The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 035 – Leading Young At North Point Church—An Interview with Clay Scroggins
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 35 of the podcast. My name's Carrie Newhoff, and I hope our time together today helps you lead, like never before. Today's guest, a guy by the name of Clay Scroggins. And if you just got back a couple of weeks ago from the drive conference, you will have probably met Clay. He is the campus pastor, lead pastor, of North Point Community Church in Alfreda, Georgia, to which many of you are going, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no." Andy Stanley is a lead pastor of North Point Community Church. Well, yes, he's a senior pastor, but Clay is a campus pastor. And we're gonna talk to Clay about leadership at a young age. And he is very honest and very vulnerable about his own, you know, insecurities and struggles and some of his successes as well. But he got foisted into senior leadership when he was 30. And then a few months ago at age 34, got tapped on the shoulder by Andy and said, "Hey, come on over to North Point Church and lead us full time." So that's what Clay is doing. And some of you, you are young leaders and you're just looking for other leaders to mentor you. And we've already had a couple of conversations like this. And part of that is just 'cause I'm just really passionate about young leadership and about passing the torch to the next generation. And so if you listen to episode 17 with Josh Gagnon or John Stickle at episode 29, you heard a couple of other leaders who were put into senior massive leadership responsibilities very young and how they're struggling with it and coping with it and actually succeeding at it. And we're gonna add Clay to that list today. And Clay's just a lot of fun too. And if you've ever struggled with like, you know, do I have to become a different person to be a great leader, man, you're gonna love Clay's interview today. So some of you are young leaders. I hope it'll encourage you. Some of you like me are not young leaders quite anymore, but you're working with young leaders and maybe you're afraid to relinquish control or you're not exactly sure what it looks like to work with young leaders. You're gonna love Clay's episode. So really glad you've joined us today. I wanna say thank you. Thank you to all of you who have listened. You know, we kind of hit a milestone. The podcast is about nine months old. We launched our first episode, like first real episode in September. And we had a milestone this month, a quarter million downloads. That's like crazy. I didn't think that would happen. I don't know whether I never thought it would happen ever, but certainly not so fast. And what that means is you've been sharing it with people and telling other people about it. And hopefully, you know, it's helpful. That's sort of the filter I try to run everything through is if I listened to this and spent an hour of my life, it wouldn't help me. And I hope these podcasts have helped you. And one of my goals is to help you and your team and all the leaders we can lead like never before. And you've made it an incredibly rewarding journey. I do take time to read every single review that gets left in the iTunes stores and in different places online. Thank you for all of you who have done that. And just continue to do that. And for those of you who have subscribed and shared it with friends, last episode, we talked about the Overcast app, which is something you can download on your iPhone. And it just makes podcasts listening a lot easier. We'll link to that in the show notes again. But hey, you guys rock, you know, thank you so much. And for all of you who engage on the blog as well, that's just at karaenuhoff.com. Thank you. And it's fun. It's been great to be on the road a little bit this spring too. I've been to a number of different cities in Canada and the United States. And I got back from the Orange Conference a few weeks ago where I connected with hundreds of you. And well, actually probably a lot more than that, thousands. But it was amazing. It was just great. And you really make the journey rewarding. And I just wanted to say that that's all. So thank you. Now we're going to jump right into my interview with Clay Scroggins. And here it is. This is all about what it's like to be moved into leadership at a very young age and staying authentic to yourself. So here's Clay. Super excited to have Clay Scroggins on the podcast. Welcome, Clay. - Gary, thank you so much. This is honestly a thrill for me. You are a well-respected man in the world that I live in. I can promise you that. - Well, it's mutual. And hey, you had your podcast debut. Maybe it wasn't your debut last year on the Andy Stanley Leadership podcast. - Yes, so things are going up for me from here. - I was going to say, this is a whole other level. It's a level down, but I'm just really honored that you would guest on both podcasts, which is cool. 'Cause Andy doesn't have a lot of guests on his podcast. - He does not. - You've been on there, Jeff Henderson, the guy who wrote "Power of Habit" has been on there. - Yeah, "Duhig" believe this is-- - Charles Duhig, that's right. And that's about it, so it's rare air, and I'm just thrilled that you'd be here. So I know a lot of our listeners have probably tracked with you, but for whom this is first time, tell us a little bit about your background and about yourself. - Well, I grew up in a small town and the state of Alabama, the town is called Tuscaloosa, and they play football there, and that's about it. - So great, great childhood, great family, great parents. Moved to Atlanta to go to Georgia Tech. I was studied engineering at Georgia Tech, and while I was there, I began attending North Point just as a college student and got connected with North Point Community Church and volunteered there. I was a high school small group leader. I had a young man in my group named Reggie Paul Joyner. - Wow. - It's the son of-- - R.P. - The one and only Reggie Joyner, that's right. - Absolutely, R.P., that's awesome. I didn't know you and R.P. were in the same group. - Yeah, so I took him from ninth through 12th grade and got to be great friends with the Joyner's through that, and yeah, and just fell in love with ministry, honestly, Carrie. I mean, I don't have a big, God called me into ministry moment. I really do feel like I looked at my life and thought what would be the most fun thing that I could do with the gifts and the life that God has given me. And so ministry was it for me. So I moved to Dallas, Texas. I went to seminary there at Dallas, psychological seminary, met my beautiful bride at seminary. She's a Texan. We moved to Georgia in 2006. I worked at, I've bounced back and forth between Brownsbridge Church, which is a campus of North Point Ministries and North Point Community Church. So spent a lot of years in high school ministry