The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 037 – Creating an Incredible Team Culture—An Interview with Chris Rivers
Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 37 of the podcast. My name is Kerry Newhoff, and I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. Thanks so much for tuning in. Today you're going to hear from Chris Rivers, and Chris is somebody who really talks all about church culture, and I don't know whether you think a lot about church culture. I personally, as a leader, leading Kinexis Church where I serve, have thought a lot about culture lately as we grow to now over 2,200 people who call our church home, and what's our culture, and I mean our staff, I mean we used to be able to meet in a car, and now we've got like 15 people who are in staff on one capacity or another, and so I'm thinking a lot about culture. And that's why this interview has been super helpful for me, and Chris actually helped us do a culture assessment, and helped me see that, okay, there's some areas where I thought our culture was crystal clear, and it's not, and he's going to walk through some of those principles, and so you might say, well, I don't really think about our church culture, so I'm not sure this applies to me. You just need to know you have a culture in whatever organization you're a part of, whether you've ever thought about it or not, and your culture is either a good culture or it is a bad culture, and your culture either helps you accomplish your mission, or it hurts you as you try to accomplish your mission, and I think the more you intentionally engage and diagnose your culture, the better off you're going to be. So hopefully this interview, it's a little bit shorter than many of them, but I hope it's going to be just, you know, 25 minutes of extreme help for you, and then Chris has got a special offer at the end, and he came, by the way, by this very honestly, because as you'll hear during the interview, he was at New Spring Church with Perry Noble in South Carolina, and they were hiring, like, lots of staff, not just every year, but like every month, sometimes every week, and his job was to align them culturally with their mission, vision, and values, and that's a tough job. So he took all those learnings, now he's helping churches around the world do that, and hopefully this is going to help you figure out if, you know, all you walk away from today is like, hey, we have a culture, and I got to figure out whether it's healthy or not, that is a huge win, and you can take it a lot further than that. In fact, before I even met Chris, our church, we spent about a year with our leadership team and our elders working through what our culture is, our cultural values, and it was a super helpful, very difficult, but super helpful exercise, and I hope this one helps you get started, because my goodness, culture is just so important, and it's the difference between like, wanting to show up at work, or not wanting to show up at work, it's a difference between resolving conflict healthily or not, and it's the values, it's the ether in the air that sort of defines who you are as an organization, and how you might be different from others. So anyway, super episode, and hey, I just want to say, you know, I like to share stuff personally with you guys, and I love to hear your stories as well, but as this episode goes live, we have just opened up our first ever permanent facility, and that's for Connect's Church where I lead full time, and I'm so excited about it. We are pumped, we will have just celebrated the opening weekend, and we also have a portable location that we completely refreshed at a complete makeover of that, and I just share that, because that's what's going on in my life, and we had, I'm sure, an incredible weekend when I were recording this, we've already in a soft launch, which was unbelievable, and I'm just so thankful for the opportunity, but I also want to share that, just as encouragement for all of you, because I mean, I think sometimes realizing a vision, our vision is not to build a building, it's to reach people, to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus and to create a church that unchurch people love to attend, but like, sometimes realizing a vision is just really hard, and we look, I'm not kidding, for five solid years, five solid years for facility option in our community that was affordable, and everything was like $10 million, and I mean, we're a good sized church, and we have a $1.8 million budget, but like, $10 million, we're just not comfortable with that much debt, so we looked and looked and looked, and there were zoning issues and so on, and man, I'll tell you, it was just tough sledding, literally for five years, I can't tell you how many meetings I went into as a leader, with our elders, with our facilities team, who were incredible, with our staff, with our leadership team, and every time we think we would find something, and it would be like, oh no, that door's closed, or that's too expensive, or whatever, but we just didn't give up, and some of you're in a situation right now, where you've got a great mission and a great vision, and you just, you feel like every door's being slammed in your face, and I just want to encourage you, if you got a great mission and a great vision, just keep going, keep going, keep going, it would have been so easy for us to quit, and I mean, you know, we did the soft launch, and we opened the building for the very first time, a few nights ago after I'm recording this, there were some people there who knew, like, you know, you talk about it from stage, it's like, oh, you know, it was hard, but then there are people in the room who know how hard it was, I mean, we hugged, and we cried, and we were like, man, can you believe we actually made it, and we got something that is, you know, it's a stretch, but it's affordable, it's magnificent, just