The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 071 - Jenni Catron on Becoming an Extraordinary Leader
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 71 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff, and I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. Today, we are back with Jenny Catrin. And I say back because if you remember, she was my guest back on episode 25, really popular episode. And I just love Jenny's heart for leadership. She is so driven, she's so honest. And it's just any conversation, any interaction with her is so refreshing. And she has just spent the last couple of years, she'll catch us up today at Menlo Park in California, and is in the process of moving on to a whole new venture, which is really exciting, which we'll talk about just a little bit. And so Jenny is just a great friend. She's got a brand new book called The Extraordinary Leader. And you're gonna hear all about extraordinary leadership. So I think you're really, really gonna enjoy it. So hey, if you are new, and this is the first time that you've sort of caught onto the podcast, 'cause you saw someone post about it on social media, it showed up in your news feed, whatever that happens to be, welcome. We're so glad you're here. You're part of a growing community. And a couple of things I would love for you to do, number one, subscribe to the podcast, because if you do, you'll get all the back episodes. Like this is like a free library. We have now 71 episodes, which I'm so excited about. I mean, from leaders like Andy Stanley, Perry Noble, Ravi Zacharias, Craig Grishel. I mean, Jenny's been on it, David Kineman, Will Mancini, who's got a brand new book out. He was on last year. Man, we just have, I mean, Mark Batterson, the list goes on and on and on and on and on. Kara Powell, Pete Wilson. I mean, it's just been, it's been incredible to have so many amazing guests on the podcast. And what's exciting for me is you can just go back and sort of retrieve them whenever you want. So if you haven't subscribed, if you do that, you'll get access to all the back archives for free and you'll never miss a thing. So I started doing bonus episodes called Ask Kerry. We're up to, I think number six now, just came out. And again, those show up randomly and you won't miss it. So if you haven't subscribed, do so. And if you're one of those kind people who loves to leave ratings, I would love for you to do that. Just go to iTunes right now, stitch your tune in radio and leave a radio, leave a radio? No, leave a rating, that would be great. And hey, my hope for you, it's still early in the year, is that you do become a better leader as a result of this. And if you've got a question or you've got some comments or positive feedback, just leave it in the comments section. You'll find everything in the show notes that Jenny and I talk about. And you'll find those at kerrynuhoff.com/episode71. And that blog, kerrynuhoff.com, just my name. It is a place where I'm pretty actively blogging two or three times a week just about trends in the church and what to watch for as a leader, try to help you develop. Whether you are somebody who cares about the church and you lead in a business context, or whether you're on church staff or a church volunteer, I hope that's a great headquarters for you. And again, I mean, you think this podcast has archives, there are hundreds of articles that are in the archives on the blog too, that are just free leadership resources for you. So there you go. Anyway, if you're new, welcome, really glad you're here. And in the meantime, let's jump right into my interview with Jenny Catrin. - Really thrilled to have Jenny Catrin back on the podcast, Jenny, welcome. - Thanks, Kerry. Always love having a great conversation about leadership with you. So looking forward to today. - Well, I'm really excited about today. I heard you present some of the ideas for what we're gonna talk about at the Orange Conference last year, where you were on the senior leader track. That's all grown up into like the ReThink Leadership Conference this year. - That's awesome. - Which is gonna be a lot of fun. It's got its own conference, its own deal. But you've been talking and you just released a new book called The Four Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership. Do you really think that is the longest title in the world? (Kerry laughs) I heard you say that. - Yeah, it is pretty long, especially if you add the subtitle to it, which is the power of leading from your heart, soul, mind, and strength. So if you try to say both the title and the subtitle, it's probably not the longest ever, but it's a mouthful. - Well, thanks so much for being on the podcast, Jenny. You know, that used up our time today. - No, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't. I know, I've got my leading change without losing it has a subtitle. I haven't memorized yet. You would think you would memorize that as the author, but I think it's like five revolutionary strategies that can transform your approach to change. - I love it, yeah. - That's like leading change without losing it blah blah. That's like 700 words. So anyway, again, anyway, it's a great book from what I've seen of it. It's an excellent book and congratulations on that. So I'm gonna start with just this idea. You challenge the classic definition. - Yeah. - That leadership is influence. 'Cause I've kind of used that as a working definition many other have and you know, that's Maxwell and I know you love Maxwell and have learned so much from him, but tell us your different take, your unique spin on this idea that leadership is more than just influence. - Yeah, you know, I think that, I mean, I've always said leadership, you know, it's the Maxwell quote, leadership is influence, but I think leadership begins with influence, but I think influence can become really positive or negative really fast. And, you know, so you think about some of the, you know, folks throughout history and, you know, I wouldn't enjoy calling like Adolf Hitler a great leader, you know? - He had a lot of influence though. - He had a lot of influence. So that's really kind of where I'm going from. At the spectrum of leadership I suggest in the book that I'd like to see leadership redefined a little bit because I think leadership is really about influencing of, it is about influencing others, but it's about what, I think it's more than that. It's what is that, what is that influence? And if it's a negative, I wish we had a different word for people who have influence that are terrors, you know? And maybe that's the term. But I just pose in the book that I think, you know, God