The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 002 – An Interview With Perry Noble
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, welcome to episode two of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. I am so, so glad that you're here. It has been a fantastic conversation so far. I mean, we're just two episodes in, but I've heard from so many of you on episode one with Andy Stanley. I mean, it's so exceeded my expectations. First of all, Andy was amazing. If you haven't heard that, you gotta go back and listen to episode number one. But you just made it great. You made it fantastic. So many of you were so enthusiastic. You actually made the podcast debut at number one on iTunes. Incredible, incredible. It stayed in the top five for a long time. So many of you have left reviews already. We ask you to do that. And there's over 60 in the US iTunes store. And that's so fantastic because it really helps get the podcast in front of other leaders. And our goal here, as you might know, is to help you lead like never before. And that's simply the goal of this is we just wanna help you and your team lead like never before. So if I can do that in some small way today, I'm so grateful. So just thanks for being awesome. Thanks for such an enthusiastic response so far. And today, I'm really excited to introduce you to today's guest who is Perry Noble. Now, Perry is the lead pastor and the founding pastor of New Spring Church in Anderson, South Carolina. It is a church on a mission to reach a hundred thousand people in South Carolina. Like that's crazy, isn't it? I mean, they've had over 50,000 at Easter before. You'll hear in this episode, Perry said like, how many people were at church on Sunday, Perry? And he's like, ah, 36,000. That's crazy. But God is using him in a really powerful way. Now, I don't know how you respond when you hear a story like that. I mean, some of you are probably like your cynical. You're like, is that for real? Is that legit? Some of us are probably like, well, if I had a church that was growing that fast, I wouldn't have any problems. (laughs) But that's why I'm so excited about having Perry here is we're gonna get very authentic, very real and actually quite raw and transparent very quickly in this episode because when New Spring had never been bigger, never been growing faster, Perry experienced just a depression and an emotional crash that led him even to suicidal thoughts. I'm not gonna sort of preclude the interview. I wanna make sure you jump in that very quickly. But it's so surprising that when you're kind of at the top as a leader, you can actually feel like you're at the bottom as a person. And I am so grateful that that is something that Perry has started to talk about publicly. In fact, he wrote a book, released a book and a few months ago called Overwhelmed, which if you haven't read, you should read. But I gotta tell you, what I think is gonna be so helpful 'cause I talk to a lot of leaders is, I think all of us go through low periods and whether you've ever struggled with depression or anxiety or not, we have all felt overwhelmed as leaders. And Perry's interview today is just so real, so authentic, I really hope it's gonna be helpful. And I hope it cracks open a dialogue. In fact, one of the things, if this is resonating with you, that you may wanna do is you may wanna check out the show notes because Perry is just so transparent in this interview, it may trigger some stuff in you or you realize, ah, I think I'm struggling more than I thought. We have all kinds of helpful resources if that's you in the show notes today. And you can find those as always, just on my blog at karaenuhoff.com. These will be at karaenuhoff.com/episode2. And Perry and his team have put that together. And so we've got that all there, I'll link back to it after the interview. But in the meantime, I think the very best thing we could do is just jump right in. So here is my conversation with Perry Noble, the lead pastor of New Spring Church. Well, I'm so excited to have my friend, Perry Noble on the podcast today. Hey, Perry. - How you doing, Kerry? - Good, thanks for helping us kick it off. In these early days, you are episode number two, which is a lot of fun. Well, I know that Andy was episode number one, and that's appropriate because I feel like all my life, I've been following Andy Stanley. So if I can just be right after him, I feel like I'm in a pretty good place in life. - Well, I had a strategy. I look for everybody who had a leadership podcast and called it the Perry Noble or the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. And because this is the Kerry Newhof Leadership Podcast, now I hope we're all friends and I've kind of co-opted you. So is that okay? - Well, Kerry, your own leadership podcast debuted at number one, and I think mine debuted at number 1,478,000. So to be associated with you and Andy in the same sentence, I mean, I'm calling that a win. - Hey, Perry, it is a real thrill, honestly, to have you here. God's written a really amazing story in the life of New Spring Church. But in the middle of it, and that's what I really wanna talk about today, 'cause when we were talking about coming on the podcast, I said, you know, what do you wanna talk about? And you've recently gone public with the story of how you almost had to exit leadership because of being completely overwhelmed by all the success and all the things that were happening in your life. So as a young leader, you're pastoring one of the fastest growing churches in America, one of the largest churches in America, and you hit rock bottom personally. Tell us about that. I mean, you even, I mean, you opened the book talking about wanting to kill yourself while you're in the middle of leading God's church. Catch us up on that story. Yeah, so it was interesting because I'd always thought that hitting rock bottom meant that you had overwhelmingly bad circumstances. I didn't know that there were other things that could push you in that direction. And so just a quick history of our church, we started in the year 2000, officially. We had about 15 people in the living room and it started growing. And in about the year 2002, we went from 500 to 1600 in six weeks. Wow. People hear that story and they want to know what happened and we still don't really know because social media wasn't even out yet, right? I mean, we're still using dial-up internet. And so it wasn't a billboard campaign or newspapers. And well, we couldn't afford newspapers back then. And so what happened then is the church began to grow at a very rapid pace. And so my attitude was, as a young leader, well, I can handle this and I've got to stay ahead of the church and I've got to stay ahead of the game and I've got to grow and grow and grow. And we did a campaign, we built a building, we did everything that I thought was supposed to make us successful. And then criticism started coming