and then campus pastored at Brownsbridge. And then as of two months ago, I'm back at North Point. - Yeah. - So you are the campus pastor or lead pastor of North Point Community Church, the campus, which is interesting 'cause a lot of listeners would be like, wait a minute. How can you be the campus pastor at Alpharetta? Isn't there a guy named Andy Stanley? - Did you take Andy's job? - Yes, and you kind of did, didn't you? Well, not really. - Yes, please. In some way, I mean, Joel, Tom, honestly, I mean-- - Joel did. - Yeah, Andy would say Joel Thomas took my spot and then Joel, months ago, moved to Phoenix, Arizona. It would be a senior pastor of a church there. - Which is really cool. - Well, let's back up and talk about that for a second 'cause obviously Andy and Reggie Joyner and Lane Jones and Rick Holiday and Julie and a few others, they started North Point Community Church, Bill Willett, and Andy was always a lead pastor and then about what, 14 years ago, they started multi-site, but Andy hung on as not only the lead pastor of North Point but the campus pastor of the Alpharetta location of North Point until when did he tap Joel on the shoulder and ask him to step up? - That was four and a half years ago, probably. - Yeah, so until five years ago, Andy was both. The senior pastor, lead pastor of North Point plus the campus pastor and then Joel took that over and was the first lead in Alpharetta and now you follow Joel. - That's right. - So those are big shoes to fill and of course, you're 63 years old and have a lot of experience in that area, right? - Oh my gosh, not quite, not quite, how old are you Clay? - I am 34, so when I moved to Brownsbridge to be a campus pastor there, I was 30, so. - Wow. - Yeah, that's been a big journey for me, for sure. - Yeah, and we've had a few episodes where we've talked to younger leaders, you know, guys who are in their 30s who are leading significant ministries, Josh Gagnon on episode 17. Then recently, I think it was episode 29, John Stickle from Valley Creek in Texas, leading 4,500 people on two locations and now at 34 years old, you're leading North Point community church in Alpharetta and how many would typically attend the Alpharetta campus on a Sunday these days? These kids and adults, let's count the way most church leaders do not the way North Point does, which is like as conservative as possible. - Yeah, we'll go anywhere from 11,000 to 14,000. - So 34 years old, you're leading a campus of 11 to 14,000 people and prior to that at Brownsbridge, I mean that was pretty overwhelming too, you're what? - 76,000, 66,000 people at Brownsbridge. So that's pretty good baptism. And is it true? I think I've heard people say this, I've never asked you, but do you have your doctorate or like a master system? - I do, yeah. - You're Dr. Scroggins. - I am, I am, and yes, I did stay at a holiday and express last night as well. So there you go, that's fine. - Yeah, I got a, I wrote a dissertation two years ago on the topic of online church that is already irrelevant because of how fast the church is moving in that space, which is great. We should be, but yeah, that was a great, great thing for me. - Well, you should have done what I did. I don't have a doctorate, but I have my master's dissertation or thesis in Calvin's preaching, which is firmly lodged in the 16th century and hasn't changed in 500 years. So there you go. - So that'll be another follow up 'cause I'd love to talk to you about online church 'cause that would be fascinating. We're probably not gonna get there today, but Clay, one of the things I've always appreciated about you and we've known of or known each other for, I don't know what, seven years now or so, is you don't seem to be a leader who really easily fits into anyone else's mold. You've got a great personality and one of my earliest memories of you, for anybody who's ever been to the drive conference at North Point and it's happening again in May of this year, you were DJing Drive. I mean, and I don't just mean like spinning tunes. I mean, you were right into it. You rap, you dance, you do comedy really, really well. Not exactly the button down lead pastor of North Point Community Church type profile you would expect. So tell me about that. Do you ever feel the pressure as a young leader to be somebody that you're not? Because you're in a pretty massive role and yet you kind of get to be yourself. - Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think honestly that's just, and thank you so much for those comments and I don't feel like I do any of those really, really well. But I do enjoy fun. I think that's a big part of my personality is if it's not fun, I don't really want to be a part of it. But you know, for me, I just, I love people who can be themselves and I've always wanted to just be me and enjoy myself and not take myself too seriously. My biggest fear going into ministry is that I was going to be constantly surrounded by boring Christians and being surrounded by Christians. That has definitely happened. But fortunately, I work with a lot of people and I work in an organization just like yours, Carrie, that we value fun. We want people to smile. We think that that is a really, really healthy attribute of a great church. We want to be able to party hard here. So I try to help out with that as much as I can. But yeah, I think for me, it's just a value to be able to help people feel the full spectrum of emotions. And that's really to jump ahead for us. I mean, that's one of, as I look at what we're trying to do at North Point, when we're thinking about planning our services and what we're trying to do, that's a big part of what I'm working on right now, is how can we create a 65 minute experience for people where they smile, laugh, cry, feel, hurt, and emote in so many different ways? That's a very important thing for me. Well, and I think that's great. I was at the very first drive conference back in 2005, the very first one that North Point ever put on. And I just met Reggie and he said, hey, why don't you come on down for that? And I still remember, like there was the church monkey thing, I don't know, some of the listeners might have been there in the room. But I had never laughed so hard in church, and I laughed 'til I cried. And I remember breaking a category for me, 'cause I'm more of a button down type than you would be, and I certainly haven't, well, I used to DJ in high school, but that was a whole other era. I was like, records, remember them? Well, that's cool again. But anyway. DJ Canada. That's it, that's it, Clay. So, I mean, but my style's a little more button down, but I just remember that breaking the mold for what church could do. And that is one thing North Point really values. Why is fun important? Tell me about that. 