The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 080 – How to Have An Awesome Marriage AND Still Be An Awesome Leader. An Interview with Dr. Kim Kimberling
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 80 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff, and I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. And today, we're gonna get personal. We're gonna talk about marriage. That's right, your marriage, and how's it going? Really, that's a question I love to ask, you know, 'cause people are like, how's it going? It's going great, it's like, how's it going though? No, really, really, like how's it going? And usually when you ask that second question and people open up, man, it's amazing to discover that, hey, a lot of us have a lot in common. Sometimes it's not going so great. My guest today is Dr. Kim Kimberling, and he is a counselor who is specialized in marriage. He's got a book on marriage called "Seven Secrets to an Awesome Marriage." He works at a life church, good friends with Craig Grishel, and has helped a lot of people, particularly people in ministry, put their marriage back together again. You know, we talk about this a little bit in the interview, but I just think leadership and particularly ministry makes marriage harder. And every once in a while, I guest on someone else's podcast. I mean, I do this every week, but sometimes I get asked to do it, and as my schedule permits, I'll jump on other people's podcast. Kim actually has his own podcast. And I talk about my marriage in that podcast. So we'll link to that in the show notes. It's karaenuhoff.com/episode80, but I did a couple of episode shorter ones for him. So if you're interested in that, I tell more of my story there, but I just want to say to you, you know, like honestly, Tony, my wife and I, we celebrated 25 years last year. We are so excited that, frankly, we made it. There were times where honestly in about a decade into my leadership, we were just hanging on by a thread. And we'd both be the first to tell you the reason we are still married today and happily married, I would add, is because of Christ. And I know that sounds really spiritual and it sounds really simplistic, but it's absolutely true. We both hung in there. And that's why I learned principles like, you know, eventually your emotions catch up to your obedience because if we at the low points of our marriage had based our decisions on feelings, there would have been a very, very different outcome. But by the grace of God, you know, we prayed, we went to counseling, we got some help. We got out of a crazy season of life and, you know, all these years later are having the time of our lives. And so when I bring you a podcast about marriage, it's not like, oh, look at the 1700 things I did right. And you should be as good as me. Nope. I've made just about every marriage mistake in the book and probably continue to make a lot, but by the grace of God, our love and our relationship are deeper than ever. And I'm still as in love with her as the day, well, actually more than the day I met her. And that was pretty deep, it was love at first sight for me. So that was pretty cool. In fact, we are spending an entire month away out of the country. We're gonna go away for a belated 25th wedding anniversary to Australia for the month of May. So we are so excited about that. We're in the final planning stages of that trip right now. So if you're in a tough spot, I just say, hey man, like hang in there and, you know, get the help you need and there is hope. So that's my little sermon for the day. It's just truth, but that is true. And I hope this really encourages you and wherever you find yourself, just know that you can find hope. So before we get into the interview, just a big shout out and a thank you to everybody who continues to spread the love on this podcast. We really, really appreciate you guys do make it amazing. And the podcast today is brought to you by Rethink Leadership, the amazing conference happening in Atlanta just over a month from now. Hey, don't miss out. Okay, it's gonna sell out soon. So make sure you go to RethinkLeadership.com and join some world-class leaders. I mean, I'm so excited about this conference. We are gonna have Jeff Henderson, Pete Wilson, Cara Powell, Leontz Crump, John Acuff, Reggie Joiner, myself, it's gonna be packed with, I think, great practical content on helping you lead better all the time. And it's not just about Sunday, it's about how to lead better on Monday. And you can still get a great rate to get in. Just go to RethinkLeadership.com. It's for senior pastors only. I would love to see you there. And we would also love for you to lead as well at home as you do at church. And with that in mind, here's my conversation with Dr. Kim Kimberling. Well, I'm really excited to have Dr. Kim Kimberling on today's podcast. Kim, welcome. - Thank you, Karen. It's great to be here. - Hey, you are the author of fairly new books, Seven Secrets to an Awesome Marriage. And you and I had a chance to talk about that on this TV show I host up in Canada called "100 Huntley Street." Had a great time there. And I thought, well, let's have an extended conversation together on the podcast. So I'm really glad that you're here, Kim. - Thank you. It was, you know, it was a lot of fun. I think we connected well. And I think we have a kindred heart. And so it was, it's great to be here. - And Craig and Amy Grishell wrote the foreword to your book. - They did. Craig has been such a blessing in my life and to be a part of life church. So it was nice of him to do that for us. - Yeah, Craig's been a guest on one of our episodes as well. I think it was episode 51. We'll link it to the show notes. Just a really great interview with Craig and God used his life powerfully. So let's rewind to you. How did you get interested in helping people with their marriages? 'Cause you could have done a lot of things with your life. Why did you land there? - When I went there, you know, I always knew God had called, well, I say always, from about 12 years old, I knew God had called me. And I had this growing up, we had a, I had an aunt that was a missionary in African. She would come home and I'd kind of help her and she'd show these pictures of African villages. And I kept thinking, oh God, please don't send me there. And so I just, and so I kind of decided to get out of my undergraduate degree was business. And I said, God, I am going to be the best businessman in the world for you. I will do. And you know, I ran and ran and ran and finally I said, I give up. And about that time a guy had come into my life that was doing Christian counseling and he and I really connected. And he said, have you ever thought about Christian counseling? And honestly, I had not. And I thought, well, yeah, that makes sense. Why don't, what if I could do that? And that seemed to be what God wanted me to do. And so the marriage thing was entering, starting out I was young and I loved working with kids and past, but the more I worked with kids, the more I was working with their parents and the more I realized if these marriages are better, these kids are going to have a better life. And God used that to just transition me. And I still see