The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 040 – Churches That Reach Millennials–An Interview with Geoff Surratt
[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the Carey Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carey Newhoff. Well, hey, everybody. And welcome to episode 40 of the podcast. My name is Carey Newhoff. And I'm so glad that you've taken some time to be with us today on this episode. And I really hope this time together today helps you and your team lead like never before. Hey, today we are tackling one of the big questions that just seems to be surfacing more and more every time I talk to leaders. And that is, how do you reach millennials? And we've already had a couple of episodes that have touched on this. Actually, a lot of our episodes have touched on this. Episode 29 with John Stickle was particularly helpful, I think, in thinking through millennials. But we talked about it a few times. But it's like one of those conversations you have at your leadership table over and over again. It's just good to turn it and look at it in fresh ways. And we've got, I think, a really fascinating interview today with a great guy. His name is Jeff Sarat. And Jeff's been a friend for a number of years. He is an author, a speaker, a church planter, an expert on multi-site chances are you've heard him speak read his blog or read one of his books because he's just that prolific. And he's got some really interesting thoughts. And he's not a millennial. As we'll talk about in the interview, I'm at the very edge of Generation Next. I think Jeff might be a year or two older than me. So technically, he's sort of right on that bubble between Boomer and Gen X. But he's really passionate about making sure that the church is equipped to reach the next generation. Basically, people under 30, under 35, depending on how you define millennials. And they're a generation that seems to be both engaging and walking away at intense levels. So gonna be fascinating this conversation. And Jeff has always got a few surprises. So I think you're really gonna enjoy it. And I hope this helps your team think through some of the specifics in terms of creating a church that millennials love to attend and love to be a part of. I think that's really key to it. So get ready for that. That's what's coming down the pipe today. Hey, a couple of things going on in my life I just wanna share with you. First of all, thank you to everybody who just continues to be so encouraging. I mean, all your shout outs on Twitter, on the blog on carrynewhoff.com. And man, a lot of you have been leaving reviews again and iTunes, just thank you so much for that. So appreciate it. Every time you share, every time you subscribe, all of which is free. It just gets us a podcast in front of leaders and it keeps growing all the time, which is amazing. And that's just so encouraging and a reward in and of itself. And also, I just want you to know, have you discovered Periscope yet? I've been on it for a couple of months and did recently a couple of live Q&A, like Ask Me Anything sessions on Periscope. And it was so much fun. It was just great. So really hard for me, super ADD to actually talk and read at the same time. But as questions came in, it was a lot of fun. So if you're not on Periscope, download the app. It's basically linked into Twitter. And if you're on Twitter, you can be on Periscope, super easy. And then if you set the notifications on your phone, it tells you when somebody on Periscope or how there's going live. And so that's an easy way to track. I'll be doing some of those this summer. So that's an easy way for you and I to interact in more of a live thing. And speaking of actually interacting, did you know that I'm gonna be speaking in about, I think it's eight cities this fall on the Orange Tour and would love to have you join, well, there's gonna be 15 cities on the Orange Tour. I'm gonna be at about half of them 'cause kind of have a day job I need to stick around for. So that'll work in the schedule, but I'll be in places like Atlanta and in Irvine, California, September 22nd and 23rd. We have a very special event at Mariner's Church. It's two days. I'm gonna be there building into senior leaders. Also gonna be in places, I think I'm going to Nashville this year and we'll be in Texas and in Austin and also in Dallas and a few other cities. So you can go to orangetour.org and you can get all the information there. It's a super fun way of just interacting usually for a day. And I love just hanging out with you guys. So if you wanna be on tour this fall, there's special promotional rates right now. Just go to orangetour.org and you can jump in on that. And in the meantime, why don't we jump right into my interview? Here's Jeff Sarat. Super excited today to have Jeff Sarat on the podcast. Jeff, really glad you're here. - And Kerry, this is such an honor to be with you on the podcast and I love the podcast. And yeah, thanks for having me today. - Hey, it's been fun. We've known each other for what? Like four or five years or something like that? I think we met at Orange Conference. - Yeah, we met several years ago at Orange and have followed you guys ever since then. - Well, likewise. And I mean, I think I've followed you before. I met you. So there you go. And tell us, I know a lot of leaders will be familiar with who you are, especially in church world, Jeff. But give everybody just some background. I mean, you come from a long history of preachers and that's kind of what you do in church leader. - Yeah, we have kind of an interesting family. We have about 30 Sarats across the country, Pastor in some capacity and one way or the other. What's funny is, it's crazy. - It's crazy. - It's like a franchise. - It is, it's funny is it's, we run the gamut of theology from the way I say it is we go from angry reform to crazy charismatic and everything in between. So I grew up in a pastor's home. My grandfather was a pastor. And I became a youth and children's pastor, straight out of actually a quick college early to go save the world. So I became a youth pastor, spent 10 years doing that. Let a church, kind of a church plant/restart for a while. There were 11 people at the church when I went there. So it doesn't count as a church plant. And then went to work. - Counts of my books. (laughing) - Well, I quickly grew it from 11 to nine. So that was my success. So back in the 90s, I went to work for a church in South Carolina. My brother had started called Seacoast Church. And that was a lot of fun. I mean, it was a ride. We saw the church just explode and grow. And in the middle of that whole thing, we ran out of room in our building. And back in 2001, 2002, the idea of doing a church in more than one location really wasn't happening. I mean, there were a few churches around the country doing very few. In fact, even at North Point, they were one site at that point. They had two auditoriums, but one site. And so we didn't know what else to do. We were out of ideas. So we started another location. And from there, it kind of blew up. And eventually we had 14 locations across three states. And my job with that was fun. My job was to find new locations, find new campus pastors, start the new sites and oversee them. And so in that, wrote a couple of books about multi-site, which was a lot of fun with a couple other guys. - Yeah, you did like a multi-site road trip, and then what was it, multi-site road trip revisited? - Actually, the