our way and I didn't know that there were that many mean people out there, but the internet has proved that to be true. And I took that very personally and didn't know how to react to that. And so it wasn't just one thing because usually when somebody snaps, so you'll see a story online of somebody snapped or somebody did something insane. And people asked the wrong question. They said, well, what was the one thing caused them to snap? Well, it wasn't one thing. It never is one thing. It's the culmination of several things. And for some people, it might be layers and layers or even years and years and years of unhealthy patterns in their life, especially as leaders, because we are the quickest people on the planet to develop unhealthy patterns in our own life, but then we call them leadership. And we just say, we're leading the charge or we're trying to lead the way or whatever. And so I went out to dinner with my wife in 2008, I believe it was, and I told her, I was like, the church is growing, we're seeing people come to Christ, we're starting multi-site, we're seeing all these amazing things happen and I hate my life. - Wow. - And I mean, Carrie, I really seriously contemplated suicide on more than one occasion. And it's just one of those places that, you know, I had a friend say this, it's kind of like eating at Denny's, nobody goes there intentionally, but you just kind of lined up there sometimes. And that's what happened to me. I mean, if you would have asked me when I started, hey, what's your goal in leadership? I wouldn't say, I would not have said, I want to get to the place for one day, I want to take my life. - Sure. - But I got there and it happened over a period of time. - That's unbelievable. And you said something that really caught my attention. I mean, you said a number of things, but one of the things you said is leaders develop really unhealthy patterns and a multiplicity of unhealthy patterns and we call it leadership. That's a great insight. So tell me, what were some of the unhealthy patterns either that you saw developing in your own life or you've seen in other leaders that lead you to the place where you're so depressed and as successful as you are, you just don't want it and you can't handle it? - Well, here's the number one thing I've identified, Kerry, and I don't like it when leaders talk about this. - Right. - In fact, when I was younger in my leadership and people would talk about this, I would, well, I'd fast forward through the tape. We had tapes, you remember tapes. - Sure, I do remember tapes. - Fast forward through the tape or skip that track on the CD, but I think one of the most unhealthy patterns for the leaders is that we'll get into a season of where maybe things are growing or things are going well or things are doing good. And during that season, we rev up our engines so much that we never take a day off. We never take a day of rest. We never take time to just catch our breath. And what I found fascinating when I had to go back and kind of research where I was is in the 10 commandments, the longest commandment that God takes the most time to explain is the one on rest. He spends more time explaining rest. I mean, you shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall, you know, those are pretty simple. But the one on rest, if you go and look at those in Exodus 20, he spends more time on rest. And so I remember I was seeing I'm a really good Christian counselor and he told me, and this is the phrase that stuck with me. He said, "The Bible calls people who will not work lazy." And as leaders, we love that. I mean, yes, right. He said, but then he followed it up with, "But he calls those who will not rest disobedient." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." And I used to use the phrase, I remember how another mentor confront me. He's like, "You need to slow down and take a day off." And I was like, "Well, the devil never takes a day off." And then he threw by to me and said, "Well, the devil's not supposed to be your example." If you'll read through the last week of Jesus when he was here on earth, you can't find one single thing that Jesus did on the Sabbath, his last week on earth. So if the son of God, before he gave his life, took a day off on the last week of his life, then I think all of us should learn how to take a day off and breathe and kind of let ourself rest, even when we don't think we need it. Because when we don't think we need it is actually when we usually need it the most. - That's a really good insight. And I think, I mean, you're definitely laying into one of my vices. And it's one of those acceptable sins, right? We jump on people for sexual sin and drug abuse or being drunk or all the obvious sins. But you know, Christian sins like gluttony or gossip or other things that we just kind of excuse in the church. Overworking is one of those things. And I mean, it's been a lifelong struggle for me. I just love my job. I love to work and sometimes I work too hard. And I mean, I'm resonating with what you're saying because around just a couple of years before you, I got into a place of burnout and it is a very, very dark place. Now, how old were you around this time while your church was growing? You're a leader in your 20s, your 30s. I mean, you were a young leader. You were just out of the gate on this stuff, right? - I was 28 when we started the church. - Wow. - And then, so I went through this in my late 30s, early 40s and some people call it the midlife crisis. But I mean, I didn't go like Bach, Corvette or anything like that, which nothing's wrong with that. I'm going to buy Camaro one day. But I think I was, and it wasn't just getting older. It was trying to maintain a just unfathomable speed of life. And like you said, it's the acceptable sin. In fact, Kerry, here's the thing that church leaders, sometimes we can get caught up in the praise of people because people in the church will praise you for working yourself to death. - Yeah. - They will go, oh, he's such a hard worker. She's such a hard worker. They're always there. They're the first to get there. They're the last to leave. They're always doing, they're always going overboard. And then they will sing your praises right up until you get into your coffin and then they'll forget about you. - Yeah. - And so we can get so addicted to positive things that they said about us, that it can push us over, it can push us into the, oh my gosh, the world can't live without me. I can't rest. - It's a rewarded addiction, you're right. I mean, if you're drinking out of a bottle, if you're popping pills, if you're having an affair, nobody in the church rewards that. But in leadership and in life, people reward over work. They really do. And I mean, there's an internal trigger. I've talked to friends who are workaholics and I don't exactly understand brain physiology, but there is a reward center. And there's an adrenaline that kicks