honoring leadership, I think is a lot more than just influence because we can use our influence for good or for bad. And I think in the book I'm really trying to help us recognize that I think true leadership at its core is so much more, it begins with influence, but it's so much more. - Yeah, so you're really looking at the positive side of influence, how do I have, 'cause you're right, influence is kind of neutral. You have it either, you know, it could be negative or it could be positive, I totally get that. So how do you know the impact of your leadership? Like you got a lot of leaders listening right now and they might be going, okay, how do I know whether I'm using my leadership for good or whether I'm one of those people, not a Hitler, but like one of those people, it's like I don't think goodness they're not leading anymore. How do you know that kind of thing? - Right, you know, I think that can be challenging because part of a leadership seat, part of, you know, when we get into a position of leadership and authority, it becomes that much more challenging for people to actually speak truth to us. And so I think part of our self-leadership, and I talk a lot, this was a lot in my last book and then even one of the chapters here in this book, I talk a lot about self-leadership. And that's probably one of the biggest drums that I have a passion for sounding as a leader is the importance of self-leadership in that we have to lead ourselves well, the lead others better. And part of that self-leadership is in this case, knowing, making sure you know the people in your life who will actually speak truth, who will actually give you good feedback, positioning yourself so that there's somebody who's always pouring into and developing you while you're also pouring into and developing the people that you lead. 'Cause the danger of leadership, I think, is when we're at a place where we're leading and influencing lots of people, but we don't have somebody who's doing that for us. And so I think it starts there. I think we've got to make sure that there are voices who can speak into our lives to say, you know what, the staff really aren't loving that decision you made there and they're all nodding their head and because they think that's what you want them to do, but they actually are really frustrated by this and they don't think that you'll hear their feedback. And that happens a lot to us as leaders and that we'll make a decision that we think is wonderful and everybody nods and plays along because they're being good employees or volunteers or whatever the scope of your influence is. But if you haven't created a culture where they're able to give you honest, true feedback and they feel safe in doing that, you're never going to know if you're a good leader or a bad leader, so to speak. And I think a lot of times leadership is most observed in hindsight. So that's the danger of leadership is that oftentimes our extraordinary leadership is really more observable in hindsight as we reflect on our stories and we, because leadership and extraordinary leadership, I think is made up of the little things that we do every day, how we handle ourselves, how we conduct ourselves, how our character shows up. And as we impact the book, we're talking about the importance of heart, soul, mind and strength and leadership. And when we bring those things to leadership, we actually see, we start to see evidence in our everyday activities. And so it's the collection of all the little leadership moments, not just one big grand event. - Gotcha. Okay, and we're gonna get into the four dimensions of leadership, but you've cracked open and interesting whatever metaphor I'm searching for, but you've done it, it's a really good point. So how do leaders end up creating the kind of environment in a small church or a large church where everybody is afraid to tell them the truth? Because we've all been there, we've all been on the other side of that leader and it's like, you know, I really need to tell Jenny, I'm not gonna be the one to tell Jenny, are you gonna be the one to tell Jenny, I'm not gonna be the one to tell Jenny, let's not tell Jenny, or you soft pedal it, right? You're like, well, you know, maybe that wasn't your best effort when really everyone's going, man, that's stunk. How do you become the leader? How does it get to the point where nobody wants to tell you? - Yeah, I think that it's a lot when we wear our fear and insecurity on our sleeve. You know, when those things, it could be fear, it could be pride, it could be insecurity, a little self-consciousness, that goes back to the self-leadership piece 'cause it's like, I've got to know what's triggering and insecurity because typically if I feel insecure or uncertain about something that I'm leading through, I'm gonna put up a wall that looks like I'm even more confident, but that's a wall that's very like off-putting to other people, like they feel that, they sense that, that's like, that's an untouchable topic and it's very much in what we project with our attitude or we might be dismissive or we might not leave space. Like I know, typically we know as a leader when we're not just knocking it out of the park, you know? Like we know in our gut and I think we've got to slow down enough to be sensitive and aware of that. And then I think one of the things that is valuable in that situation too is as the leader, I need to open it up to the people around me 'cause well, they know they can tell me, I'll always receive their feedback, but sometimes you need to go to your team or to a trusted friend or even a peer, but particularly the people you lead and say, hey, you know what, I don't feel like I did my best when I led through this meeting or when I did this talk or could you give me some feedback about what you observed? And if you will let the guard down and acknowledge, that wasn't my best moment. Can you help me understand what I could have done better? You're permissioning them to give you that feedback. And you know, so again, there's lots of little things that you're creating along the way, but every time you're not inviting that feedback, you're putting up those walls and creating that distance that makes people feel like you're untouchable, you can't be questioned, you can't receive feedback. And it becomes a culture where, well, we just don't talk about those things, you know? - Right, and so yeah, a good sign can be if you're a leader and you can't remember the last time you asked someone for honest feedback, you may be that person. Yeah, that's a really good point. And you know what, it never gets comfortable, Jenny, like I had an evening this week where