The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 014 - Why Sex is So Seductive - An Interview with XXXchurch.com's Ryan Russell
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hello everybody, and welcome to episode 14 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. It's great to be together today. It is almost Christmas. Can you believe that? It's mid December. This is the very first podcast episode I am recording in a suit and tie. I feel a little bit like Justin Timberlake. We are heading off to a Christmas party in a few minutes. It is a lawyer's Christmas party. My wife is a lawyer, and so we are going to her law firm tonight. I don't know what you're doing, but man, it is getting close to Christmas. And I just want you to know we're gonna keep going. We have got fresh episodes for you all December and a really exciting one to end the year and to kick off the year two in 2015. So for all of you who've been part of this podcast from the beginning, thanks for hanging in there. For those of you who have discovered it along the way, so glad to have you along. The goal is to help you lead like never before. And today we are gonna talk about sex and why it is so seductive for leaders. I've got Ryan Russell with me today. And Ryan is part of the senior leadership team over at triplexchurch.com. And that is an incredible ministry. If you've been around church world for a little while, chances are you've heard of triplexchurch. And I know when they first came onto the scene, probably I don't know a decade ago or more, I was like really confused by it. 'Cause I thought, you know, I don't really wanna go check it out. It sounds like a porn site, but that's exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to help people get out of porn. People who are stuck in porn to get out of it and they're combating porn addiction. And they're working, it started off as you'll hear Ryan say, really working with teenagers, and they still have an incredible ministry to teens. But a lot to men and women too and just leaders, they have a real heart for leaders. And so I've partnered with them on their blog in the past. They've run some of my writing on the triplexchurch.com blog and gotten to know some of their team. They just have an incredible ministry and they actually go to porn shows and they try to help deliver people out of the sex industry. Probably one of the more interesting moments so far in the history of this podcast is when Ryan starts talking to me about this guy I've never heard of, his name is Ron Jeremy. And some of you are probably laughing. It's a beautifully awkward moment in the podcast. 'Cause I think everybody except me knows who that guy is. But anyway, we talk about that in the podcast and yeah, we left that on edited. So there you go. The goal of course is to help you lead like never before. And maybe this isn't a personal struggle for you, but if you lead a church, you can be guaranteed that there are like a meaningful percentage of people who are struggling with this. It's invading marriages. Porn is, if you read the literature, rewiring our brain and many men in particular are finding it really difficult to have an actual real life relationship and to bring a normal God-given intimacy in their relationships because of porn. And so I think you're gonna find this really a helpful article, maybe for some of you, but also for the people that we serve. And wouldn't it be great if sex lived in the context that God created it to? And it doesn't, we live in a world where it doesn't. So we're gonna get into that today. Without much further ado here is Ryan Russell from triplexchurch.com. Well, I'm so excited to have Ryan Russell here on the podcast today. Ryan, welcome. - Thank you. - Hey, it's really good to have you. You're in Phoenix, Arizona, right? - Yeah, I am, sunny and hot, man. - I wanna say all the way to Tacoma or how does that work with the Steve Miller song? Anyway, nevermind, all the way to Tacoma. Anyway, nevermind. - All right, listen, Ryan, it's great to have you and you're with triplexchurch.com. So tell us a little bit about how you got involved in that ministry and what you do. - Yeah, the background of triplexchurch.com is it spring up out of a work that a lot of us were doing with teenagers. Craig Gross as the founder of triplexchurch.com and it sits underneath a larger ministry umbrella. Our passion originally was to reach out to teens who were hurting and lost and didn't know Jesus. And along the way, just mid to late 90s, really saw them struggling with pornography, sexual issues and the internet, back in the days of the modems and dial up and all that stuff, kids were getting access to the internet and pornography, straight into their bedrooms and parents. If they don't know what they're dealing with today, really didn't know what they were dealing with back then. And so, triplexchurch was born out of that passion to help teenagers really understand sexual issues. It grew out of a youth talk that Craig and his buddy Jake were doing and then was added to by another guy named Mike Foster, the creative spin on triplexchurch. So more or less have been around since the beginning, volunteering, helping out leading with some of the passion, but certainly wouldn't at all say I'm any sort of their original brain source behind it, but it's been a great journey to be a part of it and to help people who are struggling with foreign and sex addictions. - Well, and that's really what triplexchurch is all about, right? You just wanna help people who have addictions or struggle with pornography or sex addictions. