The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 068 - Joe Sangl on How to Increase Giving At Your Church and Help for Bi-Vocations Pastors
[MUSIC] >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal to help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. [MUSIC] >> Well, hey everybody, welcome to episode 68 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff and hey, depending on when you're listening to this, a very happy new year. Can you believe it? There's just a couple of days left in 2015. And this actually marks the very end of the first complete year of the podcast. You made it awesome. And for those of you who have subscribed, you didn't miss a beat, did you? You caught all the bonus episodes. You had all kinds of fun and I am just so glad for you. And so wherever you are, happy new year, if you're listening to this like months, years later, hey, happy day wherever you are. But I am so excited today to introduce you to Joe Sangle. Joe has been a friend, not only a mind but of our ministry at Connectsus Church where I serve for about five years now. And Joe has just some incredible ideas on money. And last week we had Chris Brown and he talked about personal finances. So I asked Joe to come on as we get ready to go into a new year. And I know you've got financial goals and I know you've got challenges for your church. Hey, if you're a church leader, here's my guess. You have more vision than you do money. True? >> Yeah. >> We all do. If you're a visionary church leader, that's what you've got. You're gonna love this episode cuz Joe just sort of comes alongside and says, hey, we've all been there and here's some practical ideas to help you. So Joe is the president and CEO of Enjoy Stewardship Solutions. He is also the fatter in the president of Iowa's Broke. Now I'm not his personal finance ministry, which we're gonna talk about how you can help your church people win with money, as well as how we can help your church win with money. So there's some really good ideas I think you're gonna find it hyper practical. And as you head into the new year, you're also thinking about church budget. Also, finally, in today's episode, for all of you who are bi-vocational pastors. First of all, you're awesome. Secondly, you've been interacting with me going, hey, can we have something for bi-vocational pastors? So we'll have more in 2016, but Joe and I finished today's interview, speaking specifically for those of you who are bi-vocational. Because we wanna help you find a new way to make money. One that is more sustainable and frees up more time for ministry. And this doesn't just go for bi-vocational pastors, but maybe you're full time, but like you just need some extra money or wondering how am I ever gonna put my kids through school. Joe's got some ideas for you, okay? So hang on till the end, it's gonna be a great episode. And this ends sort of a month of some really practical episodes that I hope have been helpful in getting you ready for an incredible 2016. We started the month off with John Acuff, and John is doing something in January of 2016 called The 30 Days of Hustle. And because he loves you, because you're a podcast listener, you've got a deal nobody else does. If you're listening to this, you are the only people left who can get in on a very special rate for John's 30 Days of Hustle for January of 2016. You need this link. You just go to acuff.me/carry and you can get the super early bird price that is not available to anyone else, just because you're a podcast listener. And when you go to that link, you'll actually, he'll welcome you as a podcast listener and give you that opportunity. So just go to acuff.me/carry, that's A-C-U-F-F.me/carry. And John is gonna hustle you through January so that you smash your goals to smithereens. And that's what I wanna do. In fact, I joined up and I paid the super early bird rate, just like you would, okay? So I'm gonna be doing that in January, I hope you will. Also, Geek Pastor was on board. His episodes are incredibly popular. In fact, he had one of the most downloaded episodes of 2015 and he was back a few weeks ago on episode 66. And he's got a special webinar that's coming up in January and you can go to his website, geekpastor.com/carry, C-A-R-E-Y for his exclusive podcast listener deals. You see, what I'm trying to do, even though this is a free resource, I'm trying to help you and we give you these deals once in a while, these breaks that nobody else gets. So the easiest way to make sure you don't miss a thing is to subscribe. And speaking of bonuses, I have some bonus Ask Carry podcast coming up. So the way you can make sure you don't miss those when they're randomly released on Thursdays is to subscribe. So hit the subscribe button on iTunes, Stitcher, Tune and Radio, then you'll never miss anything. It's automatically downloaded. And for all of you who have emailed and said, "Hey, what happened to like the early episodes of this podcast?" Well, they kinda got lost in, I don't know, a wormhole, a black hole, outer space claim them. We're not sure, but we fixed the problem. And so now, when you look at your phone today or whatever device you have, you should have all, like, I don't know what we at, 73 with the bonus episodes and intro episodes, 73 episodes going right back to episode one with Andy Stanley, episode two with Perry Noble, Carapal, Casey Graham, Tony Morgan, Craig Jutilla, all those people that were sort of lost for a little while are back, which is awesome. So anyway, hopefully that wormhole has been banished forever and you will always have all these episodes because what we're doing is we're trying to build a library, a library of help and resources for you. And to that end, Joe's gonna be awesome with that. So without further ado, my conversation with entrepreneur and financial specialist, Joe Sangle. Well, it is just so great to be with my good friend, Joe Sangle. Joe, how are ya? I can't believe it's been like all this time to get you on the podcast, but now it's happening. And I'm fired up. Thanks so much for this opportunity. Yeah, we met what, like five, is it five years ago now, four years ago? Casey Graham introduced us. Yeah, it's easily been five years ago in my favorite place in the world, Canada, in Ontario, it's the land of a lot, three people and a bunch of great people, I love it. Yeah, and you love to fish up here, don't ya? Absolutely, got to chase the wild musky. (laughing) So Joe has helped us an awful lot. Actually, your company, ISS, led us through a capital campaign that moved us into our building less than a year ago and have helped us so tremendously. We're gonna talk about the financial learning experience and I just gotta tell you, between you and Casey, you guys have helped us so much. Just find money for ministry. And so it's a joy to be able to talk to people. And we're gonna talk about a bunch of stuff today, Joe. We're gonna talk about a little bit about personal finance, although we just had a great episode with Chris Brown on that. But we're really gonna talk about how to raise money for ministry. And you've got some ideas for bi-vocational pastors that I wanna make sure we touch on because listen, bi-vocational pastors, I've heard from you and you tell me on a regular basis, hey, like, you have any tips for us. Joe's got some great ideas for you because I've never really, I'm entrepreneurial, but I've never operated bi-vocationally. So hang on for that carrot a little bit later. But Joe, tell us a little bit about what you do and how you got into it. 