Hello and welcome to episode 61 of the Panatic podcast on Fire by Five, a weekly show where we discuss pens, paper and the analog tools that we love so dearly and I'm going to introduce my friend who's quite simply the master at what he does, no jokes this week, Brad Downey. Alright, thank you very much, I appreciate that, you know, master of my domain, we'll go with that. You can take that. We have a special guest joining us again today, we've got back-to-back interviews with back-to-back Dan's, I'd like to welcome Dan Bishop from Cara's Customs, how's it going Dan? It's pretty good, glad to be back. Yeah, welcome back to the show buddy. I think we're setting the podcast record for most amount of Dan's appearances on the show. Yeah, welcome to Danland, I guess. Well good, we're glad to have you, you've got a big new Kickstarter project we wanted to get you on to talk about and I think the last time we had you and we alluded to some of the things that have come to fruition now but before we get into the retract, which is the awesome new retractable pen that you guys have created at Cara's Customs. We got a couple follow-up topics that Mike and I need to get into and then we'll jump into it, how's that sound? Sounds good to me. All right, so Mike, you finally, you know, about a month ago or so we were talking about the retro 51 vintage surf and, you know, how we'd all, several of us had gotten a bunch of listeners, you know, myself had gotten one and you had ordered one as well but you had a little issue getting yours in hand, I want you to relive that story, I know you do. So, you know, a running gag on the show I think has been my issues with the customs office here and I don't, I honestly don't really know what it is that triggers an item at customs, you know, some people say that it's due to the amount, some people say it depends on what is written on the actual packaging, I've had things from the same company, same shipping methods, some get picked, something like that, I don't really know what the, you know, I don't really know what the magic is or not but the retro 51 surf and the ace got caught in customs. Much to my upset and I basically created a siege on the customs office here and finally I have received the retro 51, it's called the vintage surf, isn't it? Yeah, vintage surf, vintage surf. So what do you think, now that you finally sprung it with the, you know, way more money than you had anticipated to get this pin in your hand, so what do you think about it? I don't know if you're jaded now that it was such a hassle to get. So it does, it does like overshadow the experience a little bit, like this was so expensive, like, so what do we work out, it came to about like 80, what's around, 80 dollars? To get, to get it all in total, I, to get both pens cost me about $120, get away, somewhere between 100 and 120 and everybody knows my love for this brand. But they don't make pens that are that expensive. Yeah, right. That's, that's why, that's why we like them so much, right? That's not the point. I paid 50 bucks a pop for these, which is like two to three times the price of them. But, you know, I mean, there is no denying that, that the, the retro 51. So if you haven't reviewed this, yeah, have you? I haven't, I haven't, you know, the, the more I work on, like my top five lists, the more I realize how many pens I have not reviewed. So yeah, I need to get a review done on that too. I mean, it's, it's, it's as beautiful as I expected, like, you know, there's no way to, to doubt that like what I was wondering before I, before I received it, if it was going to be like a sticker, but, or whatever, but this is actual made of wood, you know, and, and I mean, it's not entirely wood, but there's, you know, there's another wooden version, the bamboo edition, which I really love as well, and yeah, I'm really, really happy with it. I'm quite a nice touch and this is their number, they were individually numbered. Yeah. Yeah. So I've got number 91 etched into the top of mine. Nice. And they made a hundred, right? 500. 500. 500. Yeah. So Dan, Dan, you actually, you know, being the machine pin master, you actually have one of these as well. Right. And it's number 66. Nice number. Yeah. Yeah. That's real good. Yeah. Mine's up in the three, three something. Mine's just some like random, like three 68 or three 49, something like that. Yeah. I like y'all's numbers better. Yeah. So what do you, what do you think about a pin like this, Dan, that's, it's, it's a little bit different than, you know, what's your, what's your manufacturing or what you've been using there? Um, it's, it's pretty fantastic. In fact, you know, Mike, Mike, the dude, Dudek and I went to, cause he's local. We went to a, our local pen shop, Scottsdale Pen and the, he had one and I had planned on picking one up a, any retro 51, but he had one of the serfs and we both kind of looked at each other. And I saw that it was number 66 and I have a 1966 Volkswagen Beetle that I drive. So I had to have it. Yeah. That was fate. It was fate. No, but it's, it's really nice. Um, I didn't know what to expect cause I'd, I'd never had a retro 51 before, but the walnut on the pen is, is really, really nice. And, uh, the, the refill that they use is, is, is beautiful and I'm, I'm really happy with it. Yeah. I think, I think I'm not, I don't have as many or as, uh, the huge variety as Mike does, but, um, I think this is easily, easily my favorite one so far, um, it's, it's extremely well done. And it's, it's just cool. It's just a cool pen and, um, they, they did a good job on that. So yeah. Cool. I really like the styling of it. I mean, it's, it's a really classy pen. I, I think it's very, it's, it's beautiful in its own way. Like I really like the, um, the, they, they have a top on each of the pens. So on the top, they have like a little circular disc and usually they're plastic and they, they have a color underneath. But on this one, they, it's all, um, I assume it's aluminum, um, aluminium as I would typically say, um, some metal, I actually don't know what the metal is, but it's the metal, there's like a metal disc instead of a plastic disc, which I thought was a really nice touch as well. It's got a real great weight to it because the, the, the metal gives it a nice balance, but the wood keeps it light. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. As opposed to the other ones, which is slightly heavier. Well, no, what, this was my first retro 51 and I was excited because I was hoping you would come in one of the aluminum tubes, but it came in one of the cardboard tubes. Yeah. I prefer the cardboard tube. And I think that this is new packaging because the ace came in a cardboard tube as well. Yeah. I think they've switched up a bunch of the packaging. I think Mary Collis was talking about that. So when she, she ordered something else recently and it didn't come at the, yeah, I think she was disappointed it didn't come in the aluminum package or somewhat, someone was and I think they're just, I think they're switching up the packaging nowadays or might have been on a, from a bullet pointed desk, what someone was, you know, looking forward to, you know, the, the cool tube and the pop sound that it makes and yeah, but the last snapper I bought and the retro 51 surf, I bought both came, yeah, and the cardboard tube, which is fine. I mean, I don't have a super problem with that. I mean, they, they're still keeping the same, you know, the retro style branding, but yeah, it doesn't come in those cool aluminum tubes anymore, but I bet you could still find some. I like how they have the foam in the sort of take the top off. It's just like presented there. And that wasn't the case before. I mean, they were kind of in like a, like a felt sleeve, which was just inside the, like the metal tube. I think, I mean, naturally, I have too many of those tubes. So I was happy to have some new packaging. Yeah. It's basically like if you, if you pop the cardboard tube now, it's almost like a stand, it's almost like a pin, individual pin stand. It stands up vertically in the bottom, bottom foam section and just kind of, kind of stands up and you could display it like that if you were so inclined, but yeah, cool. What else, what else you got going on, Mr. Hurley? I know you, we talked recently about, uh, you wanted to make some, some changes to your, to your field notes repertoire. So what do you got going on? So the last week, um, I've been carrying, um, a field notes dark sky and the space pen around with me, um, on a daily basis, um, and I've kind of, I've filled up a good chunk of, of a book already, like, but I've found that what I'm putting in here is exactly the type of thing that I feel should be going in, um, a field notes book. So like I've got, um, I've written down some definitions for success. I'm literally going through what this is now, but I've gotten here. I've got a little drawing that I did, um, just random doodling, um, an outline of a blog post, um, a new business idea, some notes for a business idea I'm thinking about, um, a to-do list for that business idea, um, notes from a telephone call that I made, um, the network, the monthly network download numbers, um, for me to track our sponsorships with, um, some technical stuff about recordings, I need to try and change some of our recording stuff, some, uh, purchase order numbers for work, um, and, uh, wireframe of an email. Um, and basically, I've also got my Wi-Fi password in here because I had to restore my phone. Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. And this feels like I've got, finally using a field notes for what it's kind of intended to do. They have a great, like, motto, um, like, or slogan, and I'll probably butcher this, but it's, I'm not writing it down to remember it later, I'm writing it down to remember it now. Mm-hmm. Um, and that always spoke to me because I've, I take notes a lot, um, especially for work, but I, I very rarely refer back to the notes because I find that if I write something down, I'm wanting client to remember it, or it, it just helps me, um, to think about things in a deeper way if I'm able to take notes at the same time. Um, so the types, types of things that I'm taking notes in field notes for, uh, most of the time, you know, things that I don't need to keep forever, but I'm enjoying having it in my pocket and carrying around a book, it gives a book a totally different character. Like, the corner's afraid, like, it's battered, um, you know, because I'm just taking it in and out of my pocket all day, um, and it's just going around with me, and I'm finding that like, the warmth of it being there as well is like sort of just softening the book. It's very strange. Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, none of my field notes have looked like this before, they've always been pristine, because they've even been in the box, only been on my desk, they've been, but no, I'm, I'm, I think that the space pen is the right choice in our honesty. So it's very simple, it's very light and it's very small, and you actually don't even notice it being in my pocket. So where I appreciate all of the suggestions that people are sending in, and we've got a bunch of them, I didn't actually find that any were really, um, what I was looking for. So like, they ever didn't come with, um, uh, like, clips, or there wasn't easily, easily like, viable clips and edible clips onto them, or they were like too long, um, or too wide, and none of them really seemed to fit the purpose, like the space pen does in our honesty. So I'm really enjoying it, and I'm, I'm pleased because I'm, you know, I have a lot of notebooks here, um, so I should start using them. Yeah, and from what it sounds like, the, the contents are, and what you're using it for. That's exactly what it should be used for. And that sounds, I mean, almost verbatim of like what's in, what's in mind. And you know, just carrying it around, like you said, it, it makes it more personal. You know, in the, in the, the, the carry of it, you know, just the wear and, and, and, you know, how the, the, the patino on the notebook and then the, the contents are more personal when you were carrying it around, you know, more frequently getting those, you know, ideas at the time you have the ideas and, and putting them down and just, um, you know, there is some track of it, you know, there are some notes that I still take on my phone because I feel that they're best there, um, like, I'm, you know, I'm thinking about, um, writing something about how to take good interviews, like an interview 101. Right. And I don't really know where I put it, but you know, I feel like I've amassed some knowledge now. Um, so that's on my phone because that's like a, just, it just seems like the right place for it. And I have like people I want to interview on command space, um, stuff like, I, I've, there are some things that I feel need that are longer term, um, because like when that field notes books done, anything that's in that book won't be with me every day anymore. And that they're the sort of things that I want to have around all the time in their, you know, in their, their original form. Right. Yeah. A lot of my stuff goes in the field notes first. And then then some of the things like you're talking about, um, that I need some more permanence. I'll, I'll transfer, you know, digitally into my phone or, or somewhere else. Yeah. So like one thing that I've been doing, um, so sometimes I, you know, I will take like some of the businessy stuff I've gotten there. I will take out and I'll write that into something, um, at some point. But like with some stuff, I just take a picture of the note. Yeah. I've done that too. I'm not for sure. I needed those numbers, the number, like the download numbers to put into the spreadsheet that I keep. Um, so I just took a picture of it. So I wouldn't in case I lost it or whatever. Yeah. Dandy, do you carry any paper around with you? Like if you're in the shop or going home or going, or going out, do you, do you carry anything you, or you, uh, as, as, uh, as crazy as us? Um, yes and no, at the shop, uh, coming from, um, school and stuff, we did a lot of sketching and, and no writing on loose paper, just blank, like, copy paper. So at work, my desk is, uh, in a, in a sort of pile of that, some of it's folded in half for convenience sake, but I have a, a moleskin and a, uh, oh, I can't remember the name of it. It's a spiral bound, uh, sketchbook that I carry. I don't, I don't carry any