The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 063 – Stepping Into the Senior Leader's Chair - An Interview with Tim Guptill
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. (upbeat music) - Well, hey, everybody. And welcome to episode 63 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. And today you're gonna meet a guy, a friend I've had for a couple of years in my life. His name is Tim Guptol, and he's a fellow Canadian. But I think the situation he's facing is really interesting and kind of universal. I know there's a lot of leaders who listen to this podcast. And some of you are not in the senior leader's chair, but you would like to be one day. Now, how do you do that? And what do you do when you step into the senior leader's chair for the very first time? Well, that was Tim's situation, but to make it even more interesting, he stepped into the senior leader's chair, where the previous senior leader had been there for 44 years. Yeah, that's almost like, hey, nobody comes out of their alive scenario. And yet, Tim has. He's several years into his leadership. The church is strong. We have an honest conversation about what that was like. And so if you're ever wondered, what's it like to be the senior leader and what's it like to succeed someone, and particularly to succeed someone who maybe has been there a long, long, long, long time? And Tim is just gonna be able to share some gold with us. And this actually makes a really nice companion piece to episode 54 when I had Judd Wilhide on. And if you're in that situation where you're taking over from someone, and maybe it's not even like as the senior leader, you're just following a student ministry director who's legendary or a kid's ministry director or an executive pastor or somebody like that who's legendary or even in the corporate world, somebody who was awesome at their job, there are dynamics at play. And I think this one, two punch of Tim today and Judd Wilhide back in episode 54 can help you an awful lot. And of course, you can find all of this in the show notes. You can just go to kerrynewhough.com and my blog. If you go to kerrynewhough.com/episode63, you'll find today's podcast. And surprise, surprise, you'll see a pattern here. kerrynewhough.com/episode54. You'll find Judd's notes and all the information on his podcast as well as the interview itself. And of course, you can get it on iTunes or whatever your favorite podcast app is. And sometimes if you use overcast app or even I think iTunes in its latest update will give you the show notes if you scroll down a little bit right on your phone. And so I just love being able to provide some backlinks and information because hey, we're all learning together, right? So I just wanted to also say thank you so much to everybody who came out on Orange Tour. I think we saw 14 or 15,000 leaders this fall on the Orange Tour. I know that's incredible. It's not all at once. They were like over a dozen tour stops, but what an incredible time. And got a chance to speak to many, many leaders obviously. But what was the most fun part for me is I actually met hundreds of you who listened to the podcast. And thank you so much if that was one of you who came up and said, hey, thanks for the podcast or hey, how about that episode when I love that? And that is tremendous fuel, particularly in a busy season like this one. It's been crazy. Not only leading it connects us in teaching full time, but also making a foray into television for the first time. I dip my toe into the pool when they invited me to do this TV show this summer. And this week we'll be hosting 100 Huntley Street. And you can get that pretty much anywhere you are in the world. Just go to 100, that's numeral 100 Huntley, H-U-N-T-L-E-Y, dot com, 100huntley.com. And it's an hour long TV show that we do, it's been running daily for years and years in Canada. One of the longest running TV shows actually in North American broadcast history and has over a million viewers in Canada alone and many in the US as well and of course online. And it's sort of a Christian talk show. So a lot of my guests actually, like Andy Stanley has been a guest, John A. Cuff, Pete Wilson's been on there and so on. And we sit down and just have great conversations. So it's kind of a whole new thing for me. So they said, hey, why don't you come back and it's part of our strategy. It connects us to just to reach out to the broader Canadian church and to try to help however we can. So I will be doing that this week. And right after I record this, we'll be finishing packing up the suitcase and back to Toronto to do some more shooting. So anyway, that's happening and I may show up there from time to time. Anyway, so that's what's going on in my life. I hope you are having an incredible fall and we have lots of fun stuff planned on the podcast. Speaking of John A. Cuff, he'll be next week's guest and we have a special project that we have been concocting for you as well as an interview. So it's going to be a lot of fun. Anyway, hey, without much further ado, here is my conversation with Tim Guptall about stepping into the senior leaders chair in a very unique situation. Tim's so glad to have you on the podcast today and hey, podcast listeners, by the way, if you hear all this, you know, weeping and gnashing of teeth and banging, it's not Tim. I record these in my home office and we're getting a new roof on our house today. So that's what's happening. They're finishing up the roof. So if you hear all this banging, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all my fault. But Tim, welcome to the podcast. - Hey, Kerry, great to be here. Thanks for having me on and I just wanna thank you for all that you're doing to help church leaders everywhere with your blog and this podcast and new book out lasting impact that we're all excited about. And man, it's just a thrill and an honor to be with you today. We were just joking earlier about the noise if we hear any of that, that it could be church members beating on my door, demanding my resignation. - Oh yeah, we live in that fear, don't we? - We do, we do, it's not that bad yet, but it's great to be here, Kerry. - Hey, it's great to have you. We met a couple years ago, we Skyped, right? Was it a mutual friend who introduced us? I'm trying to remember. - It was a mutual friend and I was just pumped to hear about this guy, this Kerry guy and defined your blog and I reached out to you and just asked if you would be open to a Skype where we could connect and just share a ministry and things like that and you graciously accepted my response and we got to do it a couple of times and thank you again. - Oh yeah, well that was a lot of fun. I mean, hey, it's always mutual. And then we did a one day with a lot of churches in Eastern Canada, which is where you're from. You're from Moncton, New Brunswick. Leads the largest church, Tim Leads the largest church in Eastern Canada. And we did a one day with several hundred church leaders, partly from your denomination, but really from the much broader church as well. And that was an incredible time out there earlier this year. So that was fun just to talk leadership for a full day with a crew of people who really wanted to make a