The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 033 – Growing Up With Gay Parents—An Interview with Caleb Kaltenbach
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before. In your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 33 of the podcast. My name's Carrie Newhoff. I really hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. And my guest today is, I think somebody you're gonna hear an awful lot of over the next few years. His name is Caleb Coltonbock. And Caleb and I have gotten to know each other a little bit over the last few years, mostly just through Facebook and chatting online and on the phone and now via this interview. Actually, he's invited me to go out and speak at his church, Discovery Church in Simi Valley, California. So I'm really excited about that next year. Caleb has a fascinating story. In fact, he's got a book coming out on it called Messy Grace, it'll be out this fall. And he has a fascinating story. And the story kind of goes like this, was not raised in a Christian home. His parents had like a distant Christian memory, but it wasn't something that was really a big part of their lives. And when Caleb was two years old, both of his parents came out as gay and they divorced and they pursued same-sex relationships independently of each other. They actually moved to different states. And so he was not only a kid who split his life between two parents, but he was growing up now with gay parents who were not together anymore. If that wasn't interesting enough, when Caleb was a teenager, he actually decided to go to Bible study because he wanted to disprove Christianity. His mom in particular was very, very hostile to Christianity and how they hated gays and lesbians. And you should never be a Christian and Christians are the worst. And of course he rebelled and actually went to Bible study. Fascinating. So at Bible study became convinced that Jesus was who he said he was, felt a call to ministry and became not only a Christian, but a pastor, which caused a lot of strain in his family. And the interview today is a story all about how Caleb as an adult, as a Christian, as a pastor came to terms with the relationship with his parents and how he tried to show them grace even while disagreeing with their lifestyle and the choices they were making. And it has a surprise ending. So I hope you listen to the very end of the interview. It's absolutely fascinating. And that's my guest today, Caleb Coltonbach. And again, he's got a book coming out on this, this fall called Messy Grace. You're not gonna wanna miss it. I've read an advanced copy. It's amazing. Thanks so much for joining in. Like you never know what you're gonna get on this podcast. You get everything from life stories to leadership, to stories of personal heartbreak to skills. I mean, next week when we come back, it's gonna be all just technical skills in terms of technology. But basically what I try to do is I just try to help you drill down on some of the issues that are really relevant to you in leadership today. And there is hardly a debate that's causing more division or got more people on pins and needles than the same sex debate. So I think Caleb is a needed voice in that community. And probably I would think all of us are gonna get mad at some point or another during this interview. But I hope you just hang on long enough to get through to the end because there's an amazing ending. And I think Caleb has done a masterful job of navigating complex relationships and the truth of the gospel and the love of God and Jesus. And isn't that at the end kind of what we all wanna do? And if you wanna know more, everything is gonna be in the show notes and you just need to go to carrynewhough.com/episode33. Without saying a whole lot more, let's just jump right in to the podcast and the interview with Caleb Coltonbach. Well, I'm super excited to have Caleb Coltonbach today on the podcast. Welcome, Caleb. - Well, thank you so much for having me. - Hey, we are gonna talk about probably one of the most controversial subjects around in the church today. And again, I know there's gonna be listeners who are like, this isn't even controversial. Why are you even having the discussion? But the discussion's been incredibly personal for you, Caleb, which I think is great. And the issue is same sex relationships. And you got introduced. Let's just sort of start with the story because this is really gonna be about your story and how you grew up and what God's done in your life and in your parents' life. But give the listeners a bit of background into how you were introduced into the LGBT community. Quite young and tell us how it happened. - Well, both my parents were professors at different schools and universities in Columbia, Missouri. And I was two years old. Both of them, you know, decided that they didn't want to be with each other anymore. They got a divorce and both of them in their own way came out as gay and lesbian, respectively. My dad is a gay man, my mom is a lesbian. My dad was always more in the closet, but my mom was very loud and proud and very boisterous about her sexuality. She found a partner that she fell in love with. They were together for 22 years. Her name was Vera. And they moved from Columbia to Kansas City, Missouri, where my mom started working at the university there in Kansas City, University of Missouri, Kansas City. And her partner opened up her own psychological counseling practice. And so I would spend most of the week with my dad, but then I would spend weekends and breaks and trips and holidays with my mom. They didn't want to get babysitters, so my mom would take me with her to bars and clubs. I would go with her to parties. I would go with her to marching gay pride parades. I mean, just almost everything you could imagine. I was very much involved in. My mom was on the board of directors for the Kansas City area chapter of GLAD. Very politically active, worked on Dukakis's campaign. They worked on Bill Clinton's campaign. I mean, they were just so active in everything that they did. And one of the biggest things that they wanted to get across to me was how much Christians hated people who were in the gay and lesbian community. And they would tell me that and tell me that and tell me that. And my dad, when I was with him on the weekend, would take me to a church. But in this particular church, they never really talked about the gospel. They never talked about changing lives or anything. It was always social issues. And so I didn't think all Christians were like that. Until one day when I was marching in a gay pride parade. And it was definitely very interesting. That's a whole another topic. But at the end of the parade, there were all these Christian protesters on the sidelines holding up signs saying, God hates gay people. There's no room for you in the kingdom. And it was very disturbing. - Wow, how old were you then? - I think I was definitely in elementary school, maybe about nine or something. I can't really remember. - And so is this the '80s then when this was happening? - Yeah, this was the '80s. So the shock of it was still there. - Man. - What was even more shocking was they were spraying water and urine on people as they were passing by, saying, this