The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 044 – The Ups and Downs (And Everything in Between) of Starting a Church: An Interview with Jeanne Stevens
Well, hey everybody, and welcome to Episode 44 of the podcast. My name is Kerry Newhoff, and I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. I think you're going to love our guests. Today, we are going to talk to Jeannie Stevens, who's doing some incredible ministry in downtown Chicago. I don't know whether some of you are trying to do urban ministry. I know a lot of churches are moving downtown. There was the flight to the suburbs in the 90s and the 2000s, and maybe even as far back as the 80s. And I mean, that's legit ministry, but a lot of church planters are moving back downtown. And so Jeannie Stevens is going to tell us all about that. The cool part of her story is like some of you might be thinking about maybe quitting a really comfortable job to plant a church or get involved in a church. That is her story. So she and her husband, Jared, were comfortably employed, first at Willow Creek, then at North Point Church, two of the best known large churches on the planet had great jobs, great ministry. God was using them there. But there was this little thing inside that said, Hey, I wonder if we're like called to plant a church. So they left everything comfortable and off they went to plant a church in downtown Chicago. So if you are a church planter or if you thought about planting a church or if you got a really comfortable job and are wondering, Hey, God, are you calling me to do something else? I think you're going to love this interview. So really excited for this today. Hey, I just I just want to take a moment to thank all of you who continue to make this a great journey. Many of you have been leaving reviews lately and every once in a while. I just kind of read one or two. I want to I want to thank, for example, Kyle Adamson. Thanks so much for your review recently on iTunes. I love this one from, I mean, just a username, this crafty mama said, Thank you for information I can actually use and apply. Great job. Keep it going. I listen every Tuesday. Yeah. You know what? Information you can actually use. Isn't that that's what we're trying to do. And if there's ways to make it better, like you just let me know, but we're trying to make this super practical with the show notes and like steps that you can implement. So I really appreciate it. Thanks to M Manny who left a really encouraging review to a pastor, Chris C to David Kahler. David said this has become one of my favorite or actually said this is my favorite leadership podcast. I am a bi vocational pastor and I love the blend of business and church leaders that carry pulls from it also has become the podcast I've easily taken the most action items from this year. Don't listen to this podcast. If you don't want your head to explode with new ideas and things to try. Hey, David, thanks so much and a shout out to all of you who are bivocational. I've never done that. I always think that's got to be challenging and just hats off to you, David and all of you bivocational pastors. I know there are literally thousands who like, you know, this is your volunteer thing or you get paid a little bit, but you've got to work and then work again hats off to you guys. So, thank you so much, L. Owen, thanks for your review, Chad Payne. Really appreciate it. Dotty DC, aim su 26 and Greg Atkinson. Thanks for your reviews recently. They mean a lot. I read every single one of them and it's just great. When you share, when you subscribe, when you leave a rating in a review, it gets our podcast in front of people and there's been a recent spike in traffic like 50% growth and traffic on this podcast. So if we can help more leaders through that, thank you and just a reminder to the orange tours happening this fall. So if you haven't registered yet, just go to orange tour dot org. I'm going to a number of cities. I think 15 cities are covered in total during the orange tour in the United States this fall. Starting in September, going right through to November, it is a great gathering for leaders. Like I said, I'm going to be in eight cities would love to connect with you there personally. So go to orange tour dot org and register and because we're coming to you, it's a great conference to bring your team to as well. So really excited for my conversation with Jeannie Stevens today and why don't we just jump right into that. Well, I am really excited to have Jeannie Stevens on the podcast today, Jeannie. So glad you're here. It is good to be here, Carrie. Thank you so much for inviting me. Well, it's a thrill. We were saying, you know, we always seem to just almost connect at conferences and in green rooms. We are. So we are. Yeah, usually we end up speaking at the same things and then, you know, you're leaving and I'm coming or vice versa, but now we're going to actually get to chat, which is fun. So much for having me and thank you for the gift of your podcast to so many church leaders. You know, our, our director of ops will since to your podcast every single week and always says, this is what I learned from Carrie this week. So we have benefit, we've experienced the benefits of your podcast. So thanks for having me on. Well, cool. It's a thanks for being on. Hey, you had a really interesting journey in ministry, Jeannie, you and your husband, Jared. Tell us a little bit about how God has used you over the years in ministry. Well, I am so grateful for our story, so grateful for our heritage. When I was fresh out of college, I walked into Willow Creek Community Church, a tiny little church in Barrington, not really a tiny little church. And I walked in, Jared and I were engaged at the time. He still had one year left of school and we said, Hey, let's get a great experience. Let's go volunteer at Willow Creek Community Church for, for a year. And let's, let's see what we can learn. And so we walked into their youth ministry, said, do you need any volunteers? And what youth pastor is going to, you know, say no to fresh volunteers and they said absolutely. And that assured us into a story that we never went looking for that has just been a God written story. We started volunteering at Willow. I was 22 years old and that led into an 11 year journey. A few months after volunteering there, I was invited to interview for a staff position. I did that and went on staff and after Jared had graduated from, from college, he