probably 10% of my practice kids, but most of it is marriage now. And trying to help those people have good marriages because that helps those kids have a great environment to grow up in. - Yeah, you know, that's a really good heart too. And so your full-time clinical practice then? - Yes, well, I had balanced that between counseling about half-time and then also marriage, which is our ministry, developing tools and things that we use with awesome marriage. So it's a good balance. And I'm able to, the fun thing about being a marriage counselor, I can come up with an idea for awesome marriage and I can field test it in the counseling room and say, hey, does this really work? Does this really make a difference from somebody? So a lot of what is part of awesome marriage certainly has come out of being a counselor for all these years. - No, that's fantastic. And, you know, I like your preventative approach to rather than just doing, you know, recovery. So how do we make your existing marriage better? It's a little bit like often, you know, pastors are up trying to raise money for a capital campaign or operating costs or whatever. And what we learned a number of years ago is if you can just help people win with their money day-to-day, that becomes way easier, right? In other words, if you teach people how to budget, how to save, eventually the giving takes care of itself if you implant, you know, this vision for generosity. But if people are upside down in sideways and underwater in their finances, it's really hard for them to give. Similarly, if people aren't a really bad place with their marriage, it's just gonna be very difficult to raise kids. - Absolutely. - And a little bit more because, I mean, so many of the listeners of this podcast are leaders in the local church. A lot of us follow what's happening at Life Church. - So how did you and your family get involved at Life Church? - We were in another church which we really loved and Life had started doing some Saturday night experiences. And so one night, I was gonna have me add something and it said, you know, I think I'm gonna go and go to Life Church and just visit. We had been hearing things about it. And this was, I guess a number of years ago, probably 16, 17 years ago. So I get home that night and she didn't wanna talk about anything except this church and what she experienced there and just so much. - And this is your wife? - This is my wife. And so I said, well, I'll go with you next week. And so we went through this process of kind of transitioning from one to the other. So we've actually been at Life Church about 16 years. It was about five years old when we first came. So we've been blessed to watch it grow. It's been fun to be a part of it. Craig has been a valued friend. Him, you know, writing the intro of the book was great. But what we do now is try to invest in marriage. Craig asked me just by a number of years ago and I said, what would your dream for marriages be at Life Church? And I looked at him and said, I wanna zero divorce, right? And he looked at me and said, okay, how do we do that? And so we try to help them with developing culture for marriage. We do, I do events, marriage events. And one of the things that has worked so well with the structure of Life Church because we're so small group oriented is that we always, when we do an event, we're the fundamental people in the small groups and try to get them to begin to do life with other couples. And that, I think, is the way we change the culture of a church into a real focus on marriage and to build healthy marriages. And it's contagious. And that's what I want people to see. I want people to come into Life Church and just see visibly see healthy marriages. And I think that attracts people because, unfortunately, in our culture, you don't see that very many places anymore. No, you don't see a lot of healthy marriages. Or you see people who stay together, but they're just hanging in, they're just doing time, right? - Yes, you know, that's interesting. I was thinking, as I was doing this event we did in October and I was thinking, you know, it's going through the book 'cause it was based on the book. One of the things I left out that I really want to talk more about either in a rewrite on the book or add something to, and that is where couples just settle. It's just like, okay, this is as good as it's gonna get. You know, we don't fight much, but they can't exist together. And to me, it's just not having a marriage. It's just selling yourself far short of what God has for you. - You know, I'm so glad you raised that. That's been a pet peeve of mine for years. I saw a lot of leaders, when I was a young leader, hit 50, and it's just kind of settled. You know, riding things out until whatever that magic number was when they could collect a modest pension and sort of cash out. And I thought, I don't ever want that to be me, but actually we did a kicked off 2016 with a brand new series at our church called Do In Time. That was as good as it gets. And we were talking about marriage. We're talking about work like people, actually today on the day that we're recording this, I had a friend drop by. And I mean, he has an app on his phone that counts down to his retirement date. - Oh my gosh. - Literally, literally. And he knows it to the day. And I'm like, I don't, you know, I guess I love what I do. And he and I have those conversations. But you're right, people just settle. And maybe your issue, you know, if you're listening to this podcast is not, you know, oh, my marriage is in such a crisis. And if it is, we'll get some practical advice, but you're just kind of bored. And, you know, you've settled. And that can happen five years after you get married, two years, you know, I've friends who are much younger than me, you know, in their 20s. And they've got friends who are married two or three years and their marriage is on the rocks already. And so it seems to be a universal issue. Now, shifting gears a little bit, Kim. Here's a question for you. I've always wondered this and I'm excited to ask you this, but do you think church leaders have it harder in marriage than others do? Or like, do maybe leaders have it tougher in marriage than people who wouldn't necessarily be in a leadership position? Or is it just marriage that stuff? 