The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 060 – Sue Miller on the Key to Attracting and Engaging Amazing Volunteers
Welcome to the Carrie Newhof Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhof. Well, hey, everybody, and welcome to episode 60 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhof, and I hope our time together helps you lead like never before. And I kind of think it will, because we are going to talk to one of my favorite people. Her name is Sue Miller. So many of you know her, and if you know her, you love her. And she is one of the most positive people I think I've ever met, like I've known Sue for years now. And she's just relentlessly positive and so great that way. And I think that's one of the reasons she was so amazing and still is when she works with volunteers. And Sue is going to open up a vault of wisdom that has accumulated over a few decades now in leading some of the largest volunteers in some of the most complex organizations in the country. She served for years as the director of children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois, and led literally hundreds, probably actually thousands of volunteers in their children's ministry. And she sort of spills the secret sauce, something else she did in her brand new book that she co-authored with Adam Duckworth, called Not Normal. And it is all about the seven quirks of incredible volunteers. So you can get the link to her book and also the link to everything we talk about in the show notes today. And you can just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode60. Or you can jump right on to Amazon or to orange books to order her book. It's just great. Sue is going to share with you, you know, because it's really, it's difficult to lead volunteers. I mean, I talk to so many small church leaders and, you know, the story I hear over and over again is, you know, we only have 40 kids, but we can't even get 10 people to volunteer. Well, how on earth do you get a thousand people to volunteer? Well, Sue's kind of cracked that code and she shares some really helpful insights that have helped me. So that's today on the podcast. And hey, great news for you. I want to let you know that next week I'm going to tell you how to get ahold of the audio version book, a minute book, lasting impact, seven powerful conversations that can help your church grow. So if you're an audio book type person, my guess is a lot of podcast listeners are because this is like an audio format, then it's going to be widely available. So there's details on that coming up next week. And of course, you never miss an episode when you subscribe. So I want to thank all of you who have subscribed to the podcast, all of you who tell your friends about the podcast on social media. Often in the show notes, we actually, and we do it again today, we've got like quotes from Sue that you can share on social media. And once again, thank you to everybody who leaves reviews on iTunes. We are well over, I don't know, 280 reviews now and just thank you so much because when you do that, it just helps get the word out and if you're like me, you always, always, always check out user reviews before you subscribe to something or buy something. And so when you leave a review on iTunes for the podcast or on Amazon for a book, it's just super helpful. So thanks for being good people, good citizens when you do that and helping out. I appreciate that. And now without further ado, let's jump into my conversation with the awesome Sue Miller about how to attract, how to attract, keep and motivate. Awesome volunteers. Well, it's just great to have my amazing friend Sue Miller on the podcast. Welcome Sue. Welcome to you, Carrie. How are things in Canada? Things are great and fantastic and I'll just say it publicly, but I honestly, I say this all the time about you. I think Sue is the most encouraging person I know on the planet. You are just genuinely encouraging. They're always so encouraging to me. And if you know Sue Miller, I mean, we've hung out an awful lot, you know, Sue will run into somebody she met from California like five years ago and she runs across the parking lot to greet them with open arms and treat them like they're her best friends. So well, they are my best friends. I'm so pleased that we get to travel together and orange to her and meet these leaders. Absolutely. Yeah. So Sue, it's just a thrill to, first of all, reacquaint you with all the people who love you and have followed you for years, but maybe even get to introduce you to a couple of new leaders today. So welcome. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. So you have been a huge encourager to people who do next generation ministry and kids men in particular. And I think just for the record that kids ministry is every church leaders ministry simply because if you're a pastor and you're trying to reach families and you might think, well, I don't do that stuff. You're actually doing that stuff. You're either helping the next generation or you're hurting them, by the way you lead. Would you say that's true? That's exactly right. You've got to choose one side or the other. So it's an it's an all skate. So how did you get passionate about kids men and next generation ministry and like that journey started for you a few years ago now at low Creek, maybe even before that, tell us the thumbnail version of sort of your story and your passion around that. Well, I have been passionate about kids for as long as I can remember. And I started out as a classroom teacher and I had every grade there is and loved it. I mean, Carrie, I loved it. The best time of the day was when the kids would open the door and come in my room. And that took me into the world of children's ministry at Willow Creek community church. When I was challenged by Bill Heibels to take the very best of what I knew in education and bringing inside the local church for the sake of those kids who are far from God. Now, this wasn't like Willow Creek when it was a 7,000 seat auditorium. You go, you knew Bill before anybody knew Bill, right? Tell us how far back does this go for you, Sue? This goes way too far. I must have been like, you know, a child. Well, you're three. I know. I know. But you have childhood memories in this. So all the way back to the 70s. It goes back to son. Does it go back to the youth group? Yeah. It does. What was that called? Sun City youth group? Yep. We used to wear yellow and white when we were in a singing group, down at Orchestra Hall in Chicago. I can't even believe it. I think it was all polyester too, you know, not