The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 055 – Brad Lomenick on The 3 Essential Components It Takes To Lead in Today's Culture
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 55 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff, and I hope our time together this week helps you lead like never before. My guest today is somebody that if you've been a regular listener, you've already met. His name is Brad Lominick, and he is the very first returned guest. You'll hear some more of them in season two, season three, and beyond. But I'm just thrilled to have Brad back on, and he's had a fascinating year. When we last talked to him at the beginning, I think, end of 2014, he was just in the process of stepping back from catalyst as president CEO of catalyst. And we catch up with him. He's got a brand new book that released last week, which honestly, I mean, I've read a lot of books. I think it's one of the best leadership books I've read, period. It's called H3 Leadership. He'll be talking about that, but really about the internal journey he's had as a leader over the last few years, and how he burned out, how he wasn't leading well, even though he was leading probably one of the premier leadership organizations, how that changed his heart, and what you need to do to be able to gain an edge in leadership. So Brad and I are going to talk about that. Plus, if you hang on, he's going to be giving away 25 copies of H3 Leadership today. So hang on to the end of the podcast for details on that. So super excited to have Brad here. Hope you are well. And thank you so much for all of your encouragement, man. It's been a great season. And speaking of books, I have got a book coming out in just a week. That's right. October 6th is the release date for my new book, lasting impact, seven powerful conversations that can help your church grow. And actually last week I was in Los Angeles, hello to everybody who stopped by to say hello on the Orange Tour in Irvine, California. It was last week in California. I held the book in my hand for the first time. And man, that's a great feeling. So so many of you have pre-ordered the book. Thank you so much for that. Amazon keeps emailing us and saying, "Send more, send more, send more." So one of the reasons I think it's going so well is we have some bonuses for you. So if you pre-order in the next seven days, like I would just do it today, here's what you're gonna get. You're gonna get a free audio book. For those of you who love audio books, I actually narrate it. So you'll get the free audio book. You're also going to get a free ePub version. So you'll get it for your Kindle or whatever device you have. And you'll get access to an exclusive webinar with me on how to have meaningful conversations that move your church forward with your team, with your elder board, with your staff, with your volunteers. And if you're one of the first thousand people to order the book and you might be, you never know, here's what you'll also get. The first thousand get a limited edition Hatch Show Print Shop poster. That's totally frameable. It's gonna be a lot of fun. So hopefully that to you, if you get it, you can order it at lastingimpactbook.com and hurry because all those bonuses disappear on October 6. So you wanna make sure you get that in right away and just thank you for the early feedback from all of you, man, you guys have been amazing. And I wrote the book to help you lead in your church. It's really, I guess it's got some application beyond church, but I really wrote this one for church leaders. And so it's seven powerful conversations. Like for example, why is our church not growing faster? Or why are young adults walking away from the faith? Or how do I really engage high capacity volunteers? Or are we really committed to changing this or what? Because, I mean, you can have all kinds of ideas, but if you don't navigate, change well. Well, that's a problem. So I actually divided the book into seven chapters, seven conversations that are designed, not just for you to read, but for your team to read together. And at the end of every chapter are questions and then exercises you can do to actually get your church moving in the direction that I hope will help you accomplish your mission. So everything's available at lastingimpactbook.com. And I'd love for you to pre-order your copy today. And in the meantime, hey, I am so excited to have Brad Lomannick back. He has been a friend over the last few years, does some incredible humanitarian work with compassion and other organizations. He is now the president of Blink, his own company. And prior to that was a president and CEO of Catalyst. You know, if you've ever been to Catalyst Conference, it's amazing organization, Catalyst One Day. That's Brad. And we're gonna talk all about the journey that leaders need to take to really make it in leadership today. And remember, give away at the end 25 copies of his book, Details at the end of this podcast. Here's my conversation with Brad Lomannick. Well, it had to happen sometime. We got our very first return guest to the podcast. It's Brad Lomannick of Blink Consulting. Correct, Brad? - Yeah, that sounds very official, doesn't it? - It does. It does. Brad Lomannick, Inc. Hey, Brad. What does Blink Consulting mean? It's basically like my BL in Inc with the end on it. - There you go. Well, Brad, I was super excited to have you back because we're gonna talk all about leadership today, which you've had some experience in. And you're also releasing a brand new book that we'll talk about at the end. We have a little bonus and a surprise, a contest for listeners. And it's called H3 Leadership. And I was telling you before we started recording, like this seriously is quick. I haven't read every word, but I've had a pretty good sample of this book and pocket read chapters. And man, this is very quickly rising to the top of my list of favorite leadership books. And I know it's something I'm gonna be handing out to all of our interns this year at Kinexis Church and to our staff. It's just, it's fantastic. So congratulations. And we're gonna talk all about what it takes to be a leader these days. - Well, thank you for saying that. And I'm honored that you would find the book to be helpful and practical. And that's, you know, as we all write books and we all try to help leaders, that's our, that's always our goal. I mean, anybody who takes the effort and the time and puts sweat and tears and blood many times into a book knows that you just hope at some point it helps somebody. And so to hear you say that is really honoring to me. And thanks for, thanks for actually reading it. I sent it to you. And you actually, you actually like have read it. - You left it for me. - We were in a meeting and I got back from lunch. I was with Reggie Joyner and there's like copy where I was sitting and a copy where he was sitting. And so I just assumed you left it for me. Maybe I stole it. I don't know. - I don't know. I left it. - You left it. - It's jiggly. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're backpacks. - It's great. So Brad catches up for a decade. Like just, I know not everybody heard that earlier episode but you were on episode 27, I think. And at that time you were in transition because for a decade you led the catalyst conference. You are the catalyst leader. And it became I think one of the largest Christian leadership conferences in the world. I don't know, it was just huge. And under your leadership, you step back, catch us up on that journey and what you're up to right now as a leader. - Yeah. Well, to catch you truly up to where I am right now. I mean, I'm sitting in a parking lot of a quick trip. And in Adairsville, Georgia, I'm on my way from Atlanta to Nashville. And I was trying to like time my trip to find internet connection to do this conversation with you. And I ended up like a quick trip, which for those people who live in Atlanta and the south, they know how important quick trip is to many of us. So I couldn't find any other place but I ended up in a quick trip. - No Chick-fil-A nearby or anything. So you're just at QT, they come up. - Yeah, the quick, the Chick-fil-A was the next exit. - Okay, there you go. (laughs) - It was the next exit. That's true of most places around Atlanta is the next exit, at least the next exit is Chick-fil-A. - Is it Chick-fil-A? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great for me. - Anyway, like the point of even telling you that is, like my life right now is pretty busy around travel to lots of different organizations and clients. So I went, you know, I went from leading catalysts for 10 plus years. And about the last year and a half, I've been spending most of my time energy on doing consulting work. So I have a handful of organizations that I help and I spend, you know, anywhere, two days to some five or six days on site with them, helping them, working through strategy, a lot of conference help, a lot of marketing and branding help and really taking what I learned catalysts and sort of my journey for the last 20 years and trying to add value to their team or to their organization or whatever the project is, connected to them. And then I'm spending more time, I would say speaking, but not that much, you know, maybe one or two days a month and writing this textbook has been a big part of my energy and time for the last six months, even a year. - Yeah, you and I just got back when this airs from New England where we spoke at the activate conference with Josh Gagnon. