The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 013: The Emptiness of Success, the Promise of Evangelism and the Multi-ethnic Church — An Interview With Derwin Gray
[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the Carey Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal to help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now, your host, Carey Newhoff. Well, hello, everybody. And welcome to episode 13 of the podcast. My name is Carey Newhoff. It's so good to be together again this week. And the goal is to help you lead like never before. Hey, the guest today in episode 13 is a guy named Derwin Gray. He is a former NFL player, did really well in the NFL, leads one of the fastest growing churches in the United States. He is a best-selling author, and he's an all-round great guy. And Derwin's going to talk to us about the emptiness of success, and he's going to talk to us about how he grew his church, and how he's doing something that's still actually very unique, which is he's actually growing a multi-ethnic, multi-generational church in Charlotte, North Carolina. So you're going to really, I think, appreciate what Derwin has to say. And before we get to Derwin, a couple of things I just want to share with you. Number one, thanks to everybody who made our first-ever podcast contest so amazing. It was great. From episode 7 through 11, we ran a contest. And I'm going to tell you who the winner is, the grand prize winner in just a moment. But you made it so awesome. So the idea of the contest was this, that we were giving away a grand prize of admission to the Orange Conference 2015 and Coffee Backstage with John Acuff and I. And then there were weekly prizes, which is a number of my books, one of John Acuff's books, and so on and so forth. But your ballot for this contest was actually a comment on my blog. So I blog, my website, is karaenuhoff.com. And just so you know, anytime you want the show notes for any episode, it's just karaenuhoff.com/episode, whatever episode you happen to be listening to. So for all of those episodes, episode 7 through 11, people went on to the show notes. And the deal was this. You had to leave a comment that actually answered a question. And the comments added so much value. So for example, John Acuff talked about, or Pete Wilson actually talked about overcoming personal discouragement in episode 11. And a lot of you left comments about how you overcame that or Ted Cunningham, for example, in episode seven, talked about delayed adolescence and why so many millennials are failing to launch into life. You left super helpful comments on that episode and all the other episodes in which the podcast ran. And so not only did you enter, but you helped everybody lead better. So I really like the way that work. We're probably gonna do something like that again, but to all of you who left comments, and there were well over 100 over the episodes, 'cause I mean, it's not just, hey, you know, pick me. You actually had to think about that and you did a great job. Just thank you. You really gave me some fresh ideas. I know you gave other listeners and readers fresh ideas. So thank you. And now it's time for the big announcement. Without further ado, the grand prize winner of Admission to the Orange Conference 2015 and Coffee Backstage with John Acuff and me is Joe Robodow. Joe is a frequent commenter on the blog. He is a church planter. He is a young leader and Joe, congratulations. We're really looking forward to hanging out with you at Orange Conference 2015. That's at the end of April in Atlanta, Georgia. And I am so excited to be able to hang out with you and get to know you a little bit better. And just thanks for everything you've done. And thank you to all of you who entered. And I think we're gonna do this again. We'll do something fun next year on the podcast. So I just wanna thank all of you who made it so awesome. Also a quick shout out to Kenny and Elle Campbell. They have a brand new podcast, They're Friends of Mine, debuted at number one on iTunes, which you helped this podcast do a few months ago when we launched. Their new podcast is Youth Ministry Answers. And it's a great podcast. And if you're in student ministry, you don't wanna miss it. Even if you're a senior leader, man, you need to be on top of what's happening today and student ministry really is the canary in the coal mine. You wanna get to know that. So just search it out on iTunes. It's called Youth Ministry Answers. Kenny and Elle Campbell, super fun couple, really smart. And then today's podcast is brought to you by the Orange Conference 2015. We've got a number of keynote speakers at that conference that's happening the last week of April in Atlanta, Georgia. John Acuff, Reggie Joyner, Perry Noble, Judd Wilhide, Donald Miller, Jeff Henderson, many of whom you'll hear on this podcast, by the way. And I also run the senior leaders track there. It's like a VIP thing for senior leaders. Brian Dodd called last year's senior leader track, the best senior leadership conference he's ever attended. And that's high praise coming from Brian. So if you're a senior leader or if you're just a church leader or ministry leader who's passionate about the next generation, do not miss the Orange Conference. Just go to the orangeconference.com. And if you go there, right after this episode is released, you can still get the best rates, but that's gonna disappear soon on December 11th. So make sure you drop by the orangeconference.com. So now on to today's guest, Derwin Gray, best-selling author, former NFL player played several seasons with the Indianapolis Colts. Fast-growing church. We recorded this interview several months ago, but Derwin and his team just moved into a brand new building just a couple of weeks ago. We're so excited for them. And I think you're gonna love