I got some feedback from senior leaders that like really set off my insecurities and my defensiveness. And I mean, the meeting went well, it went fine. I said permission to speak freely and they did speak freely. And I was like- - No, okay, I didn't mean that free. - Right, yeah. - Tell me what I want to hear, but you need leaders like that in your life. And then the next day I kind of unpacked it and everything was fine and I misheard a few things that, you know, but it never gets easy to hear that. But if you want to create a healthy culture, you just have to be that way. I think that's such a good point. I think maybe it was in another interview. I heard you do maybe on the church leaders podcast, which I'm a raving fan of, Brian Orm interviewed you. And I think it might've been you or it was someone else who said, you know, the bigger you get as a leader, the harder it is to get feedback. Like the larger your organization, the more insulated you become. - Can you tell us a little bit about that dynamic? Because it's not, you know, there's some large church pastors and leaders and leaders of large organizations who listen to this podcast and, you know, you're probably wondering why it's so quiet in the C suite. You know, well, that's pretty natural that the more successful you become, the more hesitant people are to tell you the truth. - Yeah. - So explain that dynamic. - Yeah, you know, it does. It just feels kind of like the natural progression. And I think it has a lot to do with the more influence, the more success, if so to speak, that we have. And it sometimes feels like a little bit of a weird word in ministry. But the more accomplishments, the more your church is growing, the more, you know, you're reaching the community, the more wonderful things you're doing. You know, there is a healthy respect that often accompanies that. And that the people that are following you, the people that are serving alongside you, the, you know, your staff, they admire, they respect you, they're grateful for your leadership. I mean, I'm sure we all, you know, have our things that aggravate all of the teams that we serve with. But, but when everything feels like it's going up and to the right, people will ignore some of the little things or seemingly little things or feel like, oh, well, I don't want to. - Kerry's really a goof, but look at how successful he is. - Right. - That kind of thing? - Yeah, that kind of thing. And so we'll kind of let some little things slide 'cause we're like, well, it seems to be working, so maybe that's not as big of an issue. Or maybe I don't need to ask about that. Or, or maybe that leader's not really going to care because that, you know, and so there's lots of, I think there's a lot of things that contribute to that and every culture is a little bit different. But I think it's just the natural progression of the more the organization grows, the more people that are following and serving in under that leader, the more isolated you become. And I think then we as the leader have to be more intentional about surrounding ourselves with people that aren't just yes men or women, but are people that are able to speak truth. And, and again, it's not that it's all ugly or bad, but it's for our health and our development and our growth. And yeah, so it's hard to point- - No, I think that's true. - Yeah. - You know, you need not yes people. And then you need to be able to ask them, you know, is Jeff, our mutual friend, Jeff Henderson would say, what's it like to be on the other side of me? - Yes. - You know? And some days it's wonderful. And some days, not really. So, you know, you have to get in the habit. The higher up you go, the more you have to solicit that feedback. And self-awareness is just so huge. And I know that's a passion point for you. And I think it really, you know, there's a lot of things that distinguish good leaders from great leaders, but I don't think you become a great leader without self-awareness. And that's huge for you, isn't it? - It is. - I write about that a lot. I write about that a lot. And I think it's just so critical to our leadership development. And, you know, there's a ton of conversation, both in marketplace and ministry, about emotional intelligence and our understanding of how we influence the people around us, how they're perceiving us, what, you know, emotional reaction we're inciting. And so I just think there's, I think that wisdom, that self-awareness, it becomes ever more important, the more leadership responsibility we have. - I agree. You know, I have this question I developed a few years ago and a friend's I joke with about this, but it's like, okay, some days I just need to think, what would an emotionally intelligent person do? Because I'm not that person right now. I gotta go do it. I had one of those days this week. It's like, if I was an emotionally intelligent person, what would I do right now? So I called a friend and he told me what, an emotionally intelligent person would do, which was sort of the opposite of what I felt like doing. Anyway, great stuff. - Yeah, that's wisdom, Kerry. Yeah. - So take us through the four dimensions of leadership, of extraordinary leadership. Tell us about that. - Well, and I'll give you a little bit of the backstory on this too. You know, I've worked with staff teams in the marketplace and ministry, almost equal amounts of time. And, you know, in the leadership seats that I've been in, I would often see either people who were really driven and would get a lot accomplished, but they'd leave a lot of people in the wake, you know? Like they would just run people over. - Bodies everywhere. - Bodies everywhere, yeah, it'd be a mess. Or you'd have people who had tremendous heart for people and their staffs, but it was like, could you please get the plan done? Could you please just move something forward? Everybody singing kumbaya loves one another, but we're not doing anything. - Right on. And so I would wrestle with trying to create a framework of leadership for our team to say, hey, we need to be mindful of all these things. So I would talk about the importance of relational leadership, the importance of spiritual leadership, the importance of strategic leadership and the importance of visionary leadership. And so I began teaching like around those themes regularly and just, you know, helping our teams recognize we really need to be striking a balance or aware enough of how strong am I in one or the other? And, you know, for me, I'm very strategic. So I have to be really purposeful about relational influence and relational leadership because that one, I leave the bodies and, you know, in the way, if