The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 25 – The Changes You Need to Make As Your Church Grows—An Interview With Jenni Catron
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 25 of the podcast. Woohoo, we kinda made it. Like 25, that's quarter century or something, isn't it? I feel like there should be some cool music under this or something. (upbeat music) Anyway, my name's Carrie Newhoff. Thanks for being along for the ride. Whether you've just joined us or whether you've been there from the very, very beginning back to Andy Stanley, episode one. Remember those days? How many of you remember that? It's been an incredible ride. And what a thrill to be able to bring you all kinds of leaders, people that I really appreciate, people I really admire. And today, you're gonna meet Jenny Catrin. And if you don't know Jenny, man, you are really gonna enjoy getting to meet her. She is currently serving out at Menlo Park Presbyterian Church with John Ortberg as an executive pastor. And prior to that was at Crosspoint Church in Nashville with Pete Wilson and was there from the days. And she's gonna tell you the story. I mean, wasn't very glamorous. They were in a cafeteria. They were trying to do portable church. And now it's like 5,000 people on multiple campuses and the whole deal. She was there for the whole ride. And Jenny is one of those people who serves behind the scenes. May not know her name, but she has been indispensable to the story of those churches. And there are thousands of church leaders out there like Jenny who just make a really, really critical difference. And what I love about what we're gonna talk about today is Jenny helps us navigate, 'cause she's smart. I mean, she's a really strategic thinker and she helps us navigate the changes that you need to make in order to accommodate the growth that you're experiencing. See, I think a lot of the time churches kind of go through a bit of a growth curve. And then they're like, we don't know what to do. We don't know how to organize. We don't know how to rethink things. We don't know how to handle people or systems at this stage. And Jenny talks very honestly and very candidly about the journey at Crosspoint and a little bit at Menlo Park about some of the strategic changes that they had to make to be able to accommodate the size of ministry that God was giving them. And if you're like me, you know that in leadership that's been one of the biggest challenges it is for me too. I mean, I started when our church was like six people in a Presbyterian church. You don't have to be that organized. I have a church of six people. But now we see over a thousand people many weekends. We have over 2,000 people who call our church home. We have two locations. We're moving into a building. I mean, it's just complicated and it's really, really different. And if you don't learn how to make those changes and how to handle the things that you need to learn to handle in order to accommodate that kind of growth, sometimes the growth doesn't stick and it's not that people are willing. It's just that you didn't know how to scale that as a leader. And so that's one of the things I really appreciate about Jenny. Jenny's also going to be one of the speakers at this year's Orange Conference. She's going to be on the senior leader track with me and a number of other great leaders like Jeff Henderson and Josh Gagnon who you've also heard on the podcast. And at the Orange Conference, it's going to be an incredible gathering of some great leaders. Perry Noble's going to be there. Judd Wellhite's going to be there. Reggie Joyner, John Acuff, Doug Fields and others. And if you've never been, I think this is your year to go. And the way to go is to head on over to the orangeconference.com/seniorleader. You can get right on the track that I'm running. I'd love to connect with you. It's a smaller track. There's maybe like, I don't know, anywhere between 150 and 300 people in on those sessions. Meanwhile, when we go to the big room, there's like 6,000. So I'm really excited to be speaking there, really excited to be hanging out with you and just go to the orangeconference.com/seniorleader. To register. So, I'm really excited you're going to meet Jenny. And whether your church is really small or whether it's really large and you're trying to navigate those growth challenges, I think Jenny is going to bring you a lot of insight. And so if you want more information, just go to the show notes at kerrynuhoff.com/episode25. And now, here's my interview with Jenny Catrin. Well, welcome Jenny. I'm so glad that you're able to join us on the podcast. Carrie, I'm thrilled to have the conversation with you today. It's always fun to talk leadership with you. So this is great. Yeah, it's always great fun. So give our listeners a little background on you. You're published author, tell us about your book, and also you've had an interesting journey in the music industry and then a couple of pretty cool churches as well. Yeah, yeah, God has just, you know, blessed me with some fun stories and journey so far. I started my career as a bright-eyed 20-year-old in the music business in Nashville, Tennessee. And I worked nine years for a record company there, worked with Christian artists, had a blast, did branding and marketing. And just, you know, thought I would run a record company someday. That was kind of my career goal since I was 13 years old. I was like, I'm gonna be a record company executive and do all that. It's crazy at 13 to say, I'm gonna own a record company. I'm gonna be a record company executive. Do you sing or like, do you play? Well, you know, I was one of those kids that, so I grew up in Northern Wisconsin, small town, small church, so yes, I could carry a tune. And so I got put on stage for special music, you know. Right, right. But, you know, it was more of a hobby and, you know, and I, you know, it was just something I enjoyed. It was a great outlet and I always loved music, but I think there was something about me as a kid that just knew, you know what? I actually am wired more as a strategist. I'm more of a business thinker. I'm more, you know, and so something about even at 13, like when I realized that there were these companies that did all of the marketing and strategy behind artists that I thought, ah, that's the place for me. So I don't even know how all of that really came together. I just go, okay, God's kind of amazing in how he just stirs in your heart, you know, your giftedness and, you know, that's just the career trajectory I took off on. That's fascinating. I don't know too many 13-year girls who wanted to be executive, you know, they want to be on, you know, the famous person. And the same with