a beautiful new building, and I may even post a picture in the show notes, how about that, we're going to do that. So, we'll put a picture from our opening day in the show notes, so you can see that, and by the way, show notes, yeah, you can just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode37, everything you hear about in this episode, we'll be there, and we'd love to get your comments and feedback as well. So, hang on till the end of the podcast, there's a special offer that Chris has made available to the you podcast listeners, and we'll get that to you, but now here is my interview with Chris Rivers. Well, it's great to have Chris Rivers here today. Chris has started a brand new thing called Culture Bus, which you're going to learn all about today. Chris, welcome to the podcast. Hey, glad to be here, Kerry, thanks for having me. Hey, Chris, tell us a little bit about your background and how you became interested in this whole issue of like organizational culture, church culture, cultural values. I mean, it's not exactly the top subject that you find when you talk to leaders today, and yet it's one that really fascinates me, and I'm convinced is sinking a lot of ships without people having any idea what's going on. Yes, well, I've been in ministry world capacity for the last seven years. I had the opportunity to work with many different businesses and organizations, including Secure Give Arena, which is a church management system, a division of Shelby Systems. I've worked at New Spring Church in Anderson, South Carolina, and recently have been spent a season with Enjoy Stewardship Solutions. So I've had the opportunity to really be involved in lots of different environments, whether it's raising money or doing more ministry, effective strategy, implementation, transitions. I've just, the Lord's really allowed me to experience a lot of different areas. And so culture has always been something that has more or less amazed me. And so these experiences that I've had have really given me more of a insight into this idea that culture development is necessary to have effective ministry and strategy in the church. Okay. Now that's a pretty broad background. I mean, Secure Give, I think that everybody who's ever been online and bought anything probably recognizes that. That's some really cool background. Now, everybody these days, both in business and in the church world, is talking about mission and vision, and a lot of people are talking about strategy. That's something I think a lot about, write a lot about, and a lot of churches and organizations are beginning to nail those down. But how is culture different? Like what, help us understand, when you talk about organizational or church culture, what do you mean? Yes. Well, I really believe that culture is what your environment say you value. And so the art of culture development is really saturating every environment with your vision. So I mean, I can walk into your church and I can read your mission statement and hear you talk about your vision and strategy. But if your environments don't speak these things, then there's a real disconnect for me. People see through that. And I really believe that culture is the litmus test for your vision, mission, and strategy. Okay. So in other words, sometimes what people say and how people live are two different things. Is that what you're saying? Absolutely. Absolutely. Culture is what your environment say you value. And so when I walk into an environment, it's really telling me everything I need to know, especially if I'm new, if I'm new to your organization, then I am going to get a sense of your environment and very quickly. And I'm going to know exactly what it is that you value right off the top. Okay. Give me an example. So you walk into a business or walk into a church. How can you tell what people value? I'm just curious. I mean, for one, just the way that the building looks. I mean, if I walk into your environment and it looks like it's in disarray, I start to wonder if you're going to make it. You know, if I walk into your environment and, you know, you're a church, so I'm already hurting. I mean, the majority of people that come into a church are hurting, so they haven't probably had anybody say anything nice to them, probably the entire week. And I walk into your environment and no one says a word to me. And I wonder if, like, why am I here? So I think, I think that many times we don't really realize how effective our environment can speak to vision. I think that's probably true. You know, I don't know where I read it, but years ago, I read about church basement syndrome. And I grew up in traditional church. I mean, I'm not speaking against it. I'm speaking as one who's been a part of it for many, many years. But, like, often it's like we value children and then, well, how do you value them? Well, they're in the basement, in the nursery, under the stairs where it's moldy. Is it that kind of thing that sometimes, you know, betrays your mission, vision, and values? I think so. I mean, even think about, you know, Jesus, he was, I mean, generous with his life, right? So, I mean, so as a church, we should be generous. So I mean, when I walk into an environment, when I walk into a service and we're talking about this generous God, what are we doing? What could be done to show as an organization that we're generous? Are we, you know, maybe it's a choskey that we give away or maybe it's something that we're doing that says, hey, this is what we value. We want to show you how much we value and we're so we're going to show it in our actions. Right. Okay. So now culture can't be neutral, right? Like everybody has one. You can't not have a culture. Why do you think so many leaders don't think about their culture? Man, this is a really, this is a really interesting question. And I think that this is going to like really, well, let's get into it. I