The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 073 – Jarrett Stevens on How to Say No in Leadership, City Ministry and Understanding Scripture
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 73 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff, and I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. Today, we're gonna hang out with Jarrett Stevens. And a lot of you probably know Jarrett, he's a well-known pastor, writer, and speaker. He and his wife, Jeannie, actually started a church a few years ago. Jeannie was on, oh, back on episode 44 of this podcast. We'll talk about that in a minute. He and Jeannie together started Soul City Church a few years ago, and it's done incredibly well. It's church that's growing in the heart of the city. We're gonna talk about that. But one of the reasons I'm so excited about today's conversation is, if you've been a subscriber or a listener for a while, you know I started this because I just was having all these amazing conversations with church leaders, often at conferences behind the scenes in the green room or at restaurants or over dinner, that sort of thing. And I would walk away from these conversations and go, oh man, I wish everybody could hear this. And so, ta-da, podcasting. What does that do? It means that everybody can hear it. And so normally, again, if you're a subscriber, you know this, I send my guests in advance like a dozen questions that I wanna cover with them. And often we go off-script. But first, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes of this conversation with Jarrett is just pure gold for me because unprompted, unscripted, unplanned, we just got into a problem that we're both facing. And the computer was running and we recorded it all. And now you get to hear it. But basically the problem of how do you scale a ministry in terms of personal care? And Jarrett and I sort of, he helped the light bulb go on where I kinda realized, like he pastors a large church about 15 or 1600 people, but he has a small auditorium. His auditorium are auditorium at Kinexis Church about the same size, just 350 seats. And so we have about 1,100 people at two locations through small venues. And it's the whole problem of everybody wanting to hang out with you because they think it's a small church. And you know, you start it as a small church. We start it as a small church. And you're like, ah, I can't, you know. Man, I gotta manage my time differently. So anyway, we talked through that for about 20 minutes and totally unscripted and unplanned and it was fun. So anyway, that's why I love doing this thing. And I love doing it because you guys are so awesome too. So thank you for all the ratings, the reviews on iTunes. Thank you for the encouragement, the feedback, the emails, you guys, you rock, you do that. And the goal is to just try to help you lead like never before. So hey, two things today. I would love for you to subscribe if you haven't done that. So just hit the subscribe button. And that way you never miss anything, including bonus episodes that come your way. And secondly, I would totally love for you to join me, Andy Stanley, Leon's Crump, Pete Wilson, Reggie Joyner, John A. Cuff, Jeff Henderson, Brad Lominick and many others. This April in Atlanta, for a brand new event, it's unlike anything you've ever been to before. It's kind of a conference, but kind of not. It's about conversations and not just content, but also connection. It's a limited space gathering and we're calling it rethink leadership. We just want to help you not just preach better on Sunday. We want to help you lead better on Monday. That's what this conference is all about. It's an intimate setting. There are table groups. You're going to interact with some phenomenal world-class leaders both on the stage and around the room. And it's a limited enrollment. So if you have not yet checked out rethink leadership, I would encourage you right now to go to rethinkleadership.com. That's who is sponsoring this episode. And I would love for you to be part of what's happening in Atlanta. You can still get some really great early bird rates. And I would love for you to be there. I'm going to be there. I'm one of the guys who's helping lead it this year. And if you've been to the Orange Conference before, this happens in tandem with the Orange Conference. So you should send the rest of your team to the Orange Conference. And then you as a senior leader, executive pastor, campus pastor, should come to rethink leadership. That's the senior leader gathering. The senior leader track is sort of morphed into its own conference. And that's what rethink leadership is. So I would love for you to be part of that. Go to rethinkleadership.com and come on out and hang out with us at the end of April in Atlanta. Well, anyway, let's dive into some gold with Jarrett Stevens today. And see if you enjoy the unscripted. I mean, none of this is scripted, but as you can probably tell. But anyway, the unplanned and unforeseen beginning of this interview, which really, really helped me, at least it was therapy. Here's my conversation with Jarrett Stevens. Well, Jarrett Stevens, welcome to the podcast. You are actually the very first husband/wife duo to ever grace the podcast. Is that cool or what? Hey, we are trend-setting, groundbreaking. You name it. We're glad to be pioneer husband/wife team. So for those of you who subscribe and are hardcore listeners, you'll remember Jeannie from episode 44. That was a great interview. And the two of you have had quite a journey in ministry. So just bring our listeners up to date. Sort of the thumbnail sketch of your journey, which started in Chicago, went to Atlanta, and is now back in Chicago. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to what you just said there, but that's about it. And I'll say before I get into that, I am very grateful that you'd have me on this. And once again in my life, I'm following my wife. So I want to just set the record straight right off the bat that it's all-- Well, I'm just thrilled you're here. Thanks so much, Jarrett. Thanks all downhill after Jeannie. So I'll take the number two spot. Yeah, so both my wife, Jeannie, and I simultaneously, before knowing each other, had unique callings to ministry. And so we met each other on-- she grew up in Wheaton, Illinois. And I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. We just happened to meet over a quick trip I was taking out here to Chicago while I was in college to transfer to the college that she was a student at. And I gave you all that as context to say when we met, we really not only fell in love, but we really had the shared calling to ministry, to full-time vocational ministry. And so as our relationship grew, then we began to explore, OK, what might this calling look like? And could it be a shared calling? Could it be something that we actually could share together? So yeah, we started at Will Creek Community Church out in the suburbs here, Chicago. Well, this is many, many moons ago in 1995. And both of us were working in the student ministry. So we were able to have a season there where we actually served side by side with each other. And then I went on to be a part of leading the thing called Access, which was a 20-something ministry. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, it was a really sweet and really fun days. And it's fun to kind of track all of us who were on that team, see where God's using us around Willow still some, and then literally around the city. There's other folks here who are pastors with us here in the city from that team. So it's fun to see what God's doing from that. And then that led us down to Atlanta. So left Willow as a teaching pastor there for a number of years and really had a wonderful season of ministry there. I'm pretty young, too. I mean, were you in your 20s when you started as a teaching pastor? Yeah, yeah. And that was all in those glorious mid-20s. Yeah. Wow. And then had made friends with some folks down at North Point Community Church in Atlanta and really just kind of through the, you know how it is when you have your conference friends that you see it, you know, every-- Yeah. --friends that you feel really close, but you really don't see each other but once a year. That's right. We see each other once a year. That's right, but we're butts, that's right. We had a couple of notes down at North Point in Atlanta. And it really opened up just the possibility of doing ministry together down there. And so we moved down there in '06 and pastored down there and led a ministry called 722, which was similar to Axis. Louis Giglio had started that. And then he was, at that time, moving on to do more of the record label stuff. So I took over that with my friend Joel and we really loved our season in Atlanta. I mean, similar to Willow, thought we'd be there for a long time. But two years