The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
Episode 031 – Reaching Hollywood: Keys to Planting a Church Where No One Goes to Church—An Interview with Joseph Barkley
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey, everybody. And welcome to episode 31 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. Thanks so much for being here today. And I hope our time together helps you and maybe your team lead like never before. That's our goal. And today you are gonna hear from a guy I got to know about a year and a half ago. And same mission trip. Actually, if you're a regular listener, that Brad Lominek and I went on, courtesy of Compassion International. He's a guy by the name of Joseph Barkley. Joseph's been a native SoCal guy for a while. He is planting a church in all places. If you can believe this, Hollywood, California. I know in episode 17, we had Josh Gagnon who talked about planting a church in New England and how he was overcoming all of the odds to be able to plant like a very large growing church in New England. And Joseph has done the impossible for a while. He was a lead pastor of Eclasia, a church in downtown Hollywood. Literally, like if you've ever been to Hollywood, it is in downtown Hollywood. And they were reaching like almost 1,000 people on weekends. And then he left last year to start Radius Church LA. And they are just barely launched and already making an impact on the culture. So if you've ever been interested in Hollywood or you're in like a tough to reach area, you're gonna love today. And Joseph is also a younger leader as well. He's got some really cool ideas about how to do outreach into a community that really isn't into outreach. So I love this. I think you're gonna have a really good time and I'm actually stealing some of his ideas for our church. So that's for sure. So that's what's up today in episode 31. You can get all the details in the show notes at curinguhoff.com/episode31, including all the links to Joseph. And hey, I'm just really glad that you're along. I don't know what you're up to. Hopefully something spring-y. As I'm recording this, usually we do these couple weeks in advance. It's still like winter, winter is just hanging on. And I know if you're in the Northeast, it's been just brutal. And hopefully, we got like Crocus is coming up or something really soon in April. Or maybe it's full-blown like tropical heat where you are. If so, just know half the planet's jealous right now. So you need to, we need to find spring. That's what we need to do. Also, just a little update on what's happening in my life. I'm always so grateful to hear from you. So if you're working on something like, just drop me a note or leave a comment on the blog or leave a comment on the show notes for this episode. But literally yesterday, the day before I recorded this, I got in my final content edit on my latest book. And I don't know if you've ever read a book or you're a writer, but for those of you who are, you'll know that writing a book is like exhilarating and exhausting at the same time. And I'm just at the, oh, I'm nervous stage. Like, hope this is gonna be okay. But it's actually a book designed around seven conversations that you can have with your church leadership team. I know a lot of what I've written on the blog over time people have used to bring to their teams. At least that's what you've told me. And so we thought we put it in book form. And true to form, I don't have a title for it. There's like two contenders right now. We're down to finalists. I've been thinking about a title for like a month, but probably within a month, we will have a title for the book. And if you just stay tuned to future podcast episodes, we'll get that for you. But anyway, if you've ever written a book, man, you know what that feels like and it just feels so good to get it done. And yet very nerve-wracking because you kind of have to live with it for years. So that's gonna be out in beta like a galley release soon. And then there'll be a big release a little bit later on. So we'll keep you posted on that. And thanks to everybody who like praise for me on stuff like that. Really grateful. I just hope the book helps you and your team. So we're gonna get that to market in the next couple of months. So that's what's going on in my life. I hope things are great with you, whether spring is early or late in your neighborhood. And without much further fanfare, let's jump right into my interview with Joseph Barkley from Radius Church, LA. Excited to be with Joseph Barkley today. Joseph, welcome. - Thank you, Carrie. Good to be here. - Hey, and it's fun. I mean, I always do these interviews via video. So what you can't see listeners is that Joseph has the fiercest beard of I think any human being right now, which is amazing. 'Cause when I met you, you were clean-shaven like I am. I've been trying to grow a beard for years. Nobody can see it. That's the challenge. But you've got like a serious beard going on. - Well, you know, I'm compensating 'cause Carrie, the first time I met you, you've got that beautiful head of hair and God decided to give me a different haircut. So I have what your listeners don't know is I have no hair on my head. I'm a cue ball. And so the only option I have to change it up is my facial hair. And thankfully I've got a little bit of that. - Well, there you go. And you've got a really sweet servello hanging from the ceiling in the background. - Oh, yeah, my bike. - So nice, yeah. Yeah, so any cyclists out there, you're going to really enjoy this. But that's not why we're chatting. We're not chatting about beards. We're not chatting about cycling as exciting as it is, particularly in a place like California. But Joseph, you've got a really interesting life. I mean, we're going to talk about planning a church in Hollywood today, which I think is just fascinating. But you've been a professional musician. You actually made money at it. Had a band toured for years. You've been the lead pastor now for a number of years of a couple of different churches in the Hollywood area. And now, lately, just I think by the time this airs a month or two, old three weeks as we're recording this, a church planter. Your church just went live to full-time services. So bring us up to date. Tell us the thumbnail version of what God's done with your life so far. - Yeah, thumbnail version is I was born and raised in Southern California, which is where I still am into a house of Jesus believing parents. And they actually, I've only remembered this now recently, they were a part of a church plant when I was a toddler. And I still have memories of these little makeshift church Sunday meetings. And so somewhere that was probably locked into my psyche and gave me whatever that little dose of craziness that a church started to have. I think I blame my parents for it. But they started a little church in a city called Riverside or were a part of a church star called Bible Fellowship Riverside. And I grew up within that community all the way through high school. I made a decision personally to commit my life to Christ when I was about 10. I remember having that first conversation with God, recognizing my need for a savior. And then went through the typical kind of identity, crisis stuff in high school, trying to figure out that balancing act of my activity in God's grace. And so