The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 048 – How to Change a Church Quickly. An Interview with Jeff Price
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 48 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. I'm so glad we get to hang out today. I really hope that this time helps you lead like never before. And maybe even helps your team. So today, you're gonna meet a guy named Jeff Price. And Jeff, the minister is actually just down the road for me in Canada. And he has got a fascinating story. One of the things I've always enjoyed about the way we do this podcast is, you know, there's some famous people, if you wanna put it that way, that you've probably heard of before. Andy Stanley's been a guest, so is Perry Noble, John Acuff. I mean, Pete Wilson, Mark Batterson. Coming up, we got Craig Grishell. We've got Ravi Zacharias and a lot more. But there's also a lot of leaders who are just, you know, doing what you do and I do every day. And maybe who aren't particularly well-known. And Jeff is somebody who leads a church that has undergone a lot of change in the last year and a half or so. And I know a lot of it's not a huge church. It's not like, you know, well-known, like life church would be, or North Point is. But I think that's the rub. I think that's where, you know, the trenches of ministry really are. And so I love getting leaders like Jeff on the podcast. And I think for a lot of us, it's just like, oh, you know, I can't imagine leading a church of 90,000. But I can imagine leading a church of 100 or 150 or 200. And so stories like Jeff are just so inspiring. And I think you're gonna really enjoy him because our subject today is how rapidly can you change a church? And Jeff is probably on the torpedo side of that equation when you hear his story. He's gone in and he's changed just about everything. Now, part of that is his personality. You're probably gonna find this a really entertaining interview, at least I did. And, you know, this is a guy who's just really passionate about the church, really passionate about Christ and is changing an awful lot really fast and is seeing amazing growth. So I think you're gonna enjoy it. And just know that as we move forward, you're gonna hear a lot of stories like Jeff. And he'll also hear from people that you might know about in advance to their names and their churches and that side of things. So I just think that makes this really fun and really interesting. By the way, if you haven't registered yet for the Orange Tour, would you do that today? 'Cause it is gonna be awesome. It is already August and the Orange Tour starts in September in Atlanta and goes through to November. And I'm gonna be at a number of different tour stops this year. You can get all the details at orangetour.org. It is a gathering in different cities across the United States of church leaders. And Orange is all about equipping your church to reach the next generation. I do the senior leaders track. It's gonna be a lot of fun this fall. I would love to connect with you. And nothing warms my heart more than talking to you guys in person. So if you can get to a city near you, you can probably afford to bring your whole team. It's not expensive. It's a great opportunity. And just go to orangetour.org for all the details. I also wanna thank everybody who is leaving reviews on iTunes. Thank you so much for doing that. Because whenever you do that, you help get the word out about this podcast so other leaders can benefit as well. I wanna thank OCC Runner who said great leadership conversation that goes beyond the cliches. Thank you for that. Jen's dude, who leads worship at a church of over 5,000, said it simply, I think it's him, his best resource for leadership development. Thank you so much for that. Nothing but great content from Jason Fitch. Thank you. Brent Dummler has left a review. Brent, thank you so much. I so appreciate all your support on social media and everything. EBC Pastor Steve, thank you so much for your review. T Bowden, Jeff Fleet, Ila Padda in arching or IN arching left a review. Beth Marshall, Andy J.M. 20. Thank you so much. I mean, I just so appreciate this. Leader in progress, he's a student. And it's just so awesome to hear from him. In Daisy left a review. So is Aaron DeLong and Grandview Pastor and Greg Atkinson. And can I just say thank you for that? You guys, you're awesome. I read every one of them. I so appreciate it. I know some of you, maybe you live in other countries other than the United States. I know a number of left reviews here in Canada. Many listen in Australia, New Zealand. If you can leave them in your iTunes store, again, that just helps get the word out. So we really appreciate that. So how fast can you change? That is a great question. And to help answer that, here is my interview, my conversation with Jeff Price. I'm really excited today to have Jeff Price as my guest. Jeff, welcome. Well, I'm so excited to be with you today, Gary. Hey, Jeff, tell us a little bit. I mean, I introduced you already, but tell us a little bit about yourself. And you've been doing ministry for a little while. But is this your first time as a senior pastor? This is my first time as a lead pastor. So right. That's probably why we're seeing so it's because I don't know what not to do. So we're just making it happen. I am familiar with that. Yeah, a lead pastor is the only thing I've ever done. So when I started, it was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And prior to that, what did you do before that? I had the amazing opportunity to work with Bill Markham at Central Community Church in St. Catharines and then in the States for a bunch of years and all throughout Toronto as well. So a multiple associate and youth pastor kind of rules before this. Yeah. So your student guy and then you oversaw Central as a fairly big church and here in Canada. And you oversaw all of their campus operations, right? I oversaw all their campus operations and their missions operations as well. And then how long have you been at Calvary now in your current role? I am just past two years, so pretty early. Yeah. So you're early and you can still measure in months, right? I can still measure in months. Which is great. Okay. So describe the situation because one of the reasons I'm so excited to have you on is, you know, your numbers are where a lot of people really are. You know, they're in the hundreds, not in the thousands. A church that maybe was stuck for a little while and was looking for some renewal. I mean, that's the majority of the audience, the people who listen to this podcast, regardless of denomination and so on. So it's always just so inspiring to hear stories like this. So describe the situation as you began leadership at Calvary two years ago, both for you as a leader and for them as a church. Yeah. For me as a leader, it was a super kind of crazy adventure, you know, was on staff at a phenomenal church, but kind of felt that prodding from God that maybe it was a new season and that. The dream I had of what a church could be was time for me to step into some of that. So I had a great opportunity and met with the board from this church. And the board here is amazing. I've got five guys on our board and they hired with the intentionality of wanting to be a church that was going to impact this community. The DNA of our church has always been about reaching community. One of the questions I asked early on was, you know, what was your, what's your favorite memory from this church? You know, what do you think is the best thing this church has done over the years? And they all talked about outreach programs that they had ran. And so that gave me a hint that this church was really about reaching community, reaching those who were far from God. And so they were eager. I don't know how they hired