The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 043 – What's Next in Multisite—How New Locations, Mergers and Aquistions Could Impact Most Churches
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 43 of the podcast. Hey, we are right into summer now, and wherever you are, thanks for taking the time to listen. I really, really hope that this episode helps you lead like never before. Today, we're gonna be talking to a guy that probably a lot of you who are in church world anyway know his name is Jim Tambarlin. And I don't know whether anybody knows more about the multi-site church than Jim. And he's also really gotten into church mergers, which we'll talk about a little bit during our interview today. Really excited to have him on the podcast. And I'm excited because, you know, I think it doesn't take a lot to figure out, I'm pretty passionate about churches that wanna reach people. And I'm pretty passionate about the condition of the church, period. And I think one of the great stories that's been written over the last 20 years is multi-site church. And I think when it started, I mean, it was really what mega churches were doing, but what's really cool about multi-site is now, you know, not huge churches are doing it. And I think with this whole merger thing, there's something for everyone in here. Because what's happening is, you know, probably less than 10% of churches are growing, as we talked about with Tom Rainer back in episode 36. And in some areas, it's probably like 5% of churches are growing. And so what do you do if you have a church that stuck? What do you do if you have a church that, you know, is sitting on resources or assets and doesn't know what to do with them? Well, a lot of churches are seeing mergers lately. And then growing churches are also expanding into multiple locations. So I think it's a fascinating conversation, at least if you're passionate about the church like I am. And I know like a surprising percentage of church leaders are thinking about going multi-site. So it's just a fascinating thing. And if you have a heart for the kingdom and if your church is multi-site or is thinking about what's next, Jim has got some fascinating insights. And for all of you who may be struggling in your church, you're like, you know, we just, no matter what we do, we just can't seem to get going. There's hope here too, because you may have a church that is doing quite well near you that you could partner up with. And so Jim and I are gonna talk about that. So thanks for listening. Hey, I hope, man, I don't know about you, but like summer is my absolute favorite season. So whether you're on a run today on a bike ride, whether you're cooking or barbecuing or in the car, on a commute, or just on a break at work, and you're listening in, or maybe you're one of those rare people who can actually multitask and like listen to something and work at the same time, I cannot do it. My kids can do that. Like they used to study for example, while they're still in school, they study for exams while watching TV. As soon as there is a voice, I just can't focus. So anyway, if you're one of those rare people, hats off to you. I don't know how you do it, but that's awesome. So wherever you are, hey, it's great to be on this journey together. And I wanna thank everybody who continues to leave reviews on iTunes, that is so amazing, thank you. We are just pushing up to 200 reviews on iTunes. And when you leave a review, first of all, it's real feedback that I read and I really appreciate. And it also gets the podcast in front of other people. So it's a way of just sort of sharing the love and making sure that other leaders see it. So thanks for doing that. And today's podcast is brought to you by Orange Tour. And even as much as we are in the height of summer right now in July, I hope you're starting to think about the fall. And I would encourage you, if you're gonna book something this fall, to take a serious look at the Orange Tour. And if you go to orangetour.org, you'll see all the details there. I'm gonna be at about half the cities on this Orange Tour, but coast to coast across the US. Reggie Joyner, myself and a bunch of other leaders are going to different cities. And we will probably be in a city near you and would love to meet with you. I'm gonna talk about senior leadership issues. We're gonna talk about how to reach the next generation. It is a great venue to bring your teams to and often people will bring like, you know, a dozen or even 20 people with them 'cause it's affordable and it's in your neighborhood. So you don't have like flights and hotels and that whole deal, which makes conferences so expensive. So a lot of you've been asking, hey, what cities are you gonna be in this fall? I'm gonna give you a list of the cities. This is tentative. I mean, I'm 99% sure I'm gonna be in these cities, but I will be at the Atlanta Tour Stop. The two day in Irvine, California in September, which is gonna be a lot of fun. I will also be at the Washington DC Tour Stop. We'll be in Indianapolis. We'll also be in Austin and Dallas and finally in Nashville. So super excited for that. So if you've never been to an Orange Tour stop location, make sure you go to orangetour.org today and register because we would love to have you and that tour has been selling out over the last few years. So make sure you jump on right now and rates are a little bit better than if you wait. So because I love the local church, I'm so excited about doing the Orange Tour this fall and hope to meet you. That honestly is probably the most rewarding part of doing any of this, the writing I do on my blog and this podcast is just meeting you and hearing your stories and having conversations. So I'm really excited about the Orange Tour and because I love the local church, I'm super excited about this interview with Jim Tomberlin. And right before we jump into it, if you wanna take notes, we've already done that for you. You can just go to carrynewhough.com/episode43 and everything is right there for you. So now my interview with Jim Tomberlin. Really excited today to have Jim Tomberlin with me and Jim is somebody, we were just talking about this when we were getting ready that I met for the first time 10 years ago and have just sort of been on the edge of each other's circle for the last decade, but it's really nice to reconnect. And a lot of you know him as multi-site guy, also church merger guy, 'cause that's another area that you've been working on lately and the founder of multi-site solutions and the chief strategist for it. So Jim, welcome. - It's great to be with you, Carrie and I'm a big fan, love your writings. They're fresh, they're insightful, well-written and it's a real treat to be with you today. - Oh, thanks. It's a real honor to have you. So this is a cool journey you've been on. So you have been in church world, pretty much your whole adult life, well I guess it's a child too. And tell us a little bit how you got to do what you do, which is basically help churches either become multi-site or become better at multi-site. I mean, you've been doing this full time for 10 years, which is just fascinating. - Well, my journey with multi-site church began when I was a senior pastor in Colorado Springs at Woodman Valley Chapel back in the '90s. That journey that started there got me invited to leave kicking and screaming Colorado Springs to go to Chicago to pioneer the multi-site model at Willow Creek in the year 2000, five years later, four campuses later, the multi-site was working at Willow Creek and I was getting a lot of calls from around the country from other churches on how do you do this multi-site thing? And so after five years and four campuses, we decided we had completed what God had brought us there to do, my wife and I, and felt led to make ourselves available to serve the body of Christ around the country and beyond now in multi-site strategies. - I thought maybe last several years were 10 years going strong and it didn't slowing down. - Yeah, I remember when I met you in the Foyer that day, it was a, what was it, it was like a multi-site summit right before the leadership summit back in 2005 and I'd heard about you and was really impressed by the whole multi-site thing and shook your hand and you were like, yeah, this is my last