The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 022 - How to Kill —and Rebuild—Your Marriage. An interview with Justin and Trisha Davis
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. (upbeat music) - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 22 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. I'm so glad that we're together, and I hope this helps you lead like never before. If you have ever, in leadership, felt like if people really knew what was going on at home, I don't know whether I'd still be in leadership, or maybe you've even thought of leaving leadership because of what's going on at home. And if you've ever been there, even for a season, I think you're gonna love today. I'm gonna sit down with Justin and Tricia Davis, and if you don't know them, you're gonna wanna get to know them. They have an unbelievable story of how they had experienced a lot of success in ministry early, but basically their home life crumbled. Their marriage was really just a shell, a few years into their marriage, and it almost, well, I did for a season, cost them their leadership, but they have, over the last nine years, come back incredibly powerfully, and God is using their life and also their story in a really cool way. So you're gonna meet Justin and Tricia Davis. Maybe you've read their book, Beyond Ordinary, or maybe you've heard them, they do marriage seminars all over the United States, and I'm sure beyond. You're really gonna appreciate this interview. It's a little bit longer than most of our interviews. It's almost an hour, so just to flag for you, but I think when we get into it, you'll kind of understand why. I had the same response to the interview as I did to their book, because I read their book prior to this, and I'm not, I just can't put it down kind of reader. I'm like, "Will I get to the end?" That's the kind of reader I am. Couldn't put their book down. They have a powerful story, and I hope at the end of the day, it's encouraging. I hope it's really helpful for you. I promise you, it has got wrenchingly honest, and my wife and I have talked about seasons that we've gone through a few years ago, where it got rough. Not in the same way that Justin and Tricia's story got rough, but I mean, we all have our own episodes, and it's just good to know you're not alone, and it's good to know that even Christians struggle, and they struggle deeply, and so I hope that it is gonna be really helpful for you. So it is a little bit longer. This is actually something I might do a little bit more of in the future, is longer interviews. I mean, if the subject necessitates it. I know I listen to other podcasts. Sometimes they're an hour and a half, and trust me, all of ours will not be an hour and a half, but sometimes the subject matter just kind of demands it, and you end up in the kind of conversation where if you were sitting down over a cup of coffee with Justin and Tricia or other leaders like that, you're like, yeah, I'm glad, like I felt like we just got the total debrief. So you might have to divide this into two or three parts. I hope it's helpful, and before we get into it, I really wanna thank the people at Orange who are bringing you today's podcast. Do you know that the Orange Conference is just a couple of months away. It happens April 29th to May the 1st if you have never been there. It's incredible, and you can actually get everything you need for the Orange Conference by visiting the orangeconference.com, and if you go to the orangeconference.com/seniorleaders, we have a special promotion for you. That's time sensitive. We're gonna give you $50 off the entire conference. You can get it for a limited time for $259 by registering today using this code. OC 15 CN Podcast, you know, no spaces. OC 15 CN Podcast, if you fill that in today, you're gonna hear from people like, well, you've heard on the podcast already, Josh Gagnon, Jenny Katrin, who's coming up. I'm gonna speak on that track. You're gonna hear over the conference from Perry Noble, Judd Wilhite. Jeff Henderson is gonna be speaking. John Acuff, Reggie Joyner, Doug Fields. It's like leadership on steroids for three days in Atlanta, Georgia. I would love to have you come. Just go to the orangeconference.com/seniorleaders to register today. We can't wait to have you there. All the details for that and for the show notes for Justin and Tricia, you can find at karaenuhoff.com/episode21. So, passing your seatbelts, got wrenchingly honest discussion with Justin and Tricia Davis. So excited today to have Justin and Tricia Davis on the podcast. Welcome. - Thank you for having us. - Good to be here. - Well, I gotta tell you, I don't read many books in one sitting, but oh my goodness, your book refine us. Wow, that was almost impossible to put down and so honest and so real. And all the links will be in the show notes, but it's really about your story and your story as a couple. And you tell it with some pretty gut wrenching honesty. So maybe we should just start at the beginning for those who haven't read it or as a reminder, I should say, for those who have. Tell us a little bit about how you met and how you fell in love as a couple. - Well, we met in 1993 at a small Christian college in Lincoln, Illinois. And the truth, Carrie, is that I was more in love with me than Tricia was. - It's true. - But I saw Tricia one day, a buddy of mine came up to me and he said, "Hey, have you seen the hot chick "from Chicago with a bright red lipstick?" And I had not seen Tricia yet. And sure enough, she came out of chapel the next day and big 1993 poofy hair and a bright red lipstick. And I'm like, "Oh, this is the girl I need to meet." - Do you wanna tell them how you introduced yourself to me? - I think that's, this is a leadership podcast. I don't think it's really relevant. - No, I think leaders are interested in inquiring minds wanna know. - Yes, how not to introduce yourself? - Yeah, so it was the worst pick-up line of all time, but I just, I casually made my way to Tricia in the lunch room and I just said, "Hey, my name is God "and this is my son, Jesus Christ, "introducing my friend to her." And I think he should get to know us. - You should have been expelled for that. (laughing) You really should have. - I don't know if it was, I don't know if it was because we were at a Christian school. I was trying to make it spiritual, but it was the worst pick-up line of all time. And my kids, we've been married for almost 20 years and my kids make fun of me every time they can over that story. - I wish I could say it got better, but it didn't because then there was a bet that was placed that I'd go out with them and then I found out about the bet. So it took us about a good six months just to have conversations with one another. But I will say, once we kind of got to know each other, the cool thing is because we didn't date, it just allowed us to become friends and I secretly really liked him. And after he lost the bet, then I agreed to date him and the rest is history. - Yeah, and after that pickup line, didn't it take like 50 attempts, 50 times you had to ask her out or something? - The way that you just said that, it sounded like I was stalking her. There were no stalking charges filed or anything like that. It was persistence. - Yeah, there you go. - As leaders, we have a vision, a preferred future. And she was in my preferred future and I just wanted her to know it. - Well, that's cool. Now, there were cracks. I mean, there's cracks in my relationships. There were cracks in your relationship. But when did they first surface? When did you start to get the idea that, "Ah, this isn't what I hoped it would be?" - Yeah, I think