'Cause you're not originally a pastor or a parachurch leader, you're an engineer. - That's right, I went to Purdue University and studied mechanical engineering. And I was trying to climb the corporate ladder. And so that requires moving and transferring to move up the corporate ladder. And I moved to a little town known as Anderson, South Carolina. Wanted to get involved in the youth ministry 'cause I love youth ministry. And I went to a church that was about half of it was youth. They had a thriving youth ministry and they had a crazy lunatic youth pastor named Perry Noble. And Perry said, "I feel called to plant a church. "Will you guys go with us?" And my wife and I and 12 other people went along with Perry and we helped plant new spring church. - It's crazy. You're one of those people, aren't you? - We were one of those people and he said, "I knew that you tied, "then you're the only one that had a job." And so he was really pumped that we said death and the rest is history. And that's how I got into ministry is helping start a church. - Wow, and you were in Perry's wedding party and you were actually on staff. - Yeah, I was on staff. But actually it took him six years to get me on full time staff. I was an elder leading up to that. And I went on staff to help raise money and also to help people in this area of stewardship so that they could be able to give and give gladly. - And the reason you got into stewardship is you weren't always great with money, were you personally? - No, I was terrible. I like to say I was terrible, T-R-B-L, terrible. I spent every dollar that came in. I say it this way, I found quickly, I had the spiritual gift of making my money disappear. And I had to get delivered of it and I got delivered of it. And it was so transformational, Kerry, that when it happened, I reached what I call an I have had enough moment an I-H-H-E moment and I have had enough moment in December of 2002. And I started reading books and listening to people talk about money, listen to Dave Ramsey and David Chilton, that's a fellow Canadian there. - Yeah, he is, just down the road. - And I read Mary Hunt's book and then I read the greatest money book, The Bible. And I started applying it and my wife and I got debt free in 14 months, paid off our house at age 38. And really it was revolutionizing to the way we were able to live our life. And it really gave me this passion to say, man, this was easier than I thought it was. And I wanna help other people experience this freedom too. And that was the genesis of it. - Yeah, so you do like personal finance for people and you help them with that through I was broke. Now I'm not, we'll link all to that in the show notes, but you also help churches raise money for ministry because as you know, that can be a challenge as well. So I wanna start with churches, Joe. Churches of money problems and, you know, here we are getting ready to move into a brand new year, brand new budgeting cycle. And let me guess, I'm gonna try to be prophetic here. Giving will be low in the first quarter. - Yes. - Have you ever experienced that, Joe? - Absolutely. - As someone involved in the church, every pastor is like, oh, if we can just get through January, February and March, right? So I know that's the way it is, it connects us even though people are outrageously generous. You know, it's like give, give, give in December and then taps dry in January. So what are some of the most common money problems you see churches encounter? Because you work with hundreds of churches now and hundreds, probably thousands of church leaders. So what are you seeing in the church and what are some of the common problems you see today? - One of the common problems is that we don't think too far into the future financially. A lot of times we think far into the future provision, we beg God for vision, God provides the vision, but we don't ever take that time to put pencil to paper to say, how are we going to fund it? And you're right, you know, January is notoriously, it's proven statistically, it's the lowest giving month of the year for churches. December is the highest. Believe it or not, February is the second highest giving month for churches. - 'Cause people feel what, like guilty and then they just catch up. - Oh, it's January, they get all the bills from Christmas. - Right. - And so they're giving, their tithe goes to pay the credit cards and all this misbehaving. - Tithing to Visa, MasterCard, American Express, yeah. - Yeah, and so I think one of the biggest money problems that churches face is they don't have a plan financially. And so they know it's coming, they know it's coming, but they don't take time to plan for and save up cash to cover that known dip in January. And as a result, as many churches have a budget year of January one to December 31, and they don't, they start out in the hole. And as a result, they're chasing it for the whole year. They face summer, right as they get caught up, they go through a summer law, and then they're chasing again. So they feel like they're chasing a dip the whole year. And a great leader once told me, he says, "Joe, you never have to recover from a great start." And that's what I would encourage pastors to do is to have a cash flow plan month by month for the entire year, and that they intentionally build margins so that they can cover that known slump period for January. - Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, you met us when we were a startup church. We're barely eight years old now. And you probably met us a couple years into our journey. And I remember there was one moment, probably before we met you, where we had $5,000 left in the bank on an almost million dollar organization. And that's basically running like three cents margin on your personal finances. And one of the things we've done is we built up a buffer. And so we try to keep about $300,000 in the bank at any given moment exactly for that. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? - Absolutely. In fact, I would say pastors listening to you say, we like to keep 300,000 in margin. They believe that's fantasy land or pretend land for their church. - Right. - But you would probably agree that at one point in time, you believe that was fantasy land or pretend land for your church. - And we had to work at it. It didn't come overnight. It wasn't like one month we had $300,000 just show up, but we've built up a buffer over time over the last three or four years. And that's really helped us. - So I think it's very important for anybody listening to the podcast to hear you say, we intentionally made a decision to start building margin. And it took time. I think a lot of pastors, we want impact now. We like the zine factor. We hear about something that really happened at some church and this outrageous giving or this outrageous number of salvations. And we want that so bad. So we look for the zine factor, that silver bullet, but it is really true. When it comes to solving money problems, that systems do trump silver bullets. And it's so important that pastors focus on building margin that they view that margin as a bill or expense they owe to their church, to their congregation. Because what it does for the leader, I feel like it frees up the leader to really hear the call of God on their life. And they don't immediately push back and say, God, do you know we can't do that, we have no money. And it also prevents them from badgering their church to give for things that they should have saved money for anyhow. I see a lot of money problems at churches where the air conditioner goes out, it's broken, that furnace dies, the roof leaks, and the churches save no money for these capital expenses that they knew were gonna wear out in the first place. And so this saving of this obstacles and opportunities fund can really solve a lot of the problems that pastors are dealing with on a daily basis. It just makes those daily problems go away. - You reminded me, now we call it a buffer, but I remember it started as an obstacle and opportunity fund. And that is a great phrase, it's like your air conditioner goes, oh, it's gonna be $30,000, well, that doesn't bankrupt us or there's an opportunity. We have a hire that we need to make or a campus we need to open or like even we're launching an online campus within a couple of months, that's gonna come out of some of that surplus. And it's gonna be, I don't know, $40,000, $50,000, but then we will replenish that buffer along the way. So it can be done. So lack of buffer, here's another change that, I don't know whether you helped us with this, but it certainly happened in the last five years. I used to for years, Joe, our church would budget, like you take your annual budget and you divide by 12. So January's target might be $100,000 or whatever, but it's the same as December's target. And then you get $40,000 in January and you're freaked out because you're 60,000 behind budget. What we've done in the past, tell me what you think of this, is we've switched now to looking at the average for the last three years and then we take our increase for the year and add that to the average. So January is projected to run at a deficit, but our revenue targets are lower. And then when people tend to give more, around February, Easter, December, another months, we'll actually reflect historic giving patterns so we don't create false panic. In the elders of the deacon, we don't have a deacon board, but within the admin team, so that they're like, oh my gosh, we're barely out of the gate and we're hopelessly behind. Because is that a better approach or do you have a better idea than that? - It really is a recognition of reality. And that's something that can do very big harm to a church is not reflecting reality. Lots of pastors take their nonprofit status, literally, and they operate the church with no profits. So they spend it all and then they put together plans where it's easy to say, here's what our goal is for income this year, for giving income, divide it by 12, that's our monthly target. But that's not reality. And so you reflect reality. I think it's that balance of faith with wisdom. So what you just shared there is, we're looking at wisdom, that's the past three years of giving per month. And then that faith is saying, we think we'll see an increase as poor people are freed up financially as our church grows, our giving will increase. That will help pastors tremendously. And I would just add to it, I'm confident you do not manage the finances of your church. Is that a true statement, Kerry? - Yes, that's very true, I don't. - So a lot of pastors won't relinquish control of the finances of their church. And what I would encourage the pastor who's still managing the QuickBooks, they're still trying to-- - Oh my gosh. - If we did our church would be bankrupt if I ran QuickBooks. - I would bankrupt my organizations and I'm a financial teacher. So I would say have a person who's gifted in this area of finance to come alongside you. Even if you don't have, listen, some people will volunteer their services as you're growing a church and leverage their skill sets and then give them the authority to look you in the eye pastor and say, hey, we can't spend that money right now because four months from now we're gonna have a shortage and we're gonna need this money for then. That person can really help a pastor make great progress with their ministry. - That's a really good word. I've actually never managed the finances of our church even when there were no finances to manage. But I think you're right, the gifting that often comes with communication or vision or you know, you and I've talked about this before. I'm very entrepreneurial. That's not necessarily the same skills set it takes to run a great Excel spreadsheet or QuickBooks. - And you don't want it to be because I think an Excel spreadsheet should also be titled vision robber. It will drop you a vision as you look at the numbers. And so I think it's very helpful to the vision caster, the pastor, the leadership of the church to talk to the financial person and say, this is where I feel God's calling us to go. And now what do we do to make the money support that? What changes, what adjustments do we need to have to do that? Margin, margin, margin equals vision, vision. - It's so true, even personally, you know, we're in a house that's 12 years old. The roof went prematurely on it. It was just, apparently it was a bad year for shingles. I didn't know there was such a thing. And I mean, we had to come up with $10,000 this summer and fortunately we were able to do it. We got two kids in university, but you know, that kind of money just doesn't appear unless you save, unless you've got little buffer funds here or a little bit of extra there or you can make a quick cut there. I mean, but otherwise, you know, if you're waiting for that $10,000 check to appear in the mailbox, you might be waiting for a long, long time. I think that's true in church world as well. So let's drill down on budgeting. Okay, here's a tension that I've experienced for years. There's always more vision than money, Joe. You can relate to that. I mean, I know you as you grow your company and you know, there's just always more vision than money. And I think every church planter, every senior leader, every children's ministry leader, every student pastor, I mean, you might have $10,000 to work with, but you've got $100,000 worth of dreams, right? So, or maybe a million dollars worth of dreams. So is that just normal and how do you manage that tension? It is tension and it is normal. You think about vision, the word vision really has that connotation of far reaching into the future. Right. And so we're dealing with today's finances and we're thinking about the lot of the future, several years worth of future. And so it's always gonna cost more