even the cotton organic cotton far from it. So you were part of Willow before there was a Willow and you knew Bill, how old was Bill at the time? Was he like? He's about the same age as I am. Okay. So he must have been three, too. He was also three. I'll protect him. Yes. He'll protect him. So he was a young man. He was a very young man. There you go. With a big vision. With a big vision. Absolutely. And so you got involved in kidsmen there, which eventually became Promised Land. Yep. And a curriculum that so many people know. And then almost a decade ago, you sort of moved to help out Reggie Joyner with All Things Orange. Yep. Reggie Joyner captured my imagination with the whole idea of families working together, integrated strategy between church and family at home. Carrie, I had never heard anything like it and it just absolutely blew my mind. I said, I have to be a part of this. I want to see how this unfolds because I knew it would radically change children's ministry. And I'm guessing at that time, I thought it was going to change middle school and high school all the way up if we could get this right. And it kind of did. And it did. And it did. It did. We'll link, by the way, to Reggie's contact information and also everything about Orange, which you and I just love to be a part of as well. So we'll do that in the show notes to this episode. But so that also got you prepared and this is what we're going to focus on today to really work with volunteers. I don't know. But at our church, you know, Shana Lester, our awesome director of kids, and she's great. She leads more volunteers at our church than any other staff member. I guess theoretically I lead them, but you know what that really means. I don't. I'm just a boss. She cares for them, develops them and everything else. She does, she has over 200 volunteers in our kids ministry. And I'm sure you've managed thousands. I did manage thousands and it was a challenge. I'd have to say that it was overwhelming and it scared me. It scared me a lot when I first got involved in children's ministry because it was like the unknown. I mean, Carrie, I literally was the leader who would pick up the phone and try to talk to somebody about serving in a room with kids. And I really felt like they were doing me a favor, you know, doing me a favor by signing up. And so I started out reticent. I started out as a rookie and I had to learn. I had to learn that in order to be able to ever accomplish the vision in my head for what this children's ministry was going to look like, I had to learn how to work and develop and grow volunteers and recruiting was at the very start of it. So that's where I was. Yeah, you know, and I think that's the journey for a lot of leaders. To get into kids men because you're passionate about kids or into student ministry because you love students or into ministry because you love ministry. And the next thing you know, you're managing dozens, hundreds or thousands of volunteers and you're like, well, I didn't sign up for this and nobody told me this and it's a big struggle for a lot of people. So Sue, tell me, why do you think so many leaders struggle to get and retain great volunteers? Well, you know, I think I made this mistake early on. So this is kind of like coming from my perspective. I think as leaders, we recruit to a need, not a vision. So we want to pull you into something that we feel passionate about, but we lean into the need. I need people to come on board and we sound a little bit like a sink and ship. And if you're a quality person, you are extremely busy in our world today. They're not just sitting around waiting for the next great, you know, thing to come along. Their lives are very full and they're looking for a vision, a picture of a future that captures their imagination or a mission that sounds so compelling, so adventurous, such a God thing that they would want to sign up with their one and only lives and their little bit of free time to be a part of that adventure. And when we don't do that, I think people feel like it's not a big deal, like anybody could do that job. So just get yourself somebody else. Right, so I like what you say that, you know, this is a neat thing and that's often how we feel. It's like, wow, I have five slots open and I need people to fill them now. And you're really not leading from strength when you lead that way? Yeah. And I think when you do it that way, you sound so desperate and it also sounds a little bit devaluing because it's not a significant something that you're recruiting me to because if it were significant, you'd be telling me that, you're, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're recruiting me to a, a task, not a vision. And I'm a very busy person and I want something that's going to ring my bell. Something important, something big to invest in. And I think when people hear that their ears go up, they're kind of looking for that sense of fulfillment and purpose that you're talking about and they get excited and their heart starts to beat a little faster and they give you a shot. Wow. So in other words, raising the bar, are you saying raising the bar makes it easier for people to volunteer? Yes. I do think raising the bar makes it easier. I think sometimes I, I can't tell you like I had a group of men come up to me one Sunday. I think this was probably three years into my leadership at Willow and they, they kind of cornered me in a hallway and they said, Sue, can we talk to you for a second? I said, Oh, oh, what have I done? And they were like, no, no, no, it's good. And one of them said, you're not requiring enough from us. You're not challenging us enough. And I said, what now has my hearing totally gone? I've never had anyone ask for more. But I think sometimes when we're leaders, we dumb the vision down. We cut it so, so, so small that big thinkers, big entrepreneurs, big people who have been a capacity for large thoughts and large dreams, they best, who these guys were, that we take it out of reach from them because they don't get excited about that. It's just a small something that anybody can do and we're not excited. They asked me like they said, Sue, what's the hardest thing on your plate right now for ministry? And I said, getting men to serve in the two-year-old room. And they're like men, they looked at each other, eye to eye and they're like, are we out at men? And I was like, this can't be happening, I'm going to wake up any minute. And I'm sure enough, they showed up the next weekend and they were in the twos and they like surrounded the place in the hall. They were talking to every, every