official event at Willow Creek and so you were literally on your way out the door. And who would have known even back then that multi-site would become what it is today? - Yeah, we had our two main speakers that day. We're two unknowns, Greg Serrat and Craig Rochelle. - Yeah. - And so-- - Say what? - Serrat, Rochelle, but that's true. Like they weren't really on a lot of people's radar screens. - No. - Yeah, yeah, it's funny as I met Craig Rochelle that day too. We actually had lunch, he wouldn't remember that, but he was gracious enough to sit down with me at lunch as this guy from Canada who went and said, "Hey, can we chat?" And that was a really cool summit. Another podcast guest, Dave McDaniel and I, we're talking about that recently, like he and I met that day for the first time as well. So that was a really interesting and cool day back in probably August of 2005. - Very significant day in the beginning of a paradigm shift within the church. - Yeah, and you know what, it's one of those things too, just for a lot of listeners who go to conferences, you know, make sure you don't just take notes, like go meet some people, go shake some hands and make some alliances because, you know, 10 years later, you just never know where you're gonna end up, what people are doing. If somebody said, well, you know, fast forward 10 years and you'll be interviewing Jim for a podcast and he's gonna be helping churches around the world do multi-site, it would be like, what? I don't even know what a podcast is. Like, give me a break. So it's funny where God takes you. Very, very different places. - By the way, Kerry, Willow Creek dislodged their seventh campus last month, and so-- - That's amazing. - And it's fun because now the babies are having babies and that's when it starts to really get exciting. - Yeah, that's cool. So what was multi-site all about? 'Cause that's what we're really gonna focus on in this episode, and I think one of the things, just so you don't think, oh, great. Like eight megachurch pastors can listen to this episode because, but multi-site has changed a lot. I mean, a lot of smaller churches, a lot of mid-sized churches doing multi-site, and forget what the exact stat is, but like a ridiculous number, not ridiculous and bad, but like a lot of churches are thinking about going multi-site. Or you might, I think there are lessons even for the single-site church that is like, well, what would be some of the key ingredients that would make me a candidate for multi-site? So all that to say, this is not just for like megachurches and not just for churches that have gazillions of dollars, but what was multi-site all about when you started out in it full time a decade ago? - Well, the multi-site movement began as a megachurch band-aid strategy, or megachurches who found themselves out of room or out of space or restricted by zoning laws. That was what got me starting down that path. And the first wave of the multi-site churches were megachurches that were solving that kind of problem. - And it still kind of has that reputation, doesn't it? Like, you know that this is for the, oh yeah, thousands of people you don't know where to put, so you start another campus. - Yeah, but that's quickly evolved beyond being a band-aid strategy for megachurches, and it became a growth strategy for healthy churches of all sizes. Today I like to say, Carrie, that you don't have to be mega to be multi. And as a matter of fact, there's over 5,000 multi-site churches today, according to our latest survey with Leadership Network last year. But there's about 1,600 megachurches, but there's over 5,000 multi-site churches. So this movement is outpacing, very quickly outpaced, the megachurch movement. You don't have to be mega to be multi. And you don't have to be video. That's the other assumption. - Right. - Only about half of the multi-site churches use video. Half do and half don't. And so those are the two assumptions that people often conclude wrongly. Oh, that's a megachurch in a video strategy. And wrong on both points. And the average church now today that goes multi-site is around 1,200 in attendance. - Okay. - So that's less than a megachurch of 2,000. But we now have 72 gigachurches in the nation. - Wow. - Which is 10,000. - 10,000 more. - 10,000 or more. And most of those, I think all of them, but maybe two of them are all multi-site because now they're not limited to a building. So even if it's a big building, they're not limited to that one location. And so we'll see more of that. - So when you say megachurch for the purposes of your, this discussion, are you talking about churches of 1,000, 2,000? - 5,000, what's the threshold for mega? - Well, the official definition is 2,000 total people on a weekend. - Gotcha, yeah. So attendance of 2,000 or greater. - More, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. Which, I mean, is what? Top half a percent of all churches. - Half of 1%. - Half of 1%. That was a good guess. I should guess more often. - There's 320,000 Protestant churches in the US. - Wow. - And so I'm not sure what that is in Canada. And... - There's about 12. - Mm-hmm. - So I'm kidding, you know, it's just smaller. It's just smaller. Yeah. - So, but yeah. So half of 1% is, or what I consider megachurches. And, but it started with megachurches, but now it's really, it's a healthy church strategy. - Yeah. - And it's also become a revitalization strategy for stable but stuck churches who have, they're not in trouble. They're solid. They've been around a long time, but they're not growing, but they're, you know, they're anchoring the community. They're influential. They have resources. And many of those kinds of churches are finding that this is a way to re, to leverage their strengths locally and re-energize their base by extending themselves beyond their 15 or 20 minutes from around their campus. When I went to Willow Creek in the year 2000, it hadn't grown in five years. It was one of the largest churches in the country at the time. It had $20 million in the bank, no debt and a very outreach-oriented pastor. And yet they had kind of hit that place where they were, hadn't grown for a few years. Now they were full. So the thinking was, we need more seats. And so we did, you know, this is when I came in the picture. Let's add some more seats that are home-based, but let's try this regional campus model as well to add more seats. - So it was a both-and. - Is it both-and? - 'Cause I remember, was it 04 that the large auditorium opened up? - Yes, 04. - 04, yeah. - And, you know, in the last, in over these last 10 plus years now, the overwhelming majority of the growth of Willow Creek has been at their multi-sights. They've gone. - I think churches like Life Church, sorry. I didn't mean cutting off, we got a bit of lag, but churches like Life Church and North Point would say the same thing. Like you can only get so full and if you start adding like 3 a.m. services, nobody comes. So, you know, you've got to grow by adding new sites. - Another wave of this movement is that a lot of declining churches and we've talked about that earlier that are in trouble around the country, or many of them are finding that there's a chance to have a rebirth, a resurrection, or a second life by joining with a vibrant growing church that's multi-siding through mergers. So that multi-siding through mergers is becoming a growing trend as well. - So let's back up a little bit because you said a couple of things that I don't think were part of the dialogue or at least not part of the dialogue. I was aware of a few years ago because it was always that multi-site was not a growth strategy, but it was something that growing churches did. And you had said that one of the trends over the last decade has been that churches that might be stuck are starting to move to multi-site as a way of revitalizing. So if, you know, I can imagine that's resonating with a lot of leaders right now going, okay, you know, we're not fundamentally dysfunctional. We're not unhealthy, you know, compared to a lot of other churches, but we're just not growing. So opening a second location, is that always a strategy for growth or like, how does that work? - It can be, but multi-site is a healthy church strategy. It's not a strategy to turn a church around. As churches can level