When Seth Meyers started at Saturday Night Live, he saw pictures of famous former cast members on the wall and was convinced he had to become an actor. It took time to realize that wasn't his path. He's now celebrating 10 years as host of Late Night. His new HBO special is Dad Man Walking. He talks to Rachel about being best friends with your parents and embracing being the butt of the joke.
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Wild Card with Rachel Martin
Seth Meyers likes being the punchline
This message comes from Carvana. Carvana makes car selling easy. Enter your license plate or VIN, answer some questions and Carvana will give you a real offer in seconds. Whether you're looking to sell your car right now or whenever feels right, go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. Has ambition ever led you astray? You know, being on SNL, obviously there were a lot of people that I was colleagues with who both were on SNL and they were having robust acting careers outside of SNL. And I was covetous of that. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three, questions about the memories, insights and beliefs that have shaped them. You make this mistake if you walked on a hallway and you see pictures of former cast members. My guest this week is Seth Meyers. Sometimes the podcast gods throw all the wrenches at you at once. For this interview, I was taking the train from DC to New York to talk with Seth Meyers in person. This is not a big deal when the train is running on time, but mine was not. And then when I finally did get to the city and I hoofed it to the NPR building, there was a fire drill, because of course there was. And Seth Meyers had just battled traffic to get to our studios and he had a busy day of other events promoting his new HBO comedy special, "Dad Man Walking." So yeah, we had to take a minute to push all of that away and get into the right headspace for our game. And one thing that was clear to me as we got going is that no matter what other distractions there might be, Seth Meyers is a person who likes to get things right. That may be part of why he's been so successful as a cast member and then head writer of "Saturday Night Live," and of course in his current role as host of "Late Night." But it was fascinating to watch it in the context of this interview. Obviously, there are no right or wrong answers in this game, they're just supposed to be honest answers. But the moment that really made me see that side of Seth was when he called himself out for not being truthful pretty early on, which then opened up a different kind of conversation. Seth Meyers. Yes, hello. Hello. Hi, thanks for having me. We're so glad that you volunteered to do this. Did you volunteer? I'm not sure. I feel like I was asked and said yes. Is that volunteering? Yeah, I'm going to say it is. I accepted the invitation. And I'm so glad. Well, I'm glad too. And congratulations on two counts. What's that? I heard that many months ago, it was your 10th anniversary. It was February. Of your show, Late Night. 10 years of Late Night, nuts. It is nuts. And I feel like when it's an anniversary like that, you get to celebrate. It's a whole year. Oh, interesting. OK, I'll take it. No. Really? I barely wanted to celebrate the night. Oh, that's interesting. Just keep going. But I mean, you turned 50 recently, so to die. You didn't want to celebrate for a whole year? Oh, God, no. I wanted it to be. I wanted everybody to move past it. I'll move beyond. OK. It was nice though. Did you have a good 50th? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's about right. Yeah, that's about right. Yeah. That's the tone to say it. No one's ever like crushed it. My 50th was out of control. No, it's not really that kind of birthday. Yeah. And number two, you're new special. I do have a new special. On HBO. Deadman Walking. Deadman Walking. My favorite part of the special-- well, there are lots of favorite parts. But I did like thinking about you playing board games with your kids and the physical contortion that one must endure in order to find the pieces. It's incredibly edifying, if that's the right word. How everybody responded to it. Is that right? I liked how-- because the first time you tell a joke like that, which is basically how frustrating it is that kids can't keep dice on the table. And I loved the first time I heard the audience react and know that I was onto something. Yeah. Yeah. I have an issue with games these days. First of all, cooperative games. OK. Do you know what those are? You have working together and not against each other. I don't even know what that means. Like how are you going to tell? That means you're uncooperative. It is. It does. Yes. [MUSIC PLAYING] OK, so this is a game. OK. Oh, we're going to play a game now? We're going to play a game. Oh, great. So here's how it's going to go. OK. OK. So there's a deck of cards in front of me. I'm going to hold up three at a time. OK. And then you will pick one at random-- OK. --to answer. OK. Each of them has a question that I would love for you to answer. You're just going to pick one. All right, great. It's basically, if I don't like the question, it's my fault, because I chose it. That's right. It is