Gateway Church Australia
Impress Series Panel
Let me introduce our people, Trie, who has three girls who tell people their age. 13, 11 and 9. Right, so you're right in the middle of it. Three 10 girls. Yeah. Sean. 13 and 19. 13 and 19 two girls. Sean's one of our elders. Great guy. White man here over here. Trie's husband, Josh down here. And. I'll try. You're trash. She should be up here, not me. So we've got a daughter who's 11 and a son who's seven. And thank you. And I just want to acknowledge we don't have a single parent on our panel today. We could have had certainly their incredible single parents in this, in this church. But I just want to acknowledge how incredible I think people who are doing this on their own. 100% and always, yes, respect and honor. So this series has been about not just good parenting, but how we impress. Faith, which we think is incredibly valuable. I hope you would agree on the next generation. So my first question is this, and it's one that's engine pose on the first week of this series. What is the line? If there is one between brainwashing our kids with Christian faith and. Impressing faith on them. The line between those two. Trie, how about you start? Nothing like a light start to the morning. Hey. For me, it came down to two words. One is curiosity, allowing them to be curious and ask questions and go back and forth on the faith and explore, you know, like acknowledging that there are other religions out there, not everyone. You know, we can tend to live in a bit of a church bubble, but you know, not everyone has a faith and what does that look like for them and, you know, giving, having that back and forth with them. But also, the other word for me is relationship. For me, indoctrination or brainwashing, it's about control and behavior like you do this because you're going to be a good Christian or whatever that whatever that is. But I think impressing faith is about introducing them to Jesus and allowing them to find their own relationship with him and then everything follows from that. Anyway, Sean, do you want to add to that? Yeah, I think I think it is, depending on the age that your children are, I suppose, impressing faith or discipleship. When they are younger, you obviously play a more conscious role. You're always playing a conscious role, but it's more intentional. Whereas, as they get older, I think it is, it's around, I think the key thing for me around discipleship versus indoctrinating is patience and endurance, I suppose, right? It's about bringing them along on the journey, making sure that they understand. And, again, to Tree's point, that there is an openness for questions and curiosity rather than forcing something. Right. Yeah. Travis, was there anything you want to add? Yeah, I think for me, the difference between the two is how many people are contributing to the conversation. So, I used the example earlier around, so my dad grew up in a storage Catholic family back in the 50s, 60s, 70s. And for him, for his dad, he came out from Ireland to storage. It was like, "Well, if you don't come to church with us on the weekends, you can't borrow the car to play cricket the next day or whatever it is." It was very much aligned with, "You have to do this to get that." So, it actually had the opposite effect. It pushed my dad away from the faith entirely. So, if it's a one-way conversation the whole time, it's just telling. It's true. It's no choice, no nothing. It's just telling. Whereas, if it's a two-way conversation, you're actually talking through stuff. You letting them have the opportunity to ask questions, ask why to challenge your beliefs, and really help them to ground their own thing, because we're as a parent, and we consistently talk about it at the stage, but definitely in youth and in God's opinion, we want our kids to have their own faith. So, if we're just telling, telling, telling, they're going to grow up as a media version of me to an extent in either a bell or just essentially be me or not themselves. Whereas, if you've got a two-way conversation, they can challenge that and grow themselves. I think that, to me, is how many people are contributing to that conversation. So, why? So, here's a difficult one. I think everyone's had parents have gone through this. What do you do when your kids decide they don't want to come with you to church? And at what age is that often? At what age is that often an issue? It's not a very deep or spiritual answer, but we get slushies after church just for positive association. In this room, don't give away your secrets. Do you know what, though? We actually got that from Josh's family, because they had a thing where they would always go and get ice cream after church, and it became like a family tradition. And it just had that bribery, we call that positive association. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. But the other thing that I like to bring up to my kids, and giving them choices in it and not being like, "Well, you have to go to church, like you were saying with your grandfather." But if they're not feeling like going to a God's zone for one particular morning, or they're just not in that space, "Okay, well, would you want to come into big church with us?" And if you come into big church, you can take notes, so you'll take notes on the phone. What you're saying there is a really important aspect of parenting. The thing I was, my grandchildren were leaving yesterday, and my grandson didn't want to go. He was going, he was starting to arc up. So his dad said to him, "Jad, we're going. Would you like me to carry you, or would you like to walk?" Yeah. So he was giving him a choice, but he was going to do what he was told either way. Yeah. So I think what you're saying there