off, not because there's anything internally wrong, or not because they're not connected with their larger community around them. Many times, all churches will level off after 10 to 15 years, typically. And, you know, if the community slows down, there's no more new growth and all that sort of thing. There's still some, you're reaching new people, but just to the national attrition, there's not a lot of net gain. So a lot of churches will find themselves in that category. There, and can find that the multi-citing and other parts of their larger community is a way to bring fresh vision and excitement and energy to the home base, and to leverage their strong, healthy reputation there. You don't have to be out of room and out of space to go multi-site, and that's one of the things we're seeing now. - Yeah, and that's a challenge. - But you do have to be healthy. You have to be healthy. - So what would be some of the markers of people are, 'cause I think pastors have a way of like, overstating or understating their health. You know, we're like, oh, we're super healthy, and you come in as my consultant and go, well, what about this? Or have you checked behind, you know, looked under this carpet 'cause there's some dirt? And, or, you know, we tend to think, oh, we're not healthy at all, and then you might come in and go, no, no, no, you guys are really healthy, like you could do this. So how do you get an accurate sense of whether, yeah, we're just kind of stuck right now, but the fundamentals are good, and multi-site might be for us? Are there two or three typical markers? - Well, I get that question asked a lot. What's considered a growing church is 5% growth a year. - Okay. - So that's one standard you might look at. I liked what your guests last week said, Tom Rayner, who's one of my favorite - Oh, yeah. - Vloggers to follow as well. I liked his definition of, you know, 10% of the churches in America today are growing faster than their community. 10%, I forget how he said that, or losing-- - 10% are growing slower, they're sick or dying. - Yeah, but then 80% are showing signs of sickness. I think that's a, I would affirm that. I think it's very important for a local church that's considering multi-site, that they have clarity about their mission and vision, and that there's unity around that among their church leadership. That to me is a healthy church. Another characteristic would be that they have good systems in next step and processes to help people through their spiritual journey. This is why I tell churches when you're just a few hundred people, many times those things haven't gotten developed enough to reproduce. But, so I think these are some of the characteristics that I suggested churches to look at. Are these things happening? Is your church leadership unified? Is there clarity on your mission and vision? Are you maximizing your current facility or utilizing it well before you multi-site? These are some of the things that can you add another alternative type service in another part of your building? These are some of the steps, either worship style or just a different flavor. - And so would you encourage churches to do that? Like let's say they've got an auditorium or a basement somewhere or an off venue that used to be used that isn't in much use. Would it be like max out that before going multi-site or relocate in another neighborhood? - No, I'm a big advocate of maximizing your current location as much as you can. And now again, sometimes where a church is leveled off, the community is slowed down. I mean, it's an over community, perhaps. And there's not a lot of explosive growth around you. You may not fill up all your space. But yeah, I like to suggest that before you multi-site, you do multiple services, at least two. - Yeah. - That you, if you're gonna do the video model, then have a do a video venue in another part of your building. I even suggest, even if you're not gonna do video model strategy for multi-site, you should put video screens with iMag in your services, because people, it'll be a better experience for them. Even if you're in the room, they're gonna watch the screen. They'll see and hear you better. And so those are the three things I recommend to do churches before they multi-site. I like to suggest is, if possible, to be about 10 months pregnant with a multi-site campus. But again, a lot has to do with this life cycle in the life stage of a local church. - Right. - And so sometimes there are churches that they're not gonna see that kind of growth in their local place, in that location. But they do have a presence and reputation across the region that they could multi-site, especially if it's through mergers. And there's maybe a handful of people in another part of another town where they have a base. These are some of the ways that churches that are stable but stuck in multi-site. - Yeah, that's a good point too. I like what you said about systems, because I think you can grow to three, four, five hundred people based on the charisma of a leader, or just a moment in time where you've got some momentum right now. But I don't know who it was who said to me, two locations is more than twice as complicated. And we have two locations at our church. It's more than twice as complicated. You have to have systems, you have to have deliverables. And you know, if you're ever to grow beyond 500 people, like your systems are an absolute necessity. And it can't be like one guy driving it all or one woman driving it all. You just, you can't do it. You've gotta, and you gotta be prepared for growth. You know, what's it like at 1,200 or 1,500? What does that look like? You know, we had a good example of that. We're recording this month's in advance, but you know, it was our opening Sunday for our facility last Sunday. And we grew by 50% overnight. And I sat down with our staff on Tuesday, we went from about 1,000 in attendance to 1,500. Now that might have been opening day, you know, euphoria or something like that. But I said to our staff on our Tuesday debrief, it's like, hey, our systems worked. Like kids check in, worked for 50% more people overnight. You know, our, nobody felt, we were all exhausted 'cause we had just opened a facility, but nobody felt like, oh my goodness, what are we gonna do? And then, you know, all of a sudden we had dozens of new families to follow up with. And you have to have systems for that because if it's one person, it's just all gonna break down or just, you know, if you're flying by the seat of your pants, it gets worse. - Yeah, go ahead on. - Mergers and acquisitions, which is interesting because I have heard a number of leaders who are like, well, we're not growing, so we're just gonna launch another campus. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, time out, time out. You wanna rethink that. But you said for a dying church, like merger and acquisition is a good idea. And I come out of a tradition where if you have two dying churches and I was part of a mainline church and we saw this all the time, but, you know, you got two churches of like 40, 70 people. And it's like, well, if we come together, we'll be 110 people and we'll merge that way, but it never really works out that way in that kind of situation. What was a Lyle Schaller said years ago, you shrink to the size of the largest congregation, like basically people just disappear and you import all your dysfunction and so on. That is not the kind of merger and acquisition you're talking about, is it? - No, and this, you know, care, we should have just a whole interview on mergers 'cause that's such a big topic. - Okay, we'll do that. - But you're right, what you just described was the typical mergers of the past, which everyone agrees was not a successful strategy. But the new, the mergers we're seeing today and Warren Byrd and my co-author on our, on my book on church mergers better together, we started to see him through leadership network, meet through my consulting, a dramatic increase in church mergers. He called me a few years ago, said, Jim, are you seeing a lot of mergers in your multi-site consulting? I said, yeah, a lot. He said, so are we, we had to write a book about it. But so we went to research on the topic and the overwhelming conclusion about church mergers in the past was it's a failed