dad who walked by and every college aged guys, you know, people that would normally intimidate me and they did an awesome job. And they recruited men for our two-year-old room, took them six months and they had it fully staffed and then they came to me. Sue, what's the hardest thing on your plate right now? Those kind of people need a big challenge. And I just had made the vision a little too small for their comfort. I think it's the right size vision, you know, Carrie. Some people can only have a little smidge. Some people need the medium size and some people are looking for the grande one. I don't think you're alone in that, Sue. Why do you think so many leaders struggle to cast a big vision and a high challenge? Why is that so hard? Maybe it's because there's so many competing programs that you get lost in the noise in the church. I'm consulting with a church here in town right now and I had a volunteer focus group a couple of nights ago and one of the volunteers just said, Sue, I've been asked by eight ministries to serve in this church. He said, how do I know which ones to say yes to? And it was like, there's too many programs, there's too many things to do. He had a hard time self selecting because we didn't as a church really prioritize that. Right. So we talked about that. That was a big thing for him. I think there's just a lot to be learned from listening to volunteers because when we don't do things right for them, then they have something to say about it and they will help us, of course, correct if we will listen and take the time to learn from them. No, you said a couple of things that I think a lot of leaders are already resonating with. You said, at the very beginning, you said, I feel a little bit guilty sometimes asking people to serve and asking people to step up. Second thing you said is that the challenge isn't high enough and this third insight is really good as well. There is. I mean, let's say we lead a very simple church, we're a North Point strategic partner. So we probably have like, honestly, five or six areas, eight areas you can serve in. That's it. Guest services, production. We have family ministry like children's and students ministry. We have midweek and music and groups and that's about it, starting point. Like there's just a few things, but even so, that's a really simple model of ministry for a church our size. We have over a thousand attenders and over 2,000 people who call our church home, but that's a pretty streamlined ministry, but even so, how do I not stand up and say, okay, we have eight areas where you could serve like isn't there an inherent competition or is like, how do you how do you overcome that? You know, I think it's a great question and I think we all struggle with how to answer it. What I love so much about us recruiting to these different ministries as we recruit through the eyes of a volunteer, telling them like what they would receive or like what kinds of significant things they would be a part of if they were in our ministry. So we help them self select their passion. You know, there's there's a very few places that somebody who's a great communicator could serve. Well, let's tell them where that would be so that we don't end up with the wrong person in the wrong slot, leaving them feeling, oh, how did I get here? It's like putting someone in babies who really loves nine year old kids. You know, you go, okay, we don't take our time with the volunteer on the front end to find out what is best, what is in their best interest because as leaders, we're so busy plugging people in. Sometimes the season of life might not be right for them. And it's so hard for us as leaders to say, it sounds to me like you have a boatload going on. And I think this season you should probably sit this one out and we'll come back next time because we care more about them than we do our position. Hmm. That's important. There's a divorce or something and you just go, Oh, no, listen, you can do this on top of it. It's going to be great instead of looking at them in the eyes and going, maybe this time you should sit this one out and maybe it's the overall mission and vision of what you're trying to accomplish as a church that attracts high capacity people too. It's not just, Hey, we need you to care for two year olds every Sunday for a season. It's like, man, you're making a difference in a child's life or, you know, you're leading people into a growing relationship with Jesus. That's really motivating. Yes. And so often we just missed that the other half while we're recruiting. We know that there's an opening, but we didn't hear like who and what they would accomplish there so that they can self select and go, that sounds like something I would like. Um, it's, it's new to many of them and we could help them, I think as leaders in that area. Those are good points. So why do you think it is because we don't just have church leaders like staff listening, we get a lot of volunteers listening marketplace leaders who, you know, are serving in their church or maybe have served at their church. I run into a lot of volunteers who are discouraged and defeated. Why do you think so many volunteers end up discouraged and defeated Sue? I think my, my take on that one is that we never connected them to each other. They served in, in a room maybe or they served on a ministry task, but the whole time they were there, no one really shared their lives. They didn't feel like they were with friends, people that knew them because no one took time for community. We were so busy to jump into what we needed to get done that we didn't spend like 15 minutes at the beginning saying, let's go around this circle and find out how are we spend, been doing what's been happening in your life this week. Let's go around and say one thing that was great about this week and then let's go back around and say one area where you could really pray for me that just breaks down the walls around that circle and over time those people will turn, turn into friends and friends over time, turn into a team and a team over time, I think, turns into a family and carry in, in my opinion, it's the secret sauce of serving. It's like I come to serve these kids, but one of the joyful things, one of the ways that I get so much back is I get to do it with a group of friends that I just love. And I think that's a part of our volunteering that is so amazing for volunteers to experience. That's a great point. So I can see a lot of staff members maybe in a small church saying, okay, I can do that for my 20 volunteers or 30 volunteers. How do you do that for thousands