begin to realize like, what do you get the most excited about? - Oh yeah. - What started turning my heart? What did I want to spend my time doing more? What was my conversations like with people? Were they more talking about who Jesus is and the joy that I was seeing in seeing people come to him? Or was it more about the new program? Was it more about the new talk you were giving? Was it more about the new thing that I was creating? And what happened with that is, as I was speaking, and I was saying that, if I were to be really honest, one of our lead pastor, Jared, in the midst of us meeting, we meet every other week. He said, he just brought that up and said, "Josh, I think that this is a subtle heart change, but I think that you might be falling more in love with kind of making disciples and being a disciple." And what I love about that is it, we grew a point in our relationship as a staff that we're able to have honest conversations when we see something off. So it started with some of that, me noticing that in my own heart. And a part of that now is me beginning to go to God with that. It's one thing to hear from someone else, and it's another thing. - Yeah, yeah. - God, like is this true? And it wasn't that I think that I was being sinful, but I wanted to spend more time with Jesus in the classroom and less time with him than the cough-free shop. That's the best way that I can kind of explain it, is that, so last week, I was praying, and I was spending some time with God. And I wanted to start to work on something different. And my question to him is like, okay, God, like I'm feeling like I wanna spend less time with you. And I was like, why is that? And I really do feel like God kind of said, it's because I bore you. And that just brought me to my knees in that moment. I'm like, okay, God, like keep on talking here. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, clearly there's a problem with the picture, but that's a really honest, and that's great self-awareness. - Yeah, so I felt like I'm like, okay, God, like what else is going on here? And I felt like God was kind of saying, you've lost some of your awe of me. - Yeah. - And so in that process, I realized that I need to continue to draw closer to him. That I need to do things in my life, spend some time in my life that is reminding me of how great and how good God is, not me. - So Josh, a couple of years ago, that's good stuff. You and I connected in sort of an informal mentoring relationship, and I know I get lots of requests and people are like, hey, can you mentor me? First of all, I think I'm the world's worst mentor, just for record sake, I don't think I'm very good at it. - I don't agree with that, but go on. - Well, that's how I feel. But we got connected, it wasn't a friend, it was just you randomly reached out, didn't you? Or was it a friend? - No, it was, I randomly reached out to you. - Yeah, yeah, that's right, and you hit me on a good day. 'Cause unfortunately, I've had to say no numerous times, and I know there are listeners going, why didn't I hit you on that day? It's, trust me, I'm a terrible mentor, but-- - You had mentioned a lot of it had to do with timing, that you had just stopped being in one relationship, in a mentoring type of-- - Yeah, mentoring, let's clarify that for a moment. That's right, hey, honey, no, there was only one relationship, Tony, okay. But this is like a different, this is like a mentoring relationship, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's right, yeah. And so I kinda had space, it's sort of Andy Stanley's do for one what you wish you could do for everyone, or what you do through your podcast, or do through your blog, or whatever. But I always try, in the same way that in my own community, I have usually a roster of three or four guys, 'cause I only meet one-on-one, generally with men, just for boundary reasons, that are just unchurched or going through a hard time in their life, their marriage is falling apart, or their life isn't in a good place, so I'll have breakfast with, right? Or they're curious about Jesus, and they have questions about Jesus, and I always have spots for that, and then I try to keep one or two open, just for people where we can Skype, and we can chat, and we can text, and we can talk about it, and I wish I could do it for a lot more, but I just can't, and so we kinda connected, so we thought we'd talk a little bit about that too, about that whole deal. So you can give me my report card, and tell me where I'm failing, and so on. What do you think has worked well in the relationship? Why would you even reach out for a mentor, and all that? Tell me about that. - Yeah, so I'll kinda go through the gamut of all of that. I think one of the things worked really well with our relationship or mentorship, I keep on saying relationships, sorry. - Yeah, that's all right, sorry. Hey, you've been to the house, you and Katie, you've been to the house, you know Tony, so she knows this all cool. - That's right, and I've eaten your chocolate-covered almonds. - Oh