strategy. And it's just what Lyle Schaller described. It was basically like two drowning men grabbing onto each other, just to survive at the expense of the other, and they ended up both drowning. But the kind of mergers we're seeing today are more, those are more survival-driven, more really about trying to preserve kind of an old, failed strategy of the past. But the mergers we're seeing today are more mission-driven, where often it is a church that's in trouble or in decline or stock, but who joins a growing, thriving church and doesn't become one church in one location, becomes one church in two locations as a multi-site outcome. The leading, we always talk about an every merger. There's a lead church and a follow or a joining church. In our survey, we did a national survey of churches and gone through mergers. The overwhelming majority of these mergers were not initiated by the lead church, but they were by the joining church. So this is not about takeovers, or going, you know, hostile takeovers, or acquiring as many churches and buildings as we can. But often it starts with the stalker declining church initiating this conversation. But we're seeing a lot of, we're seeing this happen a lot, yes. - I've got friends who have had that happen. We pray that that happens at our church. It hasn't happened so far. But basically, you know, a church with land and a building and money, but not a lot of people or an aging group of people goes to a growing church that's reaching young families and doing a great job and often doesn't have lots of money, just, you know, lots of vision, lots of people. And says, "Hey, would you take us over?" And it's almost like a surrender. It's almost like, you know, if you want to use corporate language, a hostile takeover where, okay, your board is going to step aside, our board is going to come in, and they basically flip the keys. It's like, we can't drive this thing anymore, so you guys drive it. And missionally motivated, it is a surrender of what God has given them to a church that can probably use it for the next generation, which I think is phenomenal. - Yeah, no, the surrender's the right word. What somebody has to surrender and give up control. And, but it's a benevolent, and it's something that where this works well is when they embrace the lead church. They love the lead church. And we, you know, want to be an expression, a campus of this church that we're joining. So this is happening a lot. 37% of all multi-site campuses have come as a result of a church merger or acquisition. - Wow. - And this is growing. You know, 80% of the churches in America today, Carrie, as Tom said last week, Tom Rayner are throwing signs of sickness. Many of them are in decline. Many of them have facilities in desperate need of a vibrant ministry. And then they're, you know, they're 20% of the churches in America today that are growing, vibrant, and they're often looking for space. And so there's a huge win-win kingdom-wise, when those two churches can find each other. So that's what we're seeing, and that's keeping us very busy with my team, it's a lot of church merger conversations that mostly end up in a multi-site outcome. But sometimes it's like a church planter at a school and he's growing, and there's a nearby church of 50 years old, 100 years old in decline. And sometimes that's, you know, that becomes a nice solution where they need a building. That declining church needs a pastor. The church planter needs a building. There's a huge win-win there, so. - Yeah. Wouldn't it be cool, Jim, and I, like you, I care a lot about the kingdom of God. If, as a result of this, I'm sure there's some listeners, some leaders right now who are like, hey, we're that church. Like we're not growing. We have a bit of money in the bank. We got a building that we can't fill. Wouldn't it be great if those leaders looked around and said, where is a progressive growing church that we have confidence in that God is using, that we could flip the keys to, and just kind of surrender and say, hey, it's yours. And we will join in what God is doing through you. I mean, I think that would advance the cause of the church so much. - Well, you know, I'm all over the country, and I'm in Canada often as well in the past, but I have an associate there that your old colleague, Rich Burch, that. - Yeah, Rich. - He does a lot of the work for us in Canada, but in terms of multi-siding. - Being a Canadian. - Yeah. - Rich, yeah. - So I'm not going to Canada as much these days, 'cause I think he's better there than I would be. But every community across the North America, and certainly in the States, there's a strong vibrant church. Or several, several. We often hear about all the churches in decline and all that, and church attendance is down, and there's some factors that there's a lot of truth and a lot of that. But, you know, 20% of the churches in America is not a small number that are growing, that are vibrant. And every community in the country, urban, suburban, and rural has some of those churches. And so there are options for churches in decline, you know, to join with a church like that. And one of the reasons we wrote the book was just to give pastors, church leaders permission to even consider this as an option. - Okay, so we will link to that book, by the way, better together in the show notes. And everything Jim and I talk about will be on the show notes. And Rich was like episode eight, I think, of this podcast. He was one of the early pioneers, so great friend and was with our staff for a while. And just a great leader. So-- - He is. - Yeah, yeah, super guy. So before we get on to what's next in multi-site, for the leaders who are going, 'cause I know there's some who are like, "Okay, we're right on that bubble "and I don't even know that we should do it or not." You talked about, you know, growing churches, definitely it's an option of maximizing your facility for stuck churches. It could be an option, as long as you're fundamentally healthy. What are two or three of the other criteria that you think really should be in place? Talked about systems already. For you to become a multi-site, or at least be considering it as a viable option. - Okay, so maybe some bigger picture issues. Churches that are growing, typically I hear this language, they are pastor-led, board-protected or board-governed. And so you need to have a governance structure that allows a church staff to lead sometimes in some of our denominational structures. And I work with United Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans at all. Sometimes our structures get in the way, but even non-denominational churches can create kind of an old structure. So many of our structures are inherited from 100 years ago when churches were small and, you know, big churches 100 people, 200 people. And so that's another issue to make and hold back a church for multi-siding. I always tell churches, if you're not healthy, get healthy first then multi-side. This is a, this is a growth vehicle. It's not a growth engine. It's not a startup engine for growth, but it's more of a vehicle that will accommodate and even accelerate growth. - Yeah, I think that's a good word because otherwise you multiply your dysfunction, right? You spread your dysfunction, you spread your ill health, you spread your division. And I think micromanaging boards or boards that really fundamentally don't trust your staff, that becomes impossible because, you know, multi-side, once you get to a certain size, it's just so much beyond your control that you just can't control it. Or you will try to control it to the point where the church shrinks back down to the size where it can be controlled, which I think is dangerous. So let's talk about the future because, you know, I don't know whether anybody sees more of the trends in multi-side in North America than, or even maybe globally, than you get to, Jim, given your focus and your specialty. So I love thinking about the future. I'm a futurist to my strength finders. So what are some of the innovative edges of the multi-side movement that you are seeing? Because it does, it's not only evolved, it continues to evolve and change. - That's a great question. You know, when this movement began, the early pioneers, I was in that batch as in the '90s, it really took