of volunteers? If you know you're in your old position where you've got all those people, how do you actually make sure that even volunteers don't get lost in the system? Well, you know, volunteers circle up in every single room in the building for 15 minutes before the kids come in, before we open the door to get babies in or toddlers or whatever. So there's, the small circles are all built throughout every ministry. So you can be as small or as large as you need to be, but these people get connected to one another. They all can't be connected to you as the leader because after a while there, it's too much. Yeah. But they can all be connected in every room with somebody starts out and says, let's all, let's just spend a few moments caring about each other so that if you came in with a broken heart or a need or a prayer request, you feel like someone valued you before you started to value the kids you're serving, which I think speaks volumes to our volunteers. So it's like a culture thing. Yes. Totally. It's just something that you kind of create throughout the organization throughout your ministry area. That's a good point. So I've got a new book out and it's got one whole chapter on volunteers, but you and Adam Duckworth, here's to new releases. Back in the spring about six months ago, you and Adam Duckworth released an entire book on volunteers. We did. Yeah. We're still a little tired from it actually. It's a big work. Isn't it? I mean, you've written a lot of books. It is a big word. Oh, yeah. But it's called not normal and you say great volunteers are not normal and they exhibit quirks. So tell us about that and I really, I really loved your idea that volunteers are owners. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes. There's a difference between volunteers who own and volunteers that rent, not normal volunteers are owners. That means that if there's, if the toys are all just shovels and all over the place when you walk into the room, owners won't just walk right past it and say somebody else ought to get that. They will start to pick it up. They'll straighten it up because they really care about how our ministry looks and feels because they're part of the mission and the ownership behind it. Some of that comes over time. I don't think they start out as owners. I think that's developed over time where they start out as renters. Let me kick the tires on this thing. Let me see how it works. See if I like it. See if it plays right. See if I have a passion. And over time as they feel like they get more than they give, they start to say, God is using me. Then I can see my part in this mission. They own a little bit more. They own a little bit more. And we start to commit to develop them, Kerry, where we're not just saying, you know what? I only care about you in this one role. But instead, we check back with them throughout the time that we serve with them saying, how can you be an even better storyteller next year than you are right now? I want to make an investment in you because as a person, you're amazing. There's that development part that empowers them that I think speaks volumes to them and turns renters over time into owners of the mission and accomplishing the mission together. Hmm. I love that metaphor. I mean, I've always been a lead pastor. That's what I do. And we opened up a new building a few months ago and like literally on opening Monday, like opening Sunday, I should say, I'm in the parking lot at 7 a.m. picking up the little bit of litter that blew in overnight with the wind. And I have been with so many owners of businesses, so many leaders who like, that's what they do. They may have the big office, but they're down there going, that toilet isn't scrubbed. Where's the brush? That's really true. And so it's possible like you've actually seen teams where dozens, hundreds, thousands of people own that value. So can you drill down on that a little bit? Because you say, okay, it's about development and developing them. But how do you get people to like literally, and I think the test in a lot of business literature is do you stoop down and pick up every bit of garbage? Because that's what owners do, whereas renters will walk by it. How do you get that level of detail in a whole team? First you model it, then your key influencers, they model it. And then you keep empowering, because I have some leaders who I've mentored over the years who are control maniacs. They want it to be a certain way, but it can only be their way. That won't work because we're trying to get high school guys to own the vision for twos and threes and fives and eights, and we want college age kids. So part of it is that you're trying to transfer that to them, and every time they do that, you affirm, you praise, you affirm, and you connect that to why it makes a difference. Because over time, they forget, Carrie, they just forget. And it ties back to that vision, where as you keep inspiring them with the vision, you keep putting it out in front of them, whether you text it, tweet it, blog about it, put it out of giant cooking and surprise them in their room when they get there that day. I like that idea. What we're doing is significant. And every time they do something, it creates that impression that this is a great place for you as a parent to drop off your kid. We just pump that in, pump that in, pump that into our volunteers every which way we could to let them feel empowered in that they're part of it, and we own this together. And I guess the alternative, you're saying really, I think in a nutshell, the why is the key. It's like, why are we doing what we're doing? We're investing in the next generation. This is important. It matters. It lasts forever. I guess the alternative, Sue, would be what? Like, hey, get in that room. Look after those kids, the bell will go in 65 minutes and you're free, right? Exactly. And so many churches, that's how it feels to be in those rooms. They're rotating on a calendar because nobody owned it, they're just renting that space for an hour. They're doing their duty and they're renting it. So you just look at that and say, okay, what's the next step for a renter? What do they need to see? What do they need? Who do they need to shadow? How can I develop them that one next step so they feel a part of it and they get tuned in and they see God use them? And then they're like, wow, that's what I'm looking for. That's one of the things that's totally counterintuitive too. And I know I've heard you teach on this, Reggie teaches on it, I've taught on it. But like this idea of volunteer serving every week and you