than what we have right now. And so I think that pastors, the first thing they can do is recognize that tension's gonna exist and it's always going to be there. And I think the second thing that I had to recognize as we were growing new spring and it was constantly outstripping our financial capacity, you know, we had all this crazy growth and all these people had all these problems and they need pastoral care and they wanted to be married. And then we were a young church and somebody died. They were like, somebody's gonna have to do a funeral. How in the world do we do this? And so what I found is vision, it does outstrip financial resources. But the thing that I think has helped us great, greatly stick with that is that we took informed, which means we got education on it. We went and sought wisdom from other leaders, other pastors, people who were five or 10 years ahead of us, people who've been there got the t-shirt. And so we took informed steps, but then we took prayerful, God led steps. And the key word here, they're all key, prayerful. We have to pray about it and God led, but steps. You know, I think a lot of churches, they see the church leader sees the whole vision and they wanna get right to there. But that, I think that's why a lot of pastors are crazy is 'cause God gives them the whole vision and they have to communicate that vision in bite-sized pizzas or else their entire church would run away. - Oh yeah. - And so that idea of steps of saying what are the bites that we can take off, that will stretch us, that will inspire us, but won't discourage us and make us say, well, it's a non-starter. That's so far out there, there's no way we can get there. And so I would just encourage the pastor to say, hey, consider steps. I know you wanna get there tomorrow, but it's gonna take steps. And so break 'em down into bite-sized pieces. And your vision, that's a really good word. Your vision should be big. You know, I have a friend, Darren Chesky, and Darren once said to me, if your vision doesn't scare you, it's probably not from God. And I think that's very true. But often, Joe, you know, we sit around an elders table or, you know, if you've got a finance team or whatever, you sit around and there's always a bean counter there. And they're like, okay, all we have is $50,000. That's all we can. So therefore, we can only have $50,000 worth of vision. And so you have pastors often or leaders or entrepreneurs who wanna put vision ahead of resources, but then you've got people who say, no, no, no, we'll realize the vision when we have the resources. And right now, this is all we've got. So that's all we spend. Can that, if the bean counter is one, can that kill your church long-term? - Absolutely. - Okay, explain that. - So two things. Number one, I love Darren Chesky, Heartland Community Church. In the-- - Oh yeah, you know him. Absolutely. They're great people there. The second thing is that there's a teacher named Les McEwen and he teaches something called the predictable success cycle. And he talks about how you have four types of people with your organization, a visionary, an operator. That's a doer, a processor, which is a rules enforcer. That's your bean counter and a synergist. And that's a kumbaya, can't we all get along type of person? Gotta have all four on your team to have predictable success. But he talks about if the processors get in charge and they will team up with the operators and run off the visionary. And at that moment, the vision caster is gone and it will be like the switch to a ceiling fan has been turned off. The ceiling fan will keep spinning, but it's gonna be slowing down. And at first, no one will even notice it. By the time they notice that the energy source is gone, you may not be able to attract a visionary back. And so what I would encourage every pastor here is to say you need a bean counter on your team. You need a well-informed, great bean counter, but you need one that's filled with some level of faith and let them balance that faith and wisdom. But remember, the term is being counter. They can't count beans if beans are not created or produced. And the pastor is the bean producer, the bean creator. They're the ones that cast the vision and then compel people to say would you get before God and with your family and say what role would he have you play in funding this shared vision that we have for reaching our community for Christ? And if you get that bean counter who is driving you crazy in the meeting and they're always doctor no and they're doing it in a way that is not uplifting. It's not in support of the vision. It's gonna be time to let them go. - Yeah, you have the wrong bean counter. There are people who count beans you're right, but who are behind the vision and want there to be more beans? - Yes. - And then you have other bean counters who are like we only have 13 beans and tomorrow we'll have 12. Get that person off your team. - And they're never gonna be more and they operate from a scarcity mentality. And I like to say this to pastors, we have a God owns cattle on a thousand hills. So he can sell a couple for you. Live out the vision, God will equals God's bill. He'll help you fund it. - Yeah, so that is attention. It's interesting as our church has grown people ask me what I do. And I'm like, well, I communicate. I lead the team and I try to make sure the culture is healthy at the top. And then one of the things I'm almost afraid to say, because you mentioned earlier, hey, Carrie, you probably don't run the finances of your church. That's absolutely true. But you gotta be careful how you say this. I see myself as chief fundraiser. Now, is that the role of a lead pastor? In other words, I'm there. And how do, because I know there are some lead pastors who are like, no, I not only never touch the Excel spreadsheet, I never deal with money, period, is that a mistake? - I think it is a mistake. I know it's a mistake. What I do know is this, ministry takes money. And as Dr. John Maxwell, who founded this organization that I've subsequently bought in Joy Stewardship Solutions, he says, Proverbs 2918, King James Version, says where there is no vision that people perish. Dr. Maxwell adds a statement that says where there's no money, the vision perishes. And that is the truth. And so I hear a lot of pastors and I understand it. I absolutely empathize with their statement that says, I hate talking about money. I hate it. I feel like a used car salesman. I think for leaders that have that conundrum, that challenge to deal with, they're not naturally in time to talk about money. That the greatest thing that they can do is to ask the question of themselves, what are my motives? A lot of times, if they're thinking, I gotta have this money, I gotta have this money, they forget the reason why they need the money. And so they end up only talking about the money or only about the project. And I would encourage those leaders to say, if you feel that weird feeling about money, back up and say, if I do receive this money that I'm asking for, what will be accomplished for the kingdom? And if you can connect those dots to saying, we're