The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 008 – An Interview With Rich Birch
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal to help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. (upbeat music) - Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to episode eight of the podcast. My name's Carrie Newhoff. I'm so glad you're joining us today. And the goal in our time together today is to simply help you lead like never before. I just want to say thank you to everybody for interacting. I mean, thank you for subscribing. Thank you for all the reviews on iTunes, on Stitcher, on TuneIn Radio. Thank you so much for the shares on social media. One of the great joys for me is actually connecting with you personally. I mean, there are like far more people listening to this podcast than I ever thought would listen to this podcast. So I mean, it's just been awesome. There are literally thousands of people who download every episode, which is incredible. But my favorite part is actually being able to connect with you, with real people. And so many of you have been shouting out through social media and just, the interaction is so much fun. And to everybody who's come out on the Orange Tour this fall, we've had over 10,000 leaders in 12 cities. I haven't made it to every city, but for those that I have, it's just been so much fun meeting so many of you. In fact, today on the release date for this episode, I'm in Austin, Texas at the Orange Tour there. So if you're there, hello, it's good to hang out. And a number of us are gonna be able to have lunch together, which is fun. And then on Friday, I'm gonna be in Dallas, Friday, November 7th, in Dallas, Texas. So if you're in the Dallas area, that's my last stop on the Orange Tour. I would love to see you just drop by to orangetour.org. And you can register there or hop on over to the show notes at carrynewhoff.com/episode8. And the links will be there in the show notes right there. So that's available. It's been so fun connecting with you personally. And then great to talk to a lot of you on social media, man. It's, I mean, Twitter and Facebook are always fun. I'm on a variety of platforms. And you guys have been so kind and so generous, generous, I should say. In fact, last week, I just thought it'd be fun 'cause I'm trying to figure out this podcasting thing. I've been a listener for a few years, but, you know, we're only eight episodes in on this one. And it's like, so where do people actually listen to this podcast? 'Cause I wanna learn, I wanna figure out, you know, what are you doing when you're listening? And so the number one answer that people shot back when I threw that question out on Twitter and Facebook was simply that you're listening while you're commuting, which is something that I do personally. And then there were a variety of answers. So a quick shout out to Matt. He listens while he runs, drew listens at the gym when he's working out. Van and Karissa definitely commuting, trying to figure out how they can take notes while driving, which, you know, one day our technology will catch up with our aspirations. That's what I think Van and Karissa. So thanks for listening. Man, so many of you responded too many to mention. A couple of you said, you listen in the shower, which is just a lot of information, but that wasn't kind of, I wasn't expecting that. Wanna know how you go through so many earbuds. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. So for me, I listen a lot of the time when I'm doing yard work, like cutting the grass or just, you know, cleaning things or that sort of thing. And definitely commuting and working out are the main ways I listen to this podcast. So however you're listening, whatever you're doing today, really glad that you're here. And hey, wanna say it's really exciting that we've also got our very first contest underway. We already had a winner last week, which is awesome. One of you can win today. You're gonna win a free signed copy of my book, Leading Change Without Losing It, which I will send to you. And my guess is you're probably gonna wanna do some changing after you hear today's episode. And we're also in a few weeks giving away a grand prize. And it's a really cool prize. It is free admission to the Orange Conference in April of 2015 in Atlanta, Georgia. And coffee with me and John Acuff. That's right, we're gonna meet you one-on-one. We'll take you backstage. We'll have a conversation. It'll be so much fun. And we're gonna do the grand prize draw on a few weeks. But here's how you enter. You just go over to the show notes, carrynewhough.com and leave a comment. In the show notes today, I'll tell you about it at the end of this episode. I've got a specific question I want you to answer. It is related to the content of this podcast. So it's cool. When you leave a comment, that's your ballot both for the book this week and the grand prize in a couple of weeks. But because you'll be answering the question, you're also gonna help us all lead like never before. So today we're gonna talk all about connecting with people that we're not normally connecting with in the church and what you're doing to reach people. That's what the episode is about. So that's what the question's about. It's all at carrynewhough.com/episode8. And just head on over there and make sure you enter to win the grand prize and today's prize, or this week's prize, I should say, today before you stop listening. So my guest today, I'm super excited about it. His name is Rich Birch. We've been friends for a number of years. In fact, we worked together here in Canada for a season. He was with us at Kanexas Church where I lead. And before that, he was at the meeting house. And now he's at a big church just outside of New York City called Liquid Church in Morristown, New Jersey. They're a growing multi-campus church. He blogs, a lot of you might be familiar with them from his work at unseminary.com. That's his website, his blog. He also hosts a podcast that I've guested on called the Unseminary Podcast. You should subscribe to that. And I read Rich's blog. I don't read a lot of blogs. I should read more, but I read Rich's. He is just a real forward thinker. And just super sharp is you're gonna, it's not gonna take you long to figure that out in this episode. So Rich pushes the envelope. And today we're talking about cultural changes that are happening around us and how the church is responding. And Rich's just got some fascinating insights. In fact, a lot of us who think we lead contemporary