you get married with this fairytale picture of what marriage is gonna be like. And Justin and I, honestly, we're living the dream and we were broke and leading in a small church. But to us, we couldn't imagine it any other way. The problem was is we got married four months later. I found out I was pregnant. First time in ministry, all of these leadership issues we had never faced in a work environment, ministry environment and then in our marriage. And then a year into our ministry, my parents end up divorcing. And you know, you don't realize some of the wounds that are brought to you, that you don't even choose, start to affect your marriage. Like you're not prepared for that. And for me personally, I slowly kind of drifted to this place. - Well, if my parents' marriage can end after 25 years, what does that mean for our marriage? - Right. I can see that. You know, my parents are in a different place. They're still together. And at times where it's gotten really difficult for my wife and I kind of look at my parents and her parents and go, "Well, if they can hang in there, "maybe I can hang in there and we can hang in there." And we're in a good season now, but like there are seasons where it was, "Oh, you know, if it wasn't for our faith "and it wasn't for people around us, "I'm not sure we'd be together." - Yeah, and I think as a pastor, you know, there was this tension that I felt of knowing that things weren't as good as they could be at home. But, you know, I was 21 when we got married and I didn't know what I didn't know. You know, I knew that we weren't arguing like my parents argued. I knew we weren't going to get divorced. Like her parents were getting divorced. I just felt like, you know what? How can you be resentful of the church? This is what's providing for our family. This is our calling. You know, this is what we're called to do. And I threw myself into ministry out of a love for it. Yes, but I think also out of a desire to feel validated and valued out of my own insecurities. And I didn't realize that till years later, but there was an aspect of ministry that fed a brokenness in me that allowed me to find my value and identity in what other people thought of me and in what they thought of my messages, my leadership, the growth of our ministry. And I began to really value those things of ministry more than I valued my relationship with God. And again, this is several, you know, years and hours of counseling later looking back. It wasn't something conscious and it wasn't something deliberate. It wasn't something that was malice. It was just not recognizing the broken parts of my heart that ministry became a perfect kind of a, it was like a perfect storm of allowing those things to erode our relationship with really without even knowing it. You know, let's talk about that. I want to come back to that in a little bit in the interview just in about ministry and whether it produces unique challenges. So I'm glad you raised that. Let's talk about the stress in your marriage though. If there, and I mean, you outline the issues in your book with candor, but just in some reform. What were some of the key stressors that you both experienced in the relationship? - I don't think from a ministry perspective, you believe this lie. At least I did that if you are doing well at ministry, then your life will just go up into the right. You know, if I'm faithful to God, then I'll grow in my relationship with God. Even if I'm not doing the hard work, you know, because I did some hard work last week in the nursery or I did some hard work by leading a small group or, you know, we're doing things for God, but we're not in relationship with God. And so we were so busy doing, you know, here we had spent seven, eight years in ministry, youth ministry, and then we decided to plan a church. And the way that we planted the church was kind of a parachute drop, where we literally moved to this area, knew very little people and just did what we thought was best, the best next step. And some of those next steps weren't really the best, but in it, God was blessing it. And in three short years, our little church plant just explodes. And we were relying so much on our giftedness that we didn't have to think about our character. We just thought that God had us. And I think we knew things weren't well, about two years into the church plant where all of our dreams are coming true, but it's not satisfying us the way we thought it would. It's not helping to heal arguments we're having at home. It's not bringing us closer together. And I got to this place where honestly, I felt like, you know, the bride of Christ, she was like a mistress. I was competing against the church to get Justin's attention or for him to not stay late at a meeting and actually be home for dinner. And I just started holding him hostage to those things rather than saying anything because in my mind, I just thought, I gotta take one for the team. It's ministry and good leaders, you take one for the team and out of that, for my journey in it, I just started going down this slope of just being a resentful person. - I think in our minds, we thought, well, this is just a season. And so the season of Christmas turned into the season of Easter, turned into the season of Mother's Day, turned into the season of Fall Kick Off. And all of a sudden, you know, that season is a lifestyle and it's not just a lifestyle, it's 10 years of our life. And we're having the same arguments over and over again with no resolution. And sometimes it's easier not to argue, you know? And so we're having financial difficulty because we're not really on the same page financially because we don't have time to be on the same page because we're so busy and so stressed out. And, you know, when you live your life to try to do great things for God, sometimes you forget to allow God to do great things in you. And I think that that was the condition of our heart and our marriage relationship. And again, it's easy to look back on and see it. I don't necessarily think at times, it's really that easy to see it when you're in the moment. - Oh, for sure, I can see that. And what's kind of interesting about the story, and I don't think this is entirely unique, but it must be perplexing, is that you were losing at home, but you were winning in ministry. You served a lot of churches in those first few years and you moved an awful lot. And I mean, things didn't always work out the way you hope, but everywhere you went, the church grew. At first, it was student ministry, then you planted your own church. And I mean, everywhere you went, it was like a zero to 200 story in a year. And was that confusing for you that God seemed to be blessing one era of your life, but really it was falling apart on the inside? - You know, I think one of the things I recognized about Christian leadership and even the culture of the church is that character isn't sexy. Like no one's handing out awards at catalyst for the most patient or the kindest pastor. You know, I mean, like we celebrate growth. We celebrate explosion. We celebrate this pastor who is a dynamic speaker. We don't celebrate the pastor who's an amazing father. I'm not saying those two things are mutually exclusive. I'm just saying for the way that our culture is set up and how we have gone about recognizing what success is, we view success and giftedness, not necessarily in character. And so it didn't seem incongruent to me to have tension at home and yet an explosive church because I didn't see it in those terms. I wasn't seeing that I was losing it at home. I saw it as things aren't as good as I want them to be, but I'm really accomplishing a lot