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's some fun stuff. But Brad, you're the connection to Josh. - That's right, that's right. - At Orange Conference. Yeah, we had a great conversation and so. - We hung out backstage and yeah, that's right. Josh was my guest at Orange Conference and we just spent a lot of time together backstage. That was a lot of fun, Brad. So, you know, one of the things I love about you is, you know, you went through a really rough patch a couple years ago as a leader, where sort of you felt like your life was crashing in around you and you've been very honest. The book talks about that. We talked about that on the last podcast episode you did. But tell us what happened, like what? 'Cause I think all of us start out as a leader and if you last in leadership, you become a very different leader than you were when you started. It's just life does that to you. God does that to you. Leadership does that to you. You know, I think one of the reasons you and I connect is we both had a crash. You know, I crashed about nine years ago in leadership. You're a little more recently. But around the same age, pushing 40 when we both had our crashes. And I think a lot of leaders who are, you know, running hard, driven, maybe love God, but you know, A type personalities can relate to just getting to that place where things are so thin, you, your world just implodes. And that happened to you a couple of years ago. So talk to us about that in the journey since. - Yeah. Well, and the, you know, the context for sort of my leadership crisis moment was nothing that was breaking news. You know, I mean, a lot of times- - There's no scandal. There's no headline. - No scandal, no moral failures. You know, no things that were disruptive to the point of lots of things happen to be pulled apart or put back together in many ways. And it was just this gradual slow decline to what I would say was an unhealthy state for my own leadership. And I think I said this last time we had a conversation. The first time you had me on was that everything about catalysts at that point was on the rocket ride of success. I mean, we were up and to the right. We were the, we were the most successful we'd ever been. You know, we had more than neither of us than we'd ever had. And so, organizationally, we were incredibly successful and healthy and all the measurements were there that when you would go, wow, you guys are killing it. - Yeah, keep going for me. - Keep going. - Exactly, yeah. But for me, I felt like my leadership was stale. I felt like here I am leading a leadership organization. I'm trying to put on a leadership conference and conferences. I had just written a leadership book and I'm not a very good leader. And so it was, it was a number of things that converged some conversations on my team who all those things came together. And it was, it was, you know, the first thing was you got to take a break. Like you're, you're at that point where this could quickly turn into something really bad happening. - Yeah. - And fortunately for me, like I had some people who stepped in and I had some self-awareness enough to know that it was time to step away and take a break. So I took a few months off and then out of that came back and it was very clear that like, that not because of that crisis that I need to step away from catalyst, but more because of a lot of things that had been circling and been, I think, stirring in my heart that I need to step away. And people are like, well, so did you step away because you were a bad leader? I'm like, no, that was not the reason I stepped away. I stepped away because it was actually just time to pass the reins. - Yeah. - And the leadership crisis was more of my own personal things that I had to walk through. And the lesson I learned, Kerry, more than anything else is that most of us, if we're really honest, like if we're leaders and we're stewarding something that is significant or insignificant, I mean, we're all stewarding something, but most of the time, if we're really honest with ourselves, we're not that many steps away from probably being at a crisis point. And a lot of that is because of the pressure, it's because we're type A, it's because there's expectations, it's when you start piling all this stuff on and it's quickly, very quickly, you get to the point where you start to almost step out of your own reality and you look around and go, wait, like, what happened to that guy or that lady that I used to be? Because I really liked that person, but all of a sudden, I'm a jerk, like, I don't even want to be around myself if I'm really honest. And that was where I can get to, like, 10 years in, all the people who had been with me for a long time on the countless team, they were like, and I'll still follow you, like, we're killing it, like, again, all these success times. - Yeah. - But I really liked that old guy, that old Brad that was a lot of fun to be around and celebrated successes and really, like, cared about me. Like, you know, you start digging into those things and you're like, well, I like that guy too, what happened to him? - Yeah. - And so, for me, it was just, in many ways, a recalibration to, I think, return to my true self. That was probably the biggest lesson I learned. And, but it wasn't like, again, some major moral failure or major issue that I had to work through. It was that slow, steady decline, which is caring to a lot of us if we're really honest about it. - Yeah, I think that's the thing that's so surprising to a lot of leaders is, Brad, that we actually become somebody that we weren't expecting to be, right? You just end up being that different leader. Did you know, like, was this something that you picked up? What gave you the clues that, I think, in the book, you call them, what, Darb? It's Brad backwards, this leader that you were becoming? - Right, right, yeah. - Yeah, and so, how did you become Darb? How did you become that alter ego that you didn't really like and the people around you didn't like? Were you aware of that or were other people pointing it out? - Well, I was aware of it. I think I gave myself a little bit of permission to be that way because the pursuit of the vision, like the pursuit of all the expectations that were being piled on, I felt like we're more important than the people that were in the way of that. And man, that was like a, again, a kick in the gut when you realize, like, wait, I'm not that kind of leader. I'm not the kind of leader that just leaves people in the ditch. But most, for me anyway, the type Aisms, the ambition, the ability to sort of stick with it to the point where I will persevere beyond all else, I'll make things happen, I will execute, I'll get things done that felt like to me permission to say it's okay if there's a few people that are strung out along the ditch that I just left because we're getting to the finish line. And the team gave me, well, they knew me well enough to step up and sort of knock on the door kind of quietly and go, hey, I love you and I'm all for you. And man, again, I will follow you till we go off the cliff. But I just want you to know that there's some things happening that I see in you that are different than, and I don't think they're healthy. That was a big part of it. There was also some people around me that I think had the, they were friends enough, they're close enough friends that they could say that as well. And many times, we allow people closest to us to get close to us but we don't necessarily always take what they say as the truth because we feel like, well, they'll understand, they'll understand that I'm still accomplishing things. They'll see that there's power in me grinding it out because ultimately at the end of the day, that it'll still look like success. And that's dangerous. Like, there's a level of accountability we all want to have as leaders, but you got to be willing as the leader to actually give people permission to not only step in and call you out on something, but actually actually like change the system that you're in. And I just looked at it and said, man, this system is working because we're having success. Like we're moving the ball forward. - You're being rewarded for your dysfunction, right? - Yeah. - To some extent? - Yes, that's exactly right. And again, it was, I feel like it was in between dysfunction and in between sort of just unhealthiness. - Yeah, sure. - But it wasn't to the level of like total major fire drill, you know, where? - No, no, you know, this wasn't alcoholism or anything, but you might say, and I'm saying this because I think a lot of leaders can relate, you would be what, you know, some doctors would call a high functioning alcoholic, not that you struggle with alcohol at all, but it's like, you know, every day I show up, I do my job, you know, I'm fine. Like in fact, we've never been better, but the reality is there were some things underneath that needed attention. And I get that. Now, you know, Brad, what's interesting to me is I think a lot of leaders can relate because two things are happening. Number one, you're doing really, really well at your job by many, many metrics, and number two, you're getting older at the same time, every year we all get a year older, and you think, well, maybe this is inevitable. Maybe this is just how every leader who is successful becomes, but you challenge that, right? When your friend Steve, I think his name is, really kind of hit you between the eyes and said, Brad, this is bad. And talking into, you know, had a conversation and you took a sabbatical, you were willing to your credit to look at that. What made you think that, you know, becoming that kind of guy, Darber, whatever, you know, your alter ego? What made you think that that wasn't inevitable, that there might be, maybe it was possible to go back and still have success, but be the Brad