in when you're working hard and making things happen too. Definitely. - Well, the whole adrenaline thing, I mean, that's something that leaders can get addicted to, especially if you're a pastor and you're preaching every week. That's, I mean, I've done a good bit of research on that just to figure out why I was so jacked up. And it's one of those things that once, like you said, we can get addicted to it. And so much so that we're looking on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram to see, I mean, if our biggest like highlights of the day is how many people liked our Instagram picture, or commented on our Facebook page, or retweeted us. And they're leaders that really are sincerely caught up in those things. And if you're caught up in those things, you're so addicted to the praise of people. And the reason I know that so well, Carrie, is 'cause I was there. I was so caught up in what people were saying about me, that I had really lost sight of what the Lord was saying about me. And I lost sight on what He had called me to. And what can happen is the vocal minority can become the majority in our mind because we're so obsessed with the opinions of others. - No, it's very true. And if you're gonna ride the highs that high, you've also got to be prepared to ride the lows. We were joking about the podcast debuting at number one, which it did in Canada and the US, which is amazing. And then a few days later, I went back to find it. It was like number 193 or something like that, right? - Yeah, I was 194 that day. So you still had a meme. (laughing) - But it's one of those things where, if you're gonna ride that high, you're also gonna ride the lows too. And so you have to be so careful, because I think as leaders, we also go through seasons where a church isn't growing as fast as we want it to grow. And you end up really being a victim of the very thing that you were addicted to in the first place. And I'm glad you mentioned your age. I say that. It's funny. I was like early, early 40s, maybe 40, 41, when I hit my crash. And I talked to a lot of leaders in that sort of late 30s, early 40 season. And you're right. I didn't buy a sports car. I didn't cheat on my wife by the grace of God. I didn't do anything stupid. But I mean, I had some very dark days where I thought I can't go on. I just, I can't go on. I don't know why it seems to afflict, particularly a lot of guys around that phase, but it does. And so I'm glad we're having this discussion. This is a hard discussion to have in the church, isn't it? Have you found that? - Oh my gosh. When I first preached on it, I remember we were sitting around talking about it as a leadership team. And I just said, hey, I wanna do a series in our church. I wanna call it overwhelmed. And I wanna do a whole message on how I wanted to kill myself and just how I got there and how the Lord sent me free from it. And we didn't do it to say, you know, because you have this series like, hey, we're gonna do the marriage series or the sex series or whatever. And a lot of people will show up. Well, we did this in a time period where typically it's not a prom time for people to come to church, but I just said, I just wanna share with people what I've struggled with. It was the most up at, up until that time in our history, it was the most attended series we'd ever had. The message on suicide, even so far to this day, is the most viewed message on our website. And it was, it gave people permission to say, you know what, I'm not okay, but I've never felt the freedom to talk about it. Because if you talk about depression, anxiety, if you take anxiety medicine, I'm more anti-depressant, you're somehow made to feel in many cases, and in many cases, not intentionally, but in many cases, you're made to feel like a second class citizen. And so one of the phrases we came up with, and we just kind of said at that series, and we've said ever since, it's okay to not be okay. It's just not okay to stay that way. And so the only way to break the power that that feeling has over you is to actually talk to someone, confess it, have a conversation, and get the healing process started. - I really appreciate that, you know, as much as I agree with you, I really do, and I'm so thankful we're having this discussion. There are people listening to this podcast, and I know they're not all Christians or business leaders listening as well, who would say in the church, or maybe some would be surprised to find out, that there are actually Christians who believe that you can't have suicidal thoughts and be a Christian. Have you run into that attitude? - Oh my gosh, yeah, and the problem with that is the Bible, because I love how vulnerable the people are in Scripture. Jonah, when he was running from God, in Jonah chapter one, when he told the sailors to throw him overboard, what was he doing? He was committing suicide. He knew, he did not say, 'cause he had not read the book of Jonah. He didn't know there was a fish that was gonna swallow him. And, you know, so he was trying to end his own life. Moses and Elijah, both Godly men prayed for God to kill them. Both of them said, "God, would you please kill me?" Paul, I believe in 2 Corinthians, wrote that there was a point in his ministry where, quote, "He despaired even of his own life." And so the myth that we've bought into is that Godly people don't deal with depression, you know, thoughts, even suicidal thoughts. But the truth is that we do, we all have. We've all felt, if not a suicidal thought, we've all felt overwhelmed, anxious, and not quite sure how we're going to get through the next day. So I think the first step in really dealing with this is to stop trying to pretend that we've got it all together when we don't have it all together. Because that's the other temptation, Kerry, is we feel like as leaders, we always have to have it all together. And as we read the Bible, other than Jesus, there's not an example of a leader who always had it all together. - I think you can almost hear the relief coming to people who are like, man, I feel this way, maybe not suicidal, maybe some are suicidal, but like so overwhelmed, but there's that pressure to feel like you've got it all together when deep inside you're crumbling. And I don't know a single leader who hasn't gone through some form of that. So let me ask you, just, I don't know if this is a morbid question or what, but what were some of the most unhelpful or cruel things people said to you when you were going through this? - Okay, so one of the things that happens is, and this happens with anybody in leadership, where people begin to judge the personality when they don't know the person. And so because of something you said, or because of a one minute YouTube clip, I'm gonna make assumptions based on who you are rather than getting to know you. So I remember there was a time period during this, I mean, it was a pretty intense battle where I could