first one was a multi-site revolution. And then we did multi-site road trip, yeah. And then I wound up out at Saddleback for Rick Warren. That was awesome. I mean, Rick is just, he's just an amazing leader with a new idea every hour. And so for a little while, I was his church plant director, pastor of church planning, oversaw their sites. And then my wife and I actually moved to Denver, which is where we live now. She became the CEO of a group called MOPS International. And for two, three years, I've been doing coaching and consulting and also work with a local church here in Denver on staff, helping them with church planning. - That's great, yeah. And a lot of leaders might know your wife, too, Sherry Surat, who was known before she became CEO of MOPS and has written a few books herself, so. - Yeah, and this isn't a joke. I am now known as Sherry's husband. And so people have no idea who I am, but when they find out, I'm married to Sherry, they want to talk to me. - Oh, there you go. But you got a lot of experience, church planting and a lot of experience. I mean, at Seacoast, you guys were on the cutting edge of multi-site, like really inventing the genre as, yeah, as it was being developed. - Yeah, it was a lot of fun because it was very, very new, very cutting edge. The, you know, we connected with several other leaders around the country at the same time. The guys at North Point, the guys at Willow Creek, and Life Church. And what we all, the metaphor that we grabbed onto came from a TV commercial, and basically it was the idea of building an airplane while you're flying it. And that's how it felt. And I've told a lot of people, if we had had some of the how-to manuals that exist now on how to do multi-site, we never would have been able to do what we did because we didn't know we weren't supposed to do it that way. So I always encourage leaders to, yeah, look at the models, read the books, but you gotta figure out what works in your context. - Yeah. Well, and one of the things I always appreciated from what I know of Seacoast is you guys have done a great job of just like innovating on a dime. Like it doesn't have to be a $15 million drop every time you open the doors, right? And I think that's really encouraging me. Because sometimes you go and it's like, wow, you've got this 50,000 square foot building, you know, a year into your existence, that's now a new campus. And that's just like out of reach for people, so. - One of our favorite articles came out in a magazine, church magazine, and it described North Point as the Hilton of multi-site and Seacoast as the motel sick. And we took that as a huge compliment. We said, that's us, we'll leave the light on for ya. So yeah, our deal was, it wasn't because we were smart because we didn't have any money. So we always did it on the cheap. And that, what's fun is both models work and work well. - Kat, you actually reached thousands more people as a result. So, but what's interesting of course is now, we're not in the infancy stage of the multi-site movement anymore. And a lot of the church leaders who started that in the 90s and the 2000s are now in their 40s, 50s, and even 60s. And one of your areas of passion, and that's kind of a good segue, is you're really looking at millennials, which is kind of your kid's generation and so on. And how are we gonna pass this baton of church and faith to the next generation? - Yeah, absolutely. When I do this, I don't know if you guys are, I'm sure you carry, do the strength finder stuff. I love strength finders. - Yeah, yeah. - One of my top strengths or top strength is futuristic. So I live in the future to my detriment, but that's just where my head is all the time. - Me too. - It's a blessing and a curse, isn't it? - It is, it is, you know, yeah. And so I'm terrible at maintaining, but always feel, you know, what's next. And that's kind of how I felt about multi-site when we were doing it. It really felt like this is the beginning of something that could be pretty significant. I saw a survey the other day that said 10% of all Protestants in North America go to a multi-site church now. And I kind of have that same feel now that I had 15 years ago that we, there's something really new on the horizon and it has to do with what will the church look like in 10 years when most of the leaders at my age and older have kind of stepped off of the leadership scene and we see millennials more and more either taking the reins or not taking the reins. And so what will the church, what does the church do now to prepare for that? And then, you know, kind of interestingly, if we can peek around the corner, what do we think it'll look like? And so that's kind of picking up a lot of my thinking space over the last few months and the next few months, is just trying to talk to leaders, do research and just try to understand what do we think's next? - Well, I think that's a really important conversation too. And I know there's a lot of millennial church leaders and a lot of millennials who listen to this podcast and so grateful for that. But I think it has to be a dialogue that involves everybody, right? Like, I mean, to a certain extent, people in their 40s, 50s and 60s are sitting on the assets of the church and often in the seats of leadership on the elderboards or the senior leadership executive director, campus pastor positions. And sometimes that can create a lot of frustration for millennials because they're like, would you guys just get out of the way or, you know, your church is not our church. On the other hand, there's that sort of transfer of power. And I mean, I remember when I was in my twenties being frustrated and couldn't wait for somebody to give me a shot at leading something. And I didn't really know what I was doing, but like really grateful for the opportunity to lead. So it's a fun conversation. And you're actually working on a book that's gonna come out in what, 2016 or so on this whole subject. - Right, yeah. That's the thinking process kind of led me to say, you know, let's see if we can figure out a book on this. So yeah, I think sometime probably spring of 2016 we'll have a new book out talking about, you know, what could the future look like? - Now there've been a few books already on that. I mean, David Kyneman who's been a podcast guest before episode 24 and others have written on it. John Stickle, you know, sort of a millennial mega church pastor from Texas. He was on the show as well. I think episode 29 maybe? I don't know. Anyway, we've talked about this, but you've got a bit of a unique angle. So tell us how you're approaching the research and the study because it's not just, you know, here I am thinking about millennials and this is what I think works. You're actually doing some research. - Yeah, and I actually carry that. The big thing is, is my book will be way better than those other books. So we just. (laughing) - That's great. - No, I love the stuff that especially David has done. And a lot of what he has done will inform what I'm looking at. Really kind of my angle is I'm much more of a practitioner. And so I believe the research that says millennials are leaving the church in droves. What I'm kind of looking at is what are kind of the big trends among millennials. What are the high points that people agree? This is kind of a trend that millennials tend to lean into. And then at the same time, I'm looking at churches around the country that seem to be winning with millennials and looking