'Cause that is still category smashing for a lot of church leaders. As strange as that sounds. I think because fun is fun is like music, it's universal, everybody at some level desires it, and I'm sure there's some kind of chemical release in your brain when you're enjoying something. And so I want people to enjoy what they're a part of. And so we try to be careful with that. I mean, I mean, I probably lean a little more youth ministry on Sundays than most people do because of just my experience in my background. And so we try to be careful to not make it slapstick or too cheesy or indefinitely not inappropriate. But at the same time, I want people, I think it gives people an escape in some ways too to be able to allow God to raise them up out of whatever trouble or anxiety they're feeling. I think that's important. I mean, for me, one of the greatest ways that I am trying to get better as a preacher is by listening to comedians because they really are. I'll tell you a guy lately that I've been listening to a lot of is a guy named Nate Barghatsy, who was on Jimmy Fallon. And he's just got the driest way that I love. And it just helps me, honestly, as a communicator to learn how to pull people's attention, to tell stories, and then just to laugh. I mean, I think it's just healthy. - Hey, if you're wondering, we'll link to that in the show notes. Nick Barghatsy, Nate, gotcha. That's someone I've never heard of. But yeah, it really is interesting. And I mean, Fallon's a great example. That guy is genius. And he just looks like he shows up at work every day and has a blast. - Exactly. And that's what I love, Kerry. I love when people are having a great time doing what they're doing. And if I'm gonna talk about the grace and love of Jesus, I better have a great time doing it because I don't know anything in life that is worth more and that means more than that. And that brings me as much enjoyment. So that's a big part of who I am. - I can see that. We find, too, or at least I've found in teaching. If you're gonna deliver something really serious, it's a great idea to get people relaxed ahead of time. Because when people are relaxed, when people are laughing, when they've had some fun, their defenses are down, they already like you, they're listening. I mean, Andy does that masterfully. Not every message, but a lot of messages. He says some stuff that makes people laugh early on. And that's sort of him. I mean, he is really funny, quite sarcastic. I think it's also a technique that really helps. And people are gonna, where's the scripture and all this? Well, Jesus got accused of being a glutton and a drunkard. I don't know that maybe gluttons, we would be accused of being in a church, but drunkards and like, come on. Well, okay, John, the Baptist showed up and he was all serious and you killed him and you don't like me either. So it's kind of interesting. Now, one more thing on style. So when I look at your style, and again, I've had the benefit of being able to observe you, you're not an Andy clone. I mean, even in your communication style, sure, there are influences and we're all influenced by people. But I mean, you work directly with Andy. You work in, quote, his church. You set him up as a campus pastor Sunday after Sunday. Talk about that pressure and the freedom that comes. Because I think it takes a great leader, like Andy, to be able to put somebody in who certainly owns the mission and vision, but is not, you know, Andy minus two decades. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'll say just one practice that I have adopted that I feel like does help me with that. Because I'm not immune to that. I mean, I, obviously, because I listen to him multiple times a week and sit in meetings with him, it is a great tendency of mine to mimic him. And I have so much respect for him. I mean, of course, no one has had more influence on me and ministry more than Andy Stanley. So, of course, the natural pull for me is to mimic him. But I actually, I try to be very intentional to not do that because I don't think that would be healthy for our church, but also I want to be me. So I have, and this is honestly learning from him, I don't know anyone who listens to more preaching than Andy. That guy listens to more podcasts than anyone I've ever met. Somebody, somebody told me, I mean, somebody who would know told me, it might be as many as dozens a week. - Yes, I'm like, okay, he gets more hours than I do then. Like, I can't listen and work at the same time. So like, but it's crazy. And he will listen to like unknown preachers and known preachers. - He, he told me the other day, he said, you know, I realized I haven't really listened to John Piper ever. And so I went back and listened to his last 12 messages. (laughing) I'm like, are you a cyborg who does that? (laughing) I could agree. - Wow. It's motivational for me. And the great thing about it is the, I think when you listen to one person and you fixate on one person, I think you naturally gravitate towards that style. But when you make yourself listen to a lot of different voices, I think it actually helps you find your voice. Because of the diversity of what you're inputting, it actually helps you create your own voice in a way. - So that's such a good point. I mean, obviously I listened to an awful lot of Andy. I don't think there's anything he's preached in the last decade that I've really kind of missed, right? And his keynotes and so on. But yesterday I was on a Tim Keller marathon. It was just 'cause I'm, you know, I teach locally as well. And I listened to like five Keller messages in a row. And by the end, whenever you're captive to a particular voice, I think this is really good. Whenever you're captive to a particular voice, you know, by the end I was like, oh, I wish I was like Tim Keller. I wish I was that well read. He quotes like 15 books in a message. And I'm like, I think I've read 15 books in my life. Like I don't know. - That's like completed. - Yeah, exactly. - But you're right. And I think that's a great temptation for a lot of us who are communicators and leaders is that we fall captive to our favorite person. And then that almost gravitationally leads toward imitation, which is not good. And if you go back to episode one of this podcast and Andy was my first guest. Andy encouraged the same thing. He's like, you know, don't imitate people or don't even copy people's messages because I think you lose the burden. First of all, discovering the message for yourself. And secondly, you lose your voice and your identity in the process. And you know, Andy's not trying to be anyone else. He's trying to be Andy and you're trying to be you and I'm trying to be me and that's great. Good point, good point. So 30 years old, you get called tapped on the shoulder to become the lead pastor of a church of like five, six, seven, eight thousand people. What are some of the challenges that leadership at that age and stage brought for you? - Yeah, that's a great question. Two things that come to mind. Number one, I was so intimidated to lead people that