off in the turn of the century. It seems so strange to say it doesn't. - Yeah, that's right, way back when. - It really was a paradigm shifting step in the church in America, for sure. It changed how we think and do church. In the same way, back in the '70s and '80s, when I started out as a pastor, in the '80s, the hottest trend was multiple services. - You know, it's hard to, you know, I've never heard that described as a trend, but you're right, that probably was a trend, right? We're gonna add two services. Come off the divine hour. - And there was, yeah, there was a lot of pushback on that, you know, to use two services and then they had to do dual Sunday school and all that. And there was pushback, then a Saturday night became an option and there was a lot of pushback on that. So, but today, in a lot of ways, I think the multi-site movement has become like those multiple services. Today, any stable or solid and certainly growing church is gonna have multiple services, at least two. It's not even a question. - No, no, absolutely. - And so I think today, we're seeing now 15, 20 years into this movement, healthy or stable growing churches are all gonna be, as Alicia Networks had it well a few years ago, they're either already multi-siding, they're planning on multi-siding or they're thinking about it. And so it's become a mainstay staple for growing churches. - And do you have to be a certain size? Let me assert an energy. But like, do you have to, like, if you're 100, should you be thinking a multi-site or do you have to wait to 500 in attendance, weekend attendance? - Well, you know, survey revealed that the average size is around 1,000, 1,200. So, and so when I see that ice has a lot to do with what we talked about earlier, they're big enough to have thought through their, who they are, what they do well and the structures that they've put in some infrastructure and all that sort of thing. But do you have to be that size? I used to say, yes, you should be that size, but I'm increasingly, there are other ways to start multi-siding less than that. When I've been working in Europe for the last few years and most of the churches there are not 1,000 plus churches. So how do you multi-site when you're 200, 300 people? But so there, I think one way is through mergers, multi-siding through mergers is one way to do that. There's a hybrid way of multi-siding church planting. That's another long conversation where you're raising up people from scratch like a church planner does, but you're multi-site by being centrally governed, you know? So, there's some of those ways. Now, but a lot of the emerging and I think will become the dominant, are becoming the dominant multi-site churches in the country. I think of churches like Perry Nobles. I think he started his first site. He thought we're gonna be a multi-site church even before he even had one site. - Yeah, yeah. - And I think that's the next way of church leaders. I was with a church in one life church in Evansville, Indiana. They're four years old. They have three locations. They're 2,300 in attendance. They have until recently no site specific staff, but they have about a dozen central staff. - Wow. - And central staff. They would describe themselves as central network children, central network students, central network groups. And they just would, they serve all the campuses and their rented facilities renovated and their edgy as any mega church would be in terms of technology and quality and very next generation oriented. And I just think that's the picture of the future. And so they weren't a mega church. I mean, they started, they grew to 1,000 plus, 1,400, I think, when they launched their first campus within a year and they launched a 1,000 and then they launched another 1,000 of that. I think this started again with a big mega campus and then we'll spin off these satellites around and all that. That's the old model. As I mentioned earlier, multi-site changed how we think and do church. Now we're on the cusp, I believe, of another paradigm shift, how we think and do multi-site. - Yeah. - And it's more about, we've done multi-site by addition, basically. And majority of multi-site churches, 85% of them have one or two campuses. - Right. - So only 15% get beyond three locations, but those who get beyond three tend to do more than three. - Okay, so once you hit that, you're at a tipping point. - That fourth campus, that third multi-site, but that fourth campus, which is really their fourth multi-site, if you think about it, is a game changer, very few get there. And as you said earlier, it's very complicated at two. And this is why most get stuck at one or two additional campuses. But when you get to that third one, you don't get there until you say, you know, we've got to change how we think and do church, it's our structure. And a lot of the multi-site churches today, they've not really changed in their fundamentally, their monocyte structure thinking. - No, 'cause you can spread over two or three locations, but it's kind of like a little bit if you follow the church size stuff, and we've talked about that in previous episodes, but like, you know, you can get away with some of your bad habits when you're two or three hundred, but once you pass four or five hundred, you just won't stay there unless you fundamentally change your style of leadership and how you organize the church and how you structure the church, because that's just the tipping point. So what is it, if I can just ask on that, what is the key, what are some of the key differences then between churches that will do two or three locations as opposed to foreign beyond? What changes? - Well, so much of church growth in America today has been, in North America has been growth by addition. But the next big way that's coming, I think in the multi-site movement is where churches that have been successful in that, growing by adding and even adding on steroids, it's moving from an addition culture to a multiplication culture. So you add by, you grow by adding and acquiring, but you multiply by releasing and sending, and that's to me is the big shift that's coming in the multi-site movement. - So say that one more time. That's a really good principle. You grow by adding and acquiring. We add disciples, we add converts to disciples, members, services, campuses, and that's all good. And that's what local churches should be doing. But you multiply by releasing people, resources, and sending them. And it's a, there's a small but growing number of churches that are doing both. On a micro level, you grow by addition, but on a macro level, you multiply by releasing and sending. And so I'm working with exponential right now with Todd Wilson, an exponential with identifying, we have about 20 churches that are tremendously successful in multi-citing. Anywhere from 3,000 to 20,000 people, attending and multiple number of campuses, these churches are tend to be led by apostolic-type leaders. - And then we say apostolic. I mean, I think a lot of us know what that means, but like what functionally would be some of the characteristics of an apostolic-type leader? - Well, I think fundamentally, I think about the Apostle Paul when he said, I bear daily the burden of all my churches, churches, plural. And I think of, obviously he was an apostle, but I think someone with a senior pastor with an apostolic impulse or tendency is someone who is not content just to be a great pastor of a great church in his local community. There's nothing wrong with that. I want that for every local church to be at least that, but an apostolic leader or pastor or someone who says, you know, I want to multiply that and reproduce that. They have a desire to create a movement of congregations and movement of churches. And what we're seeing in these kind of cutting-edge, multiplication-oriented kind of multi-site churches is that they have leaders like that. They're birthing campuses that birth campuses, and they plant churches. They're involved with planting churches that plant churches. And so it's a both-ant. And they're in multi-siding campuses and church plants are different pathways, but this is the same outcome. They're new congregations in a community that didn't exist before, but there are two different strategies for them. And we're seeing a small but