that you remember fondly? - Well, I think the, you know, the conversation you're referring to, Steve Cochram, it's, you know, it's in the book and I'm pretty, I'm very open about that conversation and sort of that really sort of launches the book into the whole framework of H3 and the habits and all that stuff, but, you know, what he did is he gave me permission to be able to step back and actually, to actually, I think, reevaluate, but also to step away from the expectation of results. And it's like that prize fighter who is in the boxing ring and they'll actually pass out before they'll bow out. And most of us as leaders, because we're so driven, we will actually pass out before we bow out and we will go so hard that somebody has to literally, like, almost, you know, punches in the face to get us back to a place of rest or perspective or whatever. And for me, that was, that conversation with Steve where he was like, "Hey, listen, man, you're done." Like, you are, you are at that point of being fizzled. And you don't realize it though, but I can see it in you. And him stepping in and doing that for me, I'm not sure, but I would think, Kerry, that if that wouldn't have happened and that was God's hand in my life and it was a lot of things showing up, but I might have just kind of driven off the cliff. - Yeah. - And, you know, and again, not because I was saying my goal is to drive off the cliff, but we just will do things as leaders that we don't even realize we're doing to the point where we will actually destruct ourselves. - Yes. - And, you know, that's, again, a dangerous place to be. We don't even realize that we have to have people around us who will say to us, hey, not only are you done, but I'm gonna put something in place here that makes sure that you protect yourself from yourself. - Yep, you know, and to your credit, I mean, you were open enough to listen to Steve. This wasn't like a year-long dialogue where he was in your face every Tuesday. It was like, he came to you in a very short window of time. You said, maybe God is in this and maybe I need to listen, which is to your credit. And I think there's a lot of leaders. You know, you're a single guy, I'm a married guy. My wife was telling me probably for two or three years you need to get help. You need to get help. You need to go see a counselor before I went. And I should have just had the humility to listen. But again, when everything's up and to the right and you're successful and you're applauded for everything you do, you kind of get this air about you that you think, well, I'm invincible, but you're not. - Right. - But you're not. - Yeah, and as you know this is true, there's a big difference between preventative leadership medicine and prescriptive leadership medicine. - Yes, let's talk about that, go there. - Well, preventative is the conversation of, hey, you're done. Like, I can see it. So we're gonna put some things in place here that will make sure you don't go off the cliff. Prescriptive medicine, leadership medicine is, you just went off the cliff. Now we've got to get you back to a place where you're healthy. And, you know, so fortunately I didn't have to deal with a lot of prescriptive leadership medicine. I had some preventative leadership medicine in my life that allowed me to, you know, pretty quickly get back on the right track, but, you know, unfortunately, a lot of the lessons we learn in leadership are prescriptive. - Yeah. - Because we failed miserably and all of a sudden now, it's got to be like, well, you got to have this, you got to have this box of peels, you know, you got to have this prescription, whatever that looks like, whether it's a new level of accountability, whether it's, you know, systems in your life, whether it's your spouse going, hey, like, we're done. I mean, you know, that's the place we don't want to get to. And preventative medicine will allow us to see things happening before they really do happen. - No, I think that's a really good distinction. And I think prescriptive medicine is hard for a lot of leaders. Why is it, why is it so tough, Brad? Why is it so hard for a type driven people to actually sit down and look at the cracks and go, uh-oh, there might be a problem? - Well, I mean, you know, we hit on it earlier. Like, none of us want to acknowledge that there's some things we can't do, or there's some things we're not good at. Because whether we like it or not, the very essence of why we probably got to where we are is because we were willing to fight and scratch and claw and hustle our way and grind our way to the top. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, inherently, that is a really good thing. I mean, that's why one of the three H's for me is hustle. Because I believe that you have to be willing to work your guts out and keep leaning in and have a posture that says, I'm going to make it happen. But most of us, we start to lose our lack of reality, the more we steward, you know, when we get so disconnected from the norm, the more people that are around us, the more things we have that we're responsible for, the higher we go up the ladder of influence, the further the fall is. And, you know, we start putting in those benchmarks and those runs that we think are protecting us from the fall and actually they're preventing what I would say are healthy slips. And I don't mean like you're morally failing, but I mean, there's some healthy slips that need to happen to you. You need to be failing as a leader quite often. And you know, you got to have some moments where you're not being deprived of reality deprivation or not being deprived of reality. And that reality deprivation sets in a lot. And all of a sudden, we don't have any, you know, every swing we take is a home run. - That's right, I don't do singles. I don't do doubles, I swing for the fences every time. - And I don't strike out either, by the way. - Right, and, you know, at some point, we just all look around and go, well, man, I'm the man or I'm the woman, and that's just not true. So, you know, without those strikeouts, we start to think, well, we really are batting a thousand. And, you know, so none of us carries, none of us as leaders set, we don't sit down at the beginning of our journey and go, man, if I can only get to the place where I'm really vulnerable for something major crisis to happen in my life. And that's a good place, none of us do that, you know, but just the slow derailment. It's like the guy who, you know, you get in your boat and you set a course for that destination. And if you're just a little bit, maybe one degree off of the beginning, right? I mean, that doesn't make a difference. You don't even notice it. And then 10 years later, you are severely off course. - Yeah, but you're never in the atmosphere. - Yeah, you never realized it because you looked at it and thought, hey, we're still moving in the right direction. You know, the wind hadn't blown us over yet. And you just don't even, you don't even expect it. And then you get a few years down the road and go, I'm not that person or I'm not in that place where I thought I would be. - Yeah, now you see a lot of leaders. I mean, you've, and you and I both know some very humble, grounded leaders who are at the top of their game. But like, do you, do you just think that this struggle that we've been talking about so far in the podcast is just endemic to leadership? Do you think that this is something that most leaders at some point will be forced to struggle with or end up struggling with? - Yes, I do, especially if you're, if you're dealing with something in terms of what you're stewarding. - Yeah. - That is, it's not about size. It's about the importance and the impact. - Yeah. - And especially in the Christian community as followers of Jesus, like as Christians, there's this whole other element, which is the, you know, the parts of the cosmos that we don't even understand what's happening. You know, the battle of eternal and all these, you know, whether it's the devil or Satan or evil, that all these forces that are happening that we can't control, and I don't want to get into a theological conversation on that, but, you know, when you pile that on top of, of somebody who's stewarding a lot, there is a huge amount of responsibility and there's a huge amount of opportunity for things to go wrong and for things to fail. And, you know, when you're given sort of all those, you know, that is a reality you think, wow, like this could happen pretty quickly that things go in the wrong direction. And, you know, combining that with our own demise potential because we're, we're, at the end of the day, we don't necessarily start with the humble posture as leaders, because we're driven towards ambition and success, you combine all that and you're like, wow, okay, well, I do have a lot of things to deal with here as a leader. And, you know, when you're stewarding something small, I think this is why the scriptures are so clear and there's just this constant sense of, hey, you know what, Brad, your faithful with little, I'll give you a little more. Your faithful with little, I'll give you a little more. If you're faithful with little, I'll give you a little more. And that steady handoff of responsibility, I think over time is actually a good way to sort of see your leadership journey. This is why I'm concerned, Carrie, like about, I love young leaders and so do you, but the 24-year-old, the 24-year-old that all of a sudden steps in to huge influence and responsibility, I'm really concerned for them. Not because they can't do it, but they didn't have that stair step. They didn't have the 10 years of up and then back down a little bit and then up and then back down