is still allowing the kids to have some sense of choice in it. Yeah, that's it. It's very smart parenting. Yeah. And the other thing that we always bring up is, you know, we have this beautiful group of friends within church that are so close, that are our family, and our kids love. They're like second parents to our kids, Beth and Ricky and Jacob and Beth and so many others. And, you know, we say to our kids, "Well, who do you love? Who, like, builds into your world? Who do you love, you know, and who loves you?" And they say, "Oh, those people." And we go, "Well, that's a result of us investing in this community." You know, church isn't just something we go to because we have to, on a Sunday, it is our family. It is our family. It is our family of God that we invest in. And that's why we have the beautiful people in our world that we have. So, yeah. Yeah. Just before I hear from you two, Craig's wife Linda was telling me the other day. If you hadn't noticed, we've got this prayer wall over here that we've been inviting people to add names to our last couple of weeks of children that we want to be praying for. And Linda was telling me that her daughter was looking at that. Of course, she wanted to go and see if her name was on there. Now, she expected that her mum and dad would have put her name there. So, she saw that, but then she counted and there were three or four other places where her name was up there. So, as a kid of, she's 12. Yeah. Understanding that there are other people in this community that want to pray for her. That had a powerful effect on her young soul, which I thought was beautiful. Sean, what about you? I think, you know, it's about maintaining that fine balance. So, firstly, churches what we do as a family on Sunday, right? So, that's the foundation that I believe, you know, that you've got to impress. But when that fails and when, you know, life just betters them around, I think the key thing is trying to understand the reasons why. So, you know, a lot of the time it's not about that I don't want to come to church. It's actually about, you know, that there's a social problem or there's a friend problem or, you know, something along those lines. So, I think, yeah, just to take a step back and just ask those questions. And I think also, you know, we often talk about peer pressure as being a negative thing. But sometimes peer pressure can be very positive as well, especially in a church and a Christian environment. So, it's understanding, you know, that peer pressure if it's there. And if it's not, you know, where's it lacking and what are the concerns? Yeah, great. Yeah. Travis, your kids are neuro, you have two neuro divergent children. So, you know, there are particular issues that your family have to deal with. So, tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. So, for us, churches are not negotiable. It is what it is. We're going here because we love Jesus and we love this community. And that's what we're going to do. But those who have neuro divergent, I always say neuro divergent. So, I got it right today. Neuro divergent kids in their lives will know that it does not always as simple as we're doing this. Now, I saw to another parent in the previous service who came to me afterwards and was, you know, so I didn't know this but I was great to connect with people. Like, for his kids, it's like, well, this is the plan. This is what we're doing and they need to know that. And that happens if it changes their stuff. Whereas our kids, they like a plan. But if something, to your point, might be social issues, all of a sudden, something from three weeks ago, someone has said something to someone who might have offended or on some sort of scary over here, that's come out right before you work out the door. So, in those moments, we have a choice to make. I can be task mode, trap and break them and then take them. And then we can deal with the mess later or we can, you know, work through that moment, sorry, that, that, that issue in the moment. Now, that might mean we're five minutes late for church. Who cares? Like, if you've taken that few minutes to sort it out and work through as a family rather than breaking them, that's one side of it. But the other side is for us is that church online has become a massive tool. So, through COVID, we all enjoy church online because we could connect. We still couldn't get that face to face connection. But for us, this is a priority. So, we come here every single week. There are some weeks where you know what, it's not worth fighting this battle to get you out that door into the car, get you to church, force you in a gozo when you're not feeling it. Because they're anxiety, because they're kids with their autism. They've also got both of them and the elements of anxiety. And it does associate more with females. So, you know, throw that in. But like, so it's like, as they're trying to walk out the door, if they're really gripped and they're stuck, I can either break them and deal with it. Well, but you know what? Today is not the day. But because we're not going, we are watching church online. So, at 10 o'clock, I don't care what screen you're on or what you're doing. We're turning that off. That is what we're doing for the next hour. So, for us, it's become a really powerful tool to still connect them in and see the message and whatnot and connect them in that way in those moments. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, I'm going to ask you a question. Then I'm going to ask you guys a question and then I'm going to come back to you. Okay, I want you to think about what is... So, maybe the biggest mistake you think you've made in this regard, if you had to time over again, how you change it. Now, I'm going to ask you guys and I'll get someone brave to shout out in a minute. I'll give you time to think about it. Are you very careful? (Laughter) For those of you who feel that you're... or any of you, is it feel that maybe your parents have done a good job in pressing faith on you? How have they done that? What have they done well? Which has caused you to want to investigate faith for yourself. Okay, I'm giving you time to think about it because some of you might need some processing time. But one of you is going to answer or there's no slushy aftercare. (Laughter) All right? Okay, biggest mistake. Travis, how about we start with you? Because someone knows something about you I think you might have made a mistake. Look, I'm almost Jesus. So, who's been at the DISC profile? Everyone, DISC profile, most adults would have run a great course here and translate them to beneath the poo. So, I'm definitely not a piglet. So, the DISC profile is the D, ISC. I can't tell you exactly what they are, but it's about task, focus, and people are the DC and I, and then the SC is about compassion and mercy. When I do that DISC profile, every time I've done it at par for a dozen or more times, every single time I come up really strong on the three DC and I, it's a task focused, and task focused people, and I forgot how it went. But I always come very, very low on compassion and mercy. That's where Kirsty comes in because we need a balance, right? But for me, the reason I set that up is one of my biggest mistakes is defaulting to task mode travel when we need to get stuff done. So, whether it be getting on the way to church or getting to school or doing, like, whatever it may be, I default to those. It's like, we all default to our own things, but for a lot of years, I just default to tell, well, you know what? You have an amount down. That's fine. Or you might be in this really stuck moment. Let's break you and we'll deal with it later, and that's what I was experienced before, is that? But I've had to learn that's not healthy because nine times out of ten when I break you and go, Kirsty has to deal with the fallout later because often it is, like, I break them, get in the car. Kirsty takes them to school as another meltdown while I'm off at work. So, like, that's one thing. And it's not healthy either. You don't want to be known when their parents, like, Dad always broke me and never actually cared. So, that was one big mistake. But the thing that I've learned over the years is that, well, I know I've got an insecurity with people. So, I always have this insecurity of what other people think of me and how I parent. And I've got to constipate over Jesus, but one of the things that I've had to really unlearn, and again, Kirsty should be up here, not me, but Kirsty's helped me learn, apart from the mercy and compassion, is that the way your kids behave isn't always a reflection of you as a parent. And I've had to grasp that. So, a lot of times I would act as a parent out of fear and shame of what potentially other people would think of me as a parent, or my parents would keep me and going, "Well, we didn't do that with you. You're doing it wrong." And I've had a lot of battles with that. So, there are two things. I have two biggest mistakes. Is parenting out of my default and parenting out of fear and shame? Trev, I love what you said about, you know, you're learning from Kirsty to battle against the natural way that you would parent. And it's interesting how often, if there is a man and a woman, you know, if you are lucky enough to have two parents, we can often think, "Okay, I can be this. I can be the hard one because the soft one will make up for it." You know, and we can sometimes sit in those roles. But I was talking to someone after the first service who's now a single dad, his marriage broke up. He was always the hard guy. He was the bad cop. Wife was the good cop. But he said, "When his wife was no longer on the scene, it took him years to reestablish his parenting so that he wasn't being the bad cop to his kids all the time. He had to learn to be both." And he said, "It's really important, even if you do have two people in a parenting job, that you don't just say, "Well, I'll do this and they'll do that." You know, I thought that was very interesting inside. Sean, what about you? Yeah, well, it's just to add on to what you were saying there. I think, you know, that's the key thing while we sit up, yeah. It's parenting is hard. It's, you know, and it's a major responsibility, not only on parents, but also, you know, adults that are impressing faith and on the younger generation. So, and I think that the key thing is, for me, when I reflect on what is my biggest mistake, I was looking for a single event. Couldn't find one because it happens often, right? So, for me, it is definitely my patience or lack of it. But at the same time, that's something easy for me to recognise because it's something that I grapple with God with every single day, right? And I think this is, if I have one bit of advice for myself and for others, is that we are all flawed, right? We don't always have the answers. And I think it's key, especially when your kids get older, to, I mean, my kids know that I'm impatient. They know, you know, but it's to bring them along on that journey and let them know and realise that I'm struggling with this. And I need God's grace every single day in my life to direct me on this. So, you often apologise to your kids? I do. I do, yes. I've got a smile over there, so that says hopefully an acknowledgement. But yes, absolutely. And this is the thing right on self-reflection. And at the time, you know, your patience might wreath in, but on self-reflection and also again, just, you know, when you're reflecting and