me, because honestly, Kerry, I should have failed the interview. I walked in, you know, they were all proud of their building and everything else. Like, so what do you think? And foolish, I was like, well, honestly, if I was the lead pastor, I'd knock out that wall. I'd take out this wall. This place feels really uncomfortable. It feels churchy, you know, and just laid it out really quickly. Took a nap and Kerry and drew all over this napkin of like, here's what I would change. And here's what I would do. And I put a place center there and they kind of just, you know, the draws dropped. And then I realized after that's probably not the way to get a church. But you didn't know, because you'd never done it before. This is my first interview for lead pastor. So I'm like, well, you know what, I'm going to put it all out there. They're going to know who I am. They're going to hire, you know. And so, and the building wasn't that old, was it? It was Kerry, it was 10 years old. But you know how, how, how was church leaders do things, right? It was built only 10 years old, but built 30 years in, in its, in its practicality or, or its style. And, you know, I'm not sure everyone would agree with me on that philosophy. But in my perspective, But it felt older than a decade. It felt churchy. It felt, you know, the beautiful thing was though, everything was construction white. They didn't, other than the pink, they were obsessed with pink. Oh, wow. It was pink and white. Those were, those were the colors that we, we were blessed with. So that's really well said, pink and white. Okay, yeah, pink is a churchy color. I don't know why I keep surfacing in churches, but it does. And green, dusty green. Dusty green, those are those. Yes. I think they were big in the 80s. So anyway, how long have the congregation been around those? So the building is a decade old. Church is about 90 years. It's got, it has a great history through the congregation. The church was about 275 people on my, that first weekend. That's where they were sitting. Okay, so weekend attendance, that includes kids and everybody, 275. Yeah, pregnant women counted twice because, you know, life starts at conception. So we, yeah, it was, it was, well, 275 are the thing is for us, the community average age, according to Stats Canada, was 39.9 years old. So a young community, right? And so again, when I preached the call here with how it works for us, is you got to step in, preach a call on the congregation votes as to whether they want you. I just, and laid it all out, laid out that, you know what? Show them the stats of churches that are closing in Canada. I personally, one of the churches I got saved at no longer exists. Oh, wow. So talked about, you know, churches are closing. This is why they're not being engaged with their community. If we want to engage our community, then, you know, we've got to be a church that the average age in our church is 39. Because if we're not doing that, then we're not reaching our community. And therefore, we're only growing by births in a small little bit. We got to reach our community, which means we got to be a church that's young. We got to be a church that goes after the young, goes after that young family, that culture. And do it in a way that they would feel comfortable, not us. And so what was the average age of your church estimated when you got there? I'm not 100% sure. I didn't really have stats at that. Yeah, but it wouldn't have been, you don't think it was 39? No, it wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't 29. No, it was going the other direction, which is not bad. Just wasn't reflective of the community that we were. So a lot of empty nesters, some seniors, a few young families, and not a whole lot of others. Not a whole lot of others. And the church went through a long transition period. So the church was in kind of a maintenance mode, where it was operating, it was running, but not at its full potential for the last little while because of the transitionals. And was that as big as it ever was, or did it have glory days where there were like 500 people 20, 30 years ago? It's funny. You depend on who you talk to, right? You talk to the staff and they'd say, "Well, yeah, we were both 300." You talk to other people like, "Oh, we're a church of 700," you know? Okay. You don't really know. So we go by butts and seeds here when we talk about numbers at our church, where I'm really adamant about this is how many butts are in seeds on an average Sunday, not how many call the church home or whatever else. So you laid it on the line when they hired you, which is probably not a bad idea, you know, from a strategy standpoint? I, you know what, this is my first position. I didn't want to be a flash in the pan and burn out. And I've heard so many guys talk about, you know, we, I went in. I had all these ideas, but I played the political game was real safe. And then three years later, they were, you know, frustrated, burnt, upset, that things that have turned out the way. So I thought, you know what? Well, before I come, they may as well know who I am, right? They may as well know what my heartbeat is. They may as well know what the drive is, what they're getting. I wasn't going to, I figured, I had a great church. You know, my senior pastor wasn't kicking me out the door. He wanted me to stay. So I figured I'd better off laying out, this is who Jeff Price is. This is my heartbeat. I'm evangelistically driven. I'm about church growth. I'm about reaching a community. And if that's not where you want to be, then let's, let's be real about that. And let's, and they were, they, I got voted in a hundred percent. So. Wow. Yeah. So they were pretty excited. It was funny. I preached in jeans and, and then I just before I even walked up on the platform, I had five people say, you're in jeans on voting for you. Yes, already. I didn't even know. I don't know if your just still didn't wear jeans. I was like, yeah, you didn't already better, right? So I made my first change before I even was on staff at the church. So I. Oh man. That was great. Yeah. So that, I can, I can see that too, because otherwise you end up in a bait and switch, right? Where you're being polite and they're being polite. And then your true color show six months, a year, two years down the road, you frustrate them, they frustrate you. And it's better to see exactly what you're getting. I actually think that's a really good strategy. Well, I also think, you know, looking to the secular world, when you hire a CEO of a company that may not be succeeding at the potential that they want, they hire that CEO with the intention coming in and making changes, right? They're saying we recognize our, you know, no, it's not this different in the church world, because they didn't release the senior pastor before me. But, but they recognize, hey, you know what, we're, we need change here. And so I was, I figured I'll take the, the page out of the secular world and just say, this is who I am. And this is the changes we're going to do. And let's see what happens. And they bought into it. Yeah, that's great. When you have it up front, that's, that's a really good idea. So what was the most frustrating thing for you when you first arrived? Like first few months, what, because there's always surprises, right? But what, what started to get under your skin? Well, truthfully, Kerry, I pull triggers so fast that, that, well, this was, I show up my first board meeting and my board literally looks at me first board meeting. So I'm, I mean, I've been there three weeks. And like, so when are we taking up the loan and making the changes? Really? Yes. So I was like, okay. So I came back to my second board meeting with a proposal of, I think it's going to cost about $200,000. These are the changes I want to make. And so they took your like, rip