a little bit and then up and then back down a little bit. - That's character forging, it is. - It is character forging and without that, I think we're seeing a lot of leaders who are really having a hard time because they look around and go, well, now I've got something significant and I better act like I got it together because people are looking at me and wanting answers and expecting me to be that great leader. And I would argue if you're a 24-year-old in that situation, it's just to look around and go, guys, you know what, I'm 24. And I got to surround myself with some people who are older and wiser than me. And I know that I don't know anything and I'm okay with that. - And I'm scared. I have, yeah, some reason I have my hands on the wheel right now, but I got to have other people, otherwise we're going to crash into the cliffs. And be okay with saying that. Be okay with, nobody expects any different from you. - I'm really glad you raised the spiritual component as well and I think we tend to swing toward two pendulums, either it's all spiritual and I have no responsibility. The devil made me do it. Or, you know, ah, that stuff isn't really real. Well, you know, I believe in a personal force of good, Christ. I also should probably take seriously a personal force of evil. And I think in ministry, it's a ministry that really opened my eyes to the fact that, wow, these supernatural forces probably play some kind of role. And they do make it harder for spiritual leaders. And I think the key is to avoid either side of the pendulum where it's like, well, I have no responsibility, you know. It's out of my control. No, no, you have some control. You have some responsibility. But there are interfering factors as well. And I think that could be great. And I agree with you. I think this is endemic to leadership. I think it's almost an epidemic in the church. And I love the stair step analogy. And I love the idea that God can correct you. And, you know, our stories are a bit parallel in the sense that there was no moral failure on my part around my crash or anything, you know, nothing worthy of headlines. It was just, you know, a leader kind of imploding under his own weight. And God graciously saying, okay, well, let's look at that. And let's put you back together again. So, you know, and we've talked to Perry Noble too about that on this podcast. - Yeah, and I've heard this said before, I don't know who quoted this and I'm paraphrasing. But, you know, the idea that I'll trust a leader who has some scars. I would actually rather follow somebody who's had some failures. I don't wanna follow that person who has had this rosy life of every, you know, you're going from success to success. And there's nothing wrong with that again. You know, from strength to strength is scriptural. But I wanna see, I wanna make sure that somebody has had some down points because your down points are just as important to define you as your up points. - Oh, I learned so much more from the pain than I do from the success. There's no question about that, right? - Yeah, and, but again, most of us as leaders, we think, well, you know, if I'm in an interview and I get to really talk about the things I struggle with and be vulnerable and talk about the mistakes I've made and talk about the things I'm not great at. And, you know, yes, actually, I would appreciate if you would talk about that. 'Cause that's how I'm gonna know that you know who you are, truly, you're self-aware enough to see the things that you don't do well and you've learned from them. And now you're moving on, so. - I agree. And I think people admire your strengths, but they resonate with your weaknesses. It's your, you know, your weaknesses are kind of like, yeah, okay, you're just like me, I get that. So, you know, Brad, what you did took a lot of courage because you took a season off a few months off, but then you decided not to go back to your previous role. It would have been really easy to go back and be energized and, you know, the new Brad or the old Brad or whatever, but you didn't. And I think one of the reasons a lot of leaders get scared about actually looking inside, looking in the mirror, sitting down with a Christian counselor, which you've done and I've done and so on, is you walk away into the unknown, which is exactly what you did. I mean, what you're doing today didn't exist 16 months ago, 18 months ago. How scary was that? Just to say, okay, this is serious enough. That I'm gonna change what I do. - Well, I would say it's less scary for me because I'm in a stage of life where I don't have a family. - Right. - I think I would be naive to say that, you know, that, well, it was, you know, it was so hard because I have the responsibility of kids and the spouse. Like, I'm not dealing with that reality. I think the scariest for me was identity. And that was the piece that was, that, you know, when you really start to dig down to the, and you peel back the onion and you peel it back again and you really get to the core, that question of, does anybody really wanna still hang out with me if I'm not the catalyst guy? Like, if I'm not, if I'm not the guy in charge of catalysts, are people gonna wanna talk to me on the phone and, you know, will they wanna go on trips with me and will they wanna be my friend? And that's, that was probably the part for me that was that, you know, kept me up at night the most and woke me up early in the morning, the earliest. - Right. - But, you know, the part that really helped me with that is, and I think I may have even talked about this on the last podcast, is, you know, there was a point during my sabbatical, towards the end of it, when I was actually hanging out with Steve Cochram, who has really been influential and, again, has, you know, started the conversation with me, he said, okay, today Brad, we're killing Callis Brad. Like, we're putting a knife in that dude. And it was like, wait, no, I like Callis Brad. I gotta like that guy. - My whole identity, yeah, but my life, I got a decade. You should see, you should see his contacts list on his phone, holy cow. - Right, I mean, Callis Brad knows everybody and he's like, well connected and, you know, people wanna take his call and like, no, we're killing that. We're killing Callis Brad, he's dead. And we had the ceremony, like we killed Callis Brad. And I'll tell you what, it sounds kind of corny and it sounds like, what, what does that mean? But that sense of burying that season for me was really important. And part of it was because now I can talk about it, I can joke about it, I can walk back in to the Callis offices and feel incredibly free of any sabotage mentality or any sense of, wait, like I need to get some mojo back here because you guys know at one point, I was the man here, right? Like, you know, I was the guy to build this thing. Like all that creeps in, Carrie, when, 'cause a lot of people can step away from something because they're forced to or whatever. And then all of a sudden, two months, four months, six months, a year later, they want it back. - Which also takes an incredible humility, which kind of brings us to the three Hs you write about in H3 leadership. So just, you know, you talk about humble, hungry hustle. Humility, that's a big one. You know, we all know it's important, but what do you mean like every leader needs to be humble, needs to be hungry, stay hungry rather, and always hustle? So why is humility? I mean, I think a lot of us have read Jim Collins and everything, but just remind us why humility is so, so critical. And I think your whole journey, you know, models that at this point. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna look in the mirror. Yep, Steve, you're right. Yep, we're gonna kill catalyst Brad. Yep, I'm gonna embark on this bold new future. - Well, you know, if you take a survey of people and ask them, what do you hope for in a leader that you wanna follow? Humility is always gonna be at the top of that list. It may be at, you know, not just in the top three, but it may be the top one. And I think humility is this really simple perspective that said, it's not about me. It's not about me. It, you know, I'm willing to lower myself to elevate others. And, you know, that's, it seems really easy on paper to live that out. And especially followers of Jesus, like, you know, we're following a savior in Jesus who is the ultimate expression of humility. But I don't, at the end of the day, I have a hard time finding a lot of really at the core humble leaders. And, you know, it doesn't, and there's sometimes I'll find a leader who looks like it on paper and, you know, they outwardly, they try to portray humility, but inwardly, they're really at the end of the day, they're all about themselves. And I just think this is way harder than it seems. And so part of the, part of the reason I started with, with the idea of humble is one, it's foundational. And it needs to be that first age that's in everybody's life. But, but two, so much of your humility goes back to some basics of the way you see yourself. And it's, it's that sense of just, of knowing yourself, being self aware. It's, it's the idea of being authentic and vulnerable. It's, it's understanding your calling. Like, man, if we get our calling right and our assignment right in terms of what season of calling we're in, then humility flows out of that because we're so dialed in to who we are. And it gives us pure freedom to sort of make it about others. And I just, I feel like that, again, you know, humility sounds good on paper. It's, oh yeah, humble, like everybody, Brad, like every, every leader should be humble. - Yeah. - Humble, let me tell you about it. - Right. - And it's