brought up the rotate, the famous rotational model, which is basically, okay, every 18 weeks, whether you feel like it or not, you can come in and serve in this room and, you know, there'll be 17 other people who do their duty and then your time will come up again. You know, it's not 18, but every four weeks, every three weeks or whatever, you're not a fan of that. I think you think there should be greater commitment. How do you get leaders to commit? Like I hear this all the time from church leaders, it's like, well, we have a rotational model because people won't commit to more than once a month or once every two months or whatever. How do you get people to commit to like, I'm going to serve every week I can between September and June or whatever, whatever the magic months are? Yes. I want them to serve. I guess if I was starting from the beginning, I'd say, give me a month, give me four weeks and then let's talk and I would start them out shadowing like some of my best people in different areas, different age groups, letting them see a variety of things and then I would let them serve and say, how about if you give me 90 days and let's just see how God uses you in 90 days and then let's talk about if this is it for you or not. Now remember, you're also giving them community, they're meeting new friends, they're getting excited about each other. Now is God going to use them in 90 days? I'm praying my guts out, Carrie, that yes, it's true because our God is huge and he cares about these little people but there's going to be some little person, some elementary school kid that's going to look up with big eyes and say, you're the reason I'm here. Yeah. You're the only one I've told this to. My mom and dad are getting a divorce. There's a parent who's going to look you across the counter. It's going to happen. It's going to happen and at that moment they're going to feel God use them and there is nothing like that sense of purpose and fulfillment and contentment, deepen your soul that happens when you feel God use you to do something significant in the life of someone else. It's absolutely incredible. You and I are just trying to give them a great environment for that to happen and then we just pray like crazy that God will do his part which he has been very faithful on his part. It's so good at that. Why do you think it's important for people, particularly in kids men, and you're talking about leading small groups, like why do you think it's important to have weekly leadership, like the same people week after week after week? Because if they don't serve every week, they don't get to know the kids. If they don't really know the kids, they're not going to be a trusted confidant. They're not going to see behavior or spiritual changes. They're not going to be there for the parents that one week that the parent was vulnerable and needed some encouragement that you could have given or you could have been a listener. You're going to miss it and when you just skate in and you just sit for an hour, you just lower your chances of having that God moment and when they do that it feels like a task and then they just want to rotate in and rotate out. No skin in the game, no skin whatsoever. Yeah, you forget that volunteers who are small group leaders might actually really start caring about their kids and want to be there on a regular basis. Oh, yeah. For sure. I mean, some of the letters that we've gotten over the years from parents who had like a four-year-old daughter, this little girl would come home and play Promised Land at home and she looked right. She put this in her letter to Ms. Janch and said, "Our daughter does everything just like you." Wow. And you just go, "I'm sorry, but you'd have to have a heart, a stone carry, a heart, a stone to not be moved by that." It just solidified for that volunteer, Ms. Jan, who was amazing that she was making a difference. Now, the book also lists out six other quirky volunteer characteristics, some quirks. Yes. What are some of your favorites? Like, what if you had to say like, "Oh, this is my favorite thing about volunteers. What would your personal one be?" There's so many things. I think one of the most fun ones for me is watching the small is big come to reality. It's like sometimes as leaders, you and I can easily make the life change be so spectacular or the job be so spectacular that the average volunteer just doesn't ever get to experience that. It's like being healed from cancer overnight when you're a volunteer, so if they don't experience that, it doesn't feel like it's very revolutionary, very big, very compelling. I think one of the joyful parts for me in leadership is helping people see that small is big. It's one card at the right time. It's one encouraging word. It's one great huddle time, a community time with other adult volunteers where God just uses you to speak words to someone else who really needs that. It's those moments that are absolutely life changing, I think. See, what it sounds like to me is you're not just like staffing the church or staffing a ministry. It sounds like you're actually creating community. Is that an important value to you? Huge. Because I think it's the reason that volunteers stay. They don't like it when the community is full of conflict, so then that's why you resolve conflict in order for us to keep loving each other. We don't have to agree on everything, but we should at least be able to love each other while we're serving. And sometimes when churches have leaders that switch over every two years and another one comes in and another one and a bigger vision and a bigger vision and a bigger vision and a different vision, it's like you come back to that small, small things, small ways that you care for someone else that comes back to be so life changing. You say, "God really used me." I saw the light bulb go on in that kid's head today. I did. I saw him get it because God just brought that moment and I was just there witnessing it. It was the get-effector of a parent, a kid, someone around me, and it's not like anyone got healed of leprosy or something, but it was huge when you're on the receiving end of somebody who does those kinds of things in a loving way, it's huge. And we just forget about that sometimes in our culture. We'd rather text something than bring a meal or it's like you and your fantastic big green egg taking all that food over to the guys in your construction site. That small is big, that's a huge impact, a great way for the church to be a bridge to those who don't really think it's relevant anymore. I just love that. They loved it. And I hope