were older than me. And I think I just thought that there's some kind of secret wisdom that comes with age. And since I didn't have the age, I must have been missing the wisdom. And there is some truth to that. I mean, certainly age does bring you experience and experience should bring you wisdom, but that's not always true. - It can, but it doesn't automatically. - Exactly, but there's plenty of immature, 60 year olds. And then there's plenty of super mature 16 year olds. - Very true. - Yeah, that was just, that was an unnecessary intimidation. And looking back, I wish I would have cared less about it. And I wish I would have spoken it more to the people that I was leading in a honoring way of just saying, hey, I recognize that I'm younger than you. And that doesn't mean it really anything to me other than you have a lot of experience that I have to learn from. And so I wish I would have handled that better. I think I was just so, I think in some ways I tried to be, I think it's one of my least favorite times of my life when I was trying to be someone that I really am not because I felt like I needed to act older or try to be someone other than myself ultimately. So that's a regret that I had as a leader. Another thing I think I learned in that stage was the temptation to make it seem like you have all the answers is such a strong temptation as a leader. And I wish I would have asked for more help. I am more comfortable asking for help now five years later than I was then. And maybe, I think a lot of that is just maybe comfortably with myself, but I wish I would have asked for more help. And I think I just thought, okay, well I'm young and people may be thinking, oh, I don't know if you can do this. And so I need to act like I've got it together or I've got to put on the perception that I know what I'm doing. And I wish I would have been quicker to ask. - No, those are really good insights. I mean, it's funny, I took over senior leadership when I was 32, except it wasn't for 6,000 people. It was for six, like literally six. That's how big the church was. And so it was a bit of a different, you know, it was mega church, it was, is there a micro church? That's what I was leading. But, you know, I felt that like there was a 40 year age gap often between me and the leaders around the table. So I didn't struggle as much with the first, but I definitely struggled with the second. And the second was just like, I thought I had all the answers. I was 30 years old, I had this all figured out, you know, I'd been to law school. Oh my goodness, I had all the answers. Yeah, what did I learn, you know? I felt like I spent too much of my 30s having all the answers and then, you know, I spent most of my 40s trying to ask questions. And I think that's really wise. And actually, people come alongside you a lot easier when you ask questions, right? And they're really grateful for it. And half the time they know you don't know. Exactly, you're just telling them what they already know, exactly. Yeah, it builds so much trust. And it's so counterintuitive, because you think trust is built if I have it together and do the job. But trust is actually built when you invite people in to help you do the job. And it is such a counterintuitive way to think about leadership for me, or at least for me, it was. I mean, my intuition was figure it out and make it seem like you know what you're doing. When in truth, I should have let people know, "Hey, I recognize I don't know and I'm inviting you in." That's a really good principle. You know, what did you say, trust is built when? Yeah, I think trust is built when you not when you act like you have it all together, trying to get the job done. But when you invite people in to help you do the job, I say, "Thank you." That's so good. So, you're 30 years old, you've been in a senior leadership now, I think you can call that campus pastor of a mega church for four years. Do you think you're a generation? You'd be barely, you know, just in the-- I'm on the edge, yeah. You're right on the edge between millennial and gen X, right? So a young exer, an older millennial. But do you think your generation leads differently than boomers or older gen Xers? And if so, how or why not? Yeah, I think I don't feel comfortable speaking on behalf of my generation. (laughing) Maybe you did four years ago, not anymore, right? I will tell you maybe some different, I will tell you some values that I have and I don't know if these are different or not. But Carrie, I detest in authentic leadership. I detest anything that smells of BS. I would much rather you shoot me straight and tell me the real reason why we're doing this and ask me to get on board than to make up a reason that you think would appease me. And I don't know if that's a trait of my generation, but I do know watching my grandmother's church, it feels so inauthentic. Right. And I don't think it is, I think it's style, but-- Yeah, 'cause deep down, they're not really liars, but there are things that maybe they say or do that just don't smack of 100% truth. Yes, I went to lunch with a local church pastor in our area and he's much, much older than I am. And I wanted to reach across the table and grab his shoulders and shake him and say, will you talk to me just in a regular voice and not the pastor voice? And I don't know if that's true of my, of our whole generation, but I just know that I love authentic leaders, leaders who are not okay with sin, 'cause I think sometimes we think, oh, authenticity means that I drink a lot of beer or authenticity means that I can cuss in my message, you know? No, I mean, I want someone who's righteous and holy and pure in heart, but I want someone who's real and who is gonna tell me the truth, and who's gonna be themselves and be the same on stage as off stage. Well, it's interesting, you know, almost every generation alive right now has been sold to from the times that they were kids, right? Like even in the 50s, you were selling to kids and families, but I mean, I don't know whether any generation has been more sold to, marketed to, or had more disposable income than 35s and unders today. And so you're used to seeing the pledge and then getting the product and seeing the gap. And that's kind of how marketing and hype works. I wonder if that's part of that and, you know, and then there's that assumption, right? If you go back into the tension that you talked about that, okay, now you're the leader, you know, everything clay, and you can feel that fake factor. I mean, you can Google this if you want, but there's the imposter syndrome. And deep down, we all think one day somebody's gonna find me out, one day somebody's gonna find out. I don't really know anything about leadership. And yeah, that's one of the things I love about millennials is there is no spin is like just don't spin it. Just tell me the truth. - Yeah. And I think that's what I regret most about my, the last four