Hello and welcome to episode 60 of the Pan-Avic podcast, a weekly show where we discuss pens, paper and the analog tools that you love so dearly. My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by a man who has surely a star on the Hollywood walk of fame of Pendum, that is Mr. Brett Dowdy. Wow, I'm heading out direction, right, at least. I'm pretty sure if there was anyone that was going to be there, it would be you. But we have a bona fide star with us today. Yes, speaking of stars, why don't you introduce our guest, Brad? Well, we have the one and only Mr. Dan Benjamin of the 5x5 network. Hey, Dan. Hey guys, how are you doing? Very well, how are you? Doing all right. Like I said, I know you guys said before the show, you said you had to do some follow-up and other things. I just want to say for the record, I'm not qualified to be on this show. Let's put that out there. Set everyone's expectations. When our regular listeners hear what what pens you own, you will you will be instantly qualified. Trust me. Yeah, you are one of us. There's there's no doubt whether you're willing to participate. I did buy nice fountain pens for those for all my employees. Excellent. We will definitely talk about that. Okay, we'll talk about all this. I spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on this. For these people. Awesome. You're a good boss. Yeah. Should I say thank you, by the way? It's graceful. They never thank me. Never. So, Brad, some follow-up before we start? Yeah, yeah. Before we really get into it with Dan, we want to follow up on one item that we talked about last week. And apparently, I've got some superpowers, at least some Creskin-like skills because I predicted last week that this latest field notes night sky edition would sell out before their last colors edition, which is the America is Beautiful edition and lo and behold, about what two or three days after last week's podcast, they sent out the notes saying, hey, they're all gone. I was pretty shocked. What did you think when you saw that note come out? Well, I DM'd you the link to the post straight away because it was very fast. How many books was it again? I forgot. 45,000. So, you know, what a week. Yeah. So, 15,000 three packs. Yeah. I think, yeah, right at a week or just nine days, something like that. Yeah. I wonder if that business is working out well for Jim or not. I'm not sure. I think it's on the rocks. Yeah. I think Jim's trying to figure out a strategy on how he should really to take this business. You're a field notes. You own field notes, Dan, right? I mean, not the company. I'm a user. I've got the 50. I'm still working my way through the 50 states. Did you know we have 50 states, 51 or two now? I think they keep adding them here in the US. And they did a series where they did a field note for each of the states. I have a California set. Well, that's nice because you've been to California. I mean, I think they should add more states. I hear that London is going to be a state. They're going to call it new London and they're going to make it legal to drive on the left side. I'm just throwing it out. It's so cool to see Mike in the United States. So, isn't it walking around? T-shirt on sunburned instantly. It got off the plane from walking from the plane in just from the window of the plane being opened. As soon as he landed in the states, instant sunburned on his arm. And then as he's walking from the airport to a taxi, the rest of his body turned completely burned, completely red. Alcatraz ruin tonight. All you ate, what was up with you eating this? I don't know if this was just you. With all the Brits walking around here eating grilled cheese sandwiches. Like they've never had grilled cheese sandwiches. I went to the US and I ate a grilled cheese sandwich. What did you have, cheese? I mean, it's just such a strange thing that all of you guys did this everywhere we went grilled cheese. Do you not have it there? Is this like an American thing? Yeah. I had tea in London. What would you like to drink? I will have some tea. Well, this is a nightclub. We don't have any tea. But I'm in London. Is that the thing for you guys? I have never had a grilled cheese in a restaurant before and the one that you're referring to as a restaurant everywhere we went. You had grilled cheese. Oh, that's a good point, actually, because I grew cheese a couple of days later for breakfast. Well, it was meant to be breakfast and then it became lunch. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, I had lots of grilled cheese sandwiches. There's no denying that. Is that a thing? Like if I were to go to London and say, I'm American, would they just say, oh, you must eat a lot of grilled cheese over there in the country. We would just you would just be handed the only grilled cheese sandwich in all the UK. Every restaurant has one just in case of Americans. Like it has like that glass on the wall and it's like break glass in case of Americans. Right. No, this all makes starting to make some sense to me. All right. But this is derailing your show. This isn't what people tune in for, is it? Well, they're tuning in for you this week. So yeah, probably. Yeah, I think this is actually what is what they tune in for. So yeah, we're all. As long as you know, as long as I'm working working for you guys, I'm happy. Yeah. So another piece of field notes related follow up is that we got kind of swept up me and Brad in the talking about the paper. And well, I did because Brad hasn't we didn't have the dark sky and the night sky edition. The paper is actually the same as previous books. Yep. But I'm still having people saying, oh, it's different. It's different. But we'll see. I haven't, I haven't done any of the testing that I, that I normally do. But I mean, that Brian from field notes said it's the same. So I pretty much trust him more than anyone else, including myself. I think he's going to know more than anybody else. Yeah. Yeah. He actually reached out to us after last week's episode. He did. And thank this for, for talking about it so much. And, and he heard that on the paper. So he wanted to mention that. So that was, that was cool film. Thank you, Brian. And