Smylie Kaufman and Charlie Hulme are joined by Kyle Porter, who has gone independent with his "Normal Sport" newsletter (which you can sign up for at NormalSport.com) after twelve years of covering golf for CBS. Kyle discusses recent headline comments made by Rory McIlroy in his newsletter about the way golf is covered, examines the state of LIV Golf three years into the league's existence, and explores the future of golf content - both on the pro side, and on YouTube. The episode concludes with Kyle, Smylie and Charlie snake drafting their favorite (and least favorite) major championships from the last decade.
The Smylie Show
Kyle Porter on "Normal Sport" and the state of pro golf + a MAJOR DRAFT!
Make us your game day headquarters this football season. Stomp by the new ESPN bet at your nearest Penn Play destination. Watch the best games on our giant screen TVs. Throw back a few of your favorite ice cold pints with friends. Tackle the area's best game day food. Get in the game with deals, drives, rewards, and more. To find a Penn Play destination near you, visit penplay.com. Score big this football season at your Penn Play game day headquarters. Sponsored by ESPN bet. Must be 21 or over gambling problem, call 1-800-GANDELER. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Two, back! Smiley Kaufman for 61, wow! I'm Smiley Kaufman, and this is The Smiley Show. All right, guys. Welcome back to another episode of The Smiley Show. This is going to be a fantastic interview that we have for you guys today with Kyle Porter. Formerly with CBS now has his own newsletter. You need to go and check it out. Normal sport is where you can find it. Charlie, this was a great interview, and Kyle is fantastic at what it does. So we actually got to just ask him all the questions that you and I talk about all the time. As you mentioned, as we've been prepping for this interview, the two mainstays that have unpaid, honorary emeritus research positions on the show are Justin Ray, of course, and Kyle Porter. We read more of their tweets than anybody else. They bring us the best content. So I was looking forward to this one for a while. Also, as you mentioned, if you go to normal sport.com and subscribe to his newsletter, he's had a lot of really cool ones since announcing his departure from CBS, had a two-parter with Rory McElroy, who made some news. So excited to get into that, and maybe some fun stuff at the end as well. It was really fun at the end, for sure. That was something that we should definitely do more of. But I think it's fun to have something that's been covering the game for as long as he has, kind of been through what was just the normal PGA tour, to when it started, to getting more fractured when the Saudis came into action. So having a guy that's kind of been through it all from a media standpoint and has had to form opinions based off of just craziness that ensued, I thought it was fun to kind of pose those questions on him as well. Yeah, and Kyle's got a great perspective. He's got a great big picture view on things. He's obviously in the weeds reporting on it, but also kind of go to the 10,000-foot level. And it will get into it in the interview, but defining normal sport. There's a little bit of tongue-in-cheek nature there. It is golf is anything but a normal sport. And so I love Kyle's sort of comedic approach to like, this whole thing we're doing, it is pretty absurd. And it's pretty cool that we get to do this for work. So yeah, as you mentioned, normal sport.com. It's got three books out, normal sport, one, two, and three worth checking all that out. And what do you think, Smiley? I think we get right to it. Get going here with Kyle Porter. - Well, as you guys just heard, Kyle Porter is now joining the Smiley Show. Kyle, thank you for joining us. And really you and Justin Ray probably get the most shout-outs of any of the people that we talked about in the show, because y'all always bring the heat when it comes to the stats. I'm like, Charlie, dude, you got to go to Kyle's Twitter and see if there's anything that we can use. 'Cause you always are burying up something that is useful and just something to always ponder about. - Yeah, thanks for saying that. I'm trying to walk in J Ray's footsteps. - He definitely walks so a lot of people could run it 'cause that guy's like the OG, right? - He's definitely the OG. I'd love to talk stats. We can talk, I was led to believe that we were gonna talk second half LSU A&M. (laughing) - Hey, it's you, Kyle. - No, no, no, no, no. - That's big from a guy who's 0 and 5 in big 12 conference play. That's a lot of heat coming. - Oh, go on the stage is terrible. They're not even gonna make a bowl. It's atrocious. - Man. - We got this. - We got this. - This will be lucky to go to the male bowl. So I mean, I think Smiley's definitely sitting in the pole position of the three college football teams on this podcast. - I'm just messing around. - The atmosphere did look incredible though. Like I've been to Kyle Field, I think once or twice. And it is, it's a little weird at times that just that whole place. - Yeah. - But like the actual golden atmosphere is phenomenal. It's amazing. - You can hear it through the TV and when that train got rolling the other night, it was a tough scene. It just was not going to stop. So from an LSU Tiger fan, it was not fun to watch, but I gotta give credit to the Aggies on the well played game and a good win. But we're here, I guess it's the loser pod now of college football. - Yeah, Charlie, joining us from the North Carolina California's local and state. And the once glorious LSU, Smiley Kaufman here. So Kyle, and we do it a little intro right here before this. And you know, most of us know you from CBS where you covered it off in more than 12 years, authored three books, normal sport, one, two and three. Now you're independent writing a newsletter for more than 15,000 golf fans at the aptly named normal sport.com. So why don't you just talk about normal sport? Because I think it's such a great way to describe where golf is now, which is a once very easy sport to cover. You know, you had Tiger Woods, you had it being a very niche sport, but now it's a popular sport. Now it's a confusing sport at the professional level. And we are lucky in that we're media. And we get to talk about it and cover this crazy game. - Yeah, we are. It's, you know, it's funny because it's changed. Even since I got into it and at the end of 2012, that was my first month was CBS was like December 20. I guess my first like real month was the very beginning of 2013. And you're right. It was just a lot more straightforward back then, I think. You're like, Oh, I think Rory's gonna win a bunch. And then Jordan's gonna win a bunch. And I mean, at that point, I think it was at some point in 2015, those two guys held all four majors. And then it feels like ever since then everything just got really strange and fractured and weird. But, you know, the origin of normal sport, people ask me this a lot about like, where did you get like, it's obviously a tongue and cheek play on like how golf is so weird and bizarre. And you've got, you know, these, the Changang bringing outlines to figure out if Bryson's balls out of bounds and Memphis. And you've got Zander and burrowing animal holes in Phoenix, just really strange stuff that doesn't happen at, you know, Raiders Chiefs. - Bryson carrying the, what was it, the sign at the Masters this year? That's one that's definitely in the normal sport category. - He looked like he was like burying his own cross at A-Men corner. Nope, no pun intended. But the origin of it for whatever reason, I don't know, I actually, I don't actually know what it was, but I have this picture of Tyrell Hatton in my head of him like, in the fairway, maybe at Bay Hill, maybe at the 2020 US Open. And he's just like, gesticulating and in like, basically doing a yoga pose to figure out, to identify his ball, 'cause he had mud on it or something like that. And you're like, what am I watching? This is so strange to be watching this on TV. And you get a million of those every week. And yeah, I write a newsletter about it now. So it's been, it's been a ton of