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We started out with our main thrusts being raising awareness, both inside the church and outside the church and then have matured, I would say, over the years to provide prevention tools and recovery methods and help for people who are really struggling with porn and sex addictions. And we move way beyond teenagers at this point. - Yeah, for sure. How long has triplexchurch been around for? - Gosh, we just completed our 12th ministry season. - Not great. - Yeah. - Yeah. - No, I remember when you guys came out, I was a young leader and I just remember triplexchurch.com and I didn't even know that I wanted to click, you know? I was so scared of landing somewhere. I didn't wanna land, but I'll tell you, you entered the ministry field with a splash and have been making a huge difference over the years. So really appreciate what you and the team do. - Yeah, well, thank you, man. Yeah, it's been, we've had a lot of bumps along the way with the Christian world, but it's been certainly worth it. - How so just being misunderstood or people are afraid of you, or what's been happening? - I think it's because we walked the really fine line, you know, with evangelism, you know, sharing the gospel in places where most conservative Christians don't think we ought to be. And then additionally, just bringing it to the topic of sex and doing it in such a way that like really, you know, sheds a light on all that people both inside or outside the church are struggling with. And it was just so much easier for pastors to talk about safe, comfortable subjects, you know, rather than talking about sex, sexual addiction, healthy sexual marriages, you know, all of it is, you know, it doesn't make exactly for a multi-part series on the most pulpits. - Well, you know, I'll speak to that as a senior pastor myself. It's still awkward for me to talk about sex. It really is. I mean, your kids are in the church or your parents are in the church, your friends are in the church. And it's just, it's a tough subject. And yet, I mean, with sex and money, those are two of the biggest issues that destroy relationships, destroy people. So let's go there, okay? Who typically turns to triplexchurch.com when they need help? I mean, is there a typical profile? 'Cause you say like conservative Christians don't know how to handle it. And yet you serve an awful lot of conservative Christians who struggle with sex addiction, don't you? - Oh yeah, absolutely we do. I would say most people turn to us because of the anonymity that they can find at first. You know, when it's hard to go to your pastor or to your friends or even to your small group and talk about a porn or a sexual struggle, it's much easier to come online and to find resources, videos, conversation. You know, these days even find software and support groups, online support groups where you can participate and get started with accountability, recovery, healing, health, you know, find hope and an honest conversation about it all. So our demographic is really broad, like, you know, statistically speaking, you know, we hit the young, the middle age male, but you know, our female audience, if you will, or followership is certainly increased in percentage over the years. And, you know, we continue to strive to really connect and reach out to teenagers as well, kind of on the front side of before, you know, porn and sex addictions, you know, find their full glory or depth, so to speak. - So you get quite a few teenagers as well, like how young does it start at 13, 12, 15, 18? - Well, I mean, early exposure to pornography on average, you know, happens between the ages of eight and 11. - Wow. - So, you know, I wouldn't say that addiction is born at that level, but I've certainly seen it and experienced that in kids. And it's crazy to think about, but you know, I know, you know, a very close friend of mine or her son is struggling, he's nine years old, you know, and just super early exposure through a friend, internet pornography with full access through, you know, and then to know, you know, game boys and stuff, you know, with web browsers and parents just are clueless about, you know, how much unfettered access children have to the internet and the pornography if they choose. - Well, that's true, right? Because I mean, a lot of the times you think, well, when they get a cell phone, then they have an online gateway. Reality is there's a lot of six year olds with an iPod touch or a gaming system that gives them access. And I mean, that's basically full internet without just a cell phone signal, right? But as long as you're connected to Wi-Fi, you've got everything. - Yeah, and you know, we're all sneaky when we want to get into something that we know is wrong, you know, and that's born in us that real spiritual understanding of the difference between right and wrong. And you've seen it, you've seen it, you're attracted to it, you know, in your spirit. There's something you should stay away from, but you're so tempted that you run off and children do the same thing, you know, they run off and they find access to it. - Yeah, yeah, that's true. And you know, it's heartbreaking as a dad myself to think that this is probably even an elementary issue in a middle school issue, but it is. It really, really is, and that's a good point. So you start to see people then from teens right through all stages of life, particularly focused on 20 to 40. And a surprising number of women involved with sex addictions as well, true. - Yeah, that is true. - Yeah, and then, you know, obviously, ministering to a lot of wives or spouses who are seeing their partner struggle through it. - Yeah, for sure. Why do you think sex is such a big issue for Christians and particularly for leaders? Well, why is it the big one? It seems to be such a huge issue. - When you say big issue, what do you mean by that? Like, hard to deal with or find so many people struggling with it? - I think all of the above. I think that's a great way