think it's because I think it's because change is difficult and embracing change takes time. You know, I mean, you look at the world that we live in and we are so focused on right now that I think that we struggle sometimes to embrace the process that inevitably comes with change and it might even just be possible that we're avoiding it or we just don't even know. Wow. You know, that that that's really, really interesting. So change is difficult. There's no question that change is difficult. What, what is it then like is it is that leaders are going, look, I don't have the money to think about culture. I don't have the time to think about it. There's no way I can change this. Is that sort of where that comes from? When I worked on staff at New Spring, one of the roles that I had, I got to put together this, you know, staff development program there and I got to help people transition into ministry and get this carry in 2010, when we launched this program, we were about 132 staff. And within a year and a half, we hired 147 people. Wow. Okay. So get that we doubled our size in a year and a half. And what I realized in that time period is that people, when they come on board, many times they're more focused on how to do their job and what to do, that they don't really think about why they're doing it in the first place, okay? And so when change comes, because church, I believe is a place where change takes place, when change comes, if we as a leadership team are more focused on how we do the things that we do and what we do, we will struggle to embrace the changes that inevitably come. Okay. We went through an exercise because I lead a church called Connects as church. We went through an exercise last year where we tried to identify our cultural values. It's something that North Point did, it's something that Patrick Lencioni talks about in his book, The Advantage. And so it took us almost a year, but we wrote down like six principles that we thought really described and prescribed the kind of culture we wanted. And this is to your point. I mean, we're bringing on new team members, new volunteers all the time. Just recently we added another hundred volunteers, sort of to our core. And I think you're right. When people come in and they're new, they make assumptions about a culture, right? They're like, okay, well, the way, you know, we've always dealt with conflict is indirectly. We don't, we don't deal with it. Or I come from a workplace where people talked about each other when they weren't in the room. And you might be trying to create a very different culture where it's like, no, you go direct to the person that you talk to, or, hey, we don't stand for mediocrity in this place. You know, we want to battle it everywhere we go and we want to do great things. And so when you define your culture, like, tell us about that experience at new screen. So what were you doing? Were you trying to say, hey, this is how we do things? This is how we behave. This is how we accomplish our mission. And how did that help in assimilating, you know, a hundred percent staff growth in 12 months? Yeah. I mean, it's really an act of God, really. I mean, it's, you know, you take it as it goes. But I think that for us, at least what I learned in that season, while I was there, is that people are anxious, like people just have, they're just anxious. You know, they just don't know what to expect. They don't believe that they can actually do the work that God's called me to call them to do. And so many times it's just more or less a, hey, you know what, we believe in you. We love you. And you know, it's just this constant repetition of dialogue and conversation that lets people know and be reminded of it, of the vision. So for instance, like the first week of someone's new thing, that is a very, very critical time. And so maybe instead of working so much on job specifics, maybe it's just hanging out with leaders and just learning about who they are and what they're responsible for and maybe a leadership principle that they want me to know coming into ministry. And then, you know, within the next 14 weeks, there's this sequence of connection that we make with our team that says, you know what, these people want something for me instead of something from me. It's not about what I'm doing, but it's about who I'm becoming. And I think that over time, that begins to let people see that they matter to the organization and that they can make a difference. Okay. So part of it is just assimilation then into the existing team, is that it? I believe that's true, yes, and just the fact that you're connecting with people. If you like, for instance, I serve right now in a role within our children's ministry, and I do all the vision casting, I kind of share the vision and values of our children's ministry before people actually take us next step in serving. And so many times, you know, people come through and we don't really know, like, you know, we just so that, you know, in just this year so far, what is it? It's September, since January, I think we've had 457 people come through one of these tours that I do and just that's just one campus, okay? And so that's pretty impressive. But at the same time, we just met the other night as a team, as an entire leadership team. And we talked about some of the stories that came from those people that have been through that tour. And I've been to that meeting and I haven't heard what's been happening. Like all I know is they just come through this process and then they're gone. But because I'm able to hear about the stories and the life change and how what I'm doing actually makes a difference. It makes me want to do it even more. Sure. So let's go back to bringing all those staff on board when you were on staff at New Spring and sort of responsible for that. You've got, sometimes I've heard it described as competing visions, potentially competing visions coming in, right? So you hire me and I think, well, I think I understand the mission vision and strategy of New Spring Church or whatever organization we're talking about, but really it's misaligned a little bit. There's a little bit in the back of my mind that wants to take the church in a direction the church shouldn't go. How do you get that out of a person or how does that surface? Because I think all of us listening to this podcast have had an experience where we thought somebody was on board, but they're not really on board. Is that culture at work and how do you deal with that? Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question. And I think that the first step, if someone's telling me that, the first question I'm going to ask them is what does their hiring process look like or what does the assimilation process look like before they even come on? Because I know, and I'm just speaking at New Spring, I could speak at other organizations, but at New Spring, we had a very, very unique hiring process. And so you didn't come on to the team unless we knew that God had called you to this team. And so there were three interviews that happened. Our last interview was done by our directional leadership team. Every single person was in there. I mean, at one point, I was like, do we really need the entire directional leadership team to be in an interview with every single person? And you know what the answer is? Yes, we do. I think that we're sometimes in a rush to make things happen because we want to bring someone on because we have a job that needs to be done. But you can't rush a work of God. I mean, he is going to do his thing, and it's up to us to be patient on that. But at the same time, if I see someone that's of great potential for a hire or a great potential for my team, then I need to spend a lot of time with that person. Here what they value is, are they passionate about the same things that I'm passionate about? Are they going to enjoy our family and the environment that we create as a family? I think that there's just a lot of things and a lot of questions. John Maxwell says that questions unlock the doors to places that we've never been. And I think that those questions in the hiring process could make or break it. So what happens then? Let me just push a little bit. What happens then when you're in the process of listening and you're past hiring and you think you've got to fit and then there isn't a fit? Is there a way to enculturate people or how does that work? If I was to come into your organization or any organization for that matter and just took my iPhone and said, "Hey, Carrie, let me go to five of your top leaders and let me take my iPhone out and just do a two-minute video with them and say, "Hey, listen, who are you? What are you responsible for? And what's a quick leadership principle that you would want me to know coming into ministry?" I would guarantee you those are probably the filters or the pillars right there. Okay, those are the main things that leadership says, "This is what's important because you're coming in, you're new and this is what we want you to know." So at that point, I think it becomes a repetition of that throughout the next 90 days. 90 days is a critical time period. So you look at GEICO. GEICO is the king of this, right? You know, 15% are moral saving and car insurance. So it's like, how do you know that? It's because every commercial, you see them. They're talking about it. They've got sticky videos that are just cool and you just want to re-watch them and go back to YouTube. And so I think that there has to be a creativity in that process as well. It could be through email, it could be through one-on-ones, it could be through maybe mentorship. I think that 90-day period is very critical. And when we are continuing to drip those main things, those pillars into the life of these new people, it gives them an understanding of, "Man, this is really what we're about." And it gives them more clarity into what they're supposed to be doing as opposed to being lost in the shuffle. So if you go into an organization to help or consult, all right, just like we're going to keep our notebooks open on this one. What do you do? Like if you were to come up to where I am at Connects and I said, "Chris, help us with our culture." What are you going to do? How do you help leaders with that? I think the first thing that I'm going to really do is try to understand the culture. I'm going to probably, before I even come to your church, I'm going to listen to like the last six series that you've done. I'm going to probably, well maybe not six series. I was going to say that's better than most people who actually attend church, and that's pretty impressive. Well, I meant to say like, I'd probably say six messages in a series, and just kind of understand where your heart is right now, because the heart is everything, right? And I think the next thing we're going to do is probably going to have a dialogue conversation about if I was new right now, if I'm, listen, you guys, let's say instead of how you're going to hire me as a consultant, you want to hire me on as a staff person to kick tail and take names and do what we're going to do here, like, what do you want me to know? And I think that that is the beginning phase of realizing what the actual culture is that you're desiring, so to say. We're going to talk about systems and processes, and how are you keeping things central? Because I've found that that's one of the biggest challenges that people can embrace this process, and most of the time, we don't focus on that enough. And what is the way that you're accomplishing ministry, and is everybody on the same page? A lot of times, you walk into an organization, and they're using Fellowship One and five other things to do really the same thing, but just not everybody's on the same page with it. Yeah, it happens