yeah, are they not disastrous? - They're amazing, and they don't have 'em in the US. The ones here are not the same, but that's neither here. - I think we went through a massive bag of President's Choice chocolate-covered almonds when you and Katie were up. - That's massive, and I've been envious ever since, 'cause you sometimes talk about having more. - I gotta send you one. (laughing) - That's right, Josh. - But I think one of the things that's worked really, really well is that we've known our individual roles, that we're not coming in blindsided by it, like we know what the expectations are. And I think that when you define that and understand that, it really kinda helps at a good stage for what type of the relationship is going to be like. And my guess is not every mentoring relationship is the exact same, but ours have worked out because we've had a conversation about it, about what is expected of both of us. - Well, that's right, and we've had to do a mid-course correction or two. Part of it is because I think I'm a terrible mentor, I don't wanna really have to, and this may be just, this may be bad, I may get to heaven one day and God will say, "Why are you such an idiot?" But I don't wanna have to prepare for the mentoring sessions. It's like, I don't wanna have to, and you say, "Hey, can I send you some questions?" We tried that for a little while, and I felt like I had to do homework. And then that just about killed me 'cause I have a lot of homework in my life. You know what I mean? And I got a study for Sunday, I gotta write a blog post to a podcast, speaking somewhere, I'm leading a meeting at the church. And so when I do this sort of on my own time, on my own dime, I'm like, "I don't wanna have to prepare for it." Now, is that it worked okay without that? 'Cause I feel like that's selfish. But then again, this is not carry school of mentoring where you pay a $5,000 tuition and I better deliver either, right? - Yeah, here's one of the things that I've kind of realized is I think there's a lot of times where, it really depends on why someone is seeking out a mentor. Most people, myself included in the past, a lot of times I've sought out mentors as a source of affirmation to help me feel better about myself, to give a pat on the back type of thing. - Gotcha. - And I realized that God is the only one that can really fill that place in your life. It can never be a mentor. Mentors are human, they're gonna end up saying and doing things that might not be helpful or what God can really give you. - Right. - But God really has to fill that place. So for us, mentors with you and me is I think that you have an ability to see things that I'm missing. And when we have a conversation, when there's a dialogue taking place, you can kind of pick out areas in the midst of us talking that I need to pay attention to. - Tell like Jared did for that whole like, hey, are you getting more excited about leadership than you're about Jesus? Being a disciple rather than making disciples, rather than being a disciple. - Yeah, and you know, what I appreciate about the way you've approached it is you always come prepared. You always have questions, you'll often email me, you know, a day to five days in advance, hey, here's what I wanna talk about. Usually I glance at the questions, but it's mostly like, here's our 45 minutes or hour of time, usually about once a month on average, although it gets bounced around a bit with schedule. But, you know, and then we kind of figure out what the real issue is in the midst of a real time conversation. And that works really well for me because it's the investment of the hour and obviously the friendship and the relationship. But does that kind of, you can be honest, does that provide the kind of value you were hoping to get out of a mentoring relationship? - Yeah, yeah, honestly. I think that there's been other mentoring relationships I had before in the past or was considering. And I think that you have to somewhat mesh well. There has to be a friendship and a relationship there. Whenever there is a mentee, I'm not really sure what to call me, but if there's a mentee that's seeking to get out of their relationship and never care for the mentors, it's never gonna work out. - Yeah, and you're good at that. You asked me, how are you doing? What can I pray for, you know, and all that? But I think for me, and this is for people, like I have mentors as well. Like I also have mentors, I have people I call. And often I'm there to like pick their brain. It's just like, I need your insight. I had that yesterday, I was in a Skype call with a couple of peers and a boss from North Point World. And we're just looking at, you know, some personnel issues right now. And I'm like, guys, I just need you to tell me what I already know. And then I ran through the scenario and they're like, yup, that's right. And I'm like, okay, four out of four people said, do this, that's probably the right move. Like, and so that's really good. And, you know, hopefully the mentors are the people who can