difference in the church in a place like Canada. But of course, as you know, Tim, all the principles are transferable, right? - They are. - Often, Canadians and people around the world, we have a few global listeners to this podcast. We'll try to take principles from the US and apply them. But I think what we realize and we've had guests from all over, but we're all struggling with the same stuff and we're just trying to figure it out, right? - We are. You know, every area and region has a unique culture and it's a challenge to figure out how to best reach that culture and Atlanta Canada has been known over the years as some pretty rough soil. Some pretty difficult soil for church growth and reaching people. And but hey, we're all leaders and learners. - Tim, tell us a little bit about your story. Like how did you get into ministry? And obviously we're talking about becoming the senior leader, which is a live issue for some listeners, a past issue for others. And then there's a lot of listeners who are like, yeah, one day, one day, one day. So tell us a little bit about your story, how you got into ministry and the thumbnail version of your church and position. - Yeah, you know, my story, Kerry, I think is a little different. I think maybe a bit of a bit of a freak that way 'cause I've heard you talk about other leaders who didn't really have a clear crisis moment of calling and they just wanted to serve and they got serving and God used them and God blessed them did great things. I'm a little different where I always knew I was called and never had to struggle with my calling. I didn't have to wrestle with it. I didn't need a real crisis moment when God, something the heavens opened or an angel dropped on me or I just always knew that I was called. - That's great. - Yeah, so that was a little different from me. So I always looked forward to ministry and prepared for ministry. And I was born in a small island, Kerry, out in the Atlantic called Graham and Ann. And my wife grew up on a dairy farm in Ontario. And so together we're surfing turf and for a great, great combo, we've served in a variety of roles as a lot of pastors do and initially started off wanting to work under some good leaders and gain experience and then to get out and serve ourselves in the leadership roles. So that's basically our story. - And then how did you get into ministry at Moncton Wesley and tell us about that, which is where you're at? - Yeah, I was posturing a small church in Diggby, Nova Scotia. I was a lead pastor there when I went there. It was running around 60 people or so. - Yeah. - And yeah, just a typical traditional white church, rural white church in Atlanta, Canada. So we served there for three years, but Kerry the first year there was just building and getting to know people and building relationships. And then in the next two years, the church really started to grow. And that's when Moncton Wesley reached out to us and said, hey, would you be interested in coming here and doing some outreach with us? And I really wanted the leadership and environment of a larger church. I really felt like I got to surround myself with people who are smarter than me, with people who will challenge me. I want to be thrust into those environments where I've really got to a steep learning curve. And I admired the lead pastor who was here. Laurel Buckingham, and he was a great mentor in my life. And I thought, wow, if I could work alongside him and under him and learn all that I can learn from him, I really wanted to be in that environment. And so it was in 2000 when we came to Moncton Wesley and served on staff here for five years at that time. So that's how we landed here. - Right, and then you got the call to transition to become the senior pastor. So set that up for us because it's not just, you know, one of many senior pastors over a decade or so. This was quite a unique situation that I'm sure some of our, you know, there may be some senior leaders listening who are like, oh man, this is what I'm going to have to do. I've been in this for decades and I've got to pass this off to somebody. And then others who are like going to be tapped on the shoulder and maybe think one day they will be called into the kind of setting you were. So fascinating story, tell us about that. - Yeah, I think it's a great conversation and I'm glad that we're having it. And I've heard you say that, you know, every pastor is going to be a transition pastor, you know, unless you plant the church, you're going to have to transition it. - Well, and even then you're probably going to die at some point, that would be my guess. So even if you plant a church, I'm not sure that's a recipe yet for immortality. So I think it's a universal issue. - I agree. So here at Atlanta, Canada, Dr. Buckingham, literally is a living legend, he's still living, was just in my office a few minutes ago. And he came to this church in the summer of '69. - Wow, hey, there'd be a song about that, I think. - And Brian Adams wrote a song about it. - All about him coming to Muntan, New Brunswick, wow. - And yeah, and I was born in the summer of '69. (laughing) - So think about that, okay. He started ministry the summer you were born. - Exactly. - In this church that you now took over for you. - Right, yeah. - Okay, that's fascinating. - So the man is a legend in the area. He, you know, worked at this church for 40 plus years and really grew it into a strong prevailing church in the area, real flagship church in this part of the world. And so we served with him alongside him from 2000 to 2005, we went off for a stint at our head office of the Wesleyan church in Indianapolis. Really wanted to get back into local church ministry. So we ended up in Frederickton, pastoring back in Atlanta, Canada for five years. And then the church, yeah, reached out to us about doing this imminent transition that, you know, of course everyone knows it's coming. Eventually it has to come. And Carrie, I remember, you know, years ago, my peers and I, you know, we used to joke about who would ever be crazy enough to try to follow, you know, Dr. Laurel Buckingham at that church. - Right, right, who would be dumb enough to take up that challenge? - Apparently, too. - Where would they find someone who will do that? Because we all know that, you know, a lot of these transitions don't go well. - Yep. - The first person in is often the sacrificial pastor who pays the ultimate price. And because Dr. Buckingham was so beloved in his church, in this area, and he wasn't the founding pastor, but because he had served so well for so long, he was like a founding pastor. And we just thought, you know, pity the fool, you know? Pity the fool, Carrie, whoever tries to come in there. And replace him. And so the conversation really started just between the two of us, where he approached me one day and said, "What do you think?" And that planted the seed. - So he saw you as the guy. He thought of all the people, I think Tim could do it. - Yeah, he tapped me, which is unique and doesn't always happen. But even in tapping me, there's no guarantee, you know, that I would be that person, right? There still was a lengthy process. There was a search committee. There was the board. There