at where do they overlap? Where do I see churches that are doing really well in an area that research says millennials kind of are drawn to that type of leadership. And so what I've done is identified nine or 10 of these leading trends and then identified nine or 10 churches, just really honestly carry friends of mine that really aren't most of the churches that I'm looking at aren't on the national church radar. - Yeah, they're not famous churches but famous leaders. - They're guys you've never heard of that are doing incredible work. And I'm talking to, what's fun is I'm talking to guys, one of the churches I'm talking to, the church is only one year old. And then other churches I'm talking to, the churches are 20, 30, 40 years old and everything in between. But just trying to kind of to give you the picture I have in my mind is let's look at 10 trends. Let's look at 10 churches that seem to be working well in this trend area. And you know, 10, 15 years from now, we'll look back and five of these things will have not played out. They'll really not be influenced in the church. Two of them will have been an influence but will turn out to be a fan. Two or three things could be very influential in where we're going. And so let's pay attention. - See, what I think, Jeff, is that that makes a great contribution to the research because we kind of know the demographic trends and David's actually your right has contributed in valuable research to that. And we know how millennials think or at least, you know, we have some evidence to that but nobody's really studied to my knowledge. Like who's knocking it out of the park with millennials? Who's actually connecting? And I think you're right. Some of those things are going to be the trends that you identify. Some of them are going to work for five years. Some of them we're going to look at and go, well, yeah, that would work for 20 minutes or whatever. But I think that's what makes this era exciting because I don't think anybody really knows what's next. Like I talked to a lot of church leaders and nobody's like, oh yeah, the next big wave that's going to reach hundreds of thousands or millions of people is X. So we need that. So let me ask you this. Are millennials checking out of the church? - Yeah, I think so. I think, Carrie, you've written some great stuff about that from your context in Canada where we see it probably more prevalent. I live in Denver, Colorado and here statistics say 90 to 95% of people in Colorado or in Denver especially have no connection to church at all. And so we're, I was in the Bible Belt for years where it was a very different kind of feel and we very much in Colorado, see millennials just not connected to church at all. And I think there's a couple of things. One is my wife through her organization. Mops has done a lot of study on young moms which are millennials. And what they're finding is the traditional thing that I grew up with when I was going through college and young in my ministry was, yeah, 18 year olds, 19 year olds go to college, they leave church, but then they get married. And then when they have the first kid that's when they go back to church. So yeah, that was the assumption. Exactly. So it's okay, you know, just wait till they have that kid and be ready for them when they come in have a great children's ministry. And what they're discovering is they're not coming back when they have that child. For one reason they're not coming back is they did, there's nothing to, they weren't there in the first place. Well, exactly, there's nothing to come back to. Exactly. Even the ones, here's what's fascinating Carrie, especially in the US, I mean, it's probably the same in Canada. Even kids who grow up quote in church get so involved, especially in youth sports, that from the time they're like 12 to the time they're 17, almost every weekend, they have a sports tournament, they're traveling. So even though their parents think they're raising in them in church, they're not, 'cause the kids aren't in church. And so there's really nothing. So they're not coming back 'cause they were never there in the first place. Yeah, it's kind of like we may even be affiliated with the church, but we never go there, you know. If we ever go to church, this is the church we go to, but we don't. Okay, so you're discovering that they are really checking out of the church. And I think you're right, there are regional variations. Like if you go to the Bible Belt and you spent time there, that's one thing, but you go to Colorado, anywhere on the West Coast, New England, Canada. And like the church, there's individual churches that are killing it with millennials, but a lot of people just walking away. So here's one thing I've been curious about. I just wanna bounce this off you. I read years ago that Thomas Jefferson once said, every generation needs a revolution, which is interesting from a founding father. But do you think it's a case that the millennials are just behaving like typical 20 year olds and will change in a decade when they settle into life? Like I'm a Gen Xer, technically, like I'm the older edge of Gen X. And I remember people were like, oh, you know, they're not gonna settle into jobs. They're not career people like the boomers were, but of course we hit our 30s and we all had jobs and we all settled into it and we bought houses and we drove cars and that sort of thing. Do you think it's a stage of life? Or do you think a more fundamental shift is going on? - Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? The thing about that, 'cause that's something I've struggled with as well. I think there's definitely a phase of life piece of it. No doubt, all of us in our 20s were very different than we were in our 30s, 40s and now in my 50s. At the same time, the world has completely changed. So I'm the youngest piece of the baby boomers and you're on the older side of the Gen X. The difference between your world and my world is not all that different. I mean, there's some sort of boomer characteristics and you've got Gen X characteristics, I'm sure. - Yeah, and the world in general morphed, but I don't feel like it changed the way it has in 10 years. And then when you realize Facebook is what, 10 years old, so let me give it just a quick illustration that's been banging in my head lately and see if this makes any sense. But if you look at, just real quickly, look at Blockbuster. So when my kids were young, Blockbuster was the, we went on Friday night. We went every Friday night to Blockbuster. We all rented our videos. We went home, we watched our video. Blockbuster went out of business because soon it became easier just to go to Redbox, pay $1 and get a video. And then with Netflix, it became easier just to stay home and stream it and Blockbuster did not change with it. The world changed, Blockbuster didn't. So if we look at today, a couple of the huge, even kids who might be interested in a church context, talking to my daughter about this, she's 24. And we talked about a couple of technologies. One is one we're using right now in podcasts. If you want to hear a great preacher, if you want to hear very new hop, you want to hear Andy Stanley, or you want to hear Perry Noble, you can hear it anywhere on the beach when you're out running, anywhere you want, anytime you want, in your generation and my generation, you went to church for a spiritual leader, whatever that is, and you were pretty much limited to the spiritual leader