churches are gonna be challenged by this because the question we ended up wrestling with is really, is a contemporary church all that contemporary? In light of all of the changes that are going on in culture, how can the church respond? I think you're gonna be fascinated by this conversation. Rich always makes me think so without further ado. Here's my guest this week, Rich Birch. Well, I'm excited to have one of my favorite people on the podcast today. This is Rich Birch. And Rich and I had the privilege of working together for a while and he's at Liquid Church in New Jersey. And Rich of all the guys I know is one of the most future thinking people. Like he always challenges me in every conversation. And he's always like out miles ahead of me. And so I wanted to talk about that during the podcast today. Welcome, Rich. - Hey, Kerry, that's, I don't know about that. That's a huge compliment. But I'm just so glad to be on your show. So excited what you're doing here. And I know you're helping all kinds of church leaders. So I'm honored, humbled that you want me on the show today. - Well, so are you. And so Rich, you wrote a really neat post and I'll link to it in the show notes. But it was about eight demographic changes in the United States that are happening. And you've been in the US now for about four or five years working in that context, originally a Canadian. And looking at change in the church. So what are some of the things you're seeing? And this is not just impacting New Jersey. It's impacting all of America. And I would suggest even as a Canadian, Canada as well. And probably everybody in the Western world, as we would call it, can relate to some of these demographic shifts you're seeing. So what are you seeing? That's making it different for church leaders. - Well, you know, it's so true. I know for us, it was funny being a Canadian writing in the States is always an interesting, you know, dynamic. I know you have the reverse issue where being a Canadian and having mostly American readers, I wish there was better Canadian statistics out there on some of this stuff. - They're just aren't. - They're just aren't. And so, you know, there's a number of things. I think, you know, kind of the big overarching broad thing that I'm thinking a lot about these days is, you know, I'm a 40-something senior leader in my church. And I feel like I've had the privilege of being involved in some really innovative churches that have made an impact that are, you know, pushing the ball down the field or helping people get connected with the message of Jesus. But for whatever reason, you know, I do think that this kind of next 10 years in my leadership are critical as we try to pass the message on to the next generation and really have younger leaders take over and not find ourselves, you know, by the time I'm in my mid-50s in a completely irrelevant church that's not making any difference. And so, you know, so I've been trying to be a bit of a stud, a culture student to try to understand that there's a number of things. I think for us, one of the things we've seen is really the rise of, you know, multiculturalism. New Jersey is very multicultural and it's just becoming more so that way. And, you know, the entire country is seeing that. One of the things the, you know, statistics that's out there is really the rise particularly of the Hispanic or Latino culture. And I know for us in our church, we're trying to wrestle through how do we give, how does our church become more Latino? How do we become more Hispanic? And we've done that. We can drill into that more personally if you want to, but I think that is an issue. I don't think we can stay stuck in kind of, you know, white mega church land. We have to figure out how to broaden our offerings and make our church more open to people, you know, and from whatever background they come from. That's so that's one. - No, I think that's a really good point because a lot of us, I mean, you're a white male, I'm a white male and often when you go to church, it looks pretty white, pretty Caucasian, but the community doesn't. So what are some of the implications you think for you guys in mountainside New Jersey and how do you overcome that when you're, you know, Caucasian, suburban people planting a church? - Well, you know, we haven't licked it yet, but I would say there's a couple of questions we're asking. We're thinking about, first of all, I don't think you two is the preeminent example of what worship music should sound like. You know, I think for a long time, I think that's been our, you know, I think as 40 something guys leading, we've said, man, if our worship could just be like Bono, that would be amazing. Where I just don't think that's the case anymore. I don't think that's the music that people are listening to. It's not the music that my kids are listening to. I've got teenagers and it's not the music that our, you know, the kind of broader culture is necessarily living to. So I think there's a music thing. We've got to figure out how to bring in some beats that sound a bit more, like what's being played on the radio. For us, we've tried to wrestle with specifically with the Spanish thing. We've been doing Spanish translation of our services now for a couple of years. And that's been an interesting process because it's not like all of a sudden it's changed, you know, sea change in our culture. But what we found is that our second and third generation Spanish folks that attend our church, who by the way are the kind of millennials, 20s, 30s, those folks, they've super appreciated that. They've said, hey, we really want the service in English because that's our primary language. But we love the fact that when our parents come, who are more comfortable in Spanish, they love that we're going out of the way to try to make that available for them. So again, that's been kind of one of those, you know, small things. We do a video announcements, you know, similar like North points 10 before or, you know, a lot of churches do video announcements. We've started over this year. We actually mix in a, one of our hosts Kaira is her name and she'll do a part of the announcement every morning. She'll do it in Spanish. And so she doesn't do a direct translation, but let's say like in the welcome portion, she'll not only welcome people in English, but then also welcome them in Spanish. Again, it's a small thing, but we're trying to at least acknowledge, hey, the culture is bigger than just honky land, you know, it's bigger than just white bald guys in their