just, it's not as easy, I think, as we think it is. And again, if we're really honest with ourselves, most of us are not necessarily wired or even living humility out right now. - Well, the A-type personality fights against that, right? The drivenness, the ego, the drive and all of that. So what are some of the characteristics of a humble leader in your view? Like when you say that, you go, you know what? This, this, this is humility in its best sense. - Yeah. Well, I think, I definitely think an awareness of who you are is where it starts with. Like self-discovery, that's the habit that I really started with in the book is in its self-awareness. And, you know, the idea of openness and vulnerability and authenticity, being honest, being transparent, those are all parts of humility. I mentioned the, you know, the issue of calling and just really understanding why you're here. Well, you know, what is, what is my assignment? What am I supposed to be doing? But also, why have I been wired the way I've been wired? You know, I also, I also think a proper perspective of just seeing your place in the story. And you've got it as a humble leader. I mean, at least the humble leaders that I know that I really, I see their humility and I go, man, I admire that. It's because they're content with where they are in the story. And some of them are not the leading role. - Right. - They're okay with that. And some of them are the leading role and they realize that that's where they're supposed to be. But they're incredibly confident, you know, there's quite confidence in that particular place where they're supposed to be. And I can guarantee you this, if the ones, you know, again, we all think, well, I can be humble if I'm not stewarding and carrying a lot. That's actually probably more true than not. But you'll start to see that lack of humility show up in the small things early on in your life. And, you know, this is one of those traits and one of those things as leaders that we've got to live out way before we need it. You know what I mean? Like we've got to prove humility when we're not carrying a whole lot that we would ultimately be proud of. - Yeah, that's fair. - Or we would show everybody. - Well, I think that's very true. It's a habit and a posture. And I love what you said about, you know, your role in the story, because even if you're leading something massive, if you're the leader of, you know, one of the largest churches in your city, or, you know, the largest organization you know of and, you know, you're graduating class or whatever, however you compare, reality is, you know, there's a much bigger story going on than just your church or your organization, right? At the end of the day, you're just, you're playing a role in a much bigger story that God is writing and you get to play the role. And if you don't play the role well, he'll find someone else to play the role. He's perfectly capable of that. - Yeah, we're one second away or one moment away or one other leader away from being out of the story. And when you carry a posture like that of, man, this story didn't start with me. - It doesn't end with me. - It doesn't end with me. - And it's not about me. It actually takes a lot of the pressure on them. - Yeah, it does. It really does. It's very liberating because you're like, you know, I got a role to play and my role is to be diligent and to be an excellent steward of this. But God, if you want to take it out of my hands, you can take it out of my hands. Go ahead. - Yeah, and that's again, where this, you know, the three-legged stool of humble, hungry and hustle have to work together. - Yeah. - 'Cause I know a lot of leaders who hustle and have no humility. - Right. - And they're the, you know, they're the ones who run over you. I know a lot of leaders who are humble, but have no hustle. And they're the ones that I really like, I like them, that I would never follow them because they don't get anything done. - That's a good point. That's a good point. There's lots of humility, but without hunger and hustle, like hungry and hustle. Yeah, God needs you to do something. - Yes, exactly. And that's why people, you know, I've had a few folks say, Brad, hustle, come on. Like, humble and hungry, I get that. But hustle, what would you put hustle in this title with for? I'm like, man, listen, they got to work together. I know a lot of people who are really willing to learn and they'll read a lot of the books and they really understand it's not about them, but they're not doing anything. And so these three have to work together. Otherwise, you know, you can sort of see one at the detriment of another one. - So take us to hungry. What does it mean to be a hungry leader? And I know a lot of young leaders who are really hungry. I mean, is that something you just kind of lose as you get older or what do you mean by hungry and how do you stay hungry or get hungry? - Yeah, well, I think the simplest way to think about hungry is your posture of consistent and ongoing learning. And just that idea that I've never arrived. So humility is just not about me. And hungry is the posture that says, I'm not there yet. - Right. - So all podcast listeners, hey, kudos, man. You're hungry. - Yeah, absolutely. - That's great. - If you're hungry for consuming more content and learning, you know, I like to think of a picture of a hungry leader, if somebody who has arrived, they are the cat's meow. I mean, they are the man or they are the woman. They're at the top of the food chain. They control and dominate their industry. They are the senior pastor of the largest church in the world and they're walking into a meeting with moleskin in hand, with 10 out and here we go. I'm taking notes. - Yeah. - And I don't have to, like I've arrived. I can coast the rest of the way. I've learned it all. You know, John Wooden said, this is such a great phrase. You know, it's what you learn after you know it all that really counts. - Yeah. - I just think that's so true. Like the posture of a hungry leader is one that says, regardless of where I am in the process, I will always be willing to learn more. And I'll always be willing to be teachable. And I'll always be willing to have a spirit that says, I haven't arrived yet. I haven't arrived yet. I haven't arrived yet. So that's what we mean by being hungry. - I think one of the points you make in the book is isn't curiosity, one of the virtues or, and you know, it's funny, Brad. I don't know if you've seen this or not, but when I run into leaders in their 70s or 80s, I mean, these are, you know, you either meet really cynical know-it-alls or people who have given up. It's like, I haven't learned anything in 25, 30 years, but you should see my golf game. Or, you know, you run into people, and this is kind of, you know, what I have on target if I ever reach that age, who are still curious. You know, the university professor with the twee jacket who sits upright in his chair with his spectacles and says, "Well, I was reading some recent literature, and there's some new theories about da-da-da." And I'm like, "Dude, you're 82 years old." And like, but they're curious, right? And I'm like, "I wanna be that guy." And so is curiosity just one of those habits that really keeps you hungry? - No question, yes, definitely. And the key to curiosity, Kerry is not just a posture that says, I'm interested in learning new things, but it's also a posture that says, "I'm willing to listen." And I'm willing to ask really good questions. I listened to Tim Ferriss' podcast a lot, and he interviewed Brian Grazer. - Do we need to both, I should say? - Yeah, so Brian Grazer is, you know, he did, oh gosh, what was the... - He owns Half Hollywood, doesn't he? - Yeah, he partners with Andy, what's his name? - With Ron Howard. - Ron Howard, sorry, I'm thinking of Andy Griffith. - And they are, no, but what, and then that goes back, no, it's all connected, but what's the name? Is it Imagine Entertainment, is there company? - Yeah, that's exactly right. So Grazer was, like Tim Ferriss' interview in him, and he said, "Have you got a head in Hollywood?" He said, "I asked really good questions." And Varys was like, "What?" Like, that's it? Like, that's the way you get ahead. And he said, "Well, I'm naturally curious. I have an insatiable appetite for learning new stuff." But he said, "Here's the difference. When I'm sitting down with Denzel Washington, and I'm interested in Denzel Washington's world, and I know a lot about Denzel, and I'm asking him, I'm peppering him with questions constantly, and I'm really, really intrigued by his world. You think, when I'm up against another studio that wants to have him in a film, that I won't win in that contest, I'll win every single time." He said, "So, reality of my curiosity is that it's actually helped me get ahead in life because when you ask people questions, what you're doing is you're saying you're valuable. You're valuable to me. What you have to offer me is worth something. I actually want to learn from you." So this is, I mean, I say this to young leaders all the time, Kerry, that have no clue about anything. All right, some 21-year-old intern walking in to meet the president of the United States, or whatever the situation is, but you know the best way to show that you are able to play at the same level? Ask a really good question. And we all think that we have to answer some, we have to have some amazing answer to give to this person who is way more influential, and more powerful, and older, and more authoritative. No, like the best way for you to raise your level of power and influence to the same level as the person you're talking to is be curious and just ask them great questions. That will get