Hello and welcome to episode 62 of the Panatic Podcast, a weekly show where we talk about Penn's paper and the analog tools that we love so dearly. My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by the rightiest writer in all of the right land, Mr. Brad Downey. Oh man, how timely is that? That was awesome. You continue to amaze me and we'll definitely have to get that updated in the official mascot kununi Renishin's list because that's a keeper. Do you want to introduce our other guests in the same way because I'm interesting to how that would turn out? The one who's left. You weren't going to go with the leftiest leftist? It hasn't got the same. I wanted to see how you were going to pull that off, and that's Anna Ren and hi Anna. Hi, how are you today? Very great. Thanks for coming back. No problem. I'm very pleased that you have. We are very, very happy that you came back on and Anna is from, for all those that don't know, Anna is from the well appointed desk blog, who she does a fantastic job over there and we've had her on the podcast before and you should go back and listen to that episode and we love having her back and we hope to have her back many more times in the future, thank you. So on that episode, on the episode that we did last time together, we spoke about left and right handed people because I finally was able to adjust the imbalance and we found another left handed person, which only feels fair, I think, to gang up on Brad. Absolutely. I deserve it more than you know. I deserve all the ganging up upon that, I like it though, I can handle it. But we have a follow up before that, right? Yeah, a little follow up, really more some kind of a newsy topics, but I don't normally do news type things on my blog, so the podcast is good for those type of things that I definitely want to focus on. Like for example, today news came, I've become an Edison pin fan recently as I get dig this deeper hole into the fountain pin world and you know, there's some models of pins that of theirs that I like and the design and now that I own a couple, I really like the build quality and feel of them. So Brian Gray from Edison pins announced a new production line coming this week and the way Edison pin is set up, they have a list of retailers, say like Gully pins, Anderson pins, Gold Spot pins and several other ones, they have a list on their on their page and Edison makes a production line of pins right now. We can go to their website, we'll have the links in the page, there's you know maybe five or six, they're essentially considered that the standard model from Edison pin. There's one called the Beaumont, the Herald, the Collier, Hudson and one, a couple they do specifically for Gully pins. They're adding one to this production line and I wanted to bring that up because I think it's important that you know, Brian doesn't do these type of things very often, he's not adding production, not all of his pins are made into a production line. Some are called the signature line, which is a couple of pins that I have are from the signature line and they're more expensive and you know, not quite as accessible, readily accessible and you kind of almost have to get them custom made. Well this production line, Brian keeps adding to it and I don't know how often he does it but it's not that frequent like maybe once a year at the most, if not I don't recall ever seeing in addition to the production line. So I just wanted to point that out for those who like fountain pins, like Edison pin company, if they haven't seen it yet, stay tuned for on Brian's site later this week, I think he said he's going to announce it Thursday and he's already released the colors that they're going to be and yeah, I'm checking how much money I have in my PayPal account right now, so I'm going to definitely be looking at one of these once I see what the model is here. But the colors look great. It's kind of a little bit scared. You're scared? Uh huh. You're scared that you might like it? Mhm. Yeah, you know, I'm not a huge fan of the existing production line pins. I don't like the colors of them really. I could pick maybe one or two out of all the ones available that I would actually purchase. These all three of these colors look spectacular I think. Oh, one do you like the most? The blue for sure, but the gold, actually probably an order on the picture. There's a blue one, a blue kind of swirl, a gold flake and a red flake that's probably from left to right, one, two, three. But I mean, it's really close. They're all nice. I want to see the whole picture and see what the design is anyway, so I like the gold one because it's kind of like tool to show like and I really like that pattern all the time. So I want to see the full pictures of them on a do you have any, do you have an Edison pen? I do not, but those look very intriguing. Yeah, so we'll have to see what the model that it, when it gets announced on Thursday. So to see what it, to see what it looks like. So, you know, Brian didn't, you know, didn't ask me to talk about it, but I thought this was kind of a big deal just because he doesn't do this kind of thing very often. He's always, you know, introducing cool stuff and, you know, for a guy that started this company, you know, in his backyard from scratch. I mean, I think he deserves all the credit and praise in the world for really doing a killer job. So I'm interested to see what happens the rest of this week and I will definitely be tweeting out if I buy one, but it's kind of looking like yes, but we'll have to see what it looks like. So anyway, Mike, you had a, you wanted to talk about field notes again, you're continuing down that path of the everyday usage or do you have something else? A bit of both, so 0.1, I am using my field notes every day. I'm halfway through a book already. It's changing everything. Like I'm writing, yeah, I'm writing so much stuff now, it's awesome. And I'm starting to use my moleskin book at work differently. So I'm using it like solely for meetings and quick notes and stuff I'm using and putting in field notes. I'm really happy with that, but this is just an interesting observation. So today at work, I was using an America the Beautiful field notes book because I was at a meeting at another company and my, I didn't have a moleskin or something. And my dark sky, my current field notes dark sky is looking a bit tatty now and I kind of wanted to look a little bit professional, so get out of fresh note, like field notes book from my rucksack, because I have a couple in there. And then when I was back at the office, I was using that just to sort of process the notes from that meeting of the morning and two separate people on my team noticed and complimented the notebook. And I find it very interesting because that's never happened before. And when I use, I've used other field notes or any other type of notebook which I have used of which of course there have been many. And two people noticed it, so tomorrow I'm actually going to take a pack to work and give out a couple to some of my co-workers. Wow. Because longtime listeners will recall that I received about 100,000 editions, the America the Beautiful. Do you