to look at it. It's just, it's everywhere, right? I mean, there's no denomination. There's no church that's, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who struggles with pornography or sex outside of marriage. It just seems to be such a universal issue and leaders are not exempt. In fact, sometimes I wonder if leaders struggle more with that than others. - Yeah, well, I mean, starting with the basics of why is sex such a big issue, you know, it's the New Testament is replete with scripture, you know, about sex and sexual struggle, sexual purity, honoring God with your body. You know, I'm sure you're more attuned to each one of the epistles than I might be, but you know, it's hard to miss a writing from the apostles without a mention of sexual purity in it. And so-- - Absolutely. - You know, it's a timeless issue and struggle and, you know, pornography on the internet is just a modern day manifestation of that same struggle with man. To get to the leadership issue, you know, I heard a really fascinating interview this week with Lance Armstrong on "The Dan Patrick Show." And it talked about, and I'll relate this back to porn in a second, but they talked about, you know, really quite honestly about the struggle to come clean with cheating and, you know, kind of delved into that and, you know, he just talked about, you know, like once you're in it and going forward and being competitive and reaching for the top and all that stuff to, you know, isolate a particular failure like cheating in your life and to come clean with that. And it's just nearly impossible. And I think leaders, when they have an issue and sex being one of them, you know, they're so wrapped up in their goals and their focus and their achievements that to take a step back and talk about their shortcoming, you know, they ultimately see it as a derailment of their goals and, you know, loss of identity and can't lay down the other things to really work on who they are as a person. And so it gets, they get more and more wrapped up with hiding their sin, hiding their failures or their personal struggles and putting those behind them, you know, the bigger the audience, the harder the honesty is to come by, I think. - No, that's a really good principle. The bigger the audience, the harder the honesty is to come by. I think that can be very true. And I wonder as a leader, whether you feel isolated at times, right? It's like, who can I tell? Because what people think about me isn't true. There's a divide in my life. I totally relate to that. That's tough. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it's tough for anybody to be honest with their struggles and let alone something as personally connected to both your spirit and your body as a sexual struggle. And then you add extending expectations with people who are listening to you or following you or taking your guidance and it gets harder and harder, you know, to come out and say, "Hey, this is an area where I struggle." And so I often wonder, you know, if a leader would start there, you know, at the very beginning of their path or their journey and own more of their struggles, honestly, with their congregations or their followings, you know, if they would have less of a difficult time keeping it out there, you know, constantly in the sense of, "Hey, here's where I'm weak. Here's where I need accountability. Here's the people I go to." To stay healthy and on the right track with God. But, you know, there's different examples, obviously. Guys across the board, you mentioned a few of the men who are, you know, coming on your podcast later and they've already been on since I-- - Yeah, since we're recording out of sequence, right? - Yeah, sorry, sorry to let people in on your little pre-recording secret. - No, no, no. But, you know, Perry Noble, I think you mentioned-- - Came to mind when you were talking. Absolutely, so honest and so transparent about even his sexual struggles. - Yeah, and he's a leader who's, you know, been on our blog and been in a relationship with us. We had him on the site a few months back and in his own ministry and his church, you know, has been straightforward about it, you know, and has, you know, a decent-sized following of people who, you know, he's teaching to you. And there's guys like that that, you know, kind of set the tone from the very beginning. And then, you know, if you go back and look at other notable leaders that are current, there's a big absence of conversation about that area or a lack of transparency maybe in their own lives. - You know, they talk about, they talk around it or they talk about it and they don't personalize it. And it's for those people, you know, that I think we would often worry. - Yeah, that's true. And I think when there's a big gap between what's happening and what people think is happening, that's where leaders get into trouble. And what I always tell our team is just because you can't tell everybody doesn't mean you shouldn't tell somebody, right? Like, somebody needs to know. And I wonder if a first step for leaders struggling with sexual addiction or unfaithfulness outside of marriage or porn or something like that is you just got to tell somebody. You've just, you know, and there's a handful of people in my life, a little bit more than a handful, who've got full access to everything. And, you know, it's one of those things that I think is so important for a leader because good things do not grow in the dark, right? As soon as you get a secret, you run into trouble. - Yeah, for sure. And it's that front side, honestly. You know, it's being accountable before there's an issue. - Yes. - Not after. - Right, because then, I mean, there's embarrassment and shame either way, but far better that you be the one to break the news or go, hey, you know what, this is