fun, but yeah, it's definitely, there's no shortage of strange events in the world of golf. - So Kyle, I'll let you kind of help me define the parameters of this question. You can workshop this one with me, but all that you've just kind of teed up there, defining what the whole normal sport concept or bit is. If you're making a metal podium of like all time, normal sport moments in the game of golf, what's your bronze, silver and gold entries? And tell me if all times too much, we can kind of shrink it to a tighter time period, but I'm just curious that you have three of those in mind. - That's a great question. Like, the first thing that comes to mind, honestly, is growler yelling at speed at the 17 open at Karnusti. I guess it was 13 or 14. Or excuse me, speed yelling at growler, just give me a round number, 'cause there was no, you know, he's over by the equivalent. First of all, if you're tuning in to NBC, shout out Smiley, if you're tuning in to NBC and you hadn't watched anything and you just see these 18 wheeler like trucks like off the side of this, like basically this forest, or not forest, but like a park, you're like, what am I watching? I thought I was tuning in to golf and you've got speed running around over there, yelling at growler to give him a round number, 'cause he has no idea what the yardage is. So that's the first one that comes to mind. And I think a lot of them actually, Charlie, are, they're predicated upon this idea that golf is played not in, like every other sport you watch, tennis, basketball, World Series, you know, football, they're all in a set field or stadium or like there's guidelines around it. And in golf, you've got people walking into the woods and you've got, I mean, we see it every single week and it just, I think that's like, I love that golf is in nature because I think it provides a sort of spirituality there that a lot of sports don't provide 'cause you can go play with your dad or your brother or whatever, your sister in nature and you're kind of taking a hike and just like carrying a bunch of metal sticks with you, but it also makes for some really bizarre moments throughout, you know, all these events and major championships. The top three question is a good one though. I need to actually go back and make that, maybe like a top 10 I think would be, and then you could have it like, okay, well, did this surpass, you know, like whenever something happens at Riviera next year, did this crack the top 10, like a Hall of Fame normal sport moment? - I was almost thinking of like the Richter scale, like an earthquake, like it's gotta get, has to have like a normal sport like rating scale of where does this land amongst all time normal sport events. But that's good, that's it. - Bryson is actually the author of a lot of them. I mean, just the fact like he got glossed over, he prints his own golf clubs. (laughing) You know, like what? - It's like roll-bolts combo this year. - Yeah, you're like top 10 stuff. - You know, Arnold Palmer's, you know, probably, I don't know if he actually did this, but repping or selling Xerox machines, like, you know, printers and Bryson's printed his own golf clubs. Like, that's absurd. - So good. - What's your most normal sport moment from a media perspective? I thought you asked a brilliant question to Rory in the newsletter recently that you just had. And maybe Charlie, you may remember the quote a little bit better as far as like what was asked, but it was something along the lines of asking Rory about media in general and a question that he maybe has not been asked before. - Yeah, I think I posed it well. I mean, I just thought Kyle, it was interesting to flip it on him in a way where, and even just unpacking his answer. Like, I'm curious what your reaction was to him saying, or maybe just what you took from his answer. And maybe just explain that a little bit because for me, it was like, what are you trying to say there? Do you not want us critiquing? He was clear about, it's okay to critique bad performances, but negativity about the game overall was kind of what I took away from what he had to say to you. - And Charlie, the question was about media, correct? 'Cause it was simply just, you know, what is something, we do all the question asking, what's something you want to ask the media? - Yeah, and he kind of came at it from a, you know, why does everything always have to be negative perspective? And my initial pushback on that was what you just said of like, well, wait a second, like we do have to sort of talk about, you know, you miss a putt to lose the, I literally said you miss a putt to lose the US Open. We have to, and he was like, no, I'm not talking about that. He said, I'm talking about just from a broader perspective and the way that people sort of come at their job. And he got rolled up into this thing that I don't know that it's what he meant. It kind of got rolled into this thing of like, oh, you know, Rory doesn't want anybody to talk about, you know, how bad the professional landscape is in golf right now. And maybe that is what he was talking about. I haven't talked to him since then, I haven't, we haven't discussed it, but I took it more as like he was coming at it from the perspective of we've all met people in media or that are covering the sport that honestly you're like, do you even like golf? Like, do you even enjoy this? And I think in some cases the answer's no. You're like, why are you doing it then? Like if there's no joy in this, maybe you just view it as like, well, I have to pay the bills or whatever. And I just, I think he and I align and probably you guys too have like, this is the coolest job in the world. I mean, Smiley probably had the coolest job in the world of playing professional golf, but like, it's a pretty, it's up there, you know, top five. And I just, I always have, you know, I kind of came into golf from a very, I had a really weird path and not traditional journalism or anything like that. And I'm looking around at these people who are complaining at the US Open or, you know, the media hotel was too, whatever. And you're like, what are you guys taught? Like, my friends are so jealous of, and yes, it's a job at times and you got to do the work or whatever, but I just, I think like to me in the moment when we were talking, that felt like more of what he was referencing. And I think his worldview and my worldview is very aligned in that because he's talked a lot about, I'm the luckiest dude in the world to get to do what I do and to have the life that I have. And I feel very much the same about my own life and about my own job. So I don't know, that was how, that was sort of how I took it. - Yes, yeah, go ahead. - Go ahead. - I just, I guess for me, Kyle, I was trying to maybe, I had a similar reaction to that. I'm just thinking about maybe media members and the way that the coverage of the game sort of happens and trying to leave some kind of grace or room for people who love this game so much and maybe love a version of the professional game they've known for a long period of time so much that the fracturing that's happening, all that sort of stuff that their critique or negativity's coming from a place of, oh man, I really, really care about this thing and I don't wanna see it, change it to something that I don't love as much as maybe I used to. So I'm trying to kind of separate that from your point of like complaints about shuttle buses or whatever media hotels and stuff like that, just a general, like if you don't enjoy any of this, you're not obligated to cover it in that way. And I also think that's, and this is maybe a tangible we'll get into maybe later on in this conversation but there are different ways to participate in the golf media landscape that don't have to involve covering the professional game of golf if that's something that you can't feel anything but negative towards. So that's where it kind of hit me. I thought that was a fantastic conversation. - Yeah, and I think if he was referencing like the critique of where professional, especially men's professional golf is right now, then yeah, I think that does deserve pushback but I also feel like if I, I don't