is what the Lord thinks of you. I'm not kidding. - Oh my goodness. - It was awful. And I just remember my mom looking at me and saying, see, I told you, Christians hate gay people. Christians hate people that are not like them. I always figured I didn't want to be one of those. And so I ended up actually continuing to grow up in that community with my mom. I didn't have a lot of friends 'cause there weren't a lot of other kids who had a lesbian for a mom and a gay man for a dad and probably more prevalent today than it was back then. But I didn't have a lot of friends. So my mom's friends became my friends. One of her friends, his name was Lewis. He was this young guy probably in his late 20s, early 30s. I mean, looked like Evander Holyfield in his prime and we went to the same doctor and he had become a friend of mine. And I remember going into the doctor's office and he had dropped a lot of weight and he had these lesions on his forehead. And I asked him what's going on and he told me that he had AIDS. And again, this was the 80s. - I'm old enough to remember when AIDS first sort of emerged as an issue and I remember some of the hateful things that Christians said about people with AIDS. - I probably still say, but it was far worse back then. - Oh yeah, saying, oh, it's the homosexual disease. - Curse from God, genocide on purpose, the whole deal. Yeah. - Which is funny because studies have shown that more heterosexual people have AIDS or at least some of the studies that I've read. And so that's neither here nor there, I guess. But I remember going into Lewis's hospital room a few days before he died. And he was literally a shell of a man that he used to be but that's not what surprised me the most. - What surprised me the most was his family, they were plastered up against the wall like they were waiting for a firing squad to come at them. And he would ask for something to drink and they would give it to him and, you know, they really didn't want to touch him. They really didn't want to be around with him but they had their big old KJB Bibles out and reading them. And I just said, you know, mom, why are they treating Lewis like that? My mom said, well, Caleb, they're Christians and Christians hate gay people. They feel uncomfortable around people that are not like them. So I gave Lewis a kiss on the head and I said goodbye. You know, it was just these images and others that I don't have time to share just forever ingrained in my head. And I remember going into high school and I just remember thinking I want nothing to do with Christianity and my worldview was already messed up because of how I was raised and the things that I were taught to believe was okay. And one thing that I did though was I joined this Bible study to learn how to disprove the Bible. - Okay, so you went in as a skeptic. - I went in as a skeptic. I actually described myself as a ninja. I pretended to be a Christian even though I wasn't. It was actually kind of amusing. I had this new revised standard version of the Bible that was really, really dusty and old and it smelled old and it was, you know, it was my dad's and he hadn't opened it in a while. And I took it to this Bible study that I got invited to and they told me to turn to first Corinthians and I was in first chronicles and everybody's reading these nice verses from Paul and they get to me and I talk about slaying somebody with a sword and just didn't really fit. Yeah, it didn't fit. - They're both C-words, they're both C-words Caleb. You get points for that. - You know what? Absolutely, at least I was on the right letter and I remember they told me, well Caleb, first Corinthians is in the New Testament. I said new so I guess there must be an old one. That's how much I didn't know about the Bible. And I kept on going and I found out that Jesus was not like the people on the street corners holding up signs. Jesus was not like the people who would yell things that my mom or dad and make fun of them and make fun of Vera, my mother's partner and, you know, that Jesus was not like that. And I still remember when I decided to follow Christ, I remember I decided to get baptized and I didn't tell my parents. And so I got baptized without them knowing it. And I went home and told my mom and dad and they grounded me. And after that, I went to a youth conference and a week to the day I was baptized, I felt like I gotta put it on my heart to go forward and get my life to the ministry. So I did and I went home and I told my parents I'm gonna become a pastor and I was gonna go to a Bible college and basically they disowned me for a period of months. Didn't wanna have anything to do with it. - Both of them disowned you. - Yeah, so I mean, the best I could describe it, Carrie would be how Christian parents feel when a gay child comes out to them. I was coming out to my gay parents as a Christian. I know that's how backward and backwards, but that's the best I could describe about it because they saw me as somebody that needed fixing. They saw me as somebody who didn't have my act together. So to some degree, when people come out, I can kind of relate to that feeling of rejection and feeling alone and feeling like you don't have anybody and it just makes it so difficult. - So this is honestly, I mean, you've got a book coming out on this called "Messy Grace." It'll be out, we think in October is the release date of 2015. - Yeah, October 20th, 2015, "Messy Grace." Mark that down and I got the opportunity of reading an advanced copy. You sent me an advanced copy and I'm like, oh my goodness, it's the strangest story in the world. And what, I mean, there's so many places we could go with this. Let's back up and we've got time. So I mean, we got lots of time today, but tell me a little bit, like, did your parents have any basic religious, so everybody's got a religious orientation, but I mean, were they raised in Christian homes or it sounds like your dad was at least marginally interested in church by the time your parents split up? Was that your mom's background as well? Or what was their virtual leaning before you were born and when you were born? - Yeah, so my parents, both of them had a Christian background. - Okay. - My mom actually went to a Christian liberal arts college in Kansas and majored in music. And my dad grew up in the church and then converted to Catholicism, or maybe converted as in the right word, but transitioned to Catholicism and then transitioned out of Catholicism and became an Episcopalian. You know, my mom, you know, same thing, Catholicism, then became an Episcopalian, got together with Vera, went to a Methodist church, then switched to Buddhism, then switched to being Wicca. And then, you know, later on is, I'll tell you, both my parents actually found the Lord. - Yeah. - Later on, you know, which that's part of the story too, how they both came to Christ later on, just a few years ago, a couple of years ago. So they both had Christian upbringing, both in Kansas, you know, both all four of my grandparents were very, very strong Christians. I know that for a fact. So, absolutely. - Yeah, and I mean, I say this as a Canadian, it wasn't exactly, I mean, if you're in the Midwest, it's not exactly the most gay, friendly community in the