his story. I think you're gonna love his heart. And without further ado, here is Derwin Gray. Well, I am so excited to have my friend Derwin Gray on the podcast today. Derwin, welcome. - Hey, glad to be here with you, friend. - Hey, man, we've gotten to know each other over the last couple of years. And it's been a lot of fun. One of the things I find most fascinating is your story. You've just got an incredible story. Tell us a little bit about your life and how you grew up and you played pro football. You're like the only NFL player I've ever had on the podcast, which is fun. And then how you became a Christian and got into ministry is just a fascinating story to Derwin. - Yeah, well, well, before I jump into that, and I've shared this with you personally, is you are one of the most kind people that I have ever met. I mean, you are, you're like a Barnabas, you know, a son of encouragement. And the more I grow in the Lord, the less and less I become impressed with gifts, and the more and more I'm impressed with character. And so you impressed me because I just see the fruit of the spirit. And so thank you for that example. I think, I don't know what it's like in Canada, other than cold, but I think that even as American church leaders, we value gifting and bravado and not humility and character. And so thank you. - Oh, Derwin, that's very gracious and very kind of youth. Thank you. And we didn't plan that out. You totally surprised me. You completely surprised me with that. Thank you. That's how I found me, man. So, but you know, it's one of these things. I didn't grow up in the church. I was born in San Antonio, Texas, way back in 1971. My mom was, yeah. My mom was 16 when she was pregnant with me. My dad was 17. And both of them were teenagers and children trying to raise a child. They both dealt with systemic brokenness and pain and addiction issues. And so my grandmother primarily raised me. I lived in a poverty-stricken drug-riddled, violent context. But here's the thing though, when you grow up that way, you don't know it. That's normal, right? That's normal life. And so, didn't attend church. We didn't eat meals together. We didn't pray together. At about age 13, I recognized really quickly that people were unreliable, that people will hurt you, that people will let you down. So, I became an adult early. I mean, probably by the time I was 11, I was grown. I mean, you had to be to survive where I was at. And so, I quickly realized that my ticket out of where I was was football. And the state of Texas, football is serious. And so, I committed to learning the art and the skill of playing. My eighth grade football coach told me I could get a scholarship. And I said, "Well, what kind of ship is a scholarship?" My, "What is it?" "No, what is that?" That's great. And he said, "Well, if you play football good enough, colleges will pay for your education." So, you get your education free. And you can play ball. So, no man in my family up until that point over the age of 20 had graduated high school or college. Wow. So, at that moment, though I couldn't say these words, football became my God. It's where I had derived my identity, my significance, and my mission from. And so, played for a great high school coach, who was a Christian. I didn't know it. I just know I wanted to be like him. Right. One, state championship, accepted a football scholarship to Brigham Young University. So, you got a black urban kid going to the mountains of Provo, Utah, in a overwhelmingly white Mormon context. Wow. Yeah, it was a good experience, because it's hard to get in trouble at a Mormon school. You have to really, you have to really strategize for it. You do, you do. I was successful, however, you know. Ended up meeting my wife. Second semester, my freshman year, got married in college. Went on to be nominated as one of the 24 best players to ever play at BYU. So, had a really good career there. Then, I got drafted by the Colts. I was a 90-second selection in the 1993 NFL Draft. So, I was one of the 100 best players of that draft. Man. Now, that you look back, I was like, "Dang, that man, I could ball. I was pretty good." So, anyway, my first year was horrible. It was a disaster. It was like, so, I waited my whole life to get to the NFL, to get money, to get a career, and it sucks. Now, how so, why was it horrible? I'm not a sports guy. So, I mean, I totally, I watched a bit of football, but I'm one of those nerds that just tell me about it. Here's why it was horrible. The game wasn't horrible. What was horrible is, I had been sold a bag of lies that said, "If you make money, if you become famous, you'll be happy." Okay. And I wasn't. Not true. No. No. And the NFL was not anything like I expected. I mean, that first year, the most racism I ever experienced in my entire life was my first year in the NFL with the Colts. You're kidding me. Okay, that surprises me. My black teammates, several of them, were racist towards me because my wife was white. Really? Yeah. Wow. And so, that first year was just tough. Second year got better. I broke the starting lineup, had some good games. Third year, I'm a team captain. It's going great. Nominated for the Pro Bowl because of my special teams. Wow. But that third year, you know, I'm like, I'm like 24, 25 and I'm having an existential crisis going. So this is as good as it gets. Even if I play 10 years, the rest of my life is downhill because what can compare to being a celebrity? No kidding. And that frightened me. So ultimately, through the persistence, love and grace of a teammate made of mine, his name was Steve Grant, but his nickname was The Naked Preachers. Because after practice, he'd wrap a towel around his waist, get his Bible and share Christ with my teammates and me being a nun Christian. I just thought it was weird. Yeah, so get this. Okay, everybody's