a lot. I kind of want to know who's the captain of the ship, that not just the vision pastor, so to say, but who's really being accountable to how we're going to conquer ministry, so to say. But there's a whole lot of other things that we would probably do, but the first start would be just really just kind of learning what it is that you really want for someone new. I think that new people, when you really focus on the transition process and just a brand new transition, I think that is the starting point for creating an irresistible environment. So do you think most organizations are connected between what they say they're about and what they're actually about, or is there often a gap? What do you find? I think that there's a gap. Yeah. Sure. And definitely, we can see that in our culture and our church culture, so to say, my wife yesterday, she had a really good friend come in and spend the night last night. She lives in Nashville, and she's just another person that has had a struggle in the church. She's been hurt in some capacity, and she's trying to find her place in the church. And I think that she's gone to a lot of churches, and of course I didn't have a huge conversation with her, but I think that most people are really struggling with who they are and their identity in Christ and where they fit in God's kingdom. And so the church should be a place that automatically, when I come to, I should be able to get that answer right off the bat, that I think that we could do a better job, and I'm just talking about big sea church, about getting back to really what Jesus died for and bringing value to her. Hmm. And you think churches often intend to do that, but often fail to, is that what you're driving at? I think that sometimes we talk about things that don't really matter. Hmm. I mean, let's be honest, right now, I mean, there's a war going on, and I mean, I try not to look at the news all the time, but there's a war going on. I mean, people are wondering, what is going on with our country? Well, it's a great opportunity to talk about the spiritual war that we face. I mean, I don't know, I'm just talking out loud, but I think that if we started talking more about sex, and what does it look like to have a really great relationship with somebody, I'm just talking out loud, but I think that sometimes maybe we're talking about things that don't really, I'm not going to connect with, because I'm not thinking about the doxology or how I'm going to do XYZ in a job or, I don't know, I'm kind of getting into a different world here. I don't really have incredible, incredible insight on, you know, that type of topic. But I think that when we do begin to talk about the things that people are really struggling with, that that really does connect people to what we want to, what we say as our vision and our values. Oh, for sure. For sure. So let's say church, because I think we've all been in organizations that have what we might call a bad culture, right? Conflict doesn't resolve well. You know, people have no vision for the future or there's just a negative atmosphere. Can you change a bad culture and how do you go about that? I think so. I think you can change about a bad culture and I think there are two things that you could do. Probably the first one is just focusing on willingness. I really believe that potential plus willingness equals endless opportunities. And so many times, I think that when people come into a church, they feel like they need to be ordained or equipped in order to do or be a part of the mission that God's called us to do. And so, you know, really, if you look at it, all the disciples, none of them had a resume or were qualified, they just had willingness. And you know, the potential in Christ, the potential that we have in Christ plus the willingness to do whatever it takes, it just changes everything. And so I think the first thing that you can do to change a bad culture is just really focus on willingness. Are we willing to do whatever it takes? Do I have people on my team who are willing to do whatever it takes? So that's one thing. I think another one is just focusing on people. To me, I sometimes ask the question, like, when's the last time I really just celebrated what God's doing? You know, we're working really, really hard to accomplish mission and vision. And when's the last time as a leader, I sat down and said, "Hey guys, thanks for helping me. You matter. You know, if you weren't here, we wouldn't even be able to do this." And I think that that helps people see that you want something for them instead of something from them. And I think maybe another thing that you could do is just focus on the evaluating process. You know, I feel like sometimes we talk about things like, "Hey, we could do this or we could do that." But I think sometimes just if we could just evaluate what's working, is this working? You know, can we do this better? Are we, you know, that's part of being willing to change, I think. But those are just a couple of things I think off the bat that you can do. All right. What have you discovered about culture at New Spring as New Spring grew? I mean, did the culture, their change, did you have to become more intentional about what you were wanting to accomplish or help us understand how a growth curve impacts culture? Well, first of all, I want to say that New Spring is a unicorn. I mean, that's what they are. I mean, you know, I love my church and, you know, although I'm not on staff there anymore, I do volunteer regularly. Sure. You know, Perry is a great leader and I know that he's much more qualified to answer those type of things, but I think that we are a church that focuses on change. I really believe that. And, you know, my leader at New Spring, who I serve for, her name is Meredith Tatum. She's a great leader, she's a mom, she's working hard, kick and tail, taking names. And you know, just the other