The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 004 – An Interview With Kara Powell
[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the Carey Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carey Newhoff. Well, hey, everybody, and welcome to episode four of the podcast. My name's Carey Newhoff. You guys are just so awesome. And can I just start by saying that? Thanks so much for tuning in today. Thank you so much for all the feedback on this podcast. I mean, we're just starting out. And you guys have been so generous. I want to thank all of you, really. A lot of you have sent encouraging notes. You've left some amazing reviews on the iTunes store. So I live in Canada, just north of Toronto. And I always get the Canadian iTunes store. And there's some great reviews in the Canadian iTunes store. And I could always see that there were like 70 in the US store. But only a few days ago did. I figure out how to actually get into the US iTunes store from Canada to read what you've written. And man, you guys, it was so humbling. You've been amazing. So thank you so much. That's been so encouraging. And hey, I would love to meet some of you personally. If you guys want to connect in the next few weeks before we sort of get to today's guest and where we're going today, I'm going to be at the Orange Tour in Washington, DC. And in Indianapolis in the next few weeks. And I'll be doing some keynote, some breakouts. And also hosting a lunch for leaders. So that's where we get to connect up close and personal. You can just go to orangetour.org if you want more information. But hey, you're making this amazing. And I just want to say thank you. And also, if now we don't really have a library, but this is the fourth episode, and that's what I want to do over the next few years is build up a really strong library of leadership conversations that hopefully help you lead like never before. And your team lead like never before. And I'm just so amazed at how generous people have been. Today's guest Cara Powell, I think you'll agree, such an incredible interview. And I mean, combining the best of academics and also just speaking passionately as a mom and as a church leader, she's going to talk all about why kids leave church. Why do young adults kind of walk away, drift away? So I mean, she was so generous with her time. So was Casey Graham, Perry Noble, Andy Stanley. I'm upcoming guests have been so generous. And you know what? They've done this for free, which is amazing. So I really hope this helps you lead like never before. Today's guest, let's jump right into it, is someone by the name of Cara Powell. She is Dr. Cara Powell. She is a faculty member at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. And what I love about Cara is she's an academic, but she's also a passionate local church leader. And she's a mom too, a wife and a mom and really concerned about her own kids and other people's kids. And today we're going to drill down on the question, why are 40 to 50% of the kids who are still engaged in ministry, in high school, in their senior year of high school, why are 40 to 50% of them walking away or drifting away from the Christian faith in their 20s? It is perplexing. If you care about the church, if you care about the next generation, whether you're a church leader, a parent, a business leader who volunteers, I mean, this gets to your heart. And Cara has done some incredible research. She's written several books on it, all under the sticky faith brand. And you're going to be able to get all the information in the show notes, but it's just a fascinating conversation. She's got practical tips on what you can do, both as a parent and as a church leader, to help faith stick in the life of the next generation. So without a whole lot more, let's jump right into the interview and here is Dr. Cara Powell. Well, I'm so excited to have Cara Powell here today. Cara, welcome to the podcast. - Thanks, it's great to be here with you, Cari. - Cara and I have known each other for, oh, three or four years now. And Cara, the thing I really appreciate about you is you're just passionate about the next generation and you're an academic who is passionate about the next generation. Tell us a little bit about your story. How do you become so passionate about developing a faith that sticks in the next generation? - Well, I've been doing youth ministry since 1987 and have done, worked with both young life and more time in church ministry and just really loved teenagers. When I pray big, God-sized dreams, I pray those dreams for teenagers and young people. And so as much as I love young people, I also love the idea of offering parents and leaders the best, most deep, well-founded, well-studied tools possible. And so I also love research. And so I stand with one foot in the world of research and one foot in the world of real life ministry and real life family with teenagers. And that's exactly where I wanna stand. - Well, and that's what's so interesting to me. I mean, when you read sticky faith or the related products, I would say that's a very accurate description. I mean, it is as gritty and story-based as so much literature out there, but it's also got all this, you know, a lot of PhDs behind it. You have a doctorate, so did some others. Tell us a little bit about how you conducted the study behind sticky faith. Give us the bird's eye view of what that whole project is about because I think almost everybody listening to this, whether they're listening as a parent, as a church leader, as a ministry leader, as a volunteer. I mean, you gotta be pretty selfish to not be passionate about spirituality, faith in the next generation. And that's what sticky faith is all about. Why is it that sometimes faith sticks and sometimes it doesn't? - Yeah, well, really good research by others indicates that about 40 to 50% of young people from great families and great churches, like folks listening to this podcast, 40 to 50% of young people will drift from God and from the church after they