world, sort of that culture, right? Like, you know, they weren't exactly in a place where coming out was a normal thing in the 1980s. They were definitely breaking ground in that area. - Absolutely, and even growing up, they grew up in small Kansas towns, you know, that definitely in the '50s and '60s would not lend itself well to in any way, shape, or form coming out. - And would your parents say that they knew they were gay before they got married, or how would that have worked out, or do you know, I mean, they might not even-- - No, what's interesting is both of them said that they knew they were gay before they got married, but they never said how far back they knew they were gay. And, you know, they still got married and tried to have kids several times and loved each other, at least very weird, they loved each other, I guess. So yeah, all of that is very, very unique. And I know that not everybody who identifies as gay or lesbian was beaten or abused or bullied or molested, not everybody. But, you know, just without having the time to go into it, I think that there were things that happened in my parents' life that I think probably contributed to some of their feelings. I'm not saying that it contributed to their sexuality, maybe it did, but, you know, if I had time, you know, I could tell you some stories about my mom and what happened to her, and you'd say, "Well, yeah, I would hate men too if that happened to me." - No, I can see that. So both of them had questions about their sexuality or leanings, but they, you know, being in a small community, they got married, they had kids, and do you have brothers or sisters, or is it just you? - No, it's just me, I'm a loner. - And then you got moved, if I remember correctly, between your mom and dad, like it was shared custody. Was it every other weekend, or how did that work, or every other month, or? - For a while there, it was like every weekend with my mom during the week with my dad, and then it shifted to every other weekend with my mom. And then when I became a Christian, and, you know, the roof fell down, I spent a lot of time with my Christian friends. So I'd go see my mom once a month, mainly 'cause of the tension that existed. You know, a lot of that tension is described in the book. I tried to go into great detail describing that kind of tension that happened, but it definitely impacted our relationship a lot. - So tell us some of the tension you felt growing up. I mean, what was that? Take us back to that place. - Well, yeah, so my tension was kind of twofold. It's like first I was an insider in the LGBT community, and then I became an insider in the evangelical Christian community. So I feel like there are kind of two tensions there that I felt. First, there was the tension of being in the LGBT community, and I honestly felt the way my mother, the way her friends felt that Christians really were out to get people who were gay or lesbian, and make sure that they didn't have rights, make sure that they conform to everything that they thought that they should. I mean, I totally get that. I totally understand how people in the community feel because I got a front row seat to that, and I felt that way too. And unfortunately, Kerry, there are people who are Christians who act like complete jerks. And they give the rest of us a bad name, right? - Yeah, well, and you were as much a victim of that kind of abuse as your mom was, or your dad would have been. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I saw it. I mean, my mother, again, very, very in your face out being a lesbian. She had bumper stickers all over her car, things like graduate of film in Louise Finishing School, or Lorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General. I mean, just different bumper stickers like that, and she had a purple wrap, which I hated driving her car. - Oh boy. - I got some weird looks, and I would kind of play it off some of the times. It was funny, but honestly, so I mean, I felt the tension of what it felt like to feel rejected by the Christian community, and feel like, hey, maybe God really doesn't love you, and maybe if that's who God really is, maybe God is just uptight, maybe he doesn't want to have anything to do with you. But now that I'm over here on the Christian side of things, I mean, I feel a different kind of tension because I know that not all Christians feel that way about the gay and lesbian community. I mean, I am in no way shape or form out to get people who are in the gay and lesbian community. We have people in our church, even, you know, who identify as gay or lesbian, who attend our church. But we still believe what the Bible has to say about God-defining sexuality between a man and a woman. I mean, very much, I believe in that. But I don't think that impacts how you feel or love about another person. I think there's a big difference between acceptance and approval. And there's a lot of tension that I feel between acceptance and approval. God calls us to accept everybody. That doesn't mean we approve of everything that somebody does. - Well, and that's a really interesting theory. I mean, I've heard that before. You write about that in the book, but I mean, for you Caleb, the thing that's so surprising is that's not, I think the problem with a lot of the discussion around sexuality in general, as well as same-sex relationships is simply, you know, a lot of us have ideas and a lot of us have theories. But for you, it's like, no, I'm talking about my mom. I'm talking about my dad. I'm talking about my friends. I'm talking about the people I grew up with. So it stops just being categories and it starts to be people. So walk us through that. What is the difference between acceptance and approval? And I think this will speak really deeply to people who are in close relationships. And I think a lot of us have close relationships with people who are gay and lesbian and yet might also sense that the scripture does lead us to define the proper, the God-given context for sex as being a relationship between a man and a woman. I mean, how do you navigate that tension between acceptance and approval in that context? Yeah, so when my parents went through a period where they were mad at me and so on me, that kind of thing, I really feel like they were upset because they thought that I would not accept them. They felt like I would reject them like a lot of other Christians had or that if I did want to be in a relationship with them, I would unleash all of my fancy evangelistic moves on them and they would become a pet project, which absolutely we should be sharing Christ with people. But it's best done in the context of a personal relationship, not in the context of blindly calling out morality on people that we don't even know, but really living Christ out as an example. And so I felt like they said, hey, you're not going to accept me, but I tried to do everything I could to let them know. I do accept you that there's nothing that has changed about our relationship, nothing. You're always my mom. You're always my dad. You are always welcome in my house. You are always part of my family. I love you maybe even more now than I did before because I'm not just loving you in my own accord. I'm loving you on Christ's accord