I'm not careful. And so when I was framing up this book, the purpose of, you know, the premise of this book was all about those dimensions of leadership and how I really believe those dimensions can lead to us becoming extraordinary leaders when we learn to lead from all four. But I was trying to figure out, it was a little clunky. I was like, oh, is there a good acronym? Is there like, you know, what do I do with these to kind of frame them up? And I was reading back through the gospels and came across the passage where, you know, Jesus is, you know, he's dealing with subjects like, you know, taxes and, you know, some real exciting things like that. But then he gives us the great commandment, which he's, you know, reflecting back to the chemo out of Deuteronomy. And he says, you know, the great commandment is love the Lord and your God with all of your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength. And the light bulb just came on and I thought those are the four dimensions right there. And I studied that passage a little bit 'cause I was like, I need to understand a little more of what, you know, what the great commandment is really saying. I mean, it's kind of understandable. And I was like, why those four things? Heart, soul, mind and strength. And as I unpacked it, the implication of that is that that's our whole being, that heart, soul, mind and strength is our whole being. And that to me was, that is what we need to bring to leadership as well. So the great commandment, obviously, love the Lord and our God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love others, done. Like, okay, we get that. But so what does that mean then to apply it to leadership? Because I think we bring our best leadership extraordinary leadership, great leadership can happen when we bring our whole selves. And often what I've seen with leaders was we would bring what came most naturally. So strategy came most naturally to me. So I would just leave full force with that. But in doing so, you know, I wasn't the, I would be criticized sometimes in ministry of not being spiritual enough. And it wasn't that my heart wasn't for ministry and that I didn't have, you know, a relationship that I was actively pursuing God. But I would lead all with strategy because that was the thing that I knew and was comfortable with. I have some friends in ministry that have, you know, just tremendous heart, really relational and love people well. But they had trouble sometimes getting, moving the ball forward, kind of, you know, having a-- - Nothing ever got done. - Yeah. Likewise, you know, folks that were strong in spiritual leadership were wonderful pastors and shepherds, but might lack, again, the strategy or the vision piece. And so anyway, so that became the framework to me. And that's how I unpack it in the book is that I do believe that heart, soul, mind, and strength can bring a balance and a health to our leadership that can serve others, the love God, love others in tremendous ways. But the framework gives us just a way to kind of keep a pulse on our leadership development. It helps me, again, I'll just use my example of, as a strategic leader, as a very strong mind leader, if you will, if I'm thinking through, okay, as I lead through this critical season, this event, the strategy and the planning are good. And I know that's what I'm gonna bring to the equation. That's the best that I'm gonna bring that really strong and really well. But how do I make sure heart is shows up? How do I make sure soul is there? How do I make sure the strength of vision is helping carry this forward? And it's not just my goals and plans and tactics because that's gonna only get us so far. So that's the premise of the book and obviously I'm pretty passionate about it, cause-- - Yeah, no, that's really good. But some people might look at that and say, well, I'm just, I'm into mind, I'm into strategy. I'm a strategic leader and God created other people to be pastoral. And I know lots of pastoral people who lead with the heart would say, yeah, I'm just not strategic. And they did their right path or personality assessment and they're happy to live in that quadrant, if you wanna say that, you know? So if it's a circle and there are four quadrants or pieces, I just live in the heart, you know? You can live in the mind and someone else lives in the strength. And so what do you say to that? Like, no God is calling you to more? - I do think God is calling you to more. I think that, and I have an assessment in the book. I also have it free on my website that you can take and just get a sense for which one are you naturally strong and which one are you a little weaker in. So that's a great resource you probably know, just by the definition, most leaders won't, yeah, but I'm probably strong in this one and this one and we can this one and this one. So I would say, I'm not suggesting that you're gonna become great at all four. I think God has gifted you in one or two of them more than the others. And that's naturally where your, you know, your personality, your giftedness, all of that's gonna show up. I'm just saying don't minimize the opportunity to grow in each of those 'cause personally, I've seen myself grow so much in heart and soul because, and this is kind of where I'm getting to next is because you put people around you who do those well. So a great example for me in both of my, both in my marketplace and in my ministry time at cross point in particular, I had, in the marketplace I had a peer who was really strong in heart. And I talk about her in the book, her name is Kat. And she actually drove me crazy. Now Envision, we were young 20 somethings like leading in the marketplace together. We were peers so we were a little bit competitive because we both were looking for promotions and she was remarkable in heart. Like she loved people well. She would talk to, you know, some of our clients radio stations and different things. And she would just, I mean, she was their best friend. She knew all about their families and then we'd get paired for projects. And I'd feel like I was the one who was always just, you know, like actually, yeah, driver, getting stuff done. And so I didn't play. I actually did the work. Exactly, yep. Well, you had a hot chocolate. But you're over there talking. I'm getting the work done. But I'll never forget there was one, one week we were, I worked in the music business and we were with a recording artist in some city at a radio station. And I'm annoyed because we've got a plane to catch. We've got to get going. So I'm out in the car with the artist and Kat is still back in the radio station. And I'm like, what, where