in ministry and for God. And so it was one of those things where because we didn't know any different and because that became our lifestyle, we began to settle for this is marriage as it is and this is just marriage as usual, you know? - So that wasn't a disconnect for you then necessarily, Justin. How did it feel for you, Tricia? - I just think I thought the season would end and when the season didn't end, I just became a little bit more grouchier and played the part a little bit better. And what's hard is that I'm a rule follower. So to be obedient to God is very natural. And so some of it, I just felt like I was being obedient. What I was really doing was enabling. I was enabling Justin to have those character flaws all under the name of I'm being obedient to ministry. And it got to a point where I knew we were not well and I remember having a conversation with an elder in his wife in between services. And I mean, I just, I couldn't do it anymore. And I just melted and kind of exploded from my mouth all these words of dysfunction that's happening in my marriage and their response out of just the nature of the way that people see leaders was to pat me on the back and kind of give me a, this is probably you, not him, pep talk. And I don't think it was out of malice. And I don't think it was because they're not wise, godly people, but I think that we put our leadership on such pedestals of what we want our lives to be, that we don't want to see the character flaws in our leaders. It's too painful. And when that happened, I completely shut down. I shut down with Justin, I shut down with God. And I just, you just come to the place, I think especially in Christianity that to be obedient, even to read the Bible, to lose your life is to gain. But what does that really mean in the fine print of leadership, in the fine print of being a ministry leader? It's a lot easier to say it than it is to figure it out and learn it in the day to day, in the mundane, in the not so glossy parts of ministry. - That's super helpful. If you guys, and this is not normally the kind of question people would ask because it just seems rude, but you are so honest and so transparent in your book. Tricia, if you had to say, okay, here are two or three mistakes I brought into the marriage. Two or three character things I brought into the marriage. I know one of them for example, was forgiveness, right? You had yourself identified as having forgiveness issues. What were some of those things that you brought into the marriage? And the reason I'm asking is not to put you on trial. It's just, as I read the book, as you talked about your part and Justin, you talked about yours, I just saw myself in it. Not every part, but some parts for sure it was like, oh yeah, I do that, or I did that. So what did you bring into it that was not helping Tricia? And then what did you bring into it that was causing problems, Justin? - You know, one of the ways that we identified it, really the book for us was a gift, I would say from our counselor that said, "You can't heal a wound you don't give a name to." And I think the way we were wounded each other, we didn't know the names of them. I mean, we had no idea. And as Justin and I, in the healing process, think along the way kind of how we've termed it, and people have used this before, is that we had this like Messiah complex. - Okay. - Where, for me, Justin was my Messiah instead of God. Like, I needed Justin to be perfect. I needed him to be home on time. I needed him to be a good dad. I needed him to provide for us financially. I mean, I'm not, I don't think I'm expecting that of him, but deep down inside, I am. And at some point, I stopped looking at God to provide all my needs, and I was looking to Justin, because, you know, if you read our book, we did move a lot in ministry, and Justin is a dynamic leader, and through that leadership, we would grow. But the way that I'm wired is I love people, and I'm loyal, and I love seeing people flourish, and that's my heartbeat. So I don't care if there's five people in the room, or 5,000, I'm gonna find a way to love you. And so with each move, there was this disconnect of how do I stay true to who I am, where I can't even stay put to love people well? And so when we got to the church plant, like this, there was so much expectation, because this was the promised land. Like, this was finally the ministry where I was gonna see my students, 'cause I love student ministry, I was actually gonna see one of my students graduate from high school. You know, I would get them from freshman to senior year. All of these expectations, but not because that's what God was calling us to, but it was because I was expecting that from Justin. Like, you are the Messiah, and you're gonna provide this for me, because this is what I'm owed in ministry. - So expectations that Justin just couldn't possibly live up to? - Right. - Justin, how about for you? Thanks for that Tricia. - You know, I think for me, there's a lot of different, there's numerous, too numerous to be contained in one podcast. - Sure. - But, you know, I think I had this belief that in order to be qualified, I had to pretend like I was perfect. Like, I had to have it all together all the time. And so, it's funny because I think sometimes in ministry, that attitude, you know, comes across as pride. You know, you look at a pastor, and you think, man, that guy is really arrogant, or that guy is really, you know, prideful. I think that was how I was perceived at times of being a real arrogant or prideful person, but it wasn't born out of pride, it was really born out of insecurity. I just, I was so insecure in my leadership, I was so insecure in my abilities, and who I was in Christ, and who I was in ministry, and who I was at home, that I would just pretend to have it to be more put together than I really was. And one of the things that was really helpful for me, as we were going through our own crisis and recovery, is I read a book by Britta Manning called "Abbas Child." And he has a whole chapter in there on the imposter, and how so often when we don't have an authentic relationship with Jesus, we create impostors that allow people to think certain things about us that aren't true. And I had an imposter for basically every person in my life that meant something. And so I would pretend to be something in a church board meeting, I would pretend to be something on Sunday morning, I would pretend to be something to Tricia, as in an effort to be the Messiah, to live up to everyone's expectations that I'm gonna lead the church, and I'm gonna lead our family, and I'm gonna be the best pastor, and I'm gonna be the best communicator. And it was all a facade that I didn't even realize I was building until it came crashing down. - Wow, and so let's talk about that. When did things reach the breaking, how did that exactly come down where you realized, this is so broken, I'm not sure it can be fixed. - 'Cause when you take the deep side. - Yeah. - You know, I think all of this kind of culminated, you know, in October of 2005, we had just gone through a building campaign where our church was about three years old, we had launched public services about 18 months prior to this. - And you were the lead pastor of this church. - Yeah, and we had the opportunity to purchase the banquet hall that we were meeting in. And so we did what every church does, we dove into a capital campaign. And so we needed to raise a million dollars, the average age of our church was 28 years old, and it just took a lot of time and a lot of leadership and a lot of intensity. And by God's grace, I mean, this church just stepped up and we're sacrificial