I was watching a, oh, I, my friend Aaron, he sent me a video. It's, he sort of tweeted a link to an Adam Savage video, Adam Savage of Miss, myth busters fame. And he uses field notes. Yeah, I saw that. I think I saw that when it came out and, um, yeah, that was, that was pretty cool to see kind of his, uh, his everyday carry, you know, field notes, what the Fisher space pin. So that's what you were trying to figure out last week. What you were going to carry with yours. Yeah, the, the, he uses the field notes Fisher space pen as well. So are you trying to be like Adam Savage and you're just going to carry the Fisher space pin too? Well, I figure if he's good enough for him. Okay. It's good enough for me, right? All right. Let me see how you are. Because if there is a guy aside from Dan Benjamin that I could, you know, model my life on, it would be Adam Savage. Yeah, that's, that's not a bad, that's not a bad gig that he's got. Saw him speak at XOX last year. I've seen that video. This is a genius, the guy is so cool. So cool. I mean, it's such a fun life too, you know. I applied for an XOXO ticket. On step one. This year? Yeah. Yeah. I listened to the, uh, to the, to the quit, uh, last week's, I guess with, uh, Andy Bayo on and, uh, yeah, they, uh, they have, they do it right. It sounds like they have a big time out there. It sounds like a good thing they got going. Yeah, it's a fun, fun time, man. Plus, uh, plus they pimped you out with, uh, stacks of purple field notes last year. Oh, yeah, they did. Because it's out, it's out in Portland, which is where Draplin design is. Um, so I don't know if Aaron was out at the, at the conference, or they just- He sure was. He sure was. Yeah. So they just worked through the, uh, work through the channels there. And, uh, I, I actually, I think I saved that. I don't know if I saved that, put it in the show notes where Dan was carrying around like a stack of about 50 purple field notes and walking through the hallway from XOXO XO last year. Yeah. They basically, they had a lot that weren't collected and, um, and they said anyone who wants them, and I thought, you know, I'll get these and I'll give them to guests when they come into the studio. I'll give them to employees and friends. And that's what I've been doing. Yeah, that's a cool word. So you, so you know, that's become a thing, right, where people like actually collect these, you know, off additions, like these conference additions, like this XOXO and other conferences. And, uh, it's kind of, I don't want to say it's become an ordeal, but it's, it's kind of, it's kind of become a thing. And people are like paying all kinds of money or trading and, you know, seeing all kinds of weird stuff on eBay, going for ludicrous prices. And we talk about it all the time. So it's, it's, it's, it's pretty crazy how, uh, how much of a thing field notes has become. So it's pretty cool. We're glad we can talk about it. We love them. Yep. Yep. Yep. So we're going. That was just going to get into it with Dan if you're, if you're ready. Well, I figured that this would be a perfect time to take a break for a sponsor. Yeah, I think Dan would appreciate that too, probably. Yeah, I go for it guys. You want to do it? Am I doing what you're doing? Well, I had planned on, on doing the sponsor, which is Squarespace. Good for you. No, just do it. It's your show. It is. Um, our sponsor this week is Squarespace.com, who give you absolutely everything that you need to make an amazing website. Squarespace is a fully hosted, completely managed environment that allows you to create and maintain a beautiful website, blog, portfolio, online store or site for your business. 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So you, you know, you can see that there. It's very cool, very cool indeed to see them. If you like statistics, you will love their real-time analytics that are built right into Squarespace. They're even iOS and Android apps that you manage and post to your site on the go. They have Squarespace Commerce, which allows you to add a fully integrated store into your website. You can instantly start accepting payments. You can start selling anything online immediately with Squarespace. Physical, digital goods, and you can have inventory management, order processing, and much, much more. Squarespace have 24/7 customer support. Free domain names. You purchase one of their annual plans. So much more. I want you to go and try it out for yourself. You can sign up for a free trial at squarespace.com. And then you can, you know, credit card needed to do that. Squarespace plans start at $10 a month for their standard plan and $20 a month for their unlimited plan. You'll get 20% off this price if you sign up for a year. You'll get 25% if you sign up for two years. And don't forget to use this code at checkout to get an additional 10% off. And that's 70 decibels, six, seven, zero, D-E-C-I-B-E-L-S-6. So go check out Squarespace, everything that you need to make an amazing website. Now we lost Brad. He does a nice job on that, doesn't he? Well, Brad is actually, I have to call him back in. I mean, this show on air. No, I mean, hey, hey, Brad, welcome back to the show. Yeah, well, at least it was a good editing point right after the ad. So I know what happened. We're going to keep it all in. We're going to live to tape this week. Okay, cool. Cool. So yeah, I vanished there for a minute. So we're hopefully all good now. All right, so we ready to get into it with Dan? We sure are. All right, so first off, Dan, did you ever think you would have a pen and paper podcast on the five by five network? I mean, let me put it this way. This is the kind of show that I always wanted to have on five by five specifically this topic. No way, but this is exactly the kind of show that I hoped would one day be on five by five. And there was a reason that I started five by five was to be able to have shows that can be about things that people really geek out about, like geek obsessed, right? Like pens, paper, that kind of stuff. A lot of people like, you know, whatever, I like, you know, I stole one from the bank, like it doesn't matter. But I think for so many people, they're