graduate. So, Kerry, just imagine taking a mental snapshot of the young people you care about, your two sons, my three kids, other young people, and then imagine getting a red pen and putting an X through almost 50% of their faces. As a mom and a leader and a follower of Jesus, I'm not satisfied with that. I know you're not. And neither were we here at the Fuller Youth Institute. So we received a number of grants, one from the Lilly Endowment, that allowed us to study over 500 youth group graduates during their first three years in college, one from the Tyndale House Foundation that allowed us to study over 50 amazing families. And then we've been running sticky faith cohorts, year long learning processes for churches. And so because of that, we've studied over 150 churches. So we've had our hands in kids' lives, in families' lives, and the life of local congregations, all trying to figure out how can we reverse this trend of almost half of our young people drifting from the faith? - Yeah, and these are not just general population. These are kids who were actually raised, as you say, good homes, good churches, who were probably at one point involved, who said, I believe maybe even got baptized and now they're gone, they kind of vanished. - These were kids who were connected through their senior year of high school. - Wow. - So yeah, they had quite a relationship with the church, and then after that is when they drift, when they go to college or the military or workforce. - Yeah, and that's where every leader gets that sinking feeling in the pit of their stomach, and every parent gets that sinking feeling in the pit of their stomach. It's like, well, they were involved, what happened? Now, a little bit more on the research, I might get the dates wrong, but I believe the study ran for six or seven years from, is it 2004 to 2010? Is that right? - Yeah, that's right. In terms of the study of the young people that we did, and then in 2011, '12 and '13, is when we looked at the families as well as the churches. So we've really been conducting research on this question about long-term faith or sticky faith for the last decade. - Yeah, that's amazing, and it's a pretty broad sampling, and so people are like, well, it's just one style of church. I knew all evangelical churches were like that. No, you pulled from mainline, evangelical, everything, haven't you? - Yeah, different regions of the country, different sized churches. Yes, we tried to get the best diversity that we possibly could. - So we're kind of all implicated here. - Yeah, unfortunately, yes. - Which makes the research so valuable. Now, what did you find, or what are you finding? And I mean, this literally fills hundreds of pages. So just give us the bird's eye view of what you have discovered over this decade of research. - Well, I'll start by sharing what I think is, what has tended to grab the imagination of church leaders the most, and it's this. We were trying to find kind of a silver bullet that would yield sticky faith. That if every church did A, B, or C, then it would guarantee long-term faith in young people. And the reality, of course, is there is no guarantee. It's the Holy Spirit who produces spiritual transformation, not us. So we haven't found that silver bullet, but we have found what I call silver shavings. And we looked at 13 different youth group participation variables, 13 things that kids tend to do in the context of youth group. So you and listeners today will be glad to know that service and justice was related to mature faith in both high school and college. Studying scripture was related to mature faith in both high school and college. But at the 13 things that we looked at, the one that was most related to mature faith in high school and college was intergenerational worship and relationships, bringing the generations together. And in this day and age, there's so much segregation in the church and segregation is not a term that I use lightly. But we put our children in one building or one part of the building. We put our youth across the parking lot or in another wing of the building and the adults or someplace else. And so as a result, high school students graduate and they know youth group, they don't know the church. They know they're youth pastor, they don't know their senior pastor. So no wonder young people are leaving from the church because they haven't really experienced the church. They've just experienced a siloized youth ministry. - Well, it's interesting because their next step, if there is going to be a step, would not be into a siloized ministry. It would be into the broader life of the church for which you would suggest they're not prepared. - Yeah, typically that's so. Most churches don't have the same size or kind of level of dynamicness in college ministries. So absolutely kids have kind of experienced this Las Vegas like youth ministry and then they graduate into the unknown. - Right. So what does that look like? Intergenerational activities. Does that mean you have one church service where everybody from age four to, you know, 84 is involved? Or what does every week, like what does that look like? - Well, different churches are implementing this in different ways and, you know, every church needs to figure out the right rhythm or pace for them. One of my life mantras is that balance is something we swing through on our way to the other extreme. So, you know, one of the ways - That's great. I haven't heard that. - It's so true for me. One of the ways that sticky faith has been misunderstood is people think that we're calling for the end of children's ministry or the end of the ministry. That is not at all the case. You know, six-year-olds and 16-year-olds and 46-year-olds still need to talk about life stage issues. As one youth leader told me, you know, the average 16-year-old doesn't want to talk about pornography with grandma in the room. - Very true. - Yes, and grandma doesn't want to hear it either. - Exactly, so true. - So there is a 16-year-olds need to be on their own sum. It's