and we raised over a million dollars. And so we had come out of the season of great sacrifice and just seeing God do some incredible things, but because of all of the baggage and all of the wounds that we had in our marriage relationship and that I had carried personally in my own life for my entire adult life, it didn't bring joy, it didn't bring satisfaction or fulfillment or contentment, there was just this deep void. And it all culminated in October of 2005, I came home from church and sat Trisha down, I said, "Hey, we need to have a conversation." And she said about what and I said about us. And she was laying down for an afternoon nap and she set up in the bed, she said, "Well, what about us?" And I said, "I'm done." And she said, "You're done with what?" And I just said, "I'm done with you." Like, "I'm out, I don't want to be married anymore. I don't want to be in ministry anymore. I'm not even sure I want a relationship with God anymore. I'm not in love with you and I'm having an affair and it's with your best friend." And I just, I went out. And, you know, even nine years later, I wish it were a confession of remorse and repentance, it was just a confession of resignation. And so obviously our conversation intensified and Trisha left the house and our elders came over and tried to talk some sense into me, not necessarily to spare me of the consequences of leaving the church, but more just trying to talk me out of my decision to leave Trisha and our three boys. And I was just in such a dark place, Carrie. I think there was part of it that I was in such a dark place that I wasn't willing to listen. And I think there was another part of it that I, in order to inflict that amount of pain on people that I loved, I had to divorce myself from the emotional carnage I was causing. And I just, I was just didn't wanna hear it. - Wow, Trisha, that I just can't imagine hearing news like that. - Yeah, you know, the year up to everything, you know, finally breaking, I knew that something was up with Justin, but I'll be honest with you, I didn't think Justin would ever have an affair 'cause he already had a mistress. And that was the church and he wouldn't have an affair 'cause he wouldn't wanna give her up. And I know that sounds so crass. And so, not very Christian-like, but that's just where I was. - I think that's honest, to be honest with you. I don't think you're the only person who had that thought, keep going. - So, you know, I just thought, I just, if I could just oust Justin, you know, once people find out who he is, then I can start living life without the church and without, you know, like, I had just had a very great self view of myself. And while I didn't have an affair, you know, we say now, you know, the affair had devastating consequences, but it was a symptom of much deeper issues in our personal relationship with God and in our relationship with each other. And I just thought healing would come once everything broke. Now, I had no idea that an affair was going on. And so, when that happened, it was, I call it the picture frame moment. You know, if anybody's ever experienced death or tragedy, it's like you walk back into your home to a familiar place and nothing feels familiar. Like, that picture frame doesn't feel familiar. And with that confession, you know, I lost everything. I lost my church family. I was losing Justin. I lost my best friend. But the biggest loss that I didn't know how to wrap my mind around was my identity, because although I wasn't the lead pastor, I was the pastor's wife. And as someone who's a rule follower, how could I not, how much more could I disappoint God? So Justin doesn't want to be with me. Why would God want to be with me? And those first couple of days, they were just dark because I was so mad. I was so mad. But I think I got to this point where, you know, they say all the time to do something over and over again, expecting different results as insanity. I was so tired of feeling insane that I just broke and cried out to God that I want to do something different. Like, I don't want to be this person anymore. And I think for me, in the healing process in the beginning days, had nothing about reconciling my marriage, but just desperate, like never before, to not live under this umbrella of fear in paranoia that we're going to become. Like, all my worst nightmares had come into fruition and God was still God. He was the same that he was yesterday when we were great pastors and he was the same in this moment where I had lost everything. - So it was a very difficult road back for you, but there was a road back or a road through or however you want to describe. Walk us through that. I mean, a lot of couples, this would have been fatal. Probably fatal to the marriage, fatal to the family, fatal to church leadership, fatal to even faith where you're like, "I'm going to pack it in and it's over." - How did you get to the point where you are now? I mean, you're married and you're serving in ministry and you love each other and you have probably a more authentic relationship with each other and a better relationship with each other than you ever have? So how did that happen? - Well, I think it was definitely a long journey. I think the first and primary reason that we're even here today is because of the hundreds of people that prayed for us and just lifted us up in prayer and wouldn't allow us to go. They just loved us so well in the early days and to the church's credit that I left, they paid 100% for our counseling. And so a few days after we separated, we were separated for two and a half months and we didn't talk for the first 10 days of our separation, but the church sent us to counseling. And that began, I was in ministry for 10 years and had never been to counseling. My philosophy was I'm a pastor, I don't go to counseling, I do counseling. And I think it sounds arrogant to say, but I think there was this, again, this fear in me that if I go to a counselor, they're gonna recognize all the things that are wrong with me. - Right. - And I don't wanna face those things. - That's painful. - Yeah, and so we started going to counseling. I started going by myself and then we started going to counseling together and did that consistently for the first two years and we moved away, we moved about 30 minutes away from the town that we started the church in, bought a house on the west side of Indianapolis and literally just started over. I started working as a headhunter for commercial bankers and we just began to pursue God and pursue each other not because it was what we were supposed to do in ministry, but just out of an authenticity and an overflow of our own heart. And there were days that we took two steps forward and then three steps back. It wasn't a perfect process, but God began to peel back layers of dysfunction and brokenness and hurt that we hadn't either taken the time to talk about or had the courage to talk about. And one of the things that we say all the time is that God didn't wanna give us an improved version of our old marriage, He gave us a brand new marriage. And I think so often we robbed God of the opportunity to create something new because we're so busy trying to patch up the old version of ourselves. And so it was a road filled with pain and introspection and counseling and tears but of joy and just awe of man, God has done an incredible thing in our marriage relationship. And so four years into our recovery, we were awesome, we were making great money, we were sleeping in on Sunday. It was great. - We're going on President Club's trips. I'm like, I don't care how many people show up on Sunday morning. - We are not going to the Grand