passionate about this kind of thing. They're they love the act of actual writing, holding something in their hand and making something, you know, that I think it's so appealing whether that's a somebody who's an art student. You know, this stuff is huge in Japan. It really, really is. And there I think there's a rediscovery of writing things down. We talked about field notes earlier. I think that the concept for so long was, I take all the notes on my computer, I type everything on my computer, whether that computer is an iPad or a traditional laptop, whatever, that coming back and actually writing something down on a piece of paper, which I've always done, I've never stopped doing. There's, there's a bit of nostalgia to that. But at the same time, like, that's been around for thousands of years and it works. And if only my penmanship was better, I think I'd do it even more. But that's a whole other show in penmanship. Oh, yeah, we get it. You could have called this penmanship. That's true. We get into that with Mike. Mike is, Mike's not a, Mike's not a big penmanship guy, either. I get onto it for that. I see it. So what, so yeah, I think you're right. I think, you know, we, we all have our heads and our computers and our phones all day long. So I think it's nice to take a break and, and, you know, to be able to do something that, you know, people have done forever and just kind of take a, take a break, you know, back off, back away from the screen, use pen and paper and then kind of, I don't know, it is something that people really geek out on in a really serious way. Obviously, when we had, we're doing a podcast about pens for God's sake. So, and, you know, I write a blog about it and I review pens and it's just seems like, you know, you say it out loud or you say it to someone who's not, you know, not familiar with it and you just get the, the strangest looks. But I mean, it's really something that people just really have a passion about and it's, it's actually pretty crazy. Mike and I talk about it all the time. It's like our listeners and, and fans and readers. It's just like, you know, we have this great community and it's just, sometimes you just shake your head and it's like, wow, is this really happening? It's, it's pretty crazy. So, it's been good. It's been fun. So, so you, you say you're a, you're, you've always been a pen and paper guy. So did you, did you, you know, before say like the past few months when we've been talking and you've got some new pens and things like that, did you care what you wrote with? I mean, did you even have any consideration like what pen or paper you picked up? Did you, you know, keep them all skin or anything like that? Definitely. And is that right? Can we say moleskin now or do you have to be all fancy moleskin? Yeah, it's, yeah, you actually pronounce it better than me moleskin. And I just can't do it. There's a few, you know, a lot of these terms are, you know, like you were talking about from Japan, you know, a lot of the Japanese terms, I just butcher on this show. So we just, we just go with, I think you're actually allowed in the US to say moleskin or moleskin. But yeah, you're right. The actual pronounce, pronunciation is moleskin. I mean, nobody wants to be the guy that says it that way, though. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not walking around going, have you checked out my moleskin? But that's not going to happen. Well, and that has a different meaning in different cultures. It means a really different thing in the UK. Definitely. We're going to translate this show. No, and this is not a, this is an American show. Thank God. Right. Right. So here's the thing that I'm kidding. And because I know you have a lot of international listeners, here's the thing. I cared very much more about the notebooks or the right, the paper than I cared about what I was writing with, which seems backwards. But in my mind, if I had the right notebook, like having the right notebook, it's not like I had to be cool about it. Like, oh, I got to have the right notebook. But it was more like, if I have the right notebook, the ideas will come to me somehow. And I, you know, and then I'll, then, then I'll figure it out. All I need is that same notebook that my favorite author had, and then, then I'll have that idea, you know, and of course, I never panned out. But the, the idea that writing on a nice surface, having something to the notebook that can, whether it's the kind like a field notes, you can fit in your pocket or whether it's something you throw on your bag or whatever, that was always something I paid much more attention to. And meanwhile, I'd be writing with some, you know, crappy, you know, 59 cent big pen. And that never quite worked out. So eventually I started wanting to have something nicer to write with. And it seemed like the culmination of the ballpoint pen. Unless you really dive into this is you're either going to get one of these fancy little boutiquey pens, right? That's, that's a ballpoint or a gel or whatever. I know, you know, all the fancy terms for them, that you're going to spend a couple dollars on maybe three, maybe five on one ballpoint pen, or you're going to get like a Mont Blanc pen. That's like hundreds of dollars. It's this beautiful thing. And, you know, and, and I, especially when I was working with all these sales guys, they all had the Mont Blanc pens. They all had that. Oh, yeah. And that was almost like with them, because that would be their five year pen or something, you know, they'd get they because they all worked over at AT&T. And then wind up being their, you know, their, their, I've been here three years, I get the Mont Blanc or something or they had a good sales month. And I tried those pens and I was never really blown away by it. And I always remembered fountain pens. And I used to have fountain pens when I was in like my early, early teens, like really probably starting 11, 12, 13 years old. We used to have these fountain pens, but they were always terrible. That's because they were super cheap, but I never, like I never could master not completely getting the ink all over my hands, all over the paper, because I