as well, and out of the overflow of his grace. And so I think that we have to understand that when somebody we love comes out to us, that doesn't mean that we change our relationship. That doesn't mean that we try to throw a Bible versus at them because they probably already know it. That doesn't mean that we get mad. That doesn't mean that we look disappointed. That we say, hey, thank you so much for allowing me to be a part of this season of your life. Thank you so much for letting me in on what's happening in your life, for having a front row seat, for trusting me enough to come out to me. I mean, I think that's acceptance. Now, that doesn't mean that we approve of everything that happens. - Right. - We don't approve of everything that happens. We don't approve of the behavior. We do believe that sexuality is between a man and a woman. But that's where I think we have to draw the line and we have to walk the line, and that's attention, Carrie. Hey, I love the person, nothing changes, but that doesn't mean that I approve of what happens. - So how did you navigate that? I mean, is it that you just assumed they knew where you stood as a Christian on the issue of sexual relationships or would it come up in conversation? Like, I love what you're saying about, I love you as much, maybe even more, because now I have Christ's love and his power at work in my life. But I'm just trying to figure that out. So what did that look like day to day as you discovered what it was like to be a Christian now? Something that your parents were adverse to. And how did you have that conversation with them? Or did it even come up in conversation? - When I first became a Christian, my mom and her partner quizzed me pretty hard about being a Christian. They asked me random questions. They said, do you really believe a seven-headed dragon is gonna come out of the Mediterranean and see one day talking about the book of Revelation? Of course, I was a new Christian. I didn't know. - Right. - I don't know anything about interpretive process or genres or apocalyptic literature. And so I said, sure, if that's what the Bible says, and of course that made them laugh. But I mean, I'm a high school student. I'm a sophomore in high school. What am I supposed to know? I've never read the Bible. I just believe now that it's true because I believe in Jesus. And so it quizzed me about that. And they started quizzing me about sexuality, about how God defines that. And I had read up a lot on that before I became a Christian. I really studied it. I really wanted to see what God had to say about it 'cause I knew how much this would impact my relationship with my parents. And I did have to defend my new view of sexuality. And I also had to tell them over and over again that this does not change our relationship. Now on my end, it never changed our relationship, but on their end, it did. And so I feel like when I became a Christian and when my view on their sexuality changed, I think that I lost a lot of trust with them because they identify themselves by their sexuality. There's a great book out by a professor. Her name is Janelle Williams-Paris is called The End of Sexual Identity. And I love the subtitle. The subtitle is why sexuality is too small to define us. And yet because my views on sexuality changed, they were upset because they defined themselves by their sexuality. And so in their mind, I was not accepting of them anymore. And I had to spend so much time treating them well, loving them, even when they came at me with different Bible questions, not reacting so that I could build up that trust again so they could see that in my heart, nothing really had changed. And I think part of the biggest tension between acceptance and approval, the Christians don't understand, Kerry, is that the gay and lesbian community identifies themselves by their sexuality. But when I say their sexuality as being gay or lesbian, I'm not just talking about having sex with somebody. A lot of Christians, when they look at somebody who's gay and they say quit being gay, they mean quit having sex with somebody the same gender. But here's what the person hears who's gay or lesbian. You want me to give up my friends and my community and this movement and this cause that I've been a part of. Because for them, being gay or lesbian is not as much about sex as it is about community. Their community, their cause, their movement, is their identity. And I first learned this from my mom and her partner. I don't remember how I know this, nor do I ever want to remember how I know this. But I know that in the last several years of my mother's relationship with her partner Vera, that they weren't intimate at all in any way, shape, or form. And yet even though they weren't intimate, they still identify themselves as lesbian. - Yeah. - So I'm thinking to myself, okay, how can you do that if you're not even intimate? And that's when it dawned on me that being part of the LGBT community, like a lot of Christians think, is not as much about sex as it is about community. It's about acceptance. - You know, I'm glad you touched on that book and that idea of sex, you know, not defining ourselves sexually. 'Cause my next question was gonna be, why do you think sex is so polarizing? And, you know, why do you think it defines us to such a large measure? - I think that, first of all, God created sex to be experienced within the bounds of marriage. He created it for procreation, for protection. I think he created it for fun. It's different things, but I honestly believe that our own simple nature, selfish desire, whatever it is you wanna call it, has taken a hold of this beautiful thing that God has created it and has perverted it. And so I think that that's probably a number of reasons. I think number one, you know, obviously sex is something that is fun. It's something that's enjoyable. And so our human nature is to take whatever is enjoyable and keep on doing it, you know, whether it's food, whether it's working, whether it's exercising. I mean, you can have too much of anything and we can take it outside of the bounds when guardrails aren't put up. But I think another reason, I think it's power. I think that there's a lot of power within sexuality. I think that there's power within having sex with somebody or controlling that person in that sense. I think there's a lot of power. And I mean, look at the porn industry, sex controls so many people, not only the actors and actresses who are slaves to that industry, but also all the men and women who watch it and who are addicted to that. I mean, that's power that they have over those people. - That's very true. - I think there's a lot of power and, you know, money, but I definitely think there's a lot of power in sex. - Yeah, you know, and that's true. And I don't have any stats on this, but I've always noticed that in my view, a disproportionate number of powerful leaders struggle with sex, that that is just an issue that has failed, you know, not only pastors, but business executives and just powerful people. It just seems to be, they seem to go hand in hand. Not always, I mean, people stay very pure in positions of power as well, but it seems to be disproportionate, at least in my view. - Well, I mean, even look