The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 084 – Leading a Rapidly Growing Turn Around Church at Age 32: An Interview with Brent Ingersoll
[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the Carey Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carey Newhoff. Well, hey, everybody. And welcome to episode 83 of the podcast. My name is Carey Newhoff. I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. And man, what a lot of fun last week was. That was great. I had to celebrate-- oh, my Canadian show through. A. That was great to celebrate one million downloads of this podcast. And I got to tell you, you guys made last week sensational. So to those of you who managed to get a Starbucks off our Starbucks giveaway, that's great for those of you who missed out. Hey, one day I'll be in your town, I'll buy you a Starbucks. Does that sound good? And then congratulations to the winners of the lasting impact team edition, which is coming out soon. You'll be among the very first to get it. And we're so pumped for that. So lasting impact team edition comes out in just a couple of weeks. And it is the video companion to my latest book, lasting impact, seven powerful conversations that will help your church grow. I shot a whole bunch of videos-- well, a whole bunch-- eight that I hope will really help your team. You can just kind of press play. And that way, those people who didn't read the chapter will sort of get caught up. Those who did will kind of reframe the issue. And hopefully it will help you have a more meaningful conversation with your team. And I shared a lot of the key principles in the book, some things that are not in the book. Plus, I give you a bonus episode on how to have a conversation with your team without blowing it apart, even when it's contentious sometimes. So that's a lasting impact team edition. It's me speaking directly to your team about some of the critical conversations we need to have in the church today. It's available soon. When details become available, you'll find it at lastingimpactbook.com. So stay tuned for that. We'll have exact release details very, very shortly. Now, I let my Canadians slip out. And it happens from time to time. Most people, you know, if I give a talk, will be like, oh, we couldn't tell you we're Canadian until you said about or occasionally I'll say, hey. But I'm so happy to have a fellow Canadian on the podcast today. His name is Brent Ingersoll. He's somebody I met last year when I was speaking to Atlantic Canadians. And, you know, sometimes we despair about the church. And we think, you know, is it really a next generation of leaders coming up? And as you know, if you're a frequent listener, I love the next generation. I just really, really do. I have a heart for young leaders who are giving their very best years to the most important work, I think, in the world, which is the work of the church. And Brent is one of them. And he took a very difficult situation and stepped into it. And God has used him powerfully. I mean, sometimes turning a church around can be difficult in and of itself. But it's even more difficult after there's been moral failure in the church before you started leading. And Brent at a very young age, 29, got moved into this situation and had to figure out how to lead when he'd never really been the senior leader of anything. And God has used him so powerfully. The church has exploded. It's growing. It's a great news story. And I hope it's super encouraging for you. So you're going to really enjoy this. And you'll just be able to tell, like I did when I first met Brent, that he's just like one of those leaders you want to follow. And so if that's you and maybe the geography in your region isn't working for you or you think your age is working against you or you're like, man, there are so many obstacles, I just think the story's really going to encourage you. Plus, Brent's a really fun guy to be with, too. And you're going to hear that in the interview. Hey, just a note that next week, yes, next week, I'm going to be in Atlanta for rethink leadership. I hope you're going to be there. And if you're not, you know, you still could be. The Orange Conference is happening. Rethink Leadership is happening. It starts on Wednesday, April 27th, and goes until Friday, April 29th. I can't wait to hang out with you. And you know what, there's still a couple, not many, but a couple tickets left for rethink leadership. You can go to rethinkleadership.com. And we would just love to host you there. So if you're like, hey, I got some space in my calendar next week and you can get over there, we'd love to see you. This is the very first year we've done the conference. It's going to be amazing. Just over 400 leaders in a very intimate, intentionally intimate setting where we take some of the best leaders today and we just go hard at it for two or three days where we really try to build in you. And I think you're going to come back on like leadership octane by the time you fly out Friday when Orange Conference and rethink leadership are done. So that's next week. Anyway, check it out, rethinkleadership.com. In the meantime, here's my conversation with Brent. Well, Brent, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you. We met about a year ago when I was on the east coast of Canada. You are in New Brunswick. And we got to hang out a little bit with our mutual friend, Tim Geptel. Yeah, that's right. Super privileged to be here today, Kerry. I do want to say on behalf of all of us regular listeners, I'm a regular listener. And man, thanks a ton for what you're doing with the podcast. Just access to mentorship that you may not have access to. That's what it's been for me. So huge thanks, man. I'm a weekly listener. Thank you so much, Brent. And I'll tell you, it's been a blast for me, too. I feel like my notebook's always open. And hopefully, I get better in the process that that's if I listen, you know, I will, I will. But it's a thrill. And you're doing something, Brent, that I found very exciting. I mean, when we met, I kind of thought, wow, there is a leader. I've got to follow. You're doing something very few leaders are doing. You're leading a rapidly growing church in Canada. Technically, I think in our country, it qualifies as a mega church because it's about 1,200 people. So I know in the US it's like 2,000, but that is a massive church. It's in New Brunswick. And for all of our listeners who have never heard of New Brunswick, that's probably because it's a little bit different from New York. But awesome, that said. Awesome, awesome, awesome. You're in St. John. It's a church that you sort of got moved into senior leadership after there were some problems, some serious church problems with the previous leader. Not exactly a recipe for success. Plus, you're like, how old? Yeah, I can give my story. I'm 32 and I, yeah, I started, I'm three years in now. So I became lead pastor when I was 29. But yeah, we're in St. John, New Brunswick. I tell my American friends, New Brunswick is on top of Maine. That still doesn't help all of the Americans. So I have to tell them, Maine is on top of New England. Just think New England, so. Yeah, just keep going north and east. And you're eventually there. It's beautiful, actually. I've been to New Brunswick a bunch of times. It is, we're like Canada's Boston. It's like an old work city. Looks a lot similar, a lot of