in your general vicinity. Any spiritual leader you want, whether it's Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, you can get them on a podcast. So you don't need to go to church for that anymore. And the other thing is Facebook, you used to go to church because that's where you met your Christian friends. That's where people prayed for each other. That's where you shared life together because you did that. That's where you saw your Christian friends at church. You don't need that anymore. You do that on Facebook. You read any Facebook newsfeed. There's Perry Quest, there's a little spiritual nuggets. There's praise reports. It's all right there on Facebook. And so when we look at, is this just a 20-something thing that they'll grow out of? I don't think so. I think we're, I really feel like we're on the cusp of a restoration, are a, since Martin Luther love- - A reformation? - A reformation. I work for a restoration church. A reformation level change in the church. I really do. Really feel like this isn't just gonna be a tweak. There's gonna be massive change. - Yeah, and I think you're right. I think there are characteristics of, I'm 23 years old and this is what I think. But I think there's something more fundamental going on and it's that sort of personalized, decentralized, don't need any authority kind of cultural shift that's happening right now. And it's got upsides and it's got downsides for sure. I mean, I remember when you wanted to hear a great preacher, you needed to subscribe to the cassette ministry or the CD ministry and now it's just, we're in preachers feel this. You're not really competing, and not that we compete with each other, but you're not competing with the preacher down the road. You're competing with anybody. Andy Stanley, Perry Noble, Rick Warren, Stephen Furtick, anybody. - Yeah, and it's fascinating. Even on church staff, your church staff, especially among your younger church staff, which is fascinating to me, the pastor of the church they work for may not be the primary voice they listen to. You talk to younger staff. - That's so true. - Many, many of them will say, well, Stephen Furtick's actually who I listen to or Perry Noble or named several others. I work at this church, but the primary voice I listen to is over here. That's very different. That is very, very different than what I have experienced in my life. - Yeah, you know what? I haven't heard anyone quite articulate it, but that's absolutely true. You're not necessarily the leader of your own organization or your own church. Okay, so there is something fundamental shifting, I think in culture. So let's talk about generational differences. What frustrates millennials about boomers and busters or Gen Xers? - Here's where I got to be completely transparent, okay? - Yeah. - I'm 53 years old. I don't have a clue what millennials think. I'm trying, I'm asking. One of the things I think that is helpful for me is for me to admit, and this is hard for me, 'cause with Gen X, I just assumed I was close enough to your, I listened to your music, so I got you. With millennials, I can't instinctively tell you, here is one thing though, I think, from the conversations I'm having is, and this is gonna sound very negative, but I think to some extent, we're somewhat irrelevant for millennials. - And here's what I mean by that. The older generation always is a bit irrelevant, but we don't hold the keys to their future the way older generations help the keys to our future. If they want to be published, they type it up, they put it out there. If they want their music to be heard, they don't need a studio executive, they put it on YouTube or SoundCloud, and they see kids get discovered, they see a Justin Bieber, or I can't think of the other name, I'm not a millennial, but they see them to get discovered and become famous, and so to some extent, I don't think millennials think about us as much as we think about them. - Yeah, that's very, very true. I think there's two some style differences. I know I talk to a lot of guys, leaders in their 40s and 50s, and they're like, you know, millennials, they don't know how to spell, and they think that their career should be fulfilling, like whoever thought that should be the case. You see things like that, but I think one of the significant differences, style of leadership, and I see that even on our staff team, you know, I write in isolation, I do. I have a home office, that's where I record this podcast, you know, our younger staff write in community, like they just gather people around, and I mean, this is a generation raised in daycare, not by their moms, and well, I'm not saying, not by their moms, but you know what I mean? I mean, they were just raised communally as much as they were raised by a single parent or two parents, and so it's a very different approach to leadership, it's much more collaborative, it's much more shared credit, whereas sort of the Lone Ranger-type leader, and I've had to make some significant adaptations in my leadership style to accommodate the younger generation, and it's just, it's hard. I love working with millennials, I absolutely love it when they're part of our church. I mean, their passion is unbelievable, and you're kind of, there's very little separation between working life too, it's another difference I've seen. You know, we used to have jobs and we had our lives, and now things are all intermingled, and people see them as related, you know, much more than they used to, and I think that can be super helpful. So I don't know whether the next question sort of is going to be a similar thing, but what frustrates boomers and busters about millennials? I sort of went there, but have you, have you got anything where you're kind of like, as a baby or a buster? This is the long list, is it? Jeff? - I know much more about this list, 'cause I love millennials, and they drive me nuts, and it's the stuff you're talking about. I mean, it's just, it's one of the things that David Kenneman shared was that, I don't remember the percentage, but a huge percentage of millennials believe that they'll be famous at some point in their life. We never thought we'd be famous, you know, maybe 5% of the people be famous. They all... - When I was 13, I hoped I'd be a rock star. - Well, yeah, there's that. - That so did not happen. (laughing) It just so totally did not happen. - You're a rock star in the church world, so. - Well, they're about to have like no musical, like talent at all. - Yeah, that'll be. - But you know, you have that dream, but it's like, yeah, I don't know anybody famous, I'll never get to Hollywood. I, you know, like, you know, I don't want to use, you know, Marx's Londonist language, but I mean, the means of production were owned by other people, right? There were executives who had a recording studio. There were the publishing industry own publishing, and I mean, a self-published book even 20 years ago was like, people just laughed at it. Like, oh, that's great, you know, free-grained kids, good for you. But like, nobody took it seriously. And you're right, that game has changed. And they have a shot at it. - Yeah. And they... - Everybody does. - The complaints I hear and I feel is, it's kind of what you talked about. Millennials don't commit to a church. They don't commit to a company. They don't even commit to a career. And so it's really frustrating with churches because if they go to church, they'll go to church A for one thing, church B for