your fault. But I should say there are two tools at your disposal. OK. So if you pick a card, I read the question. You're like, mmm, I'm just not into that. You can skip it, and then I will replace it with another from the deck randomly. Or you can flip it. So you can ask me to answer the question before you do. OK. It basically just buys you time. To think. Yeah. It's three rounds, a few questions in each round. Are you ready? I'm ready. OK. Let's play. Let's play wild card. Is that-- Let's play wild card. Wild card. Great. I like the upward intonation. OK, let's do it. OK. Three cards in front of you, one, two, or three. Middle. Middle, number two. Yeah. What was a moment when you felt proud of yourself as a kid? Oh, that's a lot you didn't ever. I never felt proud of myself. And that explains why I've never felt proud of myself as an adult. My dad did a really special thing. I had done an art project at school, and it was a Christmas drawing. And it was a bunch of reindeer going around in a circle around Rudolph in the middle. And this is not a good painting. And I know that because it is still in the wall and my parents' home. But he brought it to a department store, unbeknownst to me, where you submitted art for prizes. And I didn't know this. And we went to this department store, and my parents were walking us through. And it had-- I had had one ribbon. No. Yeah. That's amazing. And I almost tell you the story. I almost just got choked up saying it, because-- and it was a very lovely thing that he did. And it was very cool that he did it as a surprise, because I do remember to this day walking around the corner and just having to process one, that was something I did and to someone other than my parents had put a ribbon on it. Yeah. No. Can you produce art to this day? No, but that was my game plan for a long time. I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a comic book artist. Oh, really? And my wife is so exceptional with this right now with our kids, which is my parents are very good at seeing an interest and making sure they use that as the propulsion for what my hobbies are going to be. So I wanted to be a comic book artist. And my mom found a guy who taught comic book drawing. And I would go to this guy's house once a week and draw a comic book stuff with him for a couple of years until I realized I wasn't particularly good at it. But I was still-- I enjoyed it. That's awesome. Yeah. OK. You did great. See, it's so easy. So easy. So easy. Three more cards, still on the first round. One, two, three. One. One. When have you felt most homesick? When have I felt most homesick? I, after college, I had the most wonderful two years. I worked at an American comedy theater in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. And I loved every minute of it. But it was the first time I'd never been overseas. I'd never been away from my family. And my family connects so much on stuff like watching sports together and the massive time difference. And I felt very far away from my parents, mostly on Sundays, when I couldn't even check in with them during events of great value to us. But in general, I should say, I don't often feel homesick. Well, I'm kind of gave you a phony answer, baby. Oh. I've never felt that homesick. OK, interesting. Yeah. You are close with your parents, though. I'm close with my parents. And I think one of the reasons I've never felt homesick is my parents have always come to us. So I have never felt homesick. And one of the reasons-- because my parents still live in the house I grew up in-- Wow. --one of the reasons I don't feel particularly homesick for that is my parents have an old English sheepdog. And they have had different ones over the course of the entirety of my life. And I'm definitely allergic to them. And when I thought I was chronically ill, all through high school, and then I went to college. It was like, it's an autoimmune disease. Yep, and then I went to college. And I'm like, nope, it was the dog. We even went-- I was telling this story. Because my dad is one of those people who will not accept-- he was very frustrated with how sick I got. And he thought there had to be a root cause. And so I remember we went to one of those allergy doctors where they do the prick test. Oh my god, I had that done in my back. Yeah, it's hard. And so you know your whole arm. And I remember just driving there. My dad being like, we're going to figure this out. We're going to make you better. Nobody should be as sick as you. And then they did the prick test. And the biggest spot was dogs. And then we got in the car. He's like, we're not getting rid of the dogs. And so-- So yeah, so I'm not home. And again, I-- Take a couple of Benadryll, you'll be fine. Exactly. I'm very close with my parents. I see them a lot. So you know what, I gave you a phony answer. Feel free to edit it out. No, I love that. It's not everybody who gets to say they don't feel homesick because their parents, whom they like, come to them. We just have my brother just kind of married. And I was lucky enough to give the best man speech. And one of the things I said, because we did not have both at my and my brother's wedding, there were not a ton of blood relatives at our weddings. We invited a ton of friends. You don't like them. It's not that. We like them, but they're just not. My parents are my closest friends. They're not just my parents. Like, it was-- it's not enough. It was a friend wedding. And they happened in your parents. They made it in his friends. They didn't make it in his mom. Wow. Yeah, pretty good. Yeah, that's pretty good. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hey, it's Aisha Harris from pop culture happy hour. If you love NPR podcasts, you'll want the new NPR+ podcast bundle. 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Plus reflections on gratitude, joy, and the power of kindness. Listen to new episodes of all songs considered every Tuesday, wherever you get podcasts. OK, so I'm going to put the cards aside for a second because I want to ask you about your special. OK. Dad man walking. Yeah. That's fertile ground. I think so. Yeah, your family. It's the only ground I know. Because again, look, I have a talk show and four days a week, I talk about what's happening in the world. And then outside that show, I mean, basically, in a way that is incredibly valuable to me. Like, I am almost only a father and a husband, and it brings me great joy. So I wanted to have an outlet to talk about that. It was not my show. And so that's what I got. And you've done it before. So it's not like your family's totally caught off guard when this happens, but I'm still interested in the conversation of like, and now, Alexi, it's time. It's time again. I'm going to bring out the laundry talk about it on stage. I think she-- I mean, there's a great responsibility to the freedom she gives me to go out on stage and talk about it. She's very aware. And she also knew what she was getting into. I mean, she did-- Right at the beginning. Mary community. Yeah. And the amount that she gives me a tag to a joke about her, even at her expense, yeah. And so she wants it to work. And there are times where, if I told her, I was, oh, I'm going to do a bit about X, she might say, please don't. But if I get it on its feet and I reach a point where it works, the audience laughs. But they know I love you. I think that all the jokes about my wife, my kids, my in-laws, my parents, nobody doubts I don't love them. Right, because you'd be weird. Like, you're saying, like, it's not like, you know, there's some comedians, like, you when it's over, you're like, I don't know if Rodney Dangerfield likes his wife. This isn't that. But yeah, so it's-- but I do wait until that actually works before I'm like, hey, here's this bit. You can tell me if you don't want me to do it. I wouldn't do it. And you know, more often than not, she's like, nah, that's funny. That's good. And what about the kids? The kids, you know-- Don't get a say. They don't get a say. Even though they deserve one, they didn't ask to have a comedy father. But I think if anybody watches the special and you said to them, now, based on what you've heard, who's the dumbest person in the family? Everybody would say me. So, you know, part of it, of course, is like how you structure it, which is-- and, you know, there's a I don't give anything away. But I will tell you, my wife's favorite joke and the special is the one about my inability to fold up a stroller. I am giving her the gift of me being incompetent, which I think she enjoys me saying on stage. Yeah. And then your kids get bragging rights at school. The bummer is, for my oldest Ash, you know, the fact that I called my first special lobby baby. Sometimes people will come up to us in the park at what I'm with my boys. They'll be like, which one's lobby baby? And Ash is, I mean, I think, as it slowly dawns on him, that nobody wants to meet a hospital baby. Right. He's kind of like it. We have to give a little context. Your second born child was literally-- Was delivered, yeah, in the lobby. Born in the lobby. Yeah, he came very quickly. Right. And it was a very funny story. Great story. And you're told it and it's wonderful. And Netflix, Netflix, mine. Right, Netflix was paying for it. And the other kids are just like who I, you know. And then regular style hospital room. Because our daughter, Adelaide, was born-- we didn't even try to get her to the hospital. She was a home birth. Oh, really? Oh, you guys learned. We did like-- You're like, let's just keep it-- And we just, you know, wear that. And she's her entire-- The best is all three of my kids have the vibe of where they were born. Because she was delivered in a bathtub. Beautiful home birth. First night of her life, slept in bed with my wife. Just the zenest, chilis kid. Axle, lobby baby, fully is like on his own clock. He will kick a door in. He does not care about what-- Right, he's at home anywhere. He's like, let him do an inappropriate thing in a public space. I'll eat in the middle of the street. Yeah. And then Ash is like my conventional first who is just trying so hard to do things the right way. So another bit I loved in the special is when you talk about how parenting styles skip a generation. Or at least they're different. Yes. And your parents had a way that they raised you and your brother. And that is different than how you parent. Yeah, my parents, my dad yelled and screamed