I, you know, one point I probably was living a little bit too much for the popularity of my friends and then at another time was suffering with severe legalism. But all those things now, looking back, are ways that God was wiring me to really, you know, I think relate and interact with a whole host of people. I went on to Biola University and wanted to, I got a degree eventually in business marketing, my dad's in finance. And I thought that's my trajectory. I'm gonna be a corporate attorney was, I had already isolated it by the time I was 17. But I got to Biola and a guy down the hall had a guitar and I thought I'm in college. I think you have to play a guitar. - That's right. - So I picked it up. If I'm anything, I'm a hard worker. So once I find something I want to do, I give it everything I've got. And so guitar was no exception. By the time I graduated, I had a record contract. - It's amazing from like not playing guitar to record contract during a degree. That's great. - I can't say that my grades didn't suffer as I was, I wasn't as good at pursuing, you know, three different lives as maybe some people are. - So you needed a record contract by the time you were talking to rescue you. - Exactly. Yeah, I don't think I would have made much of a corporate attorney. But so I did that and then I actually interned a little bit at a church in the college department while we were finishing up a record. I met my wife at that point, got married in 2001. We got back from our honeymoon, part of which was spent in Montreal, by the way, which is closer to you. - Oh, cool, cool. Yeah, it is. - Got back to from our honeymoon and I left on the road for nine months. That was our first year of marriage. - Yeah, don't do this at home. - Do not. But that's a part of our story. And we did, I did that for 10 years. I was a career musician. I toured our busiest year. We did about 260 dates all over. It's crazy. So tell people, you toured with a band, right? - Yeah, yeah. So I toured a band called Plumline and then we had an alter ego called Finn. We were tour actually, both bands. And Finn was a general market band. We'd play in clubs and different festivals. And in the weekends, we would play for camps conferences, churches as Plumline. And we wrote original worship music. - Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I remember when we met, I'm like, "I listened to Plumline, right after that." - So yeah, they're definitely, you got some listeners hooked now going, "Really, you're the guy behind Plumline?" Well, Orphan, Orphan. - Orphan. And then Katie and I thought we wanna start having kids and the touring lifestyle didn't appeal to us as a way to, as a context in which to raise those kids. So I parlayed that music into writing for TV and film while staying at home in LA. So I had a little home studio. I hooked up with a guy that published a lot of music on television, and that was going great. We got involved in a local church in Hollywood, but no sooner had we gotten there than it was clear that some new things were starting. And that church was going through some changes, but there was a small group of people within it who said, "Why don't we start a church for people who just don't feel welcome in the church?" - That's cool. - And that was an idea that felt really exciting to Katie and I. So we followed with them. We just played kind of a part of the team starting that church. It had its own beautiful chaos. It was a church that was planted with a lot of heart, but just a little bit of strategy and a little bit of a vision. And we learned the hard way that maybe those things should have been in place where we got going. But God did some remarkable things through that group of people and that church still exists at Closia Hollywood. Now while I was there at one point, I began to become more involved. I was leading music almost exclusively there while still writing for TV during the week. And then this is where the story will slow down just a little bit. About five years ago, the man that was leading the church, really great guy, one of my best friends, Brandon, had a gap in the teaching calendar. And he said, "Joseph, I had somebody bail on me. Do you think you could put together a talk on why we sing, why we worship?" And it never preached a day in my life. I can talk like crazy, there's a big difference between those two. But I said, "Sure, I'll take a risk." It was a small church at the time and a lot of us knew each other. So we felt like this is a safe experiment. I put together a talk in a few days, I delivered it. I found, you know what? This is oddly wonderful. I really like doing this in a way that I haven't liked doing anything else in a long time. Also, it seemed like it connected with the people that I was communicating to. So I looked back to Brandon and said, "Hey, if you ever need help again, let me know." And that'd be something that'd be fun to do. Well, jump forward. Six months later, Brandon had discerned that his time leading that church was done. He let the board know and the church know. He ended really graciously and gracefully, but the church went into a pastor's search process during which my wife and I, which this might be a different podcast, but discerned a very clear compulsion to put my name in the hat to lead the church. And, you know, Carrie, if you'd asked me three weeks before we put my name in the hat, if I was planning on doing that, you might as if I was planning on being an astronaut. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was not at all in the horizon, but we did. And then about four months later, after the process was completed, I was unanimously voted in as the new lead pastor, which in that context, it looks a lot more like a teaching pastor. It's like a board of people, a great group of people who put strategy and vision together. And then I was responsible to deliver teaching series and stuff every week as well as some other leadership responsibilities. And so I did that, which kind of served as a crash course seminary for a while. I was thankful for a community that gave me an opportunity and took a risk. But during that time, we also experienced some incredible impact. We grew from a church of about 200 to a church of about a thousand people in Hollywood. Now, this is the interesting part too, 'cause I've been to Hollywood once or twice. And like when we say Hollywood, we don't mean like, oh, somewhere near Hollywood. I mean, this is right near the, what is it, the Walk of Fame? I mean, literally, it is on the Walk of Fame. So this is like downtown as hollywood as Hollywood gets. Oh yeah, we met on Hollywood Boulevard in the Warner Pacific theater theater, built by the Warner Brothers in the 1920s. The Oscars were hosted there one year. And just a tremendous season and an amazing church. So if some of your listeners have friends who live in Hollywood proper in that neighborhood, Ecclacy is still there. And it's just a great community that's serving there. And then, near about, I'd say two years ago, it became clear that God was, as I was getting my feet under me, frankly, as a leader, there was a unique vision emerging. And as I talked about that vision with the existing leadership, it was clear that what we were looking at was a different church, either a radically different ecclesia or a different church. And so wisdom dictated, oh, this