down that wall, paint that pink seriously. They took it very seriously. And with the, I was there under two, under three months and called a congregational meeting and proposed a $200,000 renovation to our facilities and got a 97% vote. Yes. Wow. It ended up being 250, but people really bought into, so my first little bit, there wasn't much frustration because it was just, man, I didn't know what I was doing. They didn't know what they were getting. And we were in construction mode and full throttle, full throttle. Okay. Well, where did, I want to come back to the, your, your first decision to, to actually change the building and why you did that. But before we go there, so when did you start to get frustrated? When did the, the honeymoon, you know, you kind of realize, oh, we're married. Well, I'm only two years in. So I'm still in the honeymoon. Yeah, still in the honeymoon. I think for me, the, the couple of things that, that were just kind of finances is always a, a new world, if you're not, have been a lead pass before. Yeah, it is different. You just feel that at a different level. Don't you? Well, and you see it at a different level. For the first time, the, you know, all the parameters are off and I'm looking, and I'm the one responsible for making sure this thing doesn't go under, right? So finances and dealing with that world, dealing with the, the issue of, not having enough and, and being willing to make big investments, even though I meant financially, not having it there, but making, stepping on faith that if, you know, we do this, we'll see growth and we're going to invest now for a future. And so that, that was a big, the tension, a dynamic tension that I had to constantly be wrestling with inside our thing. The other dynamic tension, I think that constantly was just kind of the wise of any change we made. We made so many changes, not just the building, but the style of our experience, the language that we use, the heartbeat of all these things, living and, and knowing that we don't want to just do it because we want to be the cool hip church in town, but because we actually had a purpose, we find all of the changes that made, right? We, we knew we were making these changes because we were trying to reach people for, for God. And so, but, you know, you're constantly challenged in that when you're making these changes that seem to be the cool hip things to do. People will, will kind of like, ah, you're just doing this to be the cool young guy. So you can be on Kerry's podcast. There you go. So you had, you froze up there for just a quick second with our, our video interview. But I think what you were saying is you had to explain the why behind the what, right? The why a lot, a lot. Yeah. So it wasn't just, hey, this building is going to bring automatic growth. It's like, no, explain why we're doing that. The building for me was just a, a symptom of who we really are in sense. You know, the building wasn't what's going to draw people. The building was going to allow people to hear who we are a little bit better. Is that why you started with the building right away? Like, was it that bad? I mean, I don't want to offend anybody because somebody who, who's still alive designed it. But, you know, probably, I would just say that the building itself didn't reflect the heartbeat of what we wanted to be. Gotcha. So that's why you started there. Yeah, I figured if we start with the cosmetic, it will create a level of energy with people. And, and we would be able to stir up a bit of excitement over this new, new facility, while at the same time, making all the other changes we're making with staffing and everything else, it, it allowed us to kind of have a focal point. I also do, you know, this is where I'm a dipper than a lot of leaders. I believe that everything makes a statement. I believe that the small and the large changes you make make big statements. And I'm afraid that sometimes you see these churches that try to do certain things, but it's inconsistent. And therefore, people who are walking in see that inconsistencies, they go out, you know, and a person who's far from God doesn't necessarily go, oh, I get what you're doing. They're like, I don't get what you're doing. You've got this really creative spot here. And then you've got, you know, a shrine over here. Like, these are, these don't connect. They don't correlate. So we, one of my patients was, we're going to come out and say, this is who we are. We needed our experience, our environment, our talk, our staff. Our board, our, everyone had to be in the same vein of thought that everything was making the same statement constantly over and over and over again. So that a person who was new, a person who was far from God could go, this just makes sense because it's all streamlined. So that's why the building was a big thing. Yeah. So the principle is, is really, maybe you could call it consistency or something like that, that our vision and our minds, like there you go. You have a great teacher. Well, thank you. Yeah, actually, Jeff and I were at the same conference, the Create Conference in St. Catherine's, which is held every June at your former church, central community church. And I was just going to use that as an example. I've, I've known Bill, your former senior pastor for a few years now, but that was the first time I was ever at central. And I was blown away. I mean, this is a church of a couple thousand here in Canada, which is very unique, very rare. You don't have a lot of those. And I mean, central is basically a whole bunch of church editions, probably from what the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, low ceilings in the foyer, foyer, you know, the A-frame auditorium. So what really impressed me was, you know, Bill and the team didn't use the building as an excuse. And now they're in a, I think, a $19 million campaign or something like that for a new building. It's crazy. But, you know, you can, you can do it on a dime and, and they made some really good changes. I mean, their vision and mission was very clear, but it's not like they had spent millions and millions of dollars fixing it before they expanded. I mean, you know, it can be a simple matter of lipstick or a few coats of paint, right? That is, you know, really, that's, we spent money, but most of that was spent for us and building a cafe that rescues girls from sex slavery and a big huge place. And the rest of it, we just knocked down walls and painted everything. Okay, you just, you just said something really interesting. You built a cafe and the proceeds go to rescuing girls from sex slavery. Yeah. So for me, I mean, I have a huge mission outreach, you know, reaching those who are in the heartbeat. And our church, we was of the style that used to be where we'll do the worship. And then they stopped for a 10 minute coffee break that ended up being 20 minutes and it was like brutal. And if you have that in your church, I'm sorry, but it was just such a disconnect for where we were trying to go. And really visitors, I meant, felt it was the most loneliest time, because they realized that they weren't connected at that point, right? So that's very true. So to cut that, I built this big, beautiful cafe. We have a slushy machine carry in our church. It's awesome. I'm telling you that we're known as the church with a slushy machine. But we got a slushy machine in this whole big cafe, but we built it around this concept of all the proceeds go towards reaching rescuing girls from sex slavery in Calcutta, India. And so we've been able to stand on our radio station and talk about this organization. We support in Calcutta. We've been able to do some different fundraisers and bring attention to a really an issue that is massive in our culture today of human trafficking. Well, that is huge. And that's admirable. Did