at me. And I was like, I'm not going to do that to my kids. And now I'm very ineffectively keeping my cool with them. And I think they're going to yell and scream at their kids. See, I totally agree. I do think it skips. Yeah. Like my dad had this thing. He was constitutionally-- he had decided. He'd chosen a life where yelling was not allowed. It wasn't going to happen. And that turned all my-- me, my sister, my brother. We are raging yellers. It is almost my preferred way to communicate with my children to the point now that I'm worried that if they're just out in the world and someone yells, like, danger. Yeah. It would just be like white noise, like Charlie Brown teacher, because that's how I communicate. I will say, I had a heartbreaking thing happening, which is when my dad screamed, we were genuinely scared of him. Like, my dad was like, physically scared. But like, he was an intimidating guy, right? Whereas-- I was driving me the other day. And I was losing my temper. And my son was in the backseat with his friend. And he said, oh my god, my dad's about to lose it. It's so funny. And I just realized how-- I was like, oh, I'm just so neutered. As-- like, whatever my dad had, I don't got it. It's just entertainment for them. Yeah, they're like, this is really fun. [LAUGHTER] [MUSIC PLAYING] Round two. OK. One, two, or three. Three. Has ambition ever led you astray? Has ambition ever led me astray? I'm not astray. I think that sometimes ambition maybe led me away from my strengths. But that was, I think, maybe competitive jealousy. Being on SNL, obviously, there were a lot of people that I was colleagues with who both were on SNL and they were having robust acting careers outside of SNL. And I was covetous of that. And I mean, I guess it's ambition. I was like, oh, I want to be in movies, too. And I'm very-- slowly, it dawned on me. And it probably should have dawned on me faster. Oh, this isn't the thing I'm supposed to be doing. Like, I'm good at some other things, but being an actor is one of them. And when I look back, I'm like, oh, we said a lot of time and put myself through a ringer that I could have avoided if I had just had the sense of like, you know what? Sometimes ambition for a thing is misplaced if you don't actually have the sort of underlying talent that you need to go along with it. But you came to that realization on your own. I didn't take someone telling you that part's not going to work out. I mean, I should say, like, I kept not getting cast. So it wasn't like anybody ever took me aside. You know, it's not like your agents are like, stop. They're still like it. But I did at some point say, I don't want to go on auditions anymore. And I think I'm just going to-- and at the time, some other things happened that being promoted to head writer at S&L was-- I realized, oh, this is an accomplishment. And it should be enough for me. And I should maybe let go of that other chase. But that's a harder, I would imagine, head writer at S&L. Like, what's that career to do? Like, you, it worked out for you. Sure. But when you're an actor, you're just like, I'm an actor. And then you have acting jobs. I guess one of the things was I wasn't as much of an actor as other people in the cast. I had been an improv comedian. And then I had this weird path that led me to S&L. And then you make this mistake. If you walked on a hallway and you see pictures of former cast members and you think, because you work at the same place, they do, you're going to have the same career path. But it's a mistake to say, just because you get hired at the same place as Adam Sandler or Will Ferrell, that doesn't mean you're going to have their career. And a lot of different people with a lot of different skill sets come through S&L. And so I'm very grateful that there was a patience with my time there that allowed me to find my fit. Yeah. You like what you do, 10 years old? I mean, right now, I like what I do more than anything I've ever done. Really? Yeah. Which I didn't think. I thought S&L would be the thing I'd love the most. And I will say that my current job with my current place in life and children and a family and my age-- you kind of get to build a home when you have your own late night show for a decade. Whereas at S&L, you rarely felt like you were-- it was like a Twilight Zone episode where you were just checking into a different hotel every week, even though it looked the same, because the energy of that show changes so much every week because there's no-- the ground is constantly sort of shifting based on host, and you can never sort of-- and so now it's-- I don't know. It feels like we've built something that's a little bit-- it feels like nesting, as opposed to whatever S&L is. OK. You want to do the 1, 2, 3, or can I yell at a number? I made these cards for you. Look, they're so pretty. 