looks like it's a time for an ending, which became its own really amazing learning opportunity, but eventually, yes, transitioning out of my role at Ecclesia and then quickly moving towards this really compelling idea that I still believe God planted in my soul. So we're chasing after a brand new church start in a different neighborhood that's called the Verdugos or what a lot of people would know is the Valley. So it spans from like Pasadena in the east, all the way to Van Nuys in the west, but sits north of Hollywood. It's largely unreached under served communities as far as local church goes. And we've been doing that since last June. That's June of 2014. June of 2014, yeah. Wow. And you just went weekly very, very recently, like to Sunday mornings and open with two services and now have an overflow, which is crazy. Yeah, that's great. It's nuts, exceeded every expectation. It really is curious. And you know, you're somebody who's started a lot of things, including a church. There is a lot of very, very busy moments in that season, but I got to tell you, man, we're having so much fun. My family's as healthy as it's ever been. My marriage is as strong as it's ever been. I can't tell you how grateful I am for the challenges that God really put in our path this last year because of what it's, the opportunity it's given us to grow and our dependence on him, the grow and the courage that it takes to not do everything and not seize everyone. And so I stand before you virtually here as a different guy than I was a year and a half ago because of these steps of faith. So we're excited. Well, let's go there. We're gonna drill into like planting a church in a place like Hollywood. So let's start with that. I mean, we episode 17, we had Josh Gagnon on and he talked all about planting a church in New Hampshire. And of all places, you do not plant churches in New Hampshire. I mean, that just doesn't happen. Grew to 2,000 people over seven, eight years and now four locations. I think he's adding a couple more in 2015, which is like just incredible. So I mean, that's happening, but I wouldn't pick Hollywood either. And when we first met and you're like, "Yeah, I'm part of a church plant in Hollywood." I'm like, "Really? Really?" So clearly you're from Southern California, but that is a tough nut to crack. Like of all the places when you think church, the opposite of the Bible Belt would be Hollywood. So tell us about that dynamic. Why Hollywood? What are some of the unique challenges of planting a church in a place like that? Yeah, well, the first why Hollywood, I'd start from just the personal discernment on that is, if I was honest with myself, I would say I'm uniquely drawn to and feel like I have kind of a natural influence within the creative influencing community. So being a musician, that doesn't just lend credibility, it also lends a certain comfort, and contextualization. There's just things that I get because it's who I, or what I've done for so long, that naturally put me in a place like LA. But there are some unique challenges that we're still discerning how those really become opportunities for us. Whatever, you guys are out in Barry, Canada, and I'm sure you come across every week, people who are kind of over it, over whatever it is you're trying to communicate, or what you're trying to say. And if I was to tell you what LA is like, it's like, whatever you guys are over, we were over it first. Yeah, that's right. We lead the way in cynicism and... (laughing) That's a great way to talk about it. I don't know whether this is becoming a Southern California podcast, but like Carl Vaters has been on it, and Cara Powell, and who else? Craig Jutilla, just south of you. Oh, and David Kinemann as well, episode 24. So like everybody says that, like California, it's not better ahead. It's just like, yeah, we're more post-modern, more post-Christian, more cynical, more like, yeah, you don't have anything you can help me with than anybody. So yeah, so you've got that. You've got that dynamic going on. Yeah, so where, I'd say there's three challenges that immediately come to mind when I think about our city. One is that that it really is the first to be kind of over everything. And so they lack any sort, on the whole, LA lacks any sort of a common Christian paradigm, or when they're going through challenges, or they're starting families. Usually those were cultural indicators that, oh, you need to probably get into a church. That was a default assumption or instinct for us culturally for a long time. In Los Angeles, that's just not the case anymore. Statistically, they're not thinking what I need to do is get into a faith community. Right, and when they have a crisis, they're not thinking, oh, I gotta talk to a pastor, or I gotta go to a church, or maybe we should just find a church on Sunday. I mean, it just doesn't show up on their radar screen because you're off the map, like they're indifferent. Absolutely, and a lot of them are even more than indifferent. They're opposed, or cynical, or doubtful, skeptical. So, coming from that kind of cultural vacuum there, where we really cannot rely on any, there's no inherited credibility. Mm, that's a good phrase, no inherited credibility. Yeah. Yeah, so we're starting from a negative place, as far as trust and influence goes. Other ones are just more practical. A low-hanging fruit here as Los Angeles is another expensive urban city to live in, and to have any footprint real estate in, or to pay to compensate people for their work. And so, there's some initial financial, or ongoing financial challenges there. Yeah, it's not a cheap place to plant a church. No, yeah. And you're not drawing. I mean, if you go a little bit south of you to Orange County or something, there's a, it's kind of like a little Bible Belt, not really, but I mean, there's more churches there. But funding would be a big issue, and I think a lot of church leaders could relate to that. It's like, yeah, I don't have people stepping up to write large checks to start churches in Hollywood. Oh, no, not at all. And the average person that lives in and around Hollywood is somebody who has been subsidized by, let's just say mom and dad, or an extended family, somewhere else. And they're coming out here to live their dream and find themselves. That's a wonderful, courageous group of people, but they're typically not deep pockets. And so, even if they decide, man, how do I practice generosity? And some of them, some of these people, the most generous people I know, it's just they don't have a lot to draw from. Right, right, yeah. So they may be bought in fully, but they're, yeah, they just can't fund it to the level that you would find in other places. Yeah, but, you know, as far as getting people excited about a new idea and making a difference in a community, you couldn't ask for something better than this, because they're ready to be a part of something that's bigger than themselves, you know? A lot of them moved out here to do that. The third challenge here, which a lot of maybe your urban listeners would identify with, is Los Angeles, the community of Los Angeles, kind of exists in three different geographic spaces. There's the city that you work in, and then there's the city that you live in, and then there's probably a different city in the sprawl that you have your social connection