tough. I've got a wandering eye or a struggle with this or, you know, I'm online in places I shouldn't be. And to actually say that out loud for the first time would be really difficult, but a lot better than basically having to confess something that's gotten way out of control. And I think that's so important for leaders and yet it's so hard when you're a leader. And I think, Ryan, I wonder if one of the other things is that for whatever reason, you know, there's no hierarchy of sins, but sexual sin just seems to leave a bigger wake than almost any sin. I mean, it's easier to recover from bankruptcy than it is from an affair, isn't it? I mean, you can recover from it. It's just more complicated. And you think about families and marriages, churches, you know, get divided or blown apart over this and even in politics, sex seems to have a particularly destructive nature to it when it goes sideways. - Yeah, I don't know, I'd have to ruminate on that for a little bit. I mean, I definitely think that society, societally, that could be the case. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I fully agree with that, but I don't know. - No, that's fair. Let's come back to that. - Okay, we'll come back to that. And you know, maybe it's just the wake is bigger because the dialogue is unhealthy, right? - Yeah, that could be, I think. You know, it comes back to, I think what we're talking about, you know, conversation in the church. You know, it's the taboo topic. And because it's the taboo topic, maybe it seems like the wake is bigger. You know, we're so shocked and surprised because of the absence of conversation. And the church, yeah, I guess I agree with you in some senses, but I think it goes back, seems back to like the fear of conversation. You know, there's some conversations we just can't have. You know, I think another one that we relate to all the time. And we don't see a destructive wake from it necessarily, but you know, the church continues to avoid other topics as well that are as relevant, you know, like gluttony, obesity and healthy living. And it's like, ah, fat pastor has a hard time standing up in the pulpit talking about how he's fat and so is the rest of the congregation. This one's okay. - Right, yeah, I call him church sins, right? Gluttony and gossip. I mean, it's like I'll pick on your sexual addiction, but leave me alone with my all you can eat buffet. And gossip, I mean, sometimes a prayer meeting is a very thinly disguised gossip meeting. That's all it is, right? - It's not gonna be disguised, come on. Hey, can I, for you, it just means like, hey, what's the dirt going on in your life, man? - Yeah, that's right, that's right. I wanna know. - We wanna pray for him. We'll pray for him, but what happened again? Yeah, I agree. We are terrible at, you know, exposing the sins of others and ignoring our own. It's so true. So let's say you're a leader in a church or a leader in an organization. How do you start a conversation about sex in a healthy way? How does that begin? What are some building blocks? - Yeah, I think like any healthy conversation and it starts small and it grows, you know? I think of, I'm gonna relate it on a personal level. It's like having a conversation with your kids, you know? The first time that you have a conversation with your kids about sex, hopefully it's in an environment or setting where your kids feel comfortable, it's one-on-one, it's a shorter conversation, it's an introduction. - Right. - But it's not the end of the conversation, it's a conversation that keeps going. And I think the same model can be approached to, you know, shepherding or leading a church. You know, it begins with small conversations and smaller circles and that conversation becomes more frequent, longer and with a broader audience. You know, so it starts with your church staff and your eldership and talking about it and getting honest and getting buy-in from key leaders and buy-in not so much as like you need their approval, but buy-in as they're getting comfortable with, hey, we're gonna talk about this. I've, you know, been charged with leading this church and as the pastor or the shepherd. And I'm gonna begin by setting that example with our eldership board and with our staff and we're gonna grow in comfort of this and then we're gonna take it to and but not leave it with, you know, our men's ministry and our women's ministries and then we're gonna talk about it more from the pulpit and, you know, it's that intentional crescendo of like where it becomes part of the DNA of the church. - Right, so if you wanna have a conversation, start with someone you know and trust, just maybe even have it in a one-on-one or senior pastors, senior leaders with your board or elders, just to broach that dialogue. I think that's really good advice. And I mean, I have preached on it before, we've talked about porn, we talk about affairs, we talk about sexual purity and we talk about struggles. I mean, you know, we talk even about same-sex attraction at our church and the reality is I think all of our orientations in one way or another don't always reflect God's intention for us because I don't think a guy's natural bent is toward monogamy, right? It's just not, at least mine isn't. That's not where my orientation naturally leads me. And I think the other thing you open up, Ryan, when you start the dialogue in your church is all of a sudden everybody goes, phew, it's not just me, wow. And when you go first as a leader, you give people permission to have the conversation that they don't know how to start. - Yeah, absolutely. And I think when everybody understands that this is a new part of who we are as a body of Christ and they realize that it's not a one-time talk, you know, like the old-school parent talk, like, hey, we're gonna talk about sex