was a kid. Nobody ever showed me any of this. And so then, you know, not that long ago, I started listening to this show. I started talking to Mike. I'm like, you know, I want to, I want to go back to a fountain pen. I think I could do this now. And Mike went nuts. He lost. And I got more email from him. Usually he sends these emails that are, you know, you know, like a middle of the night emails. This was a barrage of email that began and didn't end for like three days talking about, and I'm not complaining. It was great, because he opened up my eyes to this whole world of amazing, amazing pens that I didn't even know existed. I didn't even know what was going on in this space. And now you can get these really, really great, amazing pens very affordably that are going to be so much better than anything you can buy at like, you know, where most people buy their pens at the office store, you know, the office superstore that is just amazing. And so ever since then, I've had a couple of pens that are so great. And I wound up getting them for the folks here that work with me in the office. And it just, it's, there's something completely nice about it. I mean, I think you're right on the main thing is, you know, people just don't know what's out there. And it's so much better. And you don't have to have a Mont Blanc to have a good writing experience. You know, it's actually probably the reverse, like you said, you know, just because you have a Mont Blanc doesn't mean it's worth anything writing with it. You know, it's like a status symbol or it looks great or it's expensive because it's got, you know, 14 carat gold, you know, hardware on it or something like that. But if you actually take it out to write, it's just like another pen. We talk about it all the time about how, you know, you don't have to spend $200 to have a good writing experience. You can spend $3, but just not, you know, step away from the hotel ballpoint for one second and, you know, think about, you know, spending $2 or $3 and you can have a whole, a completely changed, changed writing experience. So yeah, we definitely believe in that and talk about that all the time. So that is, that is the fact. So, so what did, what did Mr. Mike get you hooked up with here? He kind of, he ran a few things by me, you know, during, during his giddy school school emails to you, he was tweeting me in the background. What do you think? What do you think about this? What do you think about this? So what did, what did you end up going with? Okay, so listen, he, he, the first one that he told me to get, he's a wonderful, wonderful pen. However, the pen that I got later on my own without his help, even better. And I have a list of what I got in my first order. And I'll tell you what that is. It's a great pen. First of all, let me just say, this first pen that he told me to get this pen is the best pen that I've written with in 15 years. So let's, let's, let's be clear. It's amazing. I just like the second one even better. And maybe I don't like this one better because I went with a fine nib and it wasn't fine enough. I don't know. I'm not a pen guy. All right. Go easy on me. I don't even know how to pronounce this stuff. I just see it on paper. Well, you'll fit right in with us. And I, and I do this every day. So K A W E C O. Yeah, Kawiko, Kawiko, like Kawiko vision. Yeah, exactly. The Elmer Fudd version of Kawiko vision is the Kawiko AL sport fountain pen, fine nib, black body. Okay. So then I got, you know, all the fancy, uh, little clip, the nickel clip, that goes with it being cartridges. Cool. Looking pen. That's an awesome pen. I also got the auto auto auto. Oh, yeah. Oto graphic liner needlepoint drawing pen. Now that thing was amazing. It's incredible using the heck out of that thing. Yeah. And I got a, uh, again, can't pronounce it. Maruman. Yeah. Maruman. Nemo scene. Yeah. Hard book, four point one inch by 2.1 inch hundred sheet, which I love that also. That was my first order. And immediately I said, okay, I already was sucked in. So I wrote with this stuff. I wrote with this pen every day all day for a week. And I liked it. And I thought, okay, this is, this is really nice. But I wasn't, I felt like I should be in love with it. So I did some more research. And meanwhile, the folks in the office, they're like, what is this pen? Why, why, why are we using these awful pens? So I said, all right, I will put in another order. And what I got for them, were do I say, is it Lamy, Lamy, Lamy, Lamy? I got the Lamy Safari fountain pen, the extra fine nib. Two of those. I got the cartridges. I got a pack of the OTO graphic liner needle point, the whole drawing set. Because one of the, the people that works here, she's a, has a design background and does a lot of drawing and things like that. So I thought she'd like that. And that was for the office. But then for myself, I got, I went a little crazy. And I got the Pelican M205 traditional fountain pen with a piston filler. Yeah. Because that's what I used to have when I was a kid, my granddad had a piston filler pen. That the nib was completely ruined on it, which is probably why he gave it to me. But this reminded me of that. And then I got the, the, I think it's Jay Herbin fountain pen. Actually, actually we can help you out with that one. All right. Do you want to help him out with that one, Mike? Help me out. I shall. That is how you say it. Do you play that again? Okay, hang on. Who is that? We'll explain that in a second. Long time listeners will know that. And also, I'll also play how you pronounce the name of the company in a second as well. All right. Do it again. I like this. So this is how you pronounce the company name. Wow. I'm not going to be able to do that. Yeah, neither can we. All right. Well, that's what I got. And then I also got the Marvin Nemesin special memo notebook, 6.9 inches by 9.8 inches or as they say at Apple, X 9.8 inches. So what we just played to you and it'll be in the show. Yeah. What is this? This beautiful. Whoever that woman is, I want to meet her. So when me and Brad were talking about these things, and it's, G bar, but we say like Jay Herbin. Right. He found this video and it's that they