in. And because of that, it complex, or at least it's, it does not help the isolation, the detachment, that a lot of people in the community already feel. They don't know their neighbors. They're not, they don't live by mom and dad, they're transplanted here from somewhere else. And so, you know, trying to find a consistent, rooted, cloister of close relationships is hard, and then when you exist in all these different spaces, it's hard to get traction with that, and really hard to get a deep friendship, so. And hard to get engagement, too, because if people have a long commute and LA traffic is horrible, and then, you know, they're living in a community where they really don't know anybody and hanging out in another community, that would be hard to get engagement midweek to get people to serve. And have people given up on community? Do you find that they're really still hungry for community? - Oh, that's a great question. I think community is optional, or at least the choices of community are optional, especially when most of our community is something you can log into, Facebook or whatever it is. - Right, right. - So why should my physical community be any different? I will go and I feel like it. I will go when it is clear that there's a perceived benefit to me. - So that's a hurdle, then. It's not like people are like, "Oh, finally, I've got community." And thank goodness for you guys, like you're the only place I can connect with. You're actually inheriting the patterns that they've experienced in the rest of their life and trying to overcome them to help them connect. Did I read that right? - Yeah, well, there's two different kinds of people. One, the ones that you just diagnosed are those who are finding what they perceive as good friendship elsewhere at a time that's convenient for them. But really, and more often than not, this is the case. There are people who just have different habits of community. We're all trying to get at it. I think God's given us all that core need for it. But because we've settled for inadequate means getting that community, like logging into a community or having a lot of friendships, but very shallow engagement with each of them, they bring all of that to a church community as well and trying their best, they still find that they're hungry for more. And so the opportunity there becomes relearning not just the value of friendship and community, but how you actually practice that in your life, how you create sacred space for that and rhythms of that and repetitive engagement, how you become transparent and build trust. It's not natural for many people that we get to serve. - Well, that's really interesting. If we can drill down on that a little bit more, Joseph, so like, what are you doing? How are you responding? Because I think almost anybody can relate to that, right? Like, you don't have to be an Ollie way to go. Yeah, people are very good at community anymore. And we're trying to lead them to a place that maybe they haven't been to before, but they have the way you described it sort of feels like empty calories, right? It's like, well, I've got my community online, I've got these friends at work and all that. And I'm getting a lot of it, but I'm still hungry all the time. - Yeah. - So what are you doing as a church? Like, how are you structuring relationships and how are you encouraging relationships to foster meaningful connection? - Yeah, well, I'm fighting the temptation to program friendship early on and probably forever. We realize that you can't move from a stumble to a sprint. And so if you're stumbling your way into community, what we want to provide, seek to provide, and I think in our best moments, have provided even early on, are very simple ways of glimpsing it, of low cost, low risk, low fear opportunities to be yourself with other people who are being themselves. And in that space, social connection naturally happens. So that happens in our Sunday morning interactions. It happens in our mixer environments, which I hope I get a chance to talk about later. It's one of the most exciting parts. - No, let me just talk about it. - But we create these social, very low program or no program environments where people can non-manipulative places, where people can be themselves, it's a diverse gathering of people, whether on the Sunday mornings or in these other events that we do, where the introvert can find a corner to talk to one or two people for the rest of the night, by the way, that's me. (laughing) - Yeah, me too. - Or the extrovert can work the crowd and can find those connections and network with people, like they're so good at naturally doing. So we find that we just first are trying to provide that so that they find that this is a place where social interaction, I can find it. I can find people who care to listen to me and people that are interesting. And there's a diversity of people. So in a sense, we want them to know that if they're thirsty, this is a place that has water, socially speaking. On top of that, our responsibility carries leaders is to constantly provide a cultural vision. So say, here's what's possible. If you like this, think about this. If this is attractive to you, man, imagine if, what if you had just a few friendships that experience this multi-layered engagement in your life? What if you had people in your life that are the midnight Mayday phone call? And what if you have people in your life that don't always agree with you, but are brave enough, love you enough to talk about that in ways that are respectful? What if you have people that you sacrifice for and sacrifice with? And so we're able to bring it back really naturally from a place of felt need, where all of us are at, to a place of transcendent provision. This felt need that you have, I'll bet that that's threaded to something that God can't wait to give you. And so that happens in sermons, for sure. It happens in the way we're thinking about maybe smaller environments, what we call spiritual innovation, small groups, that's usually those things in churches. I'm constantly trying to discern and learn from the people we get to serve. Man, where are you at? What are your felt needs? Maybe socially, since we're talking about that lack of community, that isolation. Well, let's start there, my experience has been every little felt need I have somehow can be traced to an even better provision that God has for you. So what if you wanted more? Rather than let's just satisfy where you're at, what if you wanted more? Could we give you more? Could God give you more? And what would that look like? Let's find that out together. - That's really cool. So let me, if I could back up a little bit, the sort of, I don't know, party, it's not really a party room, but the mixer, is that the mixer thing where people just get together and you see what happens, the extrovert works the room. The introvert finds one or two people. Tell us more about that, because that's really interesting. And I think church has been so program driven, and as we look to what's next, and I mean, your church plan is still, it's huge for a church plan. I mean, you've got what? How many people on a Sunday? - We had 150 people last week, 150 adults last week. - On week three, that's amazing. - Yeah, that's so, so good. But it's at the point where, you know, that's a lot of people, but it's still very