Caymans. - Exactly. - 'Cause you did really well in your corporate career, right as a headhunter? - You know, it was right before the market crash and the economy tank, it was 2006 to 2009. And so it was just good years for the financial services industry. And so I had never done anything outside of ministry. So I just felt like God's hand was just on all of that. And then a pastor asked if we would share our story publicly for the first time. And we had, it's just Indianapolis is a small town and we had people that would either call us or email us and say, hey, so and so told me your story. My wife and I are having trouble. Could we come over and have dinner? Or I would get to know somebody at the church we were attending and they would mention that they were having marriage problems and we'd go out for coffee. And so we were gradually and occasionally sharing our story over a dinner or a cup of coffee, but we had never shared it publicly. And so Tricia was real hesitant to do that at first. And then the pastor played the pastor card and just said, would you pray about it? Which is basically just saying, you know, if you don't do this, you're gonna disappoint God. - Right, right. - And so we did that. And that kind of opened up a door for us, not just a door, but just opened up a realization that man, there's a redemption story here that we don't own and that God's calling us to be a steward of. - How was the recovery process from your rebuilding, I guess, or the new creation process, Tricia, for you? I mean, how did you find it in you to forgive? How did you find it in you to begin again? How did that happen for you? - Yeah, I think there's so many layers to that, but I think from the identity piece, from a leadership piece, there was this reality that Justin spoke that Sunday morning. I'm a worship leader, so I had led worship that morning. That afternoon, Justin confesses and our family never goes back. And you know what happened the following week? Church happened. And what happened the following week? Church happened. And it was this reality that God never called us to live through our identity of what we do, but who we are in Him. And it was a stripping of everything that we thought we were living for and just resting in ourselves. There was no church to find our identity. There was no church at the church we ended up going to with a welcome wagon to say, we're so excited that you're coming on staff. It was just bare bones. People were loving us for who we were. And I think a lot of times, we focus on marriage from the aspect of two people. But I really believe that your marriage is at its best when you are individually taking care of your own heart because I can't change Justin. And so I could have spent that time trying to change Him. I could have spent that time trying to manipulate Him to be who I wanted Him to be. But I think resting in who God was calling me to be meant I needed to figure out what it meant to live a life of forgiveness. And forgiveness is messy. I believe that Jesus gives us that small glimpse of a conversation of Peter asking Jesus, how many times do you forgive? And Jesus replies 70 times seven, not like as this mathematical equation, but that Jesus knew it was a process. That forgiveness sometimes isn't about having to forgive a person because they need to be forgiven over and over again, but that every day that you need to choose and that what we stand for, what we believe in, that Jesus Himself, I've talked about this for years. I went to Bible college. I memorized the Bible and never got it to that depth that Jesus chose to forgive me regardless if I chose Him. Like He still chose God. And I wanted to know what life like that looked like. And there were days where I did really well. There were days that I didn't do well. But I think what forgiveness leads to that bitterness doesn't is healing. And I've never lived a life fully healed. I've never lived a life without fear. And so I think for a lot of us in ministry and a lot of us as leaders, it's not that we're not choosing those things because we don't desire them. We just don't really believe it exists. Like we don't really believe we can be fully loved and fully who we are in both the good and bad of how we are wired and how we're created and the things that we mess up in. And so we start living this life that we think not only the people around us that were leading want us to leave, but what we believe God wants us to leave. - That's one of the things I so appreciate about the way you told the story. Honestly, I didn't tell you this before we started, but there were times where I was reading your book where I thought, I feel like I'm reading the Old Testament. Like, you know, this is, it's so candid and it's so real and it's not pretty, but it's just, it's honest and it's true and it's so helpful because I think most people can relate to that. So let's talk about leadership and ministry. You guys have hinted at that already. Do you think being in leadership like having responsibility and then let's take it another level, being in leadership and ministry adds pressure to a marriage and to relationships and to family? And if so, how? - You know, I think any leadership position, whether that be in a company, whether that be in an organization, nonprofit, whether that be in a church, it's pressurized. You know what I mean? Like, because other people are counting on you to take them to a place that they can't get to without leadership, there is a sense of expectation and pressure. I think one of the things that we've seen as we went back into ministry, we've been back in ministry almost six years. So we were out of ministry a little, well, right at four years and we had this belief that ministry was going to be different this time around because well, one, because it wasn't gonna be a lead pastor and then two, because we were different people. And then we got into ministry and like four months later, we realized it's hard. Like, people are people and they're not perfect. And so I think, you know, what I think leadership and leadership in ministry does, it just illuminates the heart and the character of the leader. And so often I think as leaders we're scared of what that looks like. And so we do our best to cover it up or to deflect it. And that was me. I just, I didn't want to admit, I don't know the answer to that. I didn't want to admit that I, you know, I'm not sure of the direction we should go. And so rather than just be authentic and honest about those things or surround myself with people that could help me, I just pretended a lot. And so I think that there is this aspect of ministry and leadership that brings out at times. Not the worst in people, but the true colors and the true nature of who we are. - So let's go there. All right, you're back in leadership now. You've been serving back in ministry, do you say six years? - Yeah, I'll be six years, six years in June. - Yeah, so that's a pretty good track record. So how did you scale that? How did you navigate that? How did you become more authentic, more honest? Like not living multiple lives being, you know, the dad you thought you should be or the, you know, the leader you thought you should be. How did you become comfortable as a formerly, you know, or maybe you're insecure person? - Yeah. - With saying, okay, I don't know. Is that compatible with leadership? How does that work in sort of the new you and the new us? - It's not necessarily applicable to everyone because not everyone's had this experience. I think the attitude that I had when I first came back and I work for Pete Wilson, who's the pastor of Crosspoint Church and he and I have been