do an untold amount. One of the listeners sent it to us. Oh, I listen to send it. So they do lots and lots and lots of inks. And this is a three minute video just pronounced in all of the names of their inks. Yeah, it's a French company, French based company. So they have a whole pronunciation video of this girl just ripping off every ink color all in a row. It's hilarious. It's great. So this is the geekiness we get into. I mean, it's just when the listeners sent us that, but I think we were crying the first time we listened to that just because we butcher most of these names anyway. Right, of course. So you got the Pelican for love this thing. I thought that I would get one of these Lamy. Okay, one of these Lamy fountain pens, because I asked my cow manager if she wanted one of the fountain pens, she said, no, no, no, I would like the drawing pens instead. And I said, that's fine. And so I got two of them. I was going to keep one. I gave one to my producer. And then she saw mine and she row with it and she's like, oh, I do like that. And I said, all right, you can have that. And because I had the Pelican at that point, I'm like, screw that. I remember when, because you sent me a link to the Pelican and it surprised me because I was like, I mean, I know that they're good because Brad sings their praises and has done to me and has done on the show before, but I would never have sort of suggested it as like a good starting point because it's, that's a real sort of fine instrument. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah, I don't even know how to really write with it yet. But I'm working up to it. I want to, I want to, I want to deserve that pen. And just for the record, so the list, so the listeners knows this is the Pelican M205, it's the black body steel nib extra, you went extra fine, right? You like the extra fine is extra fine. Correct. And it's got, they have the, I like the Pelican, they have that cool little ink window that's so cool at the bottom. It's, it's an awesome pen. Actually, I don't have this model. I think this is going to be the next pen that I buy this exact one. So it's, it's been on the shopping list for a long time. I have a different model that I, that I love. And I just got into the Pelicans not too long ago myself. So I can definitely know where you're coming from on. It's a different writing experience. It's, it's beautiful. And I was, so my question for you is, how long will it take before I'm, you know, I'm worthy of this pen, do you think? How much, right? And how does it, and better question, how does this pen compare to some of your other favorite pens? Because I know that you've, you've used this one and you've written with this one. And how does it, you know, how does it compare? I'm very curious, is this, is it, is it unique? Is it different? Is this just an example of, of a good pen or what? Yeah, I wouldn't say it's, it's unique, but it's a very prime example of a great pen. It's like, the reason why you bought it, like you were, you know, talking about how you grew up with like a piston filler pen, right? Where you, you, you unscrew the, you, you screwed like the, the back end of the pen and that sucks up the ink out of the bottle. And it's just a real easy pen to use. But Pelican, the quality of the Pelican pens is, it's really superior to like the other pens in their price range. So, you know what, it's very, it's, here's the one thing I'll say, and I'm not to interrupt you. And this is not a criticism of the pen. But it feels, it felt, when I first picked up, felt very lightweight. And almost a little, like, it doesn't feel too light. I'm talking about filled too. It doesn't feel too light. It's the kind of, and at first, I thought, ah, not like it's made cheaply because it's not, but like, hmm, but here's the thing. If you're going to write for a while, you don't want to hold a heavy pen. No. The lighter pen, it's just on the light side of heavy enough. If that makes any sense. No, I think when I reviewed, I reviewed this, this model, it might have had a little different, different build, but the same weight and same everything else. That's what shocked me the most is how it felt in my hand. It wasn't too light. It's not a big pen. It's not a huge pen by any means. But when you grip it and start writing, everything about it just felt right. Everything, the way it's built, the way it's balanced, um, you know, with, with the ink in, the weight is perfect. So yeah, no, it's a, it's a super, super high quality pen. And I really, I mean, it's really not that expensive in the, in the grand scheme of, of fountain pens. It's a good, it's really pelican's kind of entry level model. Cause the next step up from this one is a gold nib. But it's the same barrel size, same barrel design as, as what you have. It's just you're paying, you know, $100 more for a gold nib. And we had this conversation a couple of weeks ago, Mike, it's like sometimes, you know, getting the, the steel nib is, is the right thing to do. And you don't need to go up to the gold nib because you're going to get everything you need just out of a pen like this. And that's, that's why I like it so much. And I'm going to, the one I, the one I reviewed was on loan to me. Um, and I just hadn't gotten around to purchase someone yet. And that, it's literally going to be the next pin I buy just because I like it so much. It's a great pen. So you, when you, that's it. That's all I've got. Those are the only fancy pens that I have. So when you got to, uh, when you got the, the pelican and you got your G or ball, right. Um, do you take that in the office and people wondering, you know, what are you doing? You know, buddy, you have this bottle of ink in the office. What is, what does this guy has? They lost his mind because I'm surrounded by artists, you know, and the people that work here, they're all very creative people. And to them, it was like, Oh, it's about time you get a, you know, a nice pen. Uh, but you know, what's interesting is I, and I'm not kidding about that, but it, but it is interesting because I have the pen with me frequently. And, uh, when I, like, I'm, it's, it's not that I'm a germaphobe