in the locker room. I love this part of your story. Everybody's in the locker room. This guy, naked preacher, wraps towel around him and literally walks around and not very socially aware starts, talking to people about Jesus, right? Yeah, well, and the thing is, is Steve was very socially aware. Like, he wasn't out of context. He wasn't an annoyance. I mean, he's the greatest evangelist that I know because he would build relationship based on the credibility of his life. Gotcha. And therefore that opened up doors for conversation. And so what I would notice is when he was talking to my teammates, he would do this thing that he would go. "Do you know Jesus?" And in my mind, I'm like, "Do you know you're half naked?" (laughing) You know? And so over a five year process of him repeatedly sharing the good news of God's grace, repeatedly sharing the good news of God's love. On August 2nd, 1997, I eventually came to faith and a lot of people come to faith at the bottom of life. Yeah. I came to faith at the top of life because I got to the mountaintop and it scared me that this was it. Money couldn't bring me forgiveness. Money couldn't bring me security. Money couldn't bring me self-awareness. Money could not help me love my wife the way she deserved to be loved. The NFL stands for not for long. And it is a ruthless performance based environment. Fans, boo you based on your performance or cheer for you based on your performance. And at the end of the day, you know you're a prostitute. At the end of the day, you know people don't love you and no strings attached. Right. There's no one to do to love. And that's what I have. See, but here's what they know. That's what I wanted. Every human being comes out of their mother's womb wanting someone to love them, period. And there's only one person who can do that in his name is Jesus. And when I heard that good news through five years, on August 2nd, 1997, in a smart dorm room in Anderson, Indiana, and I called my wife from training camp with the Colts. And I said, I want to be more committed to you and I want to be more committed to Jesus. And the best way I can describe it is man, I knew that I was loved. Like, forget all the religious talk. I knew that the cross was a symbol of God saying, Derwin, I seen it all. Your darkness, your ugliness. And on the cross, it's been nailed to Jesus and all of his love and grace and mercy and all of who he is is nailed to you. You are new, you are my son. I studied your game field called life. You're a sinner, but my grace is greater than your sin. And at that moment, I fell head over hills and love with Jesus and has only grown in my love for him, not based on me, but based on knowing him better, it's made me love him more. - That's a powerful story, Derwin. And I'm so glad to get that background from you as we head into some of the conversation. And you know, it's interesting. I think you and I had very different, but maybe in some small way parallel experiences. In my early 20s, I started out life as a lawyer. That's what I wanted to do, got into my dream law school. Articold in downtown Toronto after I finished law school was with a great firm right off Bay Street, which is the Canadian Wall Street. And I saw early on when I was, oh, how old would I have been, 25, 26. I saw that the top was empty. I mean, if this is as good as it gets, you're making a lot of money. There's so many people who didn't love their wives, didn't love their jobs. And you realize, wow, this is as good as it gets. I'm not sure I want that. And around that time, pursue to call into ministry and so on. - Yeah, it's totally. - And you and I both are not saying that money and material things are evil. - No, no, no, no, not. - Like, you know, and I think the Apostle Paul, through the Holy Spirit's inspiration, sums it up. We have worshiped the creative instead of the uncreated creator. We take the blessings of God and worship them. And thus those blessings become a curse because they cannot satisfy it because they're created. Only the uncreated creator can satisfy. Then those blessings become instruments of leveraging His grace for the world. - Yeah. Well, and I think that can chase you throughout life. And I always go back to that year in law that I spent before I went into seminary. And 'cause I think there's something that drives a lot of us leaders, and this is a leadership podcast, right? That says, hey, when my church gets to this size, I'm gonna be satisfied. When we had that other campus, when I get the right team in place. And at the end of the day, that is an empty, empty, empty chase. Because you can have one of the biggest churches in the country or the biggest church in your community or whatever you're chasing, the number one fill in the blank, and you're still like, hmm, is that it? - Can I add this is that if you're a leader watching this and you're chasing a number or a status, let me just warn you. You're gonna become a tyrant, and you're gonna hurt a lot of people and you're gonna damage the name of Jesus. So I know in the United States, the Evangelical Landscape Rewards, the three B's, budget building and butts in the seats of the building. And with book advances and conference honorariums and salaries, you can become a spiritual whore. And you will damage the name of Jesus, you'll hurt your family, you'll hurt your congregation. The only thing we should chase is Jesus. Do I want transformation church to reach as many people as possible? Yes, but my joy is not derived from a weekend number or making it an outreach magazine. Our first year in existence, which doesn't happen, by percentage, we were the second fastest growing church in America, and we are a multi-ethnic church, which means you shouldn't grow. But after we made outreach magazine for several years, guess what? - What? - I'm still a