good friends for a long time over over 10 years. And so we have, we had a depth of relationship that this, you know, kind of worked to come back into that situation. But after you lose everything because of your own destructive choices, that sense of insecurity kind of leaves you because God met me in my most darkest moment and his grace was sufficient when I was the messiest and the most broken. This issue that this person has with me because our music was too loud on Sunday, it's small compared to that. You know what I mean? So everything has a, there's a greater, there's a different perspective. And I met with Pete, I'd been at Crosspoint, I might share this story publicly before even at Crosspoint when I spoke there. But I'd been back maybe six months and we had breakfast together and I said, this may not work. Like I'm not sure, I'm not sure this is a good fit. I'm not sure I'm the right person for this campus pastor position. And just being able to admit that, being able to walk through that and navigate that was something I would have never done. I would have played the role and been miserable on the inside and grown in an in an authentic way rather than calling some of those things out and noticing them and identifying them and allowing healing and conversations to happen as a result of those things. It made our relationship and my relationship with the church more healthy. - And Pete was probably okay with that admission, wasn't he? - Yeah, because he could see something was wrong with me. You know what I mean? Like most of the time in leadership you feel, as leaders you have this intuition that something's not right with this staff member or something's not right between us. And rather than just having authentic conversations, we wait until either something blows up or boils over or somebody resigns before we actually look at the situation and go, oh wow, I could have handled that differently. - Tricia, how about for you when you think about leadership and ministry and the unique pressures or are there unique pressures? And how did that feel for you both on the front side when things were falling apart and now on the reconstruction side? - You know, kind of like what I alluded to earlier about church going on without us. It was this reality that God, he doesn't need us. I mean, he really doesn't. He's pretty good at what he does, but that he desires us. And when you get to serve out of an overflow rather than I have to, it changes the climate of how you lead people. You don't take things personal. You don't live with this crutch of not taking a Sabbath or taking rest because you need to be involved in everything. It makes you a better leader because you realize that empowering other leaders to do the work of God is just as important as the leadership that he's given you. You can't do it all. And God's never called us to do it all. So us really kind of putting a stake in the ground of what brings us joy? What do we enjoy leading? And Justin and I, what's interesting with Refinus, we are both teachers. We both write. We both lead people through some really dark times and we also are part of weddings. And in the good times, how we go about our leadership is completely different. - That's been a case study carry of how Trish and I have worked together over the last-- - Yeah, you guys are doing it and you've got a great marriage. That deserves its own podcast or a book, a book. - I think we would have suffocated each other. And I think we suffocate each other as leaders when we try and be like that other pastor. When we try and lead like that person leads. And I think that there's wisdom and principles that are important to glean from one another. But I think how the overflow looks like for you is always gonna be different because my family's not your family. My kids and their wounds and their situations they're dealing with and the time and attention they need is different than your family. And when you have these young leaders who are in the throes of small kids or small budgets, what they see is in this Insta world that this is what they need to attain to. And we tell church planners all the time, enjoy those days 'cause you'll never get 'em back. You know, what feels small and insignificant are some of the sweetest times. It's like our kids, our oldest is 18. I would love to go back to when he was 18 months and I could not take him when he was 18 months. I mean, he was wild and didn't sleep through the night. But I think when you are in ministry as you grow, what's different about Justin and I being able to look back is that you will enjoy being a leader. The more you can lean into leading out of the overflow of what God is doing through you rather than putting this mandate of being the leader that everybody within your church walls and the people on the outside are demanding you to be. - That's a good word, Tricia, thank you. One of the things and the interview reflects the book. I mean, there wasn't a fair involved and it's not uncommon in ministry to see that. But what would you say to someone who's listening right now who's thinking of having an affair is just starting one or is in one right now? What words of advice would you have for that person? - You know, one of my best friends, the night that the affair was confessed, I still was not in a repentant state. And I remember sitting in the front seat of his car and he looked at me and he said, "You're throwing up in your mouth and thinking it's food." And it was just this powerful image of, there is no doubt that sin is enjoyable for a while. But the consequences of sin always leads to death. The death of a dream, the death of a relationship. Hurras, it was the death of the vision that God had given us to lead the church. And by his grace, I mean, the church has two campuses and being so well led now. And God's vision for that church was greater than ours. But I think so often, I think we justify sin in our minds and hearts for so long that we become desensitized to it. And we can start to believe that I deserve this or I'm entitled to this or- this is the best way out or through or- - Yeah, my husband doesn't value me like he does or my wife doesn't appreciate me like she does. And I think you can start to believe those things, but then those are warning signs. Like when you're valuing the opinion of someone else more than you are your spouse, you can recognize that you're in dangerous territory. It doesn't take a physical affair. It can be an emotional desire that you have for somebody at the church or at work or in your organization that is just unhealthy. And recognizing those things early is the key to changing them and preventing yourself. - So if you could go back in time and catch yourself right as it was starting, what would you have done differently? - You know, I was out with a board member who was also our highest contributor. And about, this is about six weeks, maybe before the affair started. And he was having some issues in his marriage. And we were sitting next to this creek and we were just sitting there throwing rocks in this creek. And he's a CEO of a major corporation in Indianapolis. Man's man kills things like deer and moose and elp and just an amazing leader. And he was opening up and being vulnerable with me in a way that he hadn't before. We'd always had great conversations but about business or about leadership or about the direction of the church. And you start talking about his marriage and giving me my advice. And I felt the Holy Spirit prompt me that this is a safe time. Like this is a safe person you can share with him. - And you already had feelings for this person. - Yeah, and not just that. I