was the church process. So there was all these different layers of process that still had to unfold. - Sure. - But, you know, he tapped me initially. So that's part of how we landed here. - Wow. And how long ago did that happen? That was three years ago you did the transition? - Yeah, so let's back up. We did, we started the transition in, I mean, I landed here in July of 2012. - Right. - And I would say that the actual tapping me would have been almost two years before that. - Okay, so in terms of transition, and we've had William Vanderblumen on before to talk about that. And we'll link to that in the show notes. But in terms of transition, how did you guys do it? How did Laurel, I mean, after what? 40, how many years? - 44 years. - 44 years. I mean, he is the only leader most people ever knew at that church. I mean, all the people who would have remembered a predecessor would probably be gone or, you know, quite elderly by this point. So, like, how did just give us a thumbnail version of how you actually planned that transfer of leadership? Or how he did, I guess. - Yeah, I'd say there was his process and how he saw things unfolding. And then he was doing his research and homework. He was talking to everybody that he could talk to. We were all reading Bob Russell's book and just, you know, just everything that you can get a hold of on transitions. And then the board was doing the same and the search committee was doing the same. And then I was doing my own process and through that as well. And we landed at, like, Kerry, I don't know that any of these are perfect, but, you know, I can just share my story and what we landed at. And so, after the, after I made it through the, I think it was the final board meeting where they prayed over me and said, "You are the person." A couple of days after that, they gathered all the staff together and I was off in an office here in the church. Nobody knew I was here. And so they brought all the staff together and unpacked for about an hour and a half. They unpacked with these people. The entire process that had been going on, everyone knew there was a process, but the staff were not included in it. And then they said, "We have our candidate, we're at the end of the process. He's sitting over in such a such an office. We're gonna bring him here in just a minute." And then that's when the staff found out who it was, that it was me, someone that most of them used to work with bringing back a former peer, which one of the things, Carrie, that Dr. Buckingham and the board kind of heard from several sources early on in the process was if you can find an outside insider that that seems to work really well, that that really raises the percentage of success. - Of success, yeah. - Yeah, so someone who has been to the church before, knows the culture, knows the city, and has gone on to do other things, and has done reasonably well at those other things. If you can find an outside insider and bring them back, that seems to be a situation that tends to work well. - That's good. - So they brought me in and yeah, and introduced me again to the team, who most of them were former peers. And then from that point on, they put me up in front of virtually every group in the congregation, we spent days at this, and they would introduce me, and I would sit on a stool in front of this group, and people could ask me anything that they wanted to ask. And I would just sit there for an hour, an hour and a half, two hours. - Wow. - Yeah, and just people trying to get to know me, and asking questions about my, you know, philosophy of the ministry, my vision for this church and things like that. So yeah, that's some of the processes that have it unfolded. - Man, okay, oh, and by the way, you can probably hear the roofers back at work now. - I'm the beating on your door. - They're beating on your door, asking for your resignation. No, we got a new roof going on in the studio/office, really my house. So that's the banging here in the background. But, so let me ask you, were you, and maybe you can't say, but were you the only candidate, like were there two or three, or they had sort of narrowed it before you went through this process down to one. Who was you? - Yeah, so this big a good time to mention this, Carrie. If anyone hasn't already listened to your podcast with Judd Wilhite, they got to go, and I'm wearing that one out. They've got to go listen to it. It is solid gold, and you're bang on when you said, Judd, brother, you got to write the book on this. - Uh-huh, I did. - In his situation, yeah, in his situation, I think he said he was like the 43rd person on their list. - Oh, dude. (laughing) - So inspiring it. - So inspiring. What a way to start-- - I'm number 43. - Yeah, and with me, it was a little different where I was tapped. The lead pastor had all the credibility in the world, and so his, you know, his, the person that he chose, I mean, that carried some weight, didn't carry all the weight, because there still had to be a process. I think, you know, I've heard that there were two or three other people that they, you know, just reached out to and contacted. And, you know, from the board's perspective and the search committee, they want to be responsible back to the congregation and be able to say, in the end, we feel like we have found the best possible-- - Yeah, gotcha. - You know, the best possible candidates, so they want it to be a thorough process. And, but there weren't several people you know, going through the process at the same time, kind of jostling or-- - No, that's fair. - You know, there was no winner in the process, if that makes sense. - And just so listeners know, Judd's episode is episode 54, if you want to look that up, and William Vanderblumens is episode 19. So that's a little bit about succession, and this is just a fascinating story. Now, I want to focus not just on succession, but I want to talk about what it was like for you to all of a sudden become the senior leader in this context. 'Cause you kind of led as a senior leader before, but this is entirely different. So what were some of the biggest challenges in your first year as you took over, Tim? - Yeah, so many. It's not the biggest church, you know, in the world. It's really, it's only the, it's the largest evangelical church in Atlanta, Canada, but either so, you don't have an opportunity to really grow into the size of the church. It's three times as big as any church that I've ever worked on. - Yeah, so how big was the church in Fredericton that you came from? - Yeah, the church in Fredericton would have been bumping up around for 50, between 450 and 500, and both in Wesleyan now, like we run, we run about 1400, all in pregnant mothers, innocent bystanders, soaking ringing wet. You know, everybody we can find, we run about 14. So maybe around three times or a little more than that. - And that's a challenge, that's a lot of people. - Yeah, and so all the usual things people say, and they mean well, you know, and but when you're new and they say, wow, you know, you've got, you've got really big shoes to fill. And I would just, you know, just kind of have fun with that. Say, look, you know, I've got my own shoes to fill. - Yeah, that's good. - You know, if