at, you know, even some of the presidents of the United States that have really, really struggled with that. And I mean, I'm sure we can throw a number of other world leaders or positions from other countries in there that, you know, there are two things that can take you down, you know, money or sex. And I think more times than not, it's probably sex for a lot of people because there is power, there is addiction in that. - Yeah, and this is not just gay sex, lesbian sex, this is heterosexual sex too. I mean, all of it, all of our sexualities were stained, I believe, by the fall, as described, you know, in the scripture. And as a result, my sexuality is flawed, your sexuality is flawed, and people who are attracted to the same sex also have flaws within their sexual behavior and orientation as well. I mean, none of us has emerged unscathed from that. And I think sometimes the heterosexual Christian community just forgets that. We just forget that, hey, we struggle as well. We just struggle differently. - Yeah, absolutely. We all struggle, obviously. And somehow some Christians feel like they have this brand of holiness where they can't be honest, they can't be real about their struggles. And really honestly, Kerry, isn't the church the first place where we should be able to have safe, messy conversations about issues that we're struggling with, especially with sex, whether you're looking at pornography, whether you're having an affair, whether there's temptation there or even saying, I'm attracted to members of my same gender or I'm gay. I mean, the church of Jesus should be the very first place that we should have these conversations. But most people don't because why would you go to some place where you're gonna feel worse? - Well, let me just add to that. I think you're absolutely right. If you go way back in this podcast, episode number four, and listen, I think it was number four, listen to Cara Powell. Cara Powell, who lives near you, I think, in California, you're in Simi Valley, she's in Pasadena, did this huge study about why millennials are leaving the church, why are kids who were raised in church leaving the church? And she discovered that the question wasn't, the issue wasn't doubt, it was unexpressed doubt, that there was no place to have exactly, as you said, those messy conversations where like, you know what, I think I'm gay or, yeah, my girlfriend and I are having sex and I don't know what to do about it because on the one hand, I think it's wrong, but we're doing it anyway, or I don't think it's wrong, but all of you people think it's wrong, and when you can't have safe conversations, you end up in exactly where you say all the wrong places, talking to all the wrong people, who are not gonna help you make decisions that I think benefit you in the end. And why is that? Why do you think it's so difficult to have honest conversations in the church? And I'm not claiming to be an expert at it. - Because I think so Christians think that when they're Christians, they have to get their act together and have to play the certain part. And I think that when we don't allow messy conversations in churches, we create sanctuaries for fake people. - That's well said. - I think that happens in a lot of churches. I remember a church that I pastored when I was in Bible college. We had 50 people in the church. There were 100 people in the town, something like that. I mean, it was a nice little country church and I pastored there for a year and a half. I kept on trying to get my mom to come. And finally one Sunday she came and heard me preach and said that she was glad that she came but she wouldn't be coming back. And so it was one of the first times I ever got my mom to actually come to church. - Oh, wow. - I pulled up to the church the next Sunday to preach and a couple of the elders were waiting for me on the doorstep and they said that we'd like to talk to you and they took me in the back room and they said, Caleb, if you wanna keep preaching at this church, don't ever bring somebody like your mother again. - Oh, really? - And I said, excuse you? And they said, we are not a church for those kinds of people. Those kinds of people make us feel uncomfortable. And so I said, okay, I quit. I resign, I'm done. - Good for you. - And I walked out of there, Carrie, and I just said, if I ever get to pastor a church, I wanna pastor a church that has people who are struggling with their sexuality, people who are bankrupt, people are having marriage issues and financial issues, people are having issues with their kids, that people are having issues in their work and left and right. I want a church filled with these people because that's the church that Jesus came and died for and is coming back for. That is the church that I wanna have. And so a lot of churches, whether they wanted to admit it or not, have really created a nice little country club feel. Where you coming on Sunday, you get a little nice word from the preacher, pat yourself on the back for living really well and behaving well and adhering to the moral code that the church has. And then you gather maybe in a community group if you're a really strong Christian and you're able to live your life and you keep your little secrets that nobody else knows about. And nobody really talks about that because good night, you do not wanna get your hand caught in a quickie jar at a church like that. - No, you don't. - I was talking to someone who attends one of our locations today, actually, before we recorded this and she was telling me her marriage kind of fell apart and they're trying to put it back together again. And at one point, she just leaned over and she goes, you know what, social media is so fake. Like all these people who pretend to have their lives together and you're kind of looking at it going really, who tweets or who posts status updates about what's really going on? And she's got a point. I mean, not that I wanna air my stuff publicly, but you create this carefully manicured image of who people think you are. And then they, you know, it isn't really authentic to who you are. And so let me ask you, we're not gonna forget, by the way, your parents' story because we're definitely gonna go there and try to figure out, okay, well, how do they end up becoming Christians and like dedicating their life to Christ? But while we're on it, how do you create, 'cause you're the pastor of a church that isn't gonna fire you or make you resign or make you want to resign if, you know, your mom comes to church. So how do you cultivate that kind of honest dialogue in a congregational setting? - I think it begins at the very top with leadership conversations with our elder team and with our staff team. I think that there are issues that we are always talking about and especially living in Southern California, we have to always be talking about how are we gonna handle this same sex issue? If there's a lesbian couple that brings a child that they've adopted to be dedicated, is that okay for us to do that? If somebody who is gay or lesbian comes to our church and wants to volunteer in a certain area, is that okay? Where's the line? And so, you know, obviously at our church, we do believe that sexuality is defined between a man or a woman. We do