remember this? Yeah, that's right. You got the double order. I got a double double. So I have four packs in total of them. And I like them, but I don't need that many. If I just use them, it will be many months before I can use any others. So I still have another three packs here, so I figure I can go in and spread the love a little bit with some people working for them that they might like that, they both seem very intrigued. Both women, I don't know if that means anything, but maybe they're pictures, I mean, because I think that they're very beautiful, I mean, I know, I think a lot of people, not a lot of people, but there seem to be a mixed reaction to them. And I think it's just because they looked extremely different. But I think standalone, they are, in my opinion, one of, if not the most beautiful looking edition they've done. Yeah. And I have to feel about the America the Beautiful line. I really liked them when they came out, but I did hear a lot of the same feedback that you did that there were some people who felt like they were so different from the very plain craft paper designs that were done originally for the covers that a lot of people found the full color covers to be, I don't know, too unexpected. But I think that they were very true to sort of what Koodle and the gang from Field Nuts was trying to do with the whole concept, which is those pocket notebooks. And historically, in the United States, a lot of those pocket notebooks that people got in the '40s and '50s and '60s were actually printed with artwork or graphics, those sort of farmer notebooks that they keep in their pockets that had the corn logo on it or whatever. So they kept very true to sort of that Americana feel, which I think they had wanted to do with all of them. I don't know if they'll ever do another design quite like that, so I think that's also something that to me makes it very appealing. You know, they've gone back with the night sky to a very traditional, I mean, from the standpoint of what Field Nuts looks like with just the block lettering on the front, so they did do it in foil and they added the details on the back, which is really cool, but they've kept to a much more sort of the sort of traditional what they've become known for in the look. I stand by that detail, that holographic detail is probably my favorite detail of any addition that they've had. I think that that is just such an awesome little thing. I really like it, too. Yeah, it looks fantastic. And I think the Americas is beautiful, basically it was this year's Americana edition, like last year was the national crop edition, which I thought was killer. I love that edition. It's the nod to the origination of this whole company, essentially. I mean, that's how they got started, right? I mean, based on doing something around the design of these traditional notebooks, in my stance on the America that is beautiful, while I liked it, it's not one of my favorite editions, but I did say that at the retail point of sale, this one should just do gang busters, I would think, just because it looked for people that aren't familiar with it and are walking to a store and seeing a field notes display. This thing is it's going to pop like nothing else, and that's probably the one they're going to come home with, so I think they did a great job with it. Still not sold out there. Nope, still not sold out, which I just find endlessly interesting. I don't know what to make of that, but honestly, it's interesting, especially the way the night sky has gone, but I mean, you can't go wrong with these black notebooks. I mean, people just eat those up. It's almost an unfair fight. Yeah, if they were always black, like always all black, they would always sell out. It was just like a different black notebook, but I liked it then, not. I liked that they do these off-the-wall things, that's one of my, that is why they're one of my favorite companies of this stuff. Anyway, what do you want to talk about next? Yes, no, and kind of on that same field notes topic, and I wasn't thinking about this, you know, before, I don't know, until like an hour or two ago, I'm on vacation this week, and I was scrolling through Instagram, you know, looking just at pictures, killing some time, and I happened to notice Anna was on vacation last week, and she sent a picture out speaking of field notes with her field notes and her retro 51, I guess, on the dashboard of the car. I don't know if you were driving home or what you're doing, and was that an Alabama edition I saw? Yes, it is. My husband is from Alabama, so he has a full set of the Alabama edition. Oh, there's one right here. I'll actually have the state fair editions from every state I've ever lived in. Nice. I said nice thing. Yeah. I wish they would make UK ones. They never will, but I wish that they would. Well, well, good to know your husband's from Alabama, there's no wonder I like him so much, so that's a good, he's a good southern boy like me, so. Yes, he is. I'll take that. But anyway, my thought was, you know, seeing this, and your own vacation, your own trip to your husband, and you're driving about checking out the, you have a great Instagram stream. You go to all these places and take these great pictures and stuff, and I don't know that huge fountain pen picture, and we'll put a link to Anna's Instagram, and I don't know if she wants us to share or not, but I'm sure she doesn't care. But what made me think when I saw the picture is like, okay, you're on vacation, and you're taking this notebook, and are you journaling what you did on vacation, or are you doing something specific with it, or you just have it available, you know, if something strikes you? Because I kind of have a, I have a take on this too, but I kind of want to hear what you think. Well, we were using the notebook for two purposes. One, we were playing the license plate game, but we didn't have it, so we made it up in the notebook, and two, my husband and I like to make lists, and it can be anything from like your top five Desert Island reads, or your top five Desert Island albums, or just stuff like that. So, like while we're driving, you're in the car for, you know, we were in the car for almost 10 hours each way on our trip. So a lot of times it's just you think of things you need to do, and so we write it down because really when you're trapped in the car, there's not many things that you can accomplish, especially not when you're in the middle of Iowa, where there's no cell phone network at all. You can't even like email or post pictures on Instagram or anything, so we were just, you know, writing stuff down that we wanted to do when we got home and that kind of thing. And for the record, our license plate game, we got 26 out of 50 states. Wow, that's pretty solid for a 10 hour trip. I think that's pretty good. We were crossing the Mississippi River, and traffic was really, really backed up, and I drive a very small car and I tore down the side lane, and every car we passed were like another state, another state, another state. So we kind of, we got like 20 of them right there. Oh, that's so great. So what was the hardest one you think you found? Did you have any Alaska or Hawaii or something weird you didn't think you'd see? We saw one that was Maryland, and we were having, we didn't find a lot because we were traveling from Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, all the way to the Kansas border, which is where Kansas City is. So we knew we'd get those four states, and probably some other Midwestern, Minnesota shouldn't be that hard to get, Oklahoma, Arkansas, you know, those people are all kind of traveling in that area, but we knew we wouldn't get many on the East Coast. So Maryland was a big catch. That's funny. Well, that's cool. I need to do, I think I need to do that more, you know, with my kids and my family in the car. I think that's a great idea. Just making lists, having fun, passing the time, making some games. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. If my kids are quite old enough to do the license plate game, but I think that's coming soon. So maybe we'll each get our own notebook and we'll take off after it. We also play cows and cemeteries. What is that? Cows and cemeteries, depending on which side of the car you're sitting in, if cows show up on your side of the car, you call cows and you get a point and whoever's on the other side of the car, say, on the passenger side, gets everything on that side. But if you see a cemetery on their side, you call cemetery, they lose all their cow points and vice versa. I can't believe you've never heard of it. I have not heard of it, but we're going to go with Field Notes as the recommended notebook brand for the game Cows and Cemeteries. Okay, sounds good. That sounds like a marketing campaign, if I could make a cow and cemetery version. Ooh, one that has a little hosting prints. Maybe that's their next idea is a game print paper. Keep the cover the same, but you know, inside have some kind of game scoring tracking insides. You know, like Scrabble Points, yeah, all kinds of different things, Scrabble Points, Yahtzee, all the normal things. Sorry. All right, we've gone totally off the rail here. So, yeah. Sorry about that. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a fun conversation. I love it. I love it. But I was thinking, you know, my usage of pens on vacations is almost the opposite thing. Like people go on like a technology break when they go on vacation. I seem to not purposely do it, but I end up going a whole vacation without using pens or paper at all. I'll have my phone, you know, and if I need anything or check in on anything or, right, I've written more notes on my phone this week than pen and paper. I don't know if it's just because I'm not at my house or even though I'm carrying stuff with me, carrying fountain pens, carrying paper, I just don't seem to have it ready. Like I always do when I'm not on vacation. So it's kind of like this backwards some, I don't know, you know, break from the analog, which seems it seemed kind of odd to me. That's why I wanted to bring that up when I saw you using your pens and papers. So voraciously on your vacation, I'm like, I haven't touched a pen or paper this week, I don't think. Even though I brought like my fountain pens, my fountain pen case and a rodeo webby and things like that in case I wanted it, I just haven't touched it. But you know, as soon as I get back home, I'll have like everything out of the closet, like rummaging through everything like, oh, I missed my babies while I was gone. It's just the oddest thing. So I don't know. Because one of the things I did notice is I like to stop like whenever we stop at a convenient store or a gas station, I always like to look for postcards to send to people. And postcards are not always uncoated paper, a lot of times they're that glossy, shiny paper. So it was something that I don't normally carry like a ballpoint pen, which is sort of what you really need if you're going to write on glossy paper. So that was one of my big challenges. So a couple of the gel pens worked that I had in my bag worked okay. But you know, fountain pens on glossy papers, a bad deal. Yeah, that is a bad deal. So well, cool. I just wanted to get your feedback on that. And I think I think it's time to really get into the nitty gritty on this episode, Mike. So why don't you, why don't you take it away and then we'll get to it. I assume you mean, let's take a break for our sponsor. Yes, sir. So I'd like to take a moment to thank our fine sponsor, TheGreatPeople over at Squarespace.com, who give you absolutely everything that you need to make an amazing website. Squarespace provides you with all of the tools that you need to create a blog, portfolio site, any website, maybe you want to create a site for your business, even integrate a store into that site. You can do it all because Squarespace is a fully hosted, completely managed environment. Now, what that means is that you don't have to worry about any of the nasty stuff or the really tricky stuff when it comes to putting a website on the internet. 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Squarespace plans start at $10 a month for their standard plan and you will get discounts if you use our code "Tallyhose7" and you'll get even more discounts if you sign up for one of that and your plans as well. So go check out Squarespace, everything that you need to make an amazing website. Awesome, I like that. You said do something awesome. That's exactly right. Thank you. Tallyhose. Tallyhose. That's the... When you say I just get the hugest grin on my face, I'm trying not to bust out because I love that they did a good job on that and they did a good on Squarespace for that. They know what we're doing. All right, so we wanted to have Anna back and I could have Anna back every episode quite honestly. She's an awesome, awesome guest and we'll have to effort that one day, but we want to have Anna back for the specific conversation about left-handers versus right-handers and the challenges, the issues we have, the differences mainly between being a left-handed writer and a right-handed writer and if you weren't paying attention in the beginning, both Mike and Anna are left-handed and I'm right-handed. So I wanted to get both of y'all on to have this discussion around some of the issues that people have brought up to us in trying to find pins that suit their needs, especially because it comes honestly, it comes mostly from left-handers, right? I mean, how many emails do you get Anna or a comment saying, "Hey, I'm right-handed and I'm really having trouble finding the right pin because I'm right-handed. Have you ever had one of those?" I have not. I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't imagine. But your left-handed problem exists, I can't imagine there is an issue. Right, but the left-handed readers always start out, "Hey, I'm left-handed. What pin is going to work best for me?" Right? I mean, it's a huge deal. It's a very, very important topic. Well, and I think a lot of that comes from pre-existing sort of myth out in the world that left-handed people cannot use fountain pens or they have to use special types of fountain pens in particular. And so I think that very much colors people's perspective to think that they, because you're