see what you can't see because you're lost in the weeds. - Yeah, I agree. - So what tips would you have for people who are looking to find a mentor or who in a mentoring relationship, but like to get the most out of it? What gives you the most out of this relationship? - Yeah, well, first what I would say is if you're looking for a mentor, don't ask Harry, but a second. - Don't, bad idea. No, not because you're not good, but because you're taken. - Yeah, that's right, that's right. Well, part of the reason and what I say to people too is like, this podcast is like my mentoring thing. And the blogging I do, I just sent a Facebook message out to somebody today, it's like, hey, can I send you an email list of questions? And I'm like, I just, my assistant is off for 10 days and I'm on trips. And I'm like, I just don't have the bandwidth, but I did just write a book. And I do offer all this free stuff on my blog, hopefully that can help in the meantime. You just, you can't always do it personally. - Yeah. - I wish I could. - Yeah, so one of the things that I would say is that as someone is looking for a mentor, I have a friend named Andrew Biel, and one of the things that he wrote on his Facebook the other day was a great quote. I don't know if he said it or someone else said it, is that he said to listen to people who are listening to Jesus. - Ooh, that's good. - It's great, it's awesome. And whenever you consider who you want to speak into your life, probably in some areas that you're not gonna allow other people to do that with, make sure that they're listening to God. And what I've loved is that through our conversation and relationship and even through your writing and all of those things, I've been able to see your heart. And most of our conversations has, I think, more to do with the heart than even strategy. It always ends up leading to the hard cuts where everything else flows from. - It is for me, that's where all my problems come from and all the good things come from, it's my heart. Yeah. - Yeah, so I would say like, find someone that is listening to Jesus that they have evidences of that. Also, I would say, begin to list out like what you're actually needing from there, what you're looking for in a mentor. 'Cause I think different relationships are different. You might actually might need someone to ask you questions. That might be someone that is in your need area. But then, you might just have like an area of your life that you wanna focus on. No mentor is gonna get everything right. So you might need someone just to mentor you in the areas of your marriage. And that's all you talk about. So you ask them, will you help me in my relationship with my wife? I wanna be a really great husband and you are an excellent one. I would also, just, this is a little bit different. - Yeah. - A little bit of a hypocrite here, but I would say, begin to look within, begin to look local than rather someone who lives really, really far. Now, what I mean by this is, I would say within the last several months, Jared, who is our lead pastor, I think allowed him to be more a mentor in my life than I had before in the past. And my guess is that there's a lot of young leaders that are probably listening to this, that are missing what God wants to say to them through those that are already leading them. So spend some time investing into those relationships really, really well. - I've got a little piece of mentor advice. I've never told a story publicly. - Oh, gosh. - Yeah, here we go. I don't think I've told this to you, Josh, but anyway, so years ago now, like probably seven, eight years ago, when we first got connected with North Point, I had sent an email to Andy Stanley's office and said, "Hey, would you review my sermons?" Andy graciously said, "Yes." Now, here's the rest of the story. Now, if you know Andy, you know how rare that is. I mean, I think I have time pressure, not even close to what he has to deal with. I was too chicken to send him a message. I was too scared. I really was. I had the chance to be personally mentored by Andy. And then when I finally got around to it, that window had closed. And I've mentioned it to him since then. And I mean, he's graciously agreed to be back on my podcast. You know, the whole day. I mean, so we're friends and we're good, but I'm like, that was my own, and I'm just saying this to help leaders. That was 100% my insecurity at the time. That was 100% my lost opportunity. If you get, first of all, don't be afraid to ask because you never know who will say yes. And you're right, I am booked right now. I can't do it anymore right now. But don't be afraid to ask. And secondly, if someone says yes, figure out how you can utilize that and don't let your insecurity, I find sometimes in these conversations. And I've been there. I say this just 'cause I've been there, you know, there's almost a need to explain yourself and improve yourself to the leader. Like, here's what I've done or here's what. And I guess I'm just old enough to maybe have gotten through some of that or