The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 085 – Whit George on How to Work with Family in Ministry, Taking Over Leadership, and Learning How to Lead in A Brand New Role
[MUSIC] >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal, to help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. >> Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 85 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. And man, what a fun month it has been. Has this not been incredible? I mean, a couple weeks ago to actually hit the 1 million download mark. Just craziness. It was so much fun to celebrate. It was great getting you some free coffee and some free copies of something that actually releases this week. I'm going to tell you all about in just a minute. In the meantime, you're going to love our guest today. His name is Whit George. A lot of you know him, man. I've got to tell you, I've heard for years people are like, do you know about the seats conference at church on the move? And if you follow those kinds of things, I know you're already a fan. Well, Whit has been there. He's sort of the genius behind that. And the story that God has written through that church is amazing. They've been through a lot of transition. Whit's dad founded the church, is still the senior pastor. And they're in the process of going through a rather slow but wise transition into a new generation of leadership. So Whit is going to be taking over the lead pastor role from his dad. We talk all about that. We talk about some of the change they've undergone and creativity and the whole deal. So I think you're going to love it. Whit is just a fantastic guy. And apparently there is no seeds conference this year, but there will be again in 2017. And rumor has it, I might be able to be there, which would be an awful lot of fun. And now for the big news. As you know, six months ago, I released lasting impact. Seven powerful conversations that can help your church grow. And man, I can't believe it. So many of you already have a copy of that book and you've asked for more. One more is here. This is the week that lasting impact team edition releases. What is a team edition? It is eight videos you can plug and play at your church. I took some time a few months ago, film some of my absolute favorite insights from the book, as well as some content that isn't in the book. And framed it in such a way that if you're doing this as a team study with your elders, with your staff, with your leadership team, with key volunteers, or just with a small group of leaders, what you can do is just plug and play. Plug and play the video, and then you have a companion for the relevant chapter in the book. So there are seven conversations in the book about why churches aren't growing faster, why people are attending less often, why millennials are walking away from the church, how to keep your church healthy, how to engage high capacity volunteers, and even how to navigate change. All of that is in the book. And there's discussion questions already in the book, but you know how it is sometimes when you get together with a group that was supposed to have studied a book chapter and half of them have read it and half of them haven't, you can't remember the key points. Anyway, that's all done. So rather than flying all the way to your church, you can just pick up the team edition and I will actually intro the subject, give it my best shot and open it wide open for your team to discuss. So the lasting impact team edition is available. You can find out everything you need to know about it at lastingimpactbook.com. Just go to lasting impact book. We'll have that link in the show notes. And you can order your copy today. If you're at Orange Conference this week or at rethink leadership, where I will be, this weekend, Atlanta, you can actually pick up a physical copy. You can pick up the team edition only at the Orange Conference. And other than that, you can just go to lasting impactbook.com and you can order your copy. So I'm super excited about that. You can also get book bundles. We're bundling it, I think at least a few weeks in advance. I always record these things in advance. We're planning on five, 10 and 20 book bundles that will give you some savings. And now the best part, if you order lasting impact team edition now, you will get access to a private Facebook group. That's right. It's going to be one that I dive into from time to time over the summer. In fact, I'm going to do a series of Q and A's to that private Facebook group during the summer, but best of all, you're going to have each other because sometimes as a leader, you feel totally alone while you're not alone. The only way you can get into this Facebook group is if you buy the team edition of lasting impact. So what you can do when you sign up, all the details are at lasting impactbook.com. Make sure you join the private Facebook group. It'll be a chance for you to interact with other leaders who are navigating the same issues you are. And then I'm going to jump in a little bit later on and answer your questions directly. So it's going to be great. And here's the catch. That private Facebook group is only open until May 31st. So if you were listening to this before May 31st, 2016, you can still get in. And in the meantime, act now. So you make sure you get access to that. If you've ever been in sort of a professional forum where you've got access to other leaders who are navigating the same issues you are, I joined actually a podcaster's private Facebook group. And of course, when I launched this podcast, it was invaluable to me. And so we just wanted to do that for you. It's a way of connecting with each other. And then even we'll connect a little bit. So for all of you who've been waiting and maybe for those of you who have never checked out lasting impact, seven powerful conversations that will help your church grow, you can check it all out. It's got a whole new dimension starting now at lasting impact book.com. So anyway, that's a lot of fun news. But in the meantime, I'm so excited to bring you my conversation with Whit George. And here it is. Well, Whit or Whitney, welcome to the podcast. We're just talking about that, right? We go by Whit and by Whitney. Yeah, my parents told me both. My wife calls me both. Actually, my wife calls me Whitney when I'm in trouble. So, okay, generally probably wet more than Whitney, but I'm good with either. Okay. Well, Whitney George, welcome to the podcast. It's so, so good to have you. And you and I connected through a mutual friend, Josh Gagnon, back in September of last year, I think, and really hit it off. And I'm like, I'd heard about you in church on the move. And it's like, we got to connect. And you'd done a revival actually last summer, didn't you? Where you shared some of the stuff I'd written or whatever? Yeah. I shared some stuff from your blog about why people were attending church less often and really the focus of your blog was about engagement. And what I wanted to talk to our church about was that the, that just the power of engagement, that it's more about engagement than it is about attendance. And so yeah, your blog was, was big for our church. Oh, that's cool. That's, you know, you never know what happens. I know there's a lot of writers and other podcasters who listen to this. And that's really the fun part of the ministry is, you know, sometimes you're really passionate about a post and you post it and it does nothing. And then there are other posts that you're, you know, just have a big impact. I remember that post. I think it was, I know that post will link to it in the show notes about 10 reasons that people are attending church less often. Yep. And man, that post just took off and it's, it's shaped a lot of leaders thinking into the future. And as you know, when you create something because you're very creative, that's both humbling and, and also deeply surprising when it actually helps people. Yeah, absolutely. I, I think of creativity a lot as a gift and, and you work so hard on it. And then you finally, you never really finished. You, you just run into a deadline and then you give it and, and, and to see reactions and to see how people take it. And once, you know, once you're done with it and it goes beyond you, it really stops being yours anymore. It becomes like the communities. It becomes everybody's all, all at once. And it's really cool to see how people take it