believe that, but we've created an atmosphere where number one, we allow people to belong before they believe. And number two, we don't push the culture war here at our church. So we're not gonna preach on a subject just to be obnoxious. - Right. - And I'm not saying that all people who preach on those subjects are obnoxious because even my friend Gene Apple at Eastside Christian Church preached a sermon series on homosexuality, not too long ago. And he chose to do that intentionally and honestly, he did a very good job preaching on that. He did an excellent job. But, you know, we are very careful with picking what we preach on in that aspect, not because we're ashamed, but because we understand that there are a lot of people that are struggling with this issue and it's not black and white. And so I think just the acknowledgement carry that this is not a black and white issue. I mean, what is black and white is having sex with somebody of the same gender, that act is a sin. Yes, I do believe that. But everything else surrounding it is not black and white because you're dealing with people. People have depth. People come to the table with different experiences and pains and hearts that they've done and things that have been done to them and joys. And people are really a mosaic of all these things. And so you have to acknowledge that most of what we're dealing with here is not black and white. We have to be willing to have these conversations. And if somebody does come to our church and wants to talk to us about what it means to be a lesbian or to be gay and, you know, is that compatible with the eventual Christianity? We are more than welcome. We welcome them into our community and we say, let's sit down and let's talk about this. Let's be open. - So you have conversations. I mean, I know a lot of churches think in terms of policies. Do you approach things like, let's say, dedication of a child or involvement in the church more on a case-by-case basis? 'Cause I mean, you're not leading a small church of 200 people. You have a church of, I don't know, over 1,000 on the weekend. And how do you handle that? Do you handle that person by person, conversation by conversation? Do you have a couple of rough policy guides or how do you handle that? - Well, you know, the funny thing is is that we haven't had to handle that yet in the app. But especially with the climate here in California, I know that it'll happen sooner than later. And I know that we'll have to cross that bridge. - Yeah, we're certainly having those conversations to at our church, for sure. - Yeah, and I wanna have these conversations now so that when that happens, we're gonna be ready for it. And really, I mean, there's two sides to the conversation, right? I mean, on the one hand, you could say no, because we believe the marriage is between a man and a woman and we don't believe this is healthy for the family. But if you look at the baby dedication as hey, this is an opportunity to influence the parents, this is an opportunity to love the child and to maybe keep the parents in the church. I mean, you have to wrestle between those two tensions. You know what it is like? It's like one of the number one questions I get, Carrie, is hey, I have a friend or a family member who's gay and they're getting married, should I go to the wedding? - Yeah. - And so on the one hand, you know, some people say no, because marriage is between a man and a woman, you need to stand up for marriage. And I definitely understand that. I understand that line of thinking, I really, really do. And personally, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. But then on the other hand, I understand, you know, that people do wanna be a witness to their family and friend and they feel like if they didn't go, that they would really put up a barrier between them and their family or friend. And when tough times came and they wanna earn the right to be that phone call, you know? And if that person sees them as somebody who is against them, you know, especially 'cause they didn't attend their wedding, you know, then they don't earn that right. I can see that too. So I mean, isn't that all part of the tension, right? - It is part of the tension. And I think everybody remembers who didn't attend their wedding. You know, you remember that, you just remember that. 20 years later, it's like, oh yeah, I remember Caleb didn't come to my wedding or Carrie didn't come to my wedding totally. So I see that. I mean, we even have, without getting into a lot of details, 'cause I think you've gotta navigate this in your own context. But we have a class of volunteers at our church or a tier of volunteering where you don't even need to be a Christian to volunteer. And so that creates lots of opportunities 'cause what we discover is that people actually come to faith while serving. You know, when they're shoulder to shoulder with somebody and they actually roll up their sleeves. Now, they're not leading small groups. They're not leading worship. They're not, you know, they're not at that point where they're heavily invested and you need Christians to do that. But, you know, there's gotta be room for everybody in the conversation and everybody in the community. And I think you're right. It's an issue of belonging before you believe. And I think that's how Jesus practiced it. He didn't say, hey, Matthew, you know, you're working for the Romans. You're stealing money and you're corrupt. Scrub yourself clean. And once you've been clean for a year, come follow me. He just said, hey, leave your booth, come follow me. And he did. And in the process of following Jesus, he became a very, very different person. So I think that, you know, that's really helpful between, you know, trying to figure out how to handle the whole issue and basically the difference between acceptance and affirmation. So tell us a rest of the story with your mom and dad. This is spectacular. I mean, first of all, that you became a Christian because I think what I don't want people to miss is that you are as much subject to the abuse of Christians as a child as your mom and dad ever were because nobody really knew that you were going to end up becoming a Christian. You were just one of them, right? And, you know, horrible that people would pick on kids, but you know, they yelled and cursed at you too. - Absolutely. So after I gave my life to Christ and decided I wanted to go to Bible college, I did. And it didn't, it went on staff for 11 years at a church out here in the LA area called Shepherd of the Hills. - Yeah. - And did college ministry for several of those years and was a satellite campus pastor and then moved to go pastor church in Dallas. And my mother's partner had died. And so my mother was all by herself. In the book, I actually share a scenario where I tried to go back and share the gospel with my mother's partner one last time and she refused. And it's a sad story, but I think it really set my mom up for an understanding of Jesus' love because she went through a very, very deep depression. And so when my family and I moved to Dallas, Texas, my mom and my dad separately of one another both moved within a five mile radius of where I lived. And that had never happened before. I mean-- - Since you