'Cause I think sometimes, you know, those of us in church leadership go, man, I just feel like we get attacked more or maybe leaders just do, like, what's the deal with that? What's your take on that? - Yeah, I would probably answer yes to all three statements. I think church leaders, leaders in marriage in general. I think with leaders, certainly the demands on the leader, time demands, not knowing how to say no. One of the things that actually Craig said in a message a number of years ago that just really hit me says every time you say yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else. And he said, for him, and this has been true for me too, it was usually my spouse or my family that I was saying no to because I was saying yes to something that was gonna take me away from them, that I was gonna do good things. I wasn't gonna do, you know, I wasn't gonna strip cards every night, it was like, I'm going to a meeting, I'm gonna speak, I'm gonna counsel with someone that's really struggling. - You're doing work for Jesus. - Absolutely, and to realize, I think so. So I think that certainly is something that leaders have to learn is how to balance that. And the other thing you kind of hit on is, I think the enemy's attacking that, you know, I think from my perspective as a Christian counselor right now, that's where the enemy's after, as Christians, he's hitting our marriages hard. And he's hitting us in all kinds of different ways. And if he can crumble our marriages, I mean, that crumbles so much of our culture, our society, and has a huge effect on the church. - Yeah, yeah, it's funny, you know, I listen too, it's not funny, but I mean, it's significant that I listen to a lot of people's stories. And often their spiritual journey takes a wrong turn after the pastor had an affair, or, you know, had to leave because his marriage fell apart. And often, you know, these were people with real ministries. You know, God was using their ministries, and then the enemy seems to get in and things fall apart. I totally see that. And, you know, I once heard it said that Satan can't steal our salvation. So instead, he just tries to steal our joy. - Yeah. - Yeah, I wonder, like, do you ever see that in marriage where, you know, joyless marriages just seem to show up? - Oh, yeah, I think it, yes, and I think it can happen at any stage of marriage. I think you don't, it's what you invest in it. And, you know, the answer is always so simple, but it's so hard. And the answer really is to help the marriage is God first, bow second, but we don't play that out. And by God first, I mean, like, you know, every day, it's like, okay God today, I give you my eyes, and I give you my ears, and I give you my words, and I want those to honor you. And I want those to honor my marriage and my spouse. And then what does it mean to be a servant to my spouse today? And I think those, honestly, if you're gonna have a healthy marriage and a great relationship with the Lord, you almost have to enter those questions every day because there are culture today, when you walk out that door, there's so many distractions. And not that all of them are bad, but there's a lot of bad ones out there too. So that's interesting advice. God first, a spouse second. Where do you see most people actually ordering things? Is it me first, a spouse second, God third, like work first, kids first, what are some normal, 'cause you have the benefit, right? I mean, I get up there and I speak to people every weekend or at conferences, to leaders, and you know, I'm kind of basing it on comments and email exchanges and anecdotal stuff, but I mean, you're basically in the lab every week. So if people get that order wrong, are there profiles? Like do you see, okay, you know, there's a type of person that always puts this first or another type of person will put that first. Just walk us through that, 'cause I think that could be very helpful. - I think probably the big thing that we all struggle with is putting ourselves first. I mean, I think that the selfishness, I mean, and that's certainly my biggest struggle is putting me first, and when I do that, it crumbles everything. So I think just being, because we live in a me first culture, everything that is geared is me first. So that's a big struggle of really making that decision, okay, I'm gonna put God first. And how do I put God first? It's interesting, I had a guy a few months ago and he was really struggling in his marriage, and he was almost like the light bulb turned on when he was in the counseling room. He said, I have done a good job of putting God first, but I missed it somewhere 'cause my business is second, and my spouse is not, she's down the line. And it was a revelation for him, okay, what I need to do to put her, where God wants me to put her. And so I think as Christians, maybe we at least go through the motions that we think of putting God first, and that's why I think we have to be real purposeful about it in really each day giving God everything I have. If my mind is not focused on the things God wants me to, I've got a million other things I can focus on. - And, you know, I'll go ahead, I don't wanna cut you off. - Well, and I think so when I do that, when my relationship with God is good, it's really easy for me to put Nancy where she or God wants her to be in number two. And when my relationship with God is off, she can go down the list real quickly. - You know, and I appreciate you sharing that story of the business guy who said, I think I'll put God first in my business second. I think one of the occupational hazards in ministry is that often we think we're putting God first, but we're actually putting ministry first. Have you seen that? - Absolutely, and I think there's such a distinction in that, absolutely. - Walk us through that. Help us understand what's the distinction between putting Christ first, God first, and ministry first by mistake. - I think putting God first is really more about my personal relationship with him in each day connecting with him on that level where it changes me, it keeps me changed, it keeps me focused on him. So it goes with what you see, what you hear, what you read, all those kinds of things that you try to focus on what God wants you to do. And so when we do that, then it makes a huge difference. And then if we put, I think the problem is we associate ministry with our relationship with God. And it is in a way, but if you look in Scripture, I mean, I can't find anything in Scripture that says anything different than God first, about second. - And it doesn't say love your ministry with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. - Exactly, there was, I think it was, I think I heard Tommy Nelson, somebody I heard do a story one time and they talked about a guy and he was a great pastor, growing pastor, church growing, all this kind of stuff. And he was going off to lead something with an FCA group that night, they'll ship a Christian Halflynch group, a huddle group. And so the picture was his family and his wife are standing on the porch and he's getting in the car and his wife says, what about our huddle group? Your first ministry has to be your family and your wife. And if it's not, then everything gets out of order. - Okay, so we're gonna have some fun here. - Okay. - This is free therapy for all of us today and thank you for doing this. But we got the counselor on the line. Why, 'cause I think I've been guilty of that in seasons where ministry and God have gotten confused. And ministry is first, I may be second 'cause I'm innately selfish, my family might be third. And I'm also, listen, a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are A-type driven people. And we say, hey, our ambition is surrendered to Jesus. It's, you know, Christian ambition and all that. But I think that point about ministry first is probably owning more people than we want to admit. Why do we put ministry first? Help us, doctor. - I don't. - Figure out why do we do that? Why do I do that? - I don't think we make for this. Well, one, I think there's a payoff. - Okay. - There's a huge payoff. It's if somebody, if I stay in extra hour and counsel somebody