once and then we're done, you know, but as that gains rhythm or regularity in the conversation, not only from the pulpit but in other circles of leadership as well, then it's more than just a one-time relief. It's opening up an ongoing permission to make this a part of our spiritual development as a church. - Yeah, very true. So let's talk about some other aspects of what you do. Now you actually go to porn shows, right? Which is a little bit controversial, I think in some people's mind. But tell us about that ministry 'cause that's where you guys are in the trenches working with sex workers, right? - Yeah, we are. And again, it kind of goes back to the roots of the core DNA of who we are as a ministry and where we began. You know, the larger ministry umbrella for a triple X church is called fireproof ministries. It has nothing to do with Kirk Cameron and his merit was around a long time before that, just lesser known. I say all that to say, you know, we started out as a youth organization really with a passion to reach junior high and high school students that the church wasn't reaching to really connect with teens that weren't church whose parents weren't bringing them. And so evangelism has always been at the core of who we are. And so when this idea for triple X church came about, you know, it really went hand in hand for us. Like we found ourselves teaching the church a lot about sex, you know, especially the church kids, but we couldn't get away from like, hey, this is great, but it's not awesome yet because how do we make their an evangelistic component to who we are? If we're going to talk to the church about sex, we need to find a way to talk to the sex industry about God. And so more or less, you know, the XXXchurch.com branding came out of our passion for evangelism to the sex industry as much as it did trying to raise eyebrows and garner attention in the church world. 'Cause you would argue that that's not the most effective way to reach the church world. With that particular brand. - Yeah, that's very true. It's a great way to start controversy. - Yeah, that's all you want to do. - Yeah, but that's true. You would find that more naturally if you were looking for porn or if you were in the sex industry than if you were searching church websites for sure. So it started as a youth ministry. Let's take a little sidebar there. How do you think parents are doing in the dialogue with kids these days on sex? Have you seen an improvement or is it sort of the same old, same old? - I feel like it's the same old, same old. I feel like it's an uphill battle. And that, you know, I have three sons. I have their 11, 12 and 14. And so I can relate as a parent, you know, older these days than when my first began for sure. And parents, as you know, are busy. They're incredibly busy. And so they just faced the challenge of, you know, staying engaged in conversation with their children about meaningful topics. And, you know, oftentimes parents don't have this fully reconciled in their own lives. And so they find it even more difficult to talk to their children about sex and healthy sex and godly sexual lives and making that, just like in a church, they're making it on a regular part of their conversation in their homes. So, you know, parents are also technologically pretty oblivious. Like, we'd like to think that we're all masters of technology on our iPhones and computers. But, you know, the average parent really struggles to understand the technology and the power of it in the hands of their children. And so they're surprised oftentimes to find that their children are struggling with pornography and that they're hiding it. Or they're just totally not tuned in to do what apps are on their kids' phones or those kinds of things. And so I feel like it's still an uphill battle. You know, we launched a new initiative, education initiative to really help parents with that. It's called iparent.tv. - Okay. - It's a free resource that you can find. It's really not XXX branded at all. - We'll link to that in the show notes, by the way. If you're wondering, if you go online to leadlikeneverbefore.com, we'll make sure we have that link for parents. - Yeah, so I mean, it's a great free resource videos, short, quick videos and help articles to educate parents about how to parent in this digital age around the topics of sex and pornography and what apps are out there, what their kids are doing and to really be informed and to have that in their arsenal, so to speak, as parents to better equip them for those critical conversations. - Yeah, I mean, that's so good. My kids are a little bit older, they're 18 and 22. And I mean, I remember for us, it used to be easy. There was a dial-up computer in the living room, right in full view of the kitchen dining room. And I mean, basically, it'd be very bold to find anything you shouldn't find in those days and it took forever. And now that's just totally different. I mean, with Wi-Fi, broadband, everywhere, smartphones, portable devices. And yeah, a parent can say, I'm pretty savvy on my iPad, but at the end of the day, you have no clue what's really going on online. And the kids aren't gonna tell you unless you have that kind of open dialogue with them, right? - Yeah, and it's just a lot of work, let's be honest. Like three kids, they each have a digital device. If you're, especially at younger ages, is your release control or permission to them to be able to have some freedoms to make learning mistakes from. It's still a lot of work to hop on a regular basis and to see their apps and their browsing history and to have conversations and see what they're doing on social media, it's like, gosh, where's the time and the day for all of that? - Yeah, it's tough. And you know, the other thing when I've taught on technology and kids and