went on staff at Willow and we spent 11 years of our life being a part of the Willow Creek Community Church in Barrington, Illinois, and Carrie, I can't even begin to tell you, I felt like every day I got to go to work at Disney World. And it was just an amazing, amazing leadership development opportunity. I felt like I was getting a master's degree and a doctorate degree, all in one and yet getting unbelievable leadership training from, from such an incredible church. So I'm so grateful for our years there. And about 10 years into our time there, we made some really great friendships down at North Point Community Church. We had some similar, you know, just desires for ministry and that led us to a really unexpected move in our life down to Atlanta. And we got to be a part of the North Point Ministries for four years under Andy's leadership. And again, just felt like I got to go to work at Disney World every day when it comes to church work. And it just was amazing to be under such incredible leadership. I hold Andy in such high regard and so grateful for our years there. So grateful for Andy and the staff of North Point. And about three years into our time there, we had this sense that God was inviting us to begin to pray about starting a church. It was kind of one of those quiet prayers that we always wondered along the way. I wonder if we should start a church one day. I'm not sure. And God just disrupted our comfort and invited us into a very courageous calling. And so we both began to pray. We did a lot of discernment and wisdom work, inviting mentors and leaders into our life to see if this really was what we were to do. And you know, Carrie, it got to a point where it wasn't an option for us to start a church. It was obedience. And so we just knew this is what it looks like to obey God. It is to start this church and we went on that journey and told Andy and told the leadership of North Point and said, we love working here. We love everything about working here, but we're going to follow God in how he's leading us and everybody affirmed and was so encouraging and absolutely. And so that was about five years ago, five years ago, we left and moved back to Chicago but moved downtown to the West Loop area, which is very urban and started a soul city church out of our living room. So about 20 people, 20 people came over and we started praying and we had big dreams and big vision and all sorts of hopes and man, our lives have been turned upside down, inside out, backwards, forwards, you name it and I would not change any of it. The journey of starting this church. I tell people all the time, you know, our mission as a church is we want to lead people into a transforming relationship with Jesus and I am the single greatest recipient of that mission. My life has been transformed through this church. So yeah, so that's kind of my background. Well, that's cool. Now we're going to dig into the story of soul city church a little bit, but I got to ask this question because, you know, I think this is what everybody struggles with. You said it was a matter of obedience. How did you know? How did you know that God was actually calling you to start a church rather than just, oh, you know what Chicago is a lot of unchurched people, we should go back and we should start a church there. How do you know it was God? Yeah, because in some ways it didn't make sense. It would have made much more sense to stay at North Point. It was a safe culture. We had great jobs, loved people had just built a home that we enjoyed. We had two small kids, not the best time to start a church. The economy had just tanked and so everything about starting this church would disrupt our comforts and in everything that I read throughout scripture, specifically even the New Testament, that is the invitation of faith is to get out of the boat and to walk on the waters. And I tell people often that, you know, my years at Willow and my years at North Point, I'm so grateful for those 15 years. And I loved Jesus. I was a professional quote unquote Christian, if you will. I mean, I was working in ministry, but carry the day that I started this church, the day that Jared and I started this church, I think I became a real Jesus follower. I think that I experienced what it means to walk on water and it just, you know, I like to tell people that if you ever have a chance in your lifetime to be a part of starting a church, planting a church, you don't have to be the lead pastor of it. In fact, not everybody's called to do that, but to see something like the local church, come out of a living room into an actual organization, an organism of what you don't Jesus intended it to be. There's nothing like it. There's nothing like the local church and there's nothing like seeing a local church planted and then growing and thriving and transforming people's lives. So, so I, that's how I know it was obedience. Okay. So that I couldn't have made up something so grand like that, that was God that did that. So was it like promptings that told you it was going to be Chicago or how did it? It was promptings. It was people confirming, yes, I see this in you, people confirming our spiritual gifts, people confirming our experiences, people confirming that it was so, the calling in the passion was so red hot that if we didn't do it, it would, it would kind of just fester inside of us and then we actually wouldn't be a gift to North Point, which is where we were. Right. And so, yeah, it was, it was just so clear to us that this is what God was calling us to do. Well, and that makes sense. It didn't take an aligned with scripture and you know, I mean, so, yeah. Well, and I think the affirmation of mentors and you have some incredible mentors in your life, but I know that was huge for me when I was considering a call to ministry because I thought I was going to be a lawyer. Like that's what I was training for. That's what I was qualified to do. I was a lawyer and felt this prompting to go to seminary and it was the weirdest thing. And literally it took me two or three years of just praying and processing it. And really at the end of the day, it was, there were enough Godly people in my life who said, no, absolutely, you should do this that I finally went, okay, I will, but okay, that's cool. That's just always one of my questions is, how did you know, if that was God's will, like, how did you know? It's just great. And you know, it's not like, I don't like to picture God's will