in is when we got called to-- it just was one of those undeniable things, Carrie, to where God was leading us to start a church. Despite our resistance, you know what I'm saying? God think here. We love Atlanta, we love our home, we love our community. And yet it was just unshakable that it was to be a city church, to plant a city church, and to truly pastor it together, to co-paster this church together. So that was a big shift from the life that we had in Atlanta. And so we packed up our things after being down in North Point for four years and moved right downtown Chicago. And that was 2010. So we started Soul City Church the fall of 2010. So we just had our five-year anniversary a couple of months ago, and we could spend the rest of the day just talking about the only God stories and the things we could have never imagined or never expected, and how exciting and exhausting and all those things that it is. These last five years have been some of the sweetest, and most formative, and even trying it times for me in ministry. And I think Jeannie would probably share the same, so. - Yeah, she talked quite a bit about that in our conversation back in episode 44, and just the start like absolute highs and absolute lows, you know, that come, but mostly highs. - Yeah, and there is. There's not a lot of just normal when you plant it from scratch. It's not a lot of like, oh yeah, that's exactly as we expected, you know? - And the church has done well. - I mean, you're seeing what, pushing 1,500 now on the weekend over four services. - Yeah, so this Sunday, when we're recording this, we'll launch our fourth Sunday gathering, and so it's a capacity issue. We were hitting up against that 1,500 wall every weekend, and we have, there's nowhere else to go. We're out of overflow rooms, we're out of space, and so we're actually building, and there's a number of miracle stories there, but we were actually able to secure the space that we're meeting in currently, and then we were also able through some amazing, kingdom-minded investors. They were able to secure the land next to us that was about to be developed into more condos. - Wow. - Bought that a couple years ago and held it for us until we were ready as a church, and then we were able to take that over, and we're actually building, we break ground, as soon as the ground thaws here in Chicago, this-- - Yeah, so sometime in August-- - Yeah, we have about a four-week window, and now so we'll start construction on a new transformation ministry center, so that'll include a gathering space as well as some more community space and some more just functional ministry space for us. I mean, we're kind of bursting at the seams. So yeah, it's been a really fun, unexpected ride for us, especially going from churches like Willow and North Point, where you didn't, I mean, we stepped into a movement of God and tremendous momentum, and to see it all from the ground up, and to see God really take literally mustard seed-sized faith and resources and volunteers and all of that to see what's happening, and to see, I mean, Carrie, you know, it's like, all of the new challenges. I mean, you know, it's like, we're just in a, we just have all kinds of new and unique challenges to this season of growth, so we got us keeping us on our toes. - Well, you and I were talking about something before we actually hit record that was kind of interesting. And you know, one of the things that I'm passionate about, only because I had to live through it for 20 years, is structuring bigger to grow bigger. And one of the issues, you know, you really only worked at mega churches before you started your own church, and you don't start a mega church. I mean, you start a micro church, right? I mean-- - Yeah, you gotta start small. - Yeah. - Yeah. And so you were saying one of the challenges, which is interesting, because I've written about this, and we were talking about that, you know, that you have to pastor differently. But you've been through that journey, and I just think for everybody who's trying to, you know, think through how do I pass 200 in attendance? I mean, you've done that in real time, but it's proved some real challenges for you and Jeannie as you've interacted with your congregation as it's grown. And I'd love for you to share what you're learning on that, because that's something I just don't think we talk enough about, and so many of the leaders who are listening are right there right now, if they're at 100, 150, they wanna get to 300 or 400, or maybe they push through to 300, but like your relationship with your church and pastoral care changes, and I'll link to that blog post that you and I were talking about. It's called How Pastoral Care, I think, Stunts the Growth of Your Church. - Yeah, you're right, we were talking about this. You know, and I will, the leadership side and the structuring, the strategy, all of that stuff for growth, I'll leave that to folks smarter than myself. Jeannie actually speaks very, I mean, she really does lead to the vision and that sort of stuff of our church. To the pastoring, how does your relationship with your congregation change as your church grows? And I consider myself no expert at all this, because I feel like every week I'm doing it wrong somehow, or disappointing someone, or because it does change. As if I look at my relationship with Jeannie, we've been married this August, we'll be married 20 years. We're not the same, we're not the same, I don't relate to her the same way I did year one of our marriage, our relationship has grown and shifted and changed and thankfully gotten significantly better. So I think that's just the thing that, yeah, they don't tell you about church planning conferences that you're gonna really disappoint people 'cause you gave them your cell phone number when there was only 60 of you. And then, as it grows, they expect to have the same access to you and you just don't have the time. It's not personal, you literally don't have the time because as God continues to grow, the work that you're doing that he's put his hand on, you literally have to reprioritize everything regularly to make sure that you are giving the very best that only you can give. And that may mean you can't do as many coffees as you used to do when you didn't have as much to do because you were kind of just starting out or you were at that size where you could. And I don't, that's no one's fault. I think that's the hardest thing 'cause I can't say to people like, can't you understand the pressures of being a pastor at a church, they don't expect them. They want to see their pastor or they want to-- Right, hey, we were friends. We used to play squash every Tuesday and now you don't have time for me anymore. Exactly, and it's so hard to say, no, it's not that. I genuinely do care about you. I just am so limited now in the time that I have. And I think that has been, again, when I feel like I fail at more than I succeed. And we came from context where we stepped into two mega churches where as a staff member, I didn't expect to call Bill Hibles up and just hang out. Right, right. Very present and we had a great relationship. But as a staff member, I didn't expect to just like, hey, let's go grab some coffee, you know? Yeah, hey, Bill, let's spend a third of your week with me. Exactly, right, yeah. So, you know, Gene and I did not have a lot of context for this coming in, but it's obviously that God's grown us in this and I think there's, it's what you said. And I've read what you've written about this is that you have to kind of lovingly sort of coach and direct and create kind of healthy boundaries. And you have to be, it's, it has to be so loving and pastoral and subtle because to go from, I could just pop in and see you anytime to, now you've got to go through three people to get to me and I'll schedule you in six months from now. That doesn't, that's just, that can hurt people more than it can help anyone. And so it's a real subtle, nuanced, pastoral way of caring. I mean, it's what Moses had to transition to. You could walk through, Jesus himself was like, yep, there's gonna be way more towns that I don't visit than the ones that I do. There'll be way more people that I don't heal than the ones that I do. I've got these 12, I've got these three, I've got this one, like I'm not, you know, it's not going to just be open access. And that's a hard thing that no one really needs to take responsibility for except the leader themselves. - And everybody is not infinitely scalable. That's the challenge. - Yeah. - And you know, the dilemma, the tension is, particularly in startup, our church started a couple years before you, but I mean, when you're pouring into that startup group, like you are on the ground with them. - Absolutely. - 20, 30 hours a week. And so it would not be unreasonable for someone on your launch team to have had dozens of hours