know, in the moment if I would have thought that's what he was referencing then I would have pushed back on it. So I don't know, maybe I should have more in that like within that but that's not, yeah, it's not totally how I took it in the moment. - Well, the professional game is definitely split with PGA Tour and Live. We know this, even media, right? Like you have certain journalists that cover Live Golf and to shouting match a lot of the times with the typical Live accounts that cover the Live Tour and then you have the PGA Tour accounts that cover the PGA Tour and in the professional game it's just, we're in a real weird spot right now. So where I wanna ask you, which is probably something you haven't thought a whole lot about, which is for somebody that's been covering the sport for quite some time, you've probably been aware of a lot of the storylines leading up to before the Live Golf Tour was started. So if it was you and you were Jay Monahan or you were somebody that was high up in the PGA Tour and you could have done one thing differently to change the outcome of professional golf, whatever year it would have been, whether it was the premier golf league idea that was proposed, is there something that you would have done as commissioner Kyle Porter of the PGA Tour that you would have potentially tried to do or do you think this we were always, or do you think Live Golf and the Saudis were always gonna happen? - It's a good, it's a really good question. I have thought about it some and I think some of it's predicated on how much of Phil's Twitter account you believe because there's a lot there that you're like, yeah, I don't know if it went exactly like that, there's in all seriousness, there's a New Yorker article from, I believe it was fall of 2022, so basically two years ago right now and there's a little like nugget in there and it's kind of a report on, they're looking from a geopolitical global perspective on all this 'cause it's the New Yorker and it's very heady and whatever, but there's a little nugget in there that basically said, I think it was Yasser and I can't remember the other guy's name, the guy that left Live, he was kind of Yasser's like right-hand man, you know what I'm talking about? - I do know also for getting his name, but yeah, pretty people, I would butcher it, but there's a nugget in there about how they kind of came to the PGA tour and to J Monahan and wanted to invest, I think it was a billion dollars into the sport over the next hour for many years and they were rebuffed, they wouldn't take their call, sort of like the PGL of like, yeah, we're good, I think we're okay. And I think to me, that is sort of the, it's not the obvious turning point 'cause you could point to a million other things, but to me, it's the sort of hidden turning point of either, I just feel like there was a lack of foresight and I'd like to think that I'd have better foresight, I don't know that I would, but there's a lack of foresight of like, okay, we either have to, either, this is inevitable and these guys, 'cause this is what these guys do, or we're gonna see it out to the end and they just got hung up between release patterns, so to speak, and didn't do either, right? And I look back on that moment of like, you gotta at least like, listen to the vision, listen to the call and I'd like to think that that is the one thing that I would have done differently, maybe it doesn't turn out the same, or excuse me, maybe it doesn't turn out any differently, but I just, I think to not listen to people that are trying to put a billion dollars into your product, into your organization is such a misstep. - Make us your game day headquarters this football season. Stop by the new ESPN bad at your nearest pen play destination. Watch the best games on our giant screen TVs, throw back a few ice cold pints, and tackle the area's best game day food. To find a pen play destination near you, visit penplay.com. Score big this football season at your pen play game day headquarters, sponsored by ESPN bad. Hope is here, call 800-327-5050 or gamblinghelplinema.org. Must be 21 plus. Play it smart from the start live, jannockgamesensema.com. - Well, it's interesting because I think so much of the early discussions that we had, or that we heard in sort of the golf media space were related to very rightful moral concerns, right? And that was like the major headline, and there's no possible way you could get into business with this crew. And then over time, the inevitability of that sum of money just had people say, and I think Rory might have been the strongest with comments along the lines of, hey, like if they're going to bring you this level of investment, you find a way to work it in your ecosystem in a way that suits you and the things you're trying to achieve with the game rather than letting them come and disrupt and do what they want to do with it, which maybe doesn't suit our means, you know, the way we'd like to see the game grow or be kind of built up at the professional level or grassroots levels. So, I mean, I wonder if there's part of it, you know, where looking back on it now, it just, I guess it's hard. I wonder how you parse through the moral concerns relative to the inevitability of that sum of money. And if you feel any differently now than you did when this all kind of came on the scene originally. - I think I feel differently about criticizing guys in specific ways for going. I do think there's still some unseriousness to it that you're like, I don't know, man, like I don't know how serious you are about golf anymore. One of the things that changed it for me was Charles Howe going. He's a buddy, not a buddy, but like we're professionally close and he's a serious person. And so you're like, huh, that's different than some of these other guys going. Like I view that differently than, you know, some of the other people that took the money. I think the moral stance is difficult. And I think that's where I have some regret of like, I was pretty critical from a moral perspective. Some of it's fair probably, but some of it, I think started to go too far for myself even. And the hard part about the, if you're coming at it from a moral perspective is if you're not hard-line with everybody in your organization or everybody that's like sort of on the other side, then you're gonna be made to look foolish, right? Because that's what, like that's what happened to Rory essentially was he, and it wasn't totally moral for him. There was some other stuff I think involved probably, but there was a morality to it. And then not everybody was on the same page clearly. And then all of a sudden you look like a fool whenever something transpires. So I think that's the part that's really interesting to look back on is everybody took this moral stance, moral stance, moral stance, but are we thought everybody did? And clearly not everybody did. And then all of a sudden the whole thing looks silly whenever the deal gets done. And there's, and there's no reason for us to talk about why John Rahm went or why other guys are considering going, but in where we are in LiveGolf, let's just break down the product in LiveGolf. Because we've, for many times on this podcast, we constantly are talking about the PGA tour and how they should continue to evolve their product to make it more engaging for the fan and make it more watchable and make it make sense. But for LiveGolf, it's nice to have somebody else on here to give us a little bit more insight or about maybe what they like about LiveGolf. Is there anything that you like about LiveGolf? Do you think the whole product, like many people think, is something that's unsustainable and hard to watch? - Yeah, I don't know if it's sustainable from a business perspective, but I do think that the team aspect of LiveGolf is very intriguing to me. And I'll give you a story. The reason why I think that is, 'cause I remember watching one of the first tournaments, I think it was maybe Portland or one of the early ones. And I was watching with my sons who were eight and six at the time. And my eight-year-old was like, Dad, I think it's cool that they have teams. I'd love to see JT and Rory and Spieth