day, we had a meeting and we sat down with our team and she just kind of said, "Hey, listen guys, what's working, what's not working? Like be honest with me." And you know, the fact that she's willing to change process, I mean, we're the ones that are deep into it, right? And so we're the ones that are really seeing what's really going on. And so for us to be able to say, "Hey, you know, this form that we're using, like it really does no service to anybody. It's difficult, you know, is it really necessary?" And she's like, "You know what? It's not necessary and we're going to probably get rid of that." And so I think that they're, what I've noticed at New Spring, at least, and I'm just using this as one of the many churches that I've seen do this, is that to be intentional requires just being willing to change. And so I think that is where I've seen a tremendous growth in our church. And that, you know, if you were to ask anyone on staff, you would, "Hey, what did you do? And how long have you been there?" They'd probably tell you, "Hey, I've done three different roles, I've been moved around here and there." I mean, there are just people change roles all the time. It's like the spirit of change. And so I think that that just goes all the way down the ranks. Anything else you want to tell us about culture, Chris? You know, I just really believe that it is something, it's really something that we can think about that can help change the way we do ministry. And it's something that I've enjoyed and really seen that that transition process really is critical. And so I believe that if you can evaluate it and you can get excited about it, then it's really something that can be great benefit to the organization. Cool. What's the best way for someone to learn more about you and culture bust, Chris? Well, I think you could simply just, you know, go to culturebust.cc on our landing page. There's a place to sign up and receive the components of a vibrant ministry culture video and you can get that in your inbox. And I think that's just a great way to start. And then, you know, if there's all kinds of information and resources out there, and that would probably be what I would say to do. Cool. Okay. Chris, thanks so much, man. Thanks so much, Carrie. I appreciate you, bro. So I'm really grateful for Chris's insights. And again, if you've never really thought about culture, I just want to encourage you to do that. You need to think about culture because you have one, whether it's good or bad. That's true at home, right? Like, you go into your house and it's either a good place to be or not a very happy place to be. That's culture. It's either supporting your goals or it's not supporting your goals. Seems true with churches, businesses, organizations, anything. Everything has a culture. Healthy cultures attract healthy people, unhealthy cultures attract unhealthy people. So super helpful for that. Now, Chris has got a special offer for podcast listeners. Now, he will do a complete assessment of your culture, like pull your staff and volunteers. It's not regularly. It's not inexpensive. It's a $2,000 package. And I know for some of you are like, "Whoa, that is way out of my price range." But for a lot of you who listen, you're like, "Yeah, we invest in consultants from time to time." Well, if you're of the mind where you're like, "Okay, we're ready to make that kind of investment," just go to culturebus.cc/carry and you can get that $2,000 assessment for $999. That's right. And it's only available to the first 10 listeners who go there. So just go to culturebus.cc/carry. And if you're one of the first 10, then you can get that for half price, a complete analysis of your culture. I've had it done. It was so helpful. I learned some things. I'm like, "I thought we were more on board than we are." You might learn great things or you might learn very different things. But just go to culturebus.cc/carry and you can get that. And anything else is all in the show notes as well. You can go to karrynewhop.com/episode37. And again, it's only the first 10 listeners who get that. So hey, thanks so much for listening. We are so grateful next week, episode 38 and episode 38 is for all of us who struggle in prayer. And I have this theory. I'd love to get a poll done sometime, but I think church leaders struggle with their prayer life more than we talk about. So there's a guy named Jared Brock, a millennial. He's like 25 years old, struggling in his prayer life, church leader type guy, more and more like part of a local church, but not on church staff. And one know how to uninstall his prayer life so literally, went on a 37,000 mile trip around the world. I didn't think the world was that big, but he did it, went to all kinds of different countries to study prayer. And so I've got a fascinating interview with him for episode 38. And hopefully that can help kickstart your prayer life. And either way, it is a fascinating story. Best way to make sure you get it is to subscribe. And you can do that by hitting the subscribe button on Stitcher Tune in radio or of course iTunes. And for all of you awesome people who keep leaving reviews, thank you. It is helping this podcast continue to be in the top 50 of all Christian podcasts on the interwebs. And man, I'm so grateful for that. I just love getting this content out to people. And by the way, just a little shadow, my friends at churchleaders.com. Probably a lot of you, if you read my blog first found it on churchleaders.com, they've got a new podcast. You should subscribe to that too. It's just called the church leaders podcast, how complicated is that? That's awesome. So, hey, thanks so much. We'll see you next week. And again, if you hit subscribe because it's free every Tuesday, a new episode just magically appears in your inbox and we'll talk to you then. Thanks. And I do hope this has helped you lead like never before. [MUSIC]