of access to you regularly. - Absolutely. - And now all of a sudden you got 1500 people, but there was another unique thing, and I've got to write about this. You really, you really tweak me into it. We share the same problem. Our church is about 1100, yours is about 1500. But when you go to Seoul City or you go to Kinexis, it doesn't feel that way because both of our rooms, our biggest rooms are 350 seats. - Yeah, we're 375. - And in our room, yep. - So when you come to our experience, it feels very intimate. - Yeah. - And actually I think-- - Which is awesome. - That's a awesome trend. I think, I don't think people want to sit in 20,000 seat, you know, Colosseums anymore in the future. I think particularly millennials, you know, smaller is better if you can do smaller and just replicate it numerous times. But it gives people this false idea that I'm part of a small church. And that's great, that's awesome. But it just creates this false access or this idea that, well, Jarrett and I are going to hang out now because there's not that many people here. - It's only a 20 feet away from me. - Right, right. We don't really need iMac, you know? - Right, exactly. Yeah, you're totally right. I mean, that's a thing that, again, we would not have even perceived to think about, and it's beautiful and it's wonderful. But yeah, the average person coming to our, you know, 10 a.m. gathering isn't going, oh yeah, there's three other of these gatherings. I bet that actually quadruples the expectations or the workload. You know what, they're just like, cool, I'm here now and this is a great small church. - Yeah. - And so it does, it takes that kind of loving behind the scenes, very nuanced, pastoral care, setting up healthy expectations. One of the hardest things for me to embrace is 'cause I'm a seven on the Enneagram, I love people, I love the moment, I love all of that stuff. But one of the things that's been the hardest lessons for me to embrace is that I am going to disappoint people. - Yeah. - Like I probably didn't do my job well if I didn't disappoint someone in the week. - Oh, that's good, that's good. - That's just a reality is that I'm having to listen to the call of God and be obedient to that first before I am to people's expectations. And sometimes, well, many times the two do not align. And so to just go, yeah, I'm sorry, I know. Yeah, I can't, yeah, it's not like it used to be or I wish it, you know, and I can't even say that, I wish it was 'cause I actually am excited about the thing God's. - Yeah, you don't wish it was. You hope you're gonna reach 3,000 people, right? - I love just people that God's moving. And so, you know, it's just that embracing like, yeah. And I love the, you're hitting at a second ago, the beauty of the smaller room multiple times or multiplied is that, I forget who said it, maybe you know, but you know, pastors love big, people love small, you know? - I wish I knew who said that, but yeah, only pastors love their churches. - Whoever's out there who said, "Dear Anonymous, thank you for that quote." - At some point, yeah, you know, but that's so true. Our people love that, they love that, this is a small church and we're all right there. And that's awesome. You know, we're, Gene and I are like, okay, well God, we're continuing to move forward in the vision that you've given us. And so, you know, that's not a small vision because you're not a small God. - So, so does that twist you up on the inside when you have to disappoint people? And how do you navigate that? - Yeah, I've just grown a cold, calloused heart, Kerry. (laughing) I just decided to just shut the world off and lock myself in my office. Of course it does. Because there's guys on my small group four years ago, they're like, dude, why do I, why does it take me like two weeks to get on your schedule? And I'm like, I know, I mean, it's not personal, man. It's a matter of priorities and it's, I'm trying to be, I could do, you know what, if I said yes to every request, you wouldn't have a sermon this weekend. There'd be no message this weekend. And so, for the other 1,485 people that are coming or whatever, like they wouldn't get a sermon. I'm, we had coffee, but that, you know, and so that's just a, of course it tears me up. And of course I feel like, oh man, I get it. And so, you know, that Andy Stanley, sort of leadership principle of, do for the one what you wish you could do for the many. And it was just this last week. I mean, there's a guy in our church that I don't know that well, you know, but I know his family and they hit a tough patch over the Christmas break. And it was just one of those promptings, Kerry, I don't know how to describe it, when his email came in, you know, hey, I'd love to grab coffee, I would love to talk. One of the shifts I've made that Jeannie's counselor actually brought into our world was that I don't typically go to coffee with folks and I know that can sound really mean. I don't, we meet in my office because that sets us. - It's a little more business. - It sets us a little more boundary. And like, and also, I don't have to then drive or walk in my case, 10 minutes to the coffee shop, 10 minutes back. And that's like, could sound all that. So, you know, you're not a servant. Well, no, I'm trying to actually serve the whole body. And so, so we do meetings in my office. And this email came in and I was like, you know, this is right. I can't meet with everyone who hits a tough spot, nor am I the right person to even do all that. But this is a guy who really needs his pastor. And you know what, for this guy, I will. And that's kind of the best that I can, you know, do in this phase. And so. - Yeah. - You know, it's just hard. I have a great assistant, Sarah, who actually is going on maternity leave later this year. So, I'm thrilled and conflicted at the same time. - Yeah, thank you so much. - Absolutely. It really, really helps me to have an assistant who's so good at saying no. I often joke with her. Your job is to say no, you know, and she does it so well, people think she said yes. - That's the key. Yep, yep, that they feel like loved in the process and that they're not just giving a hard no or just kind of brushed aside. Again, this is the real nuanced stuff of leadership. And there's a lot of other, you know, important principles and all that kind of stuff. But this is the stuff they just don't talk about a lot or they don't write. - No. You know, one little trick. Let's share tricks for a minute. None of this is on the questions. - No, I love it. - But this is fun. - Any of the questions we were supposed to talk about, that's all. - Yeah, but we will get to your book and we will get to urban ministry and all that stuff, city ministry. But no, one of the tricks I learned a long time ago was to start with I would love to. You know, as long as that's authentic because reality is I would love to meet with everybody. I would love to jump on Skype with everybody who wants, you know, to pick my brain or whatever. But again, if I'm gonna preach well at Kinexis Church, if I'm gonna do this podcast, if I'm gonna write, you know, hopefully quality articles and write books, I could spend the rest of my life just meeting with people randomly and it wouldn't happen. And so I've learned to say, I would love to. But, and then I'm a chicken, so I always send everyone to Sarah and then she sorts that out. But if you have an assistant, that's helpful. Or you can just say, you know what, this is a really busy season, would you email me? And then if they email you, then you're kind of in a trap because then if they email you and you say no there, but what are your tricks? See, I'm out of ideas. - That's it, you got those two. - That's it, I got those two now I'm dead. - Awesome. - So your turn. - Well of ideas there. - Of bad ideas. - Well, again, yeah, failing at this more than succeeding is sometimes how it feels. But one of the things that I think is healthy for multiple reasons is to, is to maybe break is the right word or to sort of create a culture of honoring the whole staff or the whole team. - Yes. - And so that there's not this, I'm the person in our case, you know, we're the people and we're the, it's our vision. So to highlight, tell stories, to have staff members, you know, who can handle the stage and handle them, like host the services, teach, if they have the gift of teaching. To talk about, hey, you know, Nicole is just, oh, she's doing such an amazing job in our care in our small groups. And, you know, to kind of create a culture that this is not just one person up front or in our case two, we're a whole team. Now that works ideal. - That's really good. - Yeah, but it's. - And then do you have a good group structure? Like that's what you reminded me. I will often say, hey, are you in a group? - Totally. - And that's, and so often it's like, yeah, but I want to talk to you, you