manageable in that way. And so you get them together in mixers, and what happens? - Well, many of those people actually came from mixer event, and Carrie, this is like, of all of the things that we're planning on doing, the things we are doing regularly, this to me is the most exciting. - Okay. - And it's so simple, that's why I'm so thrilled by it. It was like the best idea that we didn't really even have to think about. We said from day one that we will invest in parties, which in Los Angeles was appealing, but very surprising. That's maybe the last thing a lot of people expected a pastor to say, certainly a church to say, we invest in parties, and we mean it. We mean it. - You throw a good party. - We throw spectacular parties. We have a few people within our community already that have a little bit of a yard, which in Los Angeles is very rare. - But they've got a little bit of space to host a lot of people, and we rent a valet service, and we get amazing food and beverages. We had a DJ and some live music at the last one, and we tell people this is not a bait and switch. There is no, we're not gonna invite you in, lock the doors, and I'm gonna preach on hell for 45 minutes. Like this is everybody, anybody is welcome. And you know what, we had to do it a couple of times before the Christians wanted to invite their friends because there have been a lot of, maybe in their experience, have been a lot of bait and switches, where it's like, yeah, we're gonna come in for this, you say it's a social environment, or it's an opportunity to get to know people, community, invite my friends, and then you give them the pitch, or you make them uncomfortable, you make me look stupid. I've been investing in this friendship forever. I'm not willing to risk it. - I brought him out and you sold me out. - Yeah, there you go. - That's a good way to say it. - So, okay, so let me get this straight. 'Cause, I mean, so this is something that happens. It's not like, hey, now that you're here on a Sunday, come to one of our mixers, this may be somebody's first interaction with anything from, yeah, we haven't even said the name of your church. I'm sure I will in the introduction, but we're VSLA, right? - To that point, can I share with you a story from the last? So the last one we had was just like I described it, great party. We told our people who were already attending our events at the time, like, yeah, bring your friends, I don't care what their understanding is of church, their background, their story, anything, everybody's welcome. Well, a few of them took a risk and did that, and I was at the mixer, and I got a chance to talk to this one amazing photographer. I just met in that night, but really sharp guy, really talented, identified as an atheist, agnostic, I found out, was invited by a friend, a Christian, who was attached to radius already. And he's at this party and we're talking about what he does. And it was before that moment where he asks what I do for a living, you know, an ethical moment, because once you say, however you describe being a pastor, once they figure that out, things change and sometimes-- - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, all of a sudden, their language changes, and you're not walking around with a name tag that says, hi, I'm Pastor Joseph. - I don't, I don't. - No, just the opposite. - Yeah, exactly. And so before it gets to that question, he breaks, sharing about himself, he leans in and he whispers and he says, hey man, did you know there's a lot of Christians here tonight? (laughing) - That's awesome. - That's awesome. - That's great. - And I said, yeah, I'm one of them. And he's like, I've never hung out with Christians before. - Wow. - And he says, and I quote, they're pretty great. - That's amazing. - I think they all go to the same church. I think I'm gonna check it out. - No way. - Yeah, I was beside myself. I mean, what would you think of? It's like, that's it. That's the whole thing right there. - Wow. - That's everything that we care about. And guess what, the next Sunday he was there. So our mixer events are not fellowship gatherings for people who are already initiated in our church culture. Our mixer events actually happened before a Sunday morning. That's where they're positioned in our critical path. - Yeah, well, okay, so let me ask a couple more questions then. Did you have to like deprogram your Christians not to do the hard sell? Or like, I'm just asking really practically 'cause I can imagine like when you throw a party, there are people you want at the party and then people it's like, oh yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. - Did you have to do anything? Like how do you vision cast around an event like that? - Well, the best way is showing not telling. So it really was, and we knew when we first got started, we're gonna have to invest in a couple of these before they're really gonna take on a life of their own. - That's fair. - We talked about it and said, this is the environment we're trying to create and you should feel safe to bring anybody that you work with or you live next door to, whatever. But it certainly took, there was two events that where I saw a lot of familiar faces and everybody's like, I was just making sure, I'm just making sure. And then our third one, man, we had 100 plus people in this backyard, half of which were not a part of the church. I would assume many of which are either dis-churched or un-churched, would not identify themselves as Christians. And so just that moment alone, even if whatever God's grace allows us to do or be a part of their lives after that, like that moment alone is so unique in this city where people truly have a diverse worldview gathering. And if we can help create it, I think, man, what an advantage the gospel gives us there, 'cause that's precisely what we should be doing, is creating more wells and maybe some few less temples. - So this is fascinating. So, I mean, is that it? You just throw a party that lasts like two or three hours or I don't know, maybe longer. (laughing) And like give us a map out of the evening, and then is there any ask at all or anything you put in anyone's hands or how do they even know it's a church event when it's over? Like, how does that work? 'Cause I think this is a really interesting strategy. - Yeah, we are trying to keep the critical path strategy as relational as possible. So what's incumbent upon us is to arm the people who have invited their friends to now take the next step, maybe on the drive home, to say, hey, by the way, a lot of these people, they get together on Sundays. This is a lot of what I'm passionate about what drives me. If you're interested in finding out more, maybe this has removed a few paradigm, some obstacles that you had and you'd be willing to check it out. So it's all about creating, empowering individuals to just continue to be great friends, investing in those relationships and feeling comfortable inviting them. - So they'll bring it up after, at some point, right? In a natural part of the relationship. - We have yet to ever stand up on a microphone and say, hey, by the way, there's something going on. Although we may do that, there's a mixer coming up right before Easter, it's put there strategically to maybe even create more curiosity for an Easter gathering for the uncharged. So we put that mixer there. There