left-handed, you somehow have to use a special left-handed fountain pen or something like that, which I am here to tell you is a lie. Right. And we will definitely disprove that as we go. So let's just get a few of the details out there for right-handers like myself who don't have to experience some of these challenges. Both of you, I know I've talked to you both individually and I don't know if we've covered it before. I think we did cover it on the last time you were on on just how you hold the pin. How is your writing style different from, say, a right-hander on a regular pen or a fountain pen? Do you hold a jell-ing pen one way in a fountain pen a different way? Just explain about your writing style, then Mike, do you explain about yours? And so we can just kind of get a basis. I'll just, just because I've done a lot of research over the years, I'll start off with common terminology about left-handed writers and that they tend to describe them as either overriders and there's several different ways that people do that, but it basically means that their hand is held above the line on which they're writing. So assuming you're writing on graph paper or on lined paper, your hand would be above the line that you're writing on. And then there's underwriters, which is very comparable in terms of hand position to what most right-handed people do, which is that their hand is below the line that they're writing on. They also decide the price of your insurance premium. That is a horrible joke. I get it. I get it. And underwriters. Such a bad joke. Oh, man. That was horrible. It was really bad. Well, that was one of the reasons you became an actuary, but I was just slow to the joke. That would go down an absolute storm at work. I need to try and find what's going on. So wait, is storm good? Sure. Okay, good. I'm actually an overwriter, so I do hold my hand above the line that I'm writing on. And it's often referred to as a hook because not only do I hold my hand above, but I don't angle my paper in what is normally considered the correct angle, which is that I angle my paper the same way that a right-handed person would. So it's the top of the paper is angled up to the left and comes down to the right. And it's just probably because a right-handed person taught me to write. So they said, you know, angle your paper this way. And in order for a left-handed person to get the right angle, you kind of just turn your whole body around to make it work. So do you change the angle of the paper when you're writing or I mean, do you, is it something you notice? Like you have to make a concerted effort to say, hey, you know, or I mean, it's just, it's like a second nature type thing, right? When you're sitting down to write, it's just kind of shifted in the right direction and you're ready, you're set to go. It is. The only times that I really ever noticed it was like, you know, in high school when they have those desks that had the arm that came up on the right-hand side so that you could rest your elbow and write for a lefty, that thing was just in the way. It didn't do anything because my, you know, it was open on our side. So you kind of really, that was the only time I really noticed it was super awkward. And then at work, when they were teaching me to do calligraphy, really find calligraphy is very hard to do as an over, as a, an overwriter. So when I do any kind of, if you ever get anything in the mail for me, that's very filigree and, and more of a calligraphic quality than chances are, I actually changed my hand position and did an underwriting thing. But for the most part, I'm very awkward when I do that. Do you practice that? I do practice. Yeah. I mean, I think, I would think you would have to. I mean, you'd have to get that repetitiveness of the, the, the nib and the direction and the, the letters and yeah. Mike, you're just listening to Ana and talking to you, you know, over the years, you're pretty much the same style, overwriting, right? And how do you, we've talked about it several times, but just give us a refresher on kind of how you're holding the pen to write and especially, I want to know about the angle of the paper because I don't know if we've discussed that before. So I'm definitely an overwriter and now I'm pleased I have a term for it rather than trying to explain it in a very abstract way. And I think that typically I have my paper either with the left hand corner slightly lowered in the right hand corner. So I tilt the paper ever so slightly down on the left hand side or I will have the paper level with the desk. So straight, straight on, which sounds, I mean, the straight on seems like a weird way to do things, but having, I guess, having it tilted towards the left is probably a good thing. I would seem with the way that I hold paper on a hat. Just is yours the same way? Mm hmm. Yeah. Because that's how, because in essentially you're saying that's because a right hander told you how to, how to write because that's how a right hander would do it too, right? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. That's, that's. I think because Mike and I are a little bit older, we were probably taught in school to just sort of do your best to be just like the other kids, where I think now a lot of teachers who are teaching young children to write are at least aware that a left handed child may need to have their paper angled the other way so that they can write from underneath. And that helps to eliminate a lot of what lefties have issues with, which is smudging their writing as they go because when your hand is above, eventually your two or three lines down the paper. And so now your arm is resting on what you've just written. Yeah. Like, I didn't come into contact of a left handed pair of scissors until I was like 12. And so I was kind of a bit late. At which point they were useless, right? Yeah. They'd be like, you can use the green and yellow handed scissors. I'm like, well, okay, but now I can't cut anything. So you use them. I don't think I ever used left handed scissors until like, I don't know, maybe five years ago. And I could kind of get the hang of it, but boy, it was really awkward because I grew up with nothing but right handed scissors. So I did learn how to use those. Yeah, this sounds nightmarish. It sounds like a such a challenge. You have a difficult. It's a little monkey. If you've turned into a left handed sympathizer already, man, you've got your y'all are converting me already. Yeah. I feel bad. I feel bad. One of the things very early on in my blog and this is before, you know, I've given any thought to, okay, people write differently than I do. One of my left handed readers sent me a very, very interesting email and one of the things he said had stuck with me through the years and Ana has said the same things and some of the notes that she shared with me. And it's that lefties, lefties push the pin, righties pull the pin, right? Am I saying that right? Yeah. So lefties push the pin across the page and righties pull it across the page. And that's an issue because of nib design, especially in roller balls, ball points and gels, because what that does is, you know, paper fibers and ink