and we have a good session and they walk out and, boy, this really helped me. That was so good. I'm so glad we came tonight. Thanks for staying with us. Well, my parent, my family's at home waiting dinner on me. You know? And I think as a pastor, you get those payoffs. You go to the hospital to visit someone and they're so thankful that the pastor showed up and you pray with them. - And you're supposed to take out the garbage. - Yeah, you are affirmed until you go home in exactly. It's like, where have you been? And the kids, I need help with the homework. Can you go and do that? And I'll take care of this. And then we got to get them to bed. You realize how late it is and they've got to get up in the morning. And so you walk into that and it's so real. And that's not a lot of payoff sometimes. - Yep. - But that's part of doing life. That's part of being married. That's part of being a father or a husband. And those things that don't give us as much of a payoff are part of the big, but when we do those, the payoff comes. I guess is what I'm saying. It may not come up that night. - Oh, thank you for that. That's so true. The truth's ugly sometimes, isn't it? When you're honest, and I've always found, I don't know where you stand on the whole love and respect thing, but I know as a guy, I really appreciate respect. And I get it at work. And it's not, listen, my wife is very respectful and so on. My kids are very respectful. Fundamentally, they're very respectful. But often I would find, particularly when the kids were young and the house was busy, that I would get more respect at work than I would feel like I got more respect and more reward at work than I did at home. And sometimes I think I even ventured into the point, well, I'll just work a little bit longer because I wanna avoid that emotional state of walking at home and having to participate and all of that. I'm not proud to admit it, but do you see that? - No, absolutely. And all of that's me speaking from experience. It was one time in our stage in our marriage and I was doing a lot of things besides being at home. And I was just, Nancy was saying, "Casha need you here, you're not helping the kids." She was kind of pouring her heart out what she needed. And I said, "Yeah, but when I'm there," I said, "Those people really love me. "They are for me." And she looked at me and she said, "They don't live with you. "They don't really know you." And I thought, I thought you were so right. They see me in the council role and yeah, she sees me in everything. So it's something we definitely work on. And I think as a leader, letting your spouse know how important she is, if I've got a day and I am back-to-back with patients all day long and she knows that and somewhere in there, I just send her a text that says, "I miss you, I love you." It does so much for her. It's those unexpected things where I take time. She says, "Because she knows then, "I took time out of a packed day to think about her." It's different than showing up on Valentine's Day and birthdays and inversities, which we all need to do, but those extra things I think mean a lot to our spouse. And I think it, one thing that I've prayed pretty consistently is God helped me to let her know how much I love her today. And God has been so faithful to that, to prompt me with a text or a call or a compliment, something, I just think it's one of those things we put in God's lap and he shows up and you think, "Wow, that's so cool." And just to see the difference in her count and that's when I do those things. - You know, that's not bad for a prayer. Actually, if you're trying to put God first, spouse second and yourself somewhere down the list, God just helped me give me an opportunity to show her how much I love her today. Starts with God, I can't do this alone. Put your spouse ahead of yourself. That's a good prayer. I'm gonna adopt that one. That's great. - It is because if I start out, if I think, okay, I'm gonna do something good for today and I walk out the door and I haven't said that prayer, I probably walk back in the door that evening and I haven't even thought about it. But when I say that prayer, it's like, okay, these people are about three, it's gonna be five minutes late for your appointment. What do you get at that time? Once you text or once you call her. And so, and I probably would have thought it would otherwise. - That's a good, do you find with couples, I mean, I've read the five love languages as I'm sure you have. In mind, mind probably is words of affirmation. My wife is quality time. Is there something to that where you've gotta appreciate somebody the way they wanna be appreciated? - I think so. I think Gary Chapman just hit on something there that really seems to be valuable because I suggest couples read that together a lot. And everybody seems to identify that the hard part comes and I had a couple say that this week. And his love language is acts of service and hers is quality time. And so he spent, she was gonna be late that night. He cleaned the house, he did all this stuff and she walks in and goes, oh, thanks. And he said, you know, if they'd been reversed and she'd never, I would have been doing cartwheels. And I said, and he said, it just showed me there that it's the quality time. And I've got to carve out that time for her. That's how she feels loved. And so I think there's a lot of truth in the five love languages in understanding what your spouse is in. And 'cause usually we do things for a spouse that are love language. You know, mine is really words of affirmation and I am really good at giving that to other people and to Nancy, but she's just like Tony, hers is quality time. And so I've got-- - And I have acts of service too. So you know, to me cleaning the house is a big deal or getting everything. And I see the thing, my challenge is I think that's awesome and she comes home and goes, yeah, thanks. - Yeah, exactly. - What, what am I mud? Like, but you know, that's my own garbage. - This is kind of funny, but I had a good friend that we'd talked about the five love languages and his wife was acts of service. So he told me one time he said, he said, I'm gonna tell you this. He said, when I cleaned the toilet, we have the best sex ever. (laughing) Because hers is acts of service, you know. So it's funny how that plays. - That's great. - Yeah, that's so true, right? That's so true. - Exactly, she's so loved. - We still cared for it, he did something that meant so much to her. - So again, because, you know, you've got years of experience with this and you deal with this every day. What are some marriage killers? I mean, are there a few characteristics that when present just create a poison and a relationship? - You know, I do think, I guess there's probably a number of things. - Yeah, go ahead. - I think we get things out of balance, I think I think in that because, and maybe that goes back to our priorities, but I think it's hard in our culture to keep things in balance. And if our marriage doesn't have the priority, it needs to, we find ourselves drifting apart. And I think it's so easy for a couple to drift apart in our culture today. And the farther you drift apart, the more vulnerable you are to an affair or something