you're spending time with God, you know that you'll push that point. And that's where you've got to share that journey. And I think that's my point. You've got to share the journey with the kids because, guess what, they're going to be faced with the same thing. It's going to be absolutely true. I know you're perfect. You know, I was very similar to Sean and I was like, no, for me, it's how many mistakes and failures are like a daily thing. And it's that constant looking back and going, oh, I did not do that well. And not in a, you know, beating myself up way, but like, I'm going to try and do better with that. The other thing I was thinking about is like, gosh, our kids are mirrors. Sometimes I'll have these moments where I go, oh, where'd that attitude come from? I'm like, oh, no, that's that's come from me. That's that is directly something I would say or an attitude that I had as a teenager and probably still comes out as an adult. And yeah, I guess for me is like also letting my own junk or my own stuff or how I'm feeling in that moment. I don't know, I find as the mum and this isn't always the case, but I think because I'm the one that Josh works often early in the morning. So I'm the one who sort of is around with me getting ready for school and stuff. I think my mood can set the tone of the house. And so if I get up and I'm in a mood and I am, things aren't going the way I want or people like the kids are, I don't know, making a mess or doing whatever when I'm trying to get them out the door. But I find my mood can set, I noticed them go one by one, the mood spreads. So for me, it's that, you know, not letting my own feelings and crap rule my me and set that tone in the morning. Isn't it a fun balance, you know, Sean, you're talking about being vulnerable and real with your kids and you're, yeah, you can be vulnerable and real, but you're also the parent. Yeah, it is. It's such a balance. I don't think that's the thing with so much of parenting is constant, a constant balance. Don't go too far this way. Don't go too far this way. Finding somewhere in that middle in the gray and the balance. All right, let's hear from this lot over here. Would anyone like to give us an answer to that question? What do you think your parents might have done well to encourage you to find faith for yourself? Thank you, Charlotte. Can you stand up so we can hear you? Oh, that would be great. We'll give you a mic. For me, I was just reflecting and thinking about how there's never once been a time where we were denied an opportunity. So if there were ever any church camps that we were aware of or youth group or if we wanted to join youth band, the answer was always yes. And specifically, my mom would always provide a way to get us there. And like I'm thinking about when James had last year a camp he wanted to go on and then immediately after went to camp no fear. It's just, we're always provided the opportunity and then when we come home, we talk about it and we're able to have regular conversations that just provide us so much opportunity to. Work through it ourselves and really develop that ourselves and I feel like if we were denied those opportunities of us. Curiously searching for answers on our own. We wouldn't be where we are today. Yeah, well done. Thank you, Charlotte. I was thinking about mistakes. And I think when my parents admitted their mistakes and apologized, that taught me more than anything else. It taught me that I don't need to be afraid of my own failures. And I turned 16. I got my learners. My dad took me for my first drive on a 38 degree day and I popped the tire and you're so angry at me and had to change it in the heat. And he I've never heard him so angry. We got home and didn't talk to me for about two days. And then I got home from school. And there was a letter for me on the kitchen bench and I looked at it and it had eight tickets to get driving lessons. And it had it had a big letter apologizing and it said, Dear Bethany, I'm so sorry for the way I treated you and talk spoke to you. I shouldn't talk to you like that, but you need to do this eight lessons before I take you out again. So it just, it taught me that mistakes are okay and I don't need to be perfect. And his mistakes taught me more than the things he did right. Yeah, so good. You know, and I was thinking about my my own parents. And really the reason that I love Jesus today is because I just watched them. I just watched them do life. And, and church and community was a non negotiable for us as we grew up and I am so, so grateful for that. As I showed many of you here as well. Proverbs 1324 says, in some versions, spare the rod spoil the child. But the message version says a refusal to correct is a refusal to love love your children by disciplining them. What do you think is godly discipline. My kids will say that discipline, this is this is when dad will kick in. No, I think, you know, as as adults or society, let alone kids, we need boundaries, right? And for me that I both Mandy and I want the best for our kids. And through what we've learned and and and what we resonate that we learn in the Bible. It says that, you know, we have while we have free will, there are these lessons and boundaries that are imparted on us that God has left us. Right. So there's wisdom in that. So for me, it is definitely because I want the best for my kids and because I want them to thrive when our jobs are done one day. It is really our responsibility to try and make sure that they understand what those parameters are, where they can be curious, where they can be just left to their own devices, but the skill sets, the discipline for me brings the skill sets for them in later in later life. So it's it's so important. Beautiful. Anyone want