old brick buildings. Really cool, a lot of characters. So yeah, we're in Southern New Brunswick. Yeah, I was 29 years old when I took over as lead pastor here at Kings Valley Church. Quick backstory, really, the church was launched in the '80s and saw its significant growth through the '90s and into the end of the '90s. And it was actually my uncle, it was lead pastor. And they grew from a church of about 200 to, they broke through that 500 barrier. And just through a great season in their history, like 500, a church of 500 is still one of the biggest churches in Atlanta, Canada, by a long shot. Average church size here is very, very small. So, there was a lot of just rich history here at the church. After 18 years, pastor Don Ingersoll, who is my uncle? And he hired me. He moved on, kind of his season was done. And there was a hire of a new leader who came in. And frankly, to his credit, he made some big changes and things that needed to happen and just some shifts that were time. And it was just a really difficult season of ministry that he led in. Funds were tight and tensions were high and all that stuff that a lot of leaders have to go through. And just resulted in a real painful season there where he had a bit of a moral meltdown and good guy, but that just happens to the best of us when things get really, really trying and you don't, for whatever reason, deal with your soul, maybe in the right way. I don't know all the details of how it went down, but long story short, he had a moral failure and it was a really painful thing. Not just for him. - Just gotta be hard on everybody. - Everybody, absolutely everybody. And it was a surprise one, like he's a good man. No one ever. - Everybody saw coming at us as out of character for him, the whole deal. - But it still happened? - It did. So that happened. We were about 600 people at the time. It was the fall of 2012. And man, it was just like a wrecking ball hit our church. And it really, it was very painful and destructive as he was removed publicly. And, you know, we went from six full-time staff down to three in a three-week span, so a paid staff. 'Cause he was removed and then two staff guys decided I'm not gonna stick around to see how this pans out. So they quit. And so there was myself who was the associate pastor at the time and we had our youth pastor and children's pastor who were paid staff remaining. So we were just in a, it was definitely a season of difficulty for sure. So I did what any 29-year-old person who's now in charge of 600 hurting people would do. And, you know, I prayed, man. Like I really didn't like, not to over-spiritualize. And God taught me a lot about leadership since, but bottom line is that season and since then, our church has just been a church who prays. And we, you know, I got up, I was handed the mic, you know, the moment after the resignation letter was read and said, "Hey, I don't know what we're gonna do, "but I know I'm gonna be in here Wednesday and I need to pray." And if you wanna join me, you can. And, you know, about a third of our church showed up for that. And, you know, our church has just been a church who's been praying ever since. So the weird thing was though, in that season, we didn't shrink. We lost a lot of people. Like there was a high turnover. It was just from pain and confusion. It's just natural. But then there was a lot of, there's an influx of new people coming. So I don't know if, you know, everyone likes to watch a train wreck. I don't know what, why? But people just started coming. And it did become pretty clear, you know, that God's hand was on us in that season. We just, we walked slow, we walked through it slow, where it's not probably healthy for a church to look inward for very long, but probably you do need to have those seasons where you take a hard look at yourself. And we realized pretty early on that there was a lot more going on than just, "Hey, this is about one man's sin. "We never played it like that." And basically said, "Hey, what's God trying to get? "What's he doing in us?" And we've got an opportunity here now for some, the pain's already happened. So let's let God do what he wants to do. And we just went through a season of, you know, just looking inward and repentance and realizing maybe we've made some, some idols out of things that really weren't in God's heart. And so it was just a real season of refinement and, you know, allowing the Lord to heal and change some deep, deep stuff in us. So that was a big thing that happened there for those few months following. And then the thing was, I guess God was putting His hand on us. And as that happened, I became the leading candidate for the job of lead pastor and went into that whole interview process and that thing. - So you became the interim and then the lead? - Yeah, just by nature, the fact that I was the associate pastor. - And there were only three of you left. - Exactly, the youth guy or the children's person. And it wasn't a clear option, but they did choose me. And then, yeah, we started to grow in that season. And so for whatever reason that put me in the conversation and I became lead pastor at the end of December in 2012. So a few months after that, I went down. And then just since then, you know, we've been on a steady growth track. So, you know, there was some real foundational shifts that happened and God did some really great healing. A lot of turnover and a lot of new faces. But since then, we're about three years in now and we've doubled. So we've gone from about 600 regular attenders to about 12. And in that time, we've added another location and a location in a prison as well. So we technically have three locations happening right now. So we've just been riding a really fast moving wave of fruitfulness and growth. And it's been pretty amazing, really. It's been a wild story. - It is a wild story. I mean, it caught my attention to see what God's doing. And I mean, you've obviously, He's gifted you in leadership, but you're figuring this out in real time as you go along, right? - Yeah, assembling a plane in mid-air, really, you know? One of the things though, I think if I look back, Harry, I would say I was handed a real gift. One on a personal level, God threw me in to a situation that really humbled me and like many brothers and sisters from my generation, you know, a millennial. We, you know, the entitlement is a thing and thinking you deserve things is a thing. And God pushed me into a situation where I really did know I was over my head and it humbled me significantly. And I was changed deeply in that season. Just I was driven to know Jesus and love Him in a way I never had before. - Why do you think you went there rather than, hey, this is the moment I've been waiting for? I'm just curious, it's a really interesting story. - I just think that God knew, I mean, God's so amazing that He can simultaneously work out His will for a whole church and one little guy like me at the same time. And I think He threw me into the one situation that He knew, even in my maybe arrogance and entitlement, I would never say, yeah, I've got this. He just, he knew it was beyond me. - He threw you so far into the deep end, you knew you were gonna drown, but for Him. - Without a doubt. And He very much saved me through that and really renewed me like very early into that season. I mean, I'm a Christian kid, I grew up in this. I'm like third generation