he leaves his shoes behind, you know, we'll, we'll bronze them and put them on a, a podium in the, a dream or something like that. But I really, you know, I've got my own shoes to fill. And, and I tell people, honestly, that I mean, I came into this with my eyes pretty wide open. And I thought it would be a near-death experience. And it would spend much harder than that. - Oh, wow. - You know, so it, you know, the, because the expectations were just, were just so high. And, but I think that's normal. I don't know how. - So let's talk about that. What do you mean expectations were so high? You were the anointed, the next, the, like did people think it would get better or that you would just carry on that legacy? Like what, when you say the expectations were so high, help us understand what does that mean? - Well, I think if anything makes it unique, it would be this region of the world and, and Dr. Buckingham being larger than life in this part of the world. - Right. - So it's, it's not like Atlanta where 1400 is a small church. And so I think, I think that heightened everything and people have been watching this for years thinking, wow, what will they ever do? How will Moncton ever, you know, it, it. - Droplet. - Because Moncton's not a huge metropolis either, right? - No, Moncton's, Moncton's probably 100 to 120,000 people. - Yeah. - So I mean, it's a good size city, but it's not like a million people or anything like that. - Yeah, exactly. And I think the expectations were high because he was such a well-loved leader. - Sure. - Now, if I, if you can choose, you know, I would say follow somebody well loved if you can, if you can choose. - That's a good plan as opposed to someone despised. Why, why do you say that? Because you would think if the old guy was so bad, you would become great. I mean, if you're processing that through a selfish filter. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. Great question. I think if you're following a train wreck, I think suspicion is heightened. I think people are nervous. I think they'll be quicker to, to, you know, if something goes wrong, they'll be like, here we go again. And I think if you follow someone that's beloved and it's done a great job, it's all kinds of opportunity they're carried to honor that person, to build on what they've done. You know, if you're not insecure and if you can, if you can, you know, get up on the other person's shoulders and, and, and point out all the great things that they've done. And we're going to build on top of this. And we're going to go forward from here. I just think, you know, you're walking, you don't have to go around with a mop and clean up mess all the time. Like you're, you're coming into a, a really healthy church with, you know, a lot of great leaders that have been built and, you know, there's so many positive things of following a, a great leader. - Okay, that's helpful. That's helpful. That's good to know. And, and I think you're right. Security is a key to that. Like you just, you have to be good enough inside to be able to say, hey, this guy was awesome and I'm going to do my best, right? But let's get back to the, this is good. I took you on a rabbit trail, but they're always interesting and fun to, fun to follow some of the biggest challenges. And you said the expectations were, were earth shattering. - Yeah, they really were. I mean, you're talking about a solid foundation that this, this former person had built, but you're taking us, you're taking that and you're putting it into a fragile environment. So a transition is fragile, no matter how solid the former pastor in the, in the work is. So it's just, everything is, is heightened. And so I remember Carrie walking over to the church the very first morning. Actually, I remember getting up that morning and my shoulders literally felt pinned to the bed and I took a slow walk over to this church. If it, if it hadn't been, you know, knowing clearly that, that God wanted me here. I mean, God literally woke me in the night and I heard an audible voice say, go to Moncton. It's okay, I'll be with you. And if I didn't have that, if I wasn't. - You did hear that, you had that experience? - I literally heard that, Carrie. And when my wife and I were in the, the, you know, the deepest point of decision on this, because we were at a great church and we had no desire to do this. - Yeah, your incentive to, to be the sacrificial lamb was low. - Yeah, none at all. And so when we were, when we knew we, okay, we've got to make a decision on this. I heard my name being called in the night. And so I sat up and made sure that I was clearly, clearly wide awake. And, and I heard a voice. The only way I can explain it is I knew it was audible to me, but probably not audible to anyone else. - Okay, wow. - And I simply heard it speak deeply and it was, go to Moncton, it's okay, I'll be with you. - And you needed to hang on to that. - And I needed that. I mean, so many days, you know, if the other church that I left, Carrie, there were days, if they had called me and said, would you come be the custodian? I mean, I would have been gone. I was like, yes. - $3,000 a year, I'm in. - I'm in. And, you know, but I had that clear, clear calling. And so yeah, walking over to the church that first morning was really, really, it was a long, slow, heavy, heavy walk. - So the size, the legacy, and the weight were really challenging. Keep going, this is great. - Well, initially our plan was that we would work together for two years. That's the transition model that we chose. And I've been sharing that with people lately, and they say, two years, like that seems like an eternity. Like three months would be a long time, but you guys thought you were gonna work together for two years. We thought we were gonna work tandem, side by side, for two years, and it ended up being one year. In fact, we worked together for six months, and then I came in the first Monday morning after Christmas of that first year in January, and Dr. Buckingham said, I'm done, we're gonna be done, and it's not gonna be two years, it's gonna be one year, and we'll work together from now until June, and then we'll make the transition, the full cut transition where he's out of the picture, and I'm on my own. - So two questions on that. One, were you both lead pastors for that year? And then secondly, how did that feel to you, and he told you? - We were co-lead pastors. - Okay. - And yeah, and he did an exceptional job. I mean, I hope everyone, you know, people listening to this can fully grasp. I mean, he had led this church for 44 years, and then I come in, and he instantly carried, deferred to me, and he gave me the staff meetings, and the board meetings, and preaching, and he just got behind me, and he did such an exceptional job of releasing and relinquishing, and setting me up to win, and I just can't say enough about that, but yeah, that first morning in January, we used to meet on 7 a.m. on Monday mornings, and when I came in that first morning, and he said, "Yeah, I'm done." It's the weight of it, again, it's not a, it's not a, you know, it's a big church, but it's not a, you know, mega, mega church, but still the weight of it is hard to explain, and, you