mean, I had a 10 year pornography addiction that I had hit up to that point. I'd been sexually abused and I didn't, had never talked about that. And that came out after the affair was confessed, both of those things. But I felt like all of it, not just that one relationship. I could be honest about all of it. And the second thought in my mind was he's your highest contributor. At minimum, he's leaving the church. He could possibly get you fired. He's the chairman of your board. - And so it was this fear of the consequences. Andy Stanley says it so well. We fear the consequences because we've yet to experience the consequences of concealment. We fear the consequences of confession because we've yet to realize the consequences of concealment. And that was, I was a case study for that right there in that moment. - And so you would have talked. You would have told him. - Yeah. And there probably would have been consequences. You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying that everything would have been all rosy, but the carnal damage that occurred in our family and in the lives of 800 to a thousand people, I think could have been diminished and redeemed in a different way. You know, God's the God of redemption. And so I think it could have, I think it didn't have to go down that road of an affair for God to bring about redemption and healing in our life. It was just a matter of being willing and humble enough to be honest. - Thank you for that. Tricia, from where you sit, you live through, what would your advice be to someone who's thinking of an affair starting one or in one right now? - Oh, I would want to grab them and say, it's not too late. It's not too late. You don't get to an affair overnight. For some people, it has to do more with addiction than it has to do with running. For maybe somebody listening, you're just looking for the bullet to pull the trigger. And this just is a good way. You know, if I just ruin my life, I don't have to deal with this anymore. And there are other ways out besides moral failure. And you know, Justin and I are, you know, nine years into recovery and we still go to counseling. And here's the deal. There are really a lot of bad Christian counselors out there. I'm not going to lie. - I agree. - Fight for it, you know? Don't fight for a counselor that'll tell you what you want to hear, but fight to be heard, fight to be understood and know that you're not alone. You're not the only one who's ever felt feelings for someone who's not their spouse. You're not the only one who's ever felt depressed or forgotten or less than because your ministry or your leadership hasn't been what you thought it was going to be. You don't have to choose this path to get an out. There is another way. And but you and only you can choose that. And it begins with finding someone that you can confess to. And I believe that the Bible tells us that God will give us a way out. And God's not like waiting for you to mess up morally. He's waiting for you right now. And I think that if you can believe that Jesus truly can make beauty from ashes, like when you really take that in, what happened with Justin and I, it could not have gotten any worse. And in with ashes, I couldn't have made anything with them. That's the miracle of it. And I think if you're thinking about heading down this road, I hope that you know that whatever pain you're running from or whatever relationship you think you're running to, your baggage goes with you. It's a decision of do you want it to be a time bomb where you do lose everything? Because there are consequences to our choices. - Yes. - But even in the consequences, the consequences do not negate who we are in Christ ever. And you know, Justin says all the time that Jesus says that the truth will set you free, but he conveniently leaves out that it will make you miserable first. 'Cause it's so true. But the worth on the other side of it, the value of choosing different. Although it's a short-term pain, the long-term gain of living a life fully known and fully loved, you'll look back and go, "I'm so glad I didn't choose that." - Wow, that's incredibly helpful advice. And I think ultimately it's helpful. I mean, bringing the darkness to light makes the darkness lose its power. Well, I'll tell you, I've got a lot more questions, but we are coming close to the end of our time together. I do have one or two more things I'd love to have you comment on, almost everybody struggles. Not everybody has an affair. An affair was part of your story, but I don't think there's a single person listening to this podcast who hasn't struggled in their marriage. It's like, "Oh, this isn't quite what I thought." Or, "Why does she always?" Or, "How come he?" I mean, we're all there. So if someone would say, "Okay, I'm not on the brink "of an affair. "This isn't what I'm hoping for." Or, "Yeah, there are some cracks, "and I don't know whether I want to stick around." If you had one piece of advice to give to every listener who's got some sort of struggle in their key relationship, what would it be? - I think for all of us, we get married with this vision that the longer that we're married, the better our marriage is gonna be. And that equation just doesn't always work out. I mean, it doesn't always happen that way. Longer married doesn't always equate to better marriage. But one of the things that we've realized is time plus unintentional always equals ordinary. And as leaders, we are intentional about the things that matter most to us. The people that are listening to this podcast, their leadership development is important to them. So they're being intentional by listening to this podcast. So I think if you're struggling in your marriage, my question to you is how intentional are you about that relationship? Are you investing as much time and energy and resources in it? And for a lot of us, we struggle in our marriage because we stop doing the things that cause us to get married in the first place. And kids come and careers take over and all these things begin to take away the time that we once gave to the most important relationship, human relationship in our life. And so my encouragement to you is just doing assessment of, okay, am I willing to give to this relationship what I'm giving to every other relationship or what I'm giving to the church, what I'm giving to my organization or my career and watch that relationship begin to grow. Because it's as we invest in those things that we see change begin to occur. - That's such a good thought, you know? I often get challenged. Like, am I working as hard on my family as I am on my leadership? And sometimes I don't like the answer to that question. That's a really, really good point. Tricia, anything you wanna share on that? Anything to add? - I think mine's gonna sound cheesy, but I feel like it brought such life to Justin and I that especially as leaders, for most of us, we're dreamers. And so there's something I'm trying to think of the right word. - That's okay, I'm sure it's not as cheesy as you think. - Yeah, not a chase, but there's excitement in figuring out the dream, you know? There's one thing to come up with the vision statement and it's like, how does that look? I don't think Justin and I knew that it was okay and that it is just as much fun, if not even more fun, to dream together. And I think we're just so stinking serious all the time and it's all about bills and how to do dishes and putting your underwear in the hamper and not next to the hamper. Like all these things we get caught in. And I think Justin and I just kind of took a time out and said, those things are always gonna be there. And yes, it's important to