is she? What is she doing? So I go track her down and she's finishing up a conversation. She's given this radio DJ, this big old bear hug. And she's closed the deal. They've decided to add the song. Like, and if I had rushed out of there 10 minutes earlier, we wouldn't have, you know, gotten the deal done and like confirmed the song got added to their rotation, you know? So I'm like frustrated but happy because her, her way worked. Like her relational side kind of helped make that happen. And then in ministry, I had a great, you may have met Ashley Warren who worked with me, Carrie at Crosspoint. - Yeah, maybe briefly. - Yeah. - You may have met her. I'm not sure. She's wonderful. She's still on staff there and, but she worked alongside me and Ashley was just, she just has tremendous heart and soul. Like she is just, she's just a gift. And I chuckle because in both of those seasons, God put somebody around me who had just remarkable heart. And in the case with Ashley, she was actually my assistant at Crosspoint. And, but Ashley was the one that like when I would be leading through an initiative and we'd be, you know, and we were always doing something big and outrageous at Crosspoint. And so the driver in me was always pushing pretty aggressively. And Ashley was the one who would tell me, hey, Jenny, you know what? I think the staff are feeling a little tired. And she didn't overuse this. Like she used good discernment in this too. So it wasn't that, you know, because when she spoke up, then I really learned to listen and I learned to trust her instincts. And it also made it, I have seen myself over time, learn to, you know, as I'm, as I'm planning an initiative or working on a strategy, before I roll it out, I will go check in with somebody with heart and say, hey, well, how do you think people are going to respond to this? I'll go to somebody who's strong and soul and say, hey, as we share this, will you spend some time praying about this for us? Or will you lead, you know, prayer around this when we get to the meeting? Because if I knew it, it could be, could come across as disingenuous because I'm driving forward. - Right, right, right, right. We should pray just to make sure this is okay. - Yeah, on my tick list. But if I go to people who that is their strength and I say, hey, will you pray about this? Will you give me feedback? Or will you pray with the team, you know, on the other side of this so that we just have really great wisdom of how to move forward? And then the visionary piece, obviously, you know, somebody who's, you know, put somebody around you who can help bring that piece. So all of that to say really long-winded response to that. But I think the people around you are as important as, it completes the team. You know, as you look to have all four dimensions show up in your leadership team, I think that's rather than expecting that you're going to be exceptional at all of them, make sure you just have people that bring that to the table. - Well, and I wonder what I hear you saying is if you don't do that, if you're not sensitive to the fact that, you know, I can be a bulldozer at times and I have to be sensitive to the heart and to the soul and so on, that kind of stunts your growth as a leader, doesn't it? It really, yeah. - And potentially the growth of the organization. I mean, think about it. How many times do you look at a church or a ministry? And, you know, I know there are a number of churches that are criticized for being too business, too corporate. Well, that tells me the heart and soul might be lacking a little bit. Now it's all based on somebody's perspective and there's all kinds of nuances in that. But sometimes somebody will have that criticism of a culture and it may be because they lead a lot with mind and strength and perhaps they're a little light on heart and soul, which sounds a little funny in ministry, but it happens frequently. Or the flip flop of that. You have a ton of heart and soul, but there's not a lot of mind and strength and so you don't have a lot of growth. You don't see a lot of vision for the future. They're struggling with how to reach a new generation. Like, you know, I mean-- - Yeah, and ironically, you don't have a lot of life change to show for it either. You're all heart and you're all soul, but you're not baptizing anybody. And if you're really honest, you're probably not growing as much even spiritually as you could be. - Yeah. - Ah, okay, this is really good. So your natural style of leadership, Jenny, is? - Mind, yeah. - Mind, mind. And that, let's start there. Walk us through a mind leader. I want every listener, every leader to find themselves in, you know, home base, home plate. - Right. - Sort of your, you know, what's your territory? Is it hard? So yours is mind. Tell us what a mind leader, you know, is like. - You know, I think for somebody who's strong in mind, it's a lot about the strategy. It's a lot about the management and practices. A lot of operational stuff will show up here. So for me, my spiritual gifts, my top tour leadership and administration. So, you know, somebody strong in mind has an eye for the details, has an eye for, you know, you're the person who likes to build, set the one year, five year, 10 year goals. You like to have, you know, the strategic plan mapped out. If you can't tie an action to the strategic plan, you start to short circuit a little bit. And, you know, so that person is the person who's really always planning and thinking ahead, who, you know, is bringing that to the equation. They also can be the person who is hyper about policies, procedures, you know, all of those that we're following protocol, so to speak. And again, again, that in a healthy balance is valuable and important. It can, I talk in the book too, about some of the dark sides of each of these. You know, when you become too much of one, you can, you know, you can. - So you've shared a little bit about your dark side, like bodies everywhere or your steam roller over people's emotions sometime. - Yeah. - What are some other shadow sides of that straight? - It really has a lot to do with the missing people. The, the, the just not slowing down to see people and to see how they're impacted, how they're. So for me, it's, this is a good example of the difference between task and people, you know, and that a lot of different assessments bring that up of like, are you a task person? Are you a people person? Will somebody strong in mind is going to naturally be all about the task, all about the thing to get done? And you're really going to miss just people, their emotions, how they're feeling, even how you're feeling. So for me, part