pastor, like it's in my blood, but very early on in that season, at least was conditioned enough to know, okay, well, when you have nowhere to go, you pray. And so I was getting up early every morning praying with God and somewhere about two and a half months in, I was closing in on burnout and just feeling like, I don't know how much longer I can go with this. And I had a real profound experience with God, just Him saying like, you're missing an intimacy I'm calling you to and so I was going to God like as a means to an end, right? Like, okay, Jesus, give me what I need today, real mature you've got to do and I'll see you tomorrow, that kind of thing. And really just in that season, shifted, you know, to a new degree, learning what it means to abide and find your strength in an ongoing intimacy with Him that's not based on results, it's not based on success or failure. And so just finding a strength in that. So, you know, I was handed a pretty big gift there with that, like that God really used that to change me. And I would say from a leadership perspective on a real practical, like it's a gift to even have that opportunity where the things blown wide open, like I didn't have to get up and explain to people why we need to change. And if we stay here, this is what's going to happen. Everybody knew, like we can't stay here. Tell us what to do, we're with you, we'll go. So I was handed the green light with that too, like anybody is ready to roll at that point. - If I can go, this is really interesting to me. It sounds a little bit like John Stickle, I think that was episode 29. John was in a tough situation. I can't remember where there was moral failure offhand, but basically a stuck church and, you know, 29 years old, he's in charge and three years later, it's three times a size or whatever. And prayer was very, very important to him as well. - Yeah. - Tell me a little bit about, 'cause I appreciate you opening up that, you know, you're going to God for things. And gosh, that's not a millennial thing. I think that's a people thing. I think that's an every generation thing. So what shifted in your prayer life? Like you said, there's intimacy now. Describe that a little bit, like when you pray, because I struggle with that. Like sometimes I think, do I love God or do I love God for what he gives me? - I think I just, maybe for the first time, was it was given language to identify a propensity in me? I still battle with that probably more so than ever now. You know, like, I mean, we're gearing up for a pretty large campaign as a church. And, you know, already fighting that thing in me. This is, all right, gotta go spend some time with God or else, you know, he's gonna remove his favor from me and everything. - Yeah, 'cause you're out of space and you've gotta go into a major building project. - In a way, there's a real, especially as leaders, like, and I hate to use this language, but it's true. Like there's a real tendency in us to try to prostitute God like that. I gotta go to you to get from you what I need to do. My job, it is for you after all. So you're gonna give it to me, right, Jesus? Like that kind of thing. - Right, right, right. - And it's for your glory. But if I get some credit along the way, that's okay too, right? It's all that, I think that's why I love Henry now and so much. I'm reading the Genesee Diaries right now. And he's just so honest. And when I read his diary entries, I'm kind of like, yep, that's me, selfish, horrible, human being I am, and yet God loves me. - Absolutely. But I mean, I guess I just identifying that, you know, I was unaware of that capacity in me or that that was even a problem. And, you know, the picture, the biblical picture I got in that season was Mary and Martha, you know? Like just, I'm so Martha in the kitchen cooking, getting things done for Jesus after all. - Right, right, right. - And, you know, and Jesus basically puts her in her place and says, you know, Mary has got the one thing right, and it won't be removed from her, you know? - I always hated that story, you know? If we're just being honest, I'm like, no, Jesus, you got that backwards 'cause, you know? Mary's house is a mess and, you know, she's not, she's not really accomplishing anything meaningful with her life and, you know? Martha should get the reward, but I think Jesus was right, I was wrong. - Wow, that's an awesome thing. - You're an A-type driven person by nature, Brent. - Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I just, I'm a doer and a goer and I'm drawn to results and feeling very validated and vindicated in them. And man, just God trying to balance me out and receive my, you know, validation and vindication from Him to not let the successes go too much to my head or the failures too much to my heart. And there's just that intimate connection with Christ, I guess that season in 2012 was the first time. I took new, maybe new steps forward, at least in knowing what it looks like. It's an ongoing battle to stay connected, especially when you are temperamentally like Martha and I just wanna go and put the best meal and, you know, serve Him that way and earn His love and not realize that He just loves me anyway and I work out of that place. - Yeah, that's refreshing and that's real. And you know, that gives me a lot to pray about too when I look at my own life and I'm like, God, I don't even know that I'm praying with pure motives. Maybe I need to pray about that. Well, first of all, I do know I'm not praying with pure motives, I know that. That's absolutely a given. So maybe I need to pray about that. Oh, that's so good, that's so refreshing. It's universal as well. You also said that there were maybe some idols that the church had put up. Are you free to share any of those? - Sure, well like the glory days of our church before this season were in. Like the growth really happened through the early 90s and, you know, we saw growth there from two to 500 people and it was largely on like production, attractional things like Easter cantatas and Christmas performances and, you know, and really that was like my uncle who was the lead pastor at the time. That was his bread and butter and really gifted in that. And our church was really gifted in that and there was a lot of legitimate life change and people coming to Christ through that. It did have its day. And when my predecessor got here, he shifted 'cause that had stopped being effective somewhere along the line and he- - Still doing it, but not the same results. - Yeah, and he did really to his credit the hard work of transitioning that. And he did that over like a couple of years but what had happened was we just, we transferred, you know, Easter productions to Sunday production and now that's the value. Well, and we were even using that language like, you know, we're not doing productions anymore. We're gonna do Sunday as a production. We're gonna put all that same energy. And what we did, we just transplanted what had become an idol and created another one. And I'm certainly not opposed to production. And if you visited our church, you'd see, you know, we do it as- - Yeah, I watched online. You do a great job of production. - Yeah, we do the best we can. We certainly hold creativity and excellence in high value. But at the end of the day, I think in that season, our primary goal shifted a little bit from doing a great job so that we get people to come to