guys too, right? Guys don't really think I'm going to be an executive one day, but that is so cool. So you did that. You got to actually plan that space for about nine years and then what happened? - Yeah, so about while I was working in the music business, my husband and I were helping a church plant in Nashville, which was a cross-point church, Pete Wilson, lead pastor there. And we were volunteer leaders, you know, just doing our thing, singing on the worship team, you know? And, but we were super involved and loved it. And a couple of years in, the church was growing pretty rapidly. And Pete and I, he kind of, you know, triggered some conversations to say, hey, Jenny, what about coming and joining the team and helping me, you know, lead and manage this really fast-growing small church plant? And so that turned into a number of conversations, a lot of just wrestling even personally with this big dream that I had, you know, since I was 13 and going, okay, God, are you asking me to change gears radically? I never dreamed of being in ministry. And ultimately that was what I sense God was leading me to. And it made no sense career-wise. I literally had a friend who eventually I hired at cross-point. So this is hilarious. But he was a colleague in the music business who said, Jenny, you're committing career suicide. What are you doing, you know? And then I went on to hire him at cross-point. So it was awesome. - So he did the same thing. You both jumped off the cliff. - Yeah, exactly. - Oh, great. And you played the role of, I guess, executive pastor, executive director for your time at cross-point. - Yeah, I was there nine years. And I seem to do things in nines. I don't know why. But I was there nine years on staff and actually never dreamed of leaving. Like cross-point was just, it is, just such a vibrant, fun ministry that's just doing wonderful things in Nashville. And, you know, when I was there, we went from about 500 attendees to over like 6,000 last year when I left and five staff to over 50 and one campus to five. And, you know, just crazy, you know, crazy numbers, crazy, crazy journey. And it was just a blast. You know, it was just so much fun and so exciting to see what God was doing through us. - Right. And then you made a change about a year ago. So tell us about that. - Yeah. So there was another, you know, kind of left turn that curve ball that God threw at me and John Orberg at Menlo Park Pres out in Menlo Park, California, which is the San Francisco Bay area. It reached out and said, "Hey, we're rebuilding the executive team here. I need somebody with multi-site experience." And, you know, John's a big champion of women and leadership. And so there's just a lot of synergy with that. And so another season of lots of conversations, lots of prayer, just going, "God, what are, you know, taken me from the South to the West Coast?" And, but again, another one of those seasons in life where I sensed God was just saying, "Hey, the season is changing. It's time to take a leap of faith." And, you know, just trust that, just trust his leading in that. So we did, my husband and I, you know, picked up, moved across the coast and we've been here almost a year. - Ah, that's great. So, and you're working now in a denominational context a lot. Well, a post-denominational context actually specifically, but that's interesting and you wrote a book too. You're a recent author. - Yeah, last year we released my book, Clout, Discover and Unleash Your God, Give It Influence. And that's been a blast. You know, I just love processing what God is, teaching and growing through me and, you know, make, just help, if that becomes useful to somebody else, then, you know, there's just even more blessing in that. So, Clout. - That's a great book. If you haven't read it, you should read it. And is it Patrick Lencioni? Here, I'm, yeah, give you the introduction and, like, high praise from Patrick Lencioni. - Yeah, and Patrick's, like, one of my leadership organizational guru, like, heroes. And so, when he wrote The Forward to It, it was a real honor. - Oh, no kidding. So, let's dig in here and let's go back and talk about some of your time at Crosspoint. And, I mean, sometimes you look at this, okay. So, you, you know, you grow over a decade and you go from a small church to five campuses and 5,000 people in the whole deal. And a lot of people in similar, smaller contexts are kind of like, well, that's probably just easy. You know, it didn't quite happen to me. Yeah, you're laughing now, but, you know, it's easy. Or maybe that was just inevitable, you know, when you're as good-looking as Pete Wilson, you're just gonna grow, you know, or it's unreachable. Like, that'll never happen to me. So, it's inevitable, it's easier, it's unreachable. But the beginnings are always more humble than that. The struggle and the challenge is probably deeper than that. Can you walk us through what that decade of growth was like? Highs and lows? Yeah, yeah. And that's so true, Carrie, 'cause I think, you know, I remember when, you know, I first started at Crosspoint and we would go to some of the conferences and, you know, where we'd go visit some of these larger churches and you just think, oh my goodness, you know, is it even good for me to dream like that? 'Cause there's a little bit of, you know, what God calls us to different circumstances and, you know, different size congregations and churches. And so it's like, what's the motive in my longing for growth, you know, and then just realistically going, how would we even do it if we could, you know? Right, right. And I think that was pretty key to the Crosspoint culture is that, you know, just the vision of reaching Nashville and, you know, for Pete, Nashville was home for him. He was born and raised there. So he just had a deep burden for that community, for reaching people for Jesus. And I would say that, you know, Pete's a fantastic visionary leader. And so he did such a good job of, it wasn't about this audacious growth goal. It was so much about reaching people, being true to our vision, staying faithful to that. And we celebrated, of course, every milestone of growth, every time we had to, you know, but it was in the trenches. It was the, you know, when I started there, we were in a school cafeteria, which was like cafeteria meets auditorium in an elementary school. Designed for nothing. Right. Exactly, it's like trying to be all things and being nothing well, you know? And I can remember, Carrie, literally, we'd get there at like 4.45 a.m. in the morning through all the setup. And I became notorious for being the girl with the can of Lysol going up and down the halls of this stinky elementary school going, why would anybody come to church