years of leadership for me is that it took me a couple of years to feel comfortable to be me. But once I was, I am so much more comfortable now as a leader. I'm not, for instance, let me give you a simple example of this. Last night we had a meeting with what essentially our deacons, but we call them the ministry team representatives. There's about 100 people in the room. And it was, it was my first meeting here at North Point leading that team. That was a Wednesday night. And then tonight we have a night of worship. So back to back nights. And that's very rare in our world. - It is. Yeah. It's a simple model of church. - Right. - So they're out two nights a week. - Exactly. So one of the MTRs raised their hand two nights a week. Right. So one of the MTRs raised, she raised her hand and she said, hey, those are the very end of the meeting. She said, this is a real challenge to have the night of worship the night after this MTR meeting because it's two nights of her babysitting. I don't know that we can do that. Is there, if there's any way that you guys could not plan that next time, that would be great. And, you know, everything in me just wanted to say, I'm so sorry and blush by it or brush by it. But I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna tell this lady the truth, which I think she will appreciate, which is scheduling a night of worship in our world is extremely complicated because it's for the entire church. So we're having a schedule around every other ministry area in our church, which is really challenging to do. So the MTR meeting bumped up against the night of worship and that wasn't even a blip on our planning radar. So of all the other things that, no, I didn't say that way, but I just told her lovingly and kindly, hey, you know what, it is a real challenge to schedule those and I can't promise you that it's not gonna happen again because we just can't, we've got so much going on. We couldn't afford to account for the MTR meeting. And so, and I think, as I flip myself around, that's what I would wanna hear. I was at what we just had a Costco built in our area, which my gosh, I'm just elated about. And at this Costco, they don't do gelato carry, which really frustrates me because I love the Costco gelato. And I went a couple times and I thought, oh, well, maybe it's just not here yet or maybe they haven't added it yet. And I finally asked one of the guys who worked with us and said, hey, where's the gelato? When's it coming? And he said, well, you know what, we realized that it's just not profitable and so we're not putting in any more of our new stores. And it kind of stung for a second and then I thought, all right, well, I'm not making money. - Exactly. And I'm not gonna not come back to Costco because of that. So it was so great to get the truth. I'm like, thank you. I mean, that's good to know. I mean, I can handle the truth, even though they couldn't and a few good men. - So yeah, so you got four years of this under your belt. And as you look at sort of the authenticity and that idea that you had to be somebody that you weren't in leadership. And again, just say what you wanna say, but like what were some push points? What were some pain points where, okay, four years ago, I would have said or done this. - Yeah. - And today I'm doing this way. And then what difference has that made on your leadership? How have leaders responded as you've kind of pulled back the veil and said, look, hey, this is who I really am. - You know, I really wanna be liked and that is a struggle for me. And I honestly need a group probably to help me through it. But I think I just am more comfortable now with the fact that there are some decisions that people are just not going to like, but it doesn't matter. I need to make the best decision and I need to not be afraid to stand behind it. And that feels like such an elementary thing to learn in leadership. But for me, that was a mountain of learning for me. And I'm still good grief. I mean, wanting to be liked never goes away. I don't live. - Sure. Yeah. - If you really wanna be hated, there's something else. - Yeah, there's something right. It's a great point here. You're probably, can't imagine you're a pastor, you probably work for the DMV or for over time Warner Cableers. - Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. I really appreciate the honesty. And I think there is something in that. And I think one of the tensions, the longer you lead is, okay, I'm over the desire to be liked and I realize I'm gonna make unpopular decisions. But then how do you not grow cynical or hard hard? Or just roll your eyes or, you know, perpetual sarcasm. It's like, of course she's gonna ask, why are we doing this right up against a night of worship? Don't they always ask those things. So, okay, that's fair. - I'll tell you one other, sorry. One other one is learning to appreciate everyone's role in the church. I mean, we've got, you know, in our world, we're not a very traditional church and we have some people that come out of traditional churches. And I think in my immaturity, I used to get annoyed at them and think, oh, we'll go find a more traditional church, particularly people that would wanna turn down music or they would want us to do an invitation after every service or something like that. I would typically just say, you know, oh, you know, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Go find another church. You know, that was kind of my attitude towards them. And I think that looking back that was just immature, I think as I'm trying to grow, I'm finding that we need that voice in our church. And even though we may not lean in their direction as far as they would like, they actually have a very valuable voice at our church and we need both sides, not in both sides, we need all sides. And so I think that's another thing that I just was too arrogant, probably, or I don't know, too ignorant, in some ways, to understand the value of a 70-year-old and a 20-year-old both having two different voices in the same body. - Well, and that's a much more complex level of leadership as well. - Sure. - Because it's pretty easy to be self-selecting and everybody at our church is 25 and single. - That's right. - Woo, you know, or everybody's 50 and empty nesters. But it's much more difficult to try to bridge social divides or economic divides or racial divides or any of that inside the church. And that is a level of leadership that's difficult. While we're on the subject of millennials, there's a big debate right now happening in the church world. And you could write a thesis about this which could then be outdated in a year, just, you know, if you're looking for something to do about millennials in a tractional church. So North Point, along with a handful of others, is the marquee of a tractional church. And what I mean by that is, you know, it's not that North Point doesn't do mission. I mean, you have