church, which is again, still a value. But I think we replaced it with a new value to say, okay, the first person we want to be sure comes to church is the Holy Spirit. And if we can get the Spirit of God here and provide space for Him to be glorified and felt, that's primary goal, number one. And, you know, you can say that's your value, but it's a real subtle thing, you know, when everything changes. So one of the things we did in 2012 is we kind of shut everything down for a while. We pulled back on just the production value for a season. And we refined it a little bit just to, hey, let's just get in touch with where we're at and reconnect with God and give Him space in our services. And we, I mean, we've ramped up in many ways, but at the end of the day, though, I do feel like, I remember about a couple of weeks ago, I was standing at the back of our worship center at one of our main campus and watching the team do their thing. I just had a moment of real pride of, hey, they are crushing it and doing an awesome job. But I sat there and I thought, you know what? If the power went out and we didn't have any of this stuff, I don't feel like a thing would change. Like, I feel like the same spirit would be here. And this doesn't define us, you know? It's absurdly-- - Yeah, that's good. Your production doesn't define you. - Yeah, it's certainly something we use and leverage as best we can, but it's not the defining factor. And we really watch close with the languages too when people are leaving. We do wanna create an environment that, you know, like unchurch people get it and it's welcoming. But I want the language to be, I don't know what it is I'm feeling right now or people wiping tears saying, I don't know why I'm even crying. As you may know, being a candidate, we have a lot of first generation Christians have zero concept or context for any of these experiences. And so-- - Yeah, welcome to my world. Don't even know what it means to be a Christian. I'm gonna have to teach through that because even after people become Christian, it's like, so did I do that right? Like, what is that? - Yeah, I mean, grandma didn't even tell them about Jesus. Like that-- - No. - We have just full on, you might as well be in a, you know, in the Amazon jungle telling people for the first time. And, but one of the things is we work really hard to have experiences and worship times where it's undeniable, whether you are a believer or not, it's undeniable that there is something real happening in this room. - Yeah. - And so that became a value for us. And that was a big shift that happened. - Hmm, that's a really good example. And, you know what, I sense there's a shift that's happening universally in the church. I've written about it before on my blog. And, you know, I just think the production that got us here isn't gonna get us there. And it doesn't mean you should have terrible production. It doesn't mean that you should, you know, not spend a nickel on lights or whatever. But that is not the goal. It's just not the goal. - No, and if you put that out there as, hey, this is why you should come to our church. Like, people are gonna find, like you can find better bands. Like, our bands are awesome. But go see Coldplayer, wherever you like, if you want any good music. Like, that's just, it's just not, the product we're selling is not production, right? It's encountering Jesus. And that's a subtle thing to be able to sit down and define and really, really be sure that's a true statement, you know? So that was a-- - Yeah, and it's not great sermons, and it's not cool and, I mean-- - No. - Yep. - Even though we, even though we hope that we're all of those things, it's just not the defining factor in value, yeah. - Yeah, amen to that. So the biggest challenge, you've already identified a few of them, which is great, but take us through the journey these first three years, you know, you're young, 29, now you're 32. What were some big challenges that you had to scale, either personally, which you've shared very generously, or even organizationally or skill-wise, as you've seen this thing double. 'Cause I mean, 1200 tiny, tiny fraction of churches ever get there in Canada, the US, or anywhere. That's a big scale. - Yeah, I think the biggest one's probably the most obvious. Like, I certainly wouldn't say that being young was a disadvantage, you know? I think I'm a firm believer that every strength has a weakness and every weakness has a strength. And so there were some strengths to being young as well, but it did provide a challenge up front. You know, it took some time, I think, for some people. We lost a lot of people that just, you know, they, right up front, they're just, they didn't even give me a chance, which was fine. - Put this kid in charge and we're out. - Yeah, yeah, which that's okay. - How did that feel? - You know, like, it was such a season of destruction in a healthy way that I was really, I was really sheltered. And if that was happening now, I probably would have a harder time with it than I did then. There was a level of, this is so blown up that it's not even my fault. Like if people leave, you know, like there's a level of that. - It didn't personally attach to you the way it would now. - And I was getting, even from, you know, elders and people, colleagues in the ministry and, you know, getting the pat in the back, you know, hey, do your best pal, you know, that kind of stuff. - Yeah, yeah. - So that there's a level of detachment from it that maybe I don't feel now, and that's something we can talk about later, but just that it did inherently allow me to hold it open-handed as you should in any stage of leadership, but just naturally had it at arms length and open-handed and was able to not take some of those things personally. But it was a bit of a challenge being young. I was the youngest person on staff. I was the youngest person on the board. And I would have been younger than 80% of the congregation. So that was certainly a bit of a challenge in that way. Just navigating, okay, what is my strength and what angle do I have here to lead people, you know? So there's the difficult process of just having people embrace the fact that I'm their leader. But then I guess the more difficult process was me embracing the fact that I was the leader. Just realizing and not putting it away and actually owning it. So one of the things maybe that happened when I held it at arms length was that, well, if I don't hold this up and own it, you can't criticize me if I fail and just kind of kept it at arms length and didn't really want to just stand up and say, no, I will own this thing. But I can remember, you know, just going through that season of processing the fact that God called me to be the leader and I need to actually own that. I remember one time this woman, I'd been off the week before I wasn't preaching and I'd preached that day and I came down and this woman who I respect and she's a successful woman, she came to me and she's much older than I am. She said, oh, I just felt so good to have you back in church. You know, I feel when you walked out, I just felt grounded and everything in me wanted to push back and say, oh, oh, don't do that with me. You know, don't let me have that effect on you and I remember God stopped me before I started to say that to her and just say, would you stop putting down the mantle I've given you? You know, just having