as a, you know, this magic eight ball, you know, or there's a genie in the bottle or something like that. I think that we had Jared and I not started this church. Would that mean that we're out of God's will? I don't think so. I don't think that's the case. I think that God's story would have gone in at a different direction and he would have, you know, led us towards something else. But for us, I just knew that was a way for me to fully express my obedience and my followership of Jesus was, was to follow the call that he had on our life. And I'm so glad that I did, so glad that I did. So you've worked at a mega church, a couple of, you know, the leading mega churches in, in, in the world, really, and certainly in America and you planted a church now going on five years. What are some of the differences? Well, I don't think I would have been able to plant a church without the learning and the growing opportunities that we had at Willow and North Point. They taught us how to be better leaders, how to be better teachers, how to be better pastors. I am so grateful. I think about who I was when I walked into Willow and that I started a church then as a 23 year old young leader, it would be a very different church. I don't even know if it would still be standing. So I'm so grateful and thankful for all of the learns and the growth opportunities that that God gave us at Willow and North Point. But I will say something shifts when you are at the tip of the arrow, when you are the one that is leading the church and something changes, it's like the difference between when you rent a home and then you own the home and renters are very different than owners. And so there was a whole new level of responsibility of ownership. There was a whole lot of new fears that surfaced that I didn't even have to ever think about when I was at North Point or Willow because they were billin' in these problems, not mine. There was a new set of eyes that I was able to develop over how to look over an entire organization, how to set it up for sustainability and for success. So I learned so much in the process of in some ways not that I was a renter at either of those churches because I fully embodied the mission of them. But you know, when you become an owner, you lead through different eyes and you see through different eyes and I'm grateful for it. I think stepping into senior leadership and we'll talk about you being the lead pastor along with your husband later, which is fascinating to me. But one of the things, 99% sure it was you who said this, was that when you became the leader, the point leader of a church, you saw things through an entirely different lens. And I think it was a talk you gave at the Orange Conference where you said, "Did you actually write a letter of apology to your previous bosses?" Okay, tell us about that, that's so memorable. Yeah, I just realized that when you are within the organization versus leading the organization, you have all of the luxury to think about, to pontificate, to talk about how you would lead the organization if you were the one in charge. And you know, I was a eager young leader at those of those, it's a kind way of describing it. And smart, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had it all figured out. I was as a young leader. And so I had all sorts of opinions, all sorts of feelings, all sorts of, well, you know, we should do it this way or we should do it that way and in some ways that that's the mark of leadership, you know, somebody that can see something and want to see it better. But when you're actually in the seat of the point leader and it all rises and falls through your shoulders, obviously it's God who is the lead pastor of every church. But when you sit in that seat, you see things differently, you know, I had to go back and write some letters of apologies to some of the people that had led me over the years because I realized that there was an arrogance and there was just a sharpness of how I viewed the way that they made decisions. And I looked back on that and thought, gosh, if only, if only I would have had a better understanding of all that they were having to hold together, you know, oftentimes people don't realize all that is on the leader shoulder and all that they have to carry and all that they know and all, you know, all of the information and when to dispel that information. And, you know, so there's just a lot and I wanted to through the rear view mirror have so much more grace for those that had had sat at the tip of the arrow for those that had really been been the chief leader of those organizations. Well, and I mean, kudos to you for doing that and kudos to you for talking about it. To me, that's worth the price of admission right there. I guess it's a free podcast, but you know what I mean, like that is a great, great thing to remember both for those of us who are in senior leadership roles and for those of us who may be, you know, like to think we know better than the people who are in senior leadership roles. But I think you're right. You know, Andy said it a million times if you actually have the gift of leadership, you're thinking, well, I'd do a better job than she would or he would. Yeah. So I get that, I just think that's cool and I didn't want to miss it. So, you know, go ahead and so much of my twenties and my thirties were built on a lot of ambition. And I am prayerful that my forties and my fifties and my sixties and so on are going to be more about humbition and what I mean by that is humility with ambition because leaders are ambitious and I don't ever want to, you know, sponge that out of me. I love my drive. I love my energy. I love the things that God calls me towards that that I have ambition around, but I want it to be in the foundation of humility. And I think that's the most beautiful part of a leader is when they can lead with humbition with with the with the sweet humility and the strength of ambition. That's a, that's a cool new phrase. I'm going to keep that one on vision. I don't know if it's a real word. Yeah. Well, that's okay. We make a words all the time. I always think of like godly ambition and selfish ambition, but that's cool. A humbition. That's that's neat. So, you know, you go from tens of millions of dollars, a budget to, you know, your living room. Yeah. That was a big difference. What were some other differences you saw between like working at a large complicated church and then, you know, start up