lined, um, notebooks because most of the time, uh, I'll be doodling or if I do write, I, I don't feel like I need the lines. So, um, but the field notes, I have a few of them and I feel very constrained to write within the, the height of the grid in the one that I have. And so it's great for, I have a list for my books, but I can actually have stuff that I want to fix or repair or maintain on it and, um, it works great for that because I can take a, you know, like a high tech C or something and I can write out very, very small and very neat and then check things off the list, which makes me feel good, but, uh, otherwise I, I just carry, uh, uh, uh, some type of sketchbook usually. Okay, that's cool. Cool. Well, um, I think, uh, I think it's time for us to get into the, the retract and the everything around that. Do you want to, um, do you want to do our sponsor first mic or do you want to go into the retract? No, let's, let's, this is a nice, um, break point. Okay. Yeah, let's do that. And then we'll, uh, we'll get down to brass tacks. So I'll take a quick moment to thanks Squarespace.com and give you everything that you need to make an amazing website, Squarespace is a fully hosted, completely managed environment that allows you to create, maintain, build a beautiful website blog portfolio. Even maybe you want to build a site for your business, create an online store. You can do that with Squarespace too. With Squarespace, you get some fantastic features like beautiful themes and drag and drop page building system allows you to create custom layouts for your pages in seconds. They have great structure. They have perfectly clean code, it's all optimized for SEO. So whatever you say is going to show up as high as it possibly can in Google, which is very important for people finding your site. And they have everything integrated design domains hosting support. 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If you sign up for a year, not only will you get the custom domain name, you'll get 20% off, sign up for two, you'll get the domain name and 25% off those monthly prices, go to squarespace.com to sign up for a free trial and help support the show. Squarespace have been awesome in supporting us for such a long time. And if you enjoy the show, you should go and check them out. Maybe you need a site, you have a family member or a friend that needs a website, Squarespace can help them out. And Brad, we have a new offer code for the show. All right. That's right. It's a new month. But it's a brand new code. Oh, cool. So go check out Squarespace, everything you need to make an amazing website. All right. Thank you, Squarespace. All right. Dan, for those who are new to the show, since, you know, I guess it's been several months since we've talked to you before and now we're on five by five and our listenerships growing and things like that. So let's, why don't you talk a little bit about you, what you do, what Keras custom does, just kind of give the listeners a little bit of background on, you know, everything that you guys are doing and kind of how these projects came to be if you don't mind. Sure. Like I mentioned previously, I'm a designer. I started working at a machine shop out of curiosity slash necessity when I became unemployed and one thing led to another and I kept throwing ideas at the, at the owner and now I pretty much just designed stuff for us and for customers. So I'm doing what I was trained to do, but with a little twist, I basically make stuff out of metal at the shops. So we do everything, we started out with some, some iPhone cases and we've been on a run of pens because people seem to really, really like them actually to the point where we're, we're talking about, you know, if that's going to be what we're known, known for primarily in the market place rather than anything else we do. So that's about it, I don't know. This whole pin, this whole pin aspect, and we've talked about it before and we've talked about, you know, the owner Bill Kerris that, you know, this is just, does it still seem odd to this day? Because this is, this is the third pin project you've guys done. The first one was the render K, which was, it's still my, still my favorite, you know, it fit the height, it was basically, it was generally based around the high-tech sea refill, although there's, there's, you know, you can get other refills in there, but it's, it's really, you know, it was made around that originally and that did extremely well. I mean, I think probably, you know, exceeded any expectations you guys have and, yeah, not to put words in your mouth, but I imagine it was kind of a shock to you guys. No, it was our original goal because on Kickstarter you set a goal in, you know, a time period. So we, we had a goal of $2,500 and our time period was 30 days. And we, we blew through that 2,500 in the first 24 hours and we were, I figured we were going to be at least, you know, 15 to 30,000, Bill didn't tell me till later, but he said, no, I figured we'd do like 3 grand or something, but it ended up, it ended up at like 69,000. Which is, seems insane, everyone's like, oh man, you guys got rich off pens, but then the excitement wears off when you're, when you think, oh wait, I need to make, I think it was like 1,100 and some change, like we had to make 1,100 pens. And so our little shops just churning out pens, you know, for weeks on end and it was fun. We got to take videos and pictures of the process and show everybody along the way. And it was interesting because when we came up with our second pen, the bolt. You can comment, if you, on Kickstarter they can comment and ask questions. On the render K, there was just tons and tons of questions and comments. And then when we did the bolt, it was like crickets, it's just, it's almost like they all went, oh, okay, cool, they got another project, here's my money and we'll just wait. Yeah, I think, I think people don't have the buyer's fear when they, when they see that you've done it before. Right. You know, you, you, they can look at your previous projects and think, oh, this, this guy made a pen before. Like I'm waiting on a Kickstarter reward of a pen that I backed a while ago by a British company. Oh, I know which one you're talking about. It's called Make Your Mark, the pen with a twist by a Johto. Mm. Is that the one that got the straight, knurled end and chromer brass body? I think so, yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful, beautiful pen. Great packaging too. Yeah, but it, it was like six months ago. So the funding period end is on January 27th and I think that they're getting ready to start shipping in a couple of weeks, but they were meant to ship months ago. But this is, because this is their first one and they had a very successful Kickstarter as well. They've 598 of them. It's, well, it's, it's Kickstarter is interesting because coming from a design and, you know, now a manufacturing background, if I were to go work for a big company, stuff doesn't get produced as quickly as people expect it to on Kickstarter because they give their money up front. And if you over fund, it makes it even, you know, it delays the time, the timetable out even further. So when people, you know, they say, oh man, you have all this, all