1, 2, or 3. Are these unique to each guest? No. OK. But I do hand-write them. But once. Well, right. But still, I put them real-- You didn't make these for me. You made them. But I made them one time. One time, my god. And you're trying to get a little-- I tell a lot of time. I hope my next question is, have you ever lied to someone dead in their face, and then I'm going to flip it and make you answer? One. Mm. OK. Are you good at knowing when something should end? Yes. Relationships. Uh-huh. Conversations. Conversations, definitely. You're good at conversations? Yeah. Like ending them? Yes. Disagreements? Yes, I'm very good. I once-- I hope I don't get in trouble with this. My wife and my sister-in-law were fighting once. And I walked out. It was like during a very fraught Christmas vacation. It was like, we were all-- too many people were in my in-laws house. This was a classic recipe for young-- Just too many. Yes, for young children, everybody. And they were fighting in the hallway. And I came out. And I screamed. You know, some people de-escalate. And they were both very taken aback. But I-- It's easier to end someone else's debate. I'm very-- I know when to walk away from an argument. I think I'm really good at that way. I think I'm part of it as I'm more often than not willing to take the L. Yeah, that's interesting. I think I'm happy to take the L and a disagreement for the purposes of moving on. And relationships-- I don't have-- I haven't been in many toxic ones. I feel like I certainly am capable of ending those. But in general, I would think of the way I've built my life as wanting to maintain relationships as opposed to wanting them to end. I think it's really not to shine you on. But that's a thing I would hope to be able to teach my kids is to have the confidence and security, emotional security, because it takes that to be able to say, I don't care enough about winning this. Yes. You win it, and it's OK. And I'm not giving you false winning. I'm really like, it's OK. I'm going to walk away. I feel like I was in, I think this is true of a lot of people. I was a far more temperamental when I was younger. And things ran very hot at S&L. And there were definitely times where my instincts were to say something that would have been relationship ending to people. Oh, really? Just you have an argument. And looking back, all shamefully petty. But you didn't say those things, or do you? No, and one of the reasons I didn't say them is because my producer and dear friend, Mike Schumaker, who works with me now, works with me now. I remember once saying, I'm going to go tell so-and-so. He's a, you know what? And he used to always say, it's a long life. It's a long life. And the people that you work with here-- And you want a long career, yeah. What's not even about career? He's like, look, the people you work with here, what you are going through them is going to, even for the ones that aren't your favorite people, this is bonding, and you will need, for the rest of your life, you will need these relationships to remember what this time was like. And these people, more of them are going to be your wedding that aren't. And so I'm very happy I lived by the adage of it's a long life. Because if it's somebody you think might be your friend in the future, there's no reason to burn it down in the present. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Once again, we find ourselves in an unprecedented election. And with all that's happening in the lead up to the big day, a weekly podcast just won't cut it. Get a better grasp of where we stand as a nation every weekday on the NPR Politics Podcast. Here are seasoned reporters dig into the issues that are shaping voters' decisions and understand how the latest updates play into the bigger picture. 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Join the NPR Politics Podcast every single afternoon to understand the world through political eyes. - Last round, Seth Meyers. - Okay. - Three more cards. - Great. - I hold them up. - One, two, three. - Three. - Three. - It's big. - Okay. - How have your feelings about God changed over time? - Oh, I haven't done. - They've been consistent. - Yeah. - So your wife is Jewish practicing. - Yes. - Yeah. Raising a kid's Jewish. - Mm-hmm. - Right. So when your kids come to you and say, have they lost anyone? Do they talk about what happens after you die? - We've taught, we're very honest about death, but we haven't had one that is what I would say is seismic. But I also feel, if my kids wanted to talk to me about the idea of religion and God, I feel like I have a very strong, I'd like to believe, at least, a very strong moral compass that I didn't necessarily need to get through religion, right? I feel like, because I don't believe in an afterlife, this is it, right? This is our one chance. - Yeah. - So live like this is the one that counts and don't do anything that you would regret because there's not a second chance to get this right. - Yeah, I feel like I was totally comfortable in my spiritual ambiguity for most of my life, but then having kids was like, oh, what do I tell you? But I think they're more comfortable in ambiguity than I think I often give them credit for, I think. - I mean, you know, I do like, you know, they just started Hebrew school and I think, you know, that's a, I think will be a very special thing for them that I didn't experience and, you know, I almost look forward to seeing learning along with them what they're getting out of it. - They're gonna have to like get up and say a bunch of Hebrew and give prayers and make speech. - Very, the very low end, they'll