just we've swung too far. So, you know, some congregations, they are canceling youth groups, say, every Sunday morning, but still meeting on Wednesday night. That would be a more extreme step. Others are canceling their youth group, say maybe once a month. Others are canceling it once a quarter, et cetera. So, you know, different churches are experimenting in different ways. But what I will say is this, is when we bring the young people into the worship experience, let's make sure they really feel included. So, creative churches are thinking about how to involve young people upfront. Creative senior pastors are thinking about how can I tell a story? How can I sprinkle a few sentences through my sermon where I talk about school lockers or final exams so that young people feel like, okay, I'm not just a guest here, but I am part of this community. - Okay, that's good to know. I mean, our church operates in Kinexis where I serve operates in the North Point model or a strategic partner. And one of the things that I think all of our partner churches do is we don't offer anything for high school students on Sunday morning, other than integration with the main service. And we encourage them to attend one and serve one. So, if you go through our children's ministry and our younger student ministry or middle school ministry, I don't know, something like 30, 40, 50% of the people who volunteer, there are high school students. - That's great. - And that, is that an example of one way to do that? And we still have student ministry, it just happens Sunday night, right? - Yeah, absolutely. And that is, it's important, Kerry, that churches like yours who aren't, say, doing youth group on Sunday mornings, have other opportunities for kids to connect with each other, whether it's Sunday night, midweek, small group, large group, 'cause that's important. But what I will say is it's not just about getting kids in the same room with adults, safer worship, it's really about the relationships that can be established there. And so that's where we've learned through our sticky faith cohorts, there's a difference between multi-generational ministry and inter-generational ministry. Multi-generational ministry is getting everybody in the same room. And you know, y'all often have the senior adults sitting closer to the front and the middle aged adults behind them and then the teammates way in the back. - That's a good first step, but it's honestly, and sometimes a needed first step, but it's a bit of a placebo for what we ultimately want, which is inter-generational ministry, where people are really talking with each other. People are actually getting to know each other, praying for each other, knowing each other's names. You know, even those sorts of steps help young people feel connected to the church and that's more likely to have sticky faith. - So can serving be one way to do that? I know that's something we encourage and basically students end up serving alongside adults and grandparents and the whole deal. - Yeah, that's awesome. And what we encourage churches who do have, you know, large swaths of young people serving in their ministries is to really train those adults to mentor those teenagers because a lot of adults, yeah, a lot of adults, you know, they think, well, I'm teaching third graders and they don't think about that 16-year-old who's in the room other than that 16-year-old is gonna help me get graham crackers out. - Yeah, that's right. Just do the work I don't wanna do. - Pretty much, pretty much. And, you know, graham crackers need to get out and apple juice needs to be poured. That needs to happen in children's ministry. But for that, you know, that adult to think, gosh, how do I also pour into this 16-year-old? If this 16-year-old say happens to play soccer, how do I try to make it to one of their soccer games during the course of the season? So they know I care about them as a person, not just them as a class helper. - Oh, that's a really, really good point, Cara. The other thing I would say, too, to senior pastors who, like me, teach, it is whole other filter to put through your message when you know there's a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old sitting there listening to your message. Not only for the examples, but I mean, you just can't be boring and you can't be confusing. And I think if you can speak to teenagers, you can speak to unchurched people. And my little editorial thing, if you're not reaching teenagers, good luck reaching unchurched people because they're not gonna get it either. And if you can't be clear enough to really speak into a teenager's life, you're never gonna be clear enough to speak into an unchurched person's life. - That's such a great point, Cara. I mean, I hear you saying that having young people in your congregation and thinking about them as you're prepping, it's raised your game. I mean, it's dramatically helped your sermons for everybody, not just the young people, but church and unchurched adults too. - They will not hesitate to tell you you're boring, you know? You'll find that out when they're sound asleep in the back road 'cause of Saturday night, you know? - Right, right. Or on their phones the whole time, yeah. - Exactly, exactly. You read the Twitter stream, boring, no. You know, it's not that extreme, but they give you really good feedback. And a lot of them, this is the surprise, a lot of them really dial in, they love it. They really love being there, they listen, they engage. It's powerful. - Okay, so are those the basic findings? I mean, like I say, the research is very, is there anything else you want to share? - Oh gosh, so much I want to share. I just wanted to start there because that's probably what churches have grabbed onto the most. I would say, you know, core to what we found in sticky faith is that young people have a really distorted view of what even faith is. That kids who graduate from great, well intentioned congregations tend to think of their faith as a list of do's and don'ts or what Dallas