not, after a service, I used to go walk down in the lobby or I used to stand outside and talk to people, and I couldn't, it's not that I didn't want to, it's not that I didn't love people, it's not that I did not appreciate everybody in our church, it's just that I was dealing with severe anxiety in crowds. And so I would go and sit in a room and just kind of, you know, my wife would be back there and my daughter and I would do that between services. And then I remember somebody taking a shot at me and saying, well, if he loved God enough, he would come out of his green room and talk to people. - Oh boy. - And I just remember, Kerry, that just about being the straw that broke the camel's back because then I started thinking, well, I guess if I did love God, I would be out there suffering for, you know, but it was a real battle, it was a real struggle. And then people that don't understand your world, trying to speak into your world. And once again, it's giving the vocal minority, the majority opinion in your mind. And that's just not a healthy thing to do. And so that's some of the things that people, that's just one example of some hurtful things that people would say, but we'll always criticize what we don't understand. And so it's easy to talk about how screwed up your life is when I feel either number one, I don't wanna deal with my areas where I'm falling short, or number two, I just don't understand what you're going through. - Yeah, and I think if you've gone through that, like, you know, our stories are different, but there's a little bit of parallel there. I remember when I was at the bottom, you know, I'm like you, I'm over six feet tall, I'm a big guy, a couple hundred pounds, and my wife is five foot three, a hundred pound soaking wet, and I would hide behind her in crowds because I didn't wanna talk to people. - Yeah. - And it wasn't that I didn't want to, I just couldn't. I didn't have the vocabulary at the bottom. I was, I didn't wanna go outside of the house. I mean, I got out of bed every day, but it's just a terrible, terrible place to be in. Let's backtrack a little bit, Perry. This has been so, so helpful. And I think it's explaining a lot of what people either have gone through or are going through or maybe are right on the cusp of. So this didn't happen overnight. You talked about 2002 to 2008. So looking back in the rear view mirror, were there warning signs along the way? Like you didn't get to the point of wanting to end your life, just woke up one day and that was it. Your heart started to close or what happened to you? Were there cumulative signs or was it really very sudden? - No, as I look back, I mean, hindsight's always 20/20, right? As I look back, there were cumulative signs. Like for example, one of the things my counselor asked me, the very first time I sat down with him and it was either 2009 or 2010. I can't remember right off the top of my head. But he asked me this question and he said, "What do you do for fun?" And I said, "I'll work out." And his comment back to me was, "If you're having fun, you're not doing it right." Because working out is supposed to be, I mean, if you do it right, you take yourself to a near-death experience every time you do. And that's the way I work out. I'm an extreme person. - Right. Sure. - And so I could not carry, tell him, like some people hunt, some people fish, some people golf. I could not tell him one single thing that I did for fun. And that's one of those things where leaders, almost, if you're a church leader, you're made to feel guilty sometimes for having fun. But I've always found this story fascinating in the gospels. You remember the story where Jesus tells Peter, he asked him about the temple tax. And then Peter said, "Yeah, yeah, we should pay it." And then Jesus says, "Hey, go down, catch fish. When you catch fish, there'll be a coin in his mouth and take it and pay her taxes." - Yeah, sure. - And I've heard people say, "Well, that story is just to show how poor Jesus was." Which first of all, he's the son of God that created the world, he was not poor. Second reason we know he wasn't poor is because he had Judas. Judas was his treasurer. How many broke homeless people do you know with a treasurer? So I believe, and I remember just seeing this in that story one day and it set me free. Peter, before he met Jesus, was a fisherman. Fishing was probably something he enjoyed. Fishing was something that he did work, but he probably got a release from it as well. So Jesus asked Peter to go do something that he enjoyed. When he was doing something he enjoyed, he found a treasure that he never would have found if he had not been doing something that he enjoyed that was able to help him pay the price or pay the tax. And then I thought about the fact that there are so many times, and you've experienced this. Every leader that's listening to this experience has thought, has had this. There are times when you get relaxed, when you get in an environment, when you start having fun, that you have the best ideas, you have the best thoughts, you have the best solutions, you get the answer to the question and the reason why is your mind is relaxed. How many leaders right now, Kerry, do you say, I mean, look, okay, let's just, how many great ideas have you had in the shower? Oh yeah. I've taught to so many leaders and they go, I've had so many great ideas in the shower, I don't know why it is. And the answer is simple, when you're in the shower, you're not thinking about anything other than taking a shower. Nobody, very few people getting a shower go, hey, I gotta make a couple calls. I mean, that's weird if you call somebody in the shower. That's just weird. I think you can get electrocuted and maybe you lose a few phones that way. But when you're in the shower, your mind is shut down. And when your mind is shut down, you can have some great ideas. So what if we as leaders, like, took God at His word, took one day a week and just did something fun that we enjoyed because what happens, because listen, a fully charged leader can accomplish more than a partially charged leader. Every time, give me a fully charged iPhone battery over a partially charged iPhone battery, I'll take it eight days a week. And so that's one of the things I realized, I wasn't having fun, I wasn't resting. And then I wasn't just being honest with people. I tell 'em, yeah, I'm fine, everything's great. - Sure. - And when actually I was slowing down and kind of crumbling inside a little bit for a while. - Again, this is part of church culture as well. I really appreciate the point about feeling guilty about taking time off. I don't know that that's anything I've really gotten over. And what I've found, and I'm sure this is true in your experience, somebody from church, probably, or somebody from work, probably ask you to do something on your day off that you said no to. And then, no, I'm not available to come to the party