this extra money or you have this project, they, they assume that it's just going to go, go, go. We have the luxury of making our own product. So if there's a problem or, you know, we can tweak it on our end, but if you're having somebody else manufacture it and there's a problem and oh, it's, it becomes just an exponential nightmare for these, these companies. So that's been their problem and in fairness, they have, they have literally sent any one email a week the whole time, like they've been really, really like, they just tell them the whole story and you can, you can, I think you, to know, you can't view the, the updates. Can you? I think the kickstarter back is only. And that, that confuses me because we, we try to do all of them unless it's something that's like an exclusive, like a coupon code or something for our backers, we try to be really open about it. And some projects do that and some don't. And I think it would behoove them if they wanted to do a future project that outsiders can look and see them and see that how open they are being. I think it would be good for them in the long run. I'm just curious of why they, they have done that. So they've got 32 updates in total. So they sent like an email a week and the whole time they've been saying, right, this was what happened, this is, this, this went wrong and then we went and did this and then this went wrong. And so they've been really open with it. But it is, I mean, and you know, I have simple people because, you know, they're, they're trying hard and, you know, I know people like you guys that make this stuff, but you're right. I think the difference is because you pay upfront. If I paid when I received it, I think I would feel different, but I gave these guys like 60 pounds, you know, $100 or so at the end of January. And I haven't got anything yet. And again, you know, I know obviously, obviously it needs to be made, but that's, as you said, it's typically not how you do things like in commerce as a, as a consumer. Right. And that gives, and that must give for you, like bringing back to you guys that must put an additional level of pressure and stress on you when you're building something like this. Yes. It is because the way the Kickstarter model works, when you're funding ends, they basically dump all the money minus the, their take into your account. And then suddenly the weight of all those backers is all on your shoulders. There's just there to, to basically host the, the updates and stuff you're locked out of your original profile, or not profile, but like the project page, you can post updates, but that's it. And so kick starters, I've seen there's been some ugly things out of it, but yeah. If you're successful, it's great. If you're bad, it's, you're out there for the whole world to see. But it could be difficult if you didn't have a lot of planning done in the first place. So now we come to the retract, which is your most recent, most recent project. It was, it was put on Kickstarter, Kickstarter eight days ago, with a goal of seven and a half thousand dollars. Yes. Now you knew you were going to meet that. Right. I'm going to say that right. You, you don't have to say anything, but any, but you met your goal within an hour. Right. Yes. And you are currently at 57,786 dollars at time of recording. Bloody congratulations to you. Thank you. That is very much. Incredible. I was, I was when you, because you know, I knew that you guys were launching and I had the page up and I was just watching the money just tick up and I was like, this is incredible. I went away for a couple of hours. Oh my God. They're like $15,000. Yeah. I was like, I was hitting the search bar like the morning, the morning I knew it was going to be released. I was like refreshing. All right. Is it live yet? Is it live yet? Because you know, my schedule is weird. So I'm, I'm like trying to go to bed and I'm like, all right, come on, Dan, do this thing so I can put in my pledge and get in on this and, and whatever and it's like, oh, it wasn't coming. So I finally just went to bed. Then I woke up and it was already like blown through the roof and you know, like all the early backers are gone and everything and I was like, wow, they, yeah, it, it got off to a roaring start. Yeah, if we always hoped, well, here's, we've had two other projects on Kickstarter that were not pen related and they did put it mildly horrible. And it just seems that the Kickstarter crowd, I mean, there's certain patterns and pen seem to be one of those things that granted if it's just not completely terrible, it's going to do fairly well. And we've been lucky enough to have our third pen project now. And as of probably the end of today, we will have bypassed the goal that we, or the total that we did on the bolt. And within a week or so, I mean, if it continues the way it is, we will surpass the render key. This will be our, hopefully our best project yet. I would be very surprised if that wasn't the case because what did the render came make? Uh, 69. And you're at 57 and you've got 37 days left to go, so it never really stops now. Let's not, let's hope not. So where does it come from? Where does, where do all these backers come from? Well, in, in my opinion, they're residuals from the first two projects and maybe people that they know, you know, office buddies, whoever say, hey, this, these guys have another project. Remember this cool pen? And, and it's, it's the more mainstream of all of our pens so far. Everybody knows what a click pen is. Everybody's got a cheap, big click or maybe even a Parker Jotter or something lying around. But not everyone wants a screw top pen. Not everybody wants a bolt action pen. But a click pen, people, people, it can identify with that. So it's the more user friendly, uh, it's the most, I don't know, it's just the common guy can see that and go, hey, that's cool. Yeah. And I think it's the most accessible out of the, out of the three. I mean, it can reach the most people just from ease of use and, and familiarity and things like that. Right. Looking for accessible, no, but, um, and here, here's the things with the bolt, um, uh, we made it so it would take the Parker, uh, size to refill, you know, the international G2. Now people would ask us about the specific refill, the pilot G2, which isn't the same thing obviously, but, and so we designed this pen to kind of cater towards that because our first pen worked with the pilot high taxi, but also worked with the, with the Parker, the second one worked with the Parker, but with, you know, a longer front barrel, we'll work with the pilot G2. This one, because the pilot G2, uh, is the most sold pen in, in, I think in the United States, if not, you know, larger, we decided to go with that because the click pen is the most common type pen and, uh, the G2 is the most common, uh, refill in the United States. So that combination, um, I think is what we, we, we, we hoped would drive this campaign and so far, I think it's worked pretty well. So let's, let's, I'm going to talk about the, uh, the, the mechanics of it because that's what we talked about, um, you know, the last time we had you on, we talked about the challenges in making different types of pens and, you know, where you, you know, where