parents and before, and I do a breakout on that at different conferences or churches, but you know, the one insight I sort of carry to parents is this. You've just got to help your kids grow up a lot faster. I mean, the things that a decade or two ago, they were exposed to at 15 or 16. They're now getting exposed to exactly like you said at eight. And at the end of the day, you know, definitely use some external controls, but it's internal values that really guide your decision as a mature person not to go down a road, right? Like, I could have an affair, but I'm not going to. I could go online, but I'm not going to. And I just think, you know, the hard stuff for the parents is, everybody's just got to grow up a lot faster in that area. And it's hard when you're 10 or 12 years old to make those kinds of decisions because you can't even see the consequences that are coming down the pipe for you as an adult later on. - Yeah, yeah, that's very true. So yeah, that's where it all began. And, you know, back to the outreach into the sex industry, you know, that began with just a conscious awareness that there was, we learned early on with this effort that there was these things called pornography conventions or shows, and back then, you know, 11 years ago, 11, 12 years ago when we started, there was a huge one in Las Vegas. And we thought, you know, hey, what better place to begin a conversation with the sex industry about God and to really start meeting people and to show up in a way that was unfamiliar to the sex industry. And that is, you know, stepping first with the love of Christ and not the condemnation or the judgment, you know, we, as leaders and Christians, try to balance grace and truth. And it's so much easier to lead with truth oftentimes than it is with grace. And so we just, we tried to take a different approach where so many examples of what we saw with Christians interacting with, quote unquote, the secular world was to lead with truth. Instead of being on the outside picketing, we decided to be on the inside loving. - Yeah. And so, you know, we didn't have the money, but we, you know, grabbed the credit card from one of our board of directors. You know, we've got board members. - Board's good for something, right? Give me your credit card. - Have your credit card, please. I think we'll get this money back to you. - We hope so. - So we hope so. Yeah, 10 grand later, you know, we rented a booth. We, you know, felt like we had to have a name that would help us get in. And that's, you know, part of where X, X, X church came from. You know, a tagline that said, the number one Christian porn site, you know, kind of, kind of a little bit misleading and also curious and interesting. You know, we had a banner, a leather couch, you know, a really funny, funny costume from the children's department. It took some bibles and Craig and, and a few other that, you know, leaders at the time and their wives, you know, they went and they attended and they went with the goal of just, just meeting people and having open entry level conversations about sex and God and begin a dialogue with the sex industry about who God is and the, the godly plan, God's, you know, architecture for sex and, and that he loves them, you know, he loves them right where they're at, no matter what they've done, just like he loves each one of us. And that approach over the years, you know, even to this week with, you know, a huge dialogue happening on our Facebook page with people who are familiar with our ministry, you know, just really creates an uncomfortable stirring in people to know that like, hey, it's challenging to say to somebody in the sex industry, God loves you right where you're at, you know, and then it's, is it even possible for somebody to love God following him with their lives and still be employed in the sex industry, you know, and that, that really rattles people. - But that's the heart of the gospel, isn't it? I mean, Jesus was scandalous with the people he hung out with and you look at most of us and we're in this hermetically sealed bubble, this subculture and I, I applaud what you're doing. I mean, I think we need more of that in the church and, wow, so do you see results? Like do you see people surrender their lives to Christ or, or get amazed by a message of grace? - Yeah, I mean, yes, we do. Absolutely, we have, you know, story after story over the years of men and women. But, you know, I can honestly say our focus has always been on relationships, not on outcomes. - Sure, yeah. - And so, you know, through that, you know, showing up, show after show, you know, this year we'll go to, I think, nine porn conventions worldwide, five here in the States, a couple in Canada, and then, you know, a couple in other locations. And one thing that's become incredibly powerful to see is how God has moved in that consistency, that the sex industry is super aware that, like, he's there, he's there, and the people to volunteer as the leaders that serve with us, and that there is a place of refuge and hope, that there's people there loving them, willing to journey with them, talk with them, pray with them, help them out of the sex industry as God leads them. And so, we've certainly seen that over the years from big name people to people who just work in the industry, you know, at little booths, you know, selling stuff, you know, I'll just leave it at stuff. - Yeah, we can leave it there. There might be some kids listening, absolutely. - Yeah. - Yeah, we've definitely seen what people would call results, but it's not a metrics that we focus on. - No, and I appreciate that. It is, at the end of the day, it's about a relationship, right? And so, you're building relationships, and I imagine you would see some of these people year after year after year, and kind of develop a