you get a lot of pushback from people when you cut out the, quote, fellowship time or whatever they call it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. We got cut back on while we went from free coffee to now you're charged with a copy. We went from, you know, it's not a friendly church anymore. We went from the classic scripture of Jesus turned over the money makers in the law. And so there was all the classics. But again, the heartbeat for us was, one, we wanted to be an inclusive place. And so that spot was to go to, it was hard to have a presence driven connection, passionate expression of worship and preaching when you put this large break in the middle. And three, we wanted to do something to make a difference around the world. Okay, you just you just blew by some stuff that would terrify a lot of leaders. You're like, Oh, yeah, we got the usual, you know, now, you know, we're the money changers and, you know, now we're not a church that fellowship. So you got some pushback. Walk us through that. How did you handle that? How did that feel for you as a leader? And what did you do to get to the other side of it? Because I know a lot of leaders that would just freeze them in their tracks. And there we go, I'm sorry, we're not going to build it or we'll compromise or we'll have the fellowship hour and the cafe, but it's free to members and, you know, not free to outsiders or wait, it's free to outsiders, but not freedom. You see what I mean? Like, but you just you just went ahead. So walk us through that. Well, again, I've had great mentors in my life and I believe in the need for mentorship and I talk to these guys. And one of the mentors really put this idea in my head earlier in my ministry was you've got to choose who you lose. And and the it just, you know, hit on with my passion for those who are far from God with my passion for that we're going to create an experience that those who are far from God who are 39 years old in our community are going to want to come here. We had to be willing to say to some people, you know what, you love Jesus, that's great. You're going to I'm going to meet you in heaven. We're just not going to be at the same church together. And I'm sorry. You know, you I've got to choose that I'm going to lose you because you're going to make it so that the person on the street who we may be their only chance, I can't lose them. We may be the only expression of church inside our community that they will get. And so I've got to choose to let them come here and let you go somewhere else, you know, and I know that's really harsh. And I got a lot of flack from other leaders when I have these kind of conversations and they don't get it. But for me, I had to look at some big donors and some big leaders and export members and all of those kind of people and let them go. And did they leave? Did they leave? They left. Right. And did you have one on one conversations with few of them? Most of them? Some some would walk away. Well, you know, you hear about it. You know, the church on the road was sent me the letter, Hey, we're really excited. This big giver is coming to our church. Thanks so much for doing what you're doing. Yeah, we're glad you came. Yeah, I'm building the kingdom anyway. I can. But yeah, most of them, I would sit down and just say, look, this isn't I would explain to them over and over and over again. This is the heartbeat about why we're doing that there. This isn't just to be cool. We were, you know, I have a neighborhood outside my office. You can see a whole neighborhood. I'm like, we've got to reach them. You know, stats are saying that that so many of those people are outside of the will of God. And man, you and I know God, don't we need to lay that down so that they can come in and and stop worrying about style and worry more about what God's doing. And you know, at the end of the day, we just said, well, then we love you. You know, don't ever, you know, walk on the other side of the street when you see me, you know, I'm in this small town of, you know, 40,000 people, we're going to bump at each other, you know, I'll probably play your new church in our baseball league. So, you know, make sure you shake my hand. Like we don't need to be enemies. We're just realizing that we both love Jesus. We're expressing it in different ways. And this is where this church is going. So, it's okay for you to go somewhere else. That's why God created so many different styles of churches so you can find a place, you know, one person I had to remind said, well, you can choose to be here and fight and be angry and then come to church angry and then you'll lose your family, lose your kids and know when your family's going to love Jesus because they're going to say you'd be bitter. And that's what religion will be to them. Or you could choose to go be a church that fits your needs, fits your family and serve there and bless them. That's fascinating. See, that's so good. And how did they respond when you told them that? Some really, really some, you know, embraced and hugged and see them at different church events. And some, you know, I'm the devil, but I can live with that. I had many, many conversations like that over the years with people. And so, I don't meet a lot of leaders who have those conversations. And at the end of the day, I think you have that fear of losing people. But in fact, you have, you know, you lost a few, but you gained quite a few. So it started at 275 and a little under two years into it. Now, now how many come? Our butts and seats are between 380 and 410 every single Sunday. Wow. So that's like over 50% growth in the last two years. It's been exciting. Yeah. I mean, it's, we're tracking everything, of course, with all the different softwares and whatnot. But you know what, to back on that one last point, one of the big things for me, you know, that I had a concert, it's easy for me with no relationships to let people go. It's sometimes when, you know, export members are walking away, not that they were a part of my leadership, but people who served on the board are leaving. And I'm realizing I'm ripping other relationships, you know. So let's drill down on that. You know, and I don't think I've ever had a conversation with someone, but that's what happened to me too. In the first three or four years, we lost a lot of people. We gained far more than we lost, but that's what clear vision is going to do. It ultimately is going to be divisive before it unites. But, you know, I never really thought about that. Yeah, they had lost their friends that they might have worshiped with for 10 or 15 years. So what was that like? A lot of dark, dark nights sitting in a cupboard crying. No, just looking at us. Again, you know, there was a lot of times for me where I had to go before God. So God, you know, just because as leaders, I laugh, I tell my staff and my kind, you know, I step up and say, this is what God has said. And then I go home with Amber, do you think I've really said that? I hope he really said that. I feel that's what he really said. And then you wrestle with it as you're trying to do these crazy audacious dreams, right? You just kind of go, it's not like God really spoke to us. We just have these impressions or whatever, depending on your theology, I guess. But for me, when I had some of those key people, you know, and we didn't lose a lot. I want to be really clear. Our church is really on board with it. I lost maybe 10, 15 families. But when those key ones left, not because of the money, because that was an issue to my trust, God, to be big enough. But the issue was the relationship. And it sent me to my knees to go, okay, am I, am I really hearing from you, God? Am I really on board? Because, you know, this is a big, I'm choosing to lose a person who served here for years over the hopes that somebody will