before, say, just taking the, the render K, essentially, that's a, that's a simple barrel. I mean, you just have to, you know, make the dimensions to, to fit the refill, but it's just a standard, standard barrel, conical type tip and, you know, threaded cap. Well, this has a lot more, this has a lot more mechanics going on to it, even compared to the bolt, which is just basically, I don't know how you would describe the mechanism, but it's just, it's almost just like a push, it's like a push and twist pen. There's not a lot, a lot of extra stuff going on now with a, with a retractable. That's, you know, that always, always thought that was like the hugest challenge just because of the additional moving parts and the, you know, putting, putting that all together to work right, it's got to be a, a pretty big challenge, how did y'all, how did y'all get around all that and come up with this design? Well, the bolt kind of arose out of, we wanted something that was like a click pen, because I knew about this, this mechanism before and I'm not going to reveal our sources, but it's a German company and if someone looks hard enough, they can find it, but they were turned out to be notoriously difficult to get a hold of. We tried to contact them and their emails or their contact page was broken and it was all in German and so we originally went with the bolt to kind of appease that market and when we finally were able to get a hold of somebody, we got our hands on this mechanism and we immediately knew that it was just fantastic. Like he said, it's, it's mechanical, but it's not like a standard click pen. It doesn't make any real clicking noises as you depress it, it has a, a machined track and uses a ball bearing to follow a groove inside of it so that it, it's, I don't know what's bizarre, when you put the spring tension on it, it, it follows that track and gives you the, the depressant and an undepressed position on the, on the knock. So it's really simple, but you take it apart and you look at it and it's very well made. It's nickel plated brass, has a nice waist weight to it and I don't think it'll ever wear out. That's fantastic. I think the most amazing part to me and I mean, it's not a shock coming from you guys. It looks fantastic. Like I didn't, you know, I was worried about it being like overly complex or, you know, just really, you know, not, I don't know, not fitting the aesthetic, right? But this is just completely spot on. I mean, it looks, it looks beautiful. I mean, Mike, Mike, you've got one, you've got one in your hands, right? You spoiled the surprise. I was good. I sent it to Mike, I'm going to interrupt it real quick, but I set one to, to Mike because I knew he'd come over to, to San Francisco and I knew the troubles he was having with his, his custom stuff. And so as soon as I found out he was going to be in the US, I found it immediately where he was going and I, he was the first person outside of our shop to own one, to have one in his hands. I didn't know that. Oh, wait. No, I lied. I lied. Mike Dudek beat you because he, he like literally is down the street. So he, you were the first person outside of the circle of trust as my boss puts it to, to have one. So my favorite thing about this pen is the way that you took the design, the, the beauty of the render K and have made something new out of it, because like if you took the top mechanism off, it would, it looks very much like a slimmer render K, right? Because you've got, it's called knurling. Knurling. Yeah. Yeah. But like the knurling, which is like that, that pattern, which is around the top and then the real heavy duty clip with the two like rivets, they would, what are they rivets? What are they? They're just socket head bolts. There you go. Two bolts in them. And I have the aluminium version pronounced correctly, of course. Yes. And I mean, as soon as I took this thing out of the packet, I was like, Oh my, look what they've done. And my buddy, Stephen Hackett, who was sharing a room, he was like, Steven, look at this. And he was like, that looks nice. And you've created a great product. I mean, it's weighted really well, which is something that's very important to me. It's not too large. I mean, the bolt was a bit too large for me, but it's, the bolt for me is more like a piece. You know, it's like a thing to own as opposed to something that I would want to use every day because the mechanism is really interesting and different. But this is a pen that I'm able to use like a lot, and I have been using it a lot at home. I've been, it's the pen that I've been reaching for quite frequently out of the pen holder that the dude made us. And what I really like and obviously this is something that's so difficult to explain. And you guys kind of mentioned it and you showed it in your great Kickstarter video, which people need to, need to see. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So if you don't, even if you don't back it, and I know you will once you see it, just go watch the video. It's killer. Y'all did an awesome job. Yeah. That, the video was actually made written and directed by the, my boss's brother-in-law, his name's Wes, Wes Ford. And he helped us put that together and it turned out awesome. He's the guy that tears off to the, oh, I won't ruin that part. He's the, he's the runner. We'll put it that way. He's the, he's the end. He's at the end. Okay. So my favorite thing about the pen aside from the looks, as I was going to say, is the mechanism itself is unlike any like knock mechanism I've used before. It has a very interesting feedback, which it gets me every time. Like so most, most knocks you can feel like a, um, a clunk mechanism inside the pen, right? Which is typically like the teeth moving around the plastic of the, uh, the refill. But obviously it would have been really difficult for you guys to make that because you wanted to have a wide range of refills they could take. And you have like the extension system that you include, right? Which allows people to like cut the, like plastic tubing that you give so they can use different refills. So it would have been probably been quite difficult. So you've obviously sourced out this other method, but it, it gives like a really, like, it's obviously silent, but it's a soft, interesting feedback. Like the feedback feels really natural. It's so difficult for me to like really explain it. And that's one of the, you just have to buy like it. Is it like, uh, like a cushioned? Yeah. It feels that the right way. Cushioned. Yeah. It's kind of mechanical mechanical, mechanical, mechanical cushion or something. Yeah. What, what are you using? I'm using the G2. Okay. Cause I think we, for all the reviewers, we threw a G2 refill in there. You should try it, uh, with, uh, that back plug and a, a parker because when you switch out the spring and the refill, the feel, in my opinion, it's different, but I almost prefer it. It feels smoother and cleaner, um, not that the other one's not good as well, but, um, I'm running a Schmidt easy flow in mine. And I love it. Yes. See, I used the Schmidt easy flow in the render K, um, and I've been thinking that I should change it. I actually really like the way that the G2 writes, um, and I always have done. I think that there is a reason that the G2 is the most popular pen in the United States. Cause it is actually a very, very competent gel pen. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Um, so I've been, it's been one of those things where like, because I had a refill, I've been like, no, I'm happy with this. Like this is good. Cause I forget that it's a G2, right? And I'm taken back to how good a refill that is, because I'm not, I'm not being a pen snob while I'm not wanting to use, oh, the plastic G2 reef. So it's like how people are like the reason that the, you know, there's so many, there's such a culture and I had to see is because the refill is great, but the actual pen, like packaging, select the, you know, the plastic case that the pen, the refill comes in typically isn't good. And that's why there's such a market for creating pens for that refills mean, Brad, and you've spoken to us about it too, Dan, and we spoke about it so many times. But the interesting thing about the G2 is it's, in my opinion, a superior writing experience. So I've been kind of using that a lot, but I will try that. I need to get the rule around. It's an experience because well, in the packaging we sent you that we included, I think it was a little black spacer, correct? Yes. Put that, put that in the end with the knock and then put your refill with the spring and you'll be fine. You won't have to make an adapter. Perfect. But I do. It's interesting. You mentioned refills. Now, because the mechanism has a very specific throw in it, we've found that some of the, quote, you know, pilot G2 compatible refills, they're slightly different in length. And if they're a little longer, it doesn't work quite right. So Mike Dudek, the dude over at Clicky Post, he's actually posted up a couple of things and he, about it, but you have to trim down. You take out that little plug at the end and cut it down, but he's been able to fit like an energyl, and I'm trying to think of the other ones, but quite a few of them. And people constantly email you on Kickstarter, "Will it take this refill? Will it take this refill?" And we have to tell them, "We're not quite sure." Because if the refill isn't manufactured to the same tolerance as the G2, then no. But the good news is with a couple of slight modifications, and it's not ideal, but people are packing all kinds of weird refills into them. Yes, and what other refills, have you tried any other refills, any specifics that have worked well, any that you just couldn't get around and couldn't get them to work, or anything like that? Let's see. The first run of pens, like I said, we sent these all out, and they're basically a prototype. And so I tried the Mont Blanc roller ball, and we were having what felt like some interference. So what I did was I took one of the front ends, and I put it into a mill, and we machined it down so we could see what was going on inside. I could cut away view. And we think that if we increase the diameter of the barrel bore, that we can accommodate for that. A lot of pens, it seems, are either like I would call a Pilot G2 compatible, or like a Parker size compatible. And so nearly everyone that we've tried that has been, especially a pilot product, or even some of the jet stream refill fit, for example, yes. And just a lot of these other refills. And so it's kind of exciting because your average, I don't know, I like to tinker. Obviously I own an old car, and I like to work with my hands. And so if I want to just drop in a G2 refill, I can do that. But I can go out and find a more exotic refill, and maybe with a razor blade in 30 seconds, I can put in something that nobody else has and have a different feel. I think that speaks to a lot of us too. We all have our favorites, and we all want to try to, we have a favorite refill and a favorite barrel, and we want to try to find a way to make them work together. And that's why we didn't, because I've seen hacks with duct tape and all kinds of weird stuff, and we didn't want that to happen. We include that length of tubing with all our pens. But on this one, it's kind of funny because if you unscrew the knock mechanism, it has this little, I don't know what you'd call it, like a finger or a piston that sticks out. And I've actually cut a couple refills too short. And so I just jam that over the end of that mechanism and trim it to length. And then it's great because I can use that refill until it wears out and then trim the next one to be the right length and just cut that little piece of plastic off. So it's like an adapter that you can use over and over again and customize to any refill you want. But it's not, like I said, it's not the most ideal way, but if somebody really wants to get into the nitty-gritty and do something weird, they can do it. Right, because you're never going to be able to make a pen that can fit everything. I mean, there are limits, you know, but so some of it does require a little bit of modification to get, you know, a specific refill, but I think going the basic G2 route or the basic Parker style route, I mean, you pretty much have to do that. And there's so many refills out there nowadays that are really high quality, you know, if you didn't like the standard G2 or a standard partner that you can easily, easily find something to fit in there without any modification and just go. So yeah, that's awesome. So while we've been talking, while you guys were talking then, I went and replaced the refill with an easy flow 900, 9,000 and it does feel really different. Yeah. And I see. What do you think? I really like it. I really like it. And I guess it's maybe because the spring that I'm using is tighter, maybe, I don't know, because you use like a smaller spring for the refill, right? Because they have the like the long, thin refill at the end so you can use a smaller spring so it will be tighter and give more bounce. Yeah. It's a slightly different spring pressure and it's also, it might have to do with just the way that the barrel interacts with the machining work on the inside of what the refill interacts with the machining on the barrel. Like I said, we're going to do a couple more tweaks, but the idea is to make everything feel like it was designed that way. And more or less it was. I picked two solid refills and designed to accommodate both and I think we've done a fairly decent job at it. I think you've done a great job. I know. And I can't wait to get mine. I'm backed on the aluminum version that way it'll match my render K, it'll match my bolt, I'll have the full set, full set of aluminum versions. So I hate to even ask this at the outset of the retract project because this is such an awesome pin, but what's next for you guys? I mean, do you have something that you've always dreamed of doing or something you wanted to do? Or do you have an itch that needs to be scratched that I don't want you to give away all the trade secrets, but knowing you and we talk a lot offline and through our daily lives, and I know how your brain works, there's always something going. So what's turning around in that dome of yours? Right, the hamsters are turning on the wheels. No, I actually have a short list of what to do next and it's kind of hard. I would like to eventually tackle a fountain pen, but I don't think