friendship. - Yeah, we certainly do. And I think, you know, Craig's relationship with Ron Jeremy, that goes back to the very beginning, you know, that's a long-running relationship where I think both of those men have grown because of that relationship over time. But, you know, there's no one moment in time where it's like, hey, Ron, you know, chose Jesus, gave up his Jewish heritage, you know, put down his line of work and said, you know, hey, I'm all done. But, you know, if you watch the development of that relationship over the years, you see, you know, Ron growing, you see, you know, times where, you know, he's come to church with Craig and the spiritual conversations that they're having about faith and grace and God's goodness, and, you know, Ron's desire to have a more connected relationship with God. And so it's been beautiful to watch. - So I'm not familiar with that story. Ron Jeremy, somebody fairly prominent in the sex industry. - Yeah, I'll save you the Google search. - Okay, sorry. I'm like, I'm not sure who he is. - No, he's an iconic male figure in movies. I mean, I don't know all the current stats, but like, you know, hundreds of films, thousands of actresses. - So the Brad Pitta porn kind of thing? - Yeah. - Okay, gotcha. - You know, older. - Yeah, okay, I'm sure, I'm sure. - It's good looking. They're not known for necessarily his facial features. - Gotcha. - Gotcha. Okay, super helpful. Thanks, Ryan. - Yeah, there you go. I'm filling it in for you. - All right, that's good to know. You know what? And it's one of those things where, you know, just from where I sit as a pastor, I mean, porn is something I've certainly seen over time. It just, it hasn't owned me. Like I've seen it own so many friends and so many people. So I totally empathize. It's not that sexual temptation doesn't come. Of course it comes. But it's just, it's a struggle in different ways for everybody. And it just shows up differently in everybody's life. So totally appreciate that. So let me ask you, if you're, if somebody's listening to this podcast right now, they're struggling with porn. They're having an affair. They've got a sexual addiction. Or maybe even within marriage, you know, they just know their, their view of sex is just so not what it could be or what it should be. What do you do and where would you start? If you had a place for people to start, is there a universal path or a good first step people can take or does it really depend on the situation? - Oh, well, I think, think if people are really struggling and they don't have a person in their life to turn to, I think, you know, certainly I would recommend our website. There's a ton of great resources there that are probably, you know, at this point, after all the years, they're gonna find something there that to connect with, you know, as a starting place. You know, we certainly have starting place recommendations on there for people to begin to, to really way through what it is that they're struggling with, why, and to begin a road of conversation out of that. You know, whether it's a marriage series video series or accountability on their computers or how to begin conversation with their spouse or even getting into an accountability group and needing a beginning step where it can be a little bit anonymous in that sense of like, hey, I don't have to show up at church on a Tuesday night at 8 p.m. when only the people who struggle with sex are here, you know, for this small group that's hidden down in the basement, you know. - Right, use the back entrance, Dylan. - Yeah, use the back entrance and drive somebody else's car. (both laugh) Yeah, so there's a lot of great starting steps there that can be found through the website resources. - Okay, that's super helpful. You mentioned accountability because in a lot of the dialogues I have with guys, you know, accountability seems to be the key. Do you agree with that or you think there are other keys or what's helpful? What's sort of a turning point for a lot of people? What's accountability critical in this area? What do you think about that? - Yeah, certainly a critical component. I don't know that it's the end game, but I would say that it's a critical component, you know, for people. I think, you know, like we touched on earlier, the hardest part oftentimes is the initial conversation. - Sure. - And then the second hardest part is having those critical conversations before not after temptation or fall, you know, from the goals and the direction that you're trying to head with your life. So those two things are difficult and having, you know, accountability in your life. So many people see accountability as a negative thing. It's like, oh, I gotta confess when I'm lost it. Rather than seeing it as, you know, a really good thing to be open, you know, Craig wrote a great book about this concept of openness and giving a fresher look to accountability of, you know, really desiring to live a transparent life, you know, honestly with other people and striving to be who God's called us to be and seeing that as a positive, you know, so that if I have X3 watch on my computer and it sends out accountability reports, you know, rather than seeing those as something shameful, seeing those, you know, rather as, you know, a stimulant for ongoing conversation about what I'm doing online. - Great, what's that book called, Brian? We'll link to it again in the show notes. - Yeah, it's just called open. It's great. - It's great. Yeah, it's on the website too. - I haven't read that, I'll have to read it. No, you know, and I agree with you. I mean, let me just say as far as accountability goes, there's nothing like a transparent life. I mean, I've always said my assistant has access to my accounts, my wife has access to all of my accounts and there's so much freedom in