gonna be able to serve 100 extra kids in children's ministry each week, teaching them about Jesus. We're gonna see another 100 people come to faith in Christ this year. We're gonna baptize 50 more people. We're gonna put shoes on 121 kids at the elementary school where they're all on free and reduced lunch. When you can connect the dots to life change, then it becomes an invitation. And instead of a we got to give, it's gonna become a we get to. That's very powerful. - Yeah, see, that's good. You should just go back and play that part over and over again until you hear it. And I think that's the goal. You know, the other thing I think too, I do not hesitate to ask people to pray. I don't ask people hesitate to ask people to read their Bible. I think everybody should read their Bible every day. I never hesitate to invite people to invite their friends to attend our church. And I've come to feel in the last five or six years that when I ask people to give, when I ask people to surrender their finances to God, I am doing them a favor because I think when you finally trust God with your finances, you're finally trusting God. And does that, does that make sense? Like from a pastoral care standpoint? - That great hymn, I surrender some to I surrender all. And you know, I've heard it said tongue and cheek by a couple of great pastors who said, "I feel like when I baptized this person, they reached back really quickly and stuck their wallet above the water. So it didn't get baptized too." And I think that's true. It feels like that, but what ultimately happens is when you think about people not giving to the ministry, I think it comes to several different reasons why they don't give. And, but you can boil it down to two major categories. - I'm okay, yeah, why do people not give? Let's talk about that. - If they don't, if they surrender their life to Jesus Christ, so I'm gonna make that assumption. I want them to have the biggest debt paid for them. Let's say they surrender their life to Jesus Christ, then it's one of two reasons. It's either they've not been taught what God's word says about it, or they have been taught and they're choosing to be disobedient. And that choosing to be disobedient part, God changes hearts, we can't change hearts as leaders, but that choosing to be disobedient comes masked with several really good sounding excuses. Well, I'm broke, so I can't give. Well, that means you're not managing your finances than accordance with God's word. Another one is, well, when I become debt free, I will start giving. Well, unfortunately, God's word does not say, start giving when you become debt free. And we see these different excuses that people give, but ultimately they don't give because they're not doing what God's word says. And that is a heart issue, only God can change a heart. But the education side, that is us teaching and proclaiming God's word. So we talked about pastors who are a little uncomfortable talking about money. We know that one out of six verses of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John talk about money. We know that the Bible talks more about money than it does the top of love, hope, and prayer combined. And we know that of Jesus' parables, about half of them were about money or possession. So I would just tell the pastor, hey, when you think about talking about money, ask yourself this question. Do you feel uncomfortable about it because when you hear me say, talk about money, you actually substitute the word giving for money. You actually hear me say, talk about giving. - That's a great point. - I think a lot of pastors only talk about giving when it comes to the topic of money. And they would do well to talk about the other 90% that they should also talk about the power of debt, the power of money in relationships, the power of money and funding the vision God has given you for your life. And we look at the heart issue of Matthew 621, where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And yes, we can also talk about giving generously, where it says in Corinthians 9, 6, it says you should give cheerfully and in 1 Timothy 6, 17 through 19, it says that command those who are rich in this present world to be generous and willing to share. But do it in an uplifting manner. And you won't regret it. And people will come to you and thank you for talking about it. - Yeah, let's talk a little bit about helping people manage their personal finances, Joe, because that's a real passion of yours as well. And you have something called the financial learning experience, which we now run regularly at Kinexis. You've taught it. It's something we continue to run. And it's the distinction between asking for people for something from them versus doing something for them. Because most of the people in your church are in debt. And I agree with you that, you know, how do you reconcile being in debt and learning to tithe? How does that work through your mind? Because a lot of people would go, well, I got credit card debt, I got mortgage debt, I got card debt, I'm not driving a car, I'm driving a car payment, right? That sort of thing. How do you say to them, well, you may have debt, but you still need to honor God first. What's the reasoning behind that? I don't have some great textbook answer. All I can do is go from my personal experience. And for my own life, I was broke and I was giving inconsistently. And I had debt up, I mean, just up to my eyeballs and just barely scraped my, I literally had an average bank balance of $4.13 every month. And I was celebrating that it was positive. And I can't, I really, I ultimately ask myself, Dr. Phil's question. And Dr. Phil, he basically has this way of summing up your present tense situation and then ask a question. So it's like, okay, Joe, you have debt up to your eyeballs. You owe the student loan company, you have credit card, you have furniture debt, you bought a house, you finance your engagement ring, the wedding ring, the wedding, the honeymoon, both vehicles and you're broke and you're not giving. How's that work for you? And so I just took God it as word. And it says in Malachi 310 that God promised in that book, it said, test me in this and see if I'll not throw open floodgates. And so I said, well, I'm gonna test. And I started, I put together a budget for the first time in my life in July of 2003. And I realized I'd had my budget upside down. I was paying all my obligations. And then at the end saying, well, I'll give or save some if there's something left. There was never anything left. So I put God first, saving second, investing third. And I made everything else subordinate to that. And from that day forward, I have prospered. I've encountered tremendous financial challenges. I went to work on staff at our church and took a 50% pay cut. And it didn't matter because I had delivered myself up debt as able to still prosper. And that's what I want for leaders to be able to do for their own life. There's a lot of pastors, you're listening to this podcast and you're totally broke. And yeah, it's after Christmas. Yeah, it's after Christmas. And man, you know what? You inspire people