people are picking up on this, this is why I love talking to Sue. I can imagine there's a lot of leaders listening right now who are quitting their ministries to come work for you. It's like, "Where's that Sue Miller?" "I'm going to go find her, I'm going to serve on her team." But a lot of the times we think it's like, "I just need more skills or whatever." It's the culture you create and that culture is either attractive or a repellent to people, one of the two. And I think your care for people, and again, you can't do that for like 2,000 people personally, but if you care for your top 20 leaders well and they care for their top 20 leaders well and so on, it percolates down. Now, okay, shifting gears a little bit, Sue. We can. All right, we're going to shift some gears. So a common approach in a lot of churches I talk to, and this really plagues, I think once you start hiring in a church and you get around maybe 200, 300 people. A lot of the approach that I see or a lot of leaders take the approach of hiring people at 10 to 15 hours a week, it's like, "Okay, well, we need someone to look after this." And so there's a 10-hour week job and that and really what they're hired to do are tasks, right? I'm just hiring you to do a task. If you want an ideal volunteer and staff culture, what kind of hiring should you do? Like you're big on equipping rather than hiring equippers rather than people to do. Can you talk about that? Because I know so many churches get stuck at that, 150 to 500 barrier, and now they've got 20 staff, but you go to some churches that have 1,000 people and they have 10 staff and they're like, "Whoa, how did that happen?" Yes, in the early days of Promise Land, when I've been there probably two years, I had a conversation with a man who was mentoring me. He's a businessman and I just wanted to learn everything I could from him about leading a business, leading a bunch of people, a very big thing. And he said, "Similler, here's what I want you to always be able to tell me, who's next and what's next, all across the ministry, who's next and what's next?" And then when you figure that out, then you'll hire someone who isn't a quipper to do that because it's all built on relationships. It's the people who say, "I don't want to sit in the office and just make phone calls and send lists to people. I want to take these people to Starbucks. I want to meet these guys afterwards because I'm building relationships, circles and circles and circles of relationships and looking for the, "Who's the next leader that I'm trying to pour into so that that leader can pick up the mantle and go ahead and lead the next 10 circles?" It's like it's trying to make sure that you've got somebody who can oversee and lead a lot of people, a wide variety of people, Bill Hibles would always say, "Make sure they can appeal to a wide variety, Susie." And I'd be like, "That's really true." But I think sometimes we want to hire doers and we want to have the checklist and we want to make sure that it's all strategically and it balances the budget just right and leadership's a lot more messy than that. Sometimes I'm standing in the middle of the night at a hospital just because I love and care for someone, not because it's like the most strategic thing on my list. I'm doing it because love is the most strategic thing on my list and I want to make sure I keep caring for people and equipers do that. They take the vision and they push it down as close to the front lines as they possibly can to go, "How can I get this closer to this group and to this group so that you're closer to the baby people in the room and then the next volunteers and the next volunteers. Wow, this is why you and Gina McLean are friends because when she was on episode 46, I think she said exactly the same thing, that the biggest thing she brings to the team as a next-gen kidsman person is the ability to determine what's next and then figure out what to do, which is really interesting. I do think that kids ministry can be one of the most complicated jobs so you're the most positive person I know. I'm going to ask you this question, it might be a little bit out of left field for a positive person who always sees the cup half full, but let's get really granular on that because I think you're making great points. Who would you not hire? If I'm like, "Hey, Sue, I want to work for you," what would you not want me to be doing during the week and what would you want me to be doing during the week? I think one of the things that I would be looking for is somebody who really loves people. I wouldn't hire an introvert. I would want someone who really loves to be with people. I'd like somebody who has in their skill set the ability to develop people, to develop them because some people are great vision casters but they can't develop anybody worth squat. This is a developing job, somebody who's going to quip others to do the work of ministry so it can continue to grow. I wouldn't hire a Maverick, somebody who can't work in team, somebody who has to be a superstar because it's the wrong role for them, somebody who has to be a shepherding leader. Shepherding leaders are the kind of leaders that people want to follow just about anywhere because they get cared for so well. It's like they're there because they just love what they get to do together. I'm looking for someone who has energy, who has passion, I don't have anybody who doesn't have passion but I'm looking for energy and passion and I'm looking for people skills because I know that I can always get administrative handed off to somebody else. I can get that done but the people skills part, helping to build layers of people, attract new people, grow people, listen to people all around the year and not get exhausted but that's a special person. Okay that's gold, that's pure gold man, that is great stuff. I think that works and you know, as a guy who used to be an extrovert but after 20 years of ministry is more of an introvert now, I'm just sorry I can't work for you, that's too bad. We'll figure something out, we'll figure something out, but that's really good, you're right, if you want to get tucked behind a data screen and do excel spreadsheets all day, you're probably not going to be a great volunteer quipper. Nope, you're in the wrong job baby. Yeah, yeah that's good, that's gold, alright, play that part back and then we'll go to the next question. What's the best volunteer culture you've worked in and what made it great? Easy, easy, very, very best culture I've ever worked in was when we started the church in the mid 70s, 1970s. It was when Bill