so that's yeah, that's that's a that's a big thing, but you know that you shouldn't have said that. Why is that? Well, I mean, now everybody's going to want it. Hey, well, that works too. But I I'm kind of an information junkie and it's kind of the reason I the pen project even came up because I was, you know, in the first place the first render K was because I was trolling the internet for my just my information fix like I do every day and I was like, oh, yeah, I can I can do a pen like this. I can do a pen that takes a high-tech sea and I did my research and I've been looking into fountain pens and fountain pens are a tough nut to crack because there's no rhyme or reason or universality of nibs or or you know, I guess they call them flexes or nails if they're flexible or stiff. I mean, there's all these things, so it's like what's the what's the point seven, you know, version of a equivalent of a nib that, you know, everyone could tolerate if we make something. And so that's the nut that I'm trying to crack right now. But yeah, that's that's going to be down the road. I don't know. I have a couple of a couple other ideas and refills that I'd like to design a pen around because I would like to have a pen that takes a very specific refill so that people who love that refill can have a pen for that. And I don't know. I have a list of about five different projects and one of them is is also a pencil. Okay. Interesting. Um, they're like, Oh, that's great. No, see, the thing is like the for me and Brad, we feel that the pencil has been fixed. It's been solved and cannot be beaten is in the crew. Toga. Are you familiar with the crew? The crew. Toga. It's no uniball. You need to look this up because it's an incredible piece of engineering. So it's made by uniball. Mm hmm. Regular listeners will know about this. It's crew. It's crew. K U R U T O G A. Okay. And what this does is, you know, like if you're using a mechanical pencil, yes, and you're writing with it and the lead or the refill will wear down on one end because of the way you. Oh, it's it's an automatic. Um, yeah, it's a lead rotation. Ah, that's, that's a touchy thing with me because I, uh, I'm just getting into fountain pens like I said and I just bought, I was, we were out the dinner and we were right by a staple. And so I grabbed some of the cheap throw away fountain pens because I never tried them before. And the problem that I had to get over is because I come from a fine art and design background is I unconsciously turn my writing instruments as I use them absolutely. So if something does that for me, it, it's a different field. Yeah. Right. No, we've talked, we've talked about that a lot since the pencil came out and some people can't use it because they can't stop twisting it in their hands. And actually when I've reviewed it, you know, I had to make a, you know, I made a point of, you know, making sure the mechanism worked, I had to force myself to not spin it in my hand as I'm writing, you know, it's just, it's a natural thing. You know, we've been doing this for decades. You know, it's a natural thing. It's hard to stop. It's, you don't even realize you're doing it until you're told not to do it. And then it's like, Oh my God, I can't even write. But yeah, but it's, um, you know, I'm going to have to try it though because, um, but it functionally, it works. It's, it works perfectly. It's pretty astounding. It's one of those things that I can show people that don't really care much for this stuff. Oh, wow, that's, that's more interesting than I thought it would be, you know, right? Cause it is very, very interesting that they're that they, well, someone came up with it and to implement it so flawlessly in a relatively, I mean, you can pick one of these up for $7.50. It's, it's, you know, it's cheap for what it does. Yeah. They'll have it at state. They'll have it at Staples or Target, you know, just the base, the basic model. Then there's some higher end models you can, you can pick up online. All right. They'll be my homework this week, but they started, they started making them, uh, mass producing them because I think it went so well. So, yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, is there anything that, that you guys can think of that you would, see, I always ask everybody because I mentioned the fountain pen and that's cause nobody, I work in a machine shop. I mean, these guys never had never used anything besides a, a big pen, um, for, since we started making our own now, everybody at works carrying around a copper pen. And, um, when I, when I mentioned the fountain pen and Mike's reaction, that to me is very interesting because I'm kind of in a bubble, um, and I'm not even a huge pen fanatic. I love objects because I'm a designer. And so, um, now I have to put more thought. Thanks a lot, Mike. No problem. Well, for me, if you want, if you want a suggestion from me and I haven't seen it done, just like on, on, well, doesn't mean it's not out there, but I mean, you're like, you'll find other fountain pen projects on Kickstarter, but yeah, I haven't seen, I haven't seen anything for a good quality mini pen, you know, just a pocket carry along the lines of like Mike's Fisher space pen that, you know, people can throw with their field notes and, and, you know, have some variables around that. I don't know. I don't have a perfect design in my list. Yeah. Yeah. Number two on my list. Yeah. Because I'm a, I'm a big mini pen guy. I like the carry. I like the pocket carry and that whole EDC type of, um, yeah, I think that would is something different that really hasn't been, you know, there, there's been a few options out there, but just something that's really, really well done and really, I hate to use the word minimal, but just, you know, a real, right, simple, simple, but high quality mini pen. And there's a thing, a thing for me like it, in this is some, an engineering difficulty is there are so few of these pens, but so there's a pen that, that Brad loves that I loved called the pilot vanishing point, which is a retractable fountain pen. Yes. That is the holy grail of a pen design, I think. So the problem with that pen, um, for me, and it seems like all that there are only two or three retractable founding pens that we've been able to come across is the clip for the pen is placed in the writing area. Yes. And I don't really know why they make this, well, I guess they make this choice because then the ink won't run. Yes. Yes. So I, what I would like to see is a retractable fountain pen without that clip because the problem for me, I don't know if it's because I'm left handed or whatever, but I cannot hold those pens comfortably because with the way that I grip the pen, the clip is always in an awkward position underneath my finger. So as much as I do love as a piece of engineering, vanishing point to the point where I keep it in my pen case, even though I don't use it anymore, because it's like a work of art. But I don't use it because it's uncomfortable to use and like there's another one called the Lamys, what's the name of the Lamys? The dialogue, the dialogue three is the same and it has the clip there. And again, I mean, I've just worked out as I was talking about it because never really thought too much