on the same team. And you're like, oh, okay, that's interesting. I don't know that I would have articulated it that simply. But for him, it was like, I'm used to watching baseball or football or basketball and rooting for the Dodgers or the Rangers or the Mavericks or whoever. And so it does make sense from his perspective about having teams. I've actually always liked the team aspect of Live. I don't know that they adjudicated in a way that the end of season deal, I still am kind of confused on. - Are you still concerned about the Taylor Gooch, Matthew Wolftrades that we're trying to get down to? - For sure. - I have a lot of questions. The salary cap was really bent to make that happen. But I do think the team aspect, and this is where you go back to PGL of like, oh, this, from a business standpoint, I think have legs of like, oh, so Callaway, instead of spending money on commercials, can have a team that wins a league that gives them X number more marketing dollars than, you know, or Taylor, who ever? Sorry, title is, I guess I should have said. And I think that's where from a business perspective, you're like, oh, that actually makes sense. And you get a younger audience. Like, I think there's something there. I don't know how to figure that out, you know, in a league where you still want to play TPC sawgrass and Riv and Mirafield Village and all these places. But I do think there's something there that Live got right. I think a lot of the rest of it, they got wrong, but that would be the thing that I would point to that I've enjoyed. - Another piece of it that Smiley and I have talked about on the show extensively is just the willingness. And obviously I think they had really no other choice to kind of zag when the PGA tour is playing a domestic schedule, but to really lean into the global aspect of that tour. Even if it means, you know, and I think, and partially maybe the other part of it is, they're freed up by not having a major American television contract where if they're not delivering ratings in, you know, primetime slots, they're going to get, you know, they're not going to fulfill the nature of that deal. But I thought it was interesting this last week just hearing JT and Xander talk about how much they enjoyed playing in front of the Japanese crowds for the Zozo and how much, how they'd like to do more of that against comments from Cam Smith talking about, you know, going to Live, still the best decision he's ever made in his life because he's able to spend more time in Australia and just thinking about catering to some of the international players that we love seeing on the PGA tour, but who definitely would love to play a more international schedule. And, you know, maybe this is kind of getting a little bit off the Live topic here, but, you know, smiling, I'd discuss at length. Like, how nice would it be if the fall swing for the elite players became a trip over to play some of these DP World tour events that are national opens, setting and beautiful scenic backdrops? I wonder what your thoughts are there in terms of, you know, how do we make the game more global so we're not losing those guys to a tour like Live? - Yeah, I think, well, I think Live, Australia, it's like the archetype for that, right? Like, it's been, I think, it would be hard to say it hasn't been successful. It's been, I mean, at least from afar, it's been very cool. I think that, I think what's hard, Charlie, is the thing you mentioned about the television contract with, you know, US companies, and it's like, okay, if you start to, I'm very pro global tour, and I know a lot of players are not, some players are whatever. I think it's really hard to start to replace those massive US centric television contracts. If you start to unbundle that PGA tour being mostly in the US, and I think it would be amazing if you started, like, in the Far East and just went west the whole year and ended in Scotland, Ireland, Spain, you know, in some parts of Europe, but from a monetary, from a business standpoint, does that make any sense? I don't know. Maybe, I don't know what, let's take F1. I don't know what their contracts are globally with different TV partners in Japan or Italy, or some of these places that they go. Maybe you could kind of cobble together whatever the total amount of your US contracts are globally, but I think it'd be hard because I think those US contracts are so solidified, they're so natural, they're so easy, or not easy, but they've come together over time, and I think it'd be difficult to kind of put something together that makes sense from a business standpoint outside of that. Well, I'll go the opposite now, since we just talked about Live. So PGA tour, and for instance, just the playoffs. A very, you know, hot topic when it comes to trying to figure out exactly how to fix it, because I don't think they haven't answered yet, because they know they have to get, you know, finished before football, and Charlie just noted that the DP World Tour, if you go play these national opens, and if you've noticed, you know, these are finishing before football, you know, before noon. So there is a way in which you can go play over these national opens, but PGA tour, I mean, if there's a couple line items that come to your head of yes, like this needs to change, and like this is the most no-brainer thing to do, is it about playoffs, or is there anything else that comes to mind for you? Yeah, so two things, one, I've written about this a little bit, I'd like to write about it more at some point. I think that the, well, I'll give you two different scenarios, and they're gonna be different, but I think you could end the season at the open, and maybe move it back like two or three weeks into August, and just end the season there. It's a very natural, like, climax for the whole year. I mean, we talk about-- - We're on the same page there, because, but isn't it the only issue here, because it's that the open is not owned by the PGA tour? Like that, to me, is like the big problem in that, but you're right, that it is the perfect crescendo. - It is, and you're right about the PGA, all of this is, people don't, like, common fans, like my dad, my dad's a pretty, like, big often. He didn't realize until a few years ago that the PGA championship wasn't run by the PGA tour. That's a very, like, normal, common thing. And that used to be like, oh, you know, kind of a funny talking point. And now it's like, no, you kind of have to understand how all these organizations work together to figure out, like, some of the solutions to this stuff. So I think that's one thing, and then the other scenario, and maybe you can fit these together somehow. The best thing the PGA tour has, or the best property it has, it's not even close to me, is the player's championship. Player's championship is extraordinary. It's amazing. I think it's like, in terms of my interest in intrigue, it's right up there with a major. You can call it whatever you want, but I'm locked in like I am during US Open Week. And so is there a way that you can lean into that as your end of PGA tour a year? Now, that's weird because it's in March, so it's just a weird time. Do you move it again? I don't know what the answer is to that, but... - It'd be hot in August, wouldn't it? - It would not be good. Yeah, it would be very bad in August, but when you have something that is that good, if you're any business, the best thing is to double down on it, right? And so, but I don't, from a scheduling perspective, again, you're battling, I mean, that's an uphill battle against four or five other organizations that you're trying to work with. - I wonder how much of this whole, this larger discussion, 'cause we had this discussion on the pod last night, where we're talking about Camila Vijay, I guess the letter he sent after the PAC meeting at The Strigners, where they're proposing going from 125 cards to 100, and proposing cutting 10 corn fairy tour cards, and we're just, we're talking about the fall schedule, and it's like, hey, this should make the fall more compelling for sure, but our choice one is, we go over and we play Europe, we play this cool place at the DP World Tour, but