Willard called the gospel of sin management. You know, this gospel that's all about a checklist. And so then they graduate and when they fail to live up to that checklist, note I said, when not if. - Yes. - 'Cause all of us fail that checklist, and I'll fail it today, I'll fail it today, I'm sure. When we fail to live up to that checklist, then young people end up running from God and the church just when they need both the most. So one of the big things out of our sticky faith research is to really reclaim what separates Christianity from every other religion. And, you know, and I've studied this, I've studied all different religions of the world. What separates Christianity? Number one, I mean, of course, Jesus, but really from a theological perspective, it's grace. - Yes, it is. - It's grace. Every other religion, you have to earn God's favor. And Christianity, we don't teach that. We teach that God loves us unconditionally. But unfortunately, we as well-intentioned parents and teachers, we end up teaching a gospel that emphasizes the commands of scripture so much, but doesn't emphasize the grace that enables us to obey those commands. - It's, yeah. - Go ahead. - You know what, no, honestly, of all the things I've read, that one challenged me the most. Because, I mean, I know that's true, and I think everybody would say, well, of course, that's true. But as a dad of two teenagers, well, young adults now, as a pastor with a lot of teenagers, and just, you know, this goes into the adult years, it is so hard not to get freaked out by what you hear is really going on. And it is so easy just to relapse into the gospel of sin management. And you propose an alternative, and you say the alternative is trust, right? Am I summarizing that accurately? - Yeah, absolutely. That it's not, I mean, so many sermons that if we were to really be honest with ourselves as leaders and say, do a post-mortem on our sermons, our small groups, they, sadly, the essence tends to be two words, try harder. - Yeah, yeah, don't screw up this week, and when you do come back next week, we'll help you feel bad about yourself again. - Exactly, but what we learned from Paul's Epistles is that the gospel is all about trusting in God's grace. And John 15 harkens into this too, that as we abide, then we bear fruit. As we live with a sense of God's ongoing grace, then that's what allows us to obey. And here's what young people need to understand and adults too, is that the same grace, once we fail, this same grace allows us to go back and receive the forgiveness and restoration from God and through the faith community. So, grace is not only what enables us to obey, it's also what enables us, even in the midst of our ongoing failure. - See, and that's such great theology, but it's so often lost in, hey, just do better, don't mess up, and you're right. I mean, classic student ministry, classic preaching is, here's a whole lot of stuff you shouldn't do, and we would never say out loud, God won't love you if you do it, but we're horrified when people do it. And I mean, yeah, there's a lot of foolishness that happens, and I think every parent has wrestled with that tension, yes, I made mistakes when I was a teenager, but you're not supposed to make those mistakes, right? You're supposed to be perfect. So, trust is kind of the banner which you use to frame then how we should approach, relating to the next generation, is that right? - Yeah, absolutely, and we frame it that way because that's how Paul frames it, we didn't make this up on our own, but if you read Paul's Epistles, what's interesting is it's in the latter chapters of Paul's Epistles, Ephesians five and six, Galatians five, Philippians four, et cetera, when we get into the majority of the commands, those do's and don'ts. And our problem is as leaders and teachers, we camp out on those latter chapters of the Epistles without understanding all that's preceded it. And the early chapters of Paul's Epistles tend to follow this pattern of God's love for us, our sin that separates us, and then God's grace that allows us to have relationship again with God. So, my commitment to myself and to people within my speech, out of ours to give eight researches, even if I'm teaching, say, on Ephesians six, or Galatians five, I have to frame it, I have to frame Ephesians six in light of Ephesians two. And so, I can't teach Ephesians six without teaching Ephesians two, even just for a few paragraphs where Paul writes, as we know, that we are saved by grace through faith so that none of us can boast. So, yes, teach the do's and don'ts and talk with our kids about those as parents. But none of that can happen without understanding what Paul wrote before those do's and don'ts, which is so much about God's grace. - So, really, really good point. So, the challenge with that, of course, is it gets really messy. And your writing is full of stories of, like I think in one of the cohorts, one of the groups of students you studied, I think it was something like 69 or 70 students and every single one of those students, again, who finished their senior year in a church, used alcohol in their first year. Not that that's, you know, I'm not saying it's sinful to use it or whatever, I'm not passing judgment, it's just like, too much alcohol often ends you up in situations you don't wanna be in, right? And so, you get in there, there's stories about teenagers who involved got pregnant, I mean, sex, drugs, alcohol, the whole scene. And so, these students who are hyper-involved at church also get hyper-involved in that scene and you're the minister of the gospel or you're the youth leader or you're the small group leader who wades into that. And how do you not freak out? - Yeah, I think it starts. I mean, Bonhoeffer wrote my paraphrase, I'm gonna paraphrase this out of life together, but he wrote, "Community is only possible "when we think of ourself as the biggest center in the room." The biggest center in the conversation or as Paul writes, the chief of all centers. So, I think it starts