Global X and lots of community partners and so on. But basically, we wanna create an irresistible environment that people can invite their own church friends into. Attractional, that's what it means. And is a tractional church gonna work as well with millennials? Anything to say on that, Clay? - Yeah, I mean, I think in general, for us, we're not winning in that area. - Okay. - You know, I'll tell you, when North Point got started, we had the Yin and the Yang, so to speak. We had Andy Stanley preaching on the weekend and we had Louis Giglio preaching during the week. So we had a great head, a great brain on the weekend and we had a big heart during the week. And it was a such a remarkable combo. And so Louis just had such a great voice with teenagers and 20-somethings. And then Andy had just such a great way with wisdom, with families and adults. And so it was just such a great combo. So we, you know, now obviously Louis has started his own church and down in Atlanta and they're doing great. And it's an amazing, amazing job. - Still working with millennials. And I mean, it's largely a 30 and under 30. - It is, it really is. And we have become, particularly, our church and bucket looks most different because it's an in-town church. And it definitely plays way younger than any of our other churches. But we have really drifted towards becoming very family heavy. And that's a great thing. I mean, our kids ministries, I think, are just exceptional. Our student ministries are fantastic. We are a great family church. But that's something that's definitely on our radar is are we missing a generation? That 22-year-old, do we have a place to invite them to? Do we have a place, a way for them to belong? I mean, we are certainly asking those hard questions. I mean, that's real time this week, for sure. - Having that dialogue around the leadership team. - Oh my gosh, absolutely. - And then there's the bigger question too, right? Like, when you look at churches that are effective in reaching millennials, and I mean, North Point has it chair millennials as well, but are we just actually keeping the church kids who grew up? Or what about that whole generation of unchurched millennials? Where are they going and who's really making a dent in that universe, and then it gets even a little bit thinner, doesn't it? - Oh, absolutely. And we're working through that. I mean, I think what we're trying to figure out is what is a way to integrate them into the flow of our church without having to create something unique for them, and I don't know that we can do that. I think they need to create something unique for them. - Like a different kind of environment that was targeted at millennials. - Exactly, again, these are thoughts in a conference room, this is not tried and true on the street, for sure. - Well, and that's what I really appreciate too, and being, you know, we're a strategic partner, not a campus, but having some of these conversations, a lot of the times it's easy on the outside looking in, going, well, North Point's got it all figured out, it's firing on all cylinders all the time, and the reality is the questions are the same around every leadership table, and nobody's winning on every front, despite what they tell you publicly. And I think the courage to lead comes when you're able to have that really hard conversation around your leadership table and say, you know what, we're weak in this area, or we're not doing what we think we could do, and I think that's where great leadership over time comes, so totally appreciate that. What would you say, I mean, you're two months into the job, three months into the job, but as you look, we talked a little bit about your first couple years in leadership, but as you look ahead as a leader now, and in your current season, what are the biggest challenges you're facing or feeling? - You know, I think I'm still finding my confidence as a leader, and leadership has no playbook, right? I mean, there is no manual for leadership, and you ultimately, the leader is the one who charged the course, and I am still, and so much of it is your gut and your intuition, and, you know, like right now, we're a 20-year-old church that I feel like has gotten significantly more complex than we were 10 years ago. - Yep, and that's because it's six locations and much bigger and-- - Absolutely, and there are things that we can do now that we might should do now, that we couldn't do 10 years ago, that we probably didn't do because we couldn't do. So that's just natural maturity. I mean, there's things that you can do now, carry because you're 50, and you probably have a little bit more disposable income than you had when you were 30, and your kids are now out of doubt. - Absolutely, no question. - Some of that's just natural, and then some of it is additional, unneeded complexity. So I'm working through that right now, and my gut says we're too complex. I don't have any hard data for that, though, and so I'm trying to determine how ruthless or how focused do I get on that issue when it's just my gut, and it's not something that I can just prove with info, because the other thing, speaking of this meeting we had last night with all of our ministry team representatives, there's about 100 of them in the room, and I ask this question to them. Now, each one of them volunteers in one singular area, and I ask them, do you feel like we've gotten too complex, and they look around and go, well, no, 'cause I just worked in my area, my area is great, and I love what I do, and I know why we do what we do, but I'm looking at it from a 30,000-foot view, they're looking at it from, or maybe even 60, and they're looking at it more from a 10,000-foot view, so I don't know that they can see it in the same way that I can, and so I think that's my challenge, is at what point do I feel comfortable and confident enough as a leader to go, you know what? I'm gonna trust my gut, and I'm going to start making decisions based on what I think is the direction we need to head. - Yeah, when you look back, do you find your gut's been fairly reliable? - You know, that's a hard question for me, Carrie, because I feel like one of the dangers, one of the hard things about this organization that I work in is it's so large, it's such a machine, and we have such a huge safety net because of the way we organize with our, we have a large central organization that plays, they're such a great safety net for any decisions that I would make, and so, and it's probably an insecurity for me as a leader, is I've never really had to risk much because I work for such a great, sound, healthy, trustworthy church. So I don't, you know, that's hard for me to even answer. - No, I know, that's fair enough. I mean, I look back on my 20 years of leadership and go, "Ah, sometimes I wish I trusted, "I did my first decade just based on gut." I was like, "I think we should do this, "I think we should do that." And