Derwin. - Yeah. - I'm still a parent, I'm still a husband, I'm still a father, I'm still a pastor. - And your kids are never impressed by your stats, are they? - Oh gosh, heck no, and so, as Philippians 2 says, I mean, the same mind, it's in Christ Jesus. Like man, I want every church that upholds name of Jesus to grow explosively, and I want the whole world to know Jesus. But the size of my church and the books that I write and the conferences I speak in are not my joy, they're not my identity, I'll go cut grass tomorrow if God tells me that's how I can glorify him the most. And I think that even as leaders, like I don't know what it's like in Canada, but in America, we're addicted to the stupid thing called success. Having a big church doesn't mean you're successful, it just may mean you live in an area where there's a lot of people. - Yeah, and we're not that different. I mean, I always say it translates about 90% north of the border, and we put our little spin on it here and there at an A at the end of a sentence from time to time, but no, I think we're caught up in the North American dream, the Western dream of more, bigger, better, and it's tempting. Now, Derwin, in terms of your life, you've kind of seen a lot of success, and you just passed your 40th birthday, but you've had a lot of success. I mean, you played pro ball in the NFL for five seasons. You-- - Six years, six years. - Six years, there you go, there you go. That's six years more than me, man, I can tell you that. So for six years, you played pro ball, and then a lot of people know you from being the evangelism linebacker. It's funny, after I met you, it's like-- - That's awesome. - That's who that is. That was so much fun, it still makes me laugh. And then you planted Transformation Church four years ago now in 2010, quickly became the second fastest growing church in America. I've shown up on Outreach's top 100 list several times in the last few years. You're multi-campus, you have thousands of people attending now, and you've written a book that's doing incredibly well. You've written a couple of books, but Limitless Life is still on the bestseller list a year after its release. And I mean, how do you stay grounded in the midst of that? Because not everybody listening to this podcast, not all the leaders are like, oh, we're trying to get ahead, some are on top. And like, how do you stay grounded in the midst of all that? - I think the question is, how do you not stay grounded when you realize that all of who you are is a gift and it's from Christ? I mean, think about it. He shed his blood to redeem me. - Yeah. - It is his spirit, and I'm a temple of the Holy Spirit that as well as me, gifts me and empowers me. My words flow from his word. What is there to boast about? Like, what is there not to be, I mean, like, one of the things that irks me is particularly pastoral arrogance, like really? Why? You know, Jesus said, hey, if you really wanna be great, be a servant, wrap a towel around your waist and serve people. Now, to be fair, I've been signing autographs since I'm 17 years old. - Sure. - So I've tasted what success is outside of Christ. I made a lot of money in my early 20s. And I've seen that it was bankrupt. I've seen, in the words of Solomon, that it's empty. And so I've got an advantage over somebody who may have never experienced success. You have a gift, boom, your church explodes, and you think that you're a quote unquote, the man. Well, I've been the man without the God-man, and it's empty, it's void, it's useless. And so, what is there to boast about when all of who I am is a gift? I wanna boast about Jesus, you know? And I believe that humility is not denying that you're gifted, humility is pointing people to the one who gave you the gift to say, look to him. I'm a compulsive stutterrer. I didn't really learn how to speak coherently 'til I was 26 years old when I came to Jesus. So what can I boast about me being able to talk when it was until he touched my tongue that I could talk? So, plus, if I ever was ungrounded, if that's a word, we just made it up. - Yeah, we did. - My wife is a former javelin thrower. She was 18th in the nation her senior year at BYU. That woman would hurt me if I ever began to even think I was above and beyond quote unquote what I thought I should be. I wanna spend my days making much of Christ. You know, I think you keyed in on an important principle too. You need to have people around you to keep you grounded. My family doesn't let me get away with anything which some days frustrates me and sometimes is the very best gift God has given me. I'm married to a very, very capable woman who keeps me honest and calls me on stuff. And you know, the other thing I find too for leaders listening is just having that little circle of people around you who aren't impressed by you is so important. - Well, and to have them on your staff. - Yes. - If you have people around you on your staff who are dependent upon you for their financial well-being, they will not tell you about your blind spots. - That's a good point. - Because if they did and you recognize your blind spots and something happened where you had to leave ministry that means their paycheck is gone. I will never hire anyone on staff ever if they're dependent upon Durwin Gray for their paycheck because if they are, they won't tell Durwin Gray when he has a blind spot. And secondly, I won't hire anybody who is so impressed with me that they won't be honest with me. And one of the benefits of playing in the NFL is you watch game film and everybody sees you make a mistake. And that's the kind of environment we wanna have on staff is listen, I ain't Jesus. Of course I'm gonna make mistakes and I want people around us who are not impressed with me or dependent upon me, then that way we can have a healthy environment that encourages