with understanding our own sin and our own struggles to be the people that God wants us to be and to make that something that we are communicating regularly with, whether it's our kids and our family or whether it's the young people and adults in our ministries. And I'm not saying to emotionally vomit all over our kids, but out of our research, if I can focus on just our home for a bit, we've become so much more quick to talk about our mistakes and our struggles with our kids. Just yesterday, I had to apologize for how I handled something with our 11 year old. Her attitude was just driving me crazy. She's like 11 going on 15. So, I mean, she was just acting like a sassy 15 year old. And I had told myself, okay, I'm gonna talk to her about it at bedtime, that'll be a better time. But as I picked her up from her friend's house, she just, she just, it was the straw that broke the camel back. - She knows your button too and she knows exactly how to push it, doesn't she? - So much so. So, I just, I got in the minivan and I thought I cannot wait until bedtime for this. I need to talk to her about this now. But I just didn't handle it as well as I could have. And so, and I saw her just shrink as I started talking to her. And so, ironically, we were driving to church. And so, of course, of course you were, right. - So, we got to church and my husband was meeting us. And so, I said, hey, Dave, you gotta take the, I just have one of my other kids with me. I said, can you take Jessica? I just need to talk to Krista. And we sat in the church parking lot for about 20 minutes. And I just apologized to her. And I said, Krista, I'm really sorry I didn't handle that well. And I used the tone of voice that I don't want to as a mom. And I was very quick to talk about, you know, my mistakes, even in how I was trying to discipline her. And you know what? She eventually opened up in that 20-minute conversation. And we had a great dialogue where she got to the point of being able to apologize to me. But it started with me being in touch with and sharing with her, hey, here's how I've phoned it. So, you know, parents often ask almost always when we speak to parents about sticky faith. And a parent raises their hand. And usually their first question is, should I share with my kids my own struggles from when I was a teenager? Or is that going to make them more likely to, you know, drink, do drugs, et cetera? Dad did this if mom did this, then I guess I can. Exactly. But, you know what, Carrie, I've been working with teenagers for over 25 years. The reasons that teenagers choose to engage in those high-risk behaviors is so long that, you know, because mom and dad did, that is about number 10 on the list. I mean, there are so many other forces. So, what I say to parents is a general rule is if you would open up with some of that, that would create conversation with your kids that can help prevent some of those choices versus staying silent for fear that they're going to somehow, you know, repeat your mistakes. Yeah, and that's a tough place to go as a parent. You know, I really appreciate what you're saying and in the course of my parenting, I've had to apologize to my kids over and over again. And I think for parents who don't do it, I mean, you know, my friend, our friend, Reggie Joiner, and I, we wrote a book a couple of years ago Parenting Beyond Your Capacity where we talked about holding up the perfect picture. And I think everybody thinks this is only me. Only my kids are going through this. I'm the only dad who ever loses his temper. I'm the only mom who, you know, speaks shortly with her kids. And the reality is we've got to drop that and it is the gospel that moves into our family in those moments. And our kids see us as flawed sinners saved by a very gracious God who is remaking us. I had a conversation with my 22 year old recently and we were sort of rehashing a few things. And I said, you know, I wish I could get some of those moments back. And I just apologize. And he said, yeah, dad, but you and mom are like, you're different. And I see you trying. And he says, some areas you struggled with a few years ago, you're not struggling as much. And I'm like, yeah, I guess that's true. But I mean, it's just, it's hard. Anybody who says parenting is easy, hasn't parented. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you, Carrie. I love my kids and parenting is my hardest role in life. To be the parent that I want to be in that, I think God wants me to be. It takes so much work and energy and intentionality. So I will say this for, you know, we're talking about kind of teenage struggles. For folks who are listening who have younger kids, it's never too early to start implementing some of these principles. And to make your home a safe place to talk about mistakes, our youngest was about four when we started underthing this research. And so, you know, in our family, we had been sharing high and low around the dinner table since our kids were little. But because of our research, we added a couple questions, one of which is what mistake did you make today? Because we want every day for us to be able to talk about mistakes. And our youngest who's now eight, boy, she loves keeping track of my mistakes. (laughing) So all during the course of the day, oh, that's gonna be one of your mistakes, Mommy. Oh, that's gonna be one of your mistakes, Mommy. She's keeping a mental list of all my mistakes. But, you know, she talked about her mistakes too over dinner. And we've had times where, especially I have had to apologize for my kids, 'cause to my kids, 'cause a lot of times my mistakes involve how I treat them. And so, yeah, just making mistakes something and sin and struggle, something that we can talk about, even from an early age. But that's a genesis for confession, right? Like, I think confession is a lost art. And I think that's great. So let's talk to young parents too, because is there anything that, you know, if you've got preschoolers or elementary age kids at this point, anything in particular