what we're talking about right now is a set of solutions to a PGA tour problem. So you have to kind of put it in that box. And I think that's where, and you already kind of talked about it here, but just how much of this is, when you're talking about this to friends or family, or where you're talking about this in a newsletter to a larger audience, where it's like, hey, this is the best case scenario, but here are the 10 reasons why this can't happen that involve sponsors or even like resorts. Like, why do you think people, why do you think the Pebble Beach Resort Company wants people to go there in into January and February? That's 'cause, you know, they're selling the course, they haven't booked out during the good months. That's why they're having the tournament in that period of time instead of, you know, in August, when it would make perfect sense as a tour championship climax, but everyone's trying to go play there and pay hundreds of dollars to play it. So is there, is that a frustrating part of what you're trying to do as a rider in golf video? Like, I'd love for it to be this way, and I'd keep suggesting this, but there are just too many realities that prevent it from being that way. - Yeah, I think you have to kind of bucket those into two things, which is the fan perspective and then the non-fan perspective. And most of the news or information that you get is from the non-fan perspective because the PGA tour is player run and there's executives, I mean, this is all about, like what you're describing is all about incentives, right? Where the players that get to vote on a lot of these things on the PGA tour, of course, like, they're incentivized toward wanting more spots and wanting more tournaments. And like, that makes total sense. Like, I don't begrudge anybody for that because if I was in that position, guess what I'd be doing, the exact same thing, right? And so I think the problem has become, and this is sort of how I describe it, is like what's best for player or executive or event sponsor or organizer is not always what's best for fan. And I think those things are, that's true in any sport, I think, but I think it's especially notable in golf because you have so many different organizations because you have the, you know, like the logistics of the PGA tour, just the PGA tour are, you couldn't pay, like if somebody offered me $5 million a year to run the logistics of the PGA tour, I would not do it. It seems, it seems insane. And now you, you, you know, exponentially increase that with other tours and other leagues in corn ferry and all this different stuff. And it's just, it's incredibly difficult. And so I think that's what I'd kind of turned to of like, well, why am I not getting what I want as a fan? Well, some of these logistics are, yeah, do I wish that you could just blow it up and start over and start fresh? Absolutely. But I don't know that that's a reality over the next five or 10 years. Well, Kyle, I mean, I've already asked you, what would you go back and change? So now I'm going to allow you to hold the crystal ball here. So I'm not telling, having you tell us exactly what's going to happen, but if there's something that you feel like that you can predict as we go ahead in the next five to 10 years, whether it's how all these players are going to fit together or maybe if it's the PGA tour and the Saudis and the PIF on how they're going to continue to leverage against each other as they try to find common ground. - Ooh, that's a tough one. It's a lot more fun to think backwards rather than just traditional work. (all laughing) So one prediction that I have, and this is not, I guess it's like sort of tangential to like the PIF and the PGA tour, but I think the European tour will go away over the next five or 10 years. And by go away, I mean be absorbed into some bigger entity, whether that's the PGA tour or if it gets reen, I don't know, I don't know like what's going to happen with that, but it like the clear trajectory of the what used to be the European tours, now the DP world tour is that it will just kind of, I mean, it's already essentially become like a one spot below the top of the pyramid. If you're trying to get to the top. And I think that trajectory will continue. One interesting part of that is going to be the Ryder Cup, you know, that they obviously own the European Porsche, or that property, the European side of the Ryder Cup. So that'll be fascinating, but I just, and maybe that won't happen, who knows, but to me that trajectory seems like a pretty, I don't know about obvious, but it seems like a pretty reasonable one to kind of presume over the next five or 10 years. - Do you expect the Saudis to continue to try to play the leverage game, whether it's players or properties that they could go purchase or organizations? Do you foresee that being their next steps if they can't, you know, find common ground with the PGA tour? - I hope not, it's been miserable. It's been, I mean, it's been interesting, right? We have things that we can talk about in October, but I do wonder, like, this was something I was thinking about the other day. Is the PGA tour just like trying to wait them out right now? Are they trying to say like, we bet you won't give Phil another $200 million? Sorry, I don't know, like, I don't, I don't know if that's a game you want to play for the PGA tour, but it does kind of feel like, guys, I know this is, I know this is complicated. I know there's like all yours involved, but it's not, we're not signing the Treaty of Versailles here. Like it shouldn't, it shouldn't like necessarily take as long as it's taken. So I am curious if from the PGA tour side, if they're trying to kind of wait out some of these contracts and some of this trajectory, and then eventually it just sort of like fades away. There's no business reason to continue with live, right? There's no indication, there's no signal that it's like, this is a good idea. And I just don't know what the Yasser and the people at the PIF, I don't know what their directives are. I don't know what their goals are. Like, what are you trying to accomplish? Especially as nothing is happening in an over a longer period of time. And the more you read, the more you're like, it does seem like the Saudis are kind of pulling back some of their investments globally, you know, not just in sports. So I don't know, I think I would say that I don't think they're gonna make more investment into golf. I think they're just gonna try to get this tour deal done and see where they go from there. - So flip side of that. If, you know, if we're talking about guys who are coming into their contracts, we're not sure whether or not the PIF, the Saudis want to extend those contracts for hundreds of millions of dollars, a Brooks Kepka, Cam Smith, someone in that lane, that player's contract once and he indicates that he wants to come back to the PGA tour. How do you think that is ultimately gonna get handled? 'Cause that's been a topic of much discussion or debate. And maybe, I guess my personal opinion, when it was happening earlier on, it would make sense to maybe lessen the penalties you could hurt Liv by letting a guy come back and taking a prime player for them. Do you think that changes at all if it's just a contract running and they're not re-signing with Liv? I'm just curious how you think the tour is gonna use that as a leverage piece if it means they can pull an asset from Liv back to the tour while there's a whole group of guys that want him penalized or forfeiting money or something of that nature? - Yeah, I don't know because I think the weird question there is how many guys even want to, right? Like Brooks probably does, but does Paul Casey want to play like the, like colonial? - I don't think the answer is pretty obvious. I think plenty of those guys left for the reasons, you know, that they're just getting older. They don't want to play a full schedule and they, it's hard to compete and especially 'cause shoot, it's gonna be hard for these PGA tour guys that have an off year. Let's say a guy like Ricky, for example, who's in all the signature events has a bad year, goes from, you know, into a great spot to