something else, church C for something else. And that makes sense to them. They have no thought that they're going to go work for this company for 30 years or even 20 years. They're going to work for this company until it's no longer fulfilling to them. I was talking to a millennial not too long ago, brilliant guy, engineering degree. And he told me about getting hired by a company. And he said, the company looked at his resume and he had changed jobs every six months. And they said, how do we know that you're not going to change jobs on us in six months? And he said, well, if you bore me, I'll be gone. He said, if you don't give me challenging stuff, I'm out of here, you know, I'm not going to tell you I'll be here more than six months. And he said, they hired me anyway. And I said, how long did you last? He said it six months. And that's just a mindset. It is, you know, that would be an interesting point of research and maybe the data's out there. If it is, I don't know it. But is that really a commitment to self or a commitment to a cause? You know, is that really like, okay, I'm going to determine what happens, which many people would say boomers were committed to themselves. Or, you know, is that a commitment to a higher cause and more noble value, which is, I'm not going to let a corporation determine my soul or I don't know. It's just interesting. Okay, keep going. - Well, no, I definitely, I love that. I love that point you're bringing out. I think it's easy for boomers, especially, to just call it selfish. And I don't know that it is. I mean, it's- - Yeah, I'm not sure it is either. - But I think it goes down to this passion for change, make a difference. And if I'm not making a difference here, why would I stay here? A couple of other things I hear. And I don't know if they're true. I'd love to hear what you think. Carrie is what you mean. We hear a ton of talk about social justice. So millennial social justice. The ding that I hear is they talk about social justice, but they don't do anything about social justice. So if they see a cause on Facebook and they hit like that counts as I just did something for social justice. I don't know if it's true, but that's kind of the pushback I hear is, yeah, we hear the talk, but what are they doing? - Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, my best context is a local context that connects us. And I wouldn't say we're killing it with millennials, but we've got like quite a few who attend our church. And I would say the commitment to the community is much stronger than it is than people in their thirties and forties. That this idea, I mean, we partner with a couple of local food banks and homeless shelters and a few other organizations and we have a mission in Guatemala at our church. And I mean, to get teenagers and 20-somethings passionate about that and putting in community service hours is actually easier than getting 50 year olds to putting community service hours. And it's something that doesn't feel like, I think often with our generation or even people in their thirties or forties, oh yeah, that's something I should do. And I think with millennials, it's more like, yeah, well of course, why wouldn't we do this? I mean, we can, and again, maybe this goes back to your first point. I think it's the, like, you know, when somebody else makes all the decisions and you don't have access, you think, well, I'm not gonna make a difference. And this is generation that grew up and said, well, I'll just release my own album or I'll publish my own book or, you know, I'll become, there are YouTube celebrities and, you know, who don't have a platform independent of YouTube and who make millions of dollars off of YouTube and most mainstream media doesn't know their names. And so I think with that in mind, it's like, well, of course, I can make a difference. Of course, we can end homelessness. Of course, we can get rid of human trafficking. Why not? - Yeah. - And they're making a dent. It's really interesting. Okay, so you said you had a couple. - Well, the other thing that I just hear from boomers that are, and busters that kind of frustrates them is they feel like millennials feel like things are just gonna come to them. That yes, I'll be famous someday. Yes, I'll have a great career. Yes, I'll make a huge difference. And I think the rap is, they grew up, you know, they got all the trophies, you know, everyone gets a trophy, everyone wins. Everyone in the class is fantastic. It's, what is it, Garrison Keeler used to say where all the women are beautiful and all the kids are above average. And so that's kind of the, and so the rap is that millennials just expect this stuff to come to them. You know what I would say a little bit on that, and I hear it all the time, but I would say a little bit on that is, part of that is you're talking about 25, 26, 27-year-olds. When I was that age, I thought things would come to me too. You know, I mean, I didn't understand the work that went into whatever it is that you wanted to do. And I think that's a piece of it. It's just a part of you. Yeah, yeah, I think it is too. And you know, the whole delayed gratification thing is hard for anybody in any generation, that's for sure. So let's think a little bit. Now, the thing, just to back up a little bit, that I think will be great about your research is you're gonna actually explore some of that in the actual context of local ministries. And it's like, well, are these assumptions true? Do they actually work out? How do you overcome them? And I think that's gonna be an important contribution, Jeff, because I do talk to a lot of older leaders who are frustrated, and I think that's a danger point, because if you become frustrated with a generation and they're trying to engage you, they're gonna dismiss you, plain and simple. Like if you wanna lose millennials, just get increasingly frustrated with them. I see lots of points of cooperation, and the other thing we've seen, at least in millennials in our church, and again, maybe it's a Canadian thing, I don't know, but I think it's broader than that is, they're actually looking for spiritual or life parents. They're actually looking for people in their 40s and 50s, or maybe even a little bit older, who can come alongside them and kind of guide them. Like when I was 25, nobody over 50 could tell me anything. And I hang out with a lot of 25-year-olds who are taking notes, and it's like, wow, that was not me when I was 25, and I think that's a lot better. Like, I think now I'm taking notes, but it took me a while to get there. - Yeah, now I think that's huge. I see that too. I see a real thirst for mid-touring and for coaching. I think one of the keys, though, as especially, as you get a little bit more of my age, more in the 50s, and up, we have to really, I'm gonna use a cheesy phrase, but we have to move from Maestro to mentor. And so we have to stop being the one that has to be upfront, that has to be the star. We wind up competing with millennials. We really do. We hold on to the jobs that they can't get to 'cause we're in the way. And we wanna be the one on the front of the book or whatever it is, and we have to get comfortable with the idea that I feel like, I'll just be honest with you, where I'm at. I feel like my calling, what God has told me to, for the next whatever years of my life, is to just consistently find ways that I can feed into young leaders, share with them what I know, share with them what I don't