that they need to be on the lookout for, or things where they would say, okay, I can do this now and it'll help. It won't guarantee there's no silver bullet, but there's, what did you call them, silver shavings? Yeah, silver shavings, that's my made up technical research term. Love it, love it, yeah. You know, what I love about parents of younger kids is they can start weaving threads into the fabric of their family early on. So it can sometimes feel a little bit forced when you're a parent of teenagers trying to change some of your family rhythms, but what a perfect time when your kids are younger. So what I would say is I'd wanna let parents of elementary school kids know about some of our other research on parent-child faith conversations. And this has also definitely changed our own family is let's say, Carrie, that you're my kid. What our research indicates is that it is a good thing for me to ask you questions about your faith, which, you know, kind of good Christian parents tend to do. How was church, how was youth group, how was church history, what did you study? What did you learn in the message, yeah. Exactly, and depending on your kid's mood personality, you might get an answer or you might get kind of a leave me alone mom, I roll. Right, or you have boys and they just grunt. Yeah, it's one of the others. Gutter all sounds. Yeah. (laughs) Or maybe other bodily noises, you know. It's just very true, very true. So it's a good thing to ask those questions as parents, but what our research shows is it's as important and much less practice for us to share about our own faith with kids. In other words, instead of interviewing our kids about their faith, it's also us talking about our own spiritual journey. What we're praying about, what we heard in church. I mean, this was the mistake I was totally making until our research, literally Sundays after church, you know, our kids would have these little sheets that they had done in children's church. And we would talk about them. And then we would kind of move on to praying together as a family. And Dave and I never talked about what we were learning in church. And I realized, man, what a golden opportunity. So I love saying to parents, our research isn't saying you need to be more spiritual than you already are. Our research is saying share with your kids the spirituality you already have. Yeah, and I mean, we at our church where I serve, we try to be a church that unchurch people love to attend. We have a lot of formerly unchurch people. I think one of the pushbacks you would get to that and it's not fatal is simply this. I barely have a faith. I mean, I'm figuring this out at the same time my kids are. So if there's parents listening or leaders listening, you know, who are like, wow, I don't even know what I'd say. I don't pray with my kids 'cause I don't really know how to pray. Do you just start where you are? How do you handle that? Yes, well, you've answered it partly, Carrie. Yeah, definitely start where you are. And number two, I mean, I'm not talking about doing a sermon on a sermon on the Mount. Yeah. You know, we're not talking about doing complicated exegesis engaging into the Greek or the Hebrew. We're talking about simply saying, you know, as you hear about the Ebola virus, just saying to your kids, you know what, I've been praying for Africa and I've been praying for God to bring healing and for God's light to shine. Just simply sharing that. And actually current events are often a great conversation platform for parents who are a little timid and talking about their faith, what they've been praying for, thoughts that they have about certain current events. You know, parents can definitely start with that. Sometimes I've found even the basics like explaining why we do what we do. Hey, mom's gonna get involved with the starting point thing and the reason we're really passionate about seeing faith form in kids or no small groups of priority for us and here's why. Those conversations can be interesting for your kids. So you've got a lot of research, a decade of research of all the findings. What surprised you the most? - Well, good question. The first thing that comes to mind is the role of doubt in a young person's faith journey. And, you know, so often we think of doubt as something that's detrimental or sabotages faith or is toxic to faith. And that's not what we saw in our research. Our research shows that it's not doubt that is toxic to faith, it's an expressed doubt. That is toxic to young people's faith. - That's huge. - So yeah, we've got data that shows that when young people feel the opportunity to express and explore their doubts, that that's actually related to greater faith maturity both in high school and college. And yet the vast majority of students don't feel like they can express or explore their doubts. So for church leaders who are listening to this, you know, to ask the hard question, do young people feel like they can ask big and tough questions about God in our community? And if not, how can we create more safe places so that they can? - Wow. And that's got to be high on the freak out meter for parents too when your 14 year old says, I'm not sure I really believe this. Or how do we even know the Bible is true? Are they looking for objective answers? Or are they just looking for a place where they know that they can be loved and still ask questions that kick against orthodoxy? - Yeah, I would say the answer is yes. You just gave me two options and it's both. - Okay. - Of course they are somewhat interested in the answer, but I think they're also interested in knowing that God and the faith community is big enough to handle those questions. So, you know, one story that haunts me, Carrie is of a 13 year old who went to a senior pastor one day and this was a very curious inquisitive 13 year old boy and he went to a senior pastor and said, you know, pastor, if I raise my pinky finger, will God know what's happening? Does God know which finger I'm going to raise? And the well intentioned