world. Yeah. So, I mean, we in some ways, and I don't think we had unlimited resources, but in my mind, when I was that willow in North Point, there was unlimited resources and I remember even, you know, crafting soul cities, first budget, and, and I think my first round on it, I thought we needed like $2.5 million, okay, we didn't even have $25 million, right? And so, you know, I mean, though I had to shift my expectations without sacrificing core values and, and who we wanted to be as a church, you know, without, without sacrificing that we wanted to offer excellence, we wanted to offer creativity, we wanted to offer innovation, but we did not have unlimited resources. And so that was a big shift, you know, to go from a mega church to a quote unquote micro church. I think one of the other interesting challenges is that we, we got to become very creative around solving problems through people, not through money. And one of the things that I loved about that was that's where true innovation is born. Okay. Money, money does not, money is one way to solve a problem. But sometimes it doesn't lead you to the most innovative solution. And so for us, we got to say, okay, well, we don't have that kind of resource, what's another way to solve this problem and we can't just, you know, twiddle our thumbs and keep hoping I wish we had more money, we've got this problem. So how are we going to solve it outside of money? And we invited people to do some really bold things and to sacrifice in ways that perhaps they had never sacrificed before. And you know what, I look back on that and it was exhilarating. It was, it was amazing. I'm so glad we didn't have a $2.5 million budget because Seoul city ended up being built on the sacrifice and the innovation and the creativity and the humility of people going all in. And yeah, I'm so grateful that money was not the way that we solved our problems because we saw God answer prayers in such a way that the only way we could describe it was that's miraculous. That's miraculous. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have an example like this one come to mind of a time where you're like, oh, I wish we had money, but we don't have money. Because I think, you know, most listeners would say, yeah, we don't have an infinite sea of money and you use people instead or it actually provided an opportunity that you wouldn't have seen if you had a couple hundred thousand dollars sitting in the bank. Absolutely. You know, one of the, one of the very first miracles of Seoul city church was actually the facility that we're in. And oftentimes church planters, this is one of their largest challenges. Where are we going to meet, where, where are we going to assemble so that this mission can get some fuel behind it and really grow and so much of their budget ends up going towards facility. And there's all those, all of those challenges, you know, that, that show up. Well, there was a, a friend of ours had a friend that he knew that he connected us with that owned a full city block, their family had owned this full city block. And on the, on the block was a warehouse. And I started meeting with one of the leaders of the, of, you know, this, this family and we started having coffee and we started connecting over the vision and then they were believers. Amazing. Amazing people. And, and so I remember really clearly, early on giving him an LOI, a letter of intent saying, could we, could we rent a portion of this warehouse space to get our church up off the ground, you know, and I kind of slid the LOI across the table, like, you know, this is all we can afford and, and he said, oh, man, I, I wish we could do something to help you out. But, you know, we just, we can't, we can't do that right now. Well, you know, I, I could have taken that no as a no, but I took it as an opportunity to just keep praying, and I took it as an opportunity to just keep asking God to either turn his heart, turn his family's heart, or, you know, to do something miraculous in a different direction. But I had this sense that this was the space that we were supposed to start our church. Well, unbeknownst to me, they started praying, Kerry, and came back to us about six months later and said, you know, we know that you're looking for a location to start your church. And we've been praying and we feel compelled by God to let you have this 22,000 square feet of warehouse space rent free for two years. Wow. And it, I mean, it just blew my mind, right? I was like, did you just say the words that I think you said, did you just say free? Like we don't have to pay rent for two years that we have this facility 24 seven, like round the clock. And that was a game changing moment for us. And yeah, it would be, you know, we didn't solve our facility problem with money. We solved that facility problem with a whole lot of prayer. And with inviting somebody to do something radically sacrificial and God compelled them to do it. Now, I know that that's not the story for every single church planter out there that somebody gives them, you know, 22,000 square feet of warehouse space rent free for two years. That is our story. It is a miracle of God is truly, it was a game changer for us as a church. But I'm so glad that I didn't try to solve our facility problem with money early on because we didn't have it. And God kind of just said, watch how I solve this problem for you. Oh, I watch how I take care of my church. So yeah, it's probably one of my favorite stories from our early days of seeing God move. That's an incredible story. And so, you know, moving from a mega church environment to a startup church, a church plant, you've already hinted at this. You said you didn't quite say I became a Christian, no, but like you relied on Jesus in ways that maybe you hadn't had to to that point in your life, not that your faith wasn't sincere or genuine. Absolutely. Or all of that. But like, what else was it like for you or you and Jarrett as you move from that, you know, large, well supported resource organization into startup world? Like what did that do for you personally as leaders? I think that it gave us a new set of eyes for how organizations actually get built and how healthy organizations get built. And so it gave me such a deep respect for the infant years of both Willow and North Point and that, you know, those organizations are incredible and people peer in on them and say, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Well, they all, they both