and everything gets pushed in that, where that ball seals with the tip of the pin, it's a sharp edge. So you really, you know, if you're not holding the pin at a particular angle, that sharp edge is really digging into the paper as a left hander rights, right? Do I, am I saying that correctly? Yep. Yeah. I mean, maybe that's why, I mean, I have all, I've never really thought of that before, but maybe that's why I tend to be very critical of, you know, any rough nib design. And maybe for me personally, it's why I tend not to like finer pens because, I mean, you're probably going to disprove this for me, Anna, but I tend not to like finer pens because they are rougher for me. So I probably feel that more. I know, I think that's, I, I did not realize, I, I really like the look in my handwriting is very small. So I really like the look of a fine tip pen, be it fountain pen or gel or anything like that. But it wasn't until I got the pilot para with an EF nib that I realized that I have my limits because of the angle that I write at, I basically was constricting the ink flow completely because I was pushing the pen, not pulling it. And it was just too fine, like nothing was coming out. I kept trying different inks to see if I could get it to flow better. And I finally realized it's me, it's not the pen. Not playing nicely. So I went up to, I think a fine and that was better. Yeah, and that's, that's one of those things that stuck with me all the, all these years. It's, it's, once you, you know, test out a few pens and start writing in them at different angles, it's a completely different performance and, you know, you have to have those considerations for how other people write. That's why the hardest question that I get, and I don't know, and you might get Anna is, you know, what pen is best for me? I mean, it's such an impossible question just for reasons like this. I mean, having, having a roller ball to a fine gel tip, pushing across the page is, I mean, you're just going to eat up the paper, it seems like to me. So it's hard. It's a, it's real hard for lefties that write, especially over writing to use those, those fine, fine tips. Actually, the pen that causes me the most heartache of all is the uniball vision, the roller ball. I can't write three letters with one of those before they die on me. Wow. It's something about, and I don't know how, what the combination of the ink, which is more of a liquid ink than a gel ink and the ball. I can't even write a grocery list with one of them. They'll just stop working. And I'm like, why are these always dead when I pick them up and somebody else will pick it up and go, no, it works just fine. And I'm like, that's weird, because I use and have used days and have been fine with them. That's strange. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've always been actually quite a fan of the vision elite. Yes. See, I can't write more than, than three letters with them because I hate them. It's not a lefty, righty thing. The vision elite's fine. The regular vision, I can't stand that pen. Oh, the regular vision, not the elite. Oh, I've not used the regular one. Yeah. Those are, those are in every office in America is a, is a jar full of those and I can't use them at all. But the gel, like most of the gel pens, like the, I'm actually sitting here right now, writing notes with a pilot juice. And it works like a dream, so I don't have any problems with it. Oh, that's quite interesting. That's cool. Is it the point five? Yep. Yeah. I'll never, never quite. Well, like it over that website. That was one of the great moments in podcasting history when we, when we played around with that website. That thing is, it's too fantastic. I'm going to put that episode in the show. I feel like people need to find out about that website via listening to the show. Yep. Then the show notes for this episode can be found at five by five dot TV slash pen addict slash 62. And where can they find the show? No, it's my, that was my day in it. Day in impression. It was. He always has to drop that in on every episode he does. It's the way that it should be done, I think. It's just, it's a thing. It's more, it's, it's smart, it's smart. That's why he, that's why he's the boss man. Mm hmm. All right. So back on the, back on the fountain pen topic. So that's interesting. I haven't heard you tell this a prayer story before about having, you know, the issues with a super, super fine nib not being able to, not basically not getting any, any, any ink flow out of it was the issue, right? So what, talk more a little bit more about fountain pens, what types work well for you as a lefty Anna. And what other, if there's any other ones you've had challenges with, um, for me, and I, I will say it a million times. I love the Quico sports. They just write awesome for me. I never have any problems with them. And you know, for the price point, I just, I don't, I never feel bad about carrying them around. Um, but I've used both the, um, the extra fine and the fine, um, and I have a double broad that I use as a highlighter. And I do have one of the calligraphy nibs, the 1.1 millimeter, which I'm not as fond of. And that sort of leads into the topic of lefties and using, um, stub or, um, italic nibs, which is a slightly different topic. We can, we'll get to that in a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, um, for the most part, I find for me, like a fine nib, um, particularly with the European nibs, um, is good cause when I get into the medium nibs, um, they tend to put too much ink down on the paper. And then I have the whole like ink drawing. I have to be very particular about the types of inks that I put in it that are quick drawings that I'm not rubbing it all over the paper. Yeah, I know that's a massive issue and we're going to talk about, we're going to have some recommendations on that too. Um, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say I've used, um, Twisbees and, um, a lot of other, you know, a lot of the other fountain pens that we've talked about. The one that I do go back to again and again, then I have an issue with is the mommy safaris that have that molded plastic grip, which is great if you're an underwriter because it really does force you to use a proper grip, but if you're a left handed writer and you do overwrite, um, it is very awkward to, to be able to angle the pen to get that ink on the paper. Yeah, I just ignore that grip. Well, and then I end up finding that it will cut and, you know, you have to angle it in such a way that that grip cuts into your fingers. And so I have just abandoned the, the lami safari, um, all together, I have a lami studio, which has a standard, like sort of, um, round barrel that I, I do like to use. Have you ever used a vanishing point? I have not. I tested one in a local pen shop and do you find that the placement of the clip is a little awkward. Yeah, that's the, the most up I mentioned this last week, but it's like the most upsetting and kind of biggest offender for me because the clip is so pronounced that it has over time actually kind of made that pen unusable for me, which is a real shame. It's a beautiful pen and beautiful. Yeah, I