know, for some reason, it's like, I've done all the things. And so what I can do is, and this is completely true and authentic and say, hey, I hear it's like similar. He said, I would love to, you know, I'm not even the best person to talk to about that. We actually have some of our staff who that's, like that's what they do. And they'll be able to take you way further faster. Let me introduce you to Kurt. And Jean and I were even just saying this last week, I mean, again, none of this is all figured out and perfect. Like it's all learning in real time of needing to have, make sure that our staff is present after our gathering. So one of the things that I make sure I do every Sunday is I'm out front in the lobby talking to people afterwards. I mean, it's an old-school church thing, but I'm at the door saying goodbye to folks and saying, hey, just so that they can see, you know, and I can make a connection. But when people come up at that point and go, hey, I'd love to get together and talk with you. If the staff's not around or I can't defer them, I'm like, well, there's this guy Kurt. And you can email him at Kurt at Soul City Church. If Kurt's there, I can literally just go, hey, you got to walk right over there and talk to Kurt. Let me introduce you to Kurt. He actually can really make that connection for you. So that just starts to kind of create that culture of we're a team where it's not just me. And they're the person's actually there for me to kind of lead you to. So then it doesn't also get lost and like, okay, well, I'll email you and you can connect me to Kurt 'cause now I'm just prolonging disappointment. So I'll defer to the students as soon as possible. - And let me ask you this. Okay, this again, this is like, okay, 'cause we're solving all of our problems you're trying to anyway. My assistant Sarah said to me recently, she said, Kerry, you just have to learn how to say no politely. Are you there yet? Have you figured that one out? - Yeah, we did. And you know, we did, because I think of all these awesome learnings of starting at churches like Willow and at North Point, we had to watch pastors and even stepped into positions of ministry where we were already a place where we couldn't do it all or there, you know, and so there was already a pretty strong kind of no muscle is what we call it. - Sure. - There's a healthy one in that, I don't love doing that, but I also, if I don't have the kind of the bigger picture vision in mind, you know, then I'm gonna feel guilty. I'm gonna feel bad, but if I can remember like, no, God's actually called me to this whole thing. And sometimes that is this particular person, but it can't always just be that. It's the bigger picture. Then the note comes with a little bit more authenticity, integrity, even authority, because it's like, yeah, like you said, I would love to. But you know, I'm in a season right now. We'll talk about it a little bit with this book coming out. I've had to say to folks, I would love to. You know what? I'm just gonna be kind of in this thing for the month of January. So we're not gonna, you could get time with me and I'm not gonna be present with you 'cause my head's gonna be somewhere else. So, you know, just being honest with that, letting people know, kind of setting those clear expectations. - Yeah, I think Greg McEwen says he even sets up his email to say, hey, I'm in monk mode for the month. Or maybe that was, you know, John Acuff. I've gotten John's auto responder before. And, you know, it's like, hey, I'm only checking email every two weeks. Now you have to be really careful with what you do. And I think what makes it really complicated, you know, when you leave that on all the time, if I could. - I know. Well, I almost have to at this point. I don't know what to do. Anyway, welcome to Unsolvable. - Yeah, how about that? You will really move in the ball forward. - Yeah, we are really moving the ball forward. But I think a lot of people can empathize. But here's a reality. What probably makes it harder for you than it was at Willow, or than it was at North Point, is that these are the people that you birthed on your venture from scratch. And they are the people who've been in the trenches with you. And I think every leader can identify with that. And again, I love what you say about keeping the mission forward and center. Because you have to think, you know, I've even heard Andy say, you know, the reason I can't have lunch with you is Andy Stanley. That is, the reason I can't have lunch with you is because if I did, you wouldn't like attending our church. And that sort of, you know, it takes a couple of logical jumps, but he's absolutely right. And if you want to create the kind of church that you love to attend, then I'm just not able to have lunch with everybody. - Yeah, and again, no one wants to hear that. Everyone wants, you know, but that's part of the job of carrying the mantle of leadership is that you have to keep that front and center. - Yeah. - Okay, this is cool. Thank you so much, Jared. - Yeah, it's fun. - That's good. But you're working in downtown Chicago. And prior to that, your ministry experience was largely urban. So be, or suburban, I should say. So being in a city, what are some of the challenges and the differences and the changes that you've encountered in a city church? - Yeah, I mean, we are. We're right downtown in Chicago's West Loop. And so we're in a really dynamic, wonderful neighborhood. It's the fastest growing neighborhood in Chicago right now. And I was telling you beforehand, that God just providentially led us to a series of only God stories, relationships, opportunities to be able to actually secure physical space. So we were able to start with a building. And I would not call it a pretty building. We call it the Millennium Falcon. 'Cause it's awesome, but it's got a lot of issues. You've got to hit the walls a lot to get things working. But we were able to start with the building in this neighborhood as it was really kind of blowing up. - And did you know it was gonna blow up the way it did or that was just probably-- - Yeah, we kind of, folks in the city, and this happens. I mean, we could walk through the last 30, 40, 50 years and kind of point, this was the neighborhood in that decade. This was the neighborhood in that decade. And yeah, you could start to see it because it used to just be one of the worst neighborhoods in Chicago, it was the meat packing district. It used to be the red light district of Chicago. It's right by where the United Center is, where the bulls and the play. But when we lived in the suburbs and we'd come in for a game, I mean, you went straight to the parking lot and straight into the United Center, you did not walk around or anything 'cause it was an interesting dynamic neighborhood. But all that started to flip and all the meat packing places became condos and then there was cool and it was blah, blah, blah. So I say all that to say, we secured space, but it's not a huge space. And that was one of the biggest shifts for us. And I say huge, that could mean anything to anyone. But we started our church with 22,000 square feet of actual space, so 11,000 on top of 11,000. And you know, that was like, that was the gym at Willow. I mean, you know, like there's just no, there's just like, there's more office. - That was the staff gym as well. (laughing) - That's not the public gym, that was the staff gym. And so, you know, that's one of the biggest shifts for us was space is at a premium in the city and depending on which neighborhood you're in. I mean, there's, you know, Chicago is kind of big and wide enough that you could be on the outskirts of the city and it's more like the suburbs than it is the city, but where we're at in the actual city context, space is at a premium. I mean, both there's not a lot of it and therefore, because of that, it costs a lot. And so you kind of have to rethink some of that stuff. Do you have to kind of throw out a lot of assumptions or maybe even expectations that you had like, oh yeah, there'll always be a place for small groups. Oh yeah, there's even office scene. You know, like we've been blessed to have a space or we can office. Most of my friends who started churches in the city, like you got to have another space to office out of, you know, or figure that out, which coffee shop this week or whatever. So, you know, that there's a lot of that stuff that is different, but one of the upsides to that is the reason that space is at a premium is because of the density and that's something I could have never understood until we moved into the city, that there's just so many people on top of so many people. And what that means is with, you know, within just a one mile radius of our church, there's 130,000 people in just a little circle and that's just condos, that's just packed in and that's one little tiny circle, you