know, very, very, very heavy, so that the pressure of that, the emotional drain, and what that did, especially in that first year, was I found that I had such a lack of emotional margin, and I, you know, that's not the, I didn't anticipate that, I didn't know that this would be part of the deal, and I think that really created a lot of challenges for our congregation and our staff, because in the first year, they want to get to know you, like who is this guy, and what's he all about, and what does he care about, and what are his dreams and his visions, and I was so overwhelmed by the weight of this, and the pressure of this, that I had very little emotional margin. I was battling anxiety for the first time in my life. - Oh, wow. - And so, what people wanted me to do was they wanted me to be ultra relational in that first year, and the reality was I wanted to hide. - Wow. - You know, so, you know, people, I would say this carry that we learned that in a transition, 'cause people want it to be over as soon as possible. So people, they want to microwave the transition, but you can't, it has to be crockpot. And I'd say, you know, if we could, if there's one thing there that we could have done over, it would have been helping people with their expectations of who this new leader is going to be, because he might not even be himself in the first year, because of the weight of all this transition, it might take a year or two for the real person, for us to really see who this guy is, and I know that that had some damage along the way. - And is that how you felt like, okay, this is not me as I was before in Fredericton or with the denomination or my first church, and this is probably not who I am now, is that how you would describe your first year? - Yeah, exactly, yeah, it would, you know, I can give you examples, you know, like before church, not wanting to be out in the atrium, you know, mingling with people and things like that, just because I didn't have the emotional margin, I'm just trying to get, you know, you're just trying to survive. - And you weren't somebody who struggled with emotional margin, particularly beforehand? - No, not at all. - So this just hit you by surprise to him. - Yeah, yeah, it really did. And this, I remember asking in the process, at one of our meetings, I asked the vice chairman of our board, where would we need to be two years into this transition for all of us to consider this enough of the success that we would, you know, continue and go forward. In other words, how do I keep from being fired two years into this? - Yeah. - And his reply, Kerry, I think was gold, I think was brilliant. He said, "Anything short of complete total disaster." And that, you know, in some ways that took a lot of pressure off because I thought, you know, we're being realistic about this. This is gonna be messy. There will be fallout. There's no way to transition a 44 year, you know, great leader without there being some fallout. And so that was another thing that I held onto. I held onto my call in the night and I held onto those words of the vice chairman saying, look, anything short of total disaster, you're our guy, we'll be with you. We're gonna support you. We're gonna get through this together and no matter how bad it gets, we'll emerge. And we have so far. - Now, let me just guess. I mean, as much as people knew that, you know, he can't lead forever, you probably had some people who were disappointed with the transition as well. And did you have people who left? Like, did you have people who said, yeah, you're not him and I'm out? - Yeah, we did. And you know what, as leaders, even when you expect that to happen, but when it happens, when you see the people who are leaving, you know, some of them I've known for many, many years and this church has been a huge part of their lives and it hurts. It's not easy to see, you know, people just say, oh, you know, I'm leaving, I'm going to another church. So that takes its toll as well. You know, I remember Judd saying in his podcast about, you know, the first year it felt like I was, you know, carrying a bucket with a giant hole in it. And you do, you leak, you know, you see the people who are leaving and it hurts. One of the, you know, carry all, every denomination has, you know, we're all quirky, but one of the Wesleyan quirks is that when a new lead pastor, no, back that, when a lead pastor resigns, the staff are supposed to resign along with the pastor. Yeah. - Did not know that. That's a Wesleyan quirk. - Could have created a big thing at a big church. - Yes, when the large church is they try to, you know, they try to navigate that a little differently. And so when I came in, the board asked me if I would consider keeping all of the staff and, you know, hopefully we could work through that and try to have as little followed as possible. - Well, in three years, I mean, most of the staff have transitioned. - Oh, wow. - That's the reality of it. So you have staff people, you know, and often not over bad reasons, just simply because things are different. Things have changed and the former leader's gone and the new leader's just a little different or a lot different and they get opportunities and move on. But, you know, when staff leave, there's always, you know, some folks that were connected to that person that leave as well. And so yeah, we stepped back quite a bit. - And did you see a nat attendance decrease, Tim? - We did, yeah. It dropped significantly. We had one key staff person go to another church just five minutes away from here, which is never, that's never ideal. And that took its toll on us for sure. And, you know, interestingly enough, the giving stayed, you know, quite well. And, you know, I think people stepped up and I think people saw, okay, we've got to support this. We've got to get behind this. And so, numerically, we took our hits for sure. And financially, we were able to do okay, all things considered. - Wow. And then there must have been some bright spots as well. So what were some good things? I mean, here you are, three and a bit years on the other side. You're still standing. It is far from a complete disaster. And in fact, I mean, when I visited, I, you know, it felt like a real healthy church to me. That's what it felt like. - But it is, you know, I don't know where I got this, Carrie. I don't remember reading this. You know what? I probably heard this on one of your podcasts. - There you go, that's where it happened. - But somewhere in there in the first year, I felt like, you know, this church, even though it's in a fragile transition, I think we need to take some really bold moves. I think we need to take some great risk. And in the first year that I was there, I felt God really speaking to me about Easter that year that we needed to share the message of Easter with 4,000 people. - Wow. - Which would be, yeah, I mean, that's a huge number for our congregation, especially for Easter. We've done some big things around Christmas before, but we weren't really, we never really got a huge surge on Easter. - Yeah, it's so funny. In Canada, Christmas is much bigger culturally than Easter is. It's just true. And you see that in American churches, it's like, you know, Christmas is