forties, like that. And so again, I think we're asking questions. We haven't necessarily figured it out yet, but that's, you know, that's a part of it. - Well, I'm glad you're asking questions. I think those are great questions to ask. Now, you almost ignited another worship war there because I think the reality is a lot of us have gotten to the point where we love our church music, but the problem is the community may not. So like, okay, so what does, is non-U2, you know, adult progressive rock music kind of sound like, and who's doing it these days, or is that really a cutting edge? Because you're right, we're sort of the new traditional church, right? The new traditional just U2 style music. - That's true. - Now our kids are at the point where they're like, yeah, we don't listen to that stuff. And we're like, yeah, but we like it. Doesn't that sound familiar? Doesn't it sound like the church we grew up in? - Carrie, that's so true. You know, as a, so I don't know if, you know, there's that boom bust echo concept, right? So you have the baby boomers, and then you have the echo, or which is now the millennial generation. I'm actually at the very bottom of the trough of the bust. So actually the year I was born was the smallest year of births in the 20th century, or post the boom. - Congratulations for making it. That's good. - And so it's funny because the, I've always found myself like small classroom sizes. I feel like I'm always relating with people who are older than younger. I'm classic Gen X. And I think the music thing is an example of that, where, you know, I was in one of those worship war environments, my early career, in my early career, that what the church was being led by, you know, some greatest generation folks, and some boomers were trying to change that, and it was hard, you know, it was a tough deal. I think for us, I think the music, you know, there's a whole trend around EDM, electronic dance music. I think we can't be scared of those beats in our worship music. I think we have to figure out how to incorporate. If you look at what Hillsong Young and Free is done, you know, so Hillsong United was becoming too old, right? It's too old of a brand like dark. - There's Hillsong, Hillsong United now, Hillsong Young and Free, right? - Yeah, and so Darling, check is long gone, right? Like, you know, shout to the Lord is like dead. - But not a lot of churches. Like in a lot of churches, it still lives on, right? That's like shout to the Lord is contemporary. Well, not really. Or, you know, some of the stuff we really like is contemporary, and our kids are going, not really, dad, not really. - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I think it's something around now. We've messed around a little bit with that where we're doing more loops and more, you know, more of an EDM kind of sound in our music. Again, I don't know that we're there yet, but I think that's what it's going to be around. I think it is going to have a much more kind of dance feel to it rather than the guitar driven. Part of that, there was this article in, I think it was Fortune Magazine last year. I'll see if I can find the link for it, where the title of it was The Death of the Electric Guitar in Pop Music. And it was talking about how it listed all the, like some great stats on how, you know, if you look at the electric guitar is almost absent from top 40 radio now, it just isn't there. - Wow. - And so a lot of our music and churches is still in that, that way, so I think that's one area. I think we've got to pay attention to that, because we don't want to be found, you know, we don't want to find ourselves 10 years from now, our music is just the new traditional music, for sure. - Yeah, that's true. So okay, I was really interested in what you said about language too, and welcoming people in Spanish and translating things into Spanish. So just to get an idea of your particular demographic, what percentage of people in your area, which is really just outside New York City in Jersey, what percentage would be Hispanic? - So it varies between the four campuses we're in, but it's definitely the largest minority. In one of our campuses, the community we're in, it is the majority, so it would be in that, you know, 50% plus community. - So you're not talking about 5% or 8% or something like that. This is something you see every day walking down the street every time you go to the mall. I've always said to our community, and I mean, you know where we minister north of Toronto, we should just look like our community. - So in some cases, your community's not very diverse. In some cases, it's incredibly diverse. And guys like Derwin Gray at his church down in North Carolina, Darren Chesky at Heartland Church in Indianapolis, they're doing a great job of doing intergenerational and multicultural church. And so that's a really good trend. How do you think churches as a whole are responding to the changes around us? Like when you look at how churches do. - I think we're last to change. You know, I think we really do drag our feet. Because some of it, I think is just a reality of how when God works in our lives, you know, I remember our God is an awesome God using staying with the worship tune thing, because there was a point in my life where that song meant a lot to me. And so, and God used that song in my life to communicate something. And so I think we're hard to move on because we get that attached to us. And so, you know, it takes a long time to change. And we, and typically, you know, we don't know, or it's hard to identify that the culture's shifting around us. And so I think we're kind of last to the party on that. You know, another area where I feel probably even deeper conviction than the music thing, and I know, Kara, you do a lot with churches that are trying to wrestle with family ministry, is when you look at the demographics of the family itself in the communities you're in, it has fundamentally shifted in the last 40 years. And so, and I know, I know, Rethink and Orange do a very good job raising that banner, but it convicts me every time I think about it. The fundamental change is this. People are getting married later. The big, big idea is basically, people are getting married later. That continues to rise, but they're not, they're not having kids any later in life. So the, you know, the reality of it is, is that the number of single moms, you know, kids being, you know, born to unwed parents is on the rise. And in fact, there's, there's some, sometime here in the next 15 