to add something? I think it comes back to that balancing as well. You know, you know, it's you've there's no discipline. You can't discipline without love, but you also can't love without discipline like you need. They need to work together that you need both because if it's all, all lovey dovey and no discipline, then they don't learn resilience or boundaries or, you know, those skills for life and can grow up to be jerks, to be honest. And, you know, if it's all discipline and no love, then there's that, you know, the element of self esteem and rebellion and it's just not good for their souls. And I think I think that's the key is they need to feel unconditionally loved, but also know what what are our family, you know, boundaries, what are our guidelines, what are our like, these are non negotiable and how do we conduct ourselves and, you know, for us with a lot of things. We're quite strict as parents, you know, we try and we, but we always try and give them a while, you know, like with phones and devices and screen time and stuff we're quite, you know, on the conservative side of that. But then in life and in, you know, we've built a giant water side in our garden and they can climb trees and, you know, they can take risks and have a lot of freedom in some areas of their life. But in things where we think, no, this is important and this is out. This is why we choose this as a family. It's like, you know, they know our kids know what our boundaries are and what what the expectations are and why. Yes, that's what I think is so important. Why is the key? Give them the why. Yeah, they may not accept it, but you can turn them. And even in the moments where you are disciplining them and you're in trouble or whatever we want to put it, it's going. I often say to them, if I didn't love you so much, I wouldn't care how you're behaving. You know, I'm only correcting you and disciplining you because I care so much and I want you to be the best you can be. The way that you're behaving now is not the best you can be. So it's that, yeah, it is. It's giving them the why and, and the love in, in the, not that, you know. I heard of Jordan Peterson. He's a Canadian. What is he? He's a psychologist, I think. Yeah. And he said this. He said, don't allow your children to do things which will cause other people not to like them. Yeah. And I thought that is. It's incredible. I don't want to be so tied up that, you know, you were saying before that it's all about how people perceive you. I don't want my kids to reflect batting on me with their behavior, but if people don't like them, then it's going to reflect on the way they interact with them. And before you know it, they're not going to enjoy being part of a community because all of those people don't like me. It's, I've never thought of it before. Don't let your children do things that will cause other people to not like them. And I think we're talking about being jerks. That's a mantra and ask. Don't be a jerk. Don't be a jerk. So much is covered by just don't be a jerk. I should be in the Proverbs. Don't be a jerk. The issue of discipline with your kids. Yeah. I think task mode travel comes out pretty quickly. And that's where I've had to really learn to not operate in that space. I think there's a couple of things I've needed to learn in that space. Number one is that every child is different. And that sounds pretty obvious. But it could be really easy to go. Well, work for that child. Let's do it for that child. Now, any parent will know it with multiple kids. No, that doesn't work. And anyone who has multiple neurodiverge in kids will know that's on an X level. It doesn't work. So that's number one is for me is had to learn that what works for Zach won't work for Chloe. But what worked for Chloe today won't work tomorrow. So, like it depends on where she is the same with Zach and I can be more playful with Zach because that is a young fellow growing up. But I have to be more sensitive to curse. That's a Chloe because she's more wide like cursed. So, like, that's one thing I've had to learn. I think the other thing with Godly discipline in my eyes is that you need to let them live with the consequences. So, what I mean by that is, okay, they might run across the road and we had an example recently. So, a young fellow, he tends to run in car parks. So, you'll notice that we park literally right here every single time with a disabled permit because he'll run. Like, we were three to three parts car parks away from Karate in summer hall and it was raining and he gets sensory overload. He's ran right behind a full drive with a reversing screen, but she didn't see him because he was ducking like this and cursed had to run behind it to stop the car. So, she's putting her life in danger at that moment. So, where was I going with that? I said, living with the constant, he knows, she's just got to go bang. So, this is not acceptable mate. The consequence living with that is obviously, you know, hospitalization or something, but that's in a moment of, you've got just a hard rod moment of that, you can't do that. But there's other things that you go, you know what, I'm going to leave you the choice to make mistakes here, but you have to live with these consequences. I'm not going to save you. So, we've had examples of a client will take trading cards to school and rather than I did as a kid, I took a heap of marbles to school one day without telling my parents and lost them all. They cried to them. They're like, "We told you to take six. Why'd you take 26?" So, with Chloe, she's such a generous human being that she's trying to help these people when she thought she was trading, but she actually came home with one card after like all these cards. And we had to let her