come in here and find Jesus. And is this your heartbeat? Is this right? Am I doing the right thing? You know, and kept coming back to the vision, kept coming back to the heartbeat of what we are as a church, kept coming back to who Jeff Price is. And I couldn't, I couldn't rightfully sacrifice those things to keep an individual happy without feeling like I would be hypocritical or not walking in what God had done, and then place trust in man and let man build this thing rather than God. And I just had to love that. You know, I wrote a book a few years ago called leading change without losing it. And every time I talk to a leader like you, I know the number I kind of picked is like no more than 10% are opposed to any change, but it is amazing. Like rarely is it above 10% and yet 10 or 15 families out of probably what 150, 200 families total who walked away. That's 5% less. Like that's huge. And that was a big wake up call for me. I had one of those moments where I sat back and I actually wrote the numbers down, right? Good for you. You didn't mean I'm like, well, that's what I said. It's a, wow, this is a such a small segment. And then I started doing the history of going, you know what, these people haven't been happy for years. It's not just you. Right. So what am I fighting for? So, you know, and I know that they're loud. And again, I don't want to paint this picture because 95% of my church was like, this is the most amazing thing in the world. My board never wavered for a second. Never wavered for a second, you know. So I was blessed in that sense, you know, not everybody maybe has that, but I was blessed in that sense. And it literally, yeah, I came to a spot where I said, you know what, I got to stop losing sleep over people who are such a small because, you know, you're never going to win. I read your book. There's another book. I really wish I remember the name about basically the same idea of churches that are, you know, guys will hold on to visions and it dwindles. And then after five, 10 years, it's explosive. And it's they're happy they push through those difficult times. I mean, do you see it through the Bible so often? So just like, you know what, this is who we are. And I had to have that kind of doesn't mean it still doesn't, you know, when you get the email from somebody where, but at the end of the day, our board, our staff, my heartbeat, we're so driven by the fact that there are people literally who we may be the only church for because we have the style. And that matters. And so there's really good churches in my community. So let's bless them. So we'll link to my book in the show notes. And then if you happen to remember the name of the other book, because I'd love to see it too, even after, we'll, if you find it, we'll link to that in the show notes to it'll all be in the show notes. So let me ask you this, because I'm picking up a picture just, you know, we've been talking for 25 minutes or so. I'm picking up a picture of you. You've got an evangelistic heart. But did that hurt you when, when like, did you go through some turmoil? You mentioned you had to pray about it, you lost a bit of sleep. Like, was that a really difficult period? Because I think people like pastors with shepherds hearts, people who really have a lot of empathy or sensitivity, they feel that more. And I don't like it with, you know, I just don't really feel it when people are like, I'm mad at you. I'm like, okay, my, my wife and I joke around that compassion was the gift that I did not get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so, yeah, I mean, did I feel it? Yeah, because I think that I'm a person too that I want in my past, I've been accused of railroading because I'm such a strong visionary. I've been accused by people sometimes of being really aggressive. And so I'm always sensitive to that. So when I talk about staying up at night, those are one, maybe two nights where I'm wrestling with is what I'm doing. Jeff Price's aggressive personality, or is it that this is God? And I've actually even, to be honest with you, you know, this is like confession hour. Wow. It's like, I'm talking, I'm talking to Oprah. Sure. For me, one of the things I had to come to grips with is God gave me my personality. And I'm a leader. And sometimes I'm not saying there's things that we can't knock out of us that we need to have knock of us. But I've also rose that God puts some tenacity inside me that only I am called to do, right? And so embrace that, you know? I think that's really good. And I think, you know, as a guy who also compassion is not my in the top mix of my gift set for sure. There are times where that is actually sin, where I need to be compassionate and I'm not compassionate and I need to confess that. And I need to say I'm sorry. But then there are other times where no, actually, that's a strength and an advantage. And it doesn't mean I'm not excused from caring for that person from praying for that person. But it just means I can't let my emotional wound or my sensitivity get in the way of a vision or mission. And I think that's my, again, because everything for me about it is about that alignment principle. Everything for me is about everything makes it. And because I'm driven by the fact that I want to see our community impacted by Jesus, I want to see that happen. So that's how I know I'm being authentic to what who I'm called to be. If it was just arrogance of this, my way of the highway, because I like the color gray rather than pink, then that's stupid. But because I'm like- That's not going to last long either. I mean, people will get frustrated with you and they'll eventually fire you. Well, and you see guys like that move on quick often, right themselves because they're, and I want, I had another great mentor who said, you know what, anyone can change a building. You've got to be impacting lives, right? And so that's, again, for me, everything is based out of that, right? So we do some crazy things and, you know, in our church, our church again, I got is binding to what I'm going to tell you, we packed out our hockey arena here in town for our Easter service. That's amazing. Never been done in our city before. We don't have, you know, we're 40,000 people. No one comes. No, no artists is coming to rock out the arena here in town, you know? So we took a gamble and the mayor comes to our church now. And so we talked to him about this crazy dream and we rented a hockey arena. And we had, we took over the city's Easter egg hunt. We had 3,000 people come out to our Easter egg hunt and 1,000, 1,150 come out to our Easter service. But what's exciting about it was a $20,000 a day. And we didn't do one bit of it out of budget. We went to our church and just said, here's a dream. You know what, we have so long to make it a positive. We get the money to make the deposit, then we're going to move forward and see what happens. And within a month, we raised $19,000 in the city kicked in a little bit of money to help with the Easter egg hunt. So it was, I mean, mind blowing. It's huge. So you saw over 1,000 people at Easter, you rented out the hockey arena, which is awesome. And I mean, and it's down that size, you're not talking 20,000 seats, but, you know, you've filled the floor and all that stuff, which is awesome. And so that's great. Now, I think change happens when people become discontent with the status quo, right? Can't stand anymore. Got to change. How did you? So the board and you sounded like you were on the same page on day one. How did you raise the level of discontent with the wider church? Obviously, you did it well enough to make some people leave. I mean, that sounds funny, but that's actually, that's actually what happens, right? They felt the heat go up, they got out of the kitchen. But how did you do that? How did you raise the level of