have order in your home and all that stuff, but we just dream for each other. And when we started Refinus, Justin had been a teaching pastor, a lead pastor for 15 years. I'd never spoke before, I was a worship leader, so I would speak in little nuggets. And Justin believed in me and he dreamed with me and believed that I could do whatever door God was opening. And I found myself speaking in places. I had no right to be speaking. I was scared to death, but Justin dreamt that with me. And then the small things, you know, the little things that mean a lot to our family to dream with our family, it just changes the climate that instead of it being your leadership job and then having to go home to your home stuff, it becomes more of an organic movement of who you are fully where you don't have to separate out those things. Because I know I don't have to fight against the church to have Justin. I don't have to fight for him to take a day off. I don't have to fight for him to be engaged because when you dream together, your natural response is to be invested in one another. - Tricia's definition of cheese is a lot different than mine 'cause that wasn't cheesy at all. - It's not cheesy at all, no, not in the least. - Yeah, you're right. There's this assumption that marriage is something to be endured, you know, not enjoyed. And you can really enjoy your marriage. And it's just so awesome. It is amazing to see, you know, nine years on the other side of the crisis. And really, it was the first few years of your marriage, a lot of crisis. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. You know, you love Jesus, you love each other, you love your children, you love the church, you love ministry. And there's a very different ending to that story. Wow, well, congratulations so far. This is the longest interview I've ever done. (laughing) - This not surprised me at all. - It's been riveting. - The staff at Crosspoint has a saying, Pete says a lot in a very short amount of time. Justin says very little in a very long amount of time. (laughing) - I'll tell you, I've been glued every minute of it. Now, I know there are gonna be people who want more, a lot of people who want more, and some people who want help. In fact, maybe we can talk after we get off and put a few resources together in the show notes, which could help people who are struggling, but just a couple of quick links for people. Tell us about your book and then about your ministry too, and where they can find you online. - Yeah, we wrote a book called Beyond Ordinary, and the subtitle is just when a good marriage just isn't good enough. And just the assumption that God has called us all into great, and so you can find that on Amazon, you can find that at your local Christian book retailer, Barnes and Noble, it's in all of those places. You can find it also on our website, which is refinas.org. And we started refinas as an overflow of our story, and then really just kinda kept developing into resources. And so we have a number of different free resources on there, there's a video series that we put together that's completely free. There's an ebook on eight things that destroyed our marriage that's completely free. There's a number of different posts that are all categorized into different marriage topics and leadership and relationships, parenting. There's all kinds of stuff on there that we try to allow kind of the overflow of who we are and our own story just kind of be a resource for folks. And so if you go to refinas.org, it's all laid out there for anyone that would be interested. - So you've already done that. So we will make sure to link to that in the show notes. So Justin and Tricia, thank you so, so much for sharing your story. I think you helped a lot of leaders, and I'm so grateful for that. - Thank you, Kerry, for having us. - Well, is that powerful or what? I mean, you can see why I couldn't put their book down, and maybe you did listen to this podcast all in one setting and we're intending to. So a little bit longer than usual, but I hope so helpful. Hey, if you're struggling right now, I have been there. You are there right now. Justin and Tricia have been there, and we all get there in different ways. You know, there was no affair involved in my story, but I mean, you just get into a relational funk and sometimes ministry and leadership just make that more difficult. So if you're alone or you feel like you're alone in that, just know you're not, and there are practical resources. In the show notes today, just go to KerryNewHoff.com/episode21. You'll see all the links to Justin and Tricia's material, their website, how to get their book, how to get in contact with them and their ministry. So I just hope this is a little glimmer of hope, a flicker of hope, if you're in a tough season, and if you're not, you know, we all get into patches too, and you probably know somebody who is. So thank you so much to Justin and Tricia for sharing their story so authentically and so honestly. And thank you to the good folks at the orangeconference.com. It's coming up at the end of April because you listen to this podcast. You get a special podcast only, $50 off the conference. You can get in for $259 for the entire conference. That's time-limited. Next week's the last week, so act now. The price goes up to $309 February 19th. Use this code when you register at the orangeconference.com/seniorleader. The code is OC15, CN podcast. That's OC15, CN podcast. Use that code. You will get a big discount. You'll hear from great leaders like Reggie Joyner, Doug Fields, John Acuff, Jeff Henderson, Judd Wellhite, Perry Noble, Josh Ganyon, Jenny Catrin, and more, and can't wait to see you down at the orange conference. I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna be teaching as well. And if you've never been, make the time. And hey, next week we're coming back with kind of a two-part miniseries inside a podcast. We're gonna hear from Will Mancini in episode 23 and then in episode 24 from David Kiniman. And if you are a church leader or maybe you're in the marketplace and you're just passionate about church, we've all noticed one trend. And it's simply this, that people who attend church are attending less often. Well, what is with that? And how do you respond to it? I'm gonna be writing on my blog about it. And the next two episodes of the podcast, we go deep into that conversation. They're a little bit longer as well. They're gonna be powerful. And if you're struggling with that, and I kind of hope you are because it's happening whether you notice it or not, we are gonna talk about how to respond as our culture changes massively and the church tries to figure out how to respond. So I'm super excited about the next couple of episodes, episode 23 next week to everybody who is subscribed, to all of you who have left ratings and reviews on iTunes, Stitcher, and on TuneIn Radio. Thank you so much. Your work, your subscribing and leaving ratings and reviews is keeping this podcast in the top 100 often in the top 50 or the top 10 on iTunes in Christian podcasts. And it's helping the word get out and get out in front of other leaders. So every time you do that, I am so grateful. So you can subscribe for free. iTunes, Stitcher, and TuneIn Radio. And we are back next week with a brand new episode. And I really hope that this has helped you spiritually. I know that we're praying for you too. And maybe it's just been a little bit of a flicker of hope. And I do hope that even today it's helped you lead like never before. (upbeat music) - You've been listening to the "Carry Newhof Leadership Podcast." Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) You