Hibles was in his 20s, I was in my 20s, oh no, no, you were three, but you got mature very quickly, yes, I had to come up to speed, but in those days we started out as a band of friends and we worked so hard because we believed so deeply in the cause we couldn't even stand it, we wanted to reach lost people with every fiber inside our very souls and so we would do whatever it took. I mean, we didn't even care if we were good at it, we would just throw ourselves at it a hundred times harder than anybody else to make things move forward. And even though the days were really, really long and we all had like marketplace jobs so we could support ourselves because the church had no money, the best part of it were the friendships, a really deep rich community of being known and knowing someone and doing life in community. So when somebody's father died, this circle all came together. It's the beauty of God's love up close and personal in friends that are accepting you exactly for who you are and where you are. That is just so amazingly spiritually wonderful, I run out of words because it's so awesome and we had that with each other. So sometimes we would end up at the end of the day going to some horrible restaurant because they were the only ones opened in Palatine at that time and we were starting in a movie theater so it was less than ideal for sure, picking up popcorn off the floor and the rug before us, the kids came in and the parents came in. But I will never forget the richness of the community and those are friends that are spread all over the United States now, maybe some even in other cultures. But when we come back together, I run into them on the road, it's as if no time has passed. There is a love and acceptance I can bring all of me to the circle and it's going to be okay. There's a love there that you can jump on and stomp on and test and it's still so solid that we love Jesus and we just really love each other. And that just made serving the most fun adventure ever. I guess it's great to hear about that. I mean, Bill's talked about the acts to community, all of his life, all of his ministry and you lived it. I mean, you lived it totally. But you know, the other thing that what you said reminds me of Sue is that there's a sense in which every staff member is a volunteer as well, right? Because we're not doing our 37.5 hours a week and where's my paycheck. I mean, it's that white hot passion that takes you over and above and it's like looking across the table as someone or even across the room at like some something that happened and on a Sunday and meeting each other's eye and knowing we're in this together. I've got your back. You've got my back and we are on mission for Jesus during this hour and a half like no tomorrow. It's that it's just the most amazing, content, fulfilling feeling to be able to do an incredibly significant mission and to do with people that you really, really love, you know, but that doesn't exclude hardships because, you know, in great loving situations can also be great pain if you don't resolve it. And you know, sometimes we'd argue to the floor with each other, just, you know, because we were obviously imperfect and we're 20. So what do we know? We didn't know enough about starting a church that was really impossible. We just didn't read the info, but I think it was just lots of learning, lots of relational change in the bank with each other. And once you've had that, it's like you're looking for that next thing where you can have that again. So if volunteers in every one of our churches had community and in a significant mission in every place they served inside the church, it would not be hard to recruit. It would just be them choosing where they think they can serve the best with who they are and how God wired them. Yeah, that's good. You can see even with culture being magnetic, like as we've continued this conversation, I can just feel this magnetic force pulling people in going, I want to be part of that. I want to be part of that. If we can reproduce that in our church, great things happen. You can feel it like when a great team wins and they all come back to the town. It's like everybody in the town is lit up and talking to each other and it's a blast because it's that we feeling. It's that we in the sports world, it's the we in our cities, it's the we in our churches, the we is strong. It is totally. I mean, we're recording this in August, it'll play back in October or November or some other time. I mean, the Blue Jays are on fire right now and it is electric and we will see how they're doing by the time this airs. Go Blue Jays. Yeah. Go Blue Jays. Hey, Sue, I'm sure there are some listeners listening right now, some leaders listening who are going, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, my volunteer culture stinks and this could be a staff member who's responsible for that volunteer culture. It could be a volunteer who's going, I don't really have a lot of influence, but I know it's bad. What advice would you give them? Like where's a good place to start if you realize you've got problems other than buying your book? Oh, yeah. They could buy not normal. Yeah. That would be good. Where would you start? I would start relationally. It's just, I think that's the strongest place to start. If I'm a brand new leader or if I'm a key volunteer that just wants to sit down with the people in my one little room, in my one little room, I just would like to say, you know what you guys, I think our serving experience could be so much better, so much richer because we could have more fun with each other if we knew each other. What things would we want to change about how we're doing our serving in this room? Start small. Start small. I'd love to listen to the volunteers because they will tell you exactly what's wrong and most of the time, they do have some fixes in the back of their minds about how they would fix it. Then you'd be able to understand like what part of it is value. They just don't feel valued. And then as a leader, you know how to add value to the equation. Do they not, do they not understand the vision, the vision, the mission, why don't they feel as significant? Where did that ball drop? It tells you and informs your decision, but I love to listen to them, to put the value piece out. I'd also want to know how connected do they feel. That would give me something to work towards because I would realize that they don't have any community, so this is just a task for them. Or I'd want to know, do they not feel included? Maybe we're maybe a staff people, we are behaving in a way that