discontent with the status quo across the boards? Yeah, you know what, the word I used a lot was that we had to, we had to awaken people to the crisis that was happening. Right. That's how I talked with my staff a lot. You know, we talked to all the illustrations you can talk about about, you know, boiling water and a frog and boiling water and how complacency slowly creeps into an environment. And we talked about all those different things, but what we really pushed a lot was we're in crisis. You know, there's one, I believe, now this is a theological belief in mind that the church is called to evangelize, I believe that Sunday mornings are our biggest opportunity to preach the name of Jesus and to impact those so far from God. So that is a standpoint that I do sit on that side. And so, so we talked about, man, if we don't do this, like, where are the stands? So I preached a lot carry about vision. I mean, literally, first, my first year, all I did was preach vision and talked about, you know, souls and laid out the heartbeat of who we are and why and laid at the heartbeat of Jesus and did all the famous quotes of, you know, all these different guys and what history was in the book of Acts. And we did a sermon series on, you know, what the church is, we did sermon series on doctrine, we did sermon series on beach head with all these crazy sermon series built around the fact is that there is a role that we have. And that is to impact our community. And here's the hard question. I mean, I remember one service I picked up, you know, ahead of time, I was always playing, but had held in my arms a three month old baby. I said, are we going to let this girl grow up in this church and love Jesus for entire life? Are we just going to let her be here while she's, you know, forced to come by mom and dad? Because if we're going to have the church for her, we need to be thinking now what we're building and what that's going to look like because culture has changed, culture has shifted. So is vision, vision, vision, vision, vision, vision. And crisis, vision and crisis. Hey, this is who we're called to be. Are we being that person? This is what the vision is. Are we going to go for it? Are we going to sit? And again, I have histories of being on place where, man, I'm sure we all do. I'm sure we all have churches that we've worked at where and then you felt like we were right there. And then some decision squashed us from being able to move forward. And I just declared if I was a lead pastor, I will do my best that I can to create an urgency and started people that says, we got to lay it all in the line. And so a big talk for us was constantly like, are we willing to move far? Are we willing to lay this on the line? We, I talk a lot about, are we going to leverage our resources, our finances, our building, our personalities so that those who are far from God will choose Jesus? And if not, then you got to really wrestle with the scriptures about what you're called to do. Well, that's good. You know, Nancy Duarte wrote a book a few years ago, the title escapes me right now. We'll link to it in the show notes, but she talks about that being what you're describing, discontent vision, discontent crisis vision, being at the very heart of all great communication from Martin Luther King's, I have a dream speech to Ronald Reagan to others who are basically, this is the way it is now and it's not good, but here's what it could be. And this is not the way it is now, but here's what it could be. And she says that is a pattern that really resonates with people. So as a device to bring about change, that's, that's really good. Did you do something beyond Sunday morning to kind of raise the level of discontent and talk about the crisis? How about a few things we, I started a, we called a men's group called armor bears. So I invited 40 men to come and I thought, you know, a big hobby of our church is I want to reach kids and I want to reach men's. We work really hard on everything about our church is very guy. My women actually are so frustrated with me because we do big dad fest events and all this stuff around guy, we have guy golf games, guy baseball teams and the women, you know, but I can tell if you've got, if your men love Jesus, then your family will and it's, it's, it's good. So we invested. So we did a leadership thing where I invited 40 men around tables and I took us on a four month journey of just same thing, but I did, it was on Tuesday nights and we did a 30 day prayer devotional that I wrote up with Bill Markham. Actually, he did it as well. So we put that together and we handed out to our people and we took them on a journey of through the gospels. What was the heartbeat of Jesus and what was his heartbeat? And then we came back after that 30 days and we did small group discussions around tables is okay. Well, what would you say if those is the heartbeat of Jesus, what would you say is the heartbeat of our church? Are they lining up? What areas need to change? What are the best things we've done? What are the worst things we've done? How we felt? How does this not line up with what we're now said our vision is? And I took people on a 40 key leaders in our church, men in our church, on this journey of wrestling with, are we doing what Jesus would have done? And it was, it was an amazing, amazing, fun experience for our guys. That's huge. By the way, the book is called resonate. Nancy Duarte resonate. So there, you know, you're doing what all the great people did. So it was vision casting in a smaller setting, in a larger setting, and in a way went. Yeah. And again, allowing them to feel, you know, I've learned early on that if you can help people own that burden, and then you can help them come up with ideas, then, you know, so some of the cool stuff we do have been coming out of, came out of those first initial meetings with those 40 guys and pushed that. So let's go. So the board said they want to change, but did they really, like did you run into disconnects at a certain point or not maybe specifically with the board, but just, you know, the people who said, yeah, we want to change when they got knee deep into it, did you start to get pushed back? Well, I laugh. I got voted in to be the preacher for at 100%, but at the same time, a week later, got an email. I wasn't even on, I wasn't even here. I just got voted in, and it got an email complaining about me. So I got voted at 100%, but was also because I wore, they called a gardening clothes to preach. They were upset. They were upset when these clothes. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, you know, as far as my board, I got great guys who love Jesus and have a, the previous leader before me really built a healthy concept that the board is there to protect the vision that God has for the church. And that comes from the senior pastor, the lead pastor. And so they don't operate from a, this is our church.yours. They operate with the pastor, you've got the vision, you've got the dream. Now, how do we serve that? You know, so how do we protect it financially? How do we protect it with our governance? How do we protect it with our policies and systems? And so that's where they, that's where they come from. So they, they were ecstatic. And when you have this ups and downs, and when we went over budget on our, on our building and financially, like I said, we, we have a lot of beautiful stuff and a great staff, but we are then to that line, you know, we, we don't have money to spare at all. So there's some stressors there that are, you know, sort of constantly rustling with, you know what, God, you know, our God is on our budget, God sets our budget and we can trust him. And so there's some there that constant, they would love me to be a little bit more conservative on some things, as far as financially. And then