and use it and turn it and twist it. And I just wanted to say as we get started with this, that what you have done with your, I'm a podcast listener from the first, from the very first episode with Andy Stan, you go back to episode one, I started there. Yeah, I, I just heard of, I didn't even know who you were. I, I saw, man, Andy Stanley's, and I'm just like, Hey, Andy Stanley, I'll listen. And so, so I jumped on and I've been listening ever since and reading your blog. And what you have done has, has greatly impacted church on the move. And I'm not just saying that because I'm on the show. So it's kind of freaky even just to be having this conversation. Cause I mean, I, I'm a regular listener. Like I listen all the time. Well, that first of all, thank you for sharing that. And secondly, you know, that's all God. But I got to tell you, is it true that the seeds conference is taking a little sabbatical? Is that true? It is. Yeah. We decided. Cause that's what I had, I had actually flagged. I heard such a raving reviews about the last seed conference. I'm like, I'm going. Wow. And now now there's nothing to go to. But we'll, we'll, we'll have to get it together. It works out. We're going to do it. We are bringing it back and we'll bring it back next year. And, um, and you were one of the people that we wanted to have come speak. So are you serious? Yeah, absolutely. Can't help. That's in like 2017. Yeah. So I mean, I, we've not even talked about this, but here. No, we have not. No, this isn't staged. Okay. Let me check my calendar. I'm available. Yeah. I'm available. We would love that. Yeah. Oh man, I would, I would love to. I've just heard crazy stuff. Uh, I don't know that, you know, Chris Vashay or not. Yeah. He's been out a few times. Yeah. Vashay is a good friend of mine. Yeah. He'll be on the podcast at some point, a fellow Canadian. Yes. Chris from Canada for all of you social media types. And he was raving about it. Other people have raved about it. I'm like, that's it. I'm going. And then you told me it's not there. But now it's back and I get to go. That's fantastic. Yeah. We were taking a year off just just, you know, you get to a season where it's like, man, things are changing and there's a lot of transition. And so we just, we felt like we needed to focus on home base for a little while. So I get that. I get that that's awesome. Well, uh, with, Hey, I know a lot of our listeners know who you are and they certainly know church on the move, but give us a little bit of background because you mentioned transition, your life, you're really known for your creativity. Yeah. You brought a lot of creativity to the church over the last decade or more, but you're in transition yourself to into a really exciting new future. So give us a little bit of background about what you've done and where you are now and maybe a tiny sneak peek into what's ahead. Sure. Well, yeah. So I grew up in ministry and at least in a minister's home, my dad's a minister. My dad started off as a working in kids ministry. He had a nationwide kids TV show and, and I grew up in that whole world. My parents did a really great job in shielding us from, I would say maybe the downside of ministry life, they kept us out of the spotlight. They didn't expect us to ever get into ministry, anything like that. So when I graduated high school, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And my dad said, Hey, why don't you just come work for me? He had started a church at this time, started in 1987. I graduated in 94. So he gave me a job right at the top, landscaping for minimum wage. And, uh, that's a smart dad. And by the way, just for everybody's sake, your dad is Willie George. Yeah. That's it. That's very well known. The TV show was gospel bill. And yeah, by that time he had stopped doing all of that. And so I started working at the church. He still had some TV stuff and he just said to me one day, he said, Hey, I want to move you out of landscaping, which was a huge relief to me. And I think you would be good with our television department. And I, I honestly was stunned. And I said, why do you say that? And he said, well, because I think you have like a creative bend to you. Then I think this would do you well. And honestly, that was news to me. I grew up like, you know, I like to draw on sketch and all of that made movies with home video cameras. We didn't have, you know, computers like we have today. You know, to edit stuff on. So I just did it in the camera, but, but my dad saw that in me. And I had no idea that it was there. So that was 1994, it was 22 years ago and this year. And somewhere around probably 10, 12 years in, I ended up taking over our entire arts department at that time. We were kind of building that into our church. It was. So this is the early 2000s, the whole arts department. And so, yeah, took that over, which was like worship and production and all that. And honestly, I'm going to, I had no idea what I was doing, but we just started trying stuff and putting stuff out there and trying to trying to create, you know, the best service experiences that we could possibly create. And it was around the time that kind of everybody was doing that in the church world, you know, starting to bring in lights and haze and all that kind of thing. And so we were just, we were just in the middle of all that trying to figure it out. And gosh, that was like 10 years ago, almost. And then about a year and a half ago, my dad and I had kind of a really pivotal conversation. I had known that one day, my dad, you know, whenever he decided to transition that, that he would pass it to me, but we didn't really talk about it much. And about a year and a half ago, two years ago, the conversation came up through just a variety of circumstances. And it was kind of freaky. And it was like, we both knew now's the time for me to make a move out of the arts world. I had done kind of what I felt like I needed to do there and raise that value in our church. And so I was ready for what was next. And I had just been kind of waiting. I would say maybe it's just sort of like just stalling for the last year or so in that role. And I was ready to take on a lot more responsibility or church. And so he moved me into our executive pastor role. So right now I am pretty much leading about 95% of the day-to-day operations at church on the move. He's still thinking about future, thinking about, you know, kind of closing up all the loose ends, financial stuff, things that he wants to get done. He's by no means going to write off into the sunset anytime soon, but he's just wanting to kind of wrap things up as far as his leadership is concerned. And so he's kind of positioned me in to kind of take this thing. So that's a big change. I mean, that's not even always a common shift either to go from creative arts to like executive leadership, right? Right. And often because it's a very different skill set, I would think to some extent, talk about that. Yeah, I mean, I suppose it probably could be a different skill set depending on how you, you know, how you're wired up and how you, you know, what we think of when we think of, you know, an executive pastor. For me, I would say I have always viewed creativity as solving a problem. That's just the way I think about it. Mm hmm. So when I was in the arts world, the problems that I was solving were different problems, but the process of creativity is the same. So, you know, we could talk all about the creative process and how it works. But ultimately I'm in a position now where I'm trying to figure out a solution to a problem. And I was in a situation where I was trying to figure out a solution to a problem. So I'm taking in different inputs, I would say, like, like the channels of things that are coming into me are different. I'm reading different books, reading about leadership and things that I maybe wasn't as focused on when I was in the arts world. You know, in that role, I was watching a lot of films, listening to tons of music. I don't do as much of that anymore. But now I'm taking things in, but it still all goes into kind of like the same, the same crockpot, if you will, and it simmers for a while and then outcome, you know, solutions. And so it's, for me, it's, it's, it still scratches the same edge. People ask me, you know, do you miss what you used to do? And I miss aspects of it, but truth be told, I really don't miss it that much because I feel like