exactly. Um, as much as it's I just, if there's some kind of pen that's been floating around on the counter of the car dealership for months at a time and it's grungy and it's that cheap, blue, big pen that lost its cap. And there's a piece of, you know, masking tape, holding it on to a string tape to the, you know, back of the counter. I don't really want to write with that. You know, it's not something I really want to write with. So I will instead, um, you don't pull up my own pen. And I have frequently get people who are like, Oh, you know, like they will say, Oh, that's a nice pen. Like I, and they don't know what it is. I guess they see it's a fountain pen. A five dollar fountain pen is probably going to impress people who are used to dealing with that awful big, blue, big pen taped up to the thing. But you know, like you, people will comment. People will comment around here. I think people just appreciate it. But out in the real world, people notice the fact that you have a pen surprises. Right. Yeah. Just the fact that I have a pen puts me in a whole different class than most of the people, you know, at, at, at the car dealership. The fact that I carry my own pen, it's a way to distinguish yourself. It is a way to distinguish yourself, like a pocket square, different show. Like you said, it doesn't even have to be, you know, your pelican. It could just be any, any pen, just simply your own blue, big pen without a cat would would impress some people. Yep. Some to keep in mind for your listeners. Doesn't have to be a fancy hundred and forty dollar pelican. Nope. Dan is definitely one of us. Yeah. We can, I can hear like, this is what, this is the thing that gets you, Mr. Benjamin is. That's something I do enjoy this kind of thing. I enjoy, because you get to a certain point, Mike. Yeah. I don't know if you're there yet, where you start to think about the things that you surround yourself with, the things you, you're going to spend money on. And you know, there's an expression. And the expression is a poor man, I suppose today it should be a poor person, it would be politically correct. I know you guys pay less attention to equality over there in that country. But you would say a, a poor person can afford only the very best. And the way I was told this story, and I'm sure this is a famous quote that was butchered and then told to me by a friend of mine. And the way he described it is, let's say you go out and you buy, you buy a shovel and you go to Home Depot, which is a store that we have here in the United States. And the Home Depot is like, you know, you buy anything for your home from a refrigerator to a shovel to, you know, the potting soil on the plants, whatever, it's all that stuff. You go and you buy a shovel and you say, well, I only need it for this one thing. So, you know, I'm trying to dig this, this stump out of the, the tree stump out of the backyard. So you go and you buy a shovel and you, well, I just need a cheap one. I'll get the one for $12. So you go and you buy it. And as you're using it, it falls apart. It breaks. This happens. And then you say, man, now I'm going to go buy another one. So now you're going to get in the car, you know, spend more gas or petrol, as you say, and go and buy another. And now you've spent, now, and then you say, well, I'm going to get the, the decent quality. Well, I'm going to get the good one this time, which is $22, right? Well, now you spent $12 and then you spent another $22. But if you just bought the best one the first time, then you would have only spent, you would have saved the $12. And I feel like that's what it's like with things like this, like buy something that's quality and it's going to last a lot longer. And that's still true. Don't focus so much on like the brand, right? Because the brand doesn't really matter. Buy something that's going to last. Buy something that's the thing that you really want and then take care of it and have it for longer. If we've lived in a, you know, I don't know what it's like over there, but we live in a very much a disposable culture here. People used to buying that blue big pen or maybe it's paper made and writing with that thing. And when it runs out of ink, they just chuck it away. You can't refill it. You can't put anything into it. You don't have to be delicate with it. You drop it on the ground. You might not stop to pick it up disposable culture. Because you get a nice pen, you want to take care of it. I spent $136 on that pen. Guess who I'm going to give that to. Maybe give that to my kid when he graduates. You know, maybe he'll get his own pen, but he might like to write with mine. You know what I'm saying? That there, there's a different purpose. There's a different meaning there. And all along the way, while he grows up and gets older, I have a really, really nice pen to write with that is going to be better than all this. But then you wind up with crappy paper. I don't know how you guys deal with that. Because when you need to write on the crappy paper with your, with your nice fountain pen or something, that's not going to look good. So you can't want to upgrade everyone's, upgrade everyone's documents. You see, that's where you end up getting into a situation like me and Brad, where I would then have specific pens that are better quality that will perform okay on those on poor paper. Like, so you might want to look at like a really nice roller ball or something, which is of which would be of a higher quality than the ones that you would find in like office max or something. Yeah. But is not going to, to feather and bleed through like a fountain pen would. Yeah, the paper, paper is a huge issue. Just because, you know, if you're using the, just the copier paper, you know, out of the office, your pen is going to react one way to it. And like you're, especially your fountain pen. And then as if you're using the morm and, you know, which is the nice, you know, smooth paper that doesn't bleed, doesn't feather, doesn't do anything. So I mean, for me, and I think a lot of people that listen to this show, you know, I work, you know, you know, in an office, just, you know, your standard, your cube farm type of