else that's gonna take you further away from your marriage. So I think making sure you have enough time there, I think the way we treat each other, you know, nothing just kills me when we're out to dinner or something. And I see a couple just berating each other or one berating another person, you know, that-- - And you can tell even if you can't hear it. - Exactly, you can see it. And I think that to know that I'm married to someone that is a Christ follower, that Christ has claimed, and my role is to treat her the way Christ wants me to treat her. Now, I'm not perfect at that. And I've learned a lot in that. But I think that because if you don't show that to your spouse, you know, women have so many options. Women have, you know, where guys usually get in trouble, they get a affairs or porn or whatever. Women need that conversation, that relationship, or they can get that pretty healthily met with a friend, with other women. But that's what I tell women. I say, they say, well, yeah, I've got friends to talk about. And I say, yeah, but your first choice for conversation has to be your spouse. You've got to get worked. So when something comes up with its concerns, I'm going to share whatever, the first thing you think about is telling me your spouse. And the spouse has got to make the atmosphere of their word. That's where she wants to come to. - Yep. - So distractions and, you know, I think would be another thing. You know, we talked about it in a deal we did for awesome marriage podcasts when we were just talking about the access people have to the internet now. And kids with iPods, it's seven years old. So I mean, we have so many different options that can take us away from marriage. And I think- - And just so listeners know, this is a podcast exchange. So you interviewed me for your awesome marriage podcast, and we'll link to that in the show notes. - Yeah. - I just thought it'd be great to have you back and talk about that. Yeah, so I talked about, you know, internet and distractions and how that impacts parenting, but it really impacts you. Because, you know, you've got all these options at your fingertips 24 hours a day. - Yeah, and, you know, our culture continues to try to tell us that pornography is okay. And I've never had a wife tell me that it was okay. Well, I hear him say, why does he look at that when he's got me? And I think that's a fundamental question with pornography that every woman wonders when her husband's into it. Plus the way it affects our minds and our, you know, it's not, it's harmful. And it just weighs us and it destroys our relationships. It changes the way we look at women. - I've seen mainstream literature now, like not specifically sponsored or written by Christians. That basically ours, and I've taught on this at our church, it connects us. But that basically say there's a generation of young men who are having trouble actually having sex with a physical woman because of how porn has rewired their brains. That it's got the same impact as a drug addiction does. And because you need a greater and greater high when you're actually with a woman, you just can't actually, you know, be aroused even to the point of an orgasm because you've taken your mind into places that don't actually exist in real life. Have you seen that? - Absolutely, I've seen that. - Okay. - I've heard that, I think that's true. And I think that something that I've even, in counseling some younger guys or teenagers tried to help them see that it's kind of hard for them to grasp the truth in that sometimes because they think, oh, it's okay, and it'll be-- - Everybody's doing it, which is probably true. Everybody is, or almost everybody. - But I think it does, and it affects us. And I think he goes back to, okay, okay, God gave us sex. So it's not like that when a couple has sex, God turns around and goes, oh my gosh, I can't believe they're doing that again, you know what I mean? - Which some of you may believe the way you were raised, it's like we're not even allowed to have sex or have fun having sex. - And so what we look at is this gift and okay, I believe that God gave us everything we need to have incredible sex with the bodies he gave us. We don't need porn, we don't need whatever tools, whatever it is, we just don't, I don't think we need those things. And so I think it's for couples, we talk a lot about redefining what's the sexual relationship, what really it is. And I think one thing that couples seem to kind of get is the fact that if you're both Christians, the possibility there is, and I talked about this in the book, it's though it's that spiritual connection, a mingling of souls, it's a Hebrew word. And I think you have the possibility of not only the physical and emotional, but that spiritual connection in the sexual relationship. And that is I think the height of the sexual relationship. And it's hard to, it's not all the things I can just say, go do one, two, three, four, and kind of even explain what it is. But I've talked to couples about it, and they've come back and they said, we got it. We knew, we know what you're talking about now because we experienced it. - Yeah, you probably crossed some wires for some listeners who grew up in a Christian church, it's like what sex is spiritual? Yes, it is, it's not devoid. And I think the longer you're married, the more you understand that. There is, I love your phrase, the commingling of souls. And I think that's what it is, you, you, well, I mean, the scripture says you become one, that is a spiritual thing, that's not just a physical thing. - Absolutely, good civilization. - This wasn't in the list of questions we had talked about, but I'm just curious, it's come up a bit already in the podcast. Why do people have affairs? I mean, it happens all the time, and I'm sure there are listeners who have had affairs, you know, people who are tempted right now, you're like, my life would be so much better if I could hook up with whatever her name or whatever his name is. What moves you to the point of having an affair? I'm sure there are several things. It's probably is, but I think probably most of them start with believing a lie, that this is better than what you have, and I think where it becomes, where it sinks in and people take that move is when they're not growing their marriage. If they're in that marriage like we talked about, where you're just kind of stagnant, and you're just kind of existing together, then I think you've got more vulnerability when someone new at work is there, or you meet someone. And so I think we have lived in a culture now, that this was last TV season, I think, but there was something that USA Today had, and it talked about all the shows that year, and how many of them were gonna have an affair in them, and it was like 75% of the shows, and so the-- - Wow, really? - They're useless. - So this is what we're watching. - Yeah, and it's usually not portrayed in there as bad. Usually, you know, this drove me crazy. Last year we were watching a show that we really liked, and the woman was getting ready to have an affair, and I was written for, because my emotions had gone with her and this guy, and her husband's a jerk, and the deal, and I said, "Yeah." And I'm thinking, "Oh my gosh, if