started from a vision and from a mission and they had infant days, you know, they weren't a mega church the first day. Yeah. And Bill Heibels talks about like plant, you know, selling tomatoes and Andy talks about waiting for the mail to arrive and hoping that there was something in it. Yeah. And one of the great gifts of that is that it really puts you in a posture of dependence, which is the best posture for every leader to lead out of. A leader that is dependent on God is the best kind of leader to follow because you know that they're choosing courage over comfort and that that's hard, but good. And so yeah, there were so many great things moving from a mega church to a church plant, you know, that that are challenges. And I look at those challenges now and we're still, you know, we're only four and a half years old. So we're not, we're not an old church in any way, but I still look back on that. And I think of all of the different things that we're actually a gift in a curriculum to us. The challenges, I see them now as a gift to grow my dependence, you know, because there's always the, always the logistics that go into starting a church. There are so many logistics. We talked about this already, but you know, resources and raising resources, finding the right people is this the right person. And then garnering and holding healthy rhythms personally and professionally. And so all of those things got pushed in us. And you know, it was like we were in the furnace of dependence. And I think that one of the most beneficial things that came out of planting a church was gosh, I don't want to lead outside of being dependent on God because when I depend on me, it is messy. When I depend on God, there is a different piece about me. And it just has grown me and put a deeper steadfastness in me as a leader. And I'm so grateful for it. What's been the hardest part of planting a church for you, Jeannie, when you look back on four and a half years, five years, what's going on? Yeah, you know, I think one of the personal things for me that I think I could have talked about this and said, you know, well, I know that not everybody's going to stay and they're going to come for a while. And then some people are going to leave and I think I could probably talk about that logically. But I didn't have the true understanding of what that felt like emotionally when, you know, you go all in together and you get into the trenches of building a church and, you know, this mission means everything to you. You've sacrificed everything to start it. And somebody comes in for a season and then they go and they leave. And I think for me, that has been one of the leadership challenges and good lessons is to learn how to love people well for the time that they are there and to love them with all of me and to know that they are not mine and God may call them to other things and they may leave Soul City Church and they may not see it the same way that I see it. And that's okay. But you know, some of the first people that left or moved on or, you know, one of our challenges as a church being in an urban context is that lots of people are transferred to Chicago and they stay here for 18 months to two years and then they're transferred somewhere else. And so, you know, we don't have people that are like, I'm going to grow old with you and we're going to sit on a rocking chair together and talk about our years at Soul City, you know, and lots of the people that come to Soul City are only going to be here for 18 months. They're only going to be here for maybe, you know, a year even. And so I had to learn a new understanding around that and how do the relationships and, you know, some of frankly, some of the first temptations that I had was, well, I'm not going to share my life with anyone. You know, I'm not going to give real close. Yeah, you're just going to leave too. And I see, I see the writing on the wall and so, you know, we're just going to have a professional relationship with one another and we're not going to share lives with one another. But that wouldn't be true to who I am because I love people deeply and I love to share life with them. And so, you know, that even people leaving can be an opportunity and a gift for me to grow. And God's going to grow my leadership through that and he's going to change our organization because of it. And so, so that has been probably one of my personal challenges is seeing people leave and how that affects the leader. Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. And I'm sure it's not just people being transferred out either. I mean, as heartbreaking as it is, you know, you poured your whole life into planning this church and some people come for a season and then they go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's hard. I love, I forget exactly how you set it, but you said, you know, my job is to love them wholeheartedly and even to love them when they leave. But that's tough, isn't it? It is. It absolutely is. And I think one of the great gifts for us in the context that we're at is, you know, we're downtown Chicago. We're in an urban, urban setting, like I just said, people are transient. They come, they go, they get connected and then they leave. And what has been a gift for me is I realize, okay, for however long somebody is here at Seoul City Church, I get to be a part of seeing them transformed and developed into the person that God ultimately created them to be. And the gift is it's, it's a picture of going, I get to be a part of the development of the broader kingdom of God. Because my prayer is that people are going to leave Seoul City, they're going to hopefully go find another church and another place, you know, and they're going to take that DNA of transformation with them. And frankly, the real gift is seeing that I am about building the kingdom of God, not my kingdom. And oftentimes church leaders, you know, they want people to stay. They want people to fill their serving roles. They want people to give this certain way, you know, when it's all about building their church. And one of the big turning points for me was realizing, no, I am building the kingdom of God. That's what I am a part of in Seoul City Church is one little part of that, one little part of the broader, more beautiful church, which is the kingdom of God. So yeah, it's, it's been a good, good way to grow me as a leader. That's so healthy. I just think that's so healthy when you see things that