years, it's gonna be just a norm. It's not, it's not gonna be the exception to the rule. And I don't come at that from a like, culture war, like, hey, that's all, there's obviously that has significant ramifications for families. My point of view from a pastoral leadership point of view is that is the reality of the families that we serve. And so whether we like it or not, our churches should be ready for that. And it's convicting because, you know, there's some stats out there that show, you know, that the, that actually the majority now of hid in certain demographics are born to unwed moms. And that's convicting because when I look at my family ministry, that's not what's actually happening. There's still a significant minority. And there, there it's a growing piece, but it's not, it's not a huge chunk that our single mom led homes. And so then I think what is it about our church? What is it about our family ministry that's not attracting single moms and their kids? Why is that? And how are, how can we do a better job on reaching out to single moms and kids in our community? - Yeah, that's a great point, you know. So I hope you didn't miss that. What we're just saying is people are still having kids, they're just having the kids first getting married later, if they get married, right? And that makes church leaders uncomfortable. So why do you think it is that single moms don't go to church? Why do you think that's a hostile environment for a lot of, let's call them non-traditional families, which are actually sort of the new traditional families? I mean, you know, that get married, have kids later and stay married for the rest of your life is an alternative lifestyle these days. - Yeah, I think some of it is just a straight up practical issue, you know, I think single moms are running in a million directions. And I feel bad for single moms. It's a lot to balance, it's a lot to figure out. And so the idea of what, you know, having a morning where they've got to get the kids ready and get them off to church or just stay at home, I think I would pick stay at home. So, you know, I think there's practical issues. And then I think there can be, you know, some kind of inherent distrust of the church and people feel like they're going to be judged when they arrive. And so, you know, we've got to work on that as a broader church that people feel like they're loved and cared for, that we extend grace, our knee-jerk reaction is grace. And then I think probably thirdly, that we maybe aren't offering anything that's appealing to a mom for her that just practically helps her out. People want help. And if we, I think a part of our job is to recast what we do in a way that makes sense and helps her. And so, you know, that could be a couple reasons why that is. - Yeah, I think those are good points. I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of us still want single moms and others to come to us rather than us going to them. And I think the judgment thing is huge. I know a lot of people who are terrified of showing up at church. And I love what Billy Phoenix, he's one of the campus pastors in the North Point churches, he's at Buckhead Church. And he says, you know what? Church leaders need to put ministry before theology. And I think a lot of the time we put our theology before our ministry and we say, well, you know, didn't have the kids in the right order, should have gotten married first, should have done this. It's a blended family. And, you know, we have all our theological categories that people fit into or they don't. And Jesus didn't. He just went and did ministry. And he said, let me talk to you. And then theology would catch up. And he would eventually say, you know what? Let's talk about your lifestyle or go and sin no more. But he wouldn't start there. And a lot of the time in the church, I think we feel compelled to start there. And I love the vision that Andy Stanley and Reggie Joiner are casting these days for a family. And they said, wouldn't it be great if you're in trouble or if you struggle the same sex attraction or if you are, you know, not a traditional family. If the church was the safest place in the world to have those conversations. The first place you would run to. And honestly, for a lot of people, we're the last. - Yeah, absolutely. - That's gotta change. What else are you seeing? 'Cause you had a lot of trends in that blog post. And again, we'll link to it in the show notes. But anything else that really kind of jumped out at you? - Yeah, quick ones. I think the, particularly I think a US phenomenon, but we're more politically polarized than ever before. And I'm not like a big, I'm actually don't really think that much about politics, but I think it is an interesting insight that the reality of it is that, you know, the left and the right are kind of pushing farther and farther apart. And I think as church, we have to think that through. I think there has been a time in our past where the church tried to align itself rightly or wrongly with a particular brand of kind of political movement. And I think we just have to pay attention to that because that, what's happening is that, if we do that, we're not really appealing to a wide variety of people, it's becoming a more polarized way to do that. If we just identify ourselves as Republican or just identify ourselves as democratic in the States, then that will limit our ability to reach a lot of people. There's a great guy out there, Jonathan Merritt, who's written a fantastic book that I think, you should have Jonathan on the show. He's a great guy, wrote a book called A Faith of Their Own. And I think he speaks really articulately on this whole issue. Yeah, that's one. I think the whole, the rise of the nuns, again, there's been a lot written on this so far. Explain that term. I don't think that's hit mainstream yet, but who are the nuns? What are the nuns? So the nuns are in American parlance for when they survey people about their religious background. You could select a number of things or you could just pick none. So like I have no religious background. This is when we're surveying people. And there's been a clear trend over the last 20 years that actually now to the point where the nuns, that number of people that don't identify themselves with any faith background is actually the fastest growing religious population in America. And it's not insignificant anymore. Yeah, it's been probably been there a long time and it's gone from, it was pretty steady for 50 years around the between five and 10%. But