or I'm not available to do this, or no, I'm sorry, I can't help out with that. And then you almost don't wanna be seen with your family. You almost don't wanna be seen out for bike ride or get caught at the dock or on a boat or whatever, because when they see you, it's sort of like, well, you didn't have anything to do anyway, and so why didn't you help me out? And it's just a funky space we get into sometimes in church world, great point. - Leaders, one of our biggest problems, Carrie, and I had to realize this, and it seems harsh at first until you really think about it, is one of the biggest problems that church leaders have is we allow everyone to define what an emergency is for us. - Yes. - And there are legitimate emergencies that as church leaders, we've got to deal with. I mean, there are some situations where the fault, I mean, one of the things about any church leader listening right now, or any leader, non-church leader, is your entire day or week can change with one phone call or one email, because legitimate emergencies take place. Somebody dies, somebody gets really sick, somebody gets a bad medical report. The problem though, as leaders, is we take that to the extreme, and we allow everyone to define what an emergency is for us, and if we do that, then somebody's got a cold, turns into an emergency. And it's one of those situations where, like for example, one of the things I love doing is I love going out on the lake, and on the days that I'm on the lake, I turn my phone on silent, I put it in the little glove box of the boat, and my wife and my daughter are with me, they're the two most important people on the planet in my life, and I'll check the phone when I come in, maybe for a restroom break, or when I come in to put some more gas in the boat, and that's about it. - That's great. Now, that's interesting, 'cause let's drill down on that, 'cause a lot of people, and I mean, this is true, I've led small churches, and now that's somewhat larger church, but there's an urgent thing going on in somebody's life all the time. So if you've got 50 people, somebody probably had a bad week, somebody's in the hospital, in a church your size, give us the current numbers right now, and by the time this airs, they'll probably have grown again. So how many people attend New Spring right now, and how many campuses? - We just, yesterday we had around 36,000 people show up on 10 different campuses, and so it's been one of those things that we kind of, we're really amazed by it, we're really in awe of it, but the thing that I've tried to teach into our church, and I've tried to teach this since day one. I've told people, I'm probably not gonna come see you in the hospital, I might not even preach your funeral, but I've tried to teach our church this concept, that the church is not effective when the pastor ministers to the people, the church is effective when the body ministers to the body, because if, as leaders, we don't teach the body how to minister to the body, we're gonna cap out at about 110, 120 people, because that's all the people we can take care of. - Right on. - But when you create a culture where it's not dependent upon one person, but it's dependent on all of us, it really can grow beyond us, because we've created a culture that doesn't depend on us to be at everything, every time something bad takes place. - Totally appreciate that, Perry, and that's why I ask the question, because if you've got basically a city attending your church, 36,000 people over 10 campuses, you could be busy every day for the rest of your life, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, because there are legitimate crises happening every single day in your church. But again, if it all points back to you, I mean, you'll never have a day off, and it's so if Perry Noble can take a day off, I can probably take a day off, and you can probably take a day off. That's a really, really good point. So what helped you get better? You're in the place, I've heard you talk about, reaching bottoms, starting to talk about it, going to see a counselor. Tell us about that process, and then what helped you in your recovery? - The biggest thing that helped me was finally admitting to people that I was struggling with it. I told my best friend about it. My wife didn't even know. And we talked about that afterwards, and I was like, well, I just didn't know how to tell you I wanted to end my life. I don't know how to have that conversation over dinner. And so it was something I was ashamed of. It was something I felt guilty about, but it was something I didn't know how to get past. I'll be honest with you, Kerry, when I received Christ in 1990, I didn't, but I had a pornography addiction. I did not break the pornography addiction until 1999. It took me nine years. And the guilt and the shame that I felt was so immense and so terrible, but I finally broke that addiction in 1999. The guilt and the shame I felt for this depression and anxiety was a hundred times worse than the guilt and shame that I'd felt with a pornography addiction. - Really? - Yeah. 'Cause I just didn't want people to know. And so I remember the very first conversation I had with anybody, one of my best friends, he's been one of my best friends since high school. And I told him I wanted to kill myself. And from that moment, that feeling lost its grip in my life. Because when you actually confess out loud that you're struggling with something, and that's what James the brother, Jesus said in James 516, if we confess our sins to each other. - To each other? - Yeah, to each other. And pray for each other, we'll be healed. A lot of people have been forgiven for their sin, but they've never been healed because they've never confessed it. And there's a big difference between being forgiven and being healed. And I learned the power of being healed by confessing that out loud and just telling somebody, "Hey, I'm wrestling." And because I told him I was able to tell my leadership team, I was able to find a good Christian counselor who was able to walk me through some things and navigate me through some things. And I just say, one week of counseling or two sessions of counseling is not gonna fix a screwed up life. - No. - What you reap is what you sow. And so all that stuff that I sowed into my life, I had to reap that. And now, even now, I'm in the process of trying to sow really good seed into my life. So five, 10, 15 years from now, I can reap that really good seed. - Oh, that's great insight. And by the way, we'll link to this in the show notes, but Perry has not only done a sermon series about it. Is that still online, Perry? I remember when you blogged about it and everything when it first came out. So we'll link to that. - Yes, we've got CC is all of our sermons. We've done two series on Overwhelmed. One was several years ago and one was recently. And so both of them are online at newspring.cc. - That's great. And