way, Jeannie, totally, totally appreciate it. Now, one of the, one of the tremendous parts of the story is that you and your husband, Jarrett, are both actually lead pastors of Seoul City Church. So tell us about that dynamic. I mean, how does it work? First of all, I think there's two aspects to it. You know, how does it work to actually have two lead pastors? And then how does it work when the two lead pastors are married to each other? Yeah. We're all, we're all taking notes. So just tell us. All the time, okay, tell me about this dynamic and how does this actually really work? You know, Jarrett and I are gifted really differently, but we're gifted in a complimentary way. And so, you know, some of Jarrett's best contribution to, to a local church is he's a fantastic, a communicator, he's incredibly creative and while I communicate and while I, I hope that there's some creative bones in my body, that's not my best play. My best play is leadership and vision and structure and culture. And so we've really set up our organization in such a way where it's, it's gift based. It's a gift based leadership culture. And so rather than, you know, this is how churches should do it. They should have this kind of structure. We've set it up in such a way where we just go, these are Jarrett's best gifts and contributions. And these are my best gifts and my contributions. And we're both equally accountable to our elder team, you know, one does not sit over the other, you know, so there's, there's truly an equality to our leadership. And frankly, we really have to do the hard work of reminding ourselves that before we were pastors, we were married to one another, before we are pastors. You loved each other? Yeah. Yes. We are parents. And so we really make it clear, even to our church, you know, we will tell them all the time. When it comes to the priority list, the priority list goes like this. God first, marriage second, parenting third, pastoring fourth. And so our people know that, you know, and so we just don't prioritize soul city church over our own relationship with God, over our relationship with one another, our relationship with our kids, because, you know, I'm not going to be the lead pastor of soul city church for the rest of my life, right? But I want to be married to Jarrett and I want to be my kids mom for the rest of their life. We prioritize those relationships over our responsibility of leading this church. Okay. And the way that we've organized it is it's very gift based. Right. So if it's gift based, I'm just curious, like, why both lead pastors? Why not one is sort of lead communicators slash lead pastor, the other as executive? Was there something to that that made you say, no, we're in this together? Like, is it a togetherness thing or what is it that made you both lead pastors? You know, one of the things that I love about, and I won't go too deep into a theological rabbit trail here, one of the things that I love about the Trinity is their mutual submission to one another and that they each play a distinct role. And so for us, we said we want to model what is modeled in the Trinity. It's the mutual submission, but they each play a distinct role. And so for us, we didn't want to build a hierarchical thing in our relationship with one another, where one was in charge of this thing, and then there was a discrepancy in power. We said the healthier model is for us to mutually submit to one another and to offer a co leadership versus one has more power than the other, if you will. Okay, that's not a rabbit trail at all. That's genius. That's genius. That's probably the best answer to co leadership I've ever heard. And, you know, a really great model for Christian marriage as well, right, mutual submission and distinct roles, but I've never actually heard it tied to the Trinity and boy, hats off. I think that's genius. That's really, really good. So because it's complimentary, and then in the sense of gifting, it's not like, well, I want that Sunday, no, I want that Sunday, right? Like you're not, you're not really playing day to day in the same fields all the time. I imagine that makes decision making a little bit easier as well. You're not trying to do the same thing. I mean, so the model is equality, but we use our gifts. We try to compliment one another's gifts. So that's truly how clean it is. And so, Jared, he has the muscle memory to be able to preach every weekend. I do not. I do not. I am great if I preach every four weeks or every five weeks. That feels fantastic to me. If I had to do it every single Sunday, it would be very painful. Now the reverse, I have a lot of muscle memory that just comes out naturally when it comes to leadership, when it comes to staff culture, when it comes to meetings, when it comes to strategic decision making, when it comes to looking into, okay, how are we going to solve this problem? That comes very natural to me. And that's not as natural for Jared. And so that's why we did it in such a way where we're playing to our strengths. We're playing to our best gifts. And hopefully with us doing that, and you know, frankly, Carrie, that's how we have structured our staff as well. So this isn't just like a special thing that we did for us. We try to put people in the right seats on the bus so that they can use their best gift so that they can bring what they're fantastic at. Their genius gets to be expressed in the body of Christ. And I think that's where, you know, when Paul talks about, you know, there's many different parts, but each part plays its part, that's how we've tried to structure our organization, that the hand should not say to the nose, hey, what's your role, you know, why are you even here? I don't think you're as good as I am because I'm a hand. But we really do try to honor the teachings of Scripture that every part plays a part. And so what's your best part to play? See that's good. Now I got to ask because I know a lot of people, I mean, it's not my context, but a lot of people where both couples work for the church. So I'm sure there's probably a few people. It's like, yeah, we're both lead pastors too, you know, and you'll probably get an email from them. But I think there's a lot of leaders who are like, you know, you know, my spouse is so involved in the church, he might as well or he might as well just be on staff or both on staff. And I mean, you're in the most intense phase, I think, of leadership that there is, which is startup world. Like I don't, if there