that feeling of God gave me this platform to be able to actually be his instrument, to help a woman feel tethered and to help a woman feel grounded and like that I keep pushing that away. And so just that mental, just change that had to happen in me where I own the fact that God had called me to this and I was willing to stand up and take the risk of being humbled or humiliated or failing. And that's just something I think growing pains naturally, like as a human being we have. - That's such a good insight, you know, and it's a challenge for all of us because I think the alternative is you develop a false humility. Like it's not me, it's not me, you know, and oh, God gets all the credit and all the glory, which is true, but you can use that to not take responsibility or you think it's all about you. And so it's sort of that humble confidence. It's that, okay, God has actually given me this opportunity, this moment, I need to steward it well and I can actually engage it when people give me feedback, positive or negative. - Yeah, and I think there's just the natural, there's a natural growth that needs to happen than anybody as well. Like, I mean, I have three kids now learning to be a father, but I had a great father growing up. I still, he's still alive and I have a great relationship with my dad who I respect. I remember a couple of years ago though, he had, he was having a kidney removes, a cancer in it. He's got good health here now, we're thankful for that. But remember being in the hospital with him and for the first time seeing my dad, you know, concerned a little bit. Like, I would stop short of saying he was afraid, but there was definitely some, oh man, this is scary on his face. And I remember stepping forward and praying with him and praying for him. And as they wheeled him away, just having that thing in my head of, that was weird. You know, having to be, having to be strong for my father, who up until this point needed him to be strong for me. And there was a level of that I was processing through, you know, just becoming a man, I guess, and leading people who up until that point, I've leaned on them. And so it's just a natural, that was probably the biggest challenge of that whole season, just growing into it and not pushing it away and accepting it, whether I felt worthy of it or not. So that was probably the biggest thing. - That's huge. What about some of the practical challenges you had? I mean, I hope you're not three staff of 1,200 people right now in three locations. So you've had to grow a team, you've had to like figure out scale, you've added locations, you're looking at a major building project now where you're renovating and building and moving and all of those things. So how's that hit you? - That's been, it's obviously been stretching. We're, I think we have 13, 13 staff now. And that's been great. The probably the more difficult leadership challenge has been navigating the staff that were here, just rewiring that relationship where I came in after them and we were colleagues and peers. So that was a bit of a dance. - Yeah, that would be tough, right? - Yeah, but I'll tell you what, this church, this church is a phenomenal church and the team that's been here for a while has just been, just been amazing in embracing how God has chosen to raise us up. So, but there's been a lot of, obviously staff, we haven't had a lot of turnover, but we've had a lot of new people come in. So that's the dynamic there's changed. And it's changed twice over. I mean, even in recent history, we've hired an executive pastor in my relationship with the staff's now one layer removed. So just navigating all those things for the first time and leaning heavy on people who have done it. And that's why your podcast has actually been such a great resource for me is a lot of us don't have direct access into, like I don't have the church down the street who just hired an executive pastor. - No, you are the big church down the street who hired an executive pastor. I mean, you've got someone in another city or that sort of thing, I get that. - I think there are two executive pastors in Atlanta, Canada. So, you know, like that's the-- - And you have half of them. - Yeah, exactly. So, just a lot of just staff change, but I'll tell you what, the information's out there. Like, you can get your hands on, I mean, churches and great leaders are making available the nuts and bolts that you need and the shifts you need to make. So, it's been a lot of just change their staff structure. Change the board structure. - Oh, talk about that. 'Cause I'm convinced that's a sleeper in a lot of church growth lids. Like, it's just the board doesn't know how to be the board because they can't micromanage a bigger church. - Yeah, exactly. Like, I think the easy thing is the down scale. I mean, we shrunk it a little bit, but I don't think the size of the board really is that big a deal. I think the how the board perceived their mandate is everything. Like, and so we shifted from, you know, a church that had been staff and board co-led, basically. - Right. - You know, it was like when they wanted to interject and pole rank, they had that permission. We basically changed that to where we very much are a staff led church board governed. I have an incredible board of people that really they're there because they have something to offer and really contribute. We shift the whole, just basic understanding of what's your job here at this table. Is it for you to represent the church to the leadership and to the vision? Or is it for the you to represent the vision and leadership to the church? And so we shifted-- - It's a great way to think about it. - Yeah, we shifted kind of just how they perceive their role. So that was a big-- - Was that an easy change? - No, it involved a few people being no longer on the board. - Right. - And that was, you know, some of those were just natural moving on and a couple of them were, hey, just this isn't working and we're gonna need you to find another role here at the church. And so some of those early on leadership lessons, I guess, where, you know, again, you know, putting your big boy pants, are you gonna step up and lead this thing or not? So some of those early training ground moments, I guess I had early on. But yeah, just kind of downscaling, shifting the basic understanding of what the board is here to serve to do. And we're really functioning at a high level now as a board where really they're with me discerning where we're headed, what God's saying, who he's calling us to be and empowering and enabling the staff to really run the operation. And that's a huge shift that it just absolutely has to happen to maintain any growth. I think beyond 500 people, I just don't think, I don't think you're ever gonna be able to lead your church out of pace fast enough to maintain the growth if you've got to bring the whole board along for every decision. - Well, I've said to our board at times, like if we wanna be a micromanaging board, we can, but you're gonna have to be here probably five nights a week for two hour meetings. Like basically you have to become the staff because the issues are complex enough that you have to devote time to that. - Yeah, one thing, it's also crucial on the personalities you get on the board. Like one big thing shifted into place for us where I don't know about your church structure and I'm part of the