each other to gospel integrity. Like I'm very, very passionate about gospel integrity. I wanna finish this race well. Hold in my wife's hand at 90. What a big old Afro in the front of my hair missing. What a huge gut. And I want folks to say, you know what? He was a decent preacher, but let me tell you about the 99% of his life off the stage in relationship. I want people to say, you know what? Durwin Gray treated every person like Jesus actually died for them. I want people to say, you know what? Durwin Gray treated people who couldn't do anything for him like royalty. - So let's talk about that a little bit more. When you've got a staff team and some people are solo staff and all that, you know, substitute in your volunteers or whatever. But I've got paid staff around me. What are some of the things you would do, Durwin, as a leader, to try to make sure that the feedback circle stays honest and stays true with your elder board, with your key staff and with key volunteers? How do you make sure you stay approachable, particularly when you're successful? - I think the first thing is, you have people around you of wisdom and maturity. When we planted Transformation Church, it was my wife and her best friend Angela and then Tim Jordan came on board and then Pastor Paul, Alan came on board and both of those men are the same age as my father. - So they're not impressed with you. - No, no, they've been around the block a few times. And so to have people around you who have life experience, who are not dazzled by something that's new, but dazzled by something that's true. And people of integrity, you know, one of my seminary professors told me years ago, pursue integrity and maturity over gifting. And so when we look to leadership, we have five Cs and the first one is character. What I mean by character, I mean the fruit of the spirit, people of gospel, integrity. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, create an environment where dialogue and approach abilities possible. You know, like right now, I'm taking a break from writing my book. - Okay. - A thousand words a day, for 50 days, I'll have my 50,000 word book done, okay. After service, I'm outside to shake hands, to high fives. And you know what? Sometimes there's some awkward conversations where people don't recognize, this is a time that I'm shaking hands, high fiving, glad you're here, give me a hug, and they want to have an in-depth conversation. Sometimes it gets awkward, but you know what? I would rather have that than to be unapproachable. Thirdly, Christians say, hey, we don't want to poll, we don't want to pastor, we want to be taught and led by a plurality of leaders. Yet, everybody thinks I do everything. They ask me about heat and lighting. I'm like, listen, I am not the only pastor on staff at Transformation Church. I have a lane that I stay in, and we have others too. I can't do everybody's counseling. If I did, I would wear out. Secondly, I would take away from others' rolling. And so, being approachable, and also, just not acting like a mafia Don or a celebrity. I say this with humility and love, but there's some conferences where I go to, and I see these pastors, and I'm going, are you serious right now? Like, are you really, really serious right now? Some of them, I want to put on my lap and spank them with my belt. - All right, there's a quotable for you. There's a quotable for you. - Yeah, you know what? But you're right, you should always be willing to wash your own car, cut your own grass, and be a servant, and help other people as well. I think that's a really, really good counsel. Now, I want to drill down a little bit on Transformation Church, 'cause you planted it almost five years ago now. And it is a multi-ethnic, multi-generational, mission-shaped community. That's how you describe it. Tell us a little bit about that. And why do you think churches aren't just automatically multi-ethnic, multi-generational? (laughs) - Well, so in 1999, God in His grace and sovereignty decided to take this stutterer and give Him a platform to preach the gospel. And as I traveled around the United States, I noticed very quickly that the church of Jesus Christ was much different than the nightclub. The nightclub had Asians and Latinos and Black people and White people and all kinds of people shaking their booties and dancing. - Yeah. - But then when I would go to the club, I mean, then when I would go to the church, it was all white or all Black. And I was like, wait a second, my football team with the coats was diverse. The neighborhood in high school I went to was diverse. Wow, everything in America seems to be diverse when it's possible, but the church is not diverse. And as I read the Bible, I said, okay, hold on. The new heavens, new earth is ethnically diverse. - Yes. - There's no white section, Black session, Latino set. I mean, is this one? Then I seen the Apostle Paul planted churches that were for Jews and Gentiles. Like he did not go to a Greco-Roman city and planted church for Arabs, church for Africans, church for Jews. He planted churches for all kinds of people. When he says, I become all things all men and one may be saved. He's talking about creating multi-ethnic churches. The Apostle Paul hands down planted churches that were ethnically diverse. The first church council was about ethnically diverse churches. - Right, it was. - So I began to read those things and I said, why is the American church so segregated? Right now, 13% of evangelical churches are multi-ethnic, meaning- - Just 13%. - Less than, yeah, meaning that less than 80% of one ethnic group comprises the entire church. When it's at 20, then you can start to have change and diversity and so forth. The Catholic church is at about 26%. So the issue is not percentage. The issue is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not