about why it was like that before, it's because then you aren't clipping it upside down. Mm hmm. But I would like to just see one without that, um, sit in like you can use it again. Yeah, and I haven't used the dialogue, but what I've and I've almost bought one several times. And what I'm finding when I'm reading the reviews about it is what pilot seems to have solved with the vanishing point that the Lamy does not do as good a job with is the, um, is the trap door mechanism to where to keep the nib, keep the nib from drying out, right? Since you're not doing it, sealing it with a cap, there's a tendency for the nib to dry out. And the pilots got that open space more on lockdown, it seems, then all the reviews I'm reading about the Lamy, like I've, I've had it in shopping carts and then I just can't get over the repeated reviews of, you know, this pin dries out, this pin dries out, you know, I've set it down for an hour and now I can't write with it and it's over and over and over. I think that's almost more of the challenge than the knock piece of, you know, the, the knock mechanism would be, I would think, because, you know, if your pins just going to be sitting out in open air, it's going to dry out and that's the biggest challenge in my mind. Yeah, that trap door is, is as an impressive feat of engineering as the fact that it is a retractable fountain pen. Right. It's, it's in the first time you see it and it's difficult to see. I think you took a quite good photo of it, didn't you? Yeah, I tried, it's hard, especially with the, especially with the black matte version. If I think if I had a chrome tip, I could probably see it do a better picture, it wouldn't be so dark. You could probably see it better and I, you know, I've held the Lamy, I don't, I don't, I don't remember exactly what it looks like, you know, looking up through it, but that seems to be a recurring theme with the, with the dialogue. So I think that's almost more of a challenge than the actual, the knock mechanism itself to, to eject the tip. So who knows? We can, we can put that in Dan's book. So that's, that's going to be Dan, Dan's next pin is a retractable fountain pen. Oh, no. Oh, no. No. Just kidding. I'm just kidding. I get, when I get something like that, my problem is I want to tear it to pieces to find out how it works. No doubt. And so it's, it's very tempting. And I mean, and that's very much how, you know, Bill at work, the, the owner is he's not afraid to tear any big apart. So you get something like that. And I, you know, I'll look at it and say, Oh, look at this awesome, you know, whatever it is. And he's like, Oh, let's tear it apart. And he just tears it apart. And I feel like I just, you know, you know, killed somebody's puppy or something. Like I feel horrible afterwards, but in the, in the name of progress, it seems to work. Yeah. But I don't, the, yeah, I, I don't know. I have lots, I have lots of ideas and twists on, on some things. And some of them, like you said, a pencil, if you can do something, it might just be an exercise in aesthetics. But I think eventually, whether or not those things are going to be successful, you know, who knows, but as a follow up, I think it would be nice because people have asked us, can you do like a set, you know, do you guys do sets of stuff? So with the render K and the retract, and I don't know, maybe a pencil, who knows, if you had something that looked on your desk, they all looked like they belonged, because don't we all just want to belong in the end, really? So I don't know, there's lots of stuff and I might pick your, both of your guys's brains a little bit off the air, but for the next one, I want to do something different. And what that ends up being is going to be a surprise to me and everyone else because I'm still working on it. So who knows? Well, good, I mean, if history is any indicator, I think we would all be anxious, anxious to see what's next on the, on the table from you and from Karis Customs, because I think, I think the retract, you know, I don't have it in my hands, but I think it's probably going to be the best one yet in my humble opinion. But we'll see how I'll get it in hand and we'll see how it goes, but it's, it looks incredible. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what else to say. It's fantastic looking and I'm anxious to see how this, this project finishes out. I think it'll be, I mean, it already is, but I think it's going to be just a huge success for you guys. Yeah. Me too, I just, it's, when it's over, it's going to be kind of nice because, you know, every day, like you wake up, you check, you check it, you're like, Oh, what's it up to, you know, every day, you're, you know, dancing around on eggshells, trying to figure out, you know, where it's going to be. And I've just taken to not looking at it because it stresses me out so bad. But yeah, it's quite the ride. If you've never, it's a unique experience to put something on Kickstarter to have something just out in the open and then you're on just a timer and it just goes. And you just, you know, it's like rolling a, a boulder down the hill. You don't know where it's going to end up or what's going to happen. But it's exciting to watch and nerve wracking at the same time. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And before we, before we wrap, I just wanted to make a comment on a, another show on the, on the five by five network called the frequency that Dan Benjamin and Hadi do, I guess this was yesterday. Mike. Just out of the blue, I saw it. I didn't have anything to do with it. They picked the retract as their Kickstarter project of the week on the frequency. So we'll, we'll include that link on there. It was pretty cool. And they actually got, they actually ended up calling Mike at the end of the show and he told them that we were going to have you on. We had already had you booked on our, on our show to do this interview. So it's funny how the, the timing worked on that. That caught me off guard. So that was pretty cool. Excellent. All right. All right. So I think, Dan, unless you got anything else, I think, I think it's a wrap guys. Dan, why don't you tell people where they can, where they can find you. You can find the retract on Kickstarter. If you search, just search for retract with a K instead of a C and, or you can go to our website to find a link and that's carestcustoms.com, K-A-R-A-S, and customs with a K. Awesome. And Brad is at panatic.com here at DowD-D-O-W-D-Y on Twitter, I am at, I'm Mike, I-M-Y-K-E. We will be back next week on the panatic. Do we have another guest next week, sir? We do have another guest next week, three in a row. Should we keep it a secret for now or what? Yeah. We'll keep it secret for now. But I think it's going to be one of these episodes where I'll probably post ahead of time and get some feedback going into it, if you will. Sounds like a good idea. We'll keep it on the down low for now because I need to do a little bit of work around it. So yeah. Keep your eye on panatic.com for that. Yep. Brilliant. Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of the Panatic Podcast. I'm Mike. He's Brad and the other one was Dan and until next time, bye-bye. Bye. Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]