know. And so there's just such tremendous kingdom and ministry opportunity literally on top of your building. I mean, literally there next to you. And that is a wonderful shift that I love. That's, you know, while we have people driving and we have people driving from the suburbs, we have people driving from all over the city, but we have a ton of people just walk right over and. - And that's so rare for so many people. - Yeah, it's so cool. Like, and so then what that means now is our ministry presence is not in a parking lot off of, you know, whatever road. We're right in the neighborhood. I mean, we're right across from the 7-Eleven. We're right next to the Boy Scouts building for our neighborhood. We're right next to the public school, where our kids go to school. We're literally on the same street one block away. We're right next to the new condos that are going at work. It's just we're kind of integrated right into the neighborhood. And so that's something I love, Carrie. Like I love that I can't literally walk to work or walk to our favorite restaurant or walk without seeing folks from our church. I mean, last night I'm at the kids' soccer, right? We walk to the place that the play indoor soccer at. And I'm talking with a couple from our church whose kids are also there. And they introduced me to their friend that they've been inviting to church for over a year and a half. And it's so funny because she lives right around the corner and yet has still never made it to our church. But if she wanted to, it would be a three-minute walk for her. I mean, so then you live right there too, right? Like you're a block away from all that. We're just a block away from the church, which is another only God opportunity to be able to live in the neighborhood that we passed her in. That's special. So, you know, that stuff is really sweet. That neighborhood, that local, that like we were talking about earlier, being able to be very micro and very focused and very small, you know, in a sense, is really a gift. I'm really thankful for that. - And did you start with a nucleus you knew or that was like you built all these relationships one by one over the last six years, right? - Yeah, it really was. We didn't have a, there wasn't like a launch team that was sent out from any air. And so we had some people that we had just met at conferences that we had across, that we had a team from Atlanta and, you know, being the dynamic leaders that we are, we had a team of about 15 people from Atlanta that were gonna start the church with us. One of them made it. So. (laughing) - It was pretty good, pretty good option there. You know, but they actually, I mean, that team from Atlanta was so tremendously helpful 'cause they really helped us shape and pray this church into reality. And then we just, you know, then they all stayed there and we came here and did it. - Wow. - So yeah, the unique thing for us that was coming back to at least an area where we had done ministry for 11 years. So there were, there was already, you know, there was a group of people at least tangentially or, you know, kids that were students when we were in student ministry 15, 18 years ago that were now married with kids and they remember us and they trust us or for what, you know, they, and so they're living in the city. So they'll go to Jarrett and Jeannie's church or they'll go, you know, 'cause I remember them from Willow Creek or so. So, but it was, I miss, I genuinely miss those days. It was, yeah, 30 of us, 40 of us kind of started the church and we all were meeting each other, you know, in like real time. And then because of the space that God allows to have, we actually had to renovate it. So we actually got to build our church while God built our church. So even being there and being sweaty and hammering and tearing walls down. I mean, there was some real formative stuff that we could have never in a million years taken credit for. Like God was doing something way beyond our best plan of bringing, yeah, folks together. So yeah, it was a truly, truly from scratch start. No, no outside. - Yeah, so no, no, like big like 300 core nucleus or anything like that. - You know, and North Point was tremendously kind and generous North Point Church was very kind and generous. But no, there was no church that sent us. There was no organization that we started with. All those things are great and fine. No denomination. Those things are wonderful. That's just, it wasn't our story. - Yeah. - So yeah, it was a truly, you know, from scratch. - When you look at the growth over the last five and a half years, is a lot of that word of mouth or personal invitation, have you done any marketing into the city or? - No, it's personal invitation. - Wow. - And again, that density thing. So it's like, you're gonna, you know, there's just enough people they're gonna kind of hear about it and, or walk by it, you know, on their way to work or whatever it is that can trickle in. But it really, no, we've actually never done anything external marketing. I think we did one mailer when we started. And that's not cause we're like some awesome strategy. We didn't have the money, Carrie. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with that. We had a big marketing budget when we started Kinexis and then we cut it. - Yeah. - And we're out of money right away. So we've done all of our growth in the last six years has been word of mouth. - Yeah, word of mouth, yeah. And I think, and, and. - Personal invitation. - You know, hopefully a reputation of a healthy, vibrant, Jesus-centered, you know, like our reputation would proceed as we do a lot of work in the community. And so we have a good reputation with our aldermen. We have a good reputation, you know, with the mayor. We have a good reputation. So even some of that is subtle and nuances that may seem. It actually does go a long way so that when someone speaks of our church, our hope is, you know, that they speak well of it, that it's kind of a gift to the city. So even that along with the personal invitation stuff, you know, this woman last night that these folks at soccer told us about, I mean, I don't think she's a church-coin person. I can kind of just base in our conversation. But she already knew all about our church. Oh, I know about your church. In fact, her neighbor was our daughter's preschool and a smogger bleeder, Mr. Brett. And so she's like, well, I know this guy. I doubt, you know, his name's Brett. I'm like, oh, I know Mr. Brett. Mr. Brett was Gigi's smogger bleeder in preschool. So like her neighbor goes, her friends go. And so it's just this really kind of cool thing, you know, that God works out where he works organically and relationally like that. So. - Well, you know, when you have that many people show up and I'm sure not all of them have a church background, right? You're reaching a lot of people who show up. - You have a lot of church folks, yeah. - Yeah. So I want to talk about your new book because you talk about four words and from what I can gather, it releases it well by the time this airs, it will have released. It really helps people understand the scripture. I know, I talk to a lot of church leaders. And I mean, I always say to our staff, hey, the good news is 60% of the people who walk through our door for the first time don't have a church background. The bad news is 60% of the people who walk through our door don't have a church background. And they don't even have a biblical worldview. You know, they start reading the Bible in Genesis and they give up by chapter 13 and, you know, so you're trying to wade into that space as a church planter, biblical literacy. But I think your book tries to tackle that as well. Talk to us about that. - Yeah, so I'll give you kind of the bigger context that we can talk more about the four small words. Yeah, you're exactly right. We start, when we started this church, you know, I would say, you know, while teaching, hey, grab your Bible and open to, you know, and no movement. I mean, not like a tumbleweed rolled right across the stage. I mean-- - I'm familiar with that. - Yeah, and so-- - And I, you know, it's not, I'm like, okay, what are you doing here, God? And then for those who did have a Bible, you know, you could feel, you know, like the hesitancy, the, you know, of like, I don't know where the first John is. I don't, is that one of the new ones or the old ones? And so we made a decision pretty early on and spent some, you know, significant resources in this investment to have a Bible in every seat. Again, not a new idea. - Right. - But we were able to put a Bible in every seat so that though, it's the exact same Bible. And it's so that we can say, hey, if you don't have a Bible with you, no worries, grab the gray Bible in your seat back and on every slide, every time we put a verse up, it has the page number. And you can turn to page 73, again, none