I'm doing the same thing just in a different seat. That's a neat approach. I mean, you looked at the transferable principles and took them from one to the other, but I mean, church on the move is a sizable operation. Talk, talk a little bit about that. Your church tells it, give us a little bit of background for people who may not know about church on the move. Yeah. So we started in 1987 and grew really rapidly. I wasn't a part of all that. I mean, I was attending, but, you know, when you're a kid, you're just not aware of any of those things, nor do you really care that much. And so I wasn't paying too much attention to it, but we grew really rapidly. I'm trying to think our numbers have been fuzzy over the years. A lot of churches are we've not done the greatest job of counting. Um, so I think probably whenever I would have came on staff, we would have been somewhere in the six to 7,000 range. Maybe I would say now we fluctuate anywhere from eight to 10,000 people on a weekend to picture it is we're, we're looking to try to go multi site. And again, that's the, well, and we are multi, my multi site church. I wouldn't say we're, we're doing it really well. You just yet, but we're figuring that out. And that's a shift in and of itself going from being just, you know, a single site location to, and we have a rather large single site. So trying to move from that, uh, to, to kind of a multi site mentality has also been a shift, and that's also been part of this whole transition that's been happening in the last year and a half. So to compound, you know, me stepping into a new role and then trying to get our staff to move away from thinking about just like basically the hub campus or the main campus, if you will, and then the, like the other ones that don't really matter that much or, or trying to truly think about this in a real, you know, no, we are three churches. That's how we think about ourselves. You know, trying to make that transition has been, has been a real challenge. Yeah, I imagine. So everything's kind of changing in your world at once. It is. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And I have five on top of that, which, and you can tell me, what's the age range? Uh, my kids are 13, uh, to two. So I have two boys, three girls. Yeah. Wow. So it's great. Yeah. And what we'll get there, we'll talk about balance and all that stuff. So let me, let me talk a little bit about family dynamics, because I think about all the episodes we've done on this podcast. I'm not sure we've gone there yet, but, you know, it is, it is not typical, but then again, it's not unusual to have a father, son, you know, brother, brother, husband, wife kind of situation at churches where family work together. So here you are, you know, your dad has tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, one day I'm not going to lead everything. That's going to be you talk about some of those dynamics. Like how do you navigate working with your dad? I mean, he's your direct report. He's your boss, right? And he has to work with his son. Right. Yeah. Well, he's been so gracious in that he, he gives me a lot of freedom. And, um, you know, I read a, I read an article about George Lucas recently with the release, the release of the latest Star Wars film. And they were asking him about how involved he was. And he said, you know, I really wasn't. And he said, he couldn't really figure out a way to do it. He said, you're either the dictator or you're not. And he said, there's just no such thing as, as working over someone's shoulder. And I can relate to that. It's when you're a, you know, when you're a passionate leader, it's, you're, you want to get in the middle of something or, or you're just, you've got to remove yourself completely. It's hard to be halfway. And he's been really good at just saying, okay, I'm going to give you the space to do it your way. And I think the kind of the point number one about all of this in terms of transition is it has to begin with the senior leader. I, I'm not sure this can be done from the bottom up. Otherwise it's kind of seen as a coup. And that's true. You know, like, hey, dad, it's time to go. Yeah, right. Exactly. I love the way Tom and Todd Mullins at Christ Fellowship, they, they, they talk about this and they've been through this before us. And they said, basically it's not, or it's, it's, it's my dad's to give, not mine to take. And that's kind of the way for us, you know, the way we've had to deal with it. So he initiated it and I think that was sort of the, the, the starting point. And he's given me a lot of freedom. There's great advantages to it. And, and what's interesting is that the advantage is also the disadvantage. The advantage is that we know each other really well. And I know how it works. And so there's things I can read him and I can speak to him in a way that no one else on our staff can. I can interpret him in a way that no one else can. I can take things further than, than everybody else just because we know each other. I mean, that's just the advantage of family. But then there's the, you know, the, the, the proverb that familiarity breeds contempt. And that's the flip side of it is that you see everything and you see the flaws and you see that they're not perfect. And for me, one of the biggest struggles has been, I would say just keeping a pure heart towards my dad and not allowing myself to become bitter because that sneaks up on you so, so easily. And I've had to really work at that over the years. It's just like not becoming bitter. And there's been several, I would say pivotal moments where we've had key conversations or I've had to have like a, like just a key moment in my own life where God's kind of had to shake me a little bit and help me to realize just, you know, sort of like what I had become or where I was, you know, moving towards with just in terms of bitterness. And so that's been a real struggle. Wow. I mean, I don't, this isn't a counseling session or anything like that, but you choose bitterness. You know, there are unique family dynamics. One of the things I find with family and what, you know, is, you know, even when you'll get the home context, these are the people you love the most deeply, but also the people you cut the least slack. Yeah. In other words, it's really easy to fly off the handle, right? You give a stranger the benefit of the doubt, but like your family, it's just kind of like, I told you to do that, you know, and you get into family voice right away and all that. How do you avoid that in a work relationship? What's been your experience with that kind of dynamic? Yeah, it's been a couple of things. I would say one, I had to realize that it didn't matter how good my dad did it, that I was always going to be frustrated. And because frustration is just part of the human condition, I thought about Adam and Eve, and I thought about Peter and Judas. So here you have two different situations, Adam and Eve, perfect environment, still frustrated, still not happy. Peter and Judas, perfect leader, still not happy, still frustrated. So the reality is that it doesn't really matter whether you were working at the perfect church or your leader was perfect, just because of, I think, sin, you're going to get frustrated. It's going to happen. So I had to, and then the other thing that's good preaching material, by the way, hey, preachers take notes, I'm like, whoa, okay, that's good, that'll preach. Okay, keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the other thing that I would say is that I really felt like God kind of just spoke this to me, was just that if he did everything the way that I wanted it done, there would be no need for me. And so I learned to embrace the differences, realizing that, yeah, he's not going to do it the way that I would want it done. That's because I'm supposed to do it the way I want it done. So stop being frustrated with that and just embrace it and enjoy it. And so those are kind of things that I've had to work through. And then I would say the last thing is this. So often what we get frustrated with, at least me, is the delivery system. It's how something is said or done, not even so much the heart behind it. We end up judging how it was done, how you could have done that differently. You could have been more gentle. Why did you have to say it like that? And we get frustrated with those things. And one of the things, just a practice that I started