know, help them find the resources they need, and that's what I'm called to do. I think if older leaders, whether you're Boomer or older Gen X, as you look at how do I engage millennials, one of the things you have to do is be willing to let them lead. Here's what I've heard. Here's what's fascinating is every pastor I've talked to, that I feel like is winning with millennials, the thing that comes up again and again and again is we let millennials lead at a higher level than we even think they're qualified to lead at. They talk about 25 year olds leading major pieces of ministry, and they said that's what's engaging. The millennials feel like they're not, they're not just, I think it's a shift from, we want to hear from millennials, we want you to speak into the process, it's a shift to, we want you to lead the process, and we'll speak into it. And that is, that is really hard. It's always hard to hand it off, but to hand it off to people that young, and yet I think that's a huge piece of what has to happen next. - So I actually don't just have them around your table, have them leading the table. - Yeah, yeah, I think this idea of, yeah, we have millennials at the table, I don't know, the millennials want to be at the table. (laughing) And who wants to sit around with a bunch of old people and hear what their ideas are, unless they feel like, and I think the other thing too, here I love to hear, you know, you do this so well. We have to let them lead, but I think we also have to let them lead into their passion. I think rather than saying, you know, here's a niche that we need to have covered, would you lead this? We have to discover, what are you passionate about, what drives you? All right, let's figure out a way that I can resource that and help you with lead moving in that direction. - That's right, it's not just implementing our vision, it's implementing a new vision, and a new day, and a new strategy. And I think that's tough for a lot of leaders. I mean, you've got to be very secure, and you have to be in a place, and I think you identified it, whereas an older leader, you've got to be secure enough to say, I don't have to be the guy who's upfront all the time, I don't have to be the person who gets all the credit, I don't have to be the person who gets all the glory, and you know, it's about team more than it is about me, and that's a paradigm shift, I agree, and I think that's really critical. And if you don't have that around your table, I don't think you're going to have a whole lot of millennials around your table. - Yeah, I love what you said through there, and you mentioned it while ago, that piece of that team, you know, it's not one big visionary handing the big vision over to the young big visionary, it's that we're a team, because that's how they grew up, right? That's what you said, and I agree with that. That's the other big thing I've heard over and over, one is they want to be able to lead, and then the other thing is, but they want to do it in a collaborative atmosphere. They, if there's not collaboration, they check out. - Right, so you've already, this is helpful. So you've seen some good practices. What are some other good practices for churches that are actually connecting with millennials, or millennials that are connecting with churches? - You know, one of my favorite churches out there that nobody's ever heard of is a church called Ethos Church, and it's in Nashville, they meet in-- - Cool name. - Cool name, and they meet in country music venues. They don't have a building. They have three country music venues. They're like six or seven years old, and they're reaching like 3,000 people, and they're, they're average age. They told me their average age is 28, and I think they're lying. - It's too high. - That's too high. And some of these guys are church, I mean, grew up in church, came to college in Nashville, and now they're going to this church, but a lot of them, no church background, no, Nashville's becoming kind of this cool hip, hipster kind of place, and they're reaching a ton of those people. And it's fascinating, Kerry, 'cause not that there's one model that works, but this model is fascinating. They have no theatrical lighting. There's no haze, there's no moving lights. Their band, for the most part, doesn't even stand on the stage, 'cause they don't, the kids don't even see the band. All they see is on, and the screen, all it is, is white letters on a black background, and then the young guy gets up to speak, and he pulls out a Bible, and he just goes verse by verse through the Bible, and kids are flocking to this thing. I mean, like crazy. - Wow. - And some of the secret sauce is obviously, he was one of the guys that said, you know, in our small group system, I've got a 24-year-old kid who's leading 600 people in small groups, and he said it's a mess. We're constantly have to clean up behind him, but he's leading. These guys, you know, a lot of churches will dismiss church for a weekend, so let's go do community service, and which is awesome, that's so cool. These guys have done that as many as three weekends in a row, and more than just go do community service, they say, go do church in your neighborhood, and we want you to do church, and one of the reasons they don't have high production value, and they don't have the lights and all of those things, is because they say they want their congregation to go, this isn't that hard to do. I could do this, my buddy knows how to play the guitar, I got a Bible, I could do this, and so then they go do it, and now the next iteration for these guys is they're sending 20-somethings out-to-go plant churches around the country. I mean, these are non-seminary train, raw kids that are gonna make all kinds of mistakes. Eggs are black, I mean, so much fun to see, and on the other side of that, Kerry, to your point, long ago, the leader of this church, Dave Clayton, he leans into older mentors like nobody I've ever seen, I mean, he just gloms on to people who are further down the road than he is, he's maybe 32, something like that, but just constantly learning, constantly looking for mentoring. - Wow, so you've got that model, and again, I think what's important, because I can see a lot of people just throwing their lights out and getting rid of the haze, and like, okay, we're gonna get rid of the video, but that not, you know, there's no formula, there's no magic bullet, there's something that God is doing there that he may not do if you copy it, right? We live, that should be another podcast someday, the death of copycatism in the church, but that's really cool, what else are you seeing that's working well? - Well, let me give you another model, right? So the church in Colorado, which is the biggest church nobody's ever heard of, it's past the growing largest church in Colorado called Flatirons, they have the best lights, the best haze, the best sound, the best... - I've heard of Flatirons. - They're the best I've ever seen. I mean, they take production. - They crush it. - Oh, unbelievable. And they're reaching millennials like crazy. I mean, they're 22,000 people on a weekend, and their average age has got to be maybe 30 at best, maybe 29, they're crushing it. But you see underneath, again, it's what you say, don't throw out your lights, don't go, you know, stand and tell your band to get off the platform. They're underneath that, again, they're saying, oh, we've got incredibly young leaders leading at a very high level, we're challenging people to be unbelievably missional in their neighborhoods, we're letting people follow their passion, those same underneath principles are being played out in very different models. - Wow. See, and that's what's fun. Do you have another example? This is why I can't wait to read. I don't know, you're writing the book, you're in the like outline stage, but like, you got anything else? 