potentially off the tour. So they're making it more competitive on the tour, but I don't think many of the guys that have gone to Liv, maybe a couple of them can really, you know, want to have the juice still go compete, right? - Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think that, I remember Dan Rappaport wrote about this before Brookline, I guess it was two years ago about like, hey, what is Liv gonna do to the competitiveness of guys that have gone when they play at the Masters and the Majors and stuff and, you know, this year was not pretty in terms of the Majors other than Bryson, Bryson was very good. Obviously one of the great major seasons ever and Rom played very well at the Open, but other than that, there was just nothing, you know, and so, yeah, I don't, I don't know, guys rejoining is, it would be hilarious to see like, you know, Phil, it like, well, PGA drill, Latino, America, or just something insane, like that would be, that would be incredible. Obviously it won't happen, but I don't know, I don't know how much leverage there is to be had there, 'cause I don't know how much tension there is there between like most of those guys and wanting to come back. - Make us your game day headquarters this football season. Stop by the new ESPN bed at your nearest Penn Play destination. Watch the best games on our giant screen TVs, throw back a few ice cold pints, and tackle the area's best game day food. To find a Penn Play destination near you, visit penplay.com. Score big this football season at your Penn Play game day headquarters, sponsored by ESPN bed. Hope is here, call 800-327-5050 or gamblinghelplinema.org. Must be 21 plus, play it's Mark from the Start Live Janet Gamesensema.com. - Last piece of prognostication. I don't know if this is more optimistic or more dystopian, but I really enjoyed the exchange you had with Sean Zach in your newsletter, and you referenced the piece he wrote, where just talking about looking at the PGA Tour TV product and looking at the growing YouTube golf space and how the tour should borrow from that, even to kind of merge their content ideas with that. And I wonder, this is really going far out, and maybe it's tough to say right now, but as that space continues to grow, is there more and more eyeballs there, as there's more money being spent on that YouTube golf space, where do you think we're gonna be in like five or 10 years? Like do you see it there ever being a tipping point where it actually makes more sense as an advertiser to spend there instead of on a traditional, linear television broadcast, whether it looks like whatever platform that's on for a professional golf tournament? - I think we're already there. I mean, I don't know. So it's been interesting. I've been out drumming up sponsorships for my own newsletter, and I think that a lot of the play for these companies is brain association. So it's not necessarily conversion or whatever, like Callaway wants to be associated with GoodGood, right? For example. And yeah, they might, may or may not sell a ton of golf balls or hats or whatever they're collaborating on making together, but it's a long-term play of taking your legacy brand and associating it with a cool, younger brand. Titleists is doing this with no way enough, right? And I think that what you get in that, for the length of the contract, or if you decide to purchase, if you decide to try to buy one of those businesses, if you're a legacy company buying a smaller business like that, is you get distribution to a million, five million, whatever pretty rabid 27 year old to 38 year old golf fans that have a pretty high disposable income. That sounds like a pretty great deal, right? And I think that is gonna be, I think it's very smart for a legacy media company or legacy companies in general to do that, to partner with companies like that, even to buy them out. I don't know that everybody has recognized that yet. I think it's obvious, and I think clearly some companies do as well, but I don't know that everybody has. I think companies in general, when they spend their ad money, or companies are just slow, right? They're big, like these Titanic-like businesses, and it's hard to turn, it's hard to turn, you know? And so, I think companies that have done it are to be commended, and I think, I mean, I'm probably incentivized to say that as a small company that is looking for advertising dollars, but I do think it's wise for companies to, like legacy businesses to partner with those smaller companies. - Well, you came to the right place, as far as the small shops, trying to get some business dollars coming in. - Small businesses. - Yeah, well, there's a trickle down effect of this too, Kyle, right? When we talk about the PGA tour and the players, for instance, when I was on tour, even well before me, you know, players, it didn't matter who you were. You come up from the CornFairy tour, the web.com, or the Hogan tour, you got a PGA tour contract from these legacy companies like you're talking about the club manufacturers. It was always a big deal. Now, what you're starting to see is the investment, like you said, into more YouTube type of properties that have the big audiences, and then much more of an emphasis on paying their top guys. And then as it trickles down to the rest of the guys on tour, it's not quite as easy to get, you know, the reups, you know, the extensions of making a lot more money. So you're seeing it kind of trickle down to the PGA tour players as well. - Totally. And I think what's interesting about that is, you know, we kind of joke about like is, you know, who's more recognizable in the golf world, Riggs or JT posted? It's not even close, right? Like JT Poston's on national television ever once. And while Riggs has, you know, Barstool has the foreplay, like he's on YouTube all day, every day. And I think that, so I think what you're saying is right, smiling like you're still gonna get the Rory Spieth, Scotty, like whoever the top 10 guys are, top five guys, because they're on TV all the time, whether they're playing well or not. But for the numbers 11 through whatever, it can make more sense to go and sponsor Grant Horvat or whoever who people are, you're betting on whether this guy gets into contention or you're just betting on whether people are just gonna tune in to watch Grant Horvat. It seems like a much less risky bet to kind of go in that direction, which is fascinating. Who could have even envisioned that 20 years ago? That would have sounded insane to people. And now it's just a very normal reality. Well, it's the fact that, you know, now when you look at the PGA Tour socials of Wesley Bryan is playing in an event, it's Tiger Woods-like coverage of Wesley and George playing. And who would have ever seen that Wesley would have ever gotten, and I like Wesley, I'm friends with Wesley, but it's a conversation worth having, right? That he has made himself marketable. The PGA Tour realizes they need to keep trying to grab this audience to watch their stuff like you saw at the creator classic at East Lake, which I think was, I think Charlie definitely saw it as a success. I definitely did from, you know, you got fans excited about seeing how these guys, as they watch on TV, on YouTube to see how they're gonna play on a golf course that will ultimately determine who wins the PGA Tour season-long race. Yeah, and I think that, I think YouTube is so interesting because, you know, my kids who are 11, 10, seven, like they don't even know the difference between YouTube and traditional television, right? And YouTube's the one place where you're like, like if you look at Twitter, you can still see an obvious difference between Twitter and a newspaper. Like there's a differentiation there. And with YouTube, that wall is like completely down. And so that's the one platform that I think has completely erased the past. I mean, it just is like there's no barrier, there's no nothing there. And I think you're gonna continue to see that to happen specifically on, specifically with YouTube. I think that's the place where most of that is gonna keep taking place. Well, Kyle, let's finish this conversation with a snake draft, because if