instituting in my life a while back was just on a regular basis in prayer, telling God, thank you for my dad regularly and all of the things that he's meant in my life. Because there's so many good things. And if I'm not careful, I let the frustrations outweigh the good things. And that's what leads to bitterness. And I feel like bitterness is like concrete. When it gets hard, it's very difficult to break it up. So I'm really working to make sure that my heart doesn't reach that place. It's okay to be frustrated. But what I have to learn to do is very quickly, the frustration sits in and I don't allow myself to sit in that frustration. I very quickly just turn my frustration to thankfulness. Because when I'm thankful, it's really hard to be upset and angry and bitter when you're thankful. So I feel like thankfulness is kind of the salve, if you will, to the bitterness that wants to try to set it in my heart. That is an incredible word. I mean, I feel like that's just graduate level. Marriage therapy, family therapy, family systems therapy. That's really, really good. And I think it gives us a pretty good, even if short insight into why you and your dad can do this. And I think probably it takes a lot of humility on your part. A lot of self-reflection, a lot of introspection. Because often with family, we're the first people to say, no, you should change. Yeah. But we wouldn't do to other colleagues, right? Absolutely. We would personalize it. But it's probably even more important to look in the mirror with family. That's really, really good. Well, hats off and thank God for that dynamic and that relationship that you and your dad have worked on over the years. And I'm sure if he was behind the microphone and he was talking, he would say, well, here are the things that bother me about what you hear the things that I wish were different. He'd have a list too, but obviously a great dad in wanting to be able to pass things off to you, but then also having the courage to worry about that. Let me ask you a question that isn't in the script. It just sort of occurred to me. But when you get handed a small thing, like, let's say your church is 250 people and you have dreams of 2000 or whatever, 20,000. But eight to 10,000, that's a lot of people. What do you do with the weight of that when you realize you're inheriting that? Or do you feel that or you don't think about that? Or it's kind of like going to the World Series. It's like, yeah, it's just another game or how does that work? Yeah, to be honest with you, I don't think about it too much. I'm a right. If I'm messed with your head, I apologize. No, you didn't. I'm a right now kind of a person. I'm not a futurist. I don't think too much about the future. I just kind of take things day to day. So for me, I haven't spent a lot of time. I've worried because I've heard a guy's talk about, hey, when it was passed to me, they felt the weight of it and it was laying in bed at night and all of this. And I've thought, man, I hope that doesn't happen to me. And maybe it does. I don't know. Up to this point, it hasn't. I mean, I feel the responsibility, but then again, I think I'm in the position that I'm in because I've always taken responsibility for the role that's been handed to me. And it goes back to what Jesus said, faithful and least, faithful and much. You know, when you take that responsibility with the small things, I think you're able to kind of grow that strength, I guess you will, if you will, in the bigger things. So you know, that's a really good way to look at it as well. And I think, you know, if you're a good landscaper, you might be good in creative arts. And if you're good in art, you might be good at running it and then executive. And then the whole deal, I think that's a really healthy perspective with. And there's no timeline on this transition, right? There's no like, hey, pick a date on the calendar. And this is going to be it, which again, you and I were talking before we went live with this. But you mentioned, you know, that example earlier with Mullins and the transition that happened there. But I think often with transition, like your dad wants to continue to be involved in the church, like he's not going to ride off into the sunset or just disappear. And you said something, I want everyone to hear in just a minute about some of the unique things your dad will offer in the future. But I think there are more and more founders, because your dad's a founding pastor, who like, know it's time to hand over the torch, but don't necessarily want to leave their church. And historically, what's happened is, you know, you either ride off into the sunset or you have an affair, some kind of moral failure. And that that ends it, which you don't want. That's a bad scenario. And if you have something to give, and you know, can you still do that in a church? And I know that's something I'll talk about it in a future episode of our podcast. You know, I've got a slightly amended role this year at Connectsus Church, because I'm thinking about the future, not just for me, but for our church. And we'll talk about that publicly in a few episodes. But, you know, it's trying to, how do you shift responsibility in the next generation without washing your hands of it and saying, Kate, guess I'm done? Or how do you make that healthy? But you see a role for your dad in the future indefinitely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. The idea is, I mean, one, he's my dad, I think, can be of huge value to next generation leaders like me. And I am the result of the trail that he's placed. I mean, there's so many things. What I recognize is that there's so much that I take for granted that I have just inherited almost by osmosis, just sort of learn just being around him. There are battles I'll never have to fight because he fought them in advance and he kind of set the stage for me. And I'm so grateful for that. Again, I'm thankful for things that I don't even know or that I don't even realize. But I think what he can do in the future is, number one, providing that to other pastors and leaders. And he's already doing so much of that. He's meeting with pastors so much more than he ever used to have time for. That's the great thing about this is now that he has time for this. He's continually meeting with small groups of pastors and talking through just challenges and lessons that he's learned over 40 years of ministry. That's what I think is great. And that's the way I think that the church should be, is that we should be building on the shoulders or on the foundation that was laid before us rather than basically, "Okay, I'm done." And then that is all that experience and is all lost. It now becomes like a shared experience. So I think that's a huge thing. Number two, and this really got me to thinking from your podcast with Hayden Shaw on generations. And I've ordered his book. In fact, I'm already reading it. It's been fantastic. That was so huge to me. But what I started realizing was with all the generations across the church, I saw that there's such a role for me and my dad together in this, because there's a group of people, specifically boomers, that he's going to be able to relate to, that I'm sure they'll enjoy me, but he'll be able to relate to them just because they're of his generation. And they'll be able to relate to him in a way that I might not ever be able to do. So in that way, I feel like we're stronger together than we are separated, that we could reach more people and go broader than if we were to say, okay, you know, your time's done, please leave, or whatever you're going to do, go find something else to do, and then I'll take it from here. But I think we could be better together. And that's the plan that we have is to do this together for as long as possible. See, I think that's really cool. And that's a bit of a different paradigm moving into the future. That was episode 69 of the podcast, by the way. We'll link to it in the show notes. But I think we're really going to run into it. And that's what I was facing here at Connectus. It's founder syndrome, right? When you grow a big thing, and or it grows under you or in spite of you or whatever, I mean, you're the only leader people have ever known. And the question is, is the church going to die with you? Or is someone going to be the sacrificial lamb asking you? Right. And I think it's really cool that you and your dad are working together to try to figure out how do we take this to the next level? And already, you know, in your new role as executive director, you're thinking, how do we go from like the mothership and two little things to like three churches and then and then go beyond that, which is, which again is really cool made. There's probably much bigger things in store for church on the move than even you realize. I hope so. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's a goal. So in all of this, what's been the hardest thing so far? Probably for me has been figuring out a new way to work. Like I said earlier, the process of creativity for me hasn't changed, but I've stepping into a new role. The role that I was in before, I led a relatively small team of people and we worked in a very open office environment. I had an office. I was rarely in it. I am an INTP, but I don't like to work alone. I process things with other people. And so my small team of people that I worked with, I was around them all the time. And so we had clarity around what we were trying to do, where we were going, all of that, because we were together all the time. That's just the way that we worked. Moving into this role, I'm now leading the team of people that I'm leading is a different group of people. And they all have teams under them. So it's trying to figure out, okay, who reports to me? Simple things like that. Who reports to me? What day do we meet? How many people should be in that meeting? What does that meeting look like? What are we trying to accomplish in that meeting? How do I get everybody on the same page? Who do I even work with? So I have a meeting with direct reports and then they're off leading their own teams. And so I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs in my office trying to figure out, okay, what do I do? I'm not the kind of person that needs to be left alone. I'm not good like that. And so trying to figure out just a whole new way of working has been difficult. Just I've been asking, you know, different leaders, all right, what's your schedule? How do you? And then the other thing with this too is because I'm not in the senior senior, like, I'm going to speak probably 20 weekends this year. And last year I did something like 12, 13, something like that. So my speaking load is raising. But last year and the year before that in particular, I'm not speaking all that much. So it's not like I have a study day or two study days built into the week. So I have time, but it's trying to figure out what to do with that time and how to use it. And so I don't know, anytime I've moved from one role to the next, like, you know, in a significant way, for me, and maybe this is just the INTP and me, which makes me want to wrestle things, you know, all the way down to like, you know, is there a God? And then we'll go from there. But, but it is trying to figure out, you know, foundationally, like, what's the right way to do this? What's the right way for me to try to pull this off and work? And that's not been easy. It's been a real challenge. I only feel like just now, a little more than a year and a half and in fact, we're coming up on two years of this, I only feel like just now in like the last month or two, have I really settled into my rhythm and figured out, okay, this is how I like to work now and how I relate with the people. And I can see you're probably several layers removed. I mean, even I'm just imagining here. So if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. But like, when you were over arts, it's like you're actually looking at art or you're actually directing something where you're like, Oh, no, not that try this. Whereas now, like you say, you're really working with leaders of leaders of leaders. That's exactly right. And you're three or four levels removed. So it feels more ethereal. It feels like what do we actually accomplish? You know, your your currency is ideas and strategy rather than, Oh, yeah, that'll look great on the screen. That is exactly right. That's exactly right. That's that's the tension. And that's a different world too. And and I can see, but what I want people to hear, you said something really interesting is, you know, your I've got time, I'm trying to figure out what to do with my time. You know, there's a lot of leaders and this is a church of eight to 10,000, you know, times of choice. And I run into people who lead a church of 50 and they're like, I'm doing 90 hours a week. And I'm like, what? You know, like you can you can turn a job into what you want to make it. That's exactly right. That is exactly right. I have learned over the years that and my dad's just taught me this is that, um, you know, you're you're responsible for your schedule and you're responsible for how other people treat you. And you can dictate that. You can set the parameters for what other people are going to think of as, you know, how they can take your time or not take your time. And so for me, I had cleared, you know, I opened up all this world of worry. I've got time. It's just for me trying to figure out what's the best use, you know, like Andy Stanley says, like, what are you doing that only you can do? And so for me, trying to wrestle that to the ground and go, okay, what is it that I know I could walk over to any one of area of our churches and because I'm passionate, I could get right in the middle of what they're doing. But I'm asking myself, but what is it? Is that the best way for me to work? How do I do it? And like I said, I've only just now kind of figured that out. Wow, that's good. So let's, I think it's good to maybe drill down a little bit on that. So when you were in arts, what were, what was the thing that only you could do? Because there was a little more hands on maybe, but it probably what, you know, you're not designing everything from scratch. You've got people to do that. No, best thing I could describe was from the Steve Jobs movie that no one saw, but I did that really was huge for me. Honestly, it was very. I saw all the commercials and then it like disappeared in 10 seconds. I'm like, I'm waiting it for it to hit Netflix or iTunes. Yeah, it was, it was one of my favorite movies of the year because I related a lot to some of the things that were said in the film. But one of the parts that they're in an orchestra pit and there's a conversation going on. And the guy says, you know, what do you do? And he says, well, there are people who play the violin or the cello. He goes, I play the orchestra. For me in the arts world, that's what I did. I'm not, I'm not making any of the art directly. I'm making it all indirectly through other people. So you're working with designers, with videographers, you know, with different people. And you're kind of shaping the whole thing. The role that I could play is that I saw the whole thing. I could see the entirety of the field, if you will. And I knew what we were doing with all the different pieces that kind of played into what we would do for a weekend or a seeds conference or whatever. I held that perspective. I could see it all. So I was the one really responsible for making sure that everything was coordinating, that all the pieces felt like they came from one mind. Personally, I believe that art is a very personal thing. And then it's best when it comes from the mind of one, maybe two people. I mean, if you're looking at like directors, if you look at all the great bands, the Beatles, Coldplay, you two, there's always, when you look at who writes the songs, it's the majority of everything is written by one to two people. You rarely will see it written by all four people. There's no governance by committee. That's right. That's right. You know, it's interesting because we had that conversation. We were talking about the voice and face of our church, Kinexis Church, and Lane Jones from North Point was with us on retreat. We spent a day talking about all these big issues you never have time for. And, you know, in the same way that a communicator kind of puts a stamp on an organization or has a voice or a way of speaking or a way of writing, Lane's point was that I thought it was brilliant. And if you're wondering, how do I know that name Lane Jones? He's always on Andy's podcast. That's how you know that name. He's the host. Anyway, Lane said that he thinks creative arts is the same thing. And he would argue that there is a look or feel that really comes from one or two individuals. And