Terry Speaking to the Barcelona "Easy Does It, But Do It" meeting on November 29, 2023
The Daily Reprieve
Barcelona Meeting - Terry M
[Music] Hello and welcome to the Daily Reprieve, where we provide essays, speaker meetings, workshops, and conferences, and podcast format. We are an ad-free podcast. If you enjoy listening, please help us be self-supporting by going to Donate.WReprieve.com and drop a dollar or two into the virtual basket. Please consider donating monthly by clicking the "Donate Monthly" button. However, one-time donations are always welcome. Just click the "Donate Now" button. Now, without further ado, this episode of the Daily Reprieve. [Music] Okay, today, the 29th of November, 2023. We're very happy to have with us Terry M. from North Carolina in the U.S. Sober, since 14th of March, 1986, he will be sharing on the topic of willingness, power, and other musings. You're now on Terry. You have 25 minutes to share, and Jerome has volunteered to be... No, didn't I say I was going to time this part? So, yeah, I can time you. Would you like a five-minute to-go hand like that? Would that work? Yes, thanks. Okay, the floor is now yours. Be very welcome, Terry. Thank you. Hi, everybody. Again, my name is Terry. I'm a lust addict and a sexaholic. I've been clean and sober in essays since March 14, 1986. That is also my clean and sober-dated narcotics anonymous and alcoholics anonymous. I also am or have been a member of the non-programs related to those various addictions. Two things before I start out, I want to let you know. First is that I'm not going to be talking too much about my higher power. The only reason being that's a long, long talk and sharing, and that would have to be at another time. Secondly, as I make cough from time to time, that's a congenital cough I've had for 50-some years, and not to worry about it. I'm not going to die or even like that. If you've partnered things about me, I grew up in the Hollywood area of Los Angeles. We were an upper-middle-class family living in a nice neighborhood. I had plenty of good friends in school and later in college. I was not an outcast or a loner. I didn't get into a lot of trouble. I played sports in high school. I was no all-star, but I was a pretty good athlete. I have a very high IQ and had an easy time getting straight A's throughout school, except for art in French. How did such a person get to be a sexaholic? Obviously, there is no form of sexaholic. I went to college at MIT, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where I got a double degree in business and mechanical engineering, and later an MBA from UCLA. The reason I talk about this is I did not like going to MIT. The first two years were difficult for me. High school had been so easy that I never learned how to study. I didn't know how to learn new technical things, or things that were difficult to understand. I wasn't used to not being the star student. I say this because once I graduated in 1966, I had absolutely no desire to go back to college for graduate. The problem with that being that once I'm out of college, I was eligible for the draft back then, and I was drafted. I was in the Army for three years, one of those years being in Vietnam. Being in Vietnam was one of the three worst things that have ever happened in my life. The other two were being abused by an alcoholic father and being a practicing sexaholic. I say that I have been singed on the outer beings of health three times. I don't wish to get any closer than I ever have