think any pen with a molded grip section or that's going to force your fingers into a certain grip style. I don't think I would ever recommend that for a left hander without them using it first. I just see that as being a huge challenge. It's just not made that way. The only one I've seen, um, gosh, who is it? I'll have to find the link. It's a stability made a pencil where you could buy the mechanical pencil where you could buy the right handed grip version or the left handed grip version, which that's the only one I can recall off the top of my head that that has done that it with a molded grip area. Lami actually make left handed safaris. They make left handed nibs. Do they make actually left handed? Do they change the grip? I don't know. I assume so. Yeah. They make a left hand. I was going to say that goes back to again, if you're a left handed writer and you're an underwriter, like I don't know if the Stabilo or the Lami would adjust the grip to accommodate an overwriter versus an underwriter. Yeah, it does actually say left handed nib. Yeah. Yeah. From what I can see, I've only found an Amazon this thing. Let me see if I can find anything on that. So Ana, have you ever used a lefty nib, Ana? I have. And again, the lefty nibs are really designed to accommodate. They really only come in handy and this is something that I pretty firmly believe. If you're getting into the stub or the cursive style, you want to do that sort of calligraphic wide nib that for some lefties, especially if you're an underwriter, so you're writing below the line of your paper, a left handed chiseled angle. So it's basically they chiseled the angle of a calligraphy nib where it's a little bit lower on the left hand corner of the nib than the right hand. So it's kind of angled down, helps left handed writers recreate sort of that sort of calligraphic look a lot easier, but it will not work if you're an overwriter. Oh, I was going to say the same thing with like a flexible nib. If you're overwriting and pushing the pen, you're not going to get any of that line variation you really need to write underwriting to get the line variation of those flexible nibs. Yeah. I didn't think about that. Now, have you had any issues with like a standard stub or italic nib? Do you use those? Do you prefer them? Do you have trouble with them? I have the depending on how wide they are, I try to stay in that sort of 1.1 millimeter and smaller area with a stub. And I'm pretty good with those and I can, some of them I can actually use, depending on how good the flow is, I can actually use as an overwriter. My favorite is a vintage Esterbrook, which is their fine stub. And it's about, I would guess it's probably about a 0.6 or 0.8 millimeter. It's much narrower than sort of what people think of as that 1.1 millimeter stub. That's my, and I like that sold me on stubs. I was like, I'm in. I love me. Yeah. That's, that's kind of the range that I like to like sub sub 1 millimeter stubs. I can write with those all day long just with my normal writing. I love, love that. I'm going to get, there will be more of those in, in my future for sure. But Mike, you just, Mike, you just bought your first stub nib. Was it, do you buy a Twisbee Mini with the stub or am I confusing something? No, no, it was a Twisbee Mini that I got with the 1.1, I can't remember stubs. 1.1 or 1.5, I think it was the 1.1, I think, I think it was the smaller of the two. So are you still using it, enjoying it? That's working well with your handwriting style? It's pen, it's my, it's my daily pen now. Dang. That's awesome. Um, 1.1. Okay. So I didn't have to go too far too, too soon. The thing that I find the most interesting with the stub nib is how I can either use it like a normal pen or I can make it like stub. I don't really know how, how you would say it, like I can either use it and it will just look like a regular fountain pen for me or I can just angle the nib and then I can start getting the thicker lines which I tend to just do more out of fun than anything else. Like, sometimes I'll be like, oh, I'll just turn it and, or it just because it feels smoother or whatever, but because I'm, guess I'm not using a stub nib for what is intended to be for, I don't tend to notice that I can't use it properly, if that makes sense. I just find it to be an excellent writing experience. Um, so it works pretty well for me. And I think that, you know, there might be a bit of the fact that I'm finding that Twisby's writing instruments are of equality and like any other, um, is, is maybe part of the reason why I have pretty good luck with it. Maybe if I use something else, it wouldn't be so much. But like, because for example, I own a fine Twisby nib, it's the only fine nib I've been able to use. Ah, that's right. That's interesting. Is that, that on the, the ROC one, is that what it was or was it something else? No, it was on the ROC. Okay. And you still, and you're still enjoying like that, that fine of a nib. Yeah, I haven't used that since I got the mini, um, but yeah. But it works for you as a, as a lefty that the Twisby F nibs are no, no issue. None. Okay. That's great. That's interesting because when I got my Twisby mini, I got it with a fine nib on it. And it was, and I had had a, um, a five, a diamond 540 with an extra fine. And I thought, well, I'll try the fine nib. And it was, um, too broad for me, just for daily writing and, you know, again, I like my nibs on the finer side. So I actually, um, ordered an extra, extra fine nib, swapped it out. And so now I have a fine nib laying around that fits on a mini. Are you interested? Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't mean I would love it. Yes. So you can switch it out on your, your mini with your 1.1. That would be amazing. Thank you. No problem. Wait, wait, wait. We might have a hitch in that, in that plan, the minis take a smaller nib size. It was for a mini. Oh, it was for a mini. Okay. I thought you said it was for a 540. My fault. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Cool. That's awesome. Intercontinental trade agreement. Oh, we're not, is this Star Wars now, is that where we are? We're smuggling nibs. Cool. That's awesome. Well, I know, I guess keeping it on, on, on the fountain pen topic here, let's talk about inks real quick, because I know Mike and I have talked about this before and even for right-handers and fountain pens inks are a huge challenge. Um, you know, the dry time. If you're using a nice paper, nice, smooth, non-absorbent paper like erodia, you're talking a lot of these inks. You're talking 30 second dry times, just, there's no two ways about it. There's no getting around it. I, I say it doesn't phase me, you know, I mean, of course there, there's a little bit of hesitancy for something that dries extremely long, but, you know, I, it, if I, there's an ink I enjoy and it happens to have a long dry time, that's not going to turn me off for it. It's a rough tander. That's an entirely different story, right? Yes, it can be. And it does have a lot to do with what kind of paper you plan on using and how wide the nib on the pen is, obviously a 1.1 stub is going to put on a, put down a lot more ink, you