here, you know? So it was very glamorous, really, at the beginning. Absolutely. It wasn't it? And you had a pretty high title. Now, just so we know, how big was the church when you joined it? I mean, clearly it's not a mega church in a stinky cafeteria in an elementary school, but you've seen come a hundred people or something or what was it? Yeah, when we launched, and I was a volunteer when we launched, but we launched, I think with 200 people the first week again, you know, which is quite, I mean, that's strong for a church plant. And then we grew to about 500 within the first three years. So that's pretty great growth. But, you know, that was four services packed into this little cafeteria. And I think that's the thing that I would say, you know, every stage of cross points growth, it we always had to face the uncomfortable, you know? Like we always had to be willing to go, yep, it makes no sense why people come to a stinky cafeteria. But we're going to make that the best we can make it. And, you know, if it means us getting there at 4.45 AM, and we added, we went to four services. So we would start at 4.45 in the morning and we wouldn't finish until 8 p.m. at night, you know? And, but it was just that, and I'm not saying everybody should do that. And we obviously need health and balance and, you know, watch for burnout. But it was a season where we needed to commit and we needed to lean in because God was, you know, we were seeing the stories of life change where seeing people come to Jesus and we had to figure out how do we keep removing obstacles and reaching people. And I would say that same pattern emerged at every critical juncture in cross points history. - And you said something else, I don't want to miss either. You said that, you know, as much as Pete grew up there, he had a burden for the city. And so the goal wasn't growth. The goal was reaching people. And I think, you know, the way you put that in context, sometimes we go to conferences and it's like, no, I just want to pass through a big church. Well, that's not a good goal. And maybe you don't want to pass through a big church, you know? - There's plenty of other problems that come from that. - But, you know, sometimes there's that kind of idolization of size or it makes you feel good or it compensates for something. But I think in that story, what I love is, no, we just wanted to reach people and growth happens to be the byproduct. But then growth is also something you have to manage because if you don't lead well, and if you don't manage well, in the context of the growth that God is giving you, like, you know, I think I've heard you say before, you steward that, right? You have to steward that growth. - Yep, yep, yeah. And I think, you know, somehow keeping that tension in front of you, you know, when you're in those seasons of growth and momentum or not. So, you know, it's just, are we staying committed to the vision that God's put in our hearts? And then how do I steward the people that God has given us right now? And I think that's just a burden for me, just even as an individual. But then as a church leader is, you know, oftentimes I can have a tendency to just see what's out here, you know, that growth goal that I long for or that person that I wish to influence. And I miss that influence right here in stewarding what God's given me now. And whether that's 100 or 10,000, am I being faithful to that? And I think that is just really critical for us at any stage of ministry. - A lot of leaders get lost, dreaming about tomorrow. I mean, I think I'm a strength finder's future. Is that even one? I don't know. - Yeah, yep. - That's like my number one. I just think about the future. And it's like, I just happen to live in today, but I'm thinking about tomorrow, right? - Yeah. - So you mentioned something else that was interesting. I mean, you have different seasons, right? So did you have seasons that were just struggle for you? - Absolutely, absolutely. We went, I think it was 2010, I guess 2009 was a tough year economically, pretty much everywhere. But then right on the heels of that, Nashville had the flood of 2010, which was just, and it really impacted the part of the city that we had our strongest influence in. And it was pretty, I mean, it was an amazing season for us to reach out, serve the city. We had three staff who lost their homes in that. So it was very real, very personal. And then we had dozens of congregants who lost their homes. And then, I think it was over 10,000 people in the city that their homes were just destroyed. And so it was a beautiful season of ministry, but it was also probably our most difficult financially. And just, and again, everybody was dealing with tough economic issues in that era anyway. And, so we were dealing with ministry growth and yet financial resource limits, you know? And it was a tough, tough season. I can remember there were conversations kind of behind the scenes where I was doing my best to manage our resources and saying a lot of no's to staff and not being able to kind of give all the whys behind it. Not that we weren't hiding anything, but it was just almost protecting the staff a little bit from some of our reality, you know? And just trying to manage it in such a way that we, and you know, we made it through that season without having to let anybody go or downsize our staffing. And, but it was really, it was one of those seasons as a leader where you're in that leadership seat kind of fighting through some tough things that not everybody else is privy to. And it definitely refined us in a lot. - I think that comes as a surprise to people too, you know? That a church that has them, you know, several million dollars in the budget, still, it's not all gravy. I mean, you really have to make tough decisions. And whether you're trying to steward $100,000 a million or 10 million, you're just adding zeros. And at the end of the day, there's always more vision than money, right? - Totally, yup, yup, totally. And so it's, yeah, it's just that tension to manage of stewarding those resources well and managing growth at the same time. And, yeah. - Any other challenges that you sort of encountered in that decade of leadership? Like just personnel challenges, momentum challenges, 'cause it's not all, you know? Hey, we're just growing every single day. - Yeah, I think probably all of the above, you know, to some degree, but yeah, there were definitely seasons where, you know, we experienced some of the growth and then we discovered our systems were a rack. Like we couldn't internally like function, manage, get stuff done. You know, it was like you had to reinvent. Okay, how do we do life now? I'm sure it's like, you know, a family when you