that was very liberating for our team because our guy, Justin, is his name, Justin Percy. I mean, he's sort of in as I am responsible for the public face and the voice and the writing and the wordsmithing, he is kind of responsible for the visual look and feel. And together, we kind of, you know, dance together and I don't have any input into what our look should be. You know, a little tiny bit at the highest level, but he really runs that and I really run the words and they work really well together. So that's just that's interesting. That's exactly that's that would be my exact thoughts on the issue. Basically, I feel like that that my role was to almost embody the brand of church on the move. The way we felt was that was what I did. That's what I was responsible for. And I still want to have a lot to say about that, even in this new role, because I'm just wired up that way. I care about visual things. I care about a font that's on a screen because that was the world that I came out of and I'm probably never going to let that stuff die. That's like Justin, man. He knows every font. I'm like randomly font checking him. I'm like, what's that font? He goes, oh, that's Gotham. How do you know that? But I can tell you the difference between a good word and a great word sometimes. That's interesting. Well, that was really my role in that in that world was embodying our brand. Interesting. And so you've had a hand part of that off. Yeah, I have. And that has also been, I would say, one of the most difficult parts of this whole thing going back to the George Lucas quote, because as an artist, I feel like the only way I know how to do it is to take over. And it's been very, very hard for us to figure out how do I relate to the team of people that I was so close to before? How do I relate to them now? How do I give them ownership now? And I mean, it's only just now after two years of this, only just now got into the point where we feel like this thing is actually starting to work in a healthy way. I know you mean, man, like in my new role, and again, I don't want to tease it out too much, but like I've decided, we've decided I'm only going to comment on the message, not on the rest of the service for the most. Oh, well, but that's really hard because sometimes I'm like biting my tongue. And it's like, and then every once in a while, I'll lean over to someone else and say, this has got to be dealt with. And then they'll quietly run it up the food chain until something changes. But like, it's hard to do that. And how do you not disengage? Like, you know, how do you when you're not running that or like giving active input, I just find it's a balance between like total like, oh, change that or change this or hey, that's too loud or that's too quiet or, you know, what about this light or hey, that light isn't on to like disengagement. I don't care. I think one of the things that's worked for us is to craft some language around this so that we could talk about it. It occurred to me one one night just thinking about this in a moment of frustration that no one asks artists like outside the church to duplicate themselves. And I think I think that there's way more artistry going on in the church than just in the arts department. It's it's really what you're pouring yours. I mean, you're doing it. It's what you pour yourself into. That's to me, that's an art. And and when you do that, the thing is no one's asking like Daniel Day Lewis, an incredible actor, hey, where's the next Daniel Day Lewis? We just appreciate him for his art. But in the church world, we're going, yeah, that's great. You're doing a great job. But like, where's the next you? How come you haven't reproduced yourself yet? And it's this, I think the strange question, this strange tension. So what we've done is to just identify it between, are you asking me to be an artist right now? Are you asking me to be a leader? If I'm a leader, then I'll coach you up and I can tell you, you know, something I won't get too involved. If you're asking me to be an artist, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think and it will be harsh. But this is my point of view on the subject. And I don't know how to not have, you know, that point of view, I can't lie to myself or to you. So it kind of, for us, identifying the roles and whenever I sit down with our arts team and it's like, okay, what do you need me to do? Are you asking me to be the artist here? Are you asking me to be the leader? And trying to just, that just helps us kind of understand where everybody's coming from. Well, and it probably moves you that that's a really helpful distinction. It probably moves you out of dictator territory all the time too. Because otherwise, I mean, you do have passion and opinions about things, right? Absolutely. And so when they call you in, it's like, so are you asking me? Are you saying take this thing over and help us? Or are you just saying, hey, you know, give me some feedback, like, you know, just coach me up a little bit, make sure I'm not missing it because I'm not going to do it exactly like you. But I still would like your opinion. And so that helps to have that distinction. Well, you know, and the other thing too, you know, what Lane said that day is, is that the art is a little bit like a fingerprint, right? Like Andy, Andy Stanley has lots of imitators, but there's really only one Andy because he creates that content. Right. And if you go to the Daniel Day Lewis, or let's say the Steven Spielberg in the director field, is Steven Spielberg really going to reproduce himself? Probably not. But hopefully there are other directors who, you know, if they directed a movie, the same movie, it would be a little bit different, but it would still be awesome. It just wouldn't be Steven Spielberg. That's right. So you've got to have other directors, you got to have other actors, but there's something with artists and maybe even with communicators that when the artist or communicator dies, that's it. You know, they're dead. That's right. And they died. And there won't be another one, but there will be another one that's probably awesome, but they'll be awesome in a different way. Yeah, that's exactly right. Okay. Sorry. That's like, that's like a leadership therapy for me. So that was very helpful. Good. Thanks. Way. Okay. Good, good, good. Where were we? Man, this is, this is, this is good. So that's been hard. Anything else that's hard. Oh, man, the whole thing, the whole thing. But yet very, very rewarding. I mean, it's been both the hardest and most rewarding thing that I've ever done. There's there's a bit of, I would say, you know, maybe more of a faith journey in this with the arts. You know, I was pretty confident that the things that I was making or we were making as a group that they would work. And this role, you're just like, you know, it's slower. It takes more time to see results. And you know, with a service, I could craft a great service this weekend and you got to watch it and you'd see it and you go, man, there's a sense of satisfaction that when you're working on an organization, it's slow. And it doesn't happen immediately. So you lose that, that sense of immediate, you know, response that you used to get to people. Wow, that was great. I really enjoyed it. You don't have that with, with what you're doing right now, at least as immediately. So it requires more patience. And I'm not a patient person. Yeah. And that is a hard part of senior leadership, you know, having sat in that chair for decades now, I think that's why a lot of senior leaders come home and like cut their grass. It's like, whoo, it was long. Now it's cut. Yeah, you know, you're exactly right. I had a guy tell me recently that just a mentor in his life had said, you know, the reason he was, he was talking to him, he said, Hey, I just completed my taxes today. Got my taxes filed. And he said, Minister, great day. And he said, man, that's, that's interesting. He said, I think the reason that you feel that way is because ministry never ends. And he said, it's good for pastors or senior leaders to have projects in their life that end, that are just like, there's a start and a finish, because we just don't get too many of those. And where you can win, you know, where you're like, whoa, that was good. It actually looks good. I can put my feet up. It felt good. You know, it helped in some small or insignificant way. But you're right. And man, I mean, when your ministry's growing, that's awesome. But every time, you know, you want to celebrate the win, it's like, okay, and now there's five more challenges where that win left off. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. But it's exciting. Okay. So I want to, before we're done today, because there's so many places we can go, but I remember when you and I spoke at that conference, which is the activate conference at next level church. So you should check that out with Josh Gagnon. It was great conference, but you showed a video of your church and what was it 2002? Yep. Your dad was leading it. It had an orchestra. Yeah. I mean, church on the move is known for innovation and known for being, you know, under your leadership in that area at the very forefront of the creative arts movement in the church. But, you know, the picture you showed of just over a decade ago was like a very traditional, almost like what you'd see on a bad YouTube video of like the orchestra and leisure suits and the whole deal. You guys have done a lot of change in innovation. And I know there's a lot of leaders listening right now who need to do that in their church to change something. Talk about that journey for a little bit. Wow. That was a heck of a journey. And honestly, it was kind of the first thing that we needed to do to even get to where we are now. I would say that a lot of that came carry from my dad. I felt a lot of that stuff in some ways. In other ways, I didn't because church was, I never, you know, at that point, I didn't even know that there was another kind of church possible. This is what I grew up with. So I just thought this is what it is. But my dad had been around long enough to have seen guys who were very effective in ministry, had great churches and all this, but they grew old, their congregations grew old. And what they had labored their whole life to build wasn't really passed on very well. And he was smart enough to recognize that if that happened to them, it could happen to him. And so he started thinking, we're going to have to do something. And we just kind of went on a like a search. We started visiting other churches. I remember we went to North Point. I think we went down to Dallas to see at Young's Church down there or just to see churches that were doing it differently than us. And what, you know, do something that Craig Rochelle calls the gift of disorientation and just get in a different world and see that, you know, how we went to Willow, we went all over the place just seeing how church was done in a different way. And that began a conversation that would change our church. What looks like overnight to maybe everybody else was so slow on the inside, it took forever. But I would say that, you know, a huge key to that was my dad's willingness to make change in the face of opposition. And I can just tell you that there will always be opposition to change. People are always going to get attached to the way it's always been done. And he was just the kind of leader and it is just the kind of leader who said, you know, and we're in the process of going through this again with some other things at our church that are big transitions for us. Things we haven't even made public yet, but are big deals that he's willing to say, you know what, I'm willing to stick my neck out and move forward, even if it's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, it has to be done. It's willing to say, you know, we're going to give up what's been good for something that can be great. And that's, I think, one of the most difficult decisions that probably a leader has to make. And so he was willing to do that. That was really what brought one of the things that brought the two of us together, because we worked on it together. But that began in 2002 around that time. And really, we didn't finish, I would say, kind of really fully stepping into that role until really about 2009. So it was a good seven year run of just trying to figure things out and being willing to experiment and try things. And you probably lost a few people. We did. Yeah, we did. You had people that would tell you, you know, you're, you're no longer a Christian or whatever, all the different things. Devil's music or whatever. Absolutely. And they get upset. And the great thing my dad did was this, knowing that so many of the decisions that were being made for the services were not his personal decisions. He had, he had, he had delegated that out. But he owned those decisions like they were his own in the face of criticism. And I can't tell you what that does. We have so many younger leaders and people ask my dad a lot, Hey, how did you get these people? You know, where did all these guys come from? And a lot of it started when we were kids. But as we grew up, he, he defended us and never threw us under the bus when people were complaining. And one of the things that I have seen over and over and over again, because I get, I talked to a lot of second generation guys, like myself, who were kind of in the same boat, and they're trying to change their churches and institute some new things. And their dad is essentially or pastors willing to make some changes. But as soon as there's any pushback, they, they don't own the change personally. And they throw the second generation under the bus. Well, that wasn't me. That was them. We'll take it back to the way that it used to be. I mean, I've literally heard stories of people changing things one weekend, coming in with a whole new set of changes, you know, look stage looks different, everything looks different. And people, you know, the congregation reacts negatively to it. And the very next week, it's right back to the way that it used to be. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, and that's a credit to your dad. Yeah. You know, like, man, taking bullets for the team. No wonder you've got, you know, people 20, 30 years younger than him going, I want to work for that guy. Yeah, absolutely. It was one of the things that, that just let me know that I could continue to invest in church on the move, because I mean, I'm 40. And I'm seeing, I'm seeing guys who, who are younger than me planting churches, you know, Josh Gagnan, we were up there where we met, I've been planting a church doing very well, getting to make all of his own decisions. Why would I give up, you know, my, my, I don't know, dream or ability to be able to run my own show, do my own thing? Why would I give that up to stay and serve someone else? I would do it for this reason, you know, because he was willing to sacrifice for me. I'm willing to sacrifice for him. And I think that's one of the, the things that, that makes a leader worth following is that sacrifice. This is so rich. Well, you know, with, there are leaders who need to be making a change or are preparing for a change or in the middle of a, of some significant change in their life, stepping into a new role, maybe with their dad, probably not in most cases. Right. What advice would you have for someone in transition? What are one or two steps they could take to sort of prepare themselves? Well, first of all, I would say to the person who, who wants change, I went for years, both different seasons in our church, I'll just say different seasons, wanting things to change that hadn't changed yet. And one of the things that I would say is we often get really frustrated with the things we can't control to the neglect of the things we can control. So true. And one of the things that I just had to come to grips with is look, you focus on the things you can control and you leverage those things and maximize those things as much as you can. And then let God do the rest. And that's, I think one of the things that I honestly, I think a lot of people, my generation and younger really struggle with is letting you going, okay, God, I give you my career path. We want to make everything happen for ourselves. And I think, you know, you just step back and you say, okay, God, I'm going to give this to you. Even though right now I see no hope of change, I see nothing moving. I'm going to give this to you. There were many times, Kerry, where I had to pray and do something, Bill Heibels challenged a huge group of us to do pastors. I was at a conference years ago with him. And he just said, I want to challenge you to settle your calling. When was the last time you settled your calling? And so I've had to do that