we'll also link to the book that Perry wrote about this called Overwhelmed, which is an incredible book. I mean, you just kind of outline what happened and how bad it got and some of the steps. So if you want more, those will be in the show notes. So, but saying it out loud, acknowledging it, overcoming the shame, counseling, ongoing counseling. And I mean, I can relate to that. I've been in and out of the counselor's office for about 12 years now. And I think it's one of the main reasons, one of the main things God has used for the fact that I'm still able to be in leadership today and actually love it and enjoy it and have a life and have healthier relationships. So that's so, so helpful. Let's dig into this question. And when we were going back and forth prior to this interview, your office had suggested I ask this question, I so appreciate it. What are your thoughts about using prescription medication for depression or anxiety? Because in my experience, sometimes, you know, I've never gone on medication. I came out of my depression and my anxiety, but not everybody finds it that easy. And I know long-term Christians who are on medication for that. Is that, what do you think about that? - Yeah, I think it's awesome. I think it's great. I think I praise God for meds. My first bout with it, so my first bout with depression and anxiety, I didn't have to have any medication. I talked to my doctor about it. My wife is a medical doctor, so I told her extensively about it. And I didn't feel like I needed it. My doctor didn't feel like I needed it. And so I went to a counselor. And let me just pause and say this. Every church leader needs to go see a counselor, because normal people that have great days don't call us. Like nobody's ever called me and said, "Hey, period, I just want to let you know. I've loved my wife, like Jesus loves the church today. I've spent a lot of time with my kids. I was ethical in every decision that I've made. And I was able to tell 17 people about Christ. And I'm going to give some extra money at church this week. I've never gotten that call. If I did get that call, I would know their own drugs. And so there's a bigger problem. And so all of us need to talk to somebody, even if it's just, let me tell you how messed up my week was. We need that release. So the first bout I had with it, I came through pretty good. Well, after like right as I released the book though, and it was so funny, 'cause as I wrote the book, I started dealing with all those feelings again. And I was like, where are these coming from? And I finally got in touch with my doctor and I was like, hey man, listen, I'm freaking out. I mean, I can't even go to Chick-fil-A without having a meltdown while I'm standing in line. And he told me, he said, I think it's time we try you on some anti-anxiety medicine or anti... I can't remember if it's anti-anxiety or anti-depressant. One of those. And so whatever it was he put me on, it took about six weeks, and man, almost the most mellow person in the world. And so, and this was after the book release. So I just had a chance to even talk about it in the book, but here's the thing that I discovered. If you had something wrong with your liver and your liver was shutting down and you went to the doctor and he said, hey, your liver's shutting down, but this is a pill. And if you'll take it over a period of two weeks, it'll completely heal your liver. Well, you would take that pill. Everybody listening to this podcast would take that pill. It's like it would save your life. Same thing with your heart. You've got a heart condition, but we've got some medication. And if you'll take this medication, it'll repair your heart and you'll live longer. Well, everybody's gonna take that medication. Well, the same thing is true for the brain. The brain, just like the heart and the liver, is an organ in the body. And if something's wrong with the brain medically, there's a chemical imbalance in the brain. And God, through common grace, has given us science and medicine to be able to fix that problem. Then we shouldn't try just to pray that problem away. If God has given us medicine to try to heal that problem, then I think we should take it. I don't think we should run to a pill every time we have a problem. I'm not that guy. I've fought through it. And so right now, it's what, September, this year's going by so fast. - Yeah, it is. - In September, I'm supposed to cycle off of this medication this December. This December, I will have been on this medication for one year. And my doctor said, we're gonna try it for one year, and then we're gonna try to cycle you off to see if that works. And so I'm on the plan. I'm in December, I'm gonna try to cycle off. And maybe it's something I have to commit to for the rest of my life. Maybe it's something I needed for a season. I don't know, but what I do know is this. It's helped me navigate through the season. And so if somebody's out there and they feel like, and they've talked to their doctor and their doctor wants to put them on this medicine, it does not put you in the spiritually subpar category to have to take something that God designed I believe to help you out. - Completely appreciate that, Perry. Thanks so much for talking about that. So what is this done in terms of being able to come alongside other people or other leaders who have similar struggles? And what has it done for the dialogue at New Spring, your church, your community? - You know what it did for me, Kerry? And this is another sign that you're really wrestling with us. When I started going through this in 2007, '89, and really my compassion level for people was just going to an all-time low. Like people would say, oh, I have a bad day. And you don't say this out loud, but like, I'm like, if I were you, I'd have a bad day too. You know, leaders don't say that, but we think it. - Yeah, sure we do. - If we, if you said half of the stuff we thought, well, not only-- - Yeah, we wouldn't be leaders if we said half the stuff we thought. - Well, not only would we not be in ministry, we wouldn't be alive. - Yeah, that's true. - So that's taken us out by now. And so my compassion levels for people started decreasing, but here's something, you know, because God uses all things for good. And that's a really cool verse that you can sign on a card if you want to encourage somebody. But I know it's true because what God did, I wanted him to deliver me from this. He delivered me through it. And there's a big difference. And in that process, Kerry, what he did is he increased my compassion levels for people. And so now on the other end of it, I can hear somebody hurting and think, man, this is legit. And even if it's, I'm going to stop and pray with this person for 30 seconds, or if I'm going to put them in touch with somebody, or I'm going to get them help, it's helped me to see people, I believe like Jesus saw people. So Jesus used this in me to