go from one child to two or two to three. And, you know, all of a sudden it's like, the old systems don't work anymore. Like we can't manage this the same way. And there was a lot of that. You know, you'd hit some of those growth seasons and those growth marks. And particularly when we went multi-site, you know, all of a sudden our staff has to work differently together in how we interact, how we behave, how we communicate, you know, all of that stuff. So I think those growth seasons really triggered, you know, other problems, you know, other problems emerge in that. - Can you tell us a little bit more about systems? Because systems are always a challenge and they do have to reinvent themselves. Like there's a difference between 200 and 500, between 500 and 1,000, between 1,000 and 2,000 or even 2,000 on three locations. And you had to manage all of that from an executive seat. So what are some of the incumbent challenges with that kind of growth? - Yeah, I think, you know, you know, one of the hardest things I think is that, you know, in ministry, we want to be a family. We tend to want to be, I'm not that we shouldn't be, but we want to operate like a small family. And we're sometimes resistant to processes or systems or things that start to feel too, you know, the word a lot will be corporate. You know, a lot of times staff will refer to, "Oh, are we getting corporate? Are we getting?" And I had a coach one time tell me, you know, you've got to figure out how to just be corporate enough or systematic enough. Or it was almost like every season of growth I would have to look for where's the tension point? And I have to introduce a system or a new process at that point where the staff were feeling the tension. Like if I tried it, 'cause I'm a systematic thinker, so I'll want to organize everything way ahead of anybody feeling the need. But what I learned as a leader was that, and I'm, you know, obviously still do this, you know, in context now, but is that every time, I often will see a need for a system before the team feel the need for that system. And so there's a real dance to figuring out, when do I introduce this? And it feels like a solution rather than an oppressive like process or something bureaucratic. So there's almost this discernment thing as a leader of introducing systems that help solve problems. And the staff go, "Oh, yep, it's time for that. Yup, we need that now to help us operate more efficiently." So I've done things like, and I just actually did this at Menlo too, where we, you know, we discovered, you know what? I don't know that everything or how we're working is most effective anymore. So we declared a no meeting December for the month of December. And we just scratched every like regularly scheduled meeting that we normally have. We just said, "Cancel them all." And for a month, I want you to figure out a different way to get your job done, rather than waiting on a meeting structure. But you know what it did is it kind of rattled the system, so to speak. And then we came back in January and said, "Okay, what did we miss? What did we need? "What new conversations do you need "to help you get your work done?" You know, and it just created a new conversation and we're building a new rhythm now. So I think, you know, I think sometimes as teams, you'll feel the tensions of what we're doing isn't quite working anymore. But sometimes you just have to shock the system and do something kind of radical to go, "Okay, clear the deck and let's start fresh and go, "What do we really need to help us accomplish ministry?" And I found that effective. - That's really good. And I like what you're saying there, because part of it is you've got to check yourself because you're going to run ahead and you're going to introduce unnecessary tension into the system. And then another part of it, Jennie, is sometimes leaders just run behind. Like the system change needed to happen a year ago, two years ago, and that's why we're stuck. Did you ever run into that where your system was behind the curve? Maybe not with your personality, but no, no, I mean that in the best way, like we all bring something to the table. - Yeah, no, I think that I definitely, I think there have been points of my leadership where I can do this tension of, because I tend to see the solution or see a potential solution, I will want to run ahead. And if I get too far ahead, nobody's with me, you know? And, but then sometimes you can just get a little defeated and just kind of go, you know, throw up your hands. And I think I certainly had seasons where I was like, all right, you guys don't want to come with me, then do it your way. I mean, never said that. - You suffer such places, right? - Yeah, yeah, I never said that, but yeah, if I'm honest, I certainly had that spirit sometimes, you know? And so, yep, I often, you know, there have been points where I think I let something go a little too long before I helped lead us through that. I often will think of my role as like somebody with this big machete, trying to clear a field for the staff to come through. You know, it's like, I'm not that far ahead of them. I just got to be ahead of them enough to kind of clear the debris, you know, like just kind of clear the path so that we can help the staff run a little more freely. - But I think that's what's so surprising to a lot of leaders too, is that systems actually matter. - They really, really do, and people are systems. And people think that's not biblical, but no, that's Exodus 18. And yes, that's Acts chapter six. And yes, that's Jesus going, okay, groups of 72 and 12 and three and one. And I mean, but we miss it because we over-spiritualize things in the church sometimes. - We do, we do. And we, you know, I think one of the most meaningful things that Pete told me, and you just referenced it from Exodus, but, you know, it was the place where Jethra tells Moses what you're doing is not good. - Yeah. - And there was a season in cross points story where I had, I think, a dozen direct reports. - Oh, why? - Yeah. - I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. - Every leader who understands that goes Jenny, that's a disaster. - It was one of those seasons where we were growing so rapidly that we were just filling roles, you know, just adding staff and filling roles and covering bases, and all of a sudden I've got 12 direct reports and we're going this, this isn't good, you know? But Pete had to come to me and say, you know, he kind of used that Jethra, Moses example and said, you know, what Jethra tells to Moses is, dude, you've got to give leadership to leaders and you got to let them manage. And then you take care of the stuff that only you can do. And it's, you know, it's