situation. And I bring my own paper. And if I have to use, you know, something off the printer that I need to mark up or something, you know, I'll, I use my own paper at my desk with my fountain pens. And then I'll just reach for a different pen. I have to have to write on this crappy paper and just, and just, you know, pick a better pen to use it with it at the time. But it's mostly, because I carry my own paper with me essentially, you know, keep it at the office and just use my notes and my documentation and all that stuff. So I can use the nice pens that I want. So it's an issue and people are always searching for the best paper or something, something better than they have, but or they're looking for, hey, I'm stuck in this office situation. And I have just reams of copy your paper. What pen's going to work the best for that? And so we have those conversations too. So yeah, paper, paper is a huge deal that that people don't give a lot of considerations to sometimes because paper, it has not paper has changed as pens and printers and things like that changed. Now, you know, the expected thing is, is a ballpoint pen, a cheap ballpoint pen. That's what people expect you to write on regular paper with these days. Back in the, you know, all corporations are buying these days too. That's it. And that's what their office supply cabinet is stuck with that junk. Yeah. Yeah. So if you, if you bring out a nice pen and you want to write on that crappy paper, it's not set up for that. That's just something people should know when they go and they get their pen. If you go and buy one of these nice pens, maybe you guys should do an intro show again. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like for beginners, I would love to listen to that. Because this is like a warning you need to say, if you go out there and you spend, let's say you want one of these nice fancy fountain pens or even one of the more reasonably, reasonably priced, uh, Lamy, I'm not saying that sounds wrong. I want to say Lamy because I'm from the Northeast. Lamy. You buy one of these Lamy pens. And, uh, and, and you're going to find like when you sit down, you grab a, you grab that, you know, that yellow, college-ruled notebook off the shelf and you write down something. It's going to be like, it's going to be blurry. It's going to smudge. It's going to look like crap. Yep. You know what I mean? It's going to look terrible. And you're going to be like, Oh, this new pens and piece of crap. Well, it's not what you're writing on as a piece of crap. Exactly. Because they make these, they make special paper. You need to get both. If you're doing an order and placing an order, you need to, you need to place an order and you need to buy one of these, uh, I don't even know how you say it anymore. One of those special notebooks that's, that's, uh, the Japanese ones. Yeah, Mormon, you need to get that because that, then you can at least know, Oh, this is what writing with a nice pen on nice paper is supposed to be like. And then when you go to your regular crappy paper and it's not nice, you'll be like, well, I know why that's not nice because it's crappy paper. Yeah, I think that's, I think we need to do a revisit the basics kind of show, Mike, because we, we still, we're still doing a lot of basic stuff. I mean, we're 60 episodes in and just last week I was doing, you know, fountain pen ink basic. So we do this stuff all the time. So I think that's a, I think that's a very good idea, Dan. We will, we will do that because just, just like you said, you don't want someone to get disheartened when they buy this nice pen and they go use it on this cheap paper and it, it doesn't perform up to their expectations. And then they're done. They're like, Oh, this isn't what I expected. And, you know, forget this. And you know, back to my, my hotel, my Marriott courtyard ballpoint and, you know, that works better on this. And yeah, yeah. So I think that's a good idea. So Brad. Yes, sir. Do you have, having listened to Dan and, and where he is right now with, with his pen habits, do you have any sort of recommendations for him? Like, can you, from hearing like, you know, what sort of paper he's using? Do you think that there could be some paper that could be better for him? Or, you know, is there like maybe a roller ball or a ballpoint that you might suggest to him or another fountain pen or something? I think, I think the fountain pen's pretty covered. I mean, that's, that's really about as good as you get. That's going to last you, like you said, that's going to last you a long time. There's really, unless you, there's some need that you have for a, for a fountain pen. That's, that's going to last you a long time and that's going to work well. As far as other recommendations, I mean, I know Mike is a huge fan of this and you probably expected, I might even say this, but we're both fans of actually a brand called Retro51, just for a roller ball pen. Like, let me ask you this, Dan. So last week, well, two weeks ago, you were at WWDC in San Francisco. This weekend, you were in L.A. I don't know what you were doing except eating because that's all that was in your Instagram feed was the out food. So I think we did eat a lot of food there. We did eat a lot of food. So y'all just went for an eating trip to L.A. So do you, do you carry a pen or paper when you go on these kind of trips? Yes, always. Do you carry your fountain pen? I have been the first one that I got. Okay, the Koiko. Yeah, the cartridge pen, that works a little bit better for travel. So like, for travel, I mean, the cap comes off and it goes on and the way the place where it screws on is further down. So it's much, much, much more pocketable and it's heavier. So you're, which you would think, oh, that's bad. I don't want some heavy in my pocket, false. You know, if it's in your pocket or not, you don't have to be like, Oh, where did that thing just float away? But if I'm wearing a sport coat or something like that, then I feel a little better having the pelican in there. The only problem is fountain pens is they can leak or explode on planes. Yeah, they do, they do tend to do that. So if you have a piston