denomination, part of the Wesleyan church. And so we have to have a treasurer with that kind of authority. When our current new treasurer came in, it was just a great, you know, a great personality to bring to the table because here's a guy, he's the CFO of a billion dollar multinational company. - Right. - He thinks at a pace and on a plane that actually he's got to pull it back to help us, right? And so just how huge it is to have the right personalities at the table, it absolutely is everything. And that's been a huge shift is, there's nobody here just filling a seat. Everybody's here for a reason and they bring something unique to the table that we need to move forward. - That's cool, that's cool. So you got that guy to actually serve on your board or as a attorney? - Yeah, yeah, it's been huge, man. Like he's just, and just from a sheer, you know, he was part of a, he's a CFO at a company that basically went from a million dollars to a billion dollar annual industry, you know, in like a short period of time. And so he's been there through the stages of growth. So God's really provided the right personalities and I would suspect for any leader listening, like those people are in your church, like God's not calling you to anything that he wouldn't give you the equipment or the resources to do. And that even, that includes human resources. So I, you know, I would just encourage you to say, like who are those people in my church that can help us lead to where we're going and get them around the table of influence? - Where'd you draw your staff from? Were those mostly internal hires? Did you look externally? - Both, we have raised up several from within and then also I've basically exhausted the pool of my friends and people that I've known. But now we're at a place, you know, we're at a scale and a size where really hiring is becoming a big challenge. And, you know, there's a whole different pace where when your church kind of goes through that thousand barrier, just a different speed and different culture that happens, that, you know, in the Maritimes and Maritime Canada, we don't have a lot of people that have experience working at an organization like that. So it's a big challenge actually to find staff. - Yes, I can relate as a church that has passed that barrier as well. It just, the pickings get slimmer and slimmer all the time. But, you know, like you say, God provides and God certainly does. So here's a question for you. - Is it mostly, and you've mostly answered this already, but is it mostly reactivated Christians you're reaching? Probably not, not in St. John or how are you making inroads into the community? Why do you think your church has grown? - Sure, well, it's both. I would say, you know, if we've grown, we've grown about 600 people average on the weekend. So that's probably, it probably represents 1,200 people that call this our church. - That are new, new people. - Yeah, I would say it's probably about 60, 40%. Like, there's certainly been some transfer growth. You know, we live in an area where churches are, they're closing, sadly. There aren't a lot of churches in this city. We live in a city of about 130,000 people. I think last I checked, there were 60 churches. And on average, those 60 churches average probably 65 people. So, you know, it's not a huge pool of Christians. You're already dealing with, but there has been some transfer growth, but it's been good, by and large. Like, we've got a lot of good people that, you know, they aren't sure topping. We don't really have a culture of that here. - Right. - On top, like you can like, oh, I'm gonna go to North Point this week and elevation next. - What's next on the next? - Yeah, and I'll find out what I like the best. We don't really have that in our culture, which is nice. So there has been some transfer growth, but by and large, I think the majority has been first generation Christians coming in, they're finding Jesus and their lives really are being changed. And it's giving us access to their whole families. Like, it's been amazing to see. And frankly, as someone who's like, I've been a Christian most of my life grew up in it, grew up in the church. And it's sad to say that the gospel can sometimes feel common to us and too familiar. And man, it's been amazing to see the look on people's eyes when they get the gospel. Like it still saves, it still changes lives. And like it's been amazing to see just that fresh eyes, not just individuals, but their whole families getting it and being transformed and the game changing for them. So that's been our bread and butter. People are finding Jesus and their whole families, they're so excited about it, right? Like they see that dads changed and what is that and they all want it. So there's been a lot of that, just the sheer word of mouth has been our best. Yeah, I was going to say, it sounds like word of mouth and personal storytelling and invitations and that's what's done it. Not some crazy marketing campaign or without a doubt. So I mean, that's been our best thing to reach is just having transformed people infiltrate our city and maximizing their relationships. So salvation and transformation has been huge for us. And then just generally, when you come to our church, we hope that you felt like you encountered the Holy Spirit. Right. You know, I think we have a very high retention rate on getting someone to come back. We can get you here. The odds of you coming back are very high, at least right now. Do you know what that is, is that like-- I don't, we just know that when we get like a connection card, we generally got them. Wow. So again, though, it's a different, it's hard to get people to church in our culture. Like we're not in this culture. But once they're there. Yeah, I mean, they're encountering, like living water, they're encountering something, they're not getting anywhere else. And so they want, they keep coming back for it. So just that transcendent encounter, we hope to be able to provide every weekend has, I believe, kept our church growing and retaining the people we have been getting. And then we put a high value on serving the community. You know, we ripped off Andy Stanley's idea of, you know, they, I guess there's his be, be gent or-- Be rich. You're rich, yeah. Yeah, as a partner of church, we do that. Yeah, we do, we do love week. Like last year, we did love week again. It was the second year we did it. We set a goal of $65,000 in an offering to give away, just from our church. And our church crushed it. We gave away about $110,000 that week. And gave away a lot of man hours. And you know, you don't do it for marketing sake, but it does give, it sure does give a lot of good stories and ripples going through the community. We're like, hey, you know about that church that gave and served and gave all that time and gave blood and food and all that stuff. So it just stands out when you're generous. And so that's been huge for us. Another thing I'll say too is we've, we launched last fall. We launched Celebrate Recovery. It's that ministry, I think it's out of Saddleback. I wasn't super familiar with it, but I had a guy have a volunteer here at the church who his life got transformed, addicted to drugs and this was a real meaningful thing for him. He brought it in and said, hey, I wanna leave this ministry and we gave him the green light. And he's got 80 to 100 people every week coming to this. And they're being radically, radically changed. And we're getting access to those whole families too. So it's been, again, just the power of transformation and what that does in a family. We're just seeing that work for us just so tangibly. So Celebrate Recovery has been huge, just reaching into lives that we would have no access into. 