leaves them in the dark on the information side. Maybe we can improve there. I want to know what it is that we're trying to remedy. And usually if I go one to one, one to ten groups of people, I can figure it out. You'll get the truth. As opposed to having a meeting for 150 people and going, what stinks? You know, because then you get the people who hog the mic and, you know, that's good. And I like what you're saying, because it's not even so much what you're doing, because chances are, if you're leading something, what you're doing is important, right? Yeah. You're filling a need. It's not like, you know, we're getting people to line up and, you know, do something that doesn't make any difference. It does make it different. So it's not what you're doing. It's how you're doing it that is probably making it difficult or easy for people. It's so much the how. I have ladies who had come during the week and they would put together the supplies for the weekend. And now, Carrie, they could easily feel very devalued because they could look at them around the circle and say, oh, my word, what are we doing here? We're just, you know, putting supplies in bags and we're doing it over and over and over until a leader walks in the room and thanks them, appreciates them and reminds them what kids will be there on Sunday, enjoying them, what will happen as a result of them, tying them to the big mission and the vision so that they never lose sight that this really does matter. Right. It matters when we tell the Bible story. It matters when we are small group leaders. It matters how we administer everything matters, but sometimes as leaders, we have to help people see how. Hmm. Sue, this has been so, so rich and I'll tell you, it just reminds me why I love hanging out with you so much. This has been great. Thank you. Sue, can you tell us a little bit more, give us the full title of the book where people can find it and then where people can connect with you online. Oh, absolutely. Well, first of all, you can connect with me on Twitter and 01, Sue Miller, sorry, opposite, Sue Miller, 01. Gotcha. Sorry. Second thing, you can get the book on Amazon, you get it there or you get it on the orange store. So either site is fine. Let's call what? Not normal. Not normal. Seven, incredible. Seven quirks. Sorry. Oh, Adam's going to kill me right there. Seven quirks of incredible volunteers. Yeah, I forget the title of my books too, by the way. Oh man, it's terrible. I know. Isn't that bad? You worked so hard on the book and then you can't remember the title. I'm like, I'm memorizing the title of my new release. So it's the, the lasting impact part I get. It's the seven powerful conversations that will help or might help or could help your church grow. I can never remember. The five parenting something, it's the sixth orange principle. Yeah. It is after why you're doing the business. Totally. Very active on Facebook too, right? I see you all the time. You're always on my Facebook feed and it's a good thing when you are. Yeah. That's a very fun. Hey. I'm enjoying it. Sue, thank you so much. You're welcome. Well, that was an awesome conversation with Sue and do you see how you're able to lead many more volunteers than you thought? And then probably what surprised me most about the conversation with Sue is just how much pastoral care is a part of that? Like how much just loving on people is a part of that? And it's such a, well, of course moment because isn't that how you like to be treated? But so often we make it about duty in the church or just obligation or whatever. So I'm sure you got some gold out of that interview. And if you want more, make sure you pick up a copy of her book, the one that she wrote with Adam Duckworth called Not Normal. It's about the seven quirks of incredible volunteers. It's going to help you a lot. Links to that way you can go direct to Amazon or to orange books for that or just go to the show notes, which you will find at karaenyohoff.com/episode60 and everything is there and some great quotes from Sue. If you want to share that on social media, you can do that as well. We are super excited today, the day of this podcast release. I am going to be in Austin or I am in Austin, Texas on the orange tour. So if you're in the Austin area and you're there, it's going to be awesome to connect today and then I'm in Dallas on Friday and then on a couple of weeks from now, going to be in Nashville to wrap up my leg of the orange tour. I love meeting you guys in person. You have no idea how encouraging it is to me when you email, when you tweet out some encouragement. That's sort of the payment for all this because it's free. It's just like, I'm just glad to know that this makes a difference. And if you're going to be in the Dallas area on Friday or in Nashville in a couple of weeks, just go to orange tour.org and register and we can hang out. In fact, if you're a senior leader, I'll even buy you a lunch. So we're going to have a senior leader lunch together on those tour dates. So that's going to be a lot of fun. Love that. One of the highlights for me is meeting you. And thanks so much for sharing the word about the podcast too. You can subscribe for free. Next week, I'm back with Josh Gagnon. He was on on episode 17 way back at the beginning of the year. And Josh actually came up to Canada. We hung out for a weekend and I recorded a podcast for him and then we hung out another hour and recorded one for this show. So Josh is one of the most successful leaders in the church today. He leads one of the fastest growing churches in one of the most unchurched regions in America. But as you know, most of us who have had some bit of success are a little bit insecure. And Josh just kind of opens up and talks about how he fights his insecurities and how he's overcoming the personal battles of leadership. It is a powerful conversation. You're not going to want to miss it. And I would just love for you to subscribe. That's one way you can do this for free and never miss a piece. What if this podcast is helping you? Thank you, awesome people for leaving reviews on iTunes or if you're reading my new book or Sue's book, leave a review on Amazon. It just really, really helps people. So thank you so much for that back next week with Josh Gagnon and so much more, including information on how you can get the audio book for my new book, lasting impact. So we'll see you then. Hope this time together today has helped you lead like never before. You've been listening to the Carry New Hough Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead like never before. [MUSIC]