were what, too, when they broke up or whatever? - Since I was two. I mean, I don't know if you remember Ghostbusters where they said don't cross the streams or else the universe will implode. And that's kind of what I thought. Okay, all three of us are gonna be living here together. I mean, I don't think Texas can handle that. And so they started coming to the church that I was preaching at. And I said, "Hey, you know that this is what I believe." And they said, "Yeah." And I said, "You still wanna come." And they said, "Absolutely." And so they started to come to the church that I was preaching at. It was incredible. And God called us to come out and lead Discovery Church and see me valley. It's my wife's hometown. Had a relationship with the former pastor. I mean, it just made sense. And we really missed Southern California a lot. And two weeks before we moved out here, both my parents said, "Hey, Caleb, you need to know, "I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior." And again, apart from one another, they don't even live together. They didn't even know that the other one was telling me this. And so, you know, out of all the things that happened in Texas, I really think one of the reasons why God sent us back to that area for a brief stint was to help my parents finally come to Jesus. - Wow. - For years and years of making fun of, you know, Christians, you know, my parents would and my parents would listen to like Chuck Swindall on the radio and make fun of some of the things that he was saying. When they go to church, they go to Chuck Swindall's church. You know, my mom does a lot of Bible studies and the retirement home she lives in. But my dad, when he goes, he goes to Swindall's church. And I'm just thinking, "Wow, God, you must be sitting "at your laptop up and having it with an irony button." (laughing) So you just hit every now and then, 'cause I'm just thinking, "Wow." And I think about the messiness. And this is why the book is called "Messy Grace." Not because God's grace is messy, not because the gay and lesbian community is messy, but because all of us are messy. And I think about my parents. I mean, are my parents Christian? Yes, are they actively in the LGBT community? No, do they still have that temptation? Yes, are they still attracted to people the same gender? Yes, do they believe everything I believe about Christianity? No, do they believe in Jesus? Yes, are they going to heaven? Yes, how do all those things go together? I have no clue. It's never been my job to change somebody's sexuality. - Right. - That's between them and God. It's my job in grace and truth to point people towards Jesus and to point them to a better way of living. - Well said. Now, this may be an unanswerable question, but if you had to guess or you feel comfortable answering or responding to this, if your mom or dad, probably two different answers, had to say, "This is what changed my mind about Jesus." What do you think they would say? Or maybe they've told you, I don't know. There were people in my church in Texas who really got involved in my mom's life and my dad's life. And not everybody in the church felt comfortable around my mom and dad, but some people did. And I think the fact that they saw Christians treating them well really made a big difference, how they viewed Jesus. Because, I mean, isn't that interesting that the way Christians treat other people really impacts that person's belief about Jesus? I think that's huge. - Yeah, and I think that's very, very true. We have the Bible, which interprets the Christian faith for us, but as the old saying goes, sometimes we're the only Bible people ever read. And who wants to be part of a community of judgment, rejection, and hatred? I think we're acceptance magnets and we all gravitate toward where we feel accepted, which actually goes back to a point that you said earlier about it's not even so much about sex. It's about being part of a community and being accepted and not being judged, and wouldn't it be amazing if the church was actually that community for everybody? - I mean, that's the way Jesus was. Like with some people like the woman at the well and John Ford, did Jesus have tough words for her? - Absolutely. - He'd go and send no more. - Right? - Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, you know, hey, you're right. You don't have a husband. You've had this many husbands and the man you're with now is not your husband. And the woman thrown at his feet who has caught in the act of adultery, you know, leave your life with sin, go and send no more, you know? Neither do I condemn you. Jesus approached things perfectly with grace and truth. I mean, I think it's John chapter one where it says twice that he came full of grace and truth. So, I mean, Jesus definitely did have to have tough conversations, but the only people he got mad at, Kerry, he got mad at the religious people. - Yeah, he did. - I'm mad at the unbeliever. Never got mad at the unbeliever. And yet that's what's so dangerous about an us versus them mentality. So many Christians, I mean, I mean, are there political influences to this whole discussion? Absolutely, there are. But really, when it comes down to it, Jesus did not go on the culture war path. Jesus went on the, hey, God is for you. He's against you. God loves you. God is not mad at you. God is mad for you. So well said. So, I'm sure, I mean, we've covered a lot of ground in our time together today. I'm sure there are some leaders. We always process things through two filters. I got my leadership hat and then I've got my person hat. I'm just a person. I've got friends who are gay, who are lesbian. I've got friends who are bisexual. Now I lead a church where this is an issue or it has to be an issue, it is the issue of our day, one of the issues of our day. So, what are some first steps? If somebody's like, you know what? I need to, I know I need to do something. What would be a first step or two that listeners, leaders could take to help create a better dialogue in their church? I think that a church leader, number one, needs to create a safe environment. We kind of already touched on this, but create a safe environment in their church where it's okay to have conversations on the gay and lesbian community, the evangelical Christian community, this whole idea of acceptance and approval. I think that we need to be a messy church. I think that we need to show God's messy grace and that's bleeds from the top down, from the elders, from the staff, being able to have these open and honest conversations. I think also engaging in dialogue with people, other churches that are open and affirming. I think that's the phrase that a lot of people use and talk with them about Christianity and the LGBT movement and that culture. Really, honestly, I think openness and honesty is the best policy and I think a lot of church leaders are afraid of what that's going to look like. But not only open and honest conversations, I think that we have to be willing to engage people. You know, you talked about service tiers for churches, you know, where's the line? That's what I've been to some leaders before. Where's the line? Where's the line where you say, okay, everything is okay up until this line right