I can go there, "how easy is it for someone else to go there?" - Yeah, and the other thing I've heard too, Kim, which is interesting, is that, you know, when was a lot, and I can't remember, the last scene I saw were a married couple had sex. - Right. - On TV, right? Like, married people going to bed together, and showing anything, not that you should be showing sex scenes on TV, that's a whole other debate, but, I mean, if you're watching popular TV or movies, a married couple being in bed is weird, even creepy, whereas an unmarried couple having sex is normal. It's just, it's a completely distorted sense of sex today. And you're right, so your point is, that that is what we celebrate in our culture, and so we assume that when we repeat it in our lives, it will have a positive effect, which it really does. And so we believe in it. And I think, you know, I've had guys who've had affairs, and they've just been convicted, they've shared it with their spouse, they want to make their marriage work. And most of them say, I had no idea what the consequences were going to be. I had no, I had a guy a couple weeks, he said, I did not want to hurt her like this, I had no idea that I was going to hurt her like this. - But he did. - But he built it in the lie, yeah, yeah, yeah. - No, that's interesting. Justin and Tricia Davis were on, I think it's episode 33, we'll link to it in the show notes. Anyway, we'll get the episode number right. On my podcast, talked about their affair and rebuilding their marriage. And there's also an article, if I can find it, it was written in the New York Times, about three or four years ago, about a woman who, again, not a Christian, just a mainstream article, who talked about the impact of having an affair, and how it devastated her life, and not to believe that it's a better reality. And again, not coming at it from a Christian perspective, but I think you're right, we fail to think. And in the moments by the grace of God, I've been faithful to my wife in 25 years, but when those moments come where you think, I wonder if it would be better if, I just think about the story I'm writing for my kids, what that would be like to stand up in one day in front of the church, the elders, and you're like, I don't even want to take my mind there anymore because that's horrendous, and certainly far worse than anything I have to go through to make whatever little period we're in better in our marriage. And I think too, for the leaders they're listening, and pastors like you have churches that are vibrant and growing, what that does to your church, if the pastor falls. With my bet, if Craig is such an incredible example of the things he puts in place to not go there, but someone like if Craig had an affair, the fallout, the ripple effect in the Christian community would be devastating, and Satan and nothing more. - Oh, absolutely, and you end up leading a podcast, you have a blog that has millions of readers, and there's another one, there's another one. - Exactly. - And you plan to the cynicism of all of that, so go have a date night with your wife, it's a lot cheaper than an affair, a lot cheaper than an affair. So I think it's not buying into our culture, it's keeping our focus right, and it's being purposeful about your marriage every day. I told Nancy this not too long ago, I said, the temptation for me earlier years to porn was there, some things like that, and I told you know, what we have built in our marriage and what we have like God developed in our sex life, those things aren't even attractive anymore, and I think you can get there. I think we can get, it's like, I would not give up what we have for that ever. And so I think it's, I don't think I've ever talked to somebody, it said, yeah, I walked out the door one day and said, I think I'll go have an affair, it's, they began taking baby steps. So you end up talking to that person or meeting it, they're always at the coffee bar at the same time. So I get there or you find yourself, that person comes to our office on Wednesdays, so I think I wear this today. And it's those baby steps that we don't think of as being that bad, but those are the steps that lead to having an affair. - It starts in the mind. - It does, it does. - It starts in the mind. - It does, yeah, somebody I heard one time and day in, we're comparing it to a tennis game. Somebody loves a ball over or you get a lot of it back or not, well, if you love it back, then you've kind of responded and they love it back and all of a sudden, you know, you shouldn't have a dinner with somebody. - Wow, yep. And that's the importance of having boundaries. You know, we've been talking about Craig Grishel, Andy Stanley and her good friends. - Yes. - Andy did this huge series years ago called guardrails and you know, it's just putting, and I have that, like I generally do not meet with women, not generally, but like specifically do not meet with women alone. - Right. - Unless I'm married to her, so that's like one person. - Oh my goodness. - Right, yeah, thank goodness. And, you know, in my office, there's a glass door. So if there is a meeting, someone's on the outside of that glass door and we have that conversation, but they sound stupid, but on the other hand, you know, I'm 25, almost 26 years in, really, really appreciate love and adore my wife and wouldn't want to trade that relationship for anything. And by the grace of God, I haven't so far. So we have been in marriage holes, Tony and I, my wife Tony and I, how do you climb out of a hole when you're in one, in your marriage? Because I know there's some listeners who are going, "Okay, I'm recovering from a divorce." That's probably an affair. That's probably a whole other podcast. But like a lot more are probably just in that rut or that tough spot where they're like, "I think the only option is divorce or I'm just so bored. "I don't know how I got myself into this." How do you get out of a rut or a hole in a marriage? What are some tips that can help people get started? - Well, I think the first thing you've got to do is take divorce off the table. I think we put that on the table way too easy today. There's more divorces in the first year of marriage now than ever before in the United States. So people bail really easily now. So the whole commitment thing. And so I think you've got to take, you know, our roughest time was probably around year six. And this is a time right after our son was born. He was probably six months old and Nancy was just struggling. She wasn't sure she loved me. She didn't know what to do, all this kind of stuff. And God led her to a Christian woman. It was just a godly thing. And so Nancy tells this woman the story. Well, she told it to the woman like it was somebody else, not really Nancy. And this woman obviously knew it was her. - I have a friend who. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so the council as I remember was, you know what, God doesn't want you to get a divorce. God wants to bless you marriage. He wants to make it worse. You need to take divorce off the table. And Nancy came home that night and we talked and we took divorce off the table. And that was a huge step for us. It was a huge step for me because I was scared to death. She was gonna leave and I am orderly. And so when we did that and we've never put it back on, that in itself has been huge. So if you're in that hole because of our culture, people get divorced so much, it's easy to keep that on the table. And I think if you can at first just say, okay, we're taking the divorce off the table. Now what do we have left? What do we have to deal with? And so a lot of times you're gonna need counseling or to go to a pastor and a pastor may refer you to someone. A lot of times if we're in some of those holes, we do need help. - Oh yeah. - Because just some accountability, you know, one of the things that I try to get couples to do. And I think Craig asked me this one time, if there's only one thing, you can get a couple doing counseling that makes a difference. What is it? And I said, if I can get them to pray together. And so that makes a difference, it connects us. And, you know, there's a lot of couples that never pray together. A lot of couples that are scared together. And so we kind of go through a process. Okay, you guys are both concerned about your marriage. You both are saying you want it to work. You don't have to pray out loud together, but just hold hands and pray silently together about your marriage. You know, what it would start at the comfort level that you're comfortable with. But getting couples to pray together is a huge step. And I think that's a huge step out of the hole is just taking that step. And then you can begin to work. Then I think it changes things that are, you choose your battles better. And you begin to say, yeah, I can really let this go. That's not that big a deal. And then it surfaces the things, okay, these really are the things we need to work on. So, you know, our communication is not good. So let's learn some communication tools and let's begin to do that. Sometimes it's helpful to take an assessment that kind of looks at, you know, your strength and weaknesses in marriage and then focus on, yeah, we need to really learn to resolve conflict better. That's where we get in trouble. And so we go into work on those things. - You know, it's so interesting when I hear you describe that. And I agree and my wife and I have been through all of those conversations, you know, to get to this point in our marriage. We've had to look at everything. And fortunately, I have not had to deal with unfaithfulness or, you know, adultery. But, you know, sometimes when I think about that as a leader, I think I do all those things at work every day. Like, you know, you're fighting to preserve a relationship or you need some new skills or the communication system is broken down. And I will attack that with energy at work. But I come home and I'm like, I just expect it to be automatic. And sometimes I think if I took a fraction of the energy that I pour into leadership and poured it into being a better husband, we would have a better marriage. And my wife would be better served. And so maybe the challenge to leaders is, take the zeal that you have for your work and throw it into your home life. Because it will get better if you take that level of energy and skill. And usually, you know, by the time five, six, seven o'clock rolls around and you head home, you, you're exhausted, you're tired, your defenses are down. And you just wanna relax. The reality is you need to save some of your best energy for home. - One thing that I guess my price suggested to me back when the kids were a little bit, they said, "On your way home, whatever your commute is, "take time to pray and leave everything in your day "with God and then begin to anticipate "when you walk in that house, what are the needs?" When the kids were little, usually she needed help with me. Now it's like, you know, just connect with her when you walk in 'cause the kids aren't there. They're out of the house now. And so it kind of helped me make that mindset shift. And you know what I would find too, Kerry, that when I would come in and use that energy at home and have a great evening with my wife, my day the next day was much better. And I started looking forward to coming home because I was getting recharged. That was my refuge, that was a safe place for me. And it was a lot easier to go fight the battles the next day because I put that energy into my spouse at night. - That's cool, that's really cool. That's a good word. Kim, without, you know, we got a few minutes left, but you know, just to make this real, you haven't had a perfect marriage. You've already alluded to a few things, but what probably for you personally, just encourage people 'cause I always think when we talk to experts, it's good to know, hey, we're all human, we all struggle. What's been one of the biggest struggles you've had to tackle personally in your marriage? - Good question. I think one would definitely be my selfishness and how I play that out. And so I just worked at that and God's changed me a lot in that area. I can still get in there knowing my vulnerabilities. When I get tired, when I'm stressed, I'm more vulnerable to get selfish and Nancy and now she's good at it. And she doesn't, I give her permission to call me out and she does it really good. She'll sit down beside me and she'll say, you gotta be stressed 'cause I don't know if you've noticed, but you're not acting very nice. And because she-- - That's a nice way to say it. - Yeah, instead of screaming at me, you jerk, which she probably has ever right to do sometimes, but then I think the whole thing is this team approach. If you can look at everything as a team, it makes it so much easier. Here's the problem, you're not acting very nice. How do we solve that together instead of blaming each other? So I think my selfishness has definitely been one of the main things that comes to mind. I mean, there's other things, you know, I-- - Isn't the Christian journey death to self? - Yeah. - Like that's a pretty big-- - Really? - I get that. A lot flows out of my selfishness. - Yeah. - You know, if you have unresolved pain in your life, pain is selfish. - Exactly. - If I stub my toe, I'm not thinking about my next appointment. I'm thinking about how bad my toe hurts. And if you've got unresolved pain in your life, emotional pain, you know, unforgiveness or whatever, that's just gonna ruin your message, your marriage as well, and it's gonna make you selfish. So, you know-- - Yeah, 'cause I was-- - Things will run through my mind and they all go back to selfishness if I'm not communicating well 'cause I'm selfish, 'cause I'm tired 'cause I don't wanna spend time talking tonight or conflict resolution. No, I just, I'm just gonna bed mad, I don't care. And, you know, it all comes back to selfishness. And I think that's probably the number one problem in most marriages that have, as we struggle, and it's probably the number one problem in humanity. And so, and it goes-- - It is the human condition. You're right, it's death to self, life to Christ. - It all goes back to putting him first, and then other things then can fall in the place. - Something about maybe like, if you lose your life, you'll find it. - Yeah, that sounds good. - Yeah, I've heard that somewhere. I've heard that somewhere. - So-- - Yeah, it's, you know, when you read those things, it's