you so far beyond even your level of competency, so that-- - It will, you know, two things. Number one, I've talked about Tim Ferris on the show before, and we'll link Tim in the show notes. Just a warning, his language is not always the same as yours or mine, Brad, but I think he's one of the best questioners out there. I mean, he is just fascinating to listen to. He does like one, two hour podcasts, and he is just a great questioner, so if you wanna sharpen your questioning skills, listen to Tim Ferris, and secondly, I don't know whether you've had this experience, Brad, but I often get asked, you know, hey, can we have lunch, or can I pick your brain, or whatever, and I can't do it all the time, but I'll do it once in a while, and sometimes I'm shocked because I'll get together with someone, you know, I've set aside an hour, and like, there's no questions, and I'm kind of like, okay, like, did you think we were just gonna hang out and be friends, like, and I don't begrudge it, but like, come on, hit me up, or, you know, and then I ask them questions, I've spent some of those hours just asking them questions, but it's like, I kind of thought this would be reciprocal. Did you run into that? - Yeah, all the time, and again, the guys that I really admire, especially older leaders, I mean, I've seen John Max will do this so many times at a conference, you know, I mean, John kind of arrived, like, John is the man. - John's done okay. - He's done okay, like, he's written quite a few books, and he's spoken that pretty much every conference known to man. - In the world. - Yeah, but when, you know, when I see John sitting in the front row, or I see John in the green room, or I see John side stage, and he's got his moleskin out, or his yellow pad with his four colored pen system, you know, and he's taken notes, like, okay, Brad, you're a knucklehead, as compared to John Maxwell, you are a complete knucklehead. So if he's doing it at his level, and his stage of life, and his wisdom, then you better buckle up and get your moleskin out. - Which is maybe why he's at that stage, right? - Absolutely, and that's why he stays at that stage, and that's why he got there in the first place. - Yeah, no, that's very true. And you're right, you know, I appreciate what you're saying, because if I'm like, hey, I wanna talk to this guy again, often on a first meeting, it's the quality of the questions. - Yes, absolutely, man, that is such a good point. And for all those listening, you wanna gain influence with somebody, then raise your level of question asking. - Yep, yeah, can I ask you, how do you do that? How do you formulate great questions? - You know, I think the most important thing is to be prepared. You know, you can sort of go in with your standards, but I would say do some research. You know, the conversations that I will start to lean in pretty heavily on with somebody I don't know is when they actually know me. - Right. - And they say, hey, Brad, like, man, I love your stuff, I've read your blog, man, I read the cattle seeder. In chapter five, you, man, you really said something that was connected with me. Can I ask you a question about that point? - Right. - I'm in, like, I mean, I may have never met you, but you've got my attention now. - So specific and researched? - Yes, specific and researched, but also, but also that level that you're asking something that, you know, you know, the questions that are brown those questions, right? - Right, give us an example, give us an example. - Well, like, if somebody came to me, you know, if I'm having a conversation with somebody and they say, they say, well, Brad, like, you know, I'll never get to your level. I mean, you know, you've, you're such demand. And, you know, you're, you've really got to a place where everybody wants to be around you. And by the way, like, you know, I'd love to get a, you know, this is another conversation, but I'd love to get you to write an endorsement for my book. (laughing) - They're kissing up with a purpose, yeah. - Is this you pitching me on your book or are you asking me a question? - Right. - And, you know, you can just, you can sniff the brown thoseers out from a mile away. - Yeah. - 'Cause at the end of the day, like, their question typically will center on something that will help them. - Yeah. - And, you know, it probably will make you have to make a decision on whether you want to help them or not. - Right. - Right. - So I just, I think people who are really good question askers though are, they're really intentional and they really listen. Like, that's the other thing is so many times we ask a question and we're curious at our core, but we're, we all, we are so ready to fire back with our response because we feel like it's got to be our goal to show how smart we are. - Right. - And you've already established that you're smart because you ask a good question. Just listen. And if there's something you need to say, great. But, you know, we do this a lot in, especially blog world, right? I mean, we don't ever ask questions. We only give answers. But, and I think a lot of times you're, as a curious person, let the conversation play out and let that answer continue to sort of evolve itself and you'll watch even more, even more value come out of that conversation or whatever is happening at that point. - So that's tough for a leader, you know, go ahead. - Oh, gosh. No, it is. Like it, right? I mean, 'cause we think we've got the answer 'cause we're leaders and we probably do. We probably do have the answer. So if you, if you all, if you always want to remember, Kerry, I think this is, you know, for me really, when I was young, I always tried to do this. Especially asking questions is everything I'm doing in terms of question asking is not only giving value to the person I'm asking, but it's also making sure that I'm allowing them to win in the conversation. And I don't mean like it's, it's a competition, but I just want them to win. I want them to walk away from our conversation and go, wow, like, I don't know who that kid was, but I want to hang out with him more. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So to your assistant, who is that person? Can you find out? - Yeah. - You got it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And most of the times, in my world anyway, in my life and my experience, I didn't say anything in those conversations. I didn't give any answers. I didn't have to like come up with, you know, my five points on great leadership. All I did was ask good questions. - Yep. No, I think that's so good, you know, and even this podcast has taught me an awful lot. You know, there was a lot of debate about format. Would it be me speaking? And I thought, I already speak, I have a blog, you know? And I have these great conversations like you and I've had at different points backstage and I always walk away thinking, gosh, I wish, you know, people could have heard it. And now, you know, for just over a year, people can hear it, which is awesome. But I remember in the first few episodes, my wife and I were listening back and I was trying to get feedback from her and she said, you're talking too much. I'm like, what? And I'm like, oh, what do you mean? And she goes, you're just, you're trying to say too much. And I mean, when you're the leader, when you're the guy with a microphone and I'm used to being the guy with a microphone, you know, I could answer half the questions. And so I made it a rule. I try not to talk more than 10 to 15% of the interview and let the guests have 85 to 90% of the airtime. And man, I learn a lot. And you better be good with your questions, so. - Yeah, well, everybody who wants to, you know, Charlie Rose for me is one of those guys that I watch a lot and I try to emulate some of the things he does as an interviewer. And if you watch Charlie Rose a lot, you'll notice that he lets the conversation play. And there's a lot of times in his interviews on PBS that you'll think, it's getting awkward. Like what's happening here? He's like, nope, let the conversation play. Let it play out, you know. And sometimes his best answers from his guests are the ones that he's giving room for that curiosity to play itself out. You know, so as leaders, again, like you said, we typically tend to want to step in and sometimes just let it, let it ride. You know, let the awkwardness even peruse a little bit and see what happens. - Yeah, I'm good at awkward. I can do that very, very well, Brad. So, no, it's, you're Canadian. That's, that's what it is. - That's right. That's right. - Yeah, let's leave it at that. We won't say you're awkward, you're just Canadian. - No, but I'm glad, I'm glad you pointed that out because, you know, I'm enough of a conversationalist and I have some extrovert memory in me. I used to be an extrovert where I don't want that awkward silence to develop, but often the best stuff comes later. And if you're not trying to show what you know, you let your guests shine. I think that's really good. So hunger, hunger, which I run, go ahead, yeah. - Well, just last thing on that. If, if just a little side note and an extra tip. - Yeah. - Negotiating power, like if you want negotiating power and you know, this is true for people who are in sales. It's true if you're trying to recruit volunteers. It's true if you're trying to get somebody to, you know, to want to share your vision in a conversation. If you're quiet, you just increase your negotiation power. And we think that we have to talk in order to gain power and, you know, to win the conversation, just the opposite. When you're quiet in the conversation, the other person typically will get really nervous, especially in a negotiation