senior pastor said, yes, God knows what finger you're going to raise before you raise it. So then the same boy pulled out a copy of a time magazine that showed starving children in Africa. And he said, well, then pastor does God know what's happening with these starving children in Africa? And the pastor said, yes, God knows what's happening and we just need to trust God. Well, that 13 year old boy is someone I'm sure you've heard of and in fact, I'm actually using technology that he helped create that 13 year old boy with Steve Jobs. - Wow. - Yeah. And the biography by Isaacson, Steve had that question, went to a senior pastor. Does God know what's happening with these children in Africa? And the pastor gave a well intention to answer, but Steve ended up walking out of that Christian church and never again, going back to worship. So he urged parents and leaders, when young people come to them with questions, four great words are to say, I don't know, but you know, there are a lot, I have a PhD in practical theology. There's a lot about God, I don't understand. I mean, if I could understand about everything about God, he wouldn't be God. So, you know, for that senior pastor to have said to Steve, I don't know, but Steve, how about if you and I meet with your mom and this woman who loves questions about science and the four of us can have coffee together? Or I don't know Steve, but what if me, you and your dad get together for lunch after church next week and we can talk about it? You know, to have, to create that kind of space for those kind of tough questions. We could have made a real difference in Steve's life and every one of us know young people. If we stop and ask them, this is amazing with my own kids. I stop and ask them, even just through this last night with a small group, I lead with boys and their moms. - Yeah, I've read about that group fascinating. - Yeah, it's called BAM for boys and moms. Boys came up with a name, so. - Sounds like it. - Yeah, you can tell, right? But, you know, we talked about last night, if you could ask God any question, what would it be? And the boys and moms all went around and I mean, some of them were very personal questions. Others were very kind of classic apologetics questions and I was taking notes as we talked 'cause I thought, okay, this needs to form what we talk about in future weeks together. - Well, and I wonder if one of the things underneath that, Kara, is just the idea that I can ask questions and people will still love me and people will still accept me and you will still be my friend because I think we've all been burned, we're all afraid, if we have questions and it might not be spiritual questions, they might just be questions of a friend or whatever, but if I say that, you won't be my friend anymore. I won't be accepted, I'll be rejected. And so we have all these unexpressed doubts and then the only people who will have the conversation with us are people who aren't gonna land on the side of Jesus. They'll be the people who are like, well, no, everybody's got those questions and the next thing you know, you haven't been in church, you don't believe, you're not reading your Bible, any of that stuff. And for me as a dad and for me as a pastor and even as a person, that's been very, very challenging is to expand my universe well enough and clearly God is in that space because if he wasn't good with doubt, we wouldn't be living in the reality we live in, right? God seems to be far more comfortable with doubt than a lot of Christian leaders are. And so. - Sure, yeah, well, and so, I mean, I think you've hit on something really important, Carrie, and that is, you know, what do we do when young people have doubts and whether it's in our congregation or in our family are then saying, I don't wanna go to church anymore, et cetera. And so, you know, Eugene Peterson gives a great answer to this question as he gives great answers to many questions. - Yeah, and he says, you know, what's important is that young people who are asking those questions stay in the conversation. They stay in the conversation. So if you know a young person who's big questions about God is causing them to drift from their faith, then I would say, how do you make sure they stay engaged in the conversation, whether that's in a small group, whether that's in ongoing 101 mentoring with an adult in your church? Because if we don't provide venues for conversation to happen, then as you've said, well, they're gonna have conversations in other places and come to conclusions we wish they wouldn't come to. - Yeah, okay, so that's good advice. If you're a parent or a church leader and you see some kids or your kids drifting, keep up the dialogue, try to have the conversation, embrace the tension. What about for parents, and maybe again, this is of, you know, you got a five-year-old or a 10-year-old or even a 15-year-old, you think is locked down solid on the Christian faith. You're convinced they're not gonna be one of the 40 to 50% who walk away. Are there things to watch out for? Are there warning signs or any word to those parents? - Well, I'd say watch out for your own arrogance. You know, honestly, we've got three kids. Our oldest is just turning 14. I'm not entirely sure how their faith is going to unfold. So for me, that keeps me humble, that keeps me trying, that keeps me trusting in God. And so, you know, I would get worried of any parent who feels like they're doing everything right or as you said, has it all locked down. The reality is parenting is one of God's great ways to teach us new things about trusting him. And so maybe we embrace it that way. - Yeah, and I think you raise a real key point. It's their faith at the end of the day. I have mine, my wife has hers, but at the end of the day, it's their faith that's developing. And, you know, where were some of us at 15 or 18 or 25? And I don't know, I think this is just a little personal rant here, Cara, but I think there's a parenting book in there somewhere. And I know I share this heart, Reggie