it's jumped up between the, in the last 20 years from that place to over 20% now of the population in some. In Canada, in the last survey, it was 24%. Yeah, absolutely. And that's significant. I think there was a time where people could, it was like churches were providing a great alternative. People had kind of religious background and they maybe felt guilty for not going to church. And so what you could do, there was a segment of society where if you just provided a better alternative, you made it less painful for them to go, people would come to your church. But I really think that's that era is going away. And I think people learning frankly, I think Carrie, that's one of the reasons why I think you have a listening south of the border in America because I think learning from leaders who are having to reach people in a culture that has already shifted to a really a post-Christian environment really gives us an advantage as church leaders because that's where the culture's headed. And so yeah, I think that's a significant issue. That kind of the whole nun's issue is a big one. Education's a huge one. I talked about that a little bit in there that we're now are serving in a culture that more people have post-secondary education than have ever had it before. Again, the modern kind of megachurch movement really birthed in the late '70s, early '60s with Willow Creek and before that, the Crystal Cathedral. And when you look at that timeframe to today, the number of people that have post-secondary education is like triple what it was at that point. And the number of people that didn't finish high school, there used to be like 50% of the people in 1960, didn't finish high school in America. Now that's down to like single digit percentage, maybe 10% total. And so why is that important? I think people have access. It's a part of a broader issue that people have more access to more information than they've ever had before. And so when you prepare your messages, when you think through how you communicate with people, you can't just present three points in a joke anymore. You really do have to present multiple points of view and be okay with ambiguity. And so that's a huge issue. - Well, and there is a point. I mean, 100 years ago, the pastor was one of the most educated people in the community. And the reality is a lot of pastors are very well-educated. Church leaders are very well-educated, but you are not the only well-educated person. And you can better believe it. If you're gonna preach creation versus evolution, everybody has, now, sometimes it's good education, sometimes it's a Google education, right? A little information is dangerous, but everybody's got an opinion. And so you're kind of more, I think you're right, you're kind of more like a broker of dialogue than you are an authority on an issue, and you've got to be comfortable with ambiguity, and you've got to be comfortable with unresolved questions, and you have to be okay with people saying, I don't agree, but can we still hang out? And I think in the past in churches, or maybe even in the present, if you don't agree, no, you can't hang out because we all think alike. Well, what if the church became a community where you didn't all think alike, which sounds pretty first century because Paul's always going, all right, no, there isn't 28 gods, there's one, and I know you used to be this way, but some of you are still that way, and you need to stop that. And it's a much more polytheistic culture that Paul spoke into, and we are moving into a polytheistic, multiple viewpoint, almost Athens-type culture where everybody's got a view on everything. - Oh, absolutely, yeah, I think that's a massive deal. I think communicators that will resonate in the long term are doing exactly that. They're trying to find a way to broker dialogue, and I think people are okay with, it's not ambiguity, it's not lack of clarity, but it's an opportunity to say, there are people that love the Lord, that read the text, that we read, and they've come to different conclusions, and that's okay. So, that's a huge issue. One, that's like a pet one for me, that I think a lot of people are gonna scratch their head, and you may even just edit it out, 'cause I'm not sure this is a big deal. But my dad grew up, or I grew up, my dad worked in the automotive industry, good Ontario boy up and down the 401, and there is a clear trend that people are driving cars less, and this is like a 1970s, I think it's a bigger trend and just the 1970s cost of gas shock issue. I think it's a part of a broader cocooning, people are spending more time in homes, less time out and about, I don't know if you've been in your local mall recently, but that place is more of a ghost town than it's ever been before. - Yes it is. - And again, a lot of times the American church, the North American church was built as a destination, it was the kind of thing that people drove to, and buy a hundred acres on the edge of town and get everybody to drive here. Well, people don't wanna drive to the edge of town anymore, and so I think that's gonna be an issue for us, I think we're gonna have to figure that one out. In a lot of ways, particularly the mega church movement could be traced as a car movement, it really is like before that there was the parish idea that you went to the church that you would either bike to or walk to where that's shifted in the last 60, 70 years. We may end up back there where people think about how do I walk to or at least drive a very short distance to their local church? - I think that's very true. I think people don't drive an hour to go to church, Christians do. And if you really wanna attract unchurched people, you've gotta be somewhere near their community, and the other thing, and we face this with where our locations are, you have to own a car to get to our church, you just do. In the South end of Berry, West end of Aurelia, and the bus schedule is like, sure, if you got three days, you can get there, and I'm not slamming public transit, but at the end of the day, it depends on wheels. And we hear regularly every month from people like young students, single moms who are like, "I can't get to you, but I wanna come." Now, some of that's online and so on. So let me pull this back a little bit into focus, 'cause this is good, this is good. But do you think the American attractional mega church is in danger? Do you think that could be? Because that's where you lead in. You've always worked in larger churches. You're helping one that's on an incredible growth