past some of that. And now it's like, I gotta go with some really good questions. I've gotta show up prepared. And I have to be prepared just to make the best use of that leader's time. And that's true, whether it's a guy down the street or a business person in your church or, you know, whether it's Andy Stanley. So anyway, I just share that. That's my deep dark mentoring failure in a massive way. - But we learn from it, which is good. - We do, we do. And so, you know, I've got the opportunity for other people who so graciously speak into my life. I try never to squander their time and I try to never let my insecurity get in the way anymore. Even though sometimes it's still there, honestly. - Yeah. - I still get nervous when I talk to certain people, you know? - Yeah, yeah. And as you kind of mentioned, like, whenever you see the other person that is mentoring you as a person that has their own insecurities and flaws, then they don't become the end all be all. They become a voice in your life and not only the voice, you know? - That's it. - Exactly, right? And I learned from you. I mean, I admire your zeal. I love that, like, wow, getting involved in your community. I love how you're trying to be a good husband. Like, I look at this stuff in your life and it's really inspiring. So the learning is always cross learning. - What do you wish would be different? Let me just ask you. This is like a cold, didn't send you this question question. Is there anything you wish would be different? You can say. - What do I wish would be different? - 'Cause you either did, you even did the big thing of you and Katie came up and spent a weekend with Tony and I here at our house and stayed at our house and went to our church and how many it was fun. - That was, I, so here's a tip is I would say, is that if you have a long distance mentorship, I would suggest scheduling, like maybe once a year going and seeing that person. I really think that it helps in the relationship because then you're able to see them in their element. You're able to ask more questions. You're able to have fun together. It's not even dependent upon the questions that you ask or anything of that sort. So you get to see someone's heart. - It's funny and you get to connect with someone on a different way. I coach some guys in sort of a leadership capacity in one of the church networks I'm in. And I feel like where I visited the person, I just have a deeper connection. And then I put together a personal advisory board a few months ago, two out of three people on my personal advisory board, very informal, just sort of formal, informal mentors for me, have been to my house and eating at my table and we've hung out here and they understand my context. My goal is to get the third up here this year. Just because when they've been at my house, it's like, okay, now you know what I'm talking about. Now you know my context, now you know where I live. And you're better able to speak into this. So I guess this means I have to go to Rhode Island this year, right? - We would love to have you. - That'd be fun. - That'd be fun. - We would love it. So one of the things I would say that I wish was different, if you wanted to add with that. And I think that maybe others can learn from it too, so it has nothing to do with you and more to do with me, is a lot of times you value the conversation and the answers. But what happens is, I don't always really go back to them the next time that we talk. There's a part where I have to say, this is how it went, this is what I tried, this is what worked, what didn't work. Now we've done through some of that as we talked about preaching and speaking and doing that type of stuff. - Yeah, yeah. - But really having a chance to really put into practice a lot we said and maybe you even asking, how did it go? - You know what, you're so right. And there's another guy that I skyped with about once a month and he'll be on the podcast this year too, either depending on when all this airs, he'll be on just before, just after. His name's Martin Dalind, he's from Norway. And he was more of like, help me get through some growth barriers and navigate being a senior leader. And in that episode on how to break the 200 barrier, like, oh my goodness, like every call was, okay, I just did what you said, now what's the next step? That is so rewarding for a mentor. That is like, whoa, I didn't just give you advice, but you did it, like are you kidding me? And I know when Reggie and I, Reggie and Joiner, Reggie Joiner and I connected over a decade ago now, that was one of the things he kept saying is like, I just came in and I told you what to do and then you went and did it and asked me for more. And I realized now, a decade later, why that was so valuable. Because he probably gave that advice a thousand times and nobody did anything with it. And when you do that, you tend to get called back. You tend, the mentor then says, hey, let's do this for a few more months and let's do this for another year or whatever. But when there's not a lot of