'Cause we're buying large a white suburban, upper middle class church at this point. And this has been huge for just getting us access, not just to people who are down and out, but people who just would never darken the doors of church. So it's been huge. So that's been a one big in road we've had. - So I know a lot of leaders listening are, they feel they're isolated. They don't live in a major city, maybe like you, they're in St. John, New Brunswick. If you've ever been in New Brunswick, you know, you gotta drive to really connect with people. You're the largest church in your city. Like you said, two churches in Eastern Canada have executive pastors. So that gives you an idea of the landscape. What are the sources you're using to draw from? And you already hinted at, hey, there's a lot of resources if you Google them, but like, who's inspiring you these days and how are you learning? And how are you getting what you need to step up to the challenges God has put before you? - I'm all over the place, Kerry. I wasn't just trying to give the obligatory, hey, I love your podcast. I legitimately listen to your podcast every week. So I've got podcasts I'm accessing, different writers. Like I obviously look in as from a church leaders at leadership standpoint and look at the ones that are just out there and easy access, like the North points and the elevations, the new springs, they're there. Specifically, I've been doing a little more closer looking at what life church and Hillsong are doing because we're gearing up. We're gearing up to do some multi-site outside of our city. And that's a whole new thing that frankly terrifies me. I don't even know if it's being done in Canada. And so I'm just trying to access any information I can from those guys who I've seen, they're doing it, right? Like you take Hillsong, they've got Hillsong churches in completely different-- - New York, LA, Australia, I mean, all over. - Exactly, so, you know, but I'm looking, I mean, there's enough high profile churches that frankly make their stuff available for guys like me. - For free. - You know, for free. So if you want it, you can get it. So the internet is your friend and, you know, just maximizing that. On a personal level, you know, the guys in at 12 Stone, Kevin Myers, he's been mentoring me and taking, just taking some interest in my story. And so that's been huge, just having someone that has been there, done that to walk it out with you has been really big. But yeah, basically, just wherever I can get gold nuggets from, I'm getting it. I don't really have any specific go-to. I'm just kind of always on the look. - But that's good. And that's what makes it fun. I mean, I remember when I was your age getting into leadership, the internet was dial up still. It was, ooh, that was tougher. - Yeah, it's all there now. But I mean, as far as translating it into, you know, what will work in our context. I mean, our context is very similar to yours there in the, like the Greater Toronto area. It's post-Christian. People don't wake up and say, okay, what church am I going to go to today? It does not happen. Church is not, they're about as likely to wake up and want to go to church as they are to want to go to the mosque. I mean, it's just not happening. So just a very different context. So you do have to filter, you know, what's going to work in my context versus what works in Charlotte, North Carolina or wherever. I guess the battle for me has been battling the, you know, that'll never work here in mentality. And, you know, that's such a lie, I think that we concede to. And it doesn't matter if you're in Canada or not. I think leaders just quickly, if they're scared to do something, it's easy just to say, well, that won't work here. I just try to battle that as much as I can until I've at least tried it or talked to someone who has. So that's just something you constantly battle or that it's never been done. - Right. And do you get that from other voices? Maybe not around your table, but in the neighborhood, they're like, oh, that'll never work here. - Oh, it's rampant, it's in our culture. It's not just in our culture in the church here in Atlantic Canada, it's in the economy, it's everywhere. I mean, it's just a, it's not a booming place. And there's quite a scarcity mindset and a lot of despair. And so, you know, but I feel like that gives our church a great opportunity to shine light and be a city on a hill that we, hey, we don't have that mindset. We don't think everyone's moving away. And we don't think this is a terrible place to live. - I agree, you almost create a culture within a culture, right? - You do. And I feel like that's gaining steam for us that we speak different. We speak differently about New Brunswick and Atlantic Canada. And, you know, we just, we try, we want to have a culture that is shining a positive light in our community. And I feel like we're beginning to have that happen. So, but yeah, just kind of navigating the, that won't work here kind of despair that can set in maybe to a leader. - That's been huge for me. But so far it's been just kind of sifting the internet, looking at models, trial and error. And then intuition, I guess, has gotten me quite a ways. - Yeah. - Yes, gut level, I grew up here. I know these people, I'm one of them. But that's not going to work moving forward or we want to get outside of St. John. So, you know, I've got to start finding other models and putting pen to paper and, you know, figuring out how this is going to work. But so far it's been basically intuition and accessing what's available already. - I know you've got people who are planting churches, listening, any word of advice or encouragement for them? - I would say, man, just to have bold faith, probably the biggest obstacle I'm now facing, like in where we're at as leaders is recapturing the level of open-handed faithfulness I had when I first took over, like to really just, hey, this is God's church. And if he wants to, if he wants it to grow and succeed, he's going to do that. And I am only responsible to say yes to what he's asked me to do. And I had a level of that when I first started that now three years in and with some wins under my belt and more people that are depending on me and more staff that need to paycheck and like there's just more riding on it. It's becoming more difficult to just have that open-handed, hey, I trust God is going to provide and that is why I'll take risks and take steps. So like, wow, I'm finding success to be as big of a test as, you know, as suffering. And, you know, I would say to a church planter, - I agree. - Like take hold of God and keep your hands open and never lose that, hey, this is God's church. The pressure's really on him. My job is to say yes to whatever it is he wants to do and to step forward and bold faith in that. And never leave that, which is easier said than done. But just taking that step where you'll take risks. One of the things Kevin Myers, the guy who's mentoring me is the pastor down at 12 stone, great church. But he always says like risk beyond recovery, but