stuff that we kind of know and as leaders we've heard, but you need people around you who circle you back to that and go, hey, it's time to, it's time to realign that. It's time to restructure that and. - Yeah, and I love Jethra's advice too. He said, Moses, you're going to wear yourself out and wear the people out too. And I've done both. I've worn myself out and worn people out in the process. You're really not helping anybody. - Exactly, yep. And, you know, there's a little bit of, I think, I know, at least for me, there's a little bit of that pride in you as a leader that's like, I got this, you know? - Yeah. - I got this everybody, I can do it. And, you know, I think sometimes we've got to get a little bit to the end of our rope, a little stretch too thin to realize, no, I got to do this a little differently. And I think, you know, kind of to your point about those tension moments in leadership, I think, and probably the most painful thing to realize is that when I'm there, all of my staff have been feeling it for a while. - Right. - I'm just finally willing to acknowledge it and go, yep, I'm not superwoman. You know, I can't actually do all of this, you know? - That's very, very true. So let's talk a little bit about, and this is, I didn't know when I was sort of putting these questions together, whether this one would be productive or not, but we're gonna try anyway. So the who and the what of leadership? Like, when you look back on, you know, 17, 18 years in leadership, both in the record industry and then also in a couple of churches, how much of leading change and how much of growing is about the who, the character, the team, getting the right people on the bus, Jim Collins type stuff. - Yep, yep. - And how much is about the what? Systems, key steps, because I think we tend to swing toward it's all who or it's all what. So I don't really know if that's a question, but can you talk about that for a moment? - Yeah, yeah, I actually love that. I mean, I think it's a huge tension of leadership in that, and I think that's what leadership is about, right? It's about these tensions that we have to manage as leaders and working through those. And so I think it is. I think there's both the who and the what that you're constantly wrestling with. And I think the way that I look at this a lot for ministry in particular is kind of like an engine, you know, of a car or whatever and the oil to the engine. And that, the engine is like the who. You know, the engine is the ministry, the people, the, you know, and the engine's significant, right? 'Cause for the ministry to go forward, you need the people, you know, the people you're reaching, the people on your staff, the who. But the oil is like the what, you know? It's the engine can't run without the oil. You know, and the oil has to be healthy. The oil has to be attended to. So the systems, the processes, all of that stuff needs to be healthy and functioning. So the oil or the engine can run. - That's a great metaphor. - But the oil is irrelevant if the engine's not running. So it's just, I think it's that who and what tension of, you know, we have to attend to who. We have to be paying attention to the people on our teams and how we're managing them, how we're developing them, right people in the right seats, critically important, you know, so that engine and before long, my lack of knowledge about engines breaks down. And so the whole metaphor falls apart. - That's why I'm quiet right now. I can't add anything to this conversation. So just keep going. - I'll just keep going. I'll just make it up and somebody who knows stuff about cars is gonna be like, whatever. But, you know, so I think that's the tension that I live with because part of my role and has been, you know, true in the seats that I've sat in is that I do manage both of those things. - Right. - And so I'm always juggling the, yep, we need to keep a focus on the ministry, the vision, the people, but if I'm not watching the systems, the processes, the operational issues, then the engine's gonna stall if those things aren't serving it well. And so they've got to work in tandem. And I think that's part of our job as leaders. When we sit in a seat where we do have a span of control over both, that, you know, we've got to be managing those things really well. And really every leader within the organization, every leader in ministry has this to some degree, whether you're in children's and you've got your managing volunteers and your managing the systems and the administration behind the scenes or whether you're, you know, even over in IT, I was talking to our database person the other day. And, you know, she's dealing with data all the time. So it feels very what, feels very systematic. But every interaction she has with a congregant gives her an opportunity to speak life and to remember the significance of ministry and that just the little interactions there are really critical. So they go hand in hand and I think we have to, we have to live with that. - Well, actually, it's a good metaphor too, because I think it helps people realize, no, I've got the who right now, we just don't have the what, like the engine isn't operating. Or we've got the what, we just don't have the who, we've got to go out and find the who. That's a really good metaphor, super helpful. So in all the change that you've navigated in the church, and I mean, cross point, a lot of the time, 'cause I write on changes as you know. And a lot of the time I hear, well, you know, established churches have pushed back to change, but church plants don't. No, I think 18 months into a church plant, you're dealing with resistance to change because you have to change. So you had a lot of change across point, multiple campuses, different venues. You went through a building campaign recently before you left. Now you're in a more traditional context and a pretty progressive area and a Presbyterian church. But have you gotten pushed back to change? Have you gotten opposition to change? And then how have you learned to navigate that as a leader? - Yeah, yeah, and I think you're right, Carrie. And I think it doesn't matter the size or the dynamics, you know, there's always resistance to change. And that's a big piece. I think, you know, I think some of it for me was being comfortable with, and I think this is a lesson God has just continued to teach me, is being comfortable with seasons. And, you know, to everything there's a season. And so I think even in organizations, there are seasons and the change comes with new seasons. And so, yeah, it's like the natural rhythms of life. And I think when we realize that even in our churches and our ministries, there will be natural seasons. And we need to be