small, Easter is huge. Not always, but in some cultures and with us, it's the opposite. - Easter for a lot of churches in Canada. I mean, hardly get a little bit, 5%, 10%. We see a little more than that. Well, a lot more than that, but like Easter's off the cultural radar screen here in a post-Christian culture. - Well, it was one of those times where I felt like I need to, I need to speak this almost prophetically. And I don't do a lot of that. That's not my deal. It's not normal, you know, for me. And I said, you know, I really feel like God is calling us to this and I wouldn't do that lightly ever. - No, no. No, and at first Easter, it was just over 5,000 people that we had out, that Easter weekend. - Wow. - We followed that up the same year. This church, Moncton Wesleyan, had always tried or set as a goal to, they always wanted to baptize a hundred people in a year and they never hit it. They were always, you know, hit the 90s some years, but never broke a hundred. And I felt God saying, you need to baptize a hundred people in one day. - Oh, wow. - And I had to be sure, you know, I had to be sure about that one, I thought, oh, we're gonna look, we're gonna look like fools, like God, are you sure? And so I did the same thing. And I shared it with our staff. And I said, I really believe God's calling us to this. And it was Father's Day in that first year of transition. And it's almost a year into the first year. And we baptized a hundred and one people. - In one day. - Yeah, in one day it was really cool. - We had, we had three swimming pools out in our parking lot. We had a tractor trailer with a band up there and all the lights. We had, you know, hundreds of seats out in the parking lot and stadium seating and all of that. And it was just a, just a phenomenal, phenomenal, God-awesome day and we baptized a hundred and one people. So I think, I think those things were helpful in a lot of ways and gave people, you know, faith to believe that our greatest days were not behind us, that we could trust God for great things in the future. Even though our leader is retiring and transitioning that God's not done with this church. - Yeah. - And it gave us some really great rallying points that were helpful. How long did it take or to phrase it another way, was it difficult for the team? I'm sure for the whole church, but for the team to start seeing you as the senior leader. Because you had been a peer beforehand, you know, Dr. Buckingham had been there for 44 years. That wasn't immediate. I would assume it wasn't day one, particularly when you're co-leading for a year. How long did it take and why or why not was it difficult? - Well, you know, looking back, we had everything. We had some turnover within a couple of weeks. So it was immediate where some people just went looking for other options. And I think, again, you know, not that there's, I don't know what the perfect process is, but this team was left out of the process. And I wonder now, you know, would it have been different if they were-- - Well, you mean the staff, right? - The staff, yeah. Would it have been different if they were included? So I was just kind of sprung on them. And they didn't really have time to react to that. And then once I got started, again, you know, in the first few months where they needed me the most to help them decide, look, can I support this guy? Do I like this guy? Can I be loyal to this person? In the first few months when they needed, when they needed to hear all the right things and see all the right things, I was probably in my darkest moment of the transition. So, you know, I think a learning point for all of us would be, give it more time. Just ask people, can you hang in there for a year? Can you give us 16 months or 18 months until the weight of this, until, you know, Tim gets used to the weight of this and he can start to-- - That's good word. - You know, really start to invest back into others. And, you know, everybody's different, but for me, that was my experience. And I think there is, you know, an extra challenge. We're all human, right, Gary? And for a former peer to come back as your boss, that's challenging. - Yeah, 'cause, I mean, without pointing fingers, and I mean, I don't know the whole old team or even your whole new team, but I'm sure some people were asking, "Well, why didn't they pick me?" Right? - Yeah. - People would ask that. - Sure, sure, absolutely. And there were capable people on the team. - So, how did you do that? Like, how did you establish your leadership? 'Cause you're not, I mean, I think I know you well enough to know you're not a super-authoritarian guy, like my way or the highway, right? And you're certainly not Dr. Buckingham in his style. You know, you're very different. You're an alternative. So, how did you establish, you know, your leadership with humility, but also with, you know, some firmness? How has that happened? 'Cause I would say at this point in three years, most people would say, "Yeah, Tim's definitely the leader "and he's here indefinitely." - Mm, yeah. I think one of the key things that was helpful there was, I have an amazing executive pastor who really forced me into a process of clarifying the vision, clarifying the core values and really finding the key words and the key phrases that we could hang everything on and just clear everything up for people. And I think that was huge. I mean, he really, really wouldn't, almost wouldn't let me, you know, lift my head out of that process and it just kept me on that. Like, we have to get, we have to have clarity. And I think that was really helpful. And I think, you know, it did, you know, some off-site staff retreats and, you know, just hearing people out and having the time carried to just, you know, be real with about who we are and where this church has been and where we all want to see it go. And I think people, it gives people an opportunity to say, yeah, you know what, I can get on that bus or I'd better get off that bus. And I'm not an authoritarian, but I think I can, I can still lead, I can be a strong leader. And I think clarity early on was critical for all of us. - Well, that's a really good point. And I think the key to having like a really clear emission vision strategy and even culture is all of a sudden then it's no longer about you or Dr. Buckingham, your predecessor, it's about something outside of you. And it's not about personal loyalty, it's about organizational mission. And I think that's really smart. - Yeah, and he, they were very, very loyal to him. I mean, we're not, we're talking about good people and many of them had served at this church for a long time. And so it's understandable when someone new comes in that it's gonna take time for them to, you know, detach from the former leader and, and, you know, get behind the new, even though there wasn't a, it wasn't a huge shift in direction for us. You know, a lot of the messages and the, the vision was, was very similar. It just had new language and we just were finding new ways of expressing a very similar vision. But yeah, understandably so. And I think in any transition, succession, like this carry, I think, I think it's understandable that people, some people are just not gonna make it