'Cause this is, I love the one size does not fit all. - Well, so one of the ones I love is a church plant here in Colorado. They planted back last February. And I mean, they're the fastest growing church plant I'm aware of in Colorado. I mean, and numbers, I keep throwing out numbers, they're just a measure, it's not the measure, but these guys had a thousand people on Easter, their first year out here. And it's all young families, all young families. And one of the things they're doing is, that's kind of unique a little bit, is like when they have leadership meetings, they tell everybody, bring your kids with you, don't get a babysitter, bring your kids with you. And they, I hate their, they invite me into their leadership meetings. I hate them, because you've got little, you've got little four year olds running through and screaming and you've got people crying. And over here, one of the ladies is breastfeeding. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We sit at a table and we write on a whiteboard and that's how we do leadership. And they said, no, no, no. We do it as families, husband and wife come, the kids come, everybody comes at church. It's not chaos, it's organized, but at church, it's not unusual to see the pastor's kid come running down the center aisle, yelling, hey daddy, during church, you know, that's not their goal, but it's not the end of the world and it's because everyone there is young families, everyone's got young kids. And so they're adapting their leadership and church model to the reality of who they're reaching. And so again, it's a completely different model, but there's that kind of relaxed, it's not rigid as to what church looks like. - Well, and that's what's so interesting that, you know, I think that's a generational shift as well because I think a lot of boomers and Gen Xers, like for me, it would be, well, of course, we're gonna have a babysitter, you know? And then you see the 30-somethings, it's like, well, family is sort of the babysitter we trust. And now it's like, yeah, we're just gonna bring the kids. And I'm with you, like I like order and all that stuff. So this is great, like throw some chaos into the mix and let's hand the reins over to the next generation. - Anything else from the research that you're finding? I mean, I could talk about this for an hour. This just fascinates me. - You know, like I told you, I'm really early on, I just, you know, one of the things is just this idea of multiculturalism for my generation, it's, yeah, we gotta do that, we have to figure that out. And it feels like for the millennials, that's the only thing they understand. They don't, they can't relate to a world that's all white or all one demographic because that's never been their world. I mean, my kids never played on a sports team that wasn't very racially mixed, very economically mixed. And so I think what we're seeing is when millennials walk into a typical North American church and it's all one dominant culture in that church or one dominant age or even all men. And there's, they don't see women in leadership. I just, they don't connect to it. That's what I'm having here in every leader I talk to says, oh yeah, it can't be a trend for us. That has to be organic to who we are, that we are multi-generational, that we're multi-ethnic, that we're multi-gender because that's all millennials, that's the world. That's the world. - You said something else that was really interesting as well because I mean, we live in a pretty non-diverse area. I know for our church, it's just like 95% Caucasian. It's just where we live. And I always think your church should look like your community. So that's kind of what our church looks like. But the one a lot of people miss is socioeconomic status. And there's a lot of churches that are just super affluent. And one of the interesting, I mean, I got a Facebook message yesterday from a woman. It's like, does the bus run to your new building? We're opening a building, you know, shortly after taping this interview. And I'm like, I don't even know, but I'm so glad somebody's asking. And so we're drilling down on that and I think it does. But like, you know, people who don't have transportation, single moms, you know. So we have, we have some wealthy people and we have some people on social assistance. And we have people of diverse backgrounds like as diverse as our community gets. And I think that's a very healthy thing for the church. And I agree. It's not like we're not trying to stratify our culture. We're trying to blend it and actually reach a city, actually reach some cities in our case. And when you reach city, you get everybody who's in it. - Yeah, I love what you're saying about reflecting your community, the church that I work for, the one I'm sitting in right now. - Same thing as your community. It is 90, at least 90% Caucasian, but there is many economic levels. And yeah, yeah, that's very important. - Yeah. And I think that whole like upper middle class, suburban, you know, sanitized church model probably is, you know, dated for sure, for sure. Okay, so do you think it's possible for boomers and Gen Xers to lead millennials well or do we just need to get out of the way? - I think that just get out of the way is not very helpful. - Okay, sure. - I mean, I'm not coming at you. I don't mean that at all. But I think the biggest thing we have to do, honestly, as an older leader, the biggest thing I have to do is I have to have relationships with millennials. I have to hang out with them. Just reading research, just listening to, you know, some podcasts is really important. But if I'm not hanging out with millennials, getting to know them, asking them, constantly asking them questions, learning from them as much as they're learning from me, I think that is how we can lead millennials and mentor millennials and be handing off this baton. I mean, one of the things I love is I get to hang around a lot of church planters and by the very nature of the beast, it's mostly millennials. And so they come and they have all kinds of questions, but that's my opportunity to just constantly ask them questions and I think that's the deal. I think, Terry, I think the thing is, is that yes, we can lead millennials if we're students or millennials. - Okay, that is a great point. As opposed to sometimes we expect them to be students of us, right? Which is a mistake, that's for sure. And if you've got a staff, hire them. Like just hire them. - Yeah, absolutely. - Because you're going to learn and grow. And if you don't have a staff, like just make sure they get into your leadership circle and give them some responsibility. I think that's good. What do you think keeps churches from changing to reach millennials? - I wonder if part of it is just fear. I think sometimes it's so hard, this is something I'm working with a church on right now. It's so hard to let go of the good to reach the best. And I know that again, that's kind of, kind of cheesy phrase, but it really is. We have something that to some extent is working and it's reaching people. And I'm not