does, probably YouTube, but I think there's so much out there and we're so hyper-connected now through social media and the online world, that there is a pride associated with parenting and things that are going well. And I think at the end of the day, you know, to me, parenting is very much a parabolic form of the relationship God has with us. Kids are free. Sometimes they embrace them, sometimes they don't, sometimes they embrace us, sometimes they don't. And I would say to the discouraged parent, if you're really discouraged right now and you're like, oh, we should have kept the dialogue open or, you know, we should have got them involved, we wish our church had multi-generational, inter-generational worship, you know, your story's God's story. And it's not over and it's not done. - And you know, one of the things that has become a mantra in our family back to the subject of grace is, you know, we say with our kids regularly, Jesus is bigger than our mistakes. And we want our kids to know that about their mistakes, but I need to know that as a mom too. I mean, I could write a whole book on how I blew it yesterday. That could actually be the title of the book, how I blew it yesterday as well. - It's a great title, actually. - Yeah, so for us to rest knowing that Jesus is bigger than our own mistakes as leaders and parents, it's key. - Wow, you know, that's a good place to wrap up. That's a word of hope, Cara. I am positive that people are going to want to know more and they're going to want to jump in on all of your stuff. So tell us about a couple of the books you've written on this subject and then the easiest place to find your research. - Yeah, easiest place is stickyfaith.org. We have hundreds of free resources for leaders and parents there at stickyfaith.org. And our new book that just came out is called the sticky faith guide for your family. And that, I just love this book. It's dramatically changed my own parenting because it emerged from those 50 interviews we did with parents. So if you're a leader, in fact, I just got an email today from a youth leader who said I read the first chapter and the second chapter of this book and I stopped and ordered copies for all the parents at my church. So if you're a leader, you might want to think about getting this for parents and your church. If you're a parent, please check it out and you can find out more about that book, the sticky faith guide for your family at stickyfaith.org. - Cara, can't thank you enough. Thank you so much. - Oh my gosh. This has been awesome, Cara, you love talking with you. - It's great, thanks so much, Cara. See, this is what amazes me. I mean, wasn't that just not only a fun conversation but a fascinating conversation? There's just so much. When you combine academia and sort of your passion for the local church, it's just so amazing what you can see. And if you want more, everything is in the show notes. If you just go to carrynewhoff.com/episode4, that's carrynewhoff, C-A-R-E-Y, N-I-E-U-W-H-O-F.com/episode numeral4. You'll see everything there, all the links there, including the links to Cara's books. And she just released one, the Family Edition, which I would encourage you to pick up. And also some free resources on the Fuller site as well, the Fuller Youth Institute. All of that is in there as well as some practical action tips. And in the show notes, you'll also find some tweetables, some quotes from Cara that if they really helped you, you can share them on social media and then that may make some of your friends aware of the episode, you can help them. And so there's more information in the show notes right now. Now today's podcast is sponsored by the Orange Tour. It is a US tour brought to you by Orange that helps take your family ministry team to a whole other level. And this year's tour has been amazing. I can't get to every city, but the cities I've been on have been phenomenal. We've had so much fun. And I am gonna be in Washington DC later this week on Thursday and Friday. And then next week, October 16th and 17th, I'm gonna be in Indianapolis. And I give the opening keynote on the Thursday night and then do some breakouts as well, Thursday and Friday at the tour and host a leaders lunch on Friday, on the tour stop. So I would love to have you come to that. It is very affordable. You can bring your whole team. Just go to orangetour.org or you can click on the show notes at carrynewhoff.com/episode4 and all the links are right there. And I hope to see you in DC or in Indy this week or next week. So next episode, we are coming back with an incredible guest, Craig Jutilla. Craig is also from California and Craig has a story about how he became a successful leader at one of the biggest churches in America. One of the most famous churches in America. And burned out, he actually came home. If you've ever struggled in your marriage, and I mean, if you've been married for more than 10 minutes, who hasn't, read his wife's journal and found an entry in there that simply said, "I hate my husband." And that rocked his world. And Craig tells an amazing story of how ministry almost killed his marriage, almost killed his family and the road back. It's fascinating, you just gotta hear it. So that's next week. We are a weekly podcast now. The cool thing is we're also on Stitcher. We're also on TuneIn Radio as well as on iTunes. And if you could leave a rating or review on any of those platforms, we're so grateful that just helps us get in front of other leaders. So we're gonna continue the conversation. Jump on over to karaenuhoff.com. And if you wanna leave a comment on this episode, I'll do my best to answer them. And we're blogging about some other leadership subjects as well. And we will see you next Tuesday. Thanks so much for listening. You guys are just incredibly awesome. And we're back seven days from now with Craig Jutilla. Hope this helps you lead like never before. (upbeat music) You've been listening to the karaenuhoff leadership podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)