here. I think that a lot of churches need to ask themselves where's the line? And they need to invite people to belong before they believe. But it's hard for people to belong before they believe if you're not willing to allow them to belong because allowing people to belong is also, to some degree, allowing them to participate and not feel like the red-headed stepchild of the congregation or of the church. And so I think that there needs to be engagement in that part. And some of that bleeds over into our own personal lives. I think that some Christians who are evangelical feel uncomfortable around people who are gay or lesbian. I know that not everybody does, but some do. Sometimes it's because it's a lack of empathy. Sometimes it's because they don't understand the community. Sometimes it's because they don't have a good knowledge of the Bible, but more times than not, I think it's because they think, well, if I'm friends with this person, if I get on a personal level with this individual, then that means that I'm accepting their sexuality. And that's why I say there's a big difference between acceptance and approval. You accept the person as the person, as the whole person. You love them, but that doesn't mean you approve of everything that they do. So I think that even taking small steps and, you know, not avoiding conversations, not avoiding topics, being open to what other people have to say, and inviting people over to your house who are part of the gay and lesbian community or maybe a gay couple, inviting them over for dinner, getting to know them, putting, as you said before, a face with the actual individual. Instead of looking at the gay and lesbian community, it's this faceless, nebulous community that's out after us saying, hey, no, this is, this is Peg, this is Lydia, this is James, this is Chuck. These are people that I know. I think that that really helped. - And these are my friends, which is completely different. And I think I also really resonated with what you said, and maybe this is paraphrasing a little bit, but, you know, our sexuality is an issue, but it is not the issue. It is not the deal-breaker in the same way that we deal with, you know, all kinds of issues in the church, our sexual attractions are one of the issues. And, you know, I see it on the same level as, you know, couples having sex outside a marriage with that straight or gay. It's just an issue that the Holy Spirit wants to deal with probably at some point in your journey, and you've really, really helped. I think a lot of us in sharing your story and such a powerful, powerful and surprise ending, like you say, the irony button with your parents both deciding to follow Jesus, which is just huge, and still wrestle down, you know, all the sexual tension that I think all of us have in different forms or another. Caleb, I know people are gonna wanna get your book. It comes out October 20th. It's called Messy Grace. It's being published by Waterbrook Multnomah. And then tell us in the meantime, if people wanna get ahold of you, what's the best place to do that? - At our website, discoverychurch.com. We have a staff listing. My assistance email is on there. - Great. - But I think by the time this broadcast is out, I think that actually there will be a website up for the book. Messy Grace. Yeah, I think it's called messygrace.com or messygrace.org. Either one of those will get you more information on the book. - Well, I'll tell you what we'll do 'cause this is gonna air in a couple of months. We will actually include that in the show notes. And I'm sure there'll be people who are listening to this episode way after the book is released months from now. So we'll get the right URL in the show notes and we will link to that in just a moment. Caleb, thanks so much for sharing your story. So openly, so transparently, I know you've helped a lot of us today. - Awesome. Thank you so much, Kerry, for the opportunity. - Well, I think you'll probably agree. That was a powerful, powerful interview with Caleb. And I imagine you probably got an opinion about it. And everybody does. It's a very divisive issue. And of course we've got show notes we always do. You can just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode33. Any references Caleb made, any links we talked about in the interview will be in the show notes. And of course, you're able to leave comments too. And many of you do on the show notes. And all I want to say with this one is if you want to leave a comment, can you leave a good one? Don't be that person who just starts slamming other people or taking a really rigid position on this. And try to leave other readers better off for having read your comment. If you can do that, I would love that. I mean, I try not to be the comment cop and I mean, about once or twice a week, I'll delete a comment that I just think is out of bounds. I have a comment policy basically. If I think you've crossed the line, I delete you. That's what I do. A blacklisted people who are just trolls and out to get people. I don't want to do that. I just like, we have so many amazing listeners and I would just love for you. If you leave a comment on this to please, please, please leave one that leaves people better off. And maybe leaves the church even a little more advanced in our mission. That would be great. And you are going to want to get a copy of Caleb's book. I know that. So it comes out this fall, it's called Messy Grace. I just want to thank you for listening. And for those of you who are in the trenches trying to navigate with same-sex couples that are attending your church and whatever you believe on that, I happen to align fairly closely with what Caleb says about what the Bible teaches about sex and its place in relationships. And it's just a very, very tough discussion these days. And we need a lot of prayer and we need a lot of grace. And so for all of you who are trying to figure out how to respond in your community, I really hope Caleb's story has helped you. It's certainly given me some insight and that's the goal to help you lead like never before. And for all you awesome people who continue to share this podcast, to subscribe to it, to leave ratings and reviews, so thank you. Thank you so much. I read every single one of them. And if you want to leave a rating or review in iTunes, that would be great. Of course, you can subscribe for free on iTunes, on Stitcher or on Tune and Radio, which is awesome. Now next week we're coming back with episode 34. My guest is Wayne Cordova. And if you're technically challenged, you're gonna love next week. If you are a tech geek, you're gonna love next week because Wayne does something we've never done on the podcast before. He walks us in almost an hour through all these apps and these pieces of software that can make you a more productive person so that you have more time to lead. Very technical. You're gonna love it. Wayne's a lot of fun. That's episode 34. And of course, if you subscribe, it comes for free every Tuesday. So how awesome is that? Thanks again for tuning in. Be gracious in what you do this week. And I really do hope this helps you lead like never before. - You've been listening to the Carry New Hough Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)