of this stuff is new. But what I will say is it's then sort of engaged people, maybe in a way they've never engaged the Bible ever before. And then one of the things that we would started to realize was like, well, we didn't buy all these Bibles to sit in seat backs all week. We bought them so people would have them. And so we just started mittin' joking right after we got them. Like, hey, if you don't own a Bible, if you're serious about discovering who this guy is and you don't own a Bible, we want you to steal a Bible from church today. Like, please, like the best thing you'll do today is to tell your friends you stole a Bible from church today. And that care, I'm so glad God kind of led us that way because we've had to replace and restock and replace and restock. And to the point where it's a little part of our culture where someone'll see me afterwards and show their Bible, like, I stole a Bible, you know? (laughing) Don't steal anything else. - That's cool. - Don't steal anything else. It stops at Bible. - Yeah, Bible's really real alive. And so as that was happening in, I was going, okay, wait a second. So what we have here actually is maybe different than the statistics. It's a different story than maybe you'd see, you know, when you kind of look at the stuff coming out of Barna and the growing, you know, use the word biblical literacy. And I think there is a, you know, a biblical illiteracy, but I don't think that's the whole story. At least what we found in Chicago. So who knows, you know, people will know their context way better than I would. They're folks who are interested in the Bible, actually interested. I'm interested, at the very least, I'm curious, I'm interested, but they're intimidated by the Bible. I don't know, I don't, I mean, just look at it. Like, if you're not an insider and you didn't grow up with the stuff and didn't, how would you even possibly know where to turn or what to it? And then you get-- - Well, you would start at the beginning. - You'd start beginning. - You'd just wait. - And then if you get to the place where they told you to go to, then you got to figure out what the heck it says or what it means or what this context is. So it's hard enough to even get it into it. And then you get into it and it's hard to understand. And so I, what we found was, and we saw it by people stealing Bibles. It's like, wait a second, people are interested in the Bible. They're just maybe intimidated by it or they just have no zero exposure to it or they're Christians who've been around it so long, they've forgotten how good it is and how they've lost their love for it because they've just been around it so long. They've just gotten familiar with it, you know? And so I was like, oh man, you know, God, what do we want to, like, is there something you're kind of stirring in me for that? So that's really what began the idea for this book, Four Small Words, is how can we help remove some of the intimidation of the Bible and help people maybe have a different framework for it? So it's not so intimidating. So that's what it is. It's looking at the Bible through a lens of four movements. - So walk us through those four movements or those four words. - And tell us the title of the book just so everybody gets it. - It's called Four Small Words, Four Small Words, and it's longer than that. - Put the links in the show. - The book is longer than Four Words, I actually-- - Four Small Words, yeah, don't pay whatever it is for Four Words. - Yeah, yeah, I got a lot more than Four Words, but the Four Words are of between with and in, and I'll explain those quickly. - All those connector words, right? - Right, so of is the story of creation. That's Genesis one and two. That's the shortest section in the four main movements that I kind of look at the Bible. That's the four main movements. Of is the very first one, Genesis one and two, and that is we are created in the image of God. And that's actually an incredibly important place to start or at least to have in your framework of understanding the story of God as revealed to the Bible. You actually have a source, you have an identity. It's rooted in God. So let's look at the relationship of what the writer of Genesis, what they want us to understand is that this was a Trinitarian relationship that there is Father, Son, and Spirit. It says, "Let us create people in our image." And so, okay, well, wait, what does that mean? Could it be that if I'm created from this relationship of the Trinity, that I actually might be created for relationship? 'Cause if that's who I'm of, if that's who I'm from, what does that mean? Let's look at the relationship that God had with Adam and Eve before sin and go, okay, is that sort of the essence? That's where I come from. That's what I'm created for with God. And so we started Genesis one and two, and then Genesis three is between. That's where that word starts. The next movement, the second movement, goes from Genesis three all the way to Matthew chapter one. And the reason that word is between us to importance because it's sin between us and God. And what you see is when sin comes between us and God, it completely changes the story. So now what you see the second sin enters in is there's, the first things that come between are shame, blame, hiding. So where there was intimacy with God, where he walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the afternoon, where there was this, there was no need to pray 'cause God was just always there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just a conversation. Well now there's something that has to come between us and God. And it works both ways actually. Sin comes between us and God. And so we have all of these things that get in the way in between the relationship we have with God. But then God keeps making a way throughout the whole Old Testament. The Old Testament is a story of God stepping between the gap that sin created. So that's why you have covenants. God says, I'll come between what you broke and I'll make a covenant. I'm gonna make a promise to you. And so I'll step between with this covenant. Shortly after that, you have commandments. God says, okay, look, we don't have the access, the relationship that we had in the garden, but I'm going to make a way of, I'm gonna come between. And so that's why you have covenants, commandments. That's why you have temples, priests. This is what priests, kings, prophets, they're all these go-betweens. They're all these things that step between us and God into the distance that sin caused. That's the whole- - That's customizable. - And so if you get that, it's like, oh, so when I read the book of Psalms, any one of the Psalms, I'm reading what it feels like to live in the space between me and God. The book of Psalms is like the soul of the Old Testament. - Yeah. - This is what it feels like. 'Cause I can feel close to God and be closer. And yet I want God to destroy all my enemies or yet I feel I'm aware of my sin that's come between us and, you know, that kind of real-time reality of that. So that gives some context. It's like, oh, that's what the Old Testament is. It's these things that have come between us and God and all the ways that God steps between us and our sin. And then the third word, not surprisingly, is the third movement is the Gospels. And that word is with God, with us. Okay, so what does that mean? Well, what is the Gospels really are telling us is this is what life with God looks like. Literally, physically, tangibly, Jesus is there. But what is he doing? Who is he with? Who is Jesus choose to surround himself with? You know, and we've all kind of given sermons on that. But let's like really pay attention to that. Okay, so then who have I surrounded myself with? Do they, does that line up at all with the people that Jesus started himself with? And so if I'm gonna understand what life with God is like, I look to the Gospels, that's the third movement. God with us, he wants us to see what it looks like to have relationship with him. And then the last word starts in Acts chapter two. That's the last movement. The fourth word in the fourth movement is the word in. God in us. And the whole New Testament is a study in what life is like when God is in you. All the stories of the first church, all the interactions between Paul and John and James and Peter, these letters that they're writing, is to remind them, no, no, no, God's in you. You don't have to earn it anymore. You don't have to try and there's nothing between you anymore. That God is at, and Jesus made it really clear he wasn't going to stay with us because the greater thing, the next movement was God in us. If he stayed with us, then there's only one Jesus. He's limited by time and space as he was for the part of him that was fully human. Jesus says, no, I must go. One who's coming is greater than I, he will be in you. And so