then, you know, you get some learned behaviors, and you're like, "Oh, I probably shouldn't do that." "I'm gonna run all over people." But sometimes I look back and I'm like, "You know what, your gut's pretty trustworthy as a leader." If it points in the right direction, if you end up burning people, hurting people, you know, all that, it's a constant challenge. And then, I think even for listeners with much smaller churches, there is always that debate. I mean, if you're doing 150 people, like, I mean, when we started Kinexis, I started with nothing, not even a bank account. You know, the very first purchase was I needed a non-denominational computer. I went to the Apple Store and bought one with my own money. That's how simple it was. - You needed a non-denominational computer? - Yeah, so there's a whole story behind that. That's another podcast. But yeah, yeah, I just needed something that I owned, not a denomination. And so I started, I just went to the Apple Store and I bought it. And I mean, you get to North Point now, and every computer has a barcode, and they're on three year recycle things. And like, when do you go to that level of complexity? And some of that is necessary. And then, when does it become too much? I mean, those are real issues. And if you've got a church with 300 people with a thousand people, that's our threshold right now, is just crossing a thousand. It's like, well, you need more systems than before, but everybody kind of hates the bureaucracy. One of the conversations we're having is we move into our new facility. I mean, we're moving from a 5,000 square foot office to a 24,000 square foot building. And I mean, we're gonna have departments, and we're gonna have this, and we're gonna have that, and we're like, whatever happened, it just going for lunch. Whatever happened, it just all piling, in someone's car, and just going for pizza. - And that's where we are, Carrie. That's exactly where we are. - Yeah, and you don't wanna lose it, and yet you need some structure. If you're actually, you know, we have 2,000 people who call our church home, 2,200. If you don't have infrastructure, and you don't have some bureaucracy, you're dead in the water. Well, that's fair. Personally, for you. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, in terms of the journey, you've got young kids, you have four kids, which is amazing. You're great following Instagram, by the way. - Just a lot of fun. - Just a lot of fun. - Yeah, thanks. - And what have been the biggest challenges personally? You've been very open and transparent, but anything else you wanna share, just about the whole leadership journey? - Yeah, I mean, we have a three-month-old right now, so I feel like my job is so easy, compared to what I've got going on at home. - Wow. - Okay. And I say that not because my wife is one of your podcast listeners, though I think she is, but it really is. And so I, yeah, I think, you know, I mean, fortunately, I worked for a great leader who modeled this so well. I mean, Andy's kids are fantastic, and they're not perfect, but they are great kids. And the thing that I love about the model he set is his kids really do love our church, which I was their student pastor for a while. And so that's just a goal for me. I want my kids to love this church. And then that statement brings in the back of my head that North Point can always hire another lead pastor. My kids will never get another dad, hopefully. So that is just a, that's a North star for me and my wife. And so I mean, I really do try to be as dogmatic as I can to be home before dinner and be able to sit around the table with our kids, which usually doesn't end without someone getting in trouble at this point in life. So even that is stressful. - Yeah. - You know, the other thing Kerry that I think is helpful for me, and this is just me, but me and my wife were in this together. I mean, we really believe that God has us, where he has us together. And I feel so grateful for her in that regard, but we feel like a team that we are pouring our lives out together on behalf of the local church. And so because of that, I think it helps us run. It helps us run maybe at a little bit of a faster pace, but we're running at the pace together. So that's where we are, but good grief. It is being a dad, I feel like is way harder than being the leader of this church. - Well, and the culture is what you said it. To Andy's credit, I mean, choosing to cheat, what's the new book? I always forget the new title. - Something about work. - Something about balancing work and family. It's a good title. But anyway, we'll link to it in the show notes. - So memorable. - So memorable. But Andy did do that. I mean, he went home, and I know a lot of the tension is, no, while our church is growing, it's like 300 people now, and it's not like the old days, or it's 1,000 people, it's not like the old days. Reality is, there's very few churches bigger than North Point. And it is possible to carve out, you know, maybe not 37.5 hours a week, but certainly not 77.5 hours a week. - No, I think 45 is reasonable for me. - Yeah. - But I'm having to say, I mean, Andy is ruthless about saying no to stuff. I mean, not, Kerry, I've watched him after a service. Someone comes up to him and says, "Hey, I'd love to go to lunch with you." And I've watched him look at them point blank and say, "I can't do that." And he just lets it hang there, and it stuns them because they think, whoa, you're the pastor, that's what you're supposed to do. And then he'll tell, you know, I've heard him actually tell people, you know what, the reason why you love our church is because I won't go to lunch with you. - Mm-hmm. - Which really makes people think, you know. - That's like, okay, I think about that for a week. - I gotta think about that, right? - Can we have coffee? - Yes. - Can we have coffee? - Can we have coffee, Andy? - Really? - Right. - Yeah. - I think, yeah, I mean, he has set a model, and you know, my personality is so different than it is. So, I mean, anybody that comes up to me, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, let's totally go." You know, I'll send you a schedule invite, you know, so. - Well, and that's part of authenticity too, right? Like, if you said that, it might actually, well, it might be clunky anyway, but like, that isn't you. And so you've got to figure that out, but I think there's a great book that our team is working through right now, our leadership team. I don't know that you've seen it. It's called The Essentialist by Greg McEwen. Fantastic. It's the best book on saying no, I've ever seen. I'll send you a copy, The Essentialist. Oh, no, no, that's not what it's called. It's called, see, I'm having book title trouble today. Essentialism, essentialism. - Essentialism, even more people better. - Yes, it's one word rather than two. And we'll link to it in the show notes, but it's a fantastic book. And I'll make sure