conversation. It's like, well, that price doesn't really work for me and then just be quiet. And they'll start talking and they'll, usually people will just talk their way into your price. - That is a bonus tip. That's awesome. - It is. Like I have used that many times with, with lots of vendors and different people and organizations over the years. And I didn't have to say anything. I just, I was quiet and it got awkward and they said, well, I guess we can, yeah, we could probably meet you there. - That's brilliant. That's really good, Brad. And, you know, it's surprising how this is even tied into humility, isn't it? You know, the whole younger thing. It's not about, I know everything. It's like, I'm just listening and I got my notebook open. That's great. So the third age is hustle. And I love how you tie them together too, because this is the drive, right? This is the ambition. You even got a section in the book on ambition. And like, is ambition a bad thing, Brad? I think it has a bad rap sometimes in Christian circles. Talk about that. - Yeah, I think it can be bad. And I think it, it's like, you know, other things that I believe are really morally neutral. I don't, you know, if you watch ambition in people, ambition gone wrong is a drug dealer. It's a gang leader. It's somebody who is, who is, you know, compressing or repressing a people group. But ambition gone great is when you see, I think the church growing, when you see an organization that starts to, you know, have more impact, when you watch Mother Teresa and her legacy, when you see, you know, the great leaders around us like Mandela. I mean, those are stories and examples of ambition gone to the right side. So I think ambition at its core, really does have the ability to go either bad or good. And it's really drive. I mean, at the end of the day, ambition, and the idea of hustle is that sense of, of we're gonna make it happen. - Right. - And leaders have to have that posture. Primarily because you're the one out in front. And when you're the, when you're the person in front, that requires that you're willing to, especially today, Kerry, like this is, this is part of the reason that it's so important in today's economy of leadership. It's no longer are people willing to follow you only because you're in front or that you're, you know, the president or you're in charge or you have the corner office. They're willing to follow you because you're willing to get in the ditch with them. - It's a moral authority to lead, not a positional authority to lead, right? - That's exactly right. Yeah. And so if you're not in the ditch with somebody, if you're not next to them with your fingernails dirty, digging in the dirt, in the trenches, beside your team, as well as in front, you've got to prove that you're willing to hustle with them. And, you know, this is, this has not always been true. Like this has not always been true in organizations. It's not always been true in the church world, nonprofit world, business world. But today more than ever it is. And you've got to live this out. You've got to be willing to work hard. You've got to be willing to get it done. And especially around execution, I think execution for me anyway is probably, it probably rises to the top of the habits that go under the idea of hustle. - Right. - It's just a sense of, man, I'm willing to move the ball to the finish line and across the finish line and into the end zone. And, you know, we've got a lot of authors who write about this and it's become sort of vogue to talk about get it done and DIY and, you know, do it yourself, but it's true. Like if you're not willing to make sure that things are getting to completion, we have to have that today. Otherwise, you're just, you're walking around with a good idea. - Now, I think a lot of leaders would say, "Hey, man, I'm like Brad, I hear you, but I'm a 30,000 foot big picture leader." I don't really do execution. I mean, what do you say to that? Or I get bored in the details. What do you say to leaders who feel that way? - Well, I say to a lot of them, then you need to make sure you're in the right kind of organization. If not, you're gonna fail, right? If not, you're gonna have a hard time. And, you know, if you're in a, if you work for some massive company that has 25,000 employees or 50,000 or 100,000, you can probably get away with that. - Yeah. - And you'll never sort of be found out, like you'll always have your place as the visionary idea person. You know, you're the, you're the pie in the sky. I don't have to really execute on anything. But I can promise you this, if you're a church planner, if you're a startup, if you're an entrepreneur at your core, if you're a tech startup, you know, CEO, you better learn how to execute. - Yeah. - 'Cause otherwise, your idea that was so great on paper will never go anywhere. And, you know, you have to be able to create the vision as well as execute on the vision when you're in that kind of place. And the reality today is that a lot more of us and leaders are in that place. A lot more of us show up to a job or an assignment or a location and that's our norm. Like, our norm is if we don't, if we're not part of executing as the point person or the key leader, then it ain't gonna happen. - Right. And here's what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that your job is to micromanage and execute at every level, regardless of how big you get. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that your job is to create a culture that says we get things done. Like, we move things to the finish line. And our measurement of success is that we ship. It's what Seth Godin says. Like, we're shipping. We're getting it out the door. - I'm a writer who publishes. I'm a preacher who actually got up on a Sunday morning and delivered, even if I thought another week could have made it better. - You got it. That's exactly right. And that's all part of this idea of hustle. And I think it's more important in today's economy of leadership than it ever has been, that we're willing to be, to not just be the person who thinks it, but we're actually the leader who does it. - Yeah, the world is flatter and you're right. I mean, we're in an anti-authoritarian, anti-establishmentarianism sort of culture these days where nobody's impressed by your title and nobody's really impressed by what you did. It's like, it's just a different world. So, go ahead, what? - Well, you will get found, I mean, found out is the wrong way to say that sounds really negative. - Yeah, they'll smell you. - You'll be discovered as if you can't execute, you're not gonna probably end up rising to a lot of the levels in an organization, church, nonprofit, whatever, business that you want to, because you have to be able to do that, to prove yourself now to go to the next level. - Nah, that's a really good point. So, it's a three of those together. Humble, you know, be humble, stay hungry. Always hustle that kind of produce that leadership you're talking about. And again, Brad, just congratulations. It's one of my absolute favorite leadership books and I'm looking forward to reading every single word and sharing it with a lot of friends. At the end of the book, you talk to a number of key leaders and ask them what the hardest part of leadership has been for them. Any answers that surprised you in that section that you're kind of, and these are like household names, at least in church world. Any surprises there? - Well, I mean, I think in general, the surprising thing was that the hardest parts of leadership that these folks were pointing out were not the hardest parts of leadership I would have thought they would have pointed out. You know, I would have thought it would have been casting vision and, you know, creating a culture, like these big sort of esoteric pieces of leadership. And it ended up being really practical. Like conversations that are, I have a hard time confronting people in the conversations that are actually for their betterment. You know, I have a hard time writing an email of apology. I have a hard time being willing to go to that person and say, I'm sorry, or that I messed up. I have a hard time. The hardest things are actually like finding people who will go on the journey with me. So it ended up being stuff that's really practical. - Right. - That I thought would actually sort of not show up in those kind of answers. - So they're just like us. - They are just like us, yes. And it just reminded me that leadership's hard, you know, and one of the big points of this book, and the reason I'm writing it is leadership is hard work. And so it has to be habitual work. You know, if you don't think leadership is hard, just stick around for a while. And the more you lead, the more you'll realize that it-- - It'll get hard, I promise you. - Yeah, go ahead. - Well, and if something's hard, if something's difficult, you actually have to be intentional about putting processes in place to get it done. And this is true in weight loss. It's true in quitting smoking. It's true in getting healthy. You know, it's true in becoming a better father. Like anything that's really hard, you actually have to be more intentional about systems. And so I would just argue that leadership's hard, so it has to have habits that are built into it. - Hardest part of leadership for you in this most recent season? - Yeah, I think for me, it's actually the reality that I am, I don't have a team that is sort of my team. And it's the first time in 20, I guess 20, around 20 years of career life. And I don't have a team that I'm actually like leading. And I'm, you know, I have people that I'm influencing through consulting and speaking and writing, but I don't have a