know, on your paper, which right-handed people deal with as well, um, you know, so it's, you really have to kind of start thinking about tailoring the inks that you use with that may be more with the nib than maybe the pen. So I mean, the one that is kind of always recommended to left-handed writers is the noodler's Bernanke inks, which were just the, there's a Bernanke blue and a Bernanke black that are specifically designed to drive very, very quickly. So if that's, if that is an issue, if you're an overwriter and you want something to use in your office, that you can just write and write and not worry about whether or not you're going to end up walking to your next meeting with the palm of your hand all blue, I would say, use Bernanke inks. But a lot of the other inks, you know, especially the big brands, um, like, you know, the Parker inks, um, you know, those sort of standard blues and blacks do tend to dry a lot faster. It's when you get into the really, um, sort of niche colors. Um, I'm discovering strangely enough, a lot of pinks take a long time to dry in reds. Um, those are the ones I did a test with, um, I found, uh, statler, um, cartridges at my local office supply store and I tested all of the colors and they were all packaged together. There were five colors and, um, the pink in that set was much more liquidy and took much longer to dry than the, there was a brown and a green and a red and those all dried much quicker. So even within the same line, like from the same manufacturer, there's, I think, um, fluctuations in how long it takes the inks to dry. Wow. That's pretty interesting. I hadn't thought about that too much except, you know, if I've done, you know, like a bottle test, I understand that, you know, like if I'm doing a one type of nude lures compared to a different type there, you know, they're just made, might be manufactured completely differently, but if I'm using the same, you know, like standard product line, I would think it would be reasonably close, but that, um, it sounds like it was a pretty far off dry time. Yeah. I haven't found any real logic to it, but I do have noticed like pinks and sometimes oranges tend to take a little bit longer to dry. And I think maybe that's because there's so much pigment in the colors to make them really bright. Yeah. Maybe so. I'm up to go now. You got me interested now. I'm up to go. Check that out. Mike, Mike, did you ever use those Bernanke samples that you got? Did you ever test that out? So I was going to, um, and then the problem that I had was there's not enough ink in test bottles that I have for the Twisby, uh, system. So it was like the piston system to bring the ink in. Yep. So we know the answer to that, right, Anna? So, yeah. What is the answer? By a whole bottle, get a syringe, but you can't really syringe, um, one of the Twisby minis without totally disassembling it. Nope. I do it. I do it for all my ink tests. I use a Twisby mini 1.5 millimeter stub. I twist it out from the, from the middle, uh, dump the, dump the ink out, yep, dump the ink back out, clean it out, clean out the nib, get the syringe and pop it back right in the, right back in the hole. Brilliant. We'll leave your answer syringe. I still feel strange about trying to find and buy a syringe, though, like someone, someone told me on Twitter or app.net the other day, you know, about, you know, tracking all of my pin buying habits. I said, I guess I just stopped posting my syringe pictures. Yeah. It's just kind of a creepy, I don't know where I would find one. And then how you go about buying one without looking shady. First off, the syringe that, that most people use for filling ink is a very large gauge. It's not like, I could never prick myself with this. It's like a straw. Right. Yeah. It's flat. It's flat and a large gauge. It's not really injectable, but you try a drugstore. I was also going to say if you place orders with gooey pens, I believe they sell them and they could include it in your order, which might look a little less dodgy. Oh, yeah. If I could buy one from a pen supply store, then that's what I would do. That's where I get mine from. Gooey. Yeah. Try that. Yeah. I don't know if cult pens might, they carry such a wide stock, it's possible they might have it. I don't know if they've done any of that kind of kit cleaning type of stuff. Yeah. I'll take a look. But yeah, you can find it from some of the pen vendors. You just got to look a little bit, but gooey, definitely that's where I got my last ones from. Great. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. So that's... I find that the... Definitely try out those Bernanke inks. And once you get the syringe, I think that might be a game changer for you. I don't know. So I found the pilot to Roshi Zuku to be very accommodating of me. That's true. The couple of colors that I have used have had very good dry times, definitely on the dryer, dry and quicker than many inks. Yeah. I haven't used a ton of the pilot of Roshi Zuku. I have the Bamboo Forest, I can't remember the proper name. It's lime green, of course. It does dry a little bit slower, but I tend to think that when I get outside of the range of black, blue, blue, black, maybe a dark green, then I think some of those inks do take a little bit longer to dry, but not terrible. I have a sample of... I had a statler cartridge of a purple ink that I think I found at work that I used when I was testing the Corvara Sabana that I'm using for my pen test now. I mean, that ain't never dried, ever. I could probably... It's been three weeks. I could probably still smear it around, so I immediately threw that cartridge away, and I'm like, "No, not using that anymore." I think that you're probably right, I know, about the pigment, but if anybody knows why different colors take different dry times, like in a complaint or something, I would be very interested to see that. So I'd never thought of that before, ever, that the color would define the dry time. Yep, that's very interesting. I would like to hear more about that if anyone wants to send us any info on that. Now, one thing I want to add in to get you guys, and I don't want to put you on the spot, but do you have any other favorites that you would recommend to left-handed users? Have you found a particular... It could be anything. You don't have to be a fountain pen or ink, but as a lefty, recommending something to a lefty, is there anything that is your go-to thing to recommend or that you just love using, that you know is always going to be pretty good for a lefty? Obviously, you can't cover everything, but are there any items on that you really recommend to really lean on as a lefty for other lefties? When I discovered exacto knives, like the actual craft knives, instead of using scissors, I became much more adept. So a cutting mat and an exacto for a lefty is a great way to be a little more precise with your cutting if you're awkward with scissors. That's the big one for me. When I went to art school and they handed me an exacto blade and a cutting mat, I'm like, where have you been all my life? That is awesome. What about you, Mike, do you have anything, Mike, that your go-to lefty thing that