that's what the fourth word is, is in. So I'm trying, you know, I try to go, okay, that's how, at least when I look at the Bible, I see four main movements. And I grew up going to church, Kerry. I don't know if you did her. - Yeah, I did too. - And so I remember the, you know, the walk through the Bible. Do you remember walk through the Bible idea, you know, where you could break it all down? I forget how many words it was because I always got lost after creation, fall, flood, and then I would forget it. So yeah, I loved it because I remember growing up but it didn't stay or stick with me. So I sat down to write this book. I was like, what if we could try and make it as simple as possible? - So it's like an overlay or a meta narrative. It's the meta narrative of scripture. That's fascinating. And so it's intended to put into the hands not just to preachers, but basically of congregations, right? - Absolutely. So as a communicator, you know, this weekend, I'm teaching and I'm going, okay, so I'm gonna teach this passage from Matthew 22. What is this, what is Jesus trying to, like what's the width kind of angle of this? What is, you know, how can I best understand? Or I teach from the Old Testament, I could say like, look, here's the story. We're coming into the story of Abraham, but let me give you a bigger context. God's made a covenant, a promise with Abraham. He stepped between our sin and his faithfulness and he said, I'm gonna make this covenant promise to you. And so it just gives it a context that I think maybe can, so where, you know, you can put your finger at any point in any one of those movements, Genesis one through two or three through, you know, Matthew one, Matthew one through Acts two. You can put your finger at any one and go, I understand kind of the bigger story that's going on here. I understand this movement at the very least. And that might, my hope is that it would help not only give people sort of greater context, but maybe remove or diminish that intimidation, help people feel like, oh, I can get this. And I think that changes our engagement with the Bible. It's like, no, actually this is for me. I can get this is very empowering and very powerful things. - It really is, you know, for me, I grew up reading the Bible. I went to church all of my life. And it was when I went into seminary that for the very first time, I got to a place in my very first Old Testament course where I'm like, oh, this is how it all fits together. And finally, you know, somebody once said, "You remember, you know, dating me." Remember the slide carousels on those projectors if you've ever seen them. - Many vacation slides in Arthur and Steve. - Yeah, vacation slides. So it's like one of those filled with slides. And I knew who Moses was and I knew who Abraham was. And, you know, I'd heard of Elijah and Ezekiel and so on. But it's like somebody dumped that carousel all over the floor and the slides were scrambled. Did Moses come before Abraham? How does he relate to David, so on? And then they all magically got back into order. And that to me was so liberating because it told the story of God's deliverance, right? Creation fall, you know, the exodus and then the exile and the return. But this is my challenge to help me out here. You know, as a communicator, somebody who's up there more weekends than not. Sometimes I think when we teach in series and I'm a big fan of series, it really helps people. But it's like, how do we actually get people access to the broader narrative of scripture? Any thoughts of that? Because it's like we're giving them snapshots, you know? But how are they actually going to be able to read the Bible for themselves? And I think that is a growing problem because fewer and fewer people in our churches have any muscle memory of the scripture or of the Christian faith. You know, they learned what they learned online. You know, as David Kinemann has said in the research of Barna, they just have no muscle memory at all of Christianity. - Yeah, and you can't, you know, I think there's a reaction to that of kind of shaming people for that. Or like, oh, people just don't know the Bible these days. Yeah, you're right. They don't. So we're going to be mad at them for now. No, we're never going to help them. - Yeah, exactly. - And so, you know, for, well, I mean this, what you just said is exactly why I wrote the book. It's like, how can I help people get the bigger story so that when you get, when you kind of get in and go, oh, I get it. Well, then I can dive much, much deeper in, you know, but if I'm always standing on the outside, I have no idea how deep that pond is. I have no idea how deep that well is but because I'm on the outside. But once I get in the water, I'm like, oh, I can, oh, okay, I'm comfortable. I can do this. - I can swim here. - Yeah, totally. And so, so one of the couple of things, you know, you talked about tricks and tips earlier. One of the things when I preach is anytime we open up to a story, I give quick context. I do it for two reasons. One, 'cause I say, hey, open up to, you know, Matthew 22, it's on page 503, whatever in your Bible. Hey, while you're turning there, let me tell you where we're at in the story. So like this last week, I was teaching through, I'm like, all right, so kind of here's where we're at. We're, you know, 1400 years after I was talking about this, we're from Isaiah 43 last weekend. So we're, you know, we're 1400 years after God makes that very first promise to Abraham about a people. We're still 700 years from Jesus coming. Now the average person's not like gonna go, oh, I see where we're at, chronologically in the Bible. I'm just trying to give a little like, oh, I can put my finger there on the map. At least I can go, okay, I kind of get where we're at. Or here's where we're at in the story that people have got, you know, they've done this, they've forgotten this. And so I try and give in carry like three or four sentences without, 'cause I think what some pastors love to do is they wanna kind of make everyone else pay for their education. And so they've got to go on at length about it. Like the average person's like, dude, you already lost and you haven't even started your sermon yet. So, so given a little context, but then one of the things that we're actually doing as a church is we're teaching through this four small words book because we're teaching through the whole narrative of the Bible. So this is the longest teaching series we've ever done. We're kicking off in a couple of weeks in February and it'll be eight weeks long and it's kind of, it's to help give the whole big story. And so that, you know, that's kind of a tool to come back to like, hey, if you feel intimidated or you're brand new to the Bible, like just, you can start by listening even before you even, you know, you can listen to this series and help kind of give context. We're doing all of our small groups with it as well. So folks can really have kind of an immersive thing. And so, you know, I said, you know, there's churches where that's all they do is they just kind of keep teaching through, I am with you, I love a good series. I love the, one of the ways that we've worked our, created our teaching rhythm is that, and this is very rudimentary and certainly not the first person to do this. But I like the mix of kind of a horizontal and a vertical back and forth, horizontal vertical. I like talking about something that people are feeling and it's kind of a felt need, you know, like sort of like, yeah, I don't marriage or finances or that. And then the next series will be about, hey, let's do a deep dive into the book of James. Let's take this, you know, spiritual like idea or this principle is concept. Then the next series will be more of a horizontal one. And so that kind of just, and maybe no one else care, probably no one else cares or no one else notices, but for me at least as a communicator, it keeps things kind of interesting and fresh. And I like to believe for folks who are part of our church, it's kind of like why you don't do upper body, you know, if you, if you were working out every day and all you did was upper body, you're going to have a lot of issues in multiple areas, upper body and lower body. So that's why you mix it up. You give a rest, you give focus, you give a rest, you give focus. And so, you know, that, this will be the longest we've done a like walk through the whole story of the Bible, but I'm excited for like. - And then you'll use that as like a hallmark series that people can go back to even two or three years from now. It's like, oh, you just dive into the Bible here. - Yeah, exactly. - Right. That's not a bad idea. I was going to ask you before we wind down like, what are one or two, 'cause I think biblical literacy or, you know, access or understanding of scripture is something we all struggle with at different levels. If