so great the things that God teaches us and tells us. And on the surface, they seem pretty easy, but most of them are hard to do because we gotta live life. And if I was in, I always thought, you know, if I was in a monastery somewhere, but maybe they have trouble too. But I think, you know, I wouldn't have any distractions. - Our small group is gonna read, Henry Nowins, "The Genesee Diet" together at the beginning of 2016. And I'm so excited. It's a book I read in the 90s. And it's just actually his death to self at a upstate New York monastery in the 1980s. And it's fascinating, but we'll link to that in the show notes, but I can't wait to read it again. - Yeah, that's good. - Okay, this is good. One last question because if a listener is looking for just a glimmer of hope for their marriage today, 'cause there are some, and listen, I had a season where we were hanging on by a filament. Had even a thread, is that smaller? I don't know, anyway, real small. Where would they find that glimmer of hope, you know? What could they do to hang on against all odds? - I think you've gotta believe the truth. And the truth is God wants your marriage to work. And he will go to the ends of the earth and be on to do everything he can to make you have a great marriage if you let him. And so I think there is always hope. I mean, I've seen couples that nobody would give a chance and I've seen, and it takes time, but over time, God do amazing things. And so I think number one, it's having hope. We do have a God that cares enough about me and about my marriage to help us make it work. And then to give him the time to do that because it's not probably gonna come right now. He's not gonna drop down and I can go very dust on you and everything's okay, it's gonna be a process. And so being patient with it. So have hope, get the help you need, and follow through together. - That's good, that's good. Hey, you know, there's one more thing, 'cause this comes up all the time at our church. And I don't know whether it does. I said last question, but-- - That's okay. - You know, it's open ended. What about the person who says, "I am so willing, "but not my partner?" - That's hard. - They just, I know, I don't know what to say to that. - And it's hard-- - What do you do with that? - Yeah, it's hard in the counseling room where I see one person really working and the other isn't and knowing they're not gonna go anywhere together. I think it's, as long as the person's not being abused, as long as there's not things that really were that person's in danger, I encourage him to stay in and to pray and let God work on that person. - You can't be, no matter, you can't be someone else's Holy Spirit. They are the ones that have to open their mind and do that. And so, yeah, it's tough. I hate those situations. - I do too, I really do. And that's tough, you know, for pastors out there, you get that and we get that in all kinds of forms. You know, I love Jesus, but my spouse just doesn't or I want the marriage to work, but my spouse just doesn't. And yeah, I mean, that's a whole other podcast if you get into abuse and what is abuse and what is abuse and, you know, 'cause you get into all of that. And that's a whole other thing. But yeah, that's tough and, you know, we'll be praying for people who are in that situation. - Absolutely. - You know, and don't bear it alone. Go and sit down with someone like Kim who is in your community that you can talk to, who can look very in a very granular way, specifically at your marriage and give godly character. - I think, and I think to finding someone that you truly, truly trust as a friend, that you can confide in during this. So you, you know, I've had a lady a couple of years ago and she never told anybody but me, things were, and I see the contrast with her as other people that have brought someone they trust in to walk through it with them. And God brings people in our lives to walk with us. And I think we need to have at least one person if we're struggling besides our council or besides our pastor that will be there for us day to day. - Yeah, and, you know, I totally agree with you that God will go to the ends of the earth because he wants your marriage to work. - Yeah, absolutely. - He did for my wife and I, we're just so grateful we hung in there. And I hope this has been helpful to people. So Kim, your book is called Seven Secrets to an Awesome Marriage. You also have a podcast called The Awesome Marriage Podcast. - Right, right. - And if people want to know more, where can they find out a lot? - A website has just about everything on it. I want an awesomemarriage.com. We just launched a new thing and they were calling Awesome Marriage University. And we're going to have some short courses for couples to help them grow their marriage through a great platform called Nuka Javi. And it's a very interactive thing. And so there's a lot of things on there. Most of the stuff we have on there is free. Some of the things cost. So yeah, explore that. There's over 400 videos on there that are for free that cover all kinds of things with marriage. So we've done it for the last few years. - Oh, that's super cool. Kim, thanks so much for being with us today. And I hope that a lot of the leaders listening, you know, maybe not tonight, but weeks, months, or even years from now, can look back on this moment and go, wow, it was worth the fight. Thanks for helping me fight for my marriage and for my spouse and for my family. I think you helped a lot of people today. - Hey, it was great being here. Thanks, Carrie. - Well, thanks so much, Kim. Some good advice there. And if you want some more information, you can find it all on the show notes. Just go to karaenuhoff.com, episode 80. Can you believe it? Man, 100 is in sight. That is like nuts. This thing isn't even two years old. So it's a lot of fun to be able to do this week after week. Best way to make sure you don't miss anything is to subscribe. And you can do that for free. How awesome is that? Just a lot of you are listening on iTunes, just hit subscribe on the podcast or on Stitcher or TuneIn Radio or whatever your platform is, just do that. Next week, we are back with Rob Sizek, who was in TV news, now leads in a large church in Seattle. And he's got something really interesting. I've written a lot about change. Actually, I'm rewriting my book, leading change without losing it right now. We're supposed to be re-releasing it this fall. Got my fingers crossed. It'll be expanded. It'll have more information in it. It'll have a new cover. It'll have some companion resources. And then Rob comes along and shares. One of the things I'm gonna include my own version of what he talks about next week, which is all about how to lead change. And like, how do you actually do it? So that's gonna be for free. Next week on the podcast with episode 81, David Kinemann coming up soon, Robby Zacharias, Whit George, Josh, Whitehead, and so many more. It's gonna be a lot of fun. So make sure that you're back here next Tuesday. I will be and we'll talk to you then. Really do hope our time together today has helped you lead like never before. (upbeat music) - You've been listening to the Kerri Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]