of my self awareness as a person who's strong in mind leadership, I will not even be aware of how I'm feeling about a situation or a circumstance, you know, because I'm just powering through. I'm just bulldozing my way through. And so I think somebody who's strong in mind who's got that strategic dimension of leadership really needs to push themselves to slow down more. And it's counterintuitive to our instinct. Our instinct is to just keep driving. And we have to learn, you know, the, the slowing down to see people and see how they're impacted. Cause oftentimes you'll look up and all of a sudden you might have a team of people just doing their job because they're doing their job. Cause it, you know, they need, they need the paycheck and they need the responsibility. - Yeah. - You're pretty isolating. You're pretty lonely. - Gotcha. Yeah. - Okay. So take us through another one of the four strengths. - Yeah. I think the four styles, the dimensions, we talked, we've talked quite a bit about heart. I think the, the strength piece. I say that one is all about being a visionary leader because I think we provide strength to the team, strength to the organization when we can provide the vision for the future. And vision is all about hope. So those things all go, go hand in hand. So I think the strength dimension you're in it's oftentimes a senior leader is a person who's typically pretty strong in the strength dimension. They have a vision for the future. They know where you want to go. They won't as much be the person who can tactically get you there, but they will be, they'll have the grandiose ideas. Now the danger of strength is that you have a new idea every day and so you exhaust your team because it's like, well, today we're doing this. And then tomorrow we're doing this. And you know, and so they move on. So the danger for somebody strong in strength is they have to be able to really discern and sense God's calling vision for the future and then discipline themselves to be committed to that. Now. - To follow it. - To follow it. They're probably going to put somebody around them, you know, that's wired more in mind and strategy like me to say, hey, okay, go help us figure out how to get this done because they're not going to enjoy typically a lot of the tactics and, you know, the busy work of getting the vision accomplished. So they need to pair themselves with people who are going to help make that happen. But that visionary leader, that strength leader is going to be that person who's always running a little but further out in front, you know, they're aware of the potential, the opportunities, they see possibility on the horizon. And the other important piece for this is that that leader needs to be the person who is constantly reminding the team of the importance of the vision. You know, Bill Heibels always says vision leaks. And, you know, so it's got to be that person who is helping keep that vision in front of the team. - I think that's probably where I land. I mean, I was resonating, I was resonating a little bit with a strength part. I'm sorry with the, what you are. - And strategy. - Thank you. - Yep. - Thank you. You see, I can't even think about the mind. But anyway, so yeah, I was resonating with that, but that sounds more like an operations executive type role, whereas this is senior leader living in the land of possibility, dreamer, dealer of dreams and hopes and the future, you know, I have good friends who say, "Man, you just live in the future." I'm like, "Yeah, that's my side." - Yeah. - So I get that. And you can leave people in the dust and you can not execute and you're good at starting, but not good at following through, et cetera, et cetera. - Yeah, yep. - So, okay, I get that. I get that. All right, let's go to the soft side then. Let's go to heart and soul. You talked a little bit about heart, but just in a nutshell, just clear picture for people who are heart people. 'Cause there's a lot in the church. Oh my gosh. - Yeah, yep. And heart people are, you know, they think people first, they're just super aware of how others are impacted. They're the people that, again, you know, in a new initiative or a, you know, decision is made, particularly, you know, within a staff, they're gonna be more concerned about how everybody feels about it than, you know, they're gonna be at odds with the visionary, you know, 'cause the visionary is like-- - Feelings, what? - Yeah. - People are feelings, okay. - Yeah, exactly. - Who thought of that? - Yeah, what's that about? Don't you see the gold? Don't you see where we can be? Don't you see the potential? And they will be very aware and sensitive to, you know, how the team, how the congregation, how the people you serve are gonna be impacted by it. So that's key to heart, the folks with heart. They're typically thinking people first. That's probably the best synopsis for them. And I'm terrible with this one, so I probably-- - Yeah, yeah, that's like, that's short section of the book. It's just like, that's what these people are like. Do you think that's one of the reasons change is so difficult in the church? Because there are so many heart people there that they just feel the pain associated with change, and then they just don't wanna put people through it. - Yeah, I really think so. And I think typically, you know, you'll see churches that have difficulty with change because they may have a lot of people strong in heart. They might be lacking somebody with vision and strength. And so when those things aren't working together well, then you're gonna see divide, you're gonna see dissension, you're gonna see frustration or tension within the organization or the church. And so I think particularly in the church, because of we're all about people, which at like whatever seat we sit, and this is why all of us have to learn, at least to grow a little bit in each of the four dimensions, because particularly in the church, we can't forsake the people, you know? But if we get bogged down in the fear of how they'll feel about it, none of us like the idea of change, if we get stuck worrying about how we feel about it. But when you have somebody strong in vision who's coming along and saying, okay, here's where we're going, here's why we're going, here's the people we're thinking about as we cast this vision, the people that we aren't yet reaching, you start, you can add a little heart to that vision casting to remind them that it is about who we're reaching and is about, you know, that vision isn't just about, I wanna build this grand thing, or, you know, there's really still people behind all of that, especially in ministry. So I think those things