is a more intense phase, I don't know what it is. But whenever you're starting something, it's just intense. So how have you kept those boundaries? Because you know, it could become all consuming. I mean, both of you work full time at the church. You're raising kids and your kids aren't adults. I mean, they need mom and dad around. And how have you navigated that? Where has it worked? Well, and then, and then where have you had to recalibrate? Yeah. So I am a classic. I learned from my mistakes, my best teacher is my mistakes. And there's been a lot of falling into a hole and going, okay, how did we get here? Right. How did this happen? We're imbalanced, which I don't even believe in the word balance anymore. We're out of rhythm. Things aren't, things aren't right. You know, you've been gone this many nights. I haven't gone this many nights. We're taking this many meetings where, you know, it's, and so I think that the mistakes have actually been some of the greatest gifts. And honestly, last summer, we were right at about our three year mark as a church. And Jared and I, we looked at one another and we were like, wow, you look tired. And he was like, wow, you look tired. And it's because we were. It's because we were grossly tired. We needed about a month long nap. And so some of the gift of hitting that spot of being exceptionally tired was a wake-up call to say the way that we're doing it doesn't work. So we have to find a new way. And so actually, you know, this is a very fresh thing for me that I would not say I have a lot that I can bring, that I've been doing this forever, forever and ever. But I am learning that there needs to be really healthy rhythms. And so there's simple things like, I know this is going to sound silly. We have a little box on our kitchen counter and we come home and we put our cell phones in the box so that we're not tempted to take one more email or one more call or one more text message or oh, I just got to get this one last thing communicated over to, you know, somebody at the church and it's truly saying the God who hung the stars and who hung the moon and who hung the sun today is in control and I don't need to be. And I can put my phone in this box for two hours and everything is going to be okay. And that's the greatest gift I can give my kids right now. So you know, it's simple things like that. And if you were to ask me, are we faithful to do it every single day? Nope, we're not. There's lots of times where we make mistakes and where we have to call one another out and say, hey, your phone is out. Could you put it in the box or, hey, I noticed that you're really distracted right now. Is everything okay? You know, and so we really try to, one, believe the best about each other and call one another to live the best that God has created us to live. And I totally appreciate your honesty in that. And you know, I think for a lot of leaders who are like entrepreneurial or, you know, just driven, you don't, and particularly anybody who really owns their ministry or isn't start up mode. I mean, you don't have a job that you leave. I mean, this is a calling. And so it's hard, I mean, I took the morning off and I went for a long like two hour bike ride and it was to sort of get away from everything, but you know, I'm right back in my message again, trying to fix it, you know, and it's, and it's a way that you're going to make sure that your soul is replenished and clear and you're leading from, from a healthy rhythm of you being dependent on God so that you can invite others into being dependent on God. Yeah, I think that's so true and really appreciate that. And I think for a lot of leaders, they, you know, it's not like there's a formula and you nail it once and it's good for 20 years, it's constant correction, mid course correction. Get on your knees. Look at each other. Hey, you're tired. I'm tired. Uh oh, we got a rein. I find that having grace for one another and saying, I get it, man, I've been there too. And what do you need for me? And how can I help? And, and so I think that that's, you know, that's just a rule for marriage is the kind of grace that you want to be offered is the grace that you should offer to your partner to your spouse. And so, yeah, so we are, we're deep in grace in the Stephen's family. That's good. And you've seen like God has really blessed your work. You're seeing some weekends, 1500 people and you're in the middle of a capital campaign right now. You're going to start one and building project and all of that ahead and, and, and that's incredible. Now, other than the grace of God, what would you attribute your growth to? Because it's pretty spectacular and meteoric over the last five years, Jeannie. You know, I think one of the things, and I'm glad that you said, other than the grace of God, because that would be the first thing that I would say is the grace of God. But I would say learning how to say yes to the best and know to all the rest. And I know that it rhymes and I know phrase, but I have to remind myself of that phrase all the time. Leaders start things because they're passionate. They see something wrong in the world and they want to write it. They see something broken and they want to fix it. It's one of the most beautiful things about leadership. But if you do that at a pace that cannot sustain, you are going to burn people out. And so you should only say yes to a few things when you start your church. Do not have 17 ministries that you launch your church with. We launched our church with a weekend gathering, with small groups and with the kids ministry. And that was it. And have I had lots of dreams about other ministries that I want to see start and grow and flourish absolutely have some come along the way yes they have, but they came at the right time. And oftentimes it's the pacing and it's the rhythm of building the organization that gives us a healthy momentum along the way. I would say another thing that I would attribute growth to is we have a clear mission and we have a clear strategy and we say our mission every single week. And what that does for us is that keeps us aligned, that keeps us clear. This is what God's called us to do. And so if some great idea pops up or some great innovation for us to do and we run it through our mission, we run it through our strategy, we run it through our values and we go, oh, that might take us sideways. We say no, we say no to it. And so really that phrase that yes to the best and no to all