sit in there and the 3rd consequence is we're not buying them for you anymore because we want you. But it's just like, we're not saving you from this consequence. Like, we'll talk you through it, we'll help you through it, we'll help you process it. But if we come in and save the day, they haven't learned to think. And so, there's an act of discipline by not doing anything at all. I want spills into exactly what I wanted to finish with. Jonathan Haidt, who is an incredible social psychologist, has just written a book called The Anxious Generation. And he has basically said that our kids have fallen out of practice with how to do relationships well. Now, that's based on the couple of years of COVID that we had and the use of social media. And also, he's saying that overprotective parents and this socially alienating technology have left kids with almost no conflict management skills. So, he speaks in this new book. He talks about three trends worries that he has for this generation of kids. One is fragility. You know, I often talk about the lack of resilience. It's like the immune system. We need adversity to develop resilience. So, facing challenges is good for kids, which is what you were saying, Trab, that you've got to let them sit in the consequences of what's gone on. And when they face a challenge and they get over it by themselves, it boosts their confidence. So, it's a really important thing. The second thing is trusting feelings. Now, I think through the 90s and the early 90s, there was very much a move to, you know, whatever kids are saying, they feel we need to listen to that. And I think that's important. We don't deny kids' feelings, but the problem is that we've gone too far. Feelings are important, but when we prioritize and say it's all about the way you feel, then it can lead to illogical conclusions. For instance, if a child is feeling hurt because of something someone did to them, it doesn't necessarily mean that that person intended to hurt them. So, we have to take them out of just their own feelings and look at the situation as a whole. That's very important for kids. And the third one, he said, is seeing life in black and white. And that's, you know, the algorithms on our social media. They're pulling us to the extreme this side or extreme that side. And the kids are seeing life as this batter between black and white. Instead of being able to sit with some nuance, you know, it's maybe this area is a bit grey. Maybe there isn't a black or a white on this particular issue. And this is a very healthy thing for kids to learn to see nuance in issues. So, the question is, what can the church do? Why is the church important in all this? Now, forgive our lack of grammar here. How can the church help it? It hurts my soul, Marcy. Sorry? That grammar hurts my soul. Sorry. Well, the things that the church is great at is multi-generational relationships. And last week, we had the older folks sitting and doing some speed-friendly with some of our primary school kids. And it was just awesome. Where else can we get such a rich community with people from all sorts of diverse backgrounds, different ages, different races. All of those things are going to happen within the church, and it's incredibly healthy for our young people. And the third thing is volunteer experiences. Now, one of the things that's beautiful in this place is that there's so many opportunities, not just for us, but our children as well, to get involved in helping other people in different ways. Trap, tell us that story about Chloe. Yeah. So, on those mornings, I spoke about how we get kids to church. Sometimes, Chloe will come to church and she's happy to come to church as she gets here. She gets a bit stuck between here or God's own, because, you know, I don't really want to go to God's own, but she's not keen on sitting here unless she's got some drawing. If she's prepared, she'll bring it and sit here, just like you were saying before with your kids will come in here. But if we kind of have the last minute, we get here, "Oh, I'm not sure about God's own today," then the team of God's own are amazing. So, if you ever have this issue with your kids of all ages, speak to the God's own team or send them to the youth team. They'll provide opportunities, but they're just lovely and go to Chloe. Do you want to come upstairs and help with the babies? So, I don't know if the baby upstairs has told us. So, she'll actually come to church and she's like, "I'm not feeling it today." They've recognised, you know, rather than forcing you in here, kicking and screaming and whatnot, which is different when you're a 1-year-old, you know, 1-year-old versus a 11-year-old, rather than that or missing out entirely. How about you come and help and join in this ministry? She's loved that and she's really connected with it. She's been living at such a young age to step outside of herself. How can I help other people? And that's what the beauty is with the volunteer opportunities within the church. One of the last things Jonathan Haidt said is that the church is one of the last places where people of diverse backgrounds gather together regularly and in community. And it's not about rows, it's about circles. Our kids need circles. And I think that's just a beautiful, beautiful thing. Well, I thank you good and wise people for your help and I know that hopefully, you know, we could have got so many people up who have such wisdom when it comes to parenting. But we would like to feel that the church is a village that we are here to help one another through our hard times and our good times. But there's nothing more precious for us to impress on our kids than Jesus. That's what it's all about. Well, how about we thank them? Thank you. (applause)