there's anything about guys, it's doing a draft. Guys love a draft. So I was thinking about, you know what? Kyle's a historian, he's our Twitter guy. He's got all the fun stats. So let's do this. Let's go back over the last decade of major championships. And I want each of us in a draft order, you're gonna be the number one pick, and we're gonna draft two each. So you're gonna get the first pick and you're going to get the last pick of what you think was the best major championship over the last decade. So there's gonna be some obvious answers in there at number one pick. You have a lot of pressure here, because I think there's some pretty obvious answers here at the top of the board. Yeah, I'm probably gonna whiff on all of them. Are you saying I have the number one pick? You're gonna start 'cause you are a guest. Charlie then will go second. I'll take the third and fourth. Charlie will get the fifth pick, and then you round us out at six, so. Okay, so we're going back to what? 2014, 2014 Zarkata. Oh, are we including 2014? Well, it's 2014, yeah. That's 11 years of major championships. Technically, that's 11 to be the stickler here. Okay, so we're not a crumb up from the logical podcast. So 15 to 24, which was the Jordan speed, Jason Day, Jordan speed, Zach Johnson year. Yeah, okay, so 15 Masters. And we're drafting based on like just best tournament. It's every category that you can think of, the who won, how they won, just your overall memory of that moment. All those things you can take in, weather, whatever it is, and you can come up with your own sort of criteria. Gosh, I'm gonna, oh, God, this is hard. Cause I mean, I think the obvious one is the 2019 Masters, right? Tiger wins. I was there, it was cool. It was weird because it was in the early Sunday morning, it started it, right? He teed off it, whatever, to finish it one or two. Yeah, it was, that was odd. The ending was incredible. I don't know if that was a great full like four round event, though. I'm gonna bypass that one. I'm gonna say the, I actually wasn't at this event, cause we weren't traveling for COVID still, but I'm gonna say the 2021 PGA Championship at Kiawa. Oh, that's a great one. It was, and it's a little bit selfish cause I think it's very easy to write. I wrote some good stuff on Phil that week. And I think it's so much, I mean, just the 51 year old like pitted against this, you know, Brooks as a legend, like he just was in very easy thing to kind of write toward. And I was locked, I mean, the whole weekend was unbelievable that Phil was doing that, that he was doing it against Brooks, that he was hitting the shots that he hit. He hit that Pels eight into the water on like 13 or whatever. Pels eight. Like there was just so much the drone. He's yelling at Dottie Pepper. Like the whole thing was nuts. Like it was so crazy. That's the week that Jordan had the X on his back, the under armor. It looked like an X. It was the UA. Oh, God. You don't think he had a target on his scene, man. That was a tough scene. We actually sent that picture of the back of his shirt into our group text the other day. Just had to have another good laugh about that. Yeah, I'll say 2021 PGA. Wow. Okay. So Kyle's just passed on the obvious number one overall pick. All right. I'm on the clock. Everyone thinks I'm going to do the thing. I'm going to take the canvas prospect. You're going to take Reggie Bush. But I'm looking out there at a music city hall and I see my fans back there, the hometown fans from North Carolina. And I've been in the war room with Smiley, banging the drum for YouTube, you know, the rise of YouTube goal. This feels like a recency bias, Charlie. It is big time recency bias, but I got to do it for the hometown North Carolina fans. I'm going to go 2024, Bryson over Rory. Wow. And it is definitely recency bias, but I think it's a couple of things. It's definitely a Homer pick. I live an hour from Pinehurst. I love going there. I love everything about it. I love taking the family there. Thought they did such a fantastic job setting up that course in a way that was a very fair major championship test, but not ridiculous over the edge. And just even the conversations we had that week, Smiley, about just the theater of that final round of Rory and Bryson, you know, looking back at each other and trying to see what the other had done and what chess piece had moved on the board, scoreboard watching the drama of Rory's missed putts coming down the stretch and then Bryson's insane bunker shot. I was completely riveted by this. I know it's recency bias, but I'm doing the Homer pick. I'm taking, I'm taking 2024 of Pinehurst number two, Bryson. - I mean, this is great guys. I mean, y'all are making it easy on me. (laughing) It seems kind of obvious to me that the first, I thought Tiger Woods 2019 Masters was gonna be the number one pick. It's, it should have been taken number one. I understand the reasoning of, of, of weather, how that impacted just a perfect Sunday down the stretch and maybe four rounds. But I felt like the, the drama on that Sunday of Tiger being able to pull off the shots and everybody else not. I think just made that win just feels so much, so much bigger because Tiger has always been able to hit the shots under pressure and, and all of these guys like Brooks Kepka who had been just on a roll, man. Like this guy is crushing it in the major. He's the next big thing. Just can't hit the shot on 12. Moanari like on a roll. Can't hit the shot on 12 and then can't hit the shot on 15. So give me Tiger number one. It seems pretty obvious. And in the snake draft as it comes back to me, I have a couple different ways I've been like looking at this. And, and I want to go to a place in 2019 again. And I think it's going, I'm probably going to land on this, although I'm going back and forth between 2015 Jordan speed that the Masters, but I don't want to go to at the same venue. So I'll leave that potentially for somebody else because that outside of the Tiger Woods Masters, that Jordan speed 2015 for whatever reason, just a new American star on the scene. I thought it was one of my favorite Masters ever to watch, but I'm going to go to 2019 Shane Wowery. I think with just, I think with just him being from, from Ireland, I think the storylines there. I think it's so difficult as a professional to play with, with every bit of ounce of expectations from a nation that hasn't had an of the Open Championship in like 68 years. And all the pressures on worry, Macroy, and, and then here's Shane Lowery and just goes out. And maybe not the most exciting Open Championship or major championship over the last decade. But as far as storylines go, I think outside of the Tiger one, like to me, the Shane Wowery winning at Royal Port Rush is a, for me, the number two. I had Larry Port Rush on the big board, how to cross that one off now. I had, I had 15 speed at the Masters on the big board as well, who's still up there. I, I think, and listen, Rory McElroy, if you're listening or watching to this, I promise I have no vendetta against you. Just, just, these are the majors that are resonated with me personally. 150th Open Championship, 22. Cam Smith just going sicko mode with the putter on Sunday. You know, obviously again, a tough finish for Rory and one that it would have been maybe even higher on the list of majors that were meaningful if Rory had actually pulled through and won the thing. But I was, you know, I still love Cam Smith. I was a big, a pre-lived Cam Smith guy and watching him get it done in that fashion at the old course was just pure electricity in my mind. So that's where I'm going with, with my, with my pick. It's a good one. How big is your board, by the way? You mentioned like, it's a, it's a big board. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's back in my war room. Lots of souls. We got a lot of people on payroll here. For the two round draft, that's great. You got to prepare a cow, you know. Just, just wait, we got, we have another draft right after this. And it's a one, it's a one answer one. So that's a totally different board. Um, yeah, there's, I'm, I'm staring at him right now. Um, I, I thought Fitzpatrick at Brookline was amazing. Mm. Uh, gosh, I don't, the, the 2016 Open at Trune, I, I mean, that was. That was one of the best battles, right? Yeah, I think, I think I'm between that one and the 2017 Open, that's speed one. Oh, yeah. That was pretty dang good too, for different reasons. That's normal sport, a normal sport guy would take the 20s. Yeah, I think I, I think I have to take that one just because of everything that happened. I mean, I think Kuchar played the last six and like one under and just got his face smashed by, by, just got his soul taken by speed. Um, yeah, I got to go with that one. You had go get that you had, um, I mean, speed, it was, I think he was the whole after the crazy, you know, surrender Cobra thing, uh, that he, he almost made a one. He almost hit the, hit the pin on, I think it was 14 or 15, which he also almost did in 2016 at, uh, on, on 16 on Sunday at Augusta, um, after obviously that gaff, he, he, the shot, the approach that he had on 16 was like right at the pin. I think it went right over it. Um, so he has a, he has a penchant for doing that, but yeah, I'll go 2017 open. That was, I think that was my favorite golf Twitter three hours of all time. I mean, it was like, I just remember, I think it was Kevin Van Volkenberg said, uh, God saved the queen at one point just total chaos and it's like God save the queen. It was, it was insane. It was the best. Well, make sure that for all you do that are watching and listening, comment, what's your favorite ones? Where did we miss out? How did we do? That was a fun exercise and we're going to close this exercise with a similar exercise, which is what was the worst major in the last 10 years? And this will just be a one, this be a one pick here. This isn't going to be a two timer because, uh, we could probably do that for, uh, it seems like it just makes sense to do one. So call again, you are a guest. So why don't you? We're going to lead off of you here again. Can I, can I get here because I feel like, I feel like smiley should lead off. I feel like we should flip this smiley. I feel like there's only one way you can go in this, right? I mean, I mean, should you just go ahead and take your pick off the board? I won't take it. It's, it's, it's pretty obvious. I'm going to take the 2016 masters for, for obvious reasons. Um, you know, I don't think, uh, my day was, uh, you know, it was, it wasn't great. You know, I would say that an 81 wasn't what I was looking for on Sunday, uh, but also, you know, Jordan not winning after potentially going back to back and just completely annihilating that property and, and being the Augusta whisper and then have it all fall apart. And then having Danny will it when it was like, what just happened? So I think for, I speak for a lot of golf fans and I speak for myself, um, that I would probably pick that at number one. Um, the other honorable mention is the 2020 open championship. Yes. Yeah. Non-existent one. Electric bounce back vacation though, smiling. Many people, they don't forget. They remember. So at least you have that. Circular. You go up next. Yeah. Well, two things on, on 2016 real quick. One of the great what ifs in golf history is, uh, Danny Willett's baby was born early, which allowed him to play in the master's that year. Wow. Yeah. People forget he was Scottie Scheffler before Scottie Scheffler. He got, he got slightly fewer questions about it than Scottie did. And then two, I think it was Justin Ray that had this stat. Um, speaking of Justin Ray, our, our, our boy, are you the only, was that the only master she played in? Smiley. Yes. Yeah. Are you the only person to ever only play in one master's, but also play in the final group? I think so. It's, it's, if you're going to do the masters, you might as well just kind of check all of the things off the list, hole in one, final group. Yeah. So there was a stat this year with Ludwig where like the lowest, uh, the sub 70 round for first time master's player as well. I forget the exact. Yeah. Yeah. So I got, uh, on Saturday and that was the lowest score of the day. So I think Ludwig and I, he's, he's finally joining himself in some elite companies. So it's for sure. Good to see you. Oh, better. Uh, find himself in some golf history, nobody's ever teed off after Smiley at, on Sunday at the masters. Yeah. There you have it. That's a, that's a great one. Put it on the LinkedIn profile. Um, I'm going to go with the 2016, that's a great bio. I need to like change my Twitter bio. That's a fantastic, fantastic idea. Yeah. Sorry. We're going to put that on the T-shirt. Thank you. I would, would wear, uh, I'm going to get a 2016 PJ championship, uh, not sure where, you need to pick a 2016 also, Charlie, cause we're just going across the board here, but okay. Let me see. I'm not sure it even happened. Uh, Jimmy Walker allegedly be Jason Day. I remember almost nothing. I think they played 36 on Sunday. It was a weird weather one. It was just not, not the greatest, uh, major championship that's ever been played. 2016 majors, just, uh, we're taking these off the board right now. Well, we, we, we, we almost, we considered 2016, uh, Ed Trune for Stinson. We agree. That was a good one. Yeah. Dustin Johnson, Oakmont. Well, it's good too. That was a good one. That was a good one. So I think I'm going to, I'm going to skip on those two. I'm going to, I'm going to end up going. It's a little unfair because honestly, like my, my remembrance of the 2020 fall masters was I'm so glad that we have something to watch again that feels high leverage and it's a unique, it was a different experience seeing a gust in a different sort of shape, but to see a master's one at 20 under, like I, you get to the end of the term and you're like, Oh no, wait, wait, I don't think I wanted it to happen like that. And so I think, I think for me that was, I, I still weird mixed feelings about it, but I probably say that one for me is the one that is, that's a good call. Feels weird. Can we all agree that potentially if it weren't for the drama being Zander, Bryson and Victor, the PGA championship this year, that, that there was all the other stinker categories were like checked off, but you had a very exciting finish. Is that it? Do we feel like that's why that maybe wasn't included on the list? Yeah. I think so. I mean, I think PGA's are hard because I think one thing I don't, or I haven't liked about some of the PGA's is it's hard to make double and triple, right? And when that's the K, it's even hard to make bogey sometimes. I mean, I remember was at Zander on like four this year when he pulled it way left down in that and you're like, I think he still made par maybe made five or something. I think that can be, yeah, that can be frustrating for sure. Well, this was fun, Kyle. And we definitely would like to have you on again, because this was, you know, we covered so many great topical items that Charlie and I discuss every single day and nauseam. So it's nice to have another voice in here, a voice of reason, if you will, but when it comes to some of these line items that we discussed and for those of you that are just now discovering Kyle Porter and you like what you hear and you like what you see, make sure you go subscribe and you go sign up for his newsletter, the newsletter that he just started, normal sport.com. Kyle does a tremendous job at what he does. He's easily one of my favorite follows on Twitter and has just got this newsletter going. So you'll make sure you go check it out and Kyle, we appreciate your time. This was a lot of fun and hopefully we'll have a fun workshop for you the next time you come on. Bring up, bring a big board next time, I've given smiley a new Twitter profile. I mean, it's, it's been a successful day. We can, we can hang them up today. We're good to go. The nobody is teed off after me at the Masters and I think that's the best way to close this thing out. Thank you. Thanks guys. 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Smylie Kaufman and Charlie Hulme are joined by Kyle Porter, who has gone independent with his "Normal Sport" newsletter (which you can sign up for at NormalSport.com) after twelve years of covering golf for CBS.