suggesting at all that we should burn that down and go start something else, but we have to let go of pieces of our model. We have to let go of pieces of our leadership that we're comfortable with in order to embrace the young, the new, the next. And that's a very scary proposition. And I think honestly, probably at the base of it, I mean, Carrie, you know, tons of church leaders. I do too. And I mean, almost every one of them I know is passionate about reaching people far from God, is passionate about reaching younger generations. I mean, that's why they're in it. And yet it's terrifying to try to let go of something we know is effective, to reach to something that we don't know. We don't know what's going to happen. - That's well said. And I think, you know, what's at stake here for me is that the people who are leading quote contemporary churches, I hate that phrase, it just sounds so dated. But you know what I mean? Like churches that are, let's say, reaching hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of people today. If we're not engaging millennials, we become the new traditional church, I think as Tony Morgan has said. And basically it's like, well, we'll do a millennial service, but we won't do it at prime time. Or, you know, we'll do it Sunday night or you can get the 9 a.m. slot, but we take the 10, 30 or the 11. And you just become, you just become that generation. And I think that's so dangerous. Like if you're not integrating this into the fabric of who you are as a church, as a community, you're going to miss out because you're going to be, well, you can have a percentage of the budget. No, why don't you just have the budget? Why don't you just, you know, and so I'm pretty passionate about that, that we've got to evolve as a whole organization. And, you know, my preferences and my whims need to disappear and I need to tip my hand in favor of another generation. That's sort of my little editorial rant, sorry. I jacked the podcast, but. - That's awesome, that's awesome. - Yeah, okay, what's the best place for leaders to start? Jeff, like if they're going, oh man, there's a gap. And yup, I'm 40, I'm 50 and there ain't nobody who's 22 around our table. - Yeah, this is so simplistic. But I guess, let me relate it back to our friend, you know, Derwin Gray very well. - I know Derwin, yeah, he's been on the podcast as well. - Yeah, so I was chatting to Derwin about this idea of multicultural and that kind of thing. And Derwin said, well, really the place to start is getting to know someone who doesn't look like you. It's not hiring, you know, the new African American worship leader, whatever. It's go have lunch with somebody who doesn't look like you. I think the exact same thing is true here. And I know it's simplistic, but I think the place you start is how can you regularly connect with millennials? Hopefully that maybe aren't even in your church, but how can you start to just sit down and really begin to understand for yourself? What do they think? What do they aspire to? What excites them? What terrifies them? What bores them to tears and start there? And then find ways to invite them into the change at your church. Don't change. I guess, you know, if I'm thinking out loud, you can't change to attract millennials. You have to engage millennials to change the church. Hmm. Now that's a really good point. Yeah, and Durwin, by the way, he was a guest on episode 13 of this podcast. So he's great. Hey, Jeff, I know people are going to want to learn more. Where can they connect with you and where will they find this book when it's written? Probably the best place to connect is just my website, which is my name, which is spelled really weird. It's G-E-O-F-F-S-U-R-R-A-T-T, but it's my name.com, jeffserat.com. Excellent. And we'll link to all of that in the show notes. Jeff, as always, it is fun to hang out with you. And thanks for shedding some light on an issue. I think everybody's struggling with in the church right now and trying to figure out millennials and Gen Xers and boomers as well. So thanks, man. Thanks, Gary. Love being here. Man, Jeff totally had me because, I mean, we just opened, as some of you know, a brand new facility. We spent millions of dollars on like lights and sound and da, da, da, da. And when he was telling me about this church, that was just so stripped down. I'm kind of like, yeah, I guess we kind of missed that. And then he's like, and then there's this other church that had the best lights and the best sound. And I think that's really, it is a fun season to be alive as a leader and try to think through, okay, what is really going to connect? And I think overall, you know, sort of my big takeaway so far in all the different conversations I've had with millennials is there's nothing quite as powerful as authenticity. And man, oh man, if you, if you can just somehow, whether you have a lot of lights or you have no lights whether you have a lot of budget or no budget, if you can just be you and you can be authentic and you can be honest and you can be vulnerable. As I say over and over again, you know, people admire your strengths, but they resonate with your weaknesses. And if you let them see a little bit behind the curtain and you let them know, I haven't got this all figured out, which of course they already know, and you just kind of leave them into the presence of God and you kind of go together. I think that's a real key, at least. That's my little editorial comment. And if you want more, everything's in the show notes, just go to carrynewhough.com/episode40. We are actually at episode 40, we made it, yeah. So we got a lot more coming down the pipe. Actually, I've been doing a lot of recording lately and so super excited. Next week, we are gonna be back with a guy by the name of Daniel Decker. And a lot of people are talking about building your personal or church platform these days. Michael Hyatt, obviously, and Daniel works with Michael, actually helped him launch the platform book to become a New York Times bestseller. Knows all about platform, but how do you build your personal or church platform without being selfish or self-promoting? 'Cause we've all seen those like self-promoting people and it's kind of like, really, you know? And sometimes I ask myself, like, am I self-promoting? And the answer is, well, sure. I mean, I guess at some level we all are, but fascinating conversation with Daniel Decker. So talking about how to build your church or personal platform without being selfish on episode 41, you can get it for free next Tuesday. If you haven't subscribed yet, why don't you do that? Why don't you just hit the big old subscribe button? It's free and then these automagically appear in your inbox every Tuesday. And for all of you who keep leaving reviews on iTunes, Stitcher, Tune in Radio, thank you very much. Thank you, we're over almost 190 interviews in iTunes. Amazing, thank you, did I say interviews? I meant reviews, reviews in iTunes. See, there's authenticity. I was gonna have Toby cut that out, but we'll just leave that in. Okay, so, almost 190 reviews. And again, that just helps the podcast get in front of other leaders. So that's a way of paying it forward. If you could leave one, just an honest one, that would be great. And we'll catch you next Tuesday for episode 41. Thanks and I really do hope this has helped you lead like never before. You've been listening to the Carry Newhof Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)