curve right now, I mean, liquid church is a great story in New Jersey, but do you think we're seeing the expiry date, the little tag on the bread, the date is coming up on that? Like, are we seeing the expiry date on the American attractional mega church anytime soon? - You know, Akari, I think there is, I think it's a long ways out, but I think there is an expiry date there. I think there are some fundamental assumptions that I think are shifting under our feet that we've got to think through. I think there was kind of a move within the attractional church movement, and I'll say that, that's been the bread and butter of my career, that's the type of church I've worked in. I've given almost 20 years of my life to that. And we're not going anywhere. I think a lot about how do we get more people to show up to our services? I think a lot about how do we package up our next series? Those are the kind of things I think about. - I live in that world too, I got that. - And I had an experience happen recently where I was like, okay, that's interesting. I need to take that, I need to process that and understand that, where we went away this spring, my wife and I went away on a one week mission strip. We, too, Nicaragua, and we were bringing some clean water, helping with an organization there to bring some clean water. And you know what, I had next door neighbors and friends ask me about that, and ask me about that experience, and want to talk about that experience. And it was an opportunity to talk about what's important as our church. It was an opportunity to talk about, we talk about the water and the word that we do these water projects, and we do them in places where we can tell more people about Jesus. And it's been a long time since I've had someone ask me, so tell me about that relationship series you're doing at your church, or tell me about this amazing new thing that's happening. And so I think the attractional church isn't necessarily gonna go away, but I do think that we're gonna have to shift with our times, I think, the kind of idea of being both missional and attractional, being an organization that goes out and reaches out into our community, is kind of actively engaged in our community. I think is gonna be the new norm. I think we have to figure out how to do that. I do think that those kinds of community service opportunities are similar to the music and drama that the early, say the 1980s, attractional church movement was. The only reason why Willow Creek did, or insert whatever church you wanna say in that moment, the only reason why they did dramas and music was to get people's attention, to start the dialogue around Jesus. And I think in the same way, we have to figure out ways to get out of our seats and into the streets, doing things, which I think ultimately get people to ask the question, what is this all about? So I do think there's enough culture shifting happening that we're gonna have to readdress and rethink through what does the attractional kind of mega church movement look like, and probably challenge some of our assumptions, but it's not gonna go away tomorrow. There's still a lot of churches that are reaching a lot of people with that approach, and we're happy to continue to rise that wave in our church as well. - I agree, and I think that's a good context. It's not gonna disappear overnight. I mean, the American attractional mega church model has got a lot of critics, has had a lot of critics for years, and yet it's incredibly effective at leading people into actual real relationships with Jesus and people's lives actually gets changed. - But I do think you're right, that there is a sense in which the missional work of the church, and people are wondering, well, where's the missional church going, and what does it look like? I see it as a fusion as well of attractional and missional. In fact, we're recalibrating our student ministry right now, and one of the things we've realized with teenagers is that the attractional just doesn't work. First of all, unless you've got 500 students in a room which very few churches do, most churches have a dozen, two dozen, five dozen, a hundred kids, max. In a room, getting the big band up there and kind of melting their faces off is weird, just weird, you know. And so what we're talking about is emphasizing better small groups, relational ministry, and better mission. And what do you do, because you're right, there was a time where a mission trip was really something that Christians do, but now everybody's doing it, and it's got people's attraction, and we get way more questions about us doing stuff in the community and mission trips, and this be-rich initiative we do as a North Point strategic partner, then we do about the series that I'm really excited about. And the thing is, I am really excited about our next series, and it's got potential. It's got a huge thing, but I still think that's a really good point. So what are some of the things that you're doing right now to help position your church for the future? You've talked about translating services, about introducing a few more beats in the music, which would be fun. - I gotta get down there and hear it myself. (laughing) - But what are some other things you guys are? I mean, first of all, you're having a conversation, right? Which puts you ahead of the curve of a lot of churches. You're not denying reality, but are there other things you're doing? - Yeah, I think, you know, a big part of it is we're actively trying to figure out, and we're actually having a conversation. We are engaging in it. We're trying to figure out, okay, what is that next step? I think functionally a part of it is bringing younger leaders around us. If you look around the room that you lead in, and the majority of the people are the same age as you, you've got a problem. - Yes. - And we're in that mode where there are a lot of times where I'm sitting around and I'm like, this is a lot of guys, particularly, who are all in our 40s, 40-something, and that's a problem, you know, we have. So we're deliberately, particularly on the kind of creative programming side, you know, we're deliberately pushing the age down and saying, you know, we need to find younger leaders who we can bring around us. You know, that's one piece on the kind of the engagement, the missional kind of getting out, getting our people out of their seats into the streets. You know, we've made some moves on that front to try to integrate that into all of our programming. So, you know, even into our kids programming, like