other things, we're just like, you know, what we're, we're going. And, and they've bought into that. They really have. And so I, and that's where I know, I mean, I'm blessed, you know, a lot of leaders don't necessarily have that freedom that. Yeah. But also to your credit, I mean, you made sure there was a connection at the very beginning. You didn't hide any cards. And then when they gave you a mandate, you ran with it. There's a lot of people who have permission and they don't do anything with it. And I think that can be a big mistake. So sure. Let me ask you, what has been the hardest part of these first two years for you as you sort of lead on your own, lead on your own and lead your church through pretty radical change? I mean, obviously the finances is the biggest, because I don't know how these churches get money. That's why I'm like, how do these guys have bank accounts? The dollar comes in, we're spending it. We're trying to make it out. Yeah. We have so much vision. There's just not enough money to fulfill it. So navigating that, because this is just a new world as a lead pastor. The other one too is really being intentional about building relationships with other leaders who have been where you've been. So I've had to fight really hard to go, you know what? If I want to be a church of 1500, I got to get to know some of these guys who are leading churches at that and doing that. So those have been kind of, because it's easy in leadership, I think, to fall into a silo where you're all by yourself, because it used to be we had a senior pastor, or when I was a staff pastor, I had someone to go to when I had confusion, right? I had, who would just tell me the right way to do something, right? Now I'm on my own. And so I've worked hard to make sure I'm not on my own. Well, and I think it's a really good point, because I think, Jeff, you know, your skill set, if it's probably been strong enough that you could go from, you know, 275 to 400 to just over 400 and might be strong enough on your own that you could even grow it to 600 or 800. But there comes a point where all of us kind of reach a lid. And we're like, Oh, yeah, I, you know, I got it to 200 or I got it to 400. I got it to 600. But we have to develop a skill set that's going to take it beyond that. And we don't really know when we hit the ceiling until we hit the ceiling. For me, it was about 800. And it took us a while to push through that. And now we're pushing past 1,100 on the weekend. And I think, you know, I don't know that we've cracked that code, but we feel like we're ready for 1,500 at this point. But I mean, that's been a lot of learned behavior because my natural, you know, gunslinging tendencies got us so far, but they couldn't take us as far as I think God wants us to go. Well, and I, and that's I don't want to be a limiting factor. And so that's something I mean, for me, I get said earlier on mentorship is big, but I would love to point out that it's something I had to really fight for. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about that. How did you have to fight for it? Well, I had to call people. I had no idea who they were that had big churches. And I'm like, Hey, I'm, you know, Jeff, I'm in this tiny little church over here in this small little community. Can I pay for you for lunch and just pick your brain? And would you tell me when we'll work for you? And I'll be there. Like I get that your schedule is really important. So let me let me do that. And you know, some are like, ah, you seem really weird and you know, shy to wait for me. And others like, you know what? Pretty much. Let's do it. Right. And then how to be intentional with making those connections over and over and over again and fighting to not just get lost in my own little world, but really fight for these guys' voices. Because then I go with, you know, 15, 20 questions and I'm ready to go ready to take you up for lunch anytime, Gary. That'd be great. That'd be great, Jeff. But you know, that's smart. Because first of all, you asked and you deferred. And I mean, I'm not a big church pastor, but I get those requests on a regular basis. And I wish I could do more in that area. That's kind of why I do the podcast and write the blog and all that stuff. But when you show up prepared and you bring 15 or 20 questions, sometimes I got into those lunches. And it's like, so what's new with you? It's kind of like, I was hoping to get peppered with a whole bunch of questions. Like that would be good. People don't come prepared than you're wasting every waste time. I just kind of recognize like, I like you or these other guys I've gone to. I recognize that they're changing the world. They're busy. I've wasted leaders times. There's times where I've asked for that, and I've shown up unprepared and, you know, it's not, it's not good. So that's good. But the other thing you did that I think is really good is you actually met you first of all, you recognized it, but then you prioritized it. I'm sure you're busy enough that, you know, some of that bled into personal time where you had to put something else aside, but good on you. And isolation is a big problem with pastors for sure. Anything else that's been a challenge for you as you sort of navigated all this personally or vocationally? Really, I think it's just for me knowing, I guess the other big one is always just knowing that I'm in line with where God is going. Because I'm such a vision-driven individual and can be strong, I'm always trying to make sure I'm walking in step with God and not forcing, you know, to knock open a door that that wasn't supposed to be open. How do you do that? I don't know. I pray a lot. And again, I have mentors in my life that I will run things by and say, man, give me, you know, they know me. So they know I'm a guy who's not going to wait six, you know, I'm not going to wait six years to make something happen. I'm always going to be faster than that. But I go to mentors. I've spent a lot of time in prayer. My wife is a concept to me in that. And, you know, but truth be told, I've also say a lot to our teams. I'd rather fail trying to do something audacious for God and pastor my people through it than to fear not do something and miss out on what God wanted to do. That's an awesome way of thinking about it. I used to say it and still say it a lot less eloquently. I just want to go broke trying. You know, like, if we're going to go broke, let's go broke trying. Let's just give it a shot. What do you think has been the hardest part for the congregation, Jeff? I think, you know, truth be told, I think the couple different, depending who you talk to, I think for some, the rapidness, right? I've only been here two and a half years and yeah, and man, we're rapid. Like when you think two and a half years, we changed everything. So you changed like the music, you changed the staffing, you changed every building, everything. There other than the parking lot, I didn't have enough money to change that. Other than the parking lot, there is and the outside brick and mortar, there's nothing I didn't change. There's not a wall, I didn't change, there's not a floor, I didn't change, there's not a music style, dress style. I mean, we changed everything from worship, you know, from a worship perspective, man, we went obviously young and creative in our worship perspective, but also went very passionate. I believe right now passionate worship really connects with people, you know, culture, people want to see something that's real. And so we've engaged that and that process. And yeah, there, you know, because it's not just been the brick and mortar and the physical, it's been everything. So they don't really recognize their church anymore after two and a half years. They don't, they don't. And so I think that the quickness of that has, you know, because some