through Christmas, through your message, but you knew what the finances were like at your house. And you kind of feel like your call to ministry has been a vow of poverty. But that doesn't have to be true. And what I know is that you can prosper, that you can survive and even thrive, a great connects us word, you can thrive on a pastor's salary. And what I found in my life was it was a commitment to put the Lord first, no matter what. And that got my attention and said, if I give that much, I have to become a better manager of the rest. And that attention getting moment of saying put God first, woo, that was a huge obligation. And it made me say, I've got to become great at the rest. And when I did it, it transformed my life, transformed my marriage, transformed my kids' lives. I've never gotten over it. That's so good. And so that's what, talk about the financial learning experience because we've run that so many times. And again, whether you use the FLE as we call it, or you devise your own system, or it could be something somebody else created, you're basically instructing people how to manage their household finance, which you would think everybody knows, and the reality is what we're shocked at is they don't. - They do not know. And so the financial learning experience was birth at New Spring Church. I went on staff in September of 2006 and tasked to raise money in our capital campaign to build some new facilities and to help our people win with money. And so Perry gave me the so-called trash Sunday, the one after the U.S. Thanksgiving, there in the fourth Thursday, so that I spoke on that weekend. - We're all 12 people showing up, right? - And we were in a marriage series. And he said, I want you to talk about marriage and money. And I said, hey, I'd love to offer a practical equipping workshop afterwards. And he's like, go do it. And he's like, what are we gonna call it? And I said, well, I don't wanna call it a class. I want it to be an experience. And we're gonna talk about money and it's gonna be learning. So we're gonna call it the financial learning experience. And that's how we named it. And we had 650 people sign up for that thing. And it was incredible. And what we did is we said, okay, on the weekend, we talked about the power of working together with your spouse, making sure that you have a common shared vision because if you have two visions, that is dive vision. And we wanna help you have a plan that honors God with all of your resources. So we're gonna teach you how to have a budget. And then I put an Excel spreadsheet tool on the screen and we did a budget together. And it was hilarious 'cause we're talking about, you know, a lot of people feel like they're alone. That they are the only person that's broken the world. And that is not true. The majority of people are broke. This is why you don't see the bestseller book on the bookshelf saying how to be broken, five easy steps because we figured that out on our own. And so the challenge is to teach them practical tools, systems that they can apply in their life to help them get liberated so they can focus on the more important things of life. That's what it's about. - That's great. And, you know, we looked at a number of different curriculum, just to say this, you know, obviously I'm a fan of what you do 'cause we keep doing it. But, you know, regardless of the program that you choose, our team looked at three or four different curriculum. And some of them were like 12 weeks, you know, 10 weeks, complicated, like here's what you do with your 401(k). And we looked at yours and it was so simple. And you know this story, Joe. We almost dismissed it because we said this is too, like basically the purpose of the FLE is like, okay, spend less money than you make. It's really simple. Now it's more complex than that. But it was the simplest of the curriculum. And we thought, are we just gonna insult everybody? And so we did a beta group and they were like, oh my goodness, this is fantastic. And we realized that, you know, in our view, probably one of the reasons so many people struggle with it is finances just seem so complicated. And you make it so simple. We've now run hundreds and hundreds of people through the FLE, particularly if they're teenagers or 20-somethings, they're like, this is, we're so grateful 'cause they're not yet up to their eyeballs in depth. And they're driving a used car and they bought less house than they were qualified for. And they have margin and they can do something with their life. And if they have a baby, somebody can stay home. And you know, so we just see success story after success story and surprise, surprise, the people who have financial margin end up giving to mission. - Wow, it's incredible. And I would reinforce that. Many churches listening to this, you're using Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University. That's awesome. Many churches are using crown financial stuff. That's awesome. Maybe it's will increase good sense stuff. Maybe it's our stuff. But I will tell you this. You should absolutely have this next step of this teaching moment. You mentioned Andy Stanley's statement. We want something for some people, not something from them. He also teaches us this area of stewardship, that a great influence on me at New Spring and in our ministry that says, when it comes to money, you got to do three things. You got to preach it. You got to teach it. Then you have to celebrate it. And so preaching it is on the weekends, using those weekend messages about three to four times a year to talk about money, not giving pastor money, all the years of money. And then have a equipping moment, whether it's a group study or it's a one time two hour equipping event on here, here's how you do a budget. Here's how you get. - Which is what the FLE is. It's just a two hour night. That's it. - And it's fun and you're funny. And we have a great time and people go home with practical tools that they can use, starting right away. - Yeah, we like to say it's right now relevant. It's right now relevant. You can listen to it today, apply it, and make a difference tomorrow. - Bingo. And then the third thing, I cut you off. - Yeah, and the third thing is you got to celebrate it, because you listen, we talk about money in a way of saying, "Will you give?" Well, when people do give and a major ministry milestone is accomplished, make sure you take the time to stop everything. And this is hard for visionary leaders to stop and celebrate in the moment. 