may be something a little bit more pronounced because culturally speaking, Easter still is a good excuse to talk about church. - Sure it is. - And so that may naturally come up, but on the whole? Nope, you wouldn't, other than the interpersonal, you would not know that this was an organized church event. - So you'll invest several thousand dollars even as a church plant in a really good party. - Oh, yeah, for sure. - Without blank. - Cool, cool. Last question, and we got a lot of other ground to cover in the short time left, but give us an idea of what makes for a really good party. - Oh, that's good. - In your view. - Well, for us, it's a really great party. We'll look like other really great parties in the city. And I do it. - If you're in Iowa or rural Ontario, it's probably gonna look a little bit different than Hollywood, right? - I think so. - Yeah, yeah. People here are used to going to parties hosted by strangers. At those parties, they are used to great music, spectacular music. - Music. - They are used to out in Los Angeles, and some of your listeners, this might not work in their context, but we do have alcoholic beverages at our parties. - Sure. - And so that's not, that actually becomes an opportunity. You've handled well, so we've done that at our mixers. Coffee is a huge deal in Los Angeles, so that's expected. We do the pour over thing. We get all the people to do all the laboratory work. And so it's interesting how just these small features of hospitality, and then a really inviting space. We did one up in what's called the hills above the valley. It was this great backyard that someone in our community has overlooking the lights of the city. It's a place you'd wanna go to. And so here, those little features, taking the food seriously, taking the environment seriously, but not no program. There's gotta be a little bit of like a scent. We found it successful when there's a little bit of a sense of, oh man, not everybody gets to be here. - Right, a little exclusivity like-- - Yeah, I get to be behind the rope a little bit. I'm here because I knew somebody, you know? There's a little bit of that. You gotta be obviously very careful. - So how do you invite people then? Is it like a list? You tap 20 people on the shoulder, invite three or four of your friends, or is it something you tell your whole church about? Like, hey, we're having a mixer? - Yeah, oh yeah, we tell them on Sundays, and we'll tell them through our social media networks and stuff, and arm them with the language, and obviously the daytime and stuff, yeah. - Okay, that's really cool. You know what, that's a really fresh approach on an ancient thing, and I think it's culturally sensitive. What other unique things about planning a church in a place like Hollywood? - Man, there's a whole host of things. I can tell you a few of the things that were initially pushbacks from the unchurched friends of mine. - Oh yeah, yeah. - And then those became really provocative ideas, how we could actually create maybe a new approach, a new environment. - Cool, let's go there. That's really interesting. - Yeah, a few years ago, I was hanging out with a neighbor friend of mine, and I'd been inviting him to a Sunday experience for a long, long time, and he'd always just said no, and had really good excuses for it. Finally, Easter was rolling around this particular year, and I said, well, if you ever get to come to church, it's gotta be on Easter, come on. Just do me a solid come to church with me. And he said, "Joseph, I got a level with you. "I'm never gonna say yes." And I'll tell you why, if you wanna hear it. I said, "Yeah, of course I wanna hear it." And he says, 'cause I already know what I'm gonna experience when I get there. And I said, "What is that?" and he said, "Mediocrity, any relevance." - Whoa. - And I can tell you, Carrie, at the time, I wasn't sure I could promise him anything different than that experience. Because that's not something we'd paid attention to. We had talented people around us, but we hadn't asserted excellence. Stewarded people's giftings in such a way that yeah, God could produce something really, really great here if we paid attention to how we're growing together and what we're good at. And so that became a perception that I found to be shared by many, many people that I talked to in our community. And so then that became, we stated the opposite of that as values now, as we get started in this new church, and instead of mediocrity, we will value excellence. - Yeah. - Instead of irrelevance, we don't value relevance, 'cause I don't think that's far enough. I actually think that church can be more progressive thinking, so we value innovation. That's a stated value of ours. So is it possible for the church to actually create new ideas? Ideas that don't exist that serve people, that reach people, that create different kind of conversations, so. - See, I think that's really significant, Joseph, because if you follow some of the discussion online or in church circles, I mean, I look at even the comments on my blog or other people's blogs, excellence is really under attack these days. And people think that to really reach a culture, you just need to chill out a little bit, stop worrying about being excellent. But that's fascinating that in a place like Hollywood, the church would still be perceived as mediocre and irrelevant. And I mean, you're not exactly a 60-year-old boomer pastor who's like, yeah, we're committed to excellence. I mean, you're definitely next-gen kind of leader, reaching a lot of young adults in a place like Hollywood who are like, yeah, better be good. And even as you sat at your mixer events, they're used to going to great parties, so why can't the church throw a great party? - That's absolutely true. And I would rather err on the side of simplicity and excellence than complexity and mediocrity. And, or even- - That's good. - I think one of the things that has not worked, if I could tell you, and this would be a whole other podcast, the list of things that Joseph has tried that have not worked. (laughing) - Give us one or two of those. That would be before we're done. Give us one or two of those, 'cause those are so good. - Yeah, one of them is I, you know, I'm a post-modern and I own, you know, I desire something that looks like organic and authentic and free-flowing. And, you know, I'm a doer and I'm an organized guy, but at the end of the day, man, I like my spirituality to feel a little, I can be kind of hippy. (laughing) - Right, right, right, right. Hands the beard. - And, you know, as things become programmed and, you know, I do have some tension. Oh, are we getting too slick? And is this manipulative? And are we, you know, putting the wrong things first? And however, in the past, as I have allowed whatever I'm influencing or creating with a group of people, as I've allowed it to be kind of unplanned and free-formed, maybe organic and whatever that means and chaotic, I mean, to be completely transparent, those have not worked. It's attracted church people. Because we can- - Really? - Yeah, it's- - So, so, so, sorry, just to get this clear, the organic and the, like, yeah, we're not really, all that stuff is basically attracted church people, not unchurch people. - 100%. - Oh, well- - Isn't that fascinating? - Yeah. - Wow. Okay, thanks for sharing that. Keep going. I just, I wanted to make sure I heard that right and that everybody heard that right. 