not beyond God's cover like that. - That's good. - Yeah, like you should, you should always, whether you're a church that's just starting in a plant or you're a church that's got success and you're larger, you should always be living in a place where there is calculated risk and God has to show up. You know, like if, if there's no faith. - Oh yeah. - If there's no faith element in what you're doing and nothing squashes your need for faith like more money and more people. And so, you know, like if there's no place for God to have to show up and do something, you're not exercising faith, which means you're not pleasing God and you're not gonna see God do something powerful on your behalf. So, you know, embrace the fact that it takes faith to plant a church and embrace the fact that it takes faith to grow a church. And that is the one thing you never really get to let go of if you're gonna serve God in this. So just that open handed embrace risk and trust God that he loves this church more than you and he loves the people he wants to reach more than you and allow the pressure and the weight of it to sit on him. I guess is how I'd encourage someone that's stepping out, not just planting, but hey, maybe you're taking a step in your ministry, like the pressure's on God. You know, it's his church. So that's, that's probably the biggest encouragement I would give myself today. - Yeah. - And anybody else is just reminding yourself like man, God loves his church and God loves this world. And he is just looking for someone to say yes to whatever he's asking, whether it's crazy or not, he's able. So great faith in him would be the one thing, I guess I would have, I would encourage a planter with. - Well, and I guess that's the same kind of thing for people who are maybe transitioning a church. I know there's some leaders who are like, yeah, I'm cleaning up after a moral failure or I'm cleaning up after a bubble transition or a plateaued or declining church. Pretty good universal advice. Any final thoughts to leaders in that situation? - Yeah, as far as that transition, I would say two things. One, if I was to look back and say, what did we do right? Certainly giving all the glory to God, like there was supernatural favor on us. But I guess recognizing the fact that, you know, like God will give you a pour out grace and perfect measure for the season you're in. And that includes those difficult seasons, right? Like, and so one thing I would encourage a leader who's maybe following a situation like I did is don't dust it under the rug. Don't pretend didn't happen. Don't try to rush past it. Allow the whole weight of it to hit your church and for it to do everything that God wants to do in it. You certainly don't want to sit in it and bask in it for too long, but definitely don't miss the window where God wants to maybe do some transforming work. Just I think the tendency and the rush and we even thought this here was, okay, how can we just zip past this and how can we minimize the damage? How can we contextualize this so it doesn't seem like it's such a big deal? And we chose not to do that. And we chose to own it very publicly. And I feel like that set us up for a lot deeper work that now has put the foundations in our ministry here to hold a bigger weight of influence. So I would say, let the whole thing, let the wrecking ball hit, let it be what it is and then realize that once the dust settles, you have a huge opportunity probably better than any other opportunity to make lasting changes 'cause your people are listening and they're ready. So just let the whole weight of it hit and then ultimately recognize that this is a gift and that God is gonna allow you to lead some major change that frankly a person that had established church would maybe spend years creating the tension to be able to get permission to lead people like you're gonna have the ability to lead people within weeks or months. - Wow, the hat is gold, that's gold. Brent, man, I can't believe the time's gone pretty fast, really fast actually. So tell me a little bit like people are gonna wanna know more about King's Valley Church and to see what you're doing and to connect with you. What's the best place to do that? - Well, we're on the internet. So we're at our website, church websites, www.kingswally.ca and most everything's there. Then I'm on social media. So you can find me at @Brenningersall or I'm @Brenningersall on Instagram or I'll be your Facebook friend, I'm @Brenningersall. So any of those outlets? - We'll link to that in the show notes. Brent, this is amazing. Thank you so much for spending some time with our leaders today. Really appreciate you, man. - Huge privilege to carry. I appreciate it and I appreciate you and all that you're doing. So thank you once again. - Well, it's mutual. Thank you. - Thanks, man. - Don't stories like that just inspire you and we're gonna hear from more church planters. We're gonna hear from people who are in turnaround situations and I just love having those conversations with leaders. If you want more, you can find more in the show notes at carryinguhoff.com/episode83. And coming up next week, I'm gonna sit down with church on the move leader, Whit George. So many of you love the seeds conference. My understanding is I might have a role to play in the next one that happens. They didn't win this year, but they're planning on doing one next year and that would be awesome. And Whit George is gonna talk to us about how to work with family because he and his dad are in the process of a transition into moving Whit into senior leadership, taking over leadership and learning how to lead in a brand new role. So that's gonna be great. In the next few months, we're also gonna hear from Josh Whitehead. He is the executive pastor at Faith Promise Church and that's gonna be great. I'm talking to a couple of people that I've mentored as well. Josh Pazold and Martin Dalind are two people that I've been mentoring personally over the last year. We're gonna talk about with Josh, what a terrible mentor I am and some great stuff he's doing as a young church planner in Rhode Island. And then Martin's done an unbelievable thing where in a very traditional setting has grown his church to one of the largest in his country and has really passed the 200 barrier successfully. And we're gonna break that down bit by bit. Also gonna sit down with Lane Jones, one of the leaders who started North Point Church. Lane actually started it with Andy Stanley. And if you listen to Andy's podcast, Lane is yeah, Lane is that guy. And Lane and I have this fascinating conversation about the early days of North Point. And some of the stories that come out of that, I think will encourage and inspire you so much. And then I'm also talking to church planters, Adam Duckworth and John Garipa and many others in the next little while. And I would just love for you to make sure you don't miss anything. All you have to do is subscribe. It's free, you can subscribe on iTunes, on Stitcher, on TuneIn Radio. And here's to the next million downloads. Thanks for sharing, thanks for being generous, thanks for being awesome. I hope you really enjoyed today and we'll pick it up next Tuesday. How does that sound? And I hope in the meantime that this has helped you lead like never before. (upbeat music) You've been listening to the Carry Newhof Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) You