you know is always going to work or something that surprised you even? All I have to say really, I don't actually have any specific thing. Try to write on a whiteboard as least as possible in your life. Absolutely. I second that. Because you might as well, I feel like sometimes I might as well just take a pen and put it on the end of a stick and then just try and use it that way because it feels like if I am standing anywhere near the board, I will rub it off. Or look really, really awkward and your handwriting will be worse than it's ever been. I basically hold it by the end of the pen and try it that way. It's not good. And there is no fix for that, like it just doesn't exist. Parents, if your kids are left-handed and they complain about having to go in front of the class to do problems, have sympathy. This was the biggest for me when I was a kid that was worse because we had chalkboards. So I would just, again, just like a whiteboard, just basically be erasing off everything while trying to write. Not to mention that the kids in the back are laughing because you're trying to do the over-writing on the chalk, yeah, just have sympathy for your kids. It was embarrassing. That's crazy. That sounds like a big business idea if someone can nail that. I don't know if it's possible. No. Yeah. Well, I've learned a lot on this episode. I was expecting it to be contentious and the righties and the lefties were going to go after each other. But you guys taught me a lot today and I hope everyone else learned a lot. And Anna's even put together some other cool links, not all left-handers are bad people. She has a whole left-handed leaders of the world link she found that there's some interesting people on there. Now, being right-handed, this looks like a list of people that would grant Edward Snowden amnesty, but I'm just saying that as a right-hander. Who all is on this left-handed leaders list? Well, it's something that I discovered that someone mentioned to me years ago and the last of the last, I think it's the last five presidents of the United States, like four of them were left-handed, including Obama, at least one of the Bush, one of the Bush's. Clinton. What? Yeah. And I'm trying to think. And there's some theories behind the fact that Ronald Reagan may have been left-handed, that was taught to write right-handed, because I guess maybe he played a sport left-handed. So yeah, there's been a lot of left-handed American presidents, and I was very impressed that Prince William is also left-handed. And also our current prime minister, David Cameron. Yep. Although that is not a redeeming feature of him, because he basically has not. I like to watch television and spot the left-handed actors, because every once in a while they'll have to stop and write something, and I always notice when they're left-handed. No, that's true. Very cool. Very cool. So see, not all left-handers are bad people. I just wanted to get that out there. There's been some misinformation going around. You two are my two favorite left-handers. I will say that. Oh. Shucks. You'd say it to any left-handed? I would. I would. I'm a little left-handed, so I don't get to experience these things. My mom is left-handed, and neither of my brothers are. Wow. I would throw that out there, because she said about being related. Yeah. Anna, do you have any close relations that are? Interestingly enough, on my in-laws side of the family, when we sit down for dinner, it's half and half. The lefties sit on one side of the table, and the righties sit on the other. We really do my sister and brother-in-law are both left-handed. I'm left-handed. My father-in-law is left-handed, so I married into the right family. My sister-in-law was very upset when she discovered that her son was going to be right-handed. She's like, "How is that possible? We're both left-handed." Yeah. And I think in my close family, I think there's zero that I can think of off top of my head. Definitely in my very close family, there's not a single left-hander. So it's good to experience it through your hand, and how the pens work, and inks are tough, and paper is brutal. I don't envy you. I don't envy you. It's definitely some considerations you have to make. Three-ring notebooks are a bad thing, three-ring writers don't like those at all. What about the Japanese? I want to like them, but no. What about Japanese versions? Have you ever thought about that? That just hit me when you're talking about them. I have tried. I mean, a lot of people have said, "Just flip them over and just always use the backside of the paper." But if you're working on something like sticking in additional insert pages that people have given you and stuff, then the writing is unwanted of the paper and then the other. I've never understood ringed binders, like I've never understood why anybody would want to use them, because no matter who you are, it's not comfortable 50% of the time. I've never got it. I've never been able to really use ring notebooks, like binders or notebooks. I've always found it very strange. Spiral bound, yeah. It's also the same thing. I guess the advantage there is that you can at least fold it over so that it's not quite as bad. Maybe that's why field notes are so popular. They're comfortable for lefties and righties. There you go. I'm all skinned too. Any of the hardback or books that lay flat? Cool. Well, guys and gals, I think that's a wrap for this episode. I think it was awesome. Like I said, I learned a lot, so I hope everyone else did. It's a great topic, and it's one that comes up constantly, so I'm glad we could get some things down, and we'll probably revisit, we'll probably have some questions and correct reactions, or some recommendations from other lefties out there, so definitely get in touch with us. Mike, you have all the details? Oh, you can be sure that I do. You can get in touch with Brad on Twitter, and he is @doudyism, D-O-W-D-Y-I-S-M. I am Imike, I-M-Y-K-E, and Anna is @well, W-E-L-O-A-P-P-T-D-E-S-K, well, @desk. And Brad also writes panatic.com, and Anna writes @wellappointeddesk.com. All right, well, thank you so much, Anna, for coming back. I'm glad we didn't scare you off the first time. Thank you for having me. We didn't scare you off the first time. No, you did not. All right, good. Well, we're definitely going to have you back again, because I love having you on. Me too. Cool, thank you. And we'll be back next week with the panatic. I believe it's just me and you next week. I, at this point, it is just me and you, this will be our first guest list episode in like four weeks or something. We've had three in a row, so... I'm scared. Yeah, I know. I'm not sure I'm ready for next week. So I've got a week to figure it out, don't I? Tell Brad what you want to hear us talk about. It's always a good thing. Yeah. Yep, always let me know. I'm always open to topics, so... And they can be... Give you much. You know, right? The panatic@gmail.com. Yup. Excellent stuff. So we're back next week. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you to Anna for joining us. And thank you, Brad, as always. We'll be back next week. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye!