just you go to heaven when you die. It's about heaven invading earth and creating a heavenly community on earth of different people coming together in the gospel. - Yes. - So why don't we do that? - Here's why. Because we're individualistic, we're fearful, we're mistrustful and we're still living in the legacy of slavery. However, we're still doing what humanity's done from day one. Label, segregate and separate and demonize. If you don't believe me, whenever there's a racial issue in America, white evangelicals and black evangelical see things differently and so do Asian evangelicals. - Sure. - Latinos and so until we come together as one, we're gonna continue to be a joke in the world. - Yeah. - How can we speak to God loves everybody when we're more segregated than the nightclub? So in about 2004, God moved on my heart, my wife's heart. It is time to plan a church. Don't criticize, create. And so we began this journey to embark to plant transformation church that would be a church that exalts Jesus by preaching the gospel, a gospel that justifies and sanctifies and forgives and makes new life, but creates, as Ephesians 2.15 says, a kina, a one new people. When Jesus came and resurrected, there was a new humanity on earth called the church, which is a multi-colored people coming together in Christ. And so we were told it would never work. - Right. - You know, people don't like the same music, da, da, da, da, da. And we said, well, we're gonna be the pioneers to do it. And we've done it and it's happening. We're continuing to grow, we're having influence. And this is why I'm writing my next book, High Definition Leadership Leading the Church into a multi-colored world is this. By 2050, America's gonna be vastly different. - Yes. - For the first time in US history, in public schools, white people are the minority. My children's children will have no idea what a homogeneous church is. - Wow. - So if leaders do not begin to make the changes now, they're going to be like blackberry smartphones in 2050. Irrelevant and not even there. - You know, it's a really good point. And in that way, I think there is a difference between Canada and the US. Canada, I think, is a precursor of the US a decade or two down the road, whether people like that or not. But go to Toronto, Vancouver today. And the visible minority, as people say, is actually the majority. And Caucasians, like myself, we're a minority in certain cities. Now, not where I live in our north of Toronto, but that is coming and it is changing. - And so why do you think more churches, like what do you have to do to become more multi-ethnic, more multi-generational? What are some of the keys in that, Derwin? - Well, before I address that, let me talk about why homogeneous churches don't want to change. - Okay. - When you look at conferences, you speak at them, I speak at them, who's on the stage? - Yeah. - Successful pastors of homogeneous churches. - Yes. - So when pastors sit in a congregation and listen to the successful homogeneous pastors, they become their offspring and try to replicate what those they see as successful are doing. - Right. - The homogeneous unit principle, Badano McGovern was used in India. And it said in India, because there is a caste, you have to reach certain groups evangelistically, but then bring them into the church multi-ethnically. Well, Americans took that and made a business out of it and said, "Listen, the church can grow faster "if you reach people who look alike, "think alike, same social economic status." So therefore, that has permeated the Christian landscape. So when you look at the authors who write books, who speak at conferences, they are still operating in a paradigm that they don't even know that it's already died. - Yeah, the only place that's really alive is in the church, right? - Yeah, dead man walking. When a tsunami hits, the wave goes back off the beach. Well, in America, the wave has gone back off the beach. And the models that are working now for homogeneous churches that everybody's still continuing to do will not work. And so what's gonna happen, it's gonna look intentionally racist from a black church perspective, white church perspective, Asian church perspective. It's gonna look like you're being intentional about this. And so we have to make changes now. So how do we make the changes? What are the big things? The first thing is this, if you don't believe this theologically, that this is God's heartbeat, you will give up because it's too hard. It is hard work, it doesn't happen automatically, does it? - It's emotionally hard work. I've had pastors gang up on me at church planning events, predominantly white saying, you're wrong. There's nothing wrong with homogeneous churches, you're wrong. I've had other Christians go, why are we worried about race? And I'd go, have you read the Bible? You and Gentile? - Yep. - It's emotionally hard. You take all kinds of criticisms and you take all kinds of shots and Christians don't even understand because they've been raised on a individualistic, reductionistic gospel that says, Jesus died for me, I go to heaven when I die. Now I'm like Burger King, I get it my way. No, Jesus bought the church to embody his kingdom on earth, which is not a segregated kingdom. It's a kingdom of Jew and Gentile who make a whole new humanity called Kynos. That's why the Apostle Paul says in Colossians 3, 10, here there is not Greek or Jew. - Right. - There's not circumcised, uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, free or slave, Christ is in all, why? Because they were a multi-ethnic church arguing about socioeconomic and class distinction and Jesus goes, no, there's a new class of people, a new race of people, a new gospel people call the church, which is very diverse. - Wow. - And so that's the first thing. The second thing, and