team right now. - Man, Brad, I can see that that would just be difficult. - Yeah, it is. And, you know, so at some point, I think in the next year, two or three, I'll probably jump back into a team environment and be part of a team and leading a team. But this season has reminded me that, you know, going on a journey with people is really fun. And, you know, and it doesn't mean this season is not fun for me. It's a different season. But that's definitely one thing I've missed and it's been difficult. It's been more difficult than I thought it would be, for sure, Gary. - Yeah, I can believe that and I can relate. And, you know, people are awesome. They often present the challenges in leadership, but also the great reward in leadership. Totally get that. So, Brad, I know people are going to get their hands on the book. It was released last week. And you actually kind of have a promotion for us, which is fun for podcast listeners. So, let's talk about that. - Well, yeah, we're excited to be able to do some giveaways. So, you know, I think we can give away at least 25 copies of the book to your podcast listeners. And maybe more, you know, I like to throw things out there that then the publisher has to deliver on. - Okay. - So, I'm going to say at least 25. And, man, if we can do 50, I may get in trouble, but, you know, you ask forgiveness on the front end, right? And then, afterwards, later. - So, how are we going to give these away? This is fun. What do you want to do? - How about this? How about we have people comment on your blog? - Okay, in the show notes. - In the show notes, maybe, maybe, you know, sort of their reason why they should get a free copy of the book. - Okay. - And then between you and I, we can read those and then decide who gets those. - So, some of their story. So, how about this? So, leave a comment on the blog and I'll give you the exact coordinate for this very shortly. But leave a comment on the blog. And then we'll actually, Brad and I will go in there over what, the next seven days or so? I'm going to do that. - So, whoever's in there? And then we'll, yeah, we'll choose those. - Okay, that's cool. All right, so here's what Brad and I are going to do. We're going to jump into the comments. We will give away at least 25 copies of H3 leadership and just tell us a little bit about your story and why you want to lead better? Is that a good thing? - Yeah, I think that's great. And don't be like, you know, don't try to win a Pulitzer Prize here. We don't want to, we don't want to be 10,000 words. - I'm a young leader and want to learn how to ask great questions, something like that. - There you go. - That'll work. - That'll be great. So, all you have to do is go to the show notes which are carrynewhough.com/episode55. That's episode five five. Brad and I'll be on the blog. And I'm sure if they've got a question for you, Brad, you'd be happy to answer as well, right? - Absolutely. Yeah, no, that'd be great. - All right, that's great. And then does the book have a website or they just find out on Amazon, on iBooks, all the usual places? - It's all the places. You can also go to my website which is just my name, BradLomoneck.com. L-O-M-E-N-I-C-K.com. And then H3leadership.com will also take you there. So either one of those places. And actually, if, you know, we'll still probably have some incentives up for like if you want to buy five or 10 books. We did some special offers for, especially for teams or leadership teams or staff. And those will be on those sites. And then you can always hit me up on Twitter or Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, any of those. Just my name at BradLomoneck or any of those outlets. It's just my name. - I will link to all of that in the show notes too. So Brad, this has been great. It's always fun connecting with you. And thanks so much for what you're doing. And I'm excited to see leaders get ahold of this new book and also just get better at what we do. - Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on, Kerry. I'm honored. Thanks for believing in the book. And hey, it's exciting because you and I get to work on something. - We do. - That's going to be happening next spring. - Well, I mean, I didn't know if we should, but I just-- - I don't know. Okay. I think we can talk about it. Can't we? We're working on a project together. - Yeah. This is a lot of fun. It connected to Orange and a whole new event called Rethink Leadership, which will be for senior leaders and senior pastors next spring. It's going to be a lot of fun. - It is going to be a conference. Are we even calling it a conference? What is it? - I would say it's more of a conversation. - Gathering. - A gathering. A gathering in the, you know, that will lead to conversations. - Yeah. It's going to be the end of April, 2016. I think it will be a gathering unlike any other. And you need to apply to get in, which is going to be fun. - That's right. And it's, I think you can actually, I think you can actually register right now if you go to rethinkseniorleadership.com. I believe that's the right URL. - Okay. We'll make sure it's right in the show notes. Yeah. Because when you and I are recording this, it's all still beta, beta, beta. That's for sure. - But you got a senior leader. That's the key here. - You have to be a senior leader. So you have to be like a senior leader, executive pastor, campus pastor type person. And it is going to be a conversation and a forum with man, all kinds of top leaders at it too. So it is going to be sensational. So just go to rethinkseniorleadership.com or whatever we end up putting in the show notes. - Right. - If that doesn't work, that takes you some crazy sight. Just look at the show notes. And yeah, there'll be a lot more details on that in 2016. But we'd love to have you there. And I'm just excited about this limited attendance event for top leaders that will be fantastic. - Yeah. Me too, man. Thanks again for having me on. - I love Brad's transparency, don't you? I just totally do. By the way, you can get everything we talked about in the show notes today. Just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode55 and this is great incentive to go to the show notes. Because if you're one of the people who leaves a comment this week, you're eligible to win one of 25 copies of H3 leadership. It's a brand new book. And again, I said it at the beginning of the podcast. And I'm not saying this just because Brad's a friend. But this is the book I'm going to put into the hand of every young leader I work with. I just think it's fantastic. It's a great book. So if you want a free copy, just go to the show notes. karaenuhoff.com/episode55. And tell us why you want a copy. Tell us maybe a leadership struggle you've got or something you're working on. And Brad and I will be in the comments this week. And then in a week, we will pick 25 winners. And you'll get a free copy shipped to you of H3 leadership. In the meantime, if you want to pick up the book, you can do so. You can get it anywhere. Books are sold. And of course, on Amazon, it's called H3 leadership. Be humble, stay hungry, always hustle. Great book. And next week, we are back. The best way to make sure you never miss an episode, including our awesome archive now. It's building every week of just top leaders who pour out their hearts and give their best leadership tips is to subscribe. And you can do that for free on iTunes, Stitcher, and Tune in Radio. Hit the subscribe button for all of you who keep leaving ratings and reviews of the podcast. Thank you so much. That helps get it out in front of other leaders. iTunes pays attention to that. And it's so encouraging. So thank you. I read every one of them. I'm just so grateful. Thank you, everybody, for making this so awesome. And then next week, I'm back. And we're going to do something we've never done before. Instead of being the interviewer, I will be the interviewee. And a friend that you may have met back in episode 16, Jeff Henderson, is going to interview me. Jeff's actually a really good friend. And we are going to unpack some of the principles for free in my new book, Lasting Impact. These are just seven conversations. We've had our church. I think could help your church grow. And we're going to talk about why churches don't grow fast enough, how to scale your ministry, why young adults are walking away from the church. We're going to talk about volunteerism and why is it in such rough shape in so many churches. So all of that. And that's the next week. So I'm really looking forward to it. And it is the day next Tuesday when Lasting Impact releases. So it'll be a big celebration, but we'll give you all that content that we can for free as usual here on the podcast. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for being part of this. And I am on the Orange Tour. This fall, I will be in Washington, DC on Friday. So if you're in the area, just go to orangetour.org and make sure you register. Also going to be stopping in Indianapolis later this fall, I think in mid-October. And then early November will be in Austin and Dallas. And then wrap it all up in Nashville in the middle of November. You can get all the details on orangetour.org. Seriously, one of the highlights for me is just meeting you, hearing your stories and being able to connect. So we'll see you next week. Thanks so much. And if you want to get your pre-order bonuses for Lasting Impact, you can get that at lastingimpactbook.com. Thanks. And I really do hope that our time together today has helped you lead, like never before. You've been listening to the "Carry Newhof Leadership" podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead like never before. [BLANK_AUDIO]