'Cause again, if you read what people are saying about the church, everybody would say, well, that's where you should be going toward the organic, toward the, but you, wow. Okay, so keep going. - Yeah. I should be clear that we, I think we have a great opportunity to embrace the mystery. I think God has not explained everything about himself. - Oh, and that's different though. That's imminence and transcendence. - Exactly. - That's, that's different. That's not like, I'm not really organized versus being excellent. And I like what you said about simplicity and excellence versus mediocrity and complexity. I think those are the adjectives to use. But anyway, keep going, keep going, this is good. - Well, the approach changes then into how do we continually promote the idea that we don't have everything figured out? That's eminence, that's transcendence, that's mystery. Always, man, be humble and be open-minded and be a learner and be a listener. However, every time we, we, and I'll be careful here, but every time we trick ourselves into thinking, the program also has to be mysterious. We actually are only communicating one and or two things. One is we don't get it. We actually don't understand it 'cause we can't be clear. Or two, church spirituality God gets our leftovers. And so it's not worth it. I didn't wanna communicate either of those things any longer. - That's fascinating. - Does that mean that we have a, that it's a show? I mean, that's a word that gets thrown in here all the time. I mean, maybe in a way, but what you artfully have to constantly refine and listen to the people that you're serving. See, are we really on pitch here or not? Is that the difference between true, honest engagement and emotion and emotionalism, the difference between doing our very, very best because this is the, this is, I think the church is the most exciting place in the world to work. I think it can. - Agreed, agreed. - And there's a way to embody that, manifest that. It does not seem like we're building a facade. You know, this is a, this is another Wizard of Oz thing where you've got, the real stuff is behind this curtain, but we're gonna put on this show just so that you continue to be impressed and drawn to what we're doing. You know, one is based on vision and excitement in the future and the other one's based on fear. - Yes. - And I, you know, I've ended up talking about more than just being organic and chaotic, but that's our approach to if you will kind of the production or the presentation of what we do as a church. Whenever we, whenever I'm sharing, I'm preaching, I'm communicating what we do with music, what we do with the arts. It's based all on, man, think about what's possible. I think that God has miraculously gifted you to do one or two things. So what would it look like for you to do the very best at that? And what if we did those things together? And so that can end up being very, very simple, but man, high impact and thrilling to be a part of. And something you know very well that I'm starting to experience more and more is excellence attracts excellence. - Yes it does, that's a very good point, you know? If you really want excellent musicians, you better have a few excellent musicians. - Absolutely. - If you want excellent art, you need some, you know, you get excellent art, you get excellent artists and you throw great parties, you get people who are capable of throwing them and love to be at them. And you know the other thing that really intrigues me about your mixer events is a lot of people struggle in that area. Like there are people who could never throw a party like that, but they would be great if you threw a party for them and they could invite their friends. Like, you know, the gift of hospitality is not universal and not everybody throws great parties. - Yeah, that's well said, and we found it to be true for sure. - Wow, well this is cool. So I mean, you're helping us crack the code on Hollywood here, which I think works. So, you know, let's just kind of sum up. These mixer events, I think, are genius. In fact, I'm gonna go back to my team, that idea and give you full credit. I think that's a fantastic idea. And to do them even before people enter the door is a great idea, like it's a first impression. Second thing, you know, you're talking about that surprisingly, and this was a surprise for me, you know, excellence actually still works with deeply unchurched people in a place like Hollywood. - Yeah, yeah. - And that sometimes when we're not excellent, I forget exactly how you said it, but we come off as being amateurs. We come off as not caring. We come off as being confused or poorly organized, which really doesn't attract anybody. I mean, who wants to shop at a store that's really badly organized, poorly stocked? I mean, nobody wants that, you don't want that. And those are really helpful. Any other lessons, I can't believe where the time's gone, but any other lessons, it could be a two hour podcast. Yeah, you gotta have you back. - Yeah, well, man, I would love it. Let me say one more thing about that, the extra pieces we've found are such a strategic advantage, and then a couple of other thoughts that seem to be working in a culture that is completely indifferent to Christianity right now. One other thing on excellence is something your listeners probably already know is the evidence of excellence in the public, in the public things you do are the indicators that people are looking for to how you're handling things in the private or behind the scenes aspects of what you do. So in other words, the way you welcome me in the parking lot tells me how you're gonna be serving my child in the children's ministry. - What you can't see for the most part. - You can't see, you know? So really even the way, like if you're timely in, if you manage my expectations of how long we're going to be here and what things you're trying to accomplish, that tells me a little bit about how you're handling my finances if I was to take a step and sacrifice and pitch in here. So it's a part of building trust as well. - You're right, it's a trust issue, right? - It is, it's not about impressing people as much as it's about doing our very best to create as many on-ramps as possible. I wanna remove every obstacle that we possibly can to the grace of God. A couple of other things, and I think I'll be briefer or more brief. My grammatical Nazis would kill me if I said briefer. And I have many in my life, iron sharpening iron. A couple of things real quick that I wrote down here that we've been learning this last year, trying to impact a culture that's hostile or maybe at best indifferent to Christianity. One is constantly be a learner of culture. I think it's easy for us to continue to be learners of other churches, and that's good. There's a lot of best practices, but never stop being a learner of your culture. What's going on in your city? What are the felt needs? What are the language that they're using? Try as best you can to create bridges there. Another thing that is so great, the postmodern gift, I think, is that they are demanding we show them before we tell them. And so creating opportunities for the body of Christ to be themselves. How are we serving in our community publicly? What are we doing on social media