one, NBD, you put the ink in your suitcase, you empty the most of the ink out. But if there's only a little ink in there, I think you're fine. Yeah. Yeah. Either one. You want no air in there, basically, either all air or none. Right. So, but, um, pressure. Yeah, but I think you would like, maybe something like the retro 51 that me and Mike talk about all the time, where it's just, it's a heavy duty roller ball, but it's, it's probably, I mean, to me, it writes better than a Mont Blanc. I mean, it's, it's fantastic looking. It's super durable. It's something, you know, you can throw in your backpack or in your pocket or would look good in your, in your jacket pocket, too. They seem here's my problem with those. I don't have one I've never written with one. They look great, but they seem like they're not the size of a regular pen. They seem this w here. Even like wider, like it'd be too wide for you. No, I mean, like, it's not long enough. Like, oh, no, it's, it's probably, it's at least as long as you're pelican. Is it really? Mm-hmm. From these pictures, it just doesn't look that way. Okay. Might be, might be bigger. I can, I can take a picture. I'll put that in the show notes. I'll take it. Yeah, be great comparison picture. I'm looking at pictures of them at the retro 51 tornado roller ball pen. Yep. And like jet pens has them. Do they sponsor this show? No, but we do. Not yet. Not yet. They should. Have you reached out to them? I think we have. How do you talk to them? Okay. We'll talk. We had a cult pens last week, which is another great tribute to. Yeah, they were fantastic. They have any website retro 51. They do. Yep. I would get those pens that the one is a spades pen. I've got one of those. Oh, that's so cool. It looks really good. That is awesome. You should get it. All right. You'll send me work. Now you don't have to send me anything. No, because I don't, I don't have a nice ballpoint pen that or roller ball. Yeah. What does the retro 51 mean? What does that mean? I don't know. Just, I don't know the branding. I don't know what's behind the, the origination of the name, honestly. But they do. I mean, they do keep it and try to keep that retro style with their packaging and their marketing. You can see it on their website, all the graphics and things they use. So, you know, it's just built around, built around that name, but I don't know the exact origination of it. Oh, I guess that's a deluxe, the tornado deluxe that looks like that. Yeah, that's all right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think something like that. I mean, your pelican is going to go a long way with to meet your writing needs. I mean, you don't need, you know, you don't need 10 different pens. You know, you're not having to, you're not testing them out like I am or trying to answer a million questions about them. You just want a good writing experience. So, I think if you had a good fountain pen, which you do like the pelican, a good roller ball that, you know, it might be a little bit more portable than the fountain pen, and durable, something like the tornado. And then, you know, after that, you know, you might want a real, I don't know if you like the super fine line stuff, but you know, you can get a couple ball points like the jet stream or Acrobat, just to, you know, knock around type pens, you know, that you're not afraid of losing. That's the thing is you want to, you want to have a few pens that you can take somewhere and you're not afraid of losing to, but you know, you know, you don't have to use someone's a janky big ballpoint, you know, with 8,000 layers of germs on it. So, but you know, you won't sweat it if you leave it behind either. So, you know, it's good to have a couple good writing, cheaper writing pens like that. So, and I think that that would pretty much cover it. I mean, you don't, you know, people that, you know, listen to the, to the podcast, you know, you don't have to have a million pens, you know, find a couple that work for you. Like Dan said, you know, spend some money, find the right one and you're set for a long time. It's exciting stuff. I'm glad the show is here. It's fun stuff. We have fun with it. I do know that Mike and I, we get a kick out of doing this show. It, it's always kind of lifts us up during the day. We have, we have a lot of fun doing it. And it's, it's, it's a blast. So, hey, we, we definitely appreciate you being on today. It's great to be here. People can get to the show notes. They can go to 5x5.tv/penadict/60 for this episode. And they can see all of the pens and paper and inks that we discussed today and some extra little fun things too. You can find Mr. Benjamin. He is the founder and lead podcaster at 5x5. It's 5x5.tv, but you knew that already. And Dan is also on Twitter. He is @DanBenjamin. And I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E, and Brad is @dowdism, D-O-W-D-Y-I-S-M. On Twitter and he writes @penadict.com. I think about, that was a sub, gentlemen. I like the shot. I think it's good stuff. We have to have you on again down when you, when your pencil case extends even further with more and more additions. Oh, that's right. We need to get you a pencil case. We didn't even talk about that. Once your addiction gets deep, you're going to need somewhere to put all these pens, Dan. Yeah. No, I mean, I know I do. And there are more questions I didn't even get to ask you guys. We will definitely have you back on. That's for sure. Can't wait. I hope I qualified. I hope this wasn't just boring for people. It's just boring for people. Don't patronize me. Don't patronize me. We could talk, we could have random Bob off the street talking about just some, any pen that I've never even heard of and people would be like, "Oh, I've never heard of that pen. Oh, that was a cool episode." So yeah, no, this was perfect. This was ideal. People always want to know what other people use and having you on here and talking about some of the pens you like. It's right up everyone's alley. I think it'll be be a hit. Excellent stuff. We'll be back next week. Thank you, Dan. Thank you for that. Bye-bye, - Bye everyone. - Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]