kind of crush that pride in me of, hey, I've got it all together and I'm leading the charge. And I've been able to look at people and say, man, you know what, I don't understand what you're going through, but your situation is serious. And let me try to come alongside of you and help you. That's one of the biggest things that's done in me. - I can, I so relate to that, because I mean, compassion is not one of my gifts, so I completely get that. Before I burned out, my compassion was really low. In fact, I think that's a sign of burnout when your heart isn't working, right? When you don't feel the highs and you don't feel the lows anymore. And I'm just looking at it up right now, but I did a blog post, yeah, that's what I thought. I did a blog post about a year ago on my burnout. I'll link to that in the show notes. And Perry, there's been, you know, I read a blog, like you read a blog. There's been an ongoing dialogue and every few days I hear from somebody who's going through burnout on one of those two posts. And I mean, everyone, I don't answer all of the comments on my blog, but every one of those, I'm like, you just feel for that person. And I'm cheering for them and I'm praying for them. And it's like people just accidentally stumble on that post when they're googling something. And then it's like, they find this oasis and it's like, ah, somebody I can talk to. And if you're a leader or just a listener who's struggling with depression, I just hope this has really encouraged you because you're not alone. And everybody to some extent or another goes through this and high capacity, great leaders, faithful people go through this. And it's not a sign of weakness. It's a sign that you're alive when we live in a broken world and none of us is exempt from that. So if there is somebody listening to this parry and they're beginning to realize, man, I'm in the thick of this or I'm at my lowest or wonder if I'm burning out. And again, we'll link to some of those things in the show notes, but what advice would you have for them? What step could they take today as a result of listening to this podcast that could help them at least break some of the darkness? Any advice? - Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is 15 years ago, if I were to listen to this podcast, I would have dismissed it and thought, oh my gosh, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nobody deals with that. So if that's you and you're not dealing with this, man, praise, he's God for that. But earmarked this because you're gonna wanna come back to it. I would say to the person that's struggling, here's what I would be willing to say. Number one, if they're struggling, most likely they haven't told anybody because they feel shame. I mean, you don't need to feel shame because you're struggling as a leader to maintain or keep up or you've got a heavy weight on you. You don't need to feel shame. So you need to talk to somebody. The second thing I would tell you is find a good biblical counselor, someone who can sit down with you and walk you through, listen, here's what's weird about a biblical counselor. They'll walk you through passages of the Bible you already know and you believe them for other people. You just don't believe them for you. And then the third is just be transparent. And if, 'cause here's the thing I've discovered and I think you would agree with this, Carrie, as a preacher and as a leader, I've discovered that people identify way more with my struggles than they do my victories. - Absolutely. - If you're the hero of every sermon illustration you use, your people don't relate to you. But if you get up and say, man, I got really ticked and kind of let a cuss word fly this week when somebody pulled out in front of me. Well, you've got the religious people are, I can't believe that. But then the other 99% of your church is going up. I do the same thing. How do I navigate through that? And so just don't make up stories about how ungodly you are, but if you struggle, be honest with that to the people you lead because that helps them to be able to understand you better. - No, I totally think that's great advice. And in my case, there's lots of material to share out on my weaknesses. I'm never going to run out of material on that. - Never. - Not me. - And I do think you're right. I think people admire your strengths, but they resonate with your weaknesses. They're just like, you know what? And they see themselves in that. Well, Perry, this has been super, super helpful. We'll have all the details for you in the show notes. But before I let you go, 'cause it's just, it's a lot of fun. What's red hot on your leadership radar right now? What are you thinking about? What's got you passionate? And what's got you fired up about the future? - I think Kerry, the thing that I'm seeing right now, and I'm seeing it, it hasn't gained a lot of momentum yet, but I'm seeing it kind of under the surface is the hope that young leaders are have in regards to the church. I mean, you know, for the past 15 or 20 years, all we've seen in leadership world are articles and books and resources and blogs about how the church is in trouble and how the church is going to go out of business and how the church, nobody wants to go to the church and everybody hates the church and we should all just give up if we work in the church. But I'm seeing something, and it's happened in the past year or two among young evangelical leaders where there is hope and life and kind of a vibrant attitude and a coming back into the church. And they're just not willing to accept that God has done with it. They're not willing to accept that Jesus has other plans. They really are committing to the cause of the local church. And I'm seeing that right now and that has me more excited than just about anything in leadership 'cause I believe if a leader isn't optimistic then whatever he or she leads is never going to attain its full potential. And so we don't have to be naive, but I do think we, one of the things in my heart I always say is the best is yet to come. I'll believe that. I'll believe that for individuals. I'll believe that for the church. And I'm seeing that right now and that has me so excited about on what's gonna happen in the church the next 10 to 20 years. - And that's got me excited about it too. And that's one of the things. It's a good way to sort of end this interview because here you are as a leader. You were absolutely in the ditch just a handful of years ago. It's something you're gonna have to work through for the rest of your life. How you said, you know, God didn't deliver me from it, but he did lead me through it. I think that's a really good insight. And yet you've got a lot of optimism. I remember the last time we talked I wanted questions I asked you was, you know, so Perry of all the people I follow on social media nobody's more excited about the next Sunday. Like is every Sunday really gonna be the best Sunday ever? And I'll never forget your answer. Do you remember that conversation? Tell them what people said. Yeah, tell them what you said. - I was like, why can't next Sunday be the best Sunday ever? - Yeah. - Why can't it be? Why do we always have to say we've achieved our best and it's downhill from here. And that's a lot of leaders motto. It's downhill from here. Well, if you believe that then step out of leadership and let somebody step in that can lead the thing because here's the thing when I was depressed every day when my feet hit the ground, hope was the thing that kept me going. 