paying attention to those. So even, you know, as we're leading, you know, whether it's congregants or staff through change, that we'd be aware of sometimes they have to grow with us and change with us into that new season. And then sometimes their season will come to a close. And us knowing that that's okay, you know, and again, you've got to be really discerning, really mindful of, are we just forcing and ramrodding change in so that people are disgruntled and unhappy and maybe rightfully so? You know, are we leading through things well? But I think there's also this fear that if not everybody's happy, then maybe we shouldn't change. - That's a recipe for paralysis. You won't do anything. - Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, I think, you know, I'm kind of vaguely answering your question a little bit, but I think it's just that recognition of the change that's, you know, being comfortable with seasons of change and just knowing that sometimes that means, you know, people move on or move in or, you know, even with my transition out across point, I didn't want to leave, you know, I loved that place. But when I really, when God just started working and stirring in my heart that it was time for change, I really realized my season had come to a close. I had done my part. A great team was in place to continue it on. And it was an end of a really great season. And, you know, they're going on to having other great seasons and I'm having great seasons in my new context. And there's just a rhythm to that that I think helps us recognize that the process of change as well. - So did you have more pushback when you made like personnel changes or when you made structural changes? And then I got one more question about change for you, so. - Yeah, yeah, I think, I think a little bit of both, you know? I mean, I think, you know, even physically, like we moved, we relocated the whole broadcast campus at cross point. And, you know, that was significant change. So, you know, I think this is one of the things Pete Wilson is just so brilliant at is that he really reads people well and anticipates what change will feel like to them. So, in those kind of moments, he's just a brilliant leader at knowing how to pace people through that, you know? How to communicate well. And I think that's critical. I think when you're leading an organization through change, 'cause, you know, I talked about seasons at the same time, you don't want to just bulldoze through change and just expect everybody to come with you, you know? It's like, I think there's discernment in going, how do we help lead people through whether, you know, in that case, a building move, which meant, you know, they had to drive some of them further to church than they did before and, you know, practical stuff. But then also then, you know, and like personnel changes and things like that, I think just being sensitive and aware of how it impacts people, what it feels like in their shoes and helping kind of fill in the gaps appropriately of the why behind it, you know? And I think that's always a big thing is, you know, sometimes we can be quick to define the what and the how, but I think helping people realize why. And so we're, you know, we're building this new building and relocating because there's, you know, this group of people that we feel like God is calling us to reach, or we're launching this campus because of this. And I think just being able to go back to the vision and the why is so critical in those changes. - Yeah, and the other thing I love what you said is just the whole empathy piece, right? Like understanding, even I've been in the building you went to before you built your new broadcast campus. - I mean, not to be rude, but it wasn't the most amazing or attractive building in human history, right? Like, and I'm sure as a staff you're kind of going, "Right, how? Thank goodness we're moving." But then you realize, no, people came to faith in that place and people got married in that place and relationships were built in that place. And so people are gonna feel like, okay, it may not be the most beautiful place and the place we're going to is new and clean and amazing and all that stuff, but this is home. And that's just difficult. And to engage that, I think a lot of people get paralyzed and say, "Well, therefore we can't move." Or you just say, "You know what?" Or you just move and then there's bodies everywhere. Or you say, "Hey, you know what? "I can understand this is gonna be a tough move "for some of you and it's gonna be hard "and there's some great memories here. "We need to stop and give thanks to God." And then let's all go together and let's move ahead into a new era. We're facing that this year as we move from, I mean, portable church, it's not quite running around with Lysol. We've got some great space, but like, we think it's gonna be better in the new building, but there are people who like, we never went to church until we came here. And even our portable setup and tear down team, they love it. And they're like, "Are you making us unemployed?" - Exactly. - No, no, we'd love to have you serve. Some of them are gonna go to our other portable campus, some are gonna help us with new things. But like, it's just helping people navigate that and realizing we can get there together, but we just gotta figure out how to do that. - Yeah, and I think, you know, Kerry, for many of us in the leadership seat, you know, so you said futurist is one of your strengths finder, achiever is one of mine, activator was one of Pete's like, you know, so as leaders, we usually have a wiring that goes, why wouldn't we go, why wouldn't we change? Like, we're always, you know, we're kind of wired to think ahead. And so I think I have to always catch that part in me that's like, it feels so obvious, you know, sometimes because of my wiring as a leader and I have to remember that's not how everybody else thinks or processes or that's not their experience. And, you know, being some empathetic to that is really, really critical. - And what's obvious to you is not necessarily obvious to other people, you just have to remember that. - Yeah. - It's good. - Okay, so what advice would you have for churches who are looking to grow? They're, you know, a church plant 50, they dream of the day of 75 or 500. - Totally. - That would be a thousand. Or a church trying to navigate, you know, multi-site. We're gonna launch our first or second campus in our first multi-site location or, you know, in all of that. What's some good tips that you picked up along the way for churches looking to grow? - Yeah, I think it's a lot of what we talked about earlier too is just that stay faithful to the vision, you know, and just what