I say this primarily to my white pastor friends, getting a black guy to sing in an all white church is not being multi-ethnic. Let me say this even more strongly, it's very offensive. - Okay. - Black people have entertained white folks in this country for a long time. - Yep. - We can do more than play music. We can talk theology, ecclesiology, missiology, for goodness sakes. I graduated magna cum laude with my MDiv and I'm working on a doctorate. - Wow. - I am sick and tired of hearing my white friends go, "Wow, you're so theologically correct." I'm like, you do know, you do know Augustine was from Africa, right? And Tertillion. - Right. - And a lot of the first great theologians. And so-- - So you're talking about actually putting people with different ethnic backgrounds into senior leadership directly. Not token leadership, not just on the platform here. Host three minutes and then get off the stage. - Yes, but before you can do that, right? Before you can plan a multi-ethnic church, you need to live a multi-ethnic life. - Yeah, good. - A lot of my friends go, "Well, I don't know who to call." And I go, "Because you don't have multi-ethnic relationships." When we just recently did a series at Transformation Church called Big Questions, Big Answers. It was an apologetic series that we did. And my people that I brought in, I brought in two former Pakistani Muslims, a Caucasian guy, and I preached as well. And so, and a Chinese guy. I'm able to pick up the phone and call all kinds of people because I've lived a multi-ethnic life. - Maybe that's where it starts, really, for a lot of people. It's kind of the argument about, "Well, why aren't any un-church people coming to our church?" The answer is, "How many un-church people do you know?" And the answer for a lot of people in Christian circles is not really anybody. You know, we're not friends. They're not over at our house. And so, I think that's a really good challenge, Derwin. - Yeah, yeah. - And so, it's intentional, executive leadership. Okay, and then let me make this caveat too. In the black church, I don't even think there's a conversation about even going multi-ethnic. At least in the white church, there's conversation and there's some mistakes. So, I think it's gonna take the black church some time as well. I don't have any independent research to back that up rather than just some anecdotal conversations. Okay, and then the third thing is music. - Right. - First of all, you're never gonna get music perfect. The style, the genre, but what you can do is teach people how to serve each other through different musical genres. - So, what does that look like at Transformation Church? 'Cause that would be an area where music is very, very different. - Yeah, and this is what we've decided to do. - Okay. - We have decided to take majority culture songs, which are white songs, you know, Passion, Hillsong, and add R&B flavor to it with percussions. - Okay. - So, white people will go, "I know that song." Blacks and Latinos will go, "Oh, I feel that song." And so, what we've done is we've taken a look at people like Prince, a people like Justin Timberlake, people like Jay-Z. Why is it that you can go to a Prince, Jay-Z, Justin Timberlake concert, and it'd be multi-ethnic? How can Justin Timberlake, a white boy, sound black? So, what we've done is we've taught our black singers to be able to sound white. Our white singers to be able to sound black, Latino and Asian to add what they do, and we say we do this because this is a greater reflection of God's kingdom, bring all of who you are so that you can see all of who God is through all of us. - Well, and that sounds a little bit more like top 40 radio today, and the music that people are actually listening to. It does not primarily, as Rich Birch and other guest on this podcast has said, the style of music that we do is not the kind of music that people actually listen to anymore. - Yeah, and Ed, it has to be theologically dense and theologically rich. I am a theology nerd, but I've just learned to talk in such a way that it's common that my kids can understand. Music that's Christ-exalting, but also take a cue from Justin Timberlake and Prince and then go, how can they have such diverse groups of people? But then challenge, challenge the Christian community. I love passion, man, I grew up on that music and I'm going, but why is it all just white kids pretty much? Like, I just couldn't do that. - Right. - I'm not being critical and I'm thankful that LaCray went. But man, what would it look like if those audiences at Hillsong and then you go to the black musicians, this is equally as segregated, when are we going to stop dividing ourselves and put in the prayer-soaked, emotional weight of sin? God, I want to reflect Revelation chapter five versus 1912, where every nation tribe and tongue, you know? And so musically is the third piece and then fourthly is, and I say this with the utmost humility, we don't understand the gospel narrative, the gospel narrative starts in eternity, creation, fall, redemption with Israel. The gospel is about a king named Jesus, a kingdom on earth through a people. The good news is there's a God who seats you into heavenlies with him, who saves you by grace, who makes you alive by grace, to create his community on earth, to be a foretaste of that glorious day. And we have to get over. Yeah, invite your friends to church and we'll just continue to get bigger, bigger crowds. We tell folks to invite, but Sunday morning is not the end all. - Right. - We are addicted to Sunday morning. - Mm-hmm. - We need to be addicted to creating a gospel community and the gospel community I read about in the Bible is Jew and Gentile, every nation tribe and tongue. Now, if you don't live around diversity, you can't do that. It's probably more social economics. - Yeah, I think