'Cause you're only ahead of that moment once. Go, I mean, blow the roof off the place celebrating what God has done through the hearts of his people. - That's cool. So one of the questions sort of on church finance, but that's what the whole online trend, right? So we still pass an offering plates on and so forth. But one of the big focuses for us at Kinexis Church has been to grow digital giving. And it's gone in the last few years from about 35% of all the gifts that we receive to over 70% of all the gifts received. And our target is by the end of 2016, for 80% of all the money that comes in to come in online. What are you seeing in that area? And is that a trend that churches are behind on? Are they leading the way on that? And how do you get more of your giving to be digital? And then is that even a good idea and why is it a good idea? There's 12 questions. - There's four questions. - The answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. - Okay. - Here's what I know. There's not a church that I have worked with. And literally just so everybody understands the reach. Like we communicate with over 50,000 church leaders a year through our webinars, through our live events, through email, through phone calls. We have a team of people that is helping pastors all over the US, all over the wonderful country of Canada. And here's what we know. There's not a church that is growing in giving that has their online giving at less than 25%. - Wow. - And ideally it would be around 40% minimum right now. And the target is 70%. That's right where you guys are now. But there's a great resource that I track. It's actually my daily reader. Maybe it shouldn't be my daily one, but I get it. And it's called the Blackbod Index. The Blackbod Giving Index. - Okay, we'll link to that. Can we, is that public? We link to that in the show notes. Okay, we'll link to the show notes. - Blackbod Giving Index does a monthly update on giving to all forms of philanthropy, to the humanities, to the arts, to hospitals, to all types of nonprofits, including churches. And they segment, and then they also roll it up and show a rolled up number. Online giving has grown at a double digit rate every single month for the past five years. Regular giving hasn't grown. So therefore, it is a massive transition. It's a migration. It is the pioneers moving west. And pastors who are not connecting the dots on online giving are completely disregarding the way people manage money. I don't know what the age is, Carrie, but it's gotta be about 45 years and younger. I mean, when you preach to the dollars in their wallet, you're preaching about a collective of $23 and 21 cents in the collective room 'cause people do not carry cash. They do not carry their checkbook. The 90s called, they want their checkbook back and their fax machine. - It's so true. I was at an event where I wanted to give Joe. It was young leaders, they were doing a great job and I'm over 45, but I wanted to give to them and the plate went by and I don't carry cash anymore. I've got cards galore. - Yes. - I can give off my phone, but they had no way for me to give. And I just realized we totally missed the boat on that because I don't carry 20s. - Here's a practical way to make that person who's sitting in the pew 'cause I think that's why a lot of people feel weird about online giving is exactly what you described is you felt awkward, right? That plate passed you, you couldn't. They didn't meet the way you could give. So I saw a true North church in in Sewell, New Jersey, a great young church, a church plant about seven years ago, grown doing great things for the Lord. They have a card that looks like an iPhone and it says I gave online and there's one in every seat when they walk in so that when they pass the plate, the persons who gave online, they can actually physically put that in there as a way of saying this is how I've given through the week already. - It's a great idea. - So it's a great template and on the back of that card, it says here's how you can set up online giving. So that's a very practical way that church leaders can introduce in a very subtle but very, very clear way that we accept online giving forms. Another way to do it is to issue a giving challenge and you've heard of, all of us as pastors, we've heard of 90 day giving challenges or 30 day giving challenges. Well, if you're going to do a giving challenge and have people fill out a card, have a way for them to give their card information and say, I want to make my giving automatic. - Right. - And that allows you to communicate again, we accept online forms of giving and you can make it automatic. So that's another practical way. Churches that are really at entry level, you can start with something as entry level as PayPal. And then of course, all of the church giving systems that church management systems fellowship one and they like they have ways for you to have online giving portals through there and secure give as another. - Yeah. And we've done that. We do automate the important Sundays which we've learned from you and Casey Graham. And often we'll just say, hey, if you haven't automated your giving, you can do it. Here's a card with the instructions. And often on a Sunday, we might have an attendance of over a thousand people, but four or five people might do it on a Sunday. But you do that three or four times a year. And there tend to be your motivated givers, right? If you're gonna drop $5 in every six months, whether you need to or not, you're not gonna sign up for online giving. But people who are taking giving seriously will do it. And how do you get rid of the iceberg? You just won chip at a time. And so you move four or five families every few months into that. And by the end of the year, you've got 40 or 50 families or 25 new families who are giving online. And that can move you from 50% to 65% of your revenue. That's a big deal too, because especially, you know this living in Ontario, there are Sundays where you have an ice storm, you're gonna have a snowstorm, you're not gonna be able to have church, but ministry needs continue. And you all know, anybody who's listening to this knows that if you're accepting cash and check that tithe goes on vacation with the snowstorm. And so that is a huge bonus to having online recurring giving at 70% at your church, because whether you have an ice storm or a snowstorm, it's gonna help you cover all of your ministry needs and obligations. - All right, in the time we have left, I wanna talk about bivocational pastors, because one of the things I love about you do a lot of things, you help people with their personal finances. ISS helps churches raise money for capital campaigns and we used you to get into our building and it was tremendous. And we're so thankful for having a permanent hub now as a church. But you also have this book called Oxen, which has been very influential in the lives of our people. And I've read it and loved it. And we'll link to it in the show notes. But tell us what Oxen has to do and how that can speak to the bivocational pastor who's working at $11 an hour at some retail job, barely making ends meet. And then working at night and on weekends and preaching every Sunday, you've got a better way to earn money. - Yes. - Oxen was birthed from me in my moment of dreariness and financial life, reading the book of Proverbs. And I ran across this verse, Proverbs 14, 4, that says where there are no oxen, the manger is empty, but from the strength of an ox comes an abundant harvest. And I read that, I'm like, okay, an empty manger, that's where you feed animals, that's food trough. And that, I mean, it sounds better to say manger than food trough, it didn't work in the Christmas song, you know, away in a food trough, didn't