being able to hand your phone or hand your device over to somebody and just say, have a look, right? I mean, it's great that way in terms of just helping, living that way, there's something very liberating about not really having any secrets. - Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, finding that in a quote-unquote, accountability partner, you know, in frame it however you want, but, you know, it's that open, those open relationships where you can fully be who you are, both good and in struggle and know that there's faithful people that are in your corner, they're cheering you on, that they're praying for you when you're down and, you know, they're celebrating with you when you've had victory and you're doing the same for somebody else. - Well, some great insights today, Ryan. I mean, you know, I think hopefully if this provokes or spawns a dialogue in the church or among more leaders, I think that'll be just tremendously helpful on the personal level, but also across the church from a kingdom perspective, I think that's great, what you're doing and this conversation has certainly helped. I hope some leaders who feel trapped are able to talk to somebody in person about it and also jump online at xxxchurch.com to find some of those resources. And then I think this has been super helpful for parents to maybe realize, you know what, I probably should have that conversation at six or seven or eight, I'm not gonna wait till they're 13 or 14, and you've got some help at, what is it, iparent.tv? - Yeah, that's it. - Yeah, okay, and we'll link to that in the notes as well. So, Ryan, thanks so much. Listen, the easiest way to get in touch with you if somebody wants to follow up. - Ryan, our YA-N at xxxchurch.com, just straightaway. - Cool, and if you want, it's triplexchurch.com. And Ryan, I can't thank you enough for being with us today. - Yeah, absolutely, thank you, Kerry. - Well, that was such a great interview with Ryan. And I like the fact that we didn't always see 100% same vantage point, I'm learning, I'm growing. I appreciated that about Ryan's perspective. I also thought that was an awesomely awkward moment when I clearly had no idea who Ron Jeremy was, only person in the world. But anyway, so there you go. If you want some resources, make sure you head on over to the show notes. It's just carrynewhough.com/episode14. You will find links directly to triplexchurch.com. Actually, if you want the direct URL, it's triplexchurch.com/get-help. Get-help. And if you are struggling with a sexual addiction or there's some issues you need to work on or there's a good friend that you want to refer help to, they are fabulous at helping out. Also, we talked about my interview with Perry Noble. Perry mentions his porn struggle briefly in episode two of the podcast. But if you have not heard Perry's interview from episode two, one of the most raw, honest, authentic conversations with the leader I've ever had. And you want to jump back and probably listen to that. Hey, next week, we're coming back with a brand new episode. I'm going to introduce you to somebody that you may never have heard of. His name is Dom Russo, incredible leader. Now, you know that this podcast is really going to be about people you've heard of and people you've never heard of. And Dom is one of those leaders I can't wait to introduce you to. And the thing I love about a guy like Dom is these are just like real life stories. This is the stuff that you deal with every day. It's normal. There's not like 100,000 people who attend his church, but he has seen some tremendous growth in the last couple of years. He's grown plateaued and dying church from about 300 in existing traditional church to about 802 years and has brilliantly used the past to change the future. The way he has navigated the history of that church to leverage it for the future is exceptional. You're going to love that interview. And then by way of preview, two weeks from now, very last podcast release of this year, 2014, you're going to hear from Jeff Henderson. He is the guy behind Preaching Rocket and also the lead pastor of Gwynette Church, one of the North Point campuses in Atlanta. And he is a communication expert and is going to tell you how to improve your communication and your preaching if you're a preacher for 2015. Incredible tips from Jeff and incredible insight. You don't want to miss that. And then we're kicking off the brand new year with an episode featuring a guy by the name of Josh Gagnon. And I just did this interview with Josh very recently. It's fascinating. He is growing a multi-campus church. It's growing exponentially, several thousand people now, seven years into its history and of all places New England. And talk about challenging, 'cause I hear so many church leaders once and while it slips out of me too, it's so hard to grow a church here or whatever. All your excuses are gone. Don't listen, it's dangerous. It's a fascinating story. If you want to really be challenged and inspired, you gotta hear Josh. We're gonna kick off 2015 with him. Best way to never miss an episode is to make sure you subscribe. You can do that for free on iTunes. Just hit the subscribe button. You can also do it on TuneInRadio and on Stitcher. So make sure whatever your favorite platform is that you've subscribed. And thank you to everybody who continues to leave ratings and reviews, especially in iTunes. Really helps get the podcast in front of other leaders. We have some really exciting stuff. So we'll talk to you as Christmas gets closer back next week with a brand new episode and off to the party. Have a wonderful day. Thanks for listening and I hope this helps you lead like never before. (upbeat music) - You've been listening to the Carrey Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (gentle music)