you're saying, into student programming, so that there is a get involved aspect to everything we do. You know, that would be a few things. You know, there's a bunch of periphery stuff like we talked about the kind of beat stuff and the, you know, the Spanish things, and yeah, that'd be a few things. - But I think your actual, like, younger leader thing is huge because, I don't know, there's something shifting in our culture. Okay, so I'm in my 40s too. I can barely say that anymore, but I'm in my 40s too. And there's a sense in which, oh yeah, I'm young and hip lasts a lot longer than it used to. I mean, there was a point, a generation or two ago and throughout most of history. I mean, if you lived to 40, you were old, or you were mature, you were an adult, and now we all walk around trying to pretend like we're 25 or 30. And there's a sense in which we fool ourselves, but we don't actually fool the 25-year-olds. - Right, right. - We really don't. And so, you know, part of that is getting younger leaders around and having one of the things we've done is we've got an internship program, like we call it now a scholarship program, because you've got to get younger leaders in the room and when you're like, oh, we love Bruce Springsteen, they're like, what? I think that's your generation or, you know, cold play, they're such an awesome band. Yeah, for my parents. Now, I happen to be a parent, I happen to like them, but that's how churches get hijacked. And I find there's no substitute. You can think young, you can be super savvy, and you're a young thinker, Rich, I think of anybody, but your kids are going to think differently than you. - Yeah, definitely. - And so are the 20-some things. What do you think some things are that churches shouldn't do? Like, what are some mistakes churches are making in an attempt to change things? - That's a very good question. You know, I think we have to get used to change. If you look around and say, there's nothing about what we do that makes me uncomfortable. If you look around and say, it's all perfect, and you're not uncomfortable, you're not like, oh, they're, you know, I don't know if that's going to work, then I think we've run into a problem. You know, we have to take more risks. We have to try things that are like, I just, this seems like a really crazy idea, but try it and see what happens. You know, we have to find ways to innovate at the edges, to, you know, to experiment with a few things, to see what, you know, what takes, you know, to see what'll happen, what sticks, what doesn't stick. So, you know, I think there, if you get codified in your approach, if you've been saying the same, if your strategy, fundamentally, your strategy, the way you do things, if you say, you know, we published that 15 years ago, and it's up on our wall, and everybody knows it really clearly, and we've never, we've never, we've never kind of torn apart the assumptions there. I think that's a problem, you know, the culture has shifted, and it may work. I think the problem, a lot of times is it's like, well, it's working, but what is it working to do? It's reaching people, you know, at a certain age, or, you know, it's not, it's not reaching kind of the next generation. You're not passing it on to the next generation. - Yeah, it's that greatest enemy, your future success, is your current success deal. - Oh, it's like, it is, because you're afraid to break it. You reach a certain point at which like, ah, I'm terrified, and I don't want to break it, and I don't want to wreck it. And you might have 4,000 people at your church, but the reality is you live in a city of 140,000 people. And most of them are not in church, so what do you do? So I think you're right, the enemies are complacency and probably denial, right? Like, oh yeah, we don't need to pay attention to that. - Right. - Yeah, maybe you do. So if you're a small or medium church, pastor or church leader listening to this podcast, what would you suggest they would do in response to what they've heard? 'Cause all of this can be so overwhelming, right? And you and I love talking theory. But what are one or two things that a leader could do now in a realistic timeframe that would help address these tensions? - You know, I think there's a good practice for church leaders is to try to get in relationship with other church leaders that are a little farther down the road than where they are today. And that might be size, that might just be development, right? You may look in your community and be, you know, those guys across town, they really are doing a great job with, you know, mission stuff. They really are getting people out of their seats and out of the streets. And I bet you, if you were to call them up and say, hey, can I take you out for lunch? I'd love to pick your brain on that. That I've yet to run into church leaders who would say no. You know, they're, at the end of the day, most church leaders are generous people that wanna give their time. And so I think getting in relationship with church leaders that are just a little farther down the road, I think sometimes we can find ourselves, like it's really easy to get connected with like North Point or with, you know, some industry that's-- - Never miss a podcast, right? - Yeah, exactly. And as much as, obviously, there's a lot you can get from those churches, the kind of name brand, the Holy Six churches that everyone follows. There's a lot you can learn there, but it can also be really overwhelming. And sometimes it can be really hard to apply 'cause it's like, yeah, I don't have a staff team of 250 that can execute this great thing. - Yeah, we don't have 25 million. - Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I think finding a church leader that's just a little bit farther down the road and that might be around the corner or it may be across the country, but I think that can be a great, you know, practical step. You know, for church leaders who you see another church that seems to be doing a good job, they're, you know, making a bit of difference on this. They've been able to turn some of these corners, try to get around them a little bit and find something, get some time with them and find out what makes them think. Sit in on their meetings, go sit in, say, hey, like, can I just be a fly on a wall next time you're planning something out? And again, my experience has been, most church leaders are happy to let you do that. - Absolutely, we do it all the time. And I know you do as well. - Yeah. - Okay, so a podcast like this, like an