the rest that has that has been such a guide for me to I've had to really learn my no muscle and learn it well and say no to a lot of things that would have been great, but they weren't the best. Yeah, that's good advice. You know, I've got to spend some time later today saying no to two things I really, really, really want to do personally and they almost qualify as the best, but I can't. And what I've found is the more you say no, the more opportunities come along to, you know, if you're aligned in the right direction. So, Jeannie, this has been great. And I got one more question for you. What advice do you have for anyone thinking of planning a church or even a campus in an urban context? Because you guys, I mean, we didn't spend a lot of time on that in the podcast, but you guys are like right downtown and that's, that's super cool. So like for somebody who's thinking of going urban or maybe even just starting a church, what would you say? Yeah, I mean, in no particular order, I'll just fire off a few quick thoughts. To start something, it doesn't matter what you're starting. You are going to have to trade in comfort for courage and that hurts and it's hard. So get ready to do it. There will be moments when you are lonely, where you feel frustrated, where you feel exhausted. But trading in that comfort for courage is such a transformational experience. And so do it. I would say surround yourself with people that are going to tell you 100% of the truth. They know you, they know your flaws, they know your hiccups, they know where you are likely going to stumble and make sure you give them permission to tell you the truth. I would say take risks. Any entrepreneurial adventure is a risky thing. And so don't be afraid of the risks, don't be afraid of getting out of the boat and walking on the waves. Know your environment, know your neighborhood, know the people that you are trying to love and to reach. If you just view them as an entity to come to your church versus love them as true people, you know, I love my neighbors and I long for them to be a part of Soul City Church. And I don't just see them as people to fill seats. I see them as people that I want to be, I want to see them transformed by the love of God. And you know, that's a huge thing. Keep your heart soft, communicate often. We use the phrases around here, communication is care. And if you didn't communicate something, the translation to the person that didn't hear your communication is they don't care about me. It's true. And you don't mean it that way. You don't think about it that way but have really good communication because oftentimes that is where things break down is in the communication. Leave your work at the church and go home as often as you can as much as you can and trust that God is the lead pastor of your church. You are not and he has got this. I think more lead pastors relinquishing control is going to radically change the landscape of church culture. We are leading in these positions with such high, high, high control. And I look at Jesus and I think, oh my gosh, he was the son of God and he entrusted the future of the church to the 12 disciples. I mean, talk about the son of God was not holding the future of the church with a white knuckled control. No, it was actually a bad business plan if you take a look at it and wasn't very smart. And yet you and I are here having a conversation about the church. And it's because our Savior entrusted it into people like you and me, which still blows my mind. And if we can lead our churches with open hands, listening to God dependent on him, I have such, such high hope for what is to come. So encouraging, so inspiring, Jeannie, people are going to want to learn more and they're going to want to connect with you. Where's the best place to find you and maybe soul city church online? Yeah. So they could go to soulcitychurch.com. But if you go to jeanniestevens.com, I'm on Instagram and Twitter. You can find me there as well, Jeannie Stevens. So yeah, I look forward to hearing from some of your listeners. That's awesome. Jeannie, thank you so much. Thank you, Carrie. I appreciate our time and I am grateful for all that you do and the ways that you are committed to helping church leaders like me. You are a great gift, great gift. That's very kind and thank you so much for being part of that today and for everything you do, Jeannie. Really appreciate you. Absolutely. All right. See you later. I think probably my favorite thing that I've heard from Jeannie over the years has just been that letter of apology she wrote to her old bosses when she became the senior leader. It's like, I had no idea. I had no idea. I don't know why that's so therapeutic for me, but I don't know. I've always sat in the senior leader chair. It's just, you know, my particular path. But yeah, there's a weight to it and there's an understanding to it that just, I don't think you get until you're in that chair. And I know a lot of you who listen are in that chair. Maybe that was therapeutic for you. Hey, you can get everything Jeannie and I talked about including links to her, to her church, to any resources we talked about in the show notes. Just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode44, you'll find everything there. And the next week we come back and I'm really excited to have my guest next week, Bryan Miles, leader of EA Help and also Magbookkeeping. Bryan's just a great church leader. We had a fantastic conversation and we're going to talk all about how to get a great relationship with your assistant, how to better optimize, work with an assistant. He's got some free resources as well. We're going to give away next week. So you want to make sure you get that easiest way to never miss an episode is, come on. You can fill in the blanks by now. What, what, what? Subscribe, subscribe. That's right. It's free. You can go to the Stitcher or iTunes, just hit the subscribe button. And if you would, leave us a rating and a review. It just helps everything get out. The word get out to other leaders. And that's our goal. We want to help you lead like never before. And I hope that's exactly what this episode has helped you do. So if you do subscribe, we'll be automatically on your devices next Tuesday. Looking forward to that conversation. We'll talk to you then. You've been listening to the karaenuhoff leadership podcast. And that's next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead like never before. [MUSIC]