that's a good word because we're in a community that frankly, just isn't that diverse. My philosophy has always been, your church should be as diverse as your community. Not significantly more, not significantly less. But I think one of the other real barriers, and I think that's where we've seen, I mean, we have some ethnic diversity at Kinexis based on our community, but there is tremendous socioeconomic diversity. We have people on welfare, and we have people who could stop working tomorrow and never have to worry about money again, all worshiping in the same place. And a good way to tell that is just look at the parking lot. - Well, and then probably the next step is integrating the person in the Rolls Royce and the person who rides the bus into a small group and experience a dinner at one another's house, you know. - That's a good word. - Let me add one more caveat is, I still believe that you need a first generation immigrant church. Wherever you're coming from to the West, the first generation still speaks that language. But after the first generation, the second gen is acclimated. And so we have to move beyond first gen to second gen and say, how do we become a part of the whole versus, we're gonna keep our language, we're gonna keep our culture. Because when people do that, they rob the rest of the body of Christ of their uniqueness. - I can't be all that I can be. This past week, I received an email from a believer in India named Paul Singh. And he just talked about the racial discrimination that Indians in America go through, who work at convenience stores. And so we want everybody to bring all of who they are. Don't leave who you are at the door. Bring the richness of who you are. That's how we see the beauty of God. So back to the gospel. I think we gotta go back to the New Testament, stop preaching, self-help messages, and preach that God is creating a gospel community of grace about him for his glory. And yeah, that's what I'm on mission. - You know what, this is super helpful, Derwin, because I think you've helped me see, 'cause we've had conversations before. We have a mutual friend in Darren Chesky, who is a white preacher building a multi-ethnic, multi-generational church in Indianapolis. - Way before us, too. - And doing a great job. But again, he can call, he can call anybody he wants from all kinds of backgrounds on the phone because he lives a multi-ethnic life. That's what he does. And I think you've helped me see why it's probably more difficult than we think it is, and why it's not just about putting someone who's different than you on stage for 10 minutes and going, "Oop, there we are." Oh boy, this has been helpful. I can't believe we're out of time. Can you believe that? Like, wow. - Wow, that was fast. - That was super fast. Was also incredibly helpful. And I know, I mean, we've got people who probably want to learn more. They want to find more. What is the easiest way to get ahold of you? We'll put it in the show notes so you can click on over to leadlikeneverbefore.com and get it, but easiest way. - Derwin, just a transformation church. Dot T as in Tom, C as in Cat. - Gotcha, right. - And you can get on to your blog that way and see what you've written your books and all that stuff, right? - Yeah, vlog, book, sermons, everything. - Derwin, it's been a joy. Thanks so much, man. - Thank you, my friend. I appreciate you. - Really appreciate having you on the podcast today. You know, one of the things that really amazed me about Derwin's story is just so many people I know struggle when they come from the kind of background that Derwin did, and for him to be able to overcome it and to believe in, and then to handle success. I mean, my goodness, to be handed millions of dollars when you're in your early 20s and the height of fame, but to actually have the humility to say, you know what? I need a savior, I gotta get my life together. And it's just really inspiring. And Derwin is a fantastic guy. He's become a friend over the last couple of years, and he's certainly somebody you wanna follow. So he shared all of his links. He's now blogging on the Christianity Today site. His blog is called Just Marinating, and we'll have all the links to that in the show notes. And you can get some memorable quotes from Derwin in the show notes as well, as well as a few insights along the way. So just go to carrynewhop.com/episode13, and you'll find all the information there. And if you got a question, just leave a question there, and I'll do my best to answer it, and maybe Derwin will even pop on from time to time. So hey, thank you so much for listening today. We again wanna thank today's sponsor, the Orange Conference, Orange Conference 2015, end of April in Atlanta, Georgia. You do not wanna miss it. Early bird rates are still on, but they end December 11th, at least in this wave of pricing. So you wanna get to the orangeconference.com and senior leaders, I'm gonna take the best care of you I know how to do. So thank you so much for listening. We are so excited next time when we get together. We've got a brand new episode every Tuesday. You'll never miss another one. And we're gonna talk about why sex is so seductive. It's an interview with Triple X churches, Ryan Russell. That's next Tuesday. The easiest way to never miss an episode is to simply subscribe, and you can do that on iTunes, Stitcher, or TuneInRadio. And we would love to have you do that. And if you have a moment in this help to you, leave a rating or review on any of those platforms. I read 'em all, we're so grateful, and that helps get the show in front of other leaders. So thanks for listening. We'll catch you next week, and thanks. I really hope this helps you lead like never before. You've been listening to the Carry New Hough Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (gentle music)