have to be operating together. And typically, I think when you see churches in particular stuck, it's because, you know, one of those dimensions is really overpowering the other. Yeah, the heart is missing the strength in the mind. I get that. Yeah, people often ask me, 'cause I'm a change guy, I do a lot of change, I've done a lot of change, and they're like, wow, how did you engineer so much change? Part of it, being a strength person is, I honestly miss some of those dynamics like where people might be afraid or, you know, have ambiguous emotions. And I'm just like, well, I think it's positive, so let's go. But that is a gift that the church actually needs as well as the gift of heart. Okay, so soul is left. Yeah. Ironic that a strength in mind person leaves soul to the last, but anyway, I get that. So tell us about soul. Yeah, soul is really the spiritual component of leadership. And it is, obviously this one feels a little obvious in the church, but ironically, I think it's something that can get missed in the church, 'cause we will be focused on the people we're serving with our Sunday experiences, or our small groups, or our Sunday school, or whatever the ministry environment is. And we will even get really focused on the implementation of all of that. And we will miss a little bit of the soul of it, or particularly church staff, or a lot, yeah. Or church staff can be guilty of this again, in that we're just going through all the motions of all the things that have to get done during the week. But are we stopping as a team to pray for one another? Are we stopping to pray about the direction and the vision and where we're going and how we're getting there? There's a ton of implication, obviously, in a church or a ministry setting, but then people will often push back on this one for me about people in the marketplace, 'cause they're like, well, Jenny, I can't, you know, my faith can't be that prominent in the marketplace to which I understand and I agree, but I think we can lead with tremendous soul without it being out front and center. So I think as leaders, we have a responsibility to pray for our teams. Paul, in one of his writings, I think it's Ephesians, but it's escaping me right now, he's praying for wisdom for the church. He's in prison. You know, he can't actually lead them physically because he's in prison. He's confined, but his letter says he's praying for wisdom for them. And I think this is so important because we as ministry leaders will, or I mean, as just leaders in general, will think that the wisdom has to come from us. And I love Paul's perspective on it because he is praying for wisdom for his team, for those church planners, for those early church leaders. And I think that's important. So if you're in a marketplace situation, you can pray for wisdom for your team. They don't have to know you're praying. That's between you and God, but that you're praying for them, you're praying for their families, you're praying for their relationships with one another, that you're praying about the job and, you know, the organization. And so I think just the spiritual leadership, the soul leadership is a lot about our prayer life as leaders and that we're make, I think it keeps us rightly balanced in staying tethered to the reality that this is still gods. Like, and even though I have accomplished a lot, I am capable of a lot 'cause we can find a lot of our own strength and power. You know, the more leadership we've had, the more experiences we've had, the more we can just be kind of comfortable and doing it in our own power. And I think that part of the dimension of leadership really keeps us focused on we are still, it is still ultimately gods and we're still accountable. And we lead because of his provision. - No, that's a really good word because I think we can all relate either personally or to people we know that often, you know, the soul is a casualty of ministry. And we see that in organizations and in people and churches and in people. So Jenny, when you look over the broad church and you don't just work in a local church, you think about the wider church like me, you're passionate about that. Do you think there's an area of the four where we are over-represented to our detriment and one as a rule where we're under-represented as a detriment, like when you just look at church trends, broadly speaking, can you identify that specifically or not really? - That's a great question, Carrie. I mean, I think we are, I fear we're a little under-represented in the soul and the spiritual dimension of leadership. I think particularly a lot of our younger churches, we've gotten much more sophisticated and savvy at growth and development which is wonderful because the people who are coming to Jesus because of that, I mean, that is enormous and it's wonderful. In some spaces, I think we've become, we have the danger of becoming a machine, a bit of a church engine, so to speak. And so, but that, like, I hesitate to make blanket statements 'cause I think you see it pocketed. But I think the soul piece that dimension could be possibly misrepresent or under-represented. Gosh, you know, it's interesting, Carrie, because it's like, as I work with different churches, you know, different churches will have a glaring weakness in one of the four than another. And so I think, yeah, what do you think about that? - Well, I just think growing churches, so the kind of churches that you and I frequent, a growing church will often be under-represented in heart and soul, but very strong in mind and strength. - Mind and strength. And plateaued or declining churches, over-strong in heart and soul, under-represented in mind and strength. I don't know if you can make characterizations or blanket statements, does that resonate at all? - That does, that's actually a healthy distinction in that I think that's true. And I think it, I wonder, I'm curious, I don't have anything to back this up specifically, but I wonder if there's a generational piece in there too. - Okay. You know, that, well, I'm thinking, you know, as you look at Genex and Millennials, you know, are we seeing more of that mind and strength? Some, again, some of these fast-growing younger churches that, you know, we very much love being a part of. - Right, yeah. - But then, you know, again, your, your churches that have been around a bit longer that are declining or plateauing, you know, often will have a stronger segment of older generations. And, and so it is a lot more about heart and soul. And I think you're at a season of life then too, where you are, you've done the drive hard, you know, in marketplace or, and so you do want church to be