work. But it says you can have abundance if you had oxen. And so as I ponder that, I really felt God speak to me and say, you know, if you think about the farmer who uses an ox, the ox does the work, the farmer does the guidance. And in a modern day farmer, they use the modern day ox called a tractor. And a farmer knows it's ridiculous not to have the use of an ox to help them. They just can't do it on their own yet. Even though most of us are not agricultural these days, it doesn't negate our need to have financial oxen helping us carry the load. In other words, things that are helping you produce income without your having to work on them exclusively, that you're trading time for money. That's it, right? And there's two ways to produce money. Work equals get paid, work don't work equals don't get paid money, that's a job. That's what you mentioned, the retail job. The other way is get paid whether or not you're working. That's a form of investments. And so I would encourage pastors, all pastors, those that are bi-vocational, those that are not bi-vocational to say what is it that God has given you? Maybe you have a message series that you really felt God really move. Like the Holy Spirit was crackling on it and you saw lots of life change. And I would encourage you to say, you know, right now where is that message series? It's sitting in the pile of the other 150, maybe 2,000 messages you've delivered in your life and it's not serving anybody at this moment. What if you could convert that into an e-book? What maybe you could convert it into a book and maybe you could create a group study around it and be able to use that to help generate revenue as it helps other churches? If you think about it, Pastor, you buy group studies, you buy different discipleship materials, that was written from a pastor in most cases and usually out of a message series that God birthed in their heart. And as a result, they took it and they systematized it and now they've been able to monetize it. And that helps them generate revenue without them really having to work any additional after they've produced that resource. So I would encourage your leader to say this, think about this statement. If you can systematize it, you can monetize it. So take your message series and turn it into a podcast. You could take that message series and turn it into a blog. You could take that message series, turn it into an e-book. You could take that message series and even turn it into an entire book with a group study around it. And I know that a lot of pastor, I say this, Carrie, I think every pastor has two to five books in their heart. - Wow. - They just don't know how to get there. And I would just encourage them. You know, you can go the self-publishing route. Mark Batterson, when I wrote my first book, I was saying, should I seek a publisher or self-publish? He said, Joe, if I hadn't self-published my first book, no one would have even known that I existed. And so I self-published it. - That's true. - Dave Ramsey said the same thing. So I self-published it and the rest is history. I'm so grateful that they told me, take what you have in your hands and convert it to a book. And now, you've seen this, Carrie, those messages, those things God has put in your heart. You're seeing them sent to Australia and South Africa and all over England and Europe. And you're like, man, I'm never gonna meet these people this side of heaven, but God is using this thing that he's put in my heart to help others. And in the meantime, it also helps you fund the next step of the vision God's given you. - Exactly, and I think that's the biggest reward is actually to hear the stories of people who read it and how God has used it. But yeah, this whole trading time for money thing because at the end of the day, we only have so many hours. And so, if you can get off that treadmill and produce a few things, that frees up money for your ministry, for your family, for you, it's just, it's a great way. So that's super helpful, Joe. Hey, you wanna tell us a little bit about how people can find out more, what is the best website, where can they find you? And I know there are gonna be some people who wanna track more closely with you next year, both personally and organizationally for their church, and maybe even try to figure out how to start a few businesses if you're bi-vocational. - Absolutely. You can find me on Twitter @JoeSangle and you can find our organizations injoystorship.com. And I was broke, now I'm not.com. Might be easier than just Google, I was broke, now I'm not. And-- - Then type it all. - Yeah, that's right. - Yeah, and it's Sangle, S-A-N-G-L. - Yeah, it looks like-- - Just so you know. - Just so you know. - That Austrian German background, they didn't quite know how to spell hooked on phonics wasn't out yet, when my ancestors chose last names. - Joe, this is a blast. I so appreciate your friendship. You've been such a help to our church. Everybody at Kinexus is so grateful. You've helped us take our mission further and I'm just so grateful for your friendship and for your leadership. Thank you, Joe. - Thank you so much, Kerry. It's an honor, blessings. - Well, I think Joe probably made some new friends today. Isn't he great? And when I say that I'm not sure we'd be in our new building today or where we are as a church without the help of Joe and also his and our mutual friend, Casey Graham, who is episode three. I'm not kidding. I mean, those guys have helped us really rethink our whole approach to stewardship. And it's helped us so much. I mean, we're in a brand new, almost $3 million building. We've got, we've almost doubled our budget in the last five years. And we are just able to do so much more and reach so many more people and expand our outreach. And I'm just so grateful. I mean, money's a tool to be used. And we're trying to use it well to make a dent in the kingdom here in Canada. So if they can help you, I know they have helped us. And I would really encourage you to look into what Joe has to say. And also even go back to episode three and listen to Casey or last episode with Chris Brown because if you figure out how to use money well, then you won't feel like a victim all the time. It's just incredible. So hopefully that was helpful to you. Hey, the best way to make sure you don't miss any of the good stuff we've got coming down the pipe, including some bonus Ask Carry podcast that are gonna appear on Thursdays, random Thursdays from time to time, is to subscribe. So just go into iTunes, tune in or, sorry, tune in radio or Stitcher where you can do that. And I just wanna say thank you. I hope that 2016 is an incredible year. We are kicking it off with a bang. So you don't wanna miss that. And I am just cheering for you and behind you 100%. So happy new year, everybody. We will catch you in 2016 and we'll do that real soon. In the meantime, have a great new year's and I really hope our time together has helped you leave like never before. - You've been listening to the Carry Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership. Change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (gentle music)