through that transition. - Yeah, well, and, and, and some really helpful principles for us there, Tim, that's, that's great, you know, to focus on the vision and to ask people to hang in there for 18 months to two years. I think that, that is brilliant. That's a really good idea. Hey, nobody just go anywhere for a while, okay? Let's just hang in and give this a chance. - Yeah, I mean, if they're, if they're, if they're not being disloyal and if they're not sabotaging where you're trying to go and they're good people and you'd like to keep them ultimately, I think you've got to give it time. And some didn't, some didn't. - Sure, how, and you mentioned vision already. So how did you continue the original vision of the church and yet change it at the same time? Which I'm pretty sure you would have had to do, right? - Yeah, well, I think one of the reasons why the, we all felt confident that this transition, you know, has a good shot at succeeding was because myself and the former pastor, we already had alignment in ministry, ministry philosophy. So we knew that going in. And I think that's one of the reasons why he tapped me was we're very similar, we're not similar in our style in our approach, but we're similar in our vision. We're both at reach driven, and so it wasn't a major shift for the church. And so I think all we had to do was really find new language that would capture this new season, this next season of ministry, you know. And so we were able to do that and we wrote it literally on the wall and we put it in weekly video announcements and we just, we just, we stayed on that vision hard and we've been on it hard. And I think that was really, really key to this. And if the vision doesn't cause people to want to drop everything and pursue it with you, with all they have, and it's a boring vision. And we, you know, and we had people who loved what this church had been doing for so many years. And so we just needed to find new terms around that. And so that's, you know, we've been going hard on the invite, it's leveraging our relationships. We ripped a phrase from New Spring, that one of Perry Noble's phrases found people find people and that just got instant traction with our congregation. They're just like, "Ooh, that's good." You know, found people find people, just resonated with them. And, you know, we just kept sharing things like we've got to put seats on seats because we want more souls in heaven and an empty seat is a serious matter. And that all emerged into the vision statement of people inviting people to experience and follow Jesus. - That's good. - Yeah. - So it was really a similar direction, but a fresh language and a fresh expression and obviously some changes as well. And then, let me ask you this, 'cause man, time's flying on this, but it's so good and it's so rich for leaders who are facing this or in the middle of it, whether you're the senior leader, the next leader, or whether you're the guy going, you know, you're in student ministry or next gen right now or worship pastor on one day, I'm gonna be that guy. You know, her girl. So how did you relate to your predecessor, both publicly and privately, walk us through that? - Well, he and I already had a preexisting relationship, which I think is, you know, that, if not everyone is going to have that, but like Judd, when he went to central, yeah, I'm not sure that he had that, but anyhow. - Well, and the thing that was different for Judd Wilhite, again, episode 54 is, you know, Gene Apple moved to Chicago. And so when he took over for Gene, he left, Dr. Buckingham did not. - No, he was here. And so I think our preexisting relationship, and people see that, people can pick up on whether or not you like each other. And, right, so it is so key. And we didn't have to manufacture that. We already had a great relationship. We had 100% trust. If I saw him off in a corner with a board member, I would only think he's telling them how great I am. He's encouraging them. Or like, I would never, ever think that he was doing something to sabotage. And why would he? He's worked so hard to build this church. Why would he do anything to harm it? So we have 100% trust. No insecurity or very, very little. We're different. He's a high-energy type A choleric. And I'm not. So I would help people and say, look, you have to learn how to read me because my passion is just the same as his. It just looks different. And it's gonna sound a little different. And I'm not him, but we're still, we're very passionate about the same things. And so we, he and I decided early on in the process that we would have a very open door. We didn't share the same office. But we, you know, just many times a day, Kerry, we would share everything that we possibly could. Just openly, lots of communication. And I would say that the language that you choose, especially in that first year is critical. And you can choose your words. You can craft it. You can be prepared when you get out in front of people what you're gonna say. And it doesn't have to be nauseating. It doesn't have to be, you know, so over the top that nobody believes it. But you can honor that former person in just a, you know, very real, honest ways. And then build off of what that person has done if you're not insecure about it. - That's good, that's helpful. And so it was a sort of a private alignment and a public alignment that really helped you get through things. And I think that's good. That's really good. - Yeah, I think the open committing, both people committing to brutal 100% honest communication. I think that's key. And then there's just no room for, you know, any negativity to enter into the relationship. - If you've got that privately, that's true. That's true. So Tim, here's a question for you. How long did it take for you to feel like this was kind of your church? And that's a bad phrase 'cause it's Jesus' church. I know that, I understand that. But like, you know, until you really felt like, okay, now I'm the senior leader, entrusted with this. - Yeah, well, we worked together for one solid year and then he took six months when he did not show his face at all. And that was part of the transition plan. So he was just gone completely, totally out of the picture. We hope you go to church somewhere but it's not gonna be this one for six months. And, you know, giving me an opportunity to just clearly try to establish my direction and to help people see me as a leader. And I think the, you know, I think that's important. But really it wasn't until after the two year mark and the two and a half year mark. And now we're just, we're just finished up the three year mark. And I think that, you know, now we can start to see a real, real change in people. You know, they're calling me their pastor and I, you know, I hear more of that, you know, and people saying, look, we're praying for you and we love you and we support you. And you just start to hear more and more of that stuff. And so what that tells you is that, you know, what the culture is changing and the tension is leaving the room. It's leaving the atrium. It's leaving the auditor and the tension. People aren't coming in a little apprehensive. They're coming in, expectant. And they're really excited about