people are like, wow, you're supposed to come in and be nice for a year and then slowly implement little things here and there. And then we didn't do that. We, we changed now, we're on our second wave like, okay, what needs to change now? It's been two years, like let's do it again. So let's back up. Do you think they're right? Do you think you should have been polite for a year? Do you have any regrets? No, I like again, from me, I think, again, when you look at secular organizations, a CEO comes in and he makes changes, because there's the statement that you were in default or whatever, and, and to get us to the next level, we've hired you to bring us to the next level, make the changes you see need to be the leader to lead freely to bring to bring. Right. And that goes back to your belief that the church was in crisis, even though, you know, it wasn't going to close its doors anytime soon. When you have 40,000 people and 90% of them don't go to church and your church has an opportunity to speak into that. That's crisis. Yeah. So I mean, I personally, I think, to be honest, they, I had one person say this, I think it summed it up perfectly when it came to the building change. They said, you know, we just voted you in at 100%. And now you throw out this big, huge vision. What choice do we have but to say yes to this one too, because if not, then we shouldn't have voted yes for you. So like, Hey, I'm early enough. You didn't know not to. So that's great. Let's just do it. That's cool. Yeah. So for me, I don't think it was a mistake to do it fast. I had to do a lot. I mean, I probably cost me a lot more of conversations and what I had to preach and all those different things in order to make sure I didn't do people. But I'll tell you, there's nothing more powerful than what I got to see happen was when people who were a little bit frustrated with it, their kids started coming back to church, right? And their grandkids started coming to our church. And so all of a sudden now when I've got some of these key fans, like, well, it's moving too fast, but then they're looking across the aisle and there's their family sitting there, the pastor, man, we're, we're with you, you know, when we start telling stories in our team meetings about people who would never have walked in the door of a church. And, and I do that in our teammates, I talk stories of people who are choosing Jesus all the time. So it's hard to argue, right? So, it was fast, but I wouldn't have another way because now my grandkids sitting in church or my sons sitting in church or, or now this family over here that would never have been here, they're now here and they're serving on our volunteer teams. And, and so it's hard to argue with, with that. So, I would have done it probably the same way. That's just me. So knowing that you're vision driven, knowing that you really don't have a strong gift of compassion, which I totally understand. Everybody's wired a little bit differently and that doesn't mean, you know, you're a mean person or anything. I do love people. I do. Absolutely. That's why we're doing what we're doing. Right on. But what advice would you give to a leader who's just starting out and wants to initiate change? First, be true to you. Know who you are and don't, don't try to do something because it worked with somebody else or don't try to do something because it's what the big churches are doing. Be true to who you are. If you're, no, no, who got called you to be. And so because for us, so that's one, two, be consistent in your message. When you're going to make change, then be consistent as to why you're making it, be consistent in the changes you're making. Make sure it all lines up. And don't be afraid to tackle those sacred cows because they'll create inconsistencies that will make your vision confusing. If you're willing to fight here, but not there, be consistent in that. Three, choose who you lose. You know, that was a big one for me. Yeah, that's really, really good. Jeff, I think you've encouraged and inspired a lot of people today. People will probably want to learn a little bit more. So what's the easiest way to connect with you online? I mean, there's churches webpage, which is in another revamp because that's one of them like, we can keep changing that. So churches by pages, calvarycw.com. My email is on there at Jeff at calvarycw.com. You can email me there. The church is on Facebook at calvarycw. You can also reach me, person on my Twitter at Jeff price one. You can do that as well. Cool. And I'm sure people will want to and we'll have all those links in the show notes. Jeff, thanks so much. Thanks so much. It's such an honor to be able to sit on your show and to be able to connect with you. Hey, great, great story. I know you've encouraged a lot of people today. All right, thanks so much. So that was a challenging and pretty exciting interview, wasn't it, with Jeff? I love that conversation. And some of you might be thinking, okay, I got to just go home and change everything, right? And maybe you should, or maybe you shouldn't. I mean, some of you are worried you're like, well, if I did that, I'd be at a ministry in six months. I get that. I totally get that. Here's what I would take away from this conversation with Jeff. Obviously, Jeff's personality is a big part of I think why change has been so effective. And you have to be true to your personality. But sometimes we confuse fear and personality. Sometimes we're like, well, that's just not me. But if you really look down inside, you would discover it's not that it's not you. It's just that you're scared. And if you're afraid of change, you need to deal with that. You need to get on your knees. You need to confess that before God, because last thing I want to do is stand before God one day and say, well, you know what, there's a lot you wanted me to do. But I was just scared. So if you're afraid, talk to God about that maybe even talk to a friend about it and then go change something like seriously, seriously, seriously, don't let your fear of change undermine the future of the church. Anyway, that's my little editorial. So Jeff, so encouraging. Thank you. I'm just so excited about what God's doing in your church, what he's doing in your life. And if you want more information, you can find it all on the show notes. That's karaenohoff.com/episode48. And we'd love to hear from you in the show notes as well. All the links will be there. Make sure you go check that out. karaenohoff.com/episode48. Don't miss the orange tour, orangetour.org. If you haven't signed up, do that. And if you haven't subscribed yet to this podcast, that would be super awesome. And you could even share it if it's helped you. A couple other things next week, we are back with a brand new episode. And I've talked about this before on my blog, but I'm so excited to be able to talk about the issue of just the polarization of Christian thought and Christian dialogue. I'm calling the episode Stop the Hate. And my guest is Scott Saul. Scott's written a book about how Christians can get along when they disagree. And if you are sick of your Facebook page, like I am sometimes about all the like strong extreme views that are out there, and you're wondering, how can I have a conversation with somebody I disagree with? That's what we are talking about next week on the podcast. So make sure you don't miss that. That is episode 49 with Scott Saul's Stop the Hate, how Christians can get along when they disagree. So we are back with that. If you subscribe, you won't miss it. And I can't wait to talk to you next Tuesday. I do hope that all of this helps you lead like never before. You've been listening to the karaenohoff leadership podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership change and personal growth. To help you lead like never before. [BLANK_AUDIO]