several times just to say, God, is this still where you want me? And then the answer is yes. And when it is, I double down on the things that I can control. The other thing I would say is don't ask for authority. Take responsibility. So often we want to come in and go, Hey, give me the authority. Would you give me? I never asked my dad for the executive pastor position, although probably for two years before he handed it to me, I was dreaming of it and wanting it. I waited. And when the time was right, the transition happened. And I think that's so much better than coming in and going, Hey, would you give this to me? But I just took responsibility with the things that I could control. And I think that's, I think that's a huge lesson for people who are wanting change to happen because there's so many of them of my generation. I talk to them all the time. Can you say that one more time? You said don't claim authority or ask for authority. Take responsibility. Yeah, don't don't ask for authority, but take responsibility. That's so good. That was, and I have to give credit to my dad for that one. I've learned that from him. He just said that the other day, and I thought, man, that's so good. Don't, don't, don't ask for authority. Take responsibility. The best leaders. In fact, I think it's a great leadership gauge for the people on your team, just who's asking for authority or who's taking responsibility. Your best leaders are the ones who are taking responsibility. They feel it personally. Yeah, you're right because authority eventually catches up with people who took responsibility. That's exactly right. It's exactly what happens. Yes, that does. Brilliant. Okay, you were moving on to the next point. Yeah, no, that's good. The second thing I would just say is be patient. Gosh, there's so many leaders that you could talk to that would know so much more about this kind of thing than me. I'm only just stepping into a kind of a senior leadership role in this regard, but I would say be patient. Things don't happen at the speed that you, you want them to. And we are, I think, so aware nowadays, and it's both a blessing and a curse of everything that's happening in the body of Christ all around us. You're hearing about, you know, what's happening at Elevation Church or Connectsus Church or at North Point or New Spring, and you're hearing all these crazy numbers. I mean, we're right here in the land of life church and the numbers that you hear from them are just unbelievable numbers. So you hear all of that and you think, wow, you know, why isn't that happening for us? Why isn't it happening now? And we're too late. And one of the things I just, I felt like God kind of gave me this image and I, you know, I don't hear audible voices or any of that kind of thing, but I just really felt like God spoke to me in this way a while back and just said that, Hey, what you're, you're not running to a train station only to find out that the train left 30 minutes ago. You're right where you need to be in your right on time. And I think so often as leaders, we get frustrated that things aren't happening at the speed that we want. But I'm telling you, when you look through Scripture, you see how long things took. I mean, Moses in the desert for 40 years and the wilderness for 40 years. And, and, and, and I, you know, the thing I think about is what was happening to the people who were suffering for 40 years, they continued to suffer while Moses, while God got Moses ready. And then when he was finally ready, he sends them. I mean, Joseph, it's 13 years. Walt from his, you know, brothers sold him into slavery to the time he rises to this position. In Egypt, you know, David, 15 years from the day, think about that, 15 years from the day he's anointed king to the day he actually becomes king. What's going on in your head and in your heart that you know what God said, but you see no evidence of that happening. And I would just say, in, in the, in the world of like we want it now. Yeah. And we see things blowing up all around us to just be patient and work the process and work the plan that God's given you and let the chips fall where they may. That's so true. You know, you looked at Saul and David. One of the critiques of Saul would be that he took things into his own hands. Yes. It's like, Hey, Samuel's not here yet. I'll just make this thing up. And David waited a long time, a decade and a half. Oh my goodness. But you're right. Often if you take things into your own hands, man, it's, it's a mistake. Yeah. So look, that's so good. That's so good. Whit. This has been awesome. Thank you so, so much. People are going to want to track with you online. Where can we find you? The best place to kind of get stuff from us is we have a resource site that we started. And it's really where the seeds conference was born out of. It's seeds.churchonthemove.com. seeds.churchonthemove.com. And what we do on there is we blog and we give away all of our resources. So all the creative things that I've worked on with our team over the years, almost all that stuff is available on that site. I mean, we have music tracks that we've created, videos that we've created, tons of it. We're not the first people to do this, but we feel like God's been so gracious to us. We want to be generous with everybody else. So we give all of our resources, everything we make, we put it up there, and it's available for free. And if you're curious about the seeds conference, that's where you'll find out information about it. We'll be at seeds.churchonthemove.com. And then from time to time, I just get asked, in fact, I bump into so many, so many second generation leaders who are just looking for a little advice. And so I started up just a site. It's just with George. That's just my name, W-H-I-T-G-E-O-R-G-E dot consulting. And I don't do a lot of it when I have time, but I'll sit down, do a Skype with somebody, or they fly in and we just kind of spend a day together or whatever and just talk about transition and what's going on and all those kinds of things. So I run into so many guys my age who are just trying to deal with this and need somebody to talk to that I just created a site where that could happen. That's awesome. We will link to all of that in the show notes. And to all of you, church planners with no budget, I was answering someone on my blog today who's like, "Well, if you're only preaching 17 times a year, you know, 35 times a year who's in for the other 17 times a year." And I'm like, "Use video teaching." I mean, there are other resources out there that you can get for free, thanks to churches like church on the move. So make sure you check that out. This is amazing. I'm looking forward to hanging out again. Absolutely. I've had a blast. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks. Don't you just love it? I mean, hasn't he got the most humble spirit? I mean, that has got to be tough to really, you know, start in the landscaping department when your dad's the pastor and then eventually, you know, to be invited into senior leadership. And I just, I love the way they're handling that. So I hope you enjoyed it. You're going to want more. So you can find that in the show notes. Just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode85 and you'll find everything there. Next week, we're back with Josh Whitehead for episode 86. He's an executive pastor. And if you're an executive pastor, you've probably heard of Josh. He's quite a leader in that field. Fascinating smart guy. And he's going to talk about why staff don't trust each other, particularly senior pastors, executive pastors and other staff. So it's going to be a great conversation. Plus we'll do a lot more. Make sure you subscribe. Hey, man, thanks for making this incredible. If you haven't checked out the lasting impact team edition yet, my new video companion to lasting impact book, make sure you do that by going to lastingimpactbook.com. It is available this week. I'm so excited for the launch. And we're back next week with more. The best way to make sure you don't miss anything is to subscribe. And I've got a special note for all of you from Australia next week. So hang on. It's going to be a lot of fun. That's it for today. We're back next Tuesday. And I do hope our time together today has helped you lead like never before. You've been listening to the karaenuhoff leadership podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before.