get some public speaking skills out of it. (laughing) The very bottom of what we can ask. (laughing) - I think that, you know, if any religious tradition can at least make you comfortable in front of a crowd, well, it's funny when I did a strike force five with my other for late night hosts. - We should say this is during the pandemic. You guys, you got together with all the late night hosts and you did a podcast. - That was the greatest strike. - Oh, that's right. - They, there was a bit of a lot of giant events that upset at our schedules, but it was funny. All, they were all, I think all four of them said, you know, they thought about life and the clergy and then they slowly realized they just liked the fact that like somebody got to go up and talk. (laughing) - Like that was the part that appealed to them. - There's an audience, everyone listens to them. - Everybody listens to them. - Everybody listens to them. - Does we add admiration? - And so I do think that public speaking part of it is. I think that's a really nice piece of it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. Last one. - Okay. - Uh, one, two, for three. - Two. - What's something intangible you'd like to pass on when you die? - I, would... I really learned to love how other people are funny and very important obviously, I want to be funny and I work really hard, but I've been in a great position being at SNL and, you know, getting to, I was the late night show for 10 years, like just being able to laugh at other people because I get a lot of joy from making people laugh, but it is easier to laugh at other people and it's always at your fingertips if you want to do a little bit of work to find it. And so, I wouldn't hate if people remembered that I took a lot of joy in what other people were doing. - Yeah. - And I mean, as far as like my kids, I just hope my kids have a life that is, I mean, I just want laughter to be, you know, a big part of it for them and they, so far they haven't and, you know, again, it's the happiest sound. - Right, your kids laughing, yeah, so, as long as they don't do it, you know, before seven in the morning. - That's right. - You know, directly at you. - Or at your expense rather. - I don't even don't even mind that. - You don't even care. - No. - I don't. - Especially if it's a really good joke. - I'm so happy to be that just the rodeo clown of our home, you know, who just, they all just turn on me and it's the best. (gentle music) - So we end the show the same way every time. - Okay. - With a trip in our memory time machine. Where you choose a moment you would like to revisit, you don't want to change anything about it. It can't be the lobby where your baby was born. - Okay. - A moment you wouldn't want to change anything about, you just want to linger there a little longer. What moment do you choose? - I mean, I, I did the White House Correspondence Center and very high stakes and felt like it went really well and I remember going back up to my hotel room waiting for my sort of friends and family to show up and that that moment of my parents and my wife coming through the door and being able to tell from their faces, how are they gone? I kind of, I was, I would like to go back there. It was really nice. - It did a good job. - Yeah, it was nice. - I was really, it was, but it was also, I felt so supported. Like it was so wonderful they were there and so many of my SNL friends were there and it was, it was, that night in general, it felt like I had been, I was one thing and then when that night was over, I think, I don't know, I feel like without that night, maybe I don't have this job now and I, it was, it was just like that entire night, I wouldn't mind having one more run it. - Thank you for sharing. - The new special is called Dad Man Walking. You can see it on HBO Max. It's very funny, it's worth your time. - Thank you, thank you. - Thank you for doing this. - I won. - You won. - I won. (laughing) (clapping) - Thank you. - If you liked this conversation, you should listen to our episode with current SNL cast member, Bowen Yang. He was really thoughtful about figuring out how to be famous and vulnerable and authentic all at the same time. - This episode was produced by Cher Vincent with help from Romel Wood. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Patrick Murray and co-Tucka Sugi, chair and event. Wild Card's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Rom Teen, Our Blue. You can reach out to us at wildcard@npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then. (gentle music) - You care about what's happening in the world. Let's state of the world from NPR keep you informed. Each day we transport you to a different point on the globe and introduce you to the people living world events. We don't just tell you world news, we take you there and you can make this journey while you're doing the dishes or driving your car. State of the world podcast from NPR. Vital international stories, every day. - This message comes from Grammarly. 88% of the work week is spent communicating, so it's important your team gets it right. Enter Grammarly. Grammarly's AI helps teams communicate clearly the first time. 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