interview like this can, you know, you sort of pop the balloon a little bit and look around and it can easily feed into cynicism, which I know is not your heartbeat and certainly not my heartbeat. I mean, we just don't want to be the people who are left there 10, 15 years down the road going, what on earth happened? You know, this was so good. What gives you hope for the future? Because I know you're a hopeful leader and you're committed to the future of the church. - You know, it's funny. I see the church busting out all over the place. I see all kinds of great examples for, you know, of the church making an impact in the community. And I think there are a lot of churches that are wrestling with what do we do to make a difference in our communities. And it's a part of what we've done, you know, at on seminary, at the blog I write on, we try to highlight other church leaders that particularly people haven't heard from. I love talking to them because you get a sense that man, you know, that there's something up that kind of, there's some sort of reformation happening where churches are wrestling with these issues and trying to figure out how do we make a difference. And so, you know, at the end of the day, I am encouraged by the unlimited creativity that God has given two people to try to invent new approaches and to try to make a difference. And so although some of this stuff is pretty daunting, it's like, yeah, I think there's big shifts coming. I also trust that, you know, there's gonna be new models that are gonna rise up and figure out how to make an impact on a consistent basis. And so, you know, I'm encouraged by leaders all across the country, guys like yourself, there's all kinds of church leaders out there that I think are making a huge difference that, you know, it's encouraging to watch and see. - That's really cool. And if people wanna connect with Rich, Rich writes a great blog called, pardon me, Unseminary.com. Great name, always loved it. And you've even got a membership site now, right? So if people wanna go deeper, they can. - Yeah, it's true. And what we do over there is we just try to provide practical help for, you know, on stuff that they don't teach in seminary, you know, stuff that I always get sad when I think, man, churches are being held back, not typically not by complex issues. It's usually just real practical stuff. And so we try to provide, you know, training resources to help church leaders with that. - Thanks for the conversation today, Rich. - Thank you so much, Gary. Love being on the show. Thank you for your leadership. And I love what you're doing here. Look forward to see what happens in the future. - You bet. - Well, my guess is your head is probably spinning after that interview because that's a way it is for me, almost every time I talk to Rich. And he's got some great ideas. And even if they've pushed you a little bit, sometimes that's good. Those are the conversations we should be having behind the scenes about how to become more effective in executing our mission as Christians and as the church. So Rich spends a lot of time talking about issues like we talked about over at his site on seminary.com. And if you want to learn more about Rich, just head on over there. And today actually he's got a special offer. He's giving away a book. You can buy it on Amazon or you can get it for free today. He's put together a special offer just for my podcast listeners. So if you go to unseminary.com/carry, just my name, C-A-R-E-Y, you can get your free copy. That's unseminary.com/carry, C-A-R-E-Y. The free ebook is called Effective Announcements, Leverage Five Minutes in Every Church Service to Call People to Action. And that is really all about your announcement time. And you might think really a book on announcements, it's fantastic because usually we bore people to tears. You don't have to. Rich has got practical strategy. So get your free copy at unseminary.com/carry. Again, links to that are in the show notes. So you can go over there. And speaking of the show notes, I would love you to hop on over to my site and to leave a comment on today's episode. Here's why. Your comment equals your ballot to win a free book on this episode. I'm giving away a signed copy of Leading Change without losing it. A book I wrote about change. And it enters you into the grand prize draw for free admission to the Orange Conference 2015. That's right. You're going to go to the Orange Conference for free. We'll let you enter the conference for free. That's an over $300 value. And it's the only ticket that will get you coffee with me and John A. Cough backstage. So I'm super excited about that. We're going to be drawing for that in a few weeks. So in the meantime, just head on over to the blog, carrynewhough.com/episode8 and answer this question. Okay, this is what's cool. Because when you answer it, it's your ballot, but it also helps us all lead better, answer this. What is one change you've made at your church that's helping you better connect with the people who don't attend church in your community? So what's one change you made in your church? That's helping you connect with unchurched people. Again, the question will be there in the show notes. So just go over there, answer it. You are entered to win the grand prize. And I'll be drawing from all the ballots for episode eight for a free copy of my book. So we are super pumped about that. Again, might see you in Austin today and Dallas later this week. Next episode, speaking of John Acuff, he's our next guest. John is just a, he's an expert on social media. Probably a lot of you know him from his book, "Start", Twitter, he's got a brand new book he's working on called "Do Over". We'll talk about that. We're going to talk about why work is so frustrating for so many people. He's also hilarious, but we kind of drill down and have a serious conversation next week. You're going to love him. And of course, he's also the author of stuff Christians like. So John Acuff is up next, episode nine. In the meantime, subscribe. Head on over to iTunes, leave a rating or review. Thanks so much for the dialogue. And don't forget the contest. Head on over to the show notes, karaenuhoff.com/episode eight. Leave a comment. That's your ballot. And I am so looking forward to talking to you next week. Hope this really did help you lead like never before. - You've been listening to the "Karaenuhoff Leadership Podcast". Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change, and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)