'Cause I was like, maybe this is the day this breaks and maybe this is the day it loses its grip and maybe this is the day I feel this weight lift off my shoulders. Hope got me out of bed every single day. Hope gets me showing up at the office. Hope takes me home every night to be with my wife and my little girl. Hope is what keeps me going when nothing else keeps me going. And so when I say the next Sunday is the best Sunday ever I really do believe that with all of my heart. And I won't back off of it because what's the alternative? A leader tweeting, hey, this Sunday's really gonna stink at our church. Be sure to not show up. - I don't even want to go. - I don't even want to go. Let's hang out. Like nobody wants to, but I really in my heart believe that the best is yet to come. And I believe that in leadership and I believe that in life. - Oh man, that's fantastic, Perry. Thank you so much for spending time with our leaders today, with our listeners today. People will want to track with you more. What's the easiest way for them to find you or get in touch? - Perrynoble.com is my website and it's blogs, Instagram, Facebook, carrier pigeons, whatever else. However else we communicate. It's all right there at Perrynoble.com. - Awesome. Perry, thanks so much. Well, you don't hear many conversations like that very often do you? But I'll tell you, this is why I'm so excited about this podcast is I think we need conversations like that. And I can imagine that some of you maybe like myself or like Perry are in a place where you're going, you know what? I think I might be struggling more than I thought. I was struggling. And if that's you, there is help. Perry and I and his team have put together some show notes for you. You can just go to my blog, carrynewhough.com/episode2. And as Perry reminded me, he said, "Kerry, you need to spell your name." It's confusing. Sure, so here it is. C-A-R-E-Y, N-I-E-U-W-H-O-F/episode numeral two. And you'll find all the show notes there. And there's links to Perry's book and to his church and to the teaching series he refers to. I've got some other links that I hope can help you if you're in that place. Or maybe it's not you. Maybe there's just, maybe it's somebody on your team or a good friend that's going through a tough time. We need to have that conversation in the church. And if this helps some way, man, I am so, so grateful for that. So thanks so much for listening in. Again, the show notes are at carrynewhough.com/episode2. Now, if you have found this podcast helpful, we would love to hear from you. Leave a comment on the blog at that link. Or just go to iTunes and leave us a rating and review. Whatever iTunes store you're in. And that really helps this get out there. And iTunes pays attention and then puts it out in front of other leaders when you do that kind of thing. So thank you so much for doing that. I've also got some social media tweets sort of pre-made on the show notes. So if you want to share the message, Perry said some really important things. If you want to get that out there to the people who follow you on Facebook, Twitter, Google LinkedIn, so on, all the links are there. And you can get that out on social media. So thank you so much for the conversation. Hey, today's podcast is sponsored by the Orange Tour. It's a US tour by Orange that helps you take your family ministry and your leadership team to the next level. Now, I'm pretty excited to be in seven cities this fall. The tour is in process. And actually the day that this episode airs, I'm in San Diego. So if you're there, hey, it is fun to be hanging out. And my next stop is in Washington, DC on October the 7th. And then I'll be in Indianapolis, Indiana on October 17th. So we're going to be there. I would love to host you for lunch. In fact, on both those days in DC on the 7th and in Indianapolis on October 17th, I'm hosting a leaders lunch. And I would love for you to come to lunch. We can connect. We can talk leadership. It'd be great to connect personally. Just go to orangetour.org. And you can register there or drop by the blog, carrynewhop.com. And we can have a conversation there. And you can register right off of that. Now, before we go, I've got one more really exciting announcement to make. And that is we've decided to make the podcast weekly. That's right. A lot of you have asked about it. And we weren't sure when we got this thing launched, whether we could keep up with weekly. But the truth is we've gotten so far ahead on episodes and had so many great guests already. We're able to do that. So we're not going to be back two weeks from now. We're going to be back next week. And next week's guest is Casey Graham. Casey Graham is not only a great friend. He is the founder and the CEO of The Rocket Company. And they're the people who bring you things like preaching rocket, business rocket, worship rocket, and so on. And Casey is a fascinating leader. He's an entrepreneur who loves churches, loves business leaders. And he's going to talk to us about what church leaders can learn from business leaders and what business leaders can learn from church leaders and also what he's learning about the emerging and changing field of online marketing and how that applies both to businesses and churches. So Casey's a fascinating interview. He's actually made a big difference already. The Rocket Company last year was named to the Inc. 5000 list and also named by Inc. as one of the fastest growing organizations. They were Infusionsoft's marketer of the year. So Casey's got a lot of insight and you don't have to wait two weeks. It's coming up next week. And the best way to make sure that you don't miss an episode is simply to subscribe on iTunes. And you can do that right now. And if you would, leave us a rating and review. So we will see you next Tuesday. And thanks so much for listening. You're really amazing in making this so much fun. And I really hope today's episode has helped. Those of us who feel overwhelmed or even in a place where we don't know how we're going to carry on. So we're going to continue that conversation on the blog at carrynewhoff.com. We'll see you next week. And I really do hope this helps you lead like never before. - You've been listening to the Carry Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. (upbeat music) (gentle music)