that shows that we aren't just relevant, but we are innovating, that we are vibrant, that there is more to life. Three, which I already touched on, but I think it's worth looping back to, is always be refining and watching the art between emotion and emotionalism. There's two things I think our culture smells. One is they smell a trap. Secondly, they smell a rat. And so with emotionalism, they're going to smell that trap a mile away. You're trying to manipulate me. You're trying to coerce me into doing something I don't want to do. The second thing they can smell is a rat. I think it's a great opportunity for leaders of high moral integrity and character communities that are trying their best to model the same, to rebuild a trust that, for many reasons, I'm sure people do not want to extend to the church any longer. So watch out, because the postmodern world smells a trap and they smell a rat a mile away. And the last thing too, this goes with the mixer events. And if I could say there's one thing that's our real strategic advantage as a church is we have fun. And the last place a lot of people think they will have a good time is in a church. So we value fun. That's why we invest in parties. That's why we play games on Sunday. We laugh a lot. And man, what a great, I want to be a part of that. Let alone people who are just, curiosity, is finally compelling and to check this out, so. - This is super helpful. So if there's somebody who's trying to crack the cultural code wherever they are, and they're listening in and they're like, "Yep, there's a gap." Any recommended starting points, like if you're really, maybe it's an existing church and the leaders are saying, you know what? Yeah, it's just been the same 2,200, 2,000 people for the last few years. It's time to actually make an impact on our community. Or if there's somebody church planting like you going, wow, how do I crack the culture? How do I get into a place that seems as alien as Hollywood? Any good place to start? What would your first or second step be? - If it was an existing ministry that's thinking, let's try some new things. First of all, I applaud the courage of even attempting that. Or I think that's its own challenge and requires its own genius. And so if you're doing that, we're all rooting for each other. We're all doing our best, don't feel, don't give up 'cause it's worth trying. - Yeah, sure. - There may be a couple of opportunities within context to create spaces for experimentation that won't feel as distracting to your larger community. It won't feel like that you're leaving them behind to pursue something else. And so that's a huge recommendation of mine is creating maybe a different service to experiment with something or a mixer event that might feel like practically and culturally low cost, but it's a space where we can try and fail and try and fail to get at some of these new ideas. And then who knows, after some time, hey, listen, this is really working. What if we weave some of this more into our overall strategy? - So let it fail or succeed on the side. And then when you've discovered a formula that seems to be working, then integrate that into the mainstream of church life. - Yeah, which is harder to do, of course, as communities grow and they get some water under the bridge. It's harder to experiment. So maybe creating some of those spaces where you can do that and take some of those risks. That's the thing with the existing church. With somebody starting a church, I'll tell you one of the most exciting things that I'm experiencing in this season is getting to say yes again for the first time. And as I've matured, I've learned to steward that yes quite a bit more carefully than I had before. So I very rarely say yes to new things until we really feel like, man, those benefits are so exciting to us and are so mission critical to us that yes, let's go ahead and try that. And that goes with a much larger conversation of how we're actually discerning how God's providing and leading us. But man, I'll tell you, my temptation as a church starter, I know that a lot of your listeners who are thinking about starting a church, they're doing that because they have a passion. They want to see God made famous in their city and their doers. And the dark side of that, 'cause I'm a doer, is that you will do everything. And when you're starting a church, you will want to get people busy, you want to do a lot of stuff. We've kept it so simple. And even though we've gotten, we've been grateful for a lot of people starting to glob on. Of course, there's this, almost an anxiety, felt like, okay, what are we gonna start doing a lot of stuff? 'Cause there's a lot of us here and I've stuck to my guns. - Keep it simple. - We're gonna keep it simple. Keep it simple. And so, that's my work in church planters. - I agree. I mean, we're seven years into this and we are still surprisingly simple as a church. And I think it works really, really well in the end. - So good. - Joseph, tell us, where can we find you online? How do people get ahold of you? Read more, learn more, tell us about that. - The easiest gateway is josephbarkly.com. I have a blog there that then, of course, leads into all the different works and into radius where the church that we've just started. But yeah, I frequently update that. - Cool. - That's where you can find out more about me. - Well, and all the links will be in the show notes too. Joseph, thank you so much. This was great. - Jerry, thanks. It's been a pleasure. What an honor, thank you. - Doesn't joseph just kind of strike you like the kind of guy you wanna hang out with, which is like totally the kind of guy he is. He just so laid back and yet such a great leader. And I love his approach to planting a church in an area that's so, so hard to reach. And man, Hollywood's gotta be near the top of the list. It's just gotta be. So way to go, Joseph. We're cheering for you. If you want more, you can find out more at carrynewhough.com/episode31. And next Tuesday, we'll be back with episode 32. And we're doing a little bit of a mix up in the schedule. Some of you who may be a regular listener isn't pay attention to the very end. Might have noticed that last time I said it was gonna be Daniel Decker in episode 31. And Daniel is coming up in a future episode. I just had to redo the schedule on that one. So we got like Daniel coming up. We've got Mark Batterson coming up. We've got like a number of really cool episodes coming up. And so Caleb Colton back is gonna be on Wayne Cordova, Tom Rayner, Chris Rivers, all coming up in future episodes. So all you have to do is hit subscribe and it will magically appear in your playlist automatically every Tuesday morning. So there's a new episode released every Tuesday. And you can do that by subscribing for free on iTunes, on Stitcher, or on TuneIn Radio. And thanks again to everybody who leaves rating in reviews. We are now between the Canadian and American iTunes store, pushing 200 reviews. And that is so awesome. And I read every one of them. So just thank you for that. And we'll be back next week. So thanks so much. Once again, show notes at carrynewhough.com/episode31. And hope this did help you lead like never before. You've been listening to the Carry Newhough Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead like never before. [MUSIC PLAYING] (gentle music)