you get a copy clay, but it's really good on saying no. So if you struggle in that area, okay. Last question for you before we connect on where people can connect with you, 'cause I would never get away with not asking this question. Okay, so you've worked with Andy now for almost 10 years in different capacities on staff. If you had like three top lessons you've learned working directly with Andy, what would you say they are if you could pick two or three? - Yeah, I'll tell you a real quick. This is a little anecdotal story that I was, I went to Monday, was sitting with him, and we're at a restaurant in Alfredo. I mean, literally 12 people came up to him and said hello. And he was great with all of them. And I preached a series last month that was maybe some of the best response I've ever gotten to anything I've preached. And I got this comment a lot, which I was telling Andy about. They would say things that people would come up to me that have been here for a long time, and they would kind of pat me on the head and say, boy, we have really watched you grow up and you are, I thought we would never say this, but you are almost as good as Andy. And it felt so patronizing to me. But I know they meant it well, but it just felt so condescending and patronized. So I was telling him about that, just telling him how much, you know, how bothered me. And I know he can relate because people say that. I mean, people that listen to his dad still say that. - You're almost as good as Dr. Staley. - Exactly, exactly. And so we had just had this lady come up to us who said, she said, hey, I just want to say hello to both of you. We started going to North Point three months ago. It has totally changed our life. She was like, I know that sounds like an overstatement, but I'm telling you, it's totally been such a huge thing for us. Her name is Andrea. I said, Andrea, what's your husband's name? She said his name is Hocan. He's Swedish. - Wow. - And I was like, wow, a Swedish guy and his wife. And they're three kids, nine, seven and six at North Point, plugged in in the last three months. And I'd, so I tell Andy that comment about the compliment people paid to me that was so condescending. And he said, he said, listen, he said, you need to ignore every single one of those comments. He said, you need to be thinking solely about Andrea and her husband, Hocan, who do not care who Andy Stanley is. They don't care who you are, they're unchurched and they need to be connected into community and into a relationship with Jesus. And I just thought, for a guy who's been at this for as long as he is, his ability to stay disciplined and connected to and on mission in regards to us being a church that unchurched people love to attend, his tenaciousness towards that is, it is so remarkable. So I think that's my favorite thing about him is he does not waver away from the vision that God put in his life or that God put in our church or however you do. - That's amazing. - It really is, it's so good. - And so affirming and freeing for you as a leader 'cause he doesn't want another Andy. - No, he does not. He wants unchurched people to love the church. So more than he wants a platform, which is great. The second thing, Carrie, he is such a good listener, not just personally, but he, in our leadership team meetings, my favorite thing about him is he will let us complain, talk about what's wrong, talk about the things we hate about our organization for as long as we would like. And he does not get defensive and take offense. He just says, we need to think through that. Wow, that's good to know that you feel that way. I mean, he's so good at just letting people get that out. And it just creates a really healthy dynamic in meetings, I think, where we feel pretty comfortable to speak honestly about what's really going on. And so those are just two things that I really do love about working with him or him. - That's fantastic. So Clay, I know there are some people who are gonna wanna track with you. Do you wanna just share what the easiest way to do that is? 'Cause now you're gonna have all these lunch requests. - I'm gonna go have lunch with Clay. - Right, yeah, you will love it. Yeah, I guess just on Twitter and Instagram, I'm just Clay Scroggins on both of those. My email is clay.scroggins@northpoint.org. - You just gave away your email. - I did, and I'd read my own email. I have not gotten to the point where I've passed that off yet. So I don't know when you get there in life, but I'm not quite there yet. Northpoint.org, that's our church's website as well. - That's amazing. Clay, hey, every time we get together, it's amazing, and thank you so much for pouring into the leaders listening today. - Hey, Carrie, you pour into the local church so well, and this is your podcast, your blog. They are gifts to the church, so I just appreciate you. - Thanks, man. - Yep. - What a great interview with Clay, wasn't that? And can you believe it, he gave away his email address, like for real. So there you go, Clay, you may regret this one day, but I'm glad you did, and Clay is a super accessible, super fun guy, and if you don't follow him on social media, we'll link to his Twitter and his Instagram. I mean, he is a hoot, and you can see how he spends a lot of time with his family with four kids, and I mean, he's just a great leader and a great friend. So Clay, thanks for being on the show, and all the links are in the show notes, just go to kerrynewhough.com/episode35, and next week, we are gonna come back talking to Tom Rayner. Tom is a blogger, podcaster, extraordinaire, also the president's CEO of LifeWay, and Tom and I are gonna talk about why churches die. He has written a ton of books, and one of his recent books is Autopsy of a Deceased Church, and so I'm gonna drill down with Tom on that. Like, how do you know if your church is dying? And what are the characteristics of a dying church? And Tom and I have a great time talking, it was one of those podcasts where I think we probably talked for two hours in like an hour if it got recorded, but anyway, that's the next week. Episode 36 with Tom Rayner. Easiest way to make sure you catch every episode is to subscribe. We are still not charging for that, probably never will. It's free, so just hit the subscribe button on your phone or wherever you listen to this, and can't wait to connect with you again next weekend. And thanks so much for the milestone too. That was just amazing. I mean, a quarter million downloads in nine months, that's unreal. I mean, thank you, thank you, because I kind of feel like this is our thing. I don't think this is my thing. I think this is our thing. And you guys make it so amazing. So just thank you. And we'll do this again next Tuesday. And we'll see you then. And I really hope in the meantime, this has helped you and your team lead like never before. - You've been listening to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)