progress, then, and I'm not saying that's been the case with you at all, but like where you can't connect the dots as a mentor, that becomes more demotivating. - Yeah, exactly. So I think there's a lot of times even in our relationships and others too, where we say, like we assume that they knew that you did it. But mentors want to hear the results of what took place. - Yeah, and I got one of my mentors. You know, David McDaniel, episode 47 on this podcast, like David's been speaking into my life for years now, almost a decade. And there have been times where I'll be on a call with him or we're texting and I'm just like, that question you asked me back in 2012. I'll never forget it. And this is how I'm processing it right now. And here's the difference it's making in my leadership and here are the action steps I'm gonna take as a result. And, you know, he's actually a guy who's on my personal advisory board. And when I ask him to come back on, I'm like, hey, you can talk to Laura, you can pray about this. He's like, don't need to, I'm on like, oh, okay. But I think it's because I actually listen to what he's saying and, you know, often he can just see stuff that I'm missing. And then it's my job as the mentee to put that into practice. - Correct. - Okay, well that was good. That was really, really good. Josh, listen, people, this time flew by. People are gonna wanna know more. I think that was super helpful. We never talked on this podcast about parachuting into a community and starting a church. And we haven't really dealt with mentorship as in depth. So I think you helped a lot of leaders today. Thank you. - Great, go ahead. People wanna connect with you and know a little bit more. Tell me a little bit about where they can find you online. - Yeah, they can find me at youngchurchleaders.org, or they can find us at Bridge Point Christian Church. - In Rhode Island. And you know what I love about the youngchurchleaders.org thing? Is that something you and I talked about? We went back and forth and we had different ideas. And I even gave you some feedback that maybe at first stung a little bit, didn't it? - It did, it did, but I listened. - 'Cause I'm a bad mentor. - You're not, you gotta speak truth if you see it. Don't have to always agree with it, but-- - I felt bad 'cause I thought, maybe I hurt your feelings. But you know, sometimes that's really good stuff. When, you know, then again, when Andy came back and said, "No, this is a season where I can't do it." It's kind of like, I'm, you know, that hurt, but it was me, man, it was all on me. So that's good. I'm excited to see this launch. And it will have just launched by the time we air this podcast. So that's gonna be great. So youngchurchleaders.org, make sure you check out Josh and all the links are in the show notes. So you can check it out there at carrynewhough.com. Josh, thanks so much, man. - Thank you, appreciate it. - Well, I just hope that was super encouraging to all of you, first of all, young leaders and secondly, church planters, man. It's just great to see a guy slugging it out in the trenches and doing such a great job. Josh, by the way, wrote a post. You can find it in the show notes, but also it links back to his new blog too. Just on eight things he's learned while I've mentored him. And so I thought it was a pretty, you know, honest post. And so I've got it in the show notes today. You can also read what Josh is writing by just heading over to youngchurchleaders.org. That's his blog, youngchurchleaders with an S.org. And make sure you jump on over there and give a shout out to Josh and let him know he's doing an awesome job. So, hey, that's it for this week. Next week we're back with Martin Dalind. He is from Norway. I know we also have European listeners. This seems to be very international, isn't it? I don't know what it is. It's very international this month. And Martin's become a good friend and has done something that very few church leaders do. He has successfully figured out how to manage his time, manage his life, manage his calendar under very difficult circumstances to grow his church past the 200 barrier after he took over, after there were problems in the church. I mean, it's just a fascinating story. And he's done it so well and he's figured out how to more time for his family and the whole deal. And I've kinda coached him personally through that whole process, having lived through it myself. So, it's gonna be a great conversation for all of you trying to figure out how on earth can our church get any bigger without me like losing my mind. Martin's done it. And he's done it in Norway of all places. Just a super guy, you're gonna love it. That's next week. If you subscribe now, you're not gonna miss a beat. You can do that on iTunes, Stitcher, Tune in Radio. And remember, check out lastingimpactbook.com. Thanks so much for everything and we'll catch ya next Tuesday. I hope this time has helped you lead like never before. - You've been listening to the Carry New Hough Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)