where we're going and things like that. So it's taken at least three years and I think it'll take more. I don't think we're through it all yet. I think when, you know, when we're able to look back at four and five years, we'll be able to see when it really, really happened. But I think some of the, you know, getting your own team, some of these staff changes have been huge for us. We've got some great people that have come in and, you know, building your own team has been helped than a huge help as well. - That's great. Tim, what are some things if, Annie, you wish you could have back from that first year or two or you're like, "Ugh, love a due over on that." - Well, you know, we already mentioned it, but I really do feel bad about some of the relationships. And I wish that I'd had more relational margin in the first year. You know, when you're the new guy and people, "Hey, let's do coffee, let's do lunch. We want to have you over to our house." And I just didn't have that in me at all in the, I was just trying to survive. I'm just trying to get through the day. And, you know, I'd like to do that over again. I'd like to, you know, be more proactive and getting to know people and helping people to know, you know, us. You know, another thing, I wouldn't have taken everything so personally. And, you know, you did a recent post on this that was super, super awesome. - I did, yeah, we'll link to that in the show notes. Stop taking ministry so personally or whatever. - Yeah. And I'm reading your post and I'm like, oh, it sounded like you and I had had that conversation. I don't know if we did or not. But I was internalizing everything I was wearing it. - That was about me. - Yeah, it was eating me. And so all the time when I should be emerging as a better leader, because this church and this transition required a better leader, it was actually doing the opposite. It was making me a worse leader. - Hmm. - And so, you know, I think, you know, that's something that I learned and would like to do over again. So yeah, I mean, those are the two that, yeah, come to mind. - Yeah, that's fair. And yeah, I think so many of us take leadership personally when really we should just take it seriously. And there's a difference between the two. - So what advice would you have for anyone, you know, who's listening, who's just stepping into the senior leaders chair or maybe is hoping they will be at some time soon? - Yeah. Well, let's say what I've learned is if you're, if you're stepping up to, you know, it's a higher role than you've ever been in or it's a larger church or larger position of leadership that you've ever been in. Whatever height of leadership you hope to achieve make an equal dive spiritually. Your leadership height won't exceed your spiritual depth. And when I came to this church, God pushed me, pressed me, invited me into a deep dive spiritually. And I realized that, you know, it's as great of a leader as I wanted to be or as high as the level I wanted to lead this church, I had to go that, at least that fire deep, deep with my spiritual roots. And so that was key for us. I would say be a learner, read everything you can read, talk to everybody you can talk to, get some great people around. Like me a few years ago, reaching out to you and saying, you know, would you be open to, you know, to a Skype or. - I'm so glad you do it. - Can we do a coffee, you know, those types of things? But be a learner. You know, when I get in the car, I'm taking podcasts with me and I'm reading all the time and just, I think leaders have to be learners. You know, it's the old Maxwell axiom, everything rises and falls on leadership. But you have to be a great leader and you have to be responsible, but you can't take everything personal either, or you'll be no good to anyone. And you just got to realize, hey, some things are out of my control, some things are spiritual matters that only God can control. And everything rises and falls on leadership. Sure, that's true, but there's still a lot of leadership uncertainty and things that only God can control. - Tim, I know people are going to want to connect with you. So what's an easy way to get in touch with you online? - Yeah, best way is probably TimGuptel.com. That's Tim, G-U-P-T-I-L-L.com or to find me on Twitter @TimGuptel and I'd love to chat with anyone who's going through a transition or maybe going into one or any churches that are dealing with that. I'd love to connect with people. - We'll link to all of that in the show notes, including your church website as well at Monkton Wesley. And so Tim, this has been so helpful to a lot of us, including me. And I just want to say thank you so much, man. Really appreciate your leadership and your friendship. - Hey, thanks again, Kerry. And keep on doing what you're doing because a lot of leaders around the world are getting better because of what you're doing. And so we appreciate you. Thanks, Kerry so much. - Thank you, Tim. Well, I think you can probably see why Tim and I have become friends. I mean, what a great leader and what a humble heart and what a challenging leadership task that he navigated so, so, so well. And it's just great to see a large thriving church, another one in Eastern Canada. I mean, that really, really warms my heart. And, you know, if you're a regular listener to the podcast, you know, one of the truths about Canada is the vast majority of people don't attend church on a Sunday. And that's why I think I have such kindred spirits with people in New England, like Josh Gagnon, last episode's guest and people in Pacific Northwest. And even people in the Bible Belt who are realizing, hey, you know what? Like this next generation coming up is not like the last one. And so we're all trying to plow hard a ground and Tim's doing a fantastic job out in Moncton. If you want to see more or learn more about Tim, just go to the show notes. It's just KerryNewHoff.com/episode63. Next week, we are back with none other than John Acuff and John and I sat down backstage at the Orange Tour. We zipped off a quick interview, not as long as most episodes, but man, it was rich. And we talk about how to be more funny as a communicator. And I know I shouldn't probably insert a joke here, but I'll try to think of one by next week. Anyway, and John's got something special for you. So it's going to be awesome. And the best way to make sure you don't miss anything is to subscribe. And you can do that by just clicking the big old subscribe button on iTunes, Stitcher, or TuneIn Radio. And of course, if you would be so kind, please leave a rating or review. And similarly, for all of you who have read Lasting Impact, thank you so much for all the positive feedback. That's my new book. It's been out for not quite two months now. And if you've read it and enjoyed it, I would love for you to leave a rating on Amazon as well. So thank you so much. Hey, we're back with a lot of fun stuff in December. And can you believe it's December? We'll be back next week. I really do hope our time together has helped you lead, like never before. You've been listening to the "Carry Newhoff Leadership Podcast." Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead, like never before. (upbeat music) (gentle music)