there's one or two things you could suggest for leaders and preachers who are saying, you know, okay, how do I address that? - Well, yeah, and let me say a couple words to, even just the words that you just used there, 'cause they're the words that I would use to describe kind of where we're at. So what I'm interested in and what I'm passionate about is not raising biblical literacy. - Okay. - I don't necessarily, I don't believe God's desire for us or the Bible is to know more. I believe it's to understand and integrate more. And so, you know, I know growing up in church, I grew up around people who knew a ton about the Bible and yet they were some of the meanest, most selfish, you know, arrogant people I'd ever met. And so it's like, wait, you can know a lot, but not understand. You could know a lot, but not integrate. - Couldn't agree more. - So I think that as a pastor, and this why I wrote this book is I want people to understand, I want a context. I don't want just more facts and knowledge and that kind of stuff. And to be really honest, we live in a day, right? I mean, like we have too much information. This is the great dilemma of the internet age is that we need meaning. That's what we're searching for, meaning. So I've got all the information, but give me meaning, give me understanding. How do I, what does that mean to me? And so that's kind of the stuff that I'm really interested in as a pastor and a teacher. - Love that. - And, you know, I think that's, I just think that's what I went back to earlier. That's where our church is at. So that's just where I started from. I think people are interested more than we think. I think they're intimidated more than we know. And I think when we get to heaven, I would love to say as a pastor and a writer, God, I did the best I could to help people understand, engage, integrate your word. And so, yeah. So that's, I forget your original question. - No, it was great. I mean, that's a framework and sometimes you need to start with that because we think it's Bible Bootcamp 101. I'm gonna teach you everything to know with, you know, from Genesis to Revelation. But I think I agree with you. There's a whole generation of people who knew a lot about the Bible who walked away from Jesus. - Exactly. - And we have to be so careful of Jesus and still do. And, you know, we'll like use their knowledge as a way of kind of shaming people or, you know, and I just go, I don't, that doesn't seem to me to be the heart of God or the heart of the Bible. And so, you know, that's kind of the stuff as a, as a communicator that I'm drawn to. And I think, yeah, I want to help people. I mean, at a very core level, it doesn't sound smart or spiritual. I just want to help people. - And that's good. - In my teaching and in my, you know, and there's always a double edged sword there. And we kind of, when I'm teaching or training communicators, it's like, you know, just 'cause it's true doesn't mean it's helpful, right? So that's kind of a thing after it. Like, just 'cause, yeah, you just told me all those true things. You gave me 15 minutes of context. Was it helpful? Did that help? And on the other side, just 'cause it's helpful doesn't mean it's true. And so I could say, you know, oh, you know, that's, you know, I can give you all kinds of great advice. But is it actually rooted in God's word? Is it rooted in biblical principles? And so, you know, I have to keep those things in check just 'cause it's true doesn't mean it's helpful. Just 'cause it's helpful doesn't mean it's true. But I genuinely want to help people. And so that's why I wrote the book. And that's, you know, that's what we're trying to do at Soul City is to help everyday ordinary folks. And that really is who this book is for. And that's where our church is. It's for everyday folks like, you know, you and me who are just like, I want to know God. I want to grow in my relationship with God. And so that's what that's all about. - So let's go full circle. People are going to want to know more. And they're also going to want to go out for coffee and lunch with you. - Yeah. - And with me. - That's right, that's right. I'm going to send them to you. So Sarah, I'm sending them to yours. - I just send them to Sarah. Send them to Sarah. She'll deal with me. - I'm going to try to leave quick, 'cause I'm going to just start telling people to email Sarah from me. (laughing) - Where can we find you online, Jared? - Well, so a couple places for just me and my writing and that's for stuff, jaredstevens.com. So Jay. - Two R's, two T's. - F two R's, two T's, jaredstevens.com. There's, you know, stuff, I put my sermons up there. I put regular posts and pieces that I write there and also some Star Wars related things. 'Cause I'm a huge star, so if you're talking to my side, don't be surprised if you see some Star Wars related stuff. And in the book, you can go to forsmallwords.com. For smallwords.com. - Is that spelled out as a new F word? - F-O-U-R, smallwords.com. And there's some, you know, you can get the book there if you want. I would love for people to check it out. To be really honest, like as a communicator, so I'm a writer, but I'm also a preacher and communicator. I get the grind. I get how, you know, every fall I'm like, "Okay, Lord, what's the next year going to look like?" - Yes. - So, you know, it's like, I'm going to talk about this. You know, you kind of just, it's that weird dance of the Holy Spirit, isn't it? Where you're like, I'm listening to what's going on in our church and I'm listening to the Spirit. I'm listening to what God's doing in me. And so, you know, I've created a bunch of resources for pastors, a sermon outlined, small groups all around this book because I get it. I totally get it. And those are all free of those resources. And so if that in any way for the folks who listen to your church who are, you know, wanting to maybe teach their community, their community, their church to better understand the Bible, I'd love to provide all that stuff for them. And so they can buy the book of foursmallwars.com and then, you know, we got all kinds of stuff for pastors. - Yeah. And then Soul City Church. - People want to check that out. - Yeah, so I mean, listen, come to Chicago. We'd love to have you. SoulCityChurch.com. - Awesome. - We're right in the heart of the city. And that's the big thing is if you come, come with an appetite 'cause that seems to be all we do around here is eat. - Awesome. - And so, you know, that's the thing like people will like, say, "Hey, I'm come to Chicago." And like sometimes before I tell them about the church, I'm like, "Let me tell you where to go to eat." So I have to remember what my real calling is. It's not to yell. It's actually to the church. But, you know, so I'd love for folks to come visit some time. I'd love to say, "Hey, to them." And if they're ever in Chicago, I'd love for them to come to SoulCity Church and also share what God's doing in our city. - Jared, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for being a guest today. - Yeah, thanks for, I really appreciate you. And I don't say it lightly, Carrie. Like our staff shares your pieces, you know, we'll email different stuff or shares podcast that episodes that you've done. So I'm really, truly grateful and honored that you'd have me on after my wife, of course. (laughing) - Well, I'm thrilled. And thank you so much for being a guest. And thanks for all you do for your church, but also for the kingdom, Jared. - I appreciate you, man. Thanks. - Great. Well, wasn't that refreshing? Hey, you are gonna wanna pick up Jared's new book too. Four Small Words. And you can get that wherever books are sold or you can go to foursmallwords.com. As Jared said, and of course, everything will be in the show notes. So just go to myblog, kerrynuhoff.com/episodes73. You'll find everything Jared talked about and all the links to him and to his church and to his book. And I would love for you to get your hands on a copy. Also, don't forget to check out rethinkleadership.com. That conference is gonna be amazing. It is not the same without you. And it's an exclusive gathering for senior leaders. And I would love for you to be there. That's rethinkleadership.com. End of April in Atlanta, don't miss it. So next week we're coming back with a surprise, actually. I'm playing with the schedule a little bit. So I always record these a few weeks in advance. So if something works out the way, I hope it will. That's where you're gonna hear next week. And otherwise it'll be an other awesome episode. So the best way to make sure you don't miss anything is to subscribe. And thank you so much for making this such a rewarding journey. I really do hope that this episode has helped you lead like never before. - You've been listening to the "Carry Newhof Leadership Podcast." Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (gentle music)