a place where it's just that, that it isn't, it isn't so fast-changing and, you know, and, and, so I don't know, I'm curious how much generational - Yeah, I wonder, you know, when you think of Boomer, you think of, you know, leaders who are really, and you're not a Boomer at all, you're a Gen Xer, I would assume you're a millennial right on that bubble. And I'm a Gen Xer, barely, but, you know, I think more of Boomer's being mind and strength, like the CEO type, and then in the emerging churches with really young, like really that are doing a great job with millennial, I see more of a balance. I see, I see growth. It's just really interesting. - That is interesting. - Church-friend, trans, rather, and, you know, I live in the future, so. - Yeah. - Now, Jenny. - Well, that's good. - This has been super helpful. And, you know, people can make their own interpretation, but I think you've challenged us all, not to just rely on our strengths, but also to push a little bit harder, and that's where growth comes from, and that's where you really grow, and you become a more emotionally aware, emotionally intelligent leader, and a more balanced leader in terms of where God wants us to be. So, people are gonna wanna know more, and then you've got an interesting shift coming up in your life. I think last time we talked to you, it was, you were shifting, and now you're shifting, something brand new. That's okay. I mean, you're gonna be one of those frequent guests that we just get to catch up on your fascinating life. - I have spent the last two years out here in California at Menlo Park, Prez, and was on the leadership team there for two years, and had a great run, a great experience in a church that has had tremendous influence in the Bay Area, so that's been fun. And then, but since God kind of prompting me and leading me on to, as this book was releasing, and to step more into some of the leadership coaching that I've been doing for, kind of on the side for a number of years, I've done coaching groups for mostly women leaders, although I enjoy coaching all, particularly executive leaders, senior leaders. I love coming alongside great leaders and helping them do what I say is lead through critical moments. So one of the things that God has been just helping me understand even more so about myself is, I have such a love for the global church, and I'm so fascinated to see what the church is doing throughout the world, but particularly our senior leaders that are in places where they're doing their best to influence their community and lead their organizations. And a lot of times, it's the old familiar phrase what got you here won't get you there. And oftentimes, when a church or a ministry is going through transitions or changes or growth spurts or it could be a crisis as well, that how that leader, a lot of your ability to get through that critical moment comes down to that leader and that leadership team learning to lead and think differently. And Carrie, you know this well, 'cause you've led through so many changes and just you're wired to do that. So you know how critical it is that it can hinge on that leader's ability to lead differently. - And you have to become a different person and you have to behave and think differently than you did in a previous stage. Otherwise, you're gonna get stuck in the stage you're currently in. - Exactly, so that is what I will be doing. We'll be making a more of announcement after the first of the year, but working alongside churches, nonprofits, and helping their leaders in those critical moments. And I love being kind of an extension of a team. I'm not one of those that likes to pop in, give you the plan and then dart out. Like I really love to come in and I love the word coach 'cause I love to come alongside a leader and their team and say, hey, let me come alongside and help coach you through this critical moment, through this critical season. So I'll be doing that more after the new year. Obviously the book is a big priority and we just relaunched my website, jennycantron.com and I'm blogging more and getting back into all of that. - Do you want to spell that just for everybody? 'Cause it's Jenny with an "I" and then just everybody. - Yeah, it's jennycantron.com. J-E-N-N-I-C-A-T-R-O-N.com. - Okay, great. And when you sort of roll out this whole coaching thing, that'll all be featured on jennycantron.com as well. - Exactly, yep. - And your target date for that, spring 2016? - Spring 2016, yeah, it's cool. - Yeah, that's cool. So whenever you're listening to this, whether it's live or months or years down the road, you can get more information on that. Jenny, as always, so refreshing, so exciting. And I'm excited for you and her book is "The Four Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership." You can get that wherever books are sold or just go to jennycantron.com. Thanks, Jenny. - Awesome. Thanks so much, Carrie. - Isn't Jenny just so energizing? I mean, I just love that a better. She's just so driven, so snappy. It just makes me feel like, I don't know, I need to do more. I need to be more extraordinary, so it's so good. So you'll wanna pick up a copy of her book and you can find everything at jennycantron.com. And Jenny, thanks so much for being on the podcast. Once again, I know we will have you back. You just helped so many leaders. And if you want anything we talked about in the interview, just go to the show notes, carrynewhough.com/episode71. And we got some exciting guests coming up in the next little while. If you haven't subscribed, do so, because here's who you are going to be able to connect with in the next little while. You're gonna hear next week from Matt Keller, who's got a brand new book out, which is sort of about the key to everything. Then we're gonna talk about your marriage with Kim Kimberling, Whit George, from church on the move is gonna be my guest. Jonathan Pearson, who does a lot of work with millennials. If you heard a couple episodes ago, Hayden Shaw, a completely different take on reaching millennials, that was episode 69. Also back on the podcast, we got Andy Stanley coming up again this year. Ravi Zacharias is gonna come back and do a dedicated interview. Perry Noble is coming back in just a short time and gonna talk about something new that God's put on his heart. So it's gonna be great. I am so excited that you guys are part of the community and can't wait until next Tuesday. In the meantime, I hope you have a fantastic week. Thanks so much for tuning in. And I hope this helps you lead like never before. - You've been listening to the "Carry Newhoff Leadership" podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]