was that thing that got you, that, you know, if you're a church planner, that just that compulsion to start that church what was it? - Yes. - Because sometimes we lose that just that initial core, like passion that got it birthed in us, we get distracted by, you know, the machine of church sometimes. And so I think just staying really connected and faithful to that vision is really critical. I think like we talked about don't just focus on growth, you know, focus on the stories of life change, you know, again, that's all feeding back to vision. But, you know, when you can focus on and keep your eye on those stories of people's lives being impacted by the gospel because of how they were connected, you know, in some way to your ministry. I think those things are so critical 'cause growth becomes a byproduct, you know? And then so I think it's just being, you know, there's, you have to be willing to, you know, at the same time we can just become comfortably complacent too and that, well, you know, if it's God's will, yeah. You know, but it does take the, you know, the Lysol spring of the, you know, and it does take the 430 AM portable church setup scenarios. And, you know, so it's willing to, I always kind of picture the holding your hands up and recognizing that God's putting this thing to steward in your hands, you know? So this ministry, this church, he's put that in your hands. And our job isn't to put a death grip and try to manipulate and control it and, you know, manufacture the mega church out of it. But it's also not this abdication of just throwing up our hands and saying, okay, well, God, you know, there's an initiative. There's a partnership with God. And I think the, you know, that vision, that purpose, that passion that he birthed in you when you started doing everything you can to stay connected to that. - So in the last year, Jenny, just switching gears a little bit, you joined John Orkberg's team over at Menlo Park Presbyterian Church. And that's more of a transition story. So I know you're just there barely a year and the whole deal. But there are some of the different dynamics you've encountered between a church plant and a church transition so far, knowing that you joined that conversation midstream. I mean, the transition's been happening for years there. - Right, yep. Yeah, it's been such a great experience, I think, for me as a leader in two very different contexts, you know? So cross point church plant, very much the entrepreneurial, you know, scrappy, you know, just go after it, kind of like, what do we have to lose, you know? - Right. - And then at Menlo, it's 140 years of church history. It's, you know, the church has 140 years of history. And there's a really beautiful legacy with that. And then there's also just the bureaucracy that comes with 140 years and, you know, we're a denominational church. So that carries different levels of complexity alongside that. - You have to go to the press of the tree. - Exactly, exactly, you remember those days. - I remember that, yep. - It's been a whole new education for me because I was in non-denominational church world. - Right. - But you know what has been the most inspiring for me, Kerry, in this transition, is that God is doing his work in all kinds of different churches and settings. Like, yeah, it's like, I sat in the balcony at Menlo, one of the first few weeks I was there and just kind of welled up with tears because there were 80-year-olds worshiping alongside teenagers in this beautiful, I don't even know how old the building is, probably 100-year-old traditional church building. And, you know, we've got the lights and we've got the worship team and we've got some of the modern elements of church in this beautiful old historic building and literally multiple generations worshiping alongside each other. Now, that's not coming without the complaints of the music's too loud or the music's not cool enough for the, you know, I mean, so what has come with this transition for me is a, just a, I think, a greater respect for the generations who have gone before us. - Right. - And, you know, in Menlo's case, you know, 140 years of history with generations of leaders who just stayed the course and were faithful and there are a few 140-year-old churches that are still experiencing growth and still reaching the next generation. And so, there's a weight of responsibility. I feel as a leader to say how do we steward this right? How do we get this right? Because you know what? It would be much easier for me to just turn it into a church-like cross-point where it's reaching mostly 20 and 30-somethings because that's what I know. That's what we did and we did it really effectively and they're still doing it amazingly effectively. But that's not what Menlo's called to. Like, Menlo's called to, you know, just steward their heritage and their history while also keep evangelism alive and well and figuring out how to reach the Bay Area that is very post-Christian. And I think like 4% of the population attends church at all in the Bay Area. And you know, so it's, I'm going off on tangents here, but it's just, they're very different, but they're both very rich. And I think there's something in that, I think for leaders to be aware of. 'Cause sometimes we have our churches that we aspire to and we think, well, if I could just be like them, then my church would have this growth or this influence or these opportunities. And I think what I'm learning is, you know, being at Menlo, having been at cross point, networking with churches across the world, is that God is faithful and is doing his thing through the local church. And we've got to stay faithful to whatever that is that he's called us to. - That's a good word. And, you know, the other thing, we don't have a lot of time left, but like at Menlo, you guys have gotten multi-site, right? Which is an innovation. And yet you've managed to broker the generation. So I just got to ask you, 'cause I imagine people listening from the kind of context you describe are going. - So what do you say to all the people who say the music is too loud and the lights are too bright? How do you navigate that? I mean, that is just super practical. It's like, that happens every day. - It is, it's, you know, it's just real life, you know, in churches like ours. So I think a lot of it is, you know, helping all of our folks recognize that, you know, they want their grandkids worshiping, right? And, you know, and I use this analogy a lot too, and that in family units, you know, when that new baby is born, grandma and grandpa will let their house become a wreck for that new baby to come over and all the gear and all the, you know, stuff that goes along with new baby. And I think sometimes