growing number of churches that say, you know, we're not satisfied just with one or two or three campuses. We wanna be a, we wanna create a movement with our church and spread our church with multiple congregations through multi-siding and church planting, reproducing themselves across a broad region or beyond. There's a handful of those churches in, so we're meeting this next year, and the learning community to learn from one another, and hopefully these are some of the trailblazers that we hope that they will work with us in creating a map for others to follow. - Okay, that's cool. Now, imagine there are some leaders listening who would say, well, isn't that just church planting? I mean, isn't that like, okay, so we have five campuses and we planted 20, you know, independent churches, but multi-sights different, isn't it? It's not just church planting. Is that, is central governance the key in that? - Yeah, central governance is what makes multi-sight multi-sight. - Okay. - It's not whether you do video or live teaching, it's not how close to how far, it's not even what, if you have the same names over all the campuses, it's one thing that makes multi-sight church, multi-sight in its central governance. - So it's basically one elder board, one key directional team or leadership team or executive team, and then you might even have like regional staff, but they report to one central accountability group, and usually unified budgeting as well, correct? - Yes, yes, one budget is part of the multi-sight model. And so, and again, that gets back to the central government. I like to tell churches, if you're gonna multi-sight, ultimately a local site pastor at a local campus, the decisions concerning that campus are not decided by that campus, it's decided by the central leadership team. - Right, so that's what makes it different. And you're seeing in the multiplication side of what's next in multi-sight, that that is still centrally governed and centrally funded and supported. - But you'll have churches I've described, you'll also have a church planting strategy, parallel to their multi-siting strategy. And so, the difference between a church plant and a multi-sight campus is central governance versus self-governing. But what we're seeing in these kind of churches that are doing both, and that they're providing some central support to these church plants. And, you know, a good example, this is Mars Hill, and it's heyday, their vision was to have 50 multi-sight campuses across the nation by 2020, but 1,000 church plants through the Acts 29 Network. And so, they were doing both and, that's the kind of thing we're seeing. And that clearly was, you know, had a lot of the characteristics of a movement making church. But there are other churches that are doing that, and that Matt Chandler down at Village Church has a very similar strategy. - Yeah. - You know, they have a strong church planting commitment and strategy as well as multiple campuses. Mark Job and new life church there in Chicago. I mean, there's a lot of churches that are community Christian Dave Ferguson, which is one of the early pioneers in all this. So, we are seeing some churches that are gonna move beyond just addition, and they're gonna move to multiplication, and it's all about releasing and sending while they're building and, you know, growing locally or regionally. But they're not just, they're not content with just multi-sight success. - Now, how do you produce enough leaders to fuel that kind of a movement? Because most of the multi-sight people I talk to, they're like, man, if we had five more campus pastors, we'd have five more campuses. - Well, and that's exactly, that's the key to, I think, a multiplication model that you bake in reproduction at every level, in every ministry, every step of the way. You're baking in reproduction multiplication so that you have this part, you're having pipelines, not just the preacher or this campus pastor, but it's the worship people, it's the children's people, it's the, you know, everybody's reproducing themselves. Living things are meant to be blessed, to be a blessing, to be fruitful and to reproduce, to multiply. It's so, but most churches, I like to say, are like, mules, you know, they're hardworking, they're stubborn, and they don't reproduce. - True, that's good, most churches are like mules. - Wow, that's good. - There's a handful growing, and we wanna get those churches in a room three times over nine months, and over a couple days, and really just figure out, what does a multiplying movement-making, multi-site church should look like? And what's the roadmap that we could, that we could come out of these gatherings that others could follow, as the early trailblazers? So if anybody in your audience would fit the category of at least four campuses, has an apostolic kind of orientation in their leadership, as is involved with some form of another of church planting, contact us. It's an invitation only at this stage, but we hope it will create something that will be open to anyone. But if anybody thinks they're in that category, I'd love to talk with them. - Okay, and what we'll do is we'll link to Jim's contact information in the show notes. So I don't have an episode number yet while we're recording this, but if you look well toward the end of the podcast, I'll have that for you when I record the outro, but- - Carrie, we're calling this radical multi-site. - Okay, cool. - So that's the best word, radical multi-site. Again, I've observed this for the last several years, that most multi-site churches, though they are succeeding even with one or two campuses, they're not maximizing this model. And I think at its core, the essence, the multiplication, is the kind of the premise in here, and yet most churches are not functioning in a multiplication mindset, they're more in addition. Now, addition's better than subtraction. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. There's a lot of churches subtracting. - I just think we're on the cusp now of another paradigm shift of how we think and do multi-site. - Cool. Any other things you see in multi-site, I mean, that's pretty big in and of itself, Jim. What are some other trends you might be seeing right now? - Well, again, before you hit 'em, we're gonna see more mergers. - Yeah. - You know, 80% of churches are in trouble. There's a lot of church real estate that needs, that's not being utilized, that can be utilized through mergers, whether in every community in America has growing dynamic churches. There's a, that's, we're gonna see that even, I think that they may be bigger than multi-site. - Right, right. - 'Cause every multi-site church is gonna be considering mergers as an option, but a lot of these 80% churches are gonna start thinking about this in a different way than they did in the past. And so I think that's a huge trend that is not slowing down, and that's what's keeping my team really busy these days. And, and myself. But the, I think as I already mentioned, multi-siding is now becoming mainstream. - Yeah. - You know, if you're, if you're, basically solid, healthy church, you're gonna think about it. And you're gonna have opportunities, even if you're not thinking about it, then you're gonna be presented to you. Now I always tell churches, don't respond, don't let an opportunity drive your strategy, let your strategy surface opportunities. That's a bad way to get into multi-siding. Oh, someone offered their building, I guess we should do it, you know. - Right, yeah, yeah, I do a lot of assessment consulting with churches that aren't doing so well. Not so often, they kind of backed into multi-siding and now it's not going so well. - Right, because you reproduce your health or your ill health, right, your problems or your opportunities. Hey, let me just ask you a question too, because I think you're right. Like, you know, the whole merger acquisition thing is gonna be huge as dying or unhealthy churches kind of go, okay, we wanna flip the keys too. How are you seeing denominations respond to that? Because if you're an independent or congregationalist church, it's easy enough to do, you have a meeting, you have a vote and, you know, here are the keys. But I know, you know, I've got some experience in this inter-denomination, often the denomination will own the building and I know in some denominations in the US and Canada, that's been a major issue and then, you know, it ends up becoming a craft shop or a cafe rather than used for the kingdom or it gets sold and demolished and turned into condos because the denomination needs the money. Are you seeing denominations start to move on that or what do you see? Yes, you know, yes, we are seeing this. Denominations are often slow to move on some of these kind of innovative things, but it is increasingly, there are progressive denominational leaders that are seeing multi-siding and this new kind of mission-driven merger is a way that perhaps we could revitalize our declining churches, which every denomination has, you know, a majority are in trouble, just like Tom Rayner mentioned last week on your podcast. But also all of them have some dynamic churches as well. So a lot of them are saying, if we could tag them up, you know, maybe that's a way and I speak to a lot of the denominational leaders, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, some of the others to talk about this. Now one of the things is they, there's a lot of mind-shifting that has to happen for them in terms of their scorecard that they're keeping on their churches. If you're a district supervisor or a district superintendent and you've got a hundred churches in your district and two of them merge, now you have 99, that didn't feel right on their scorecard. And yet now that maybe they have stronger church there in the 99, so they gotta be changing, rethinking what we're keeping score on. Is it the number of churches or is it the number of disciples that we're making? - Yes. And so maybe fewer churches that are stronger is a healthier thing. A lot, I like to say a lot of churches need a proper Christian burial. But the nice thing about churches, they can have a rebirth. And now we have a savior who's get a resurrection. - Absolutely. Now a lot of these churches are leave their denomination, so that becomes a problem. And they join with another church that's not in their denomination. Now some denomination, and I've seen it all over the map, they're like, thank you, we couldn't handle, we can't afford to absorb this facility. Or others fight for them, and they don't want to lose it. And so that's where our team, and we work real closely with the church law group, and so through a lot of those issues, and it's very important that we do everything proper, according to the bylaws and constitution of a church. And every church is unique and different, and has those kinds of connections that they have to be thought through and merger. - Now I think, you know, denominationalism, and if I can editorialize for a second, you know, protecting our turf makes more sense when you're in a Christian era, the Christian era is gone. And, you know, when we're all kind of in the same boat, doesn't it make sense to kind of cooperate together and go, hey, we have more in common than what divides us. Let's figure out how to get some kingdom wins out of this, not just, you know, my little part of the kingdom wins. So that's cool. And I love to hear that denominations are being flexible on that, and being open to even, you know, wouldn't that be great if it really didn't matter what the label on the church was, as long as somehow the church, capital C got better as a result. - Okay. - Yeah, go ahead. - Thing about that, and our last survey with Leadership Network, the second largest denomination represented among multi-site churches was the United Methodist. - Yeah, isn't that true? - And a lot of my clients are United Methodist churches, and they're some of the most dynamic, exciting churches. And, you know, every denomination had a lot of the structures that they created in the past made sense in the past. And so there's a lot of rethinking on this. I always like to say, let's create structures that empower, not embalm. And so at one time these structures of the past made sense, you have to recalibrate. I always like to tell my Methodist clients, so we need to start looking more like John Wesley again, you know. - Yeah, exactly. Who's all about expansion and multiplication and everything. - And everything. - And they resonate with that, and they all agree with that too, by the way. - Yeah, yeah, that's true. So I know there'll be some leaders going, okay, there'll be a few who are like, okay, multi-site is not for us, but I bet, yeah, there are some who listen to this interview. And as we get into the home stretch, we're thinking, okay, I think maybe we thought it was for mega churches, or maybe we thought we had to be over 1,000 people, but, you know, we're healthy and we're kind of out of room, or we're still healthy and we're not growing, but we know we got people driving 30 minutes to get to our church, maybe we should locate there. Just so they know, what are some of the initial challenges that they will encounter if they go multi-site in the first few years? What are the typical surprises or roadblocks that churches encounter? - The most important question to go on multi-site is why? Why are you doing this? That's the first question to address. And it's gotta be more compelling than we're out of room and out of space, although that's not every church is out of room and out of space these days. But the right answer on that is because we become convinced that this is a vehicle that can help us reach more people and reach and serve more people in our larger community. And, you know, across the nation, we know it's about 80, eight out of 10, Americans don't go to anybody's church. That to me is the compelling reason. And you can just do the math in your own local community, add up the population and then add up all the local churches in your community. We know the average church size in America is 75 people. So if you have a hundred churches in your county, then that tells you how many people are in church on Sunday, multiply that times two to cover everybody and prepare that against your local population, you know, from the census. And that'll tell you what your redemptive potential is in your backyard. - We just did that. We're 96% unchurched. I used to say 93 and we actually did the math and it's 96% of people will not be in church. And so, you know, it's funny because at Kinexis, one in 15 people, this is prior to our building, but one in 15 people who attended church attended our church. And you could see that as a finish line. Like, that's awesome. We've accomplished our mission. But then you look at the fact that 96% of people don't go to any church and you're like, we haven't even put a dent in that. Like, my goodness. And I think if you start to see it that way, multi-site becomes a tremendous vehicle. - We launched our first Willa Creek campus in Wheaton, which is not where we wanted to go for our first campus, but it's where we were able to get a facility. And the reason why we didn't want to go there, because it was 55% unchurched, which is still, you know, a large number. But the rest of Chicago was about 80% unchurched. - Wow. - But we went there and we've launched and we did well. I was just back there working with another church now, Wheaton Bible Church that's starting to the multi-site path. And the demographic has shifted to 90% unchurched. - Wow. - And Carrie, here's the cool thing about this though. Most of that's come from all the immigrant, the large Hispanic community that's moved into that community, Somalia community as well, which I tell these churches that some of our best fruit is gonna be these immigrant groups because they're so open to change, so open to be mainstreamed. And if a church will welcome them, there's a huge potential, and they are. They have half of their church is Hispanic now. And they have a Hispanic pastor and one half of their building is for the Hispanic side, the other half is the English side. And so they're positioned well for that. But just to give you that said, so the first question is why multi-site? - Okay. - That's the most important question. The second, the most difficult, the most important decision you'll make going multi-site is the campus pastor. - Mm-hmm. - That's the most important decision you'll make in going multi-site. So you wanna be building the, who's in your pipeline now? 87% of all multi-site campus pastors were internal hires. They were already on the staff or in the church. And so it's all about the DNA, knowing them, and their ability to be a high capacity leader who has the DNA of the church. And so that's the most important decision you'll make going multi-site. The most difficult obstacle in going multi-site is finding a facility. - Yeah. - If you close down and delays, sets back a church is the facility, finding a facility. You would think that would be an easy part, but that's the thing that causes more delays. After you have a place to meet and a pastor to lead, the most important success factor is launching strong, the strong core of people. - So you wanna have that critical mass on data? - Critical mass. Now, on a national average of 75 people, that's adults and children and students. I like to suggest at least 100 people to launch with. - Yeah. - And I like to say the bigger, the baby in the womb, the healthier the birth. And so you wanna launch strong. They could get that critical mass. Your first two years are the most critical. If you're not seeing explosive growth, and we're seeing on an average of 30% in the first year growth, second year, 25%. If you're not getting that in those first two years, it's really hard to get that momentum. But if you see that have that kind of experience, that kind of growth, and then it will slow down. - Sure. - The percentage. Matter of fact, our latest survey said that multi-site churches are growing on an overall average of 14% a year. - Wow. - Which is phenomenal. 5% is considered a growing church. Now, that's, you know, all campuses combined overall for 14%. - But take it. - Yeah. - Yeah, you'll take it. - In this age, that's pretty good. - And then I think the last thing to consider, and after you've got launched, the biggest challenge in multi-siding is navigating that paradigm shift from monocyte structure thinking to multi-site. And that's why most are stuck or choose to stay at one or two sites, 'cause they're just not really willing to change or able to change their structure to support a multi-site model. I always say to churches, the fun, easy part of multi-siding is starting campuses. You know, I always say, you know, making babies is the fun part. It's raising them, managing them is the more difficult part. And that's where most churches get bogged down in multi-site. And so when we come and work for the church, we try to start to be a little proactive, not just getting the campus launched, but setting them up structurally to think structurally differently post-launch. And 'cause most of the churches I taught to say, "Oh yeah, we wanna do multiple campuses, "but very few get beyond one or two." - Yeah. Well, this is great. I mean, I feel like this could be a two-hour conversation. - I think it was. - It's fantastic, it's fantastic. I know people are gonna wanna learn more what's easiest place to find you. And, you know, an easy way to contact you, particularly if they're those church leaders who are listening who are like, "You know what, I think I fit that study group "you're doing with exponential." - Well, they can contact me at multi-site-solutions.com. That's my website. And that's multi-site-solutions.com, all one word. Or my email me at jim@multisite-solutions.com. That's probably the best two ways to contact me. You mentioned earlier about a church may be thinking where we big enough or whatever. I tell churches if you're around 500 and you're thinking multi-site, that's a good time to bring me in or someone from my team. 'Cause you're not maybe ready to about 1,000, but we can start laying the right groundwork to set you up to go multi-site that you want. So you won't have to undo things when you get around 1,000 in attendance. 'Cause if multi-site's in your future, it affects your staffing strategy, your building strategy, your technology and your strategy. And so the sooner you know when it's gonna take to be a successful multi-site church, even if you're not ready, you know, within the next few months, the better you'll do when you are ready to go. So that's kind of a starting point. And then we also do a lot of assessments of current churches that they call and say, Jim, it's not going as well. We've got one or two campuses, it's not going as well. Could you come and look under the hood with us? And so we do an assessment and evaluation of their situation and kind of compare them against what we know are best practices for multi-site churches. Others will say, we've got a couple of campuses that's going better than we imagined and we don't have a clue, we don't know what we're doing. We don't wanna mess this up. Could you come help us figure out, you know, how to keep this on track and do more? So, but, and then we have the whole merger consulting as well piece that's been a wrinkle of this movement. That's keeping us very busy and we're loving it, so. - That's good. And your great follow on Twitter too, multi-site guy. And is it church merger guy? - No, it's merger guru. - Merger guru, there you go. But we'll link to your social media in the show notes as well. So, Jim, super helpful and actually really exciting. It's just great to think about the future and to see it strong in the church. That really, really excites me. - I'm honored to be able to work with those kinds of churches. And yeah, I'm ecstatic about the future of the church. I think these are exciting days to be living in. And there's a lot of permission to think outside the box these days. And it's just so fun to get to work with mostly those kinds of churches. But thanks so much for the invitation to be with you today. And I look forward to our paths crossing more in the future. - Of course, absolutely. Jim, thanks so much. - Bye now. - I don't know whether you've ever done strength finders, but one of my top strengths is futurists. So I absolutely love conversations like this. Jim, thanks so much. That was fantastic. And I love thinking about what's next for the church. And I think our best days are ahead of us. I know a lot of doom and gloom these days in the church, but my goodness, I just think, if churches could really get together, and as we see growing churches continue to grow, and maybe if you're just one of those struggling churches and you're thinking, hmm, I wonder if we should just take our resources and flip the keys to another church that is really doing a great job reaching the next generation. Man, if that happened even two or three times as a result of this time that we spent together this week, that would just be incredible. So maybe that's your next step. Maybe that's your follow up. If you want more or you want to connect with Jim, you can just go directly to the show notes. All the links are there. It's just carrynewhop.com/episode43. And we are back, surprise, surprise. You're gonna have to guess, okay, what episode next week? 44 and episode 44. Gonna have a great conversation with Jeannie Stevens. And Jeannie is a church planter in downtown Chicago. She's doing urban ministry along with her husband, Jared, doing a fantastic job. And we're gonna talk all about that journey for those of you who are planting churches or maybe you're thinking you've got a call or you've started a new position. We're gonna talk about moving from comfort to courage. How do you go from your nice little status quo position, which she had to something bold and brave and terrifying? So we're gonna talk about that with Jeannie Stevens next week. You're gonna love my interview with Jeannie. And that's episode 44. Best way to make sure you never miss it is simply to subscribe. All you have to do is go on to iTunes and hit the big subscribe button. It's free, then automatically these show up in your phone or whatever device you're using, wherever you carry iTunes or Stitcher or tune in radio with you. It'll show up every Tuesday automatically. So thanks again to everybody who's leaving ratings and reviews. And remember to register for the Orange Tour now, just go to orangetour.org and make sure you get to a city near you. And I can't wait to hang out with so many of you this fall. So we're back next Tuesday. Thanks so much. And I really hope this has helped you lead like never before. (upbeat music) - You've been listening to the Carry Newhof Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]