in churches, we're not as quick to be embracing of the next generation and going, you know what, we're kind of gonna adapt our world a little bit to let them be comfortable, to accommodate them, you know? And again, it doesn't mean you throw everything out, but, but there's a, you know, I think it's the vision casting and frankly, like I sometimes am like, I don't know why the 20 year olds like that, you know? So it's like, even though I still feel quite young as a leader, I'm realizing I'm starting to see the generational gap, you know? And I think there's just, I think there's an opportunity for us to go, you know what, I gotta hold it loosely and I want to see people come to faith. I want to see them engaging with Jesus. And so am I willing to give up a little bit of my comforts for that? But then we get super practical, right? Like we have earbuds, you know, earbuds things available at the end to base. - Yeah, earplugs, so that it's too loud then. - Yeah, put your earplugs in. We actually are working on this little map of the auditorium that tells you where there are quieter spots because acoustics are a little quirky in our building. - Sure they are. - So it's like, it's kind of meeting people where they are of saying, you know, and then at Menlo, because we do have such a span of generations, we have an ADM traditional service on Sunday morning. And you know what, it's vibrant and healthy. We have a good portion of our congregation that worship there. So for as long as that's still effective, you know, we've, you know, we have that, you know. - Bridget's the gap, right? - Bridget's the gap, yeah. - Well, and I think the other thing that's really important in what you said, Jenny, is you're not apologizing for who you are either. Yeah, it is loud and it is bright, but I love the grandparent analogy. You know, we'll let our house get messed up for the sake of the new baby. - Yeah. - And who doesn't want that? And you appeal to the why, which is yeah, we want a church where our grandchildren want to come and where our sons and daughters want to worship with their families. And this is the price. This is what we pay. - Yeah, yeah. - Why not embrace that? We see that at our church too, even though it's a church plan. - Totally, yup. And you know, we experienced some of that at cross point too. You know, even in 12 years of ministry, you started to see, you know, just a little more of that age diversity and you reckon, you know, so there's, again, a lot of it is coming back to that why and just helping everybody understand the vision and the purpose and it isn't just that we want to be cool, you know, because I think it can be reduced to that if we're not careful. And I think we have to check our spirits on that. We have to check, you know, why are we doing some of the things we're doing and make, you know, and then it's also, again, it's back to the, you've got to move people through change at a healthy pace, you know, so you can't get too far out ahead of people. So, you know, even with our music culture at Menlo, it's been several years kind of reshaping our music culture. And if you asked our worship guys, they would say it's not, you know, they still have dreams of, you know, some more grandiose things that they want to do. But, you know, it's also them recognizing, if I, you know, I've got to bring people with me. And, you know, so I've got to keep, you know, kind of stretching us to continue to reach who we want to reach, but not forsaking the people who have been here and helped build it with us. So, yeah. - Those are good words, Jenny. This has been, this has been a joy to hang out with you today. So thank you so much. And what's really cool is you're going to be one of the speakers on the senior leader track at the Orange Conference this year. - I'm excited about that, yeah. - Really excited about that. So that's at the end of April. We'll have the link in the show notes. It's like April 29th, I think, to May 1st. - Cool. - And so, Jenny's going to be doing a breakout and you don't want to miss that. And you can register today at the orangeconference.com/seniorleader. And where else can people reach you, Jenny? If they want to know more, find out about your book or what you're doing. - Yeah. The easiest way to stay connected with me is my website, which is jennycatron.com. J-E-N-N-I-C-A-T-R-O-N.com. And I blog there not as frequently as I like to as a plate, but I blog there regularly. And then there's info about books and speaking and all that fun stuff too. - Your book's called "Clout." - Yes. - Awesome. Jenny, thanks so much. - Carrie, this is fun. Thank you for the conversation. And thanks for leading all of us so well. We're grateful for you. - Well, isn't Jenny super sharp? That's why I love hanging out with her. She is just, man, she just goes. No wonder. I mean, and what 13-year-old decides they want to be a record company executive? I think that's so cool. So if you enjoyed this, you probably want more. You definitely want to check out her book, "Clout." It is a great book, all about the character of leadership. And if you want more information or some of the links we talked about in the interview, just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode25, where you will find the show notes. And just a reminder, thank you once again to the sponsor for this podcast, "The Orange Conference." Go to the orangeconference.com/seniorleader and make sure you register there, getting in on an incredible track and some of the best leadership training you're gonna find anywhere for you and your entire team. In the meantime, we're back next week with episode 26. And in this episode, you're gonna hear from another guy who's been on the executive pastor track for a while, Tim Stevens. Tim's got a brand new book. We're gonna talk about some of the insights he has outlined in that book. It's called "Fairness is Overrated." And Tim's one of those guys, when you sit down, he's led for 20 years. It's like, wow, if I could have three hours, I think I could learn a whole lot of things I need to learn and unlearn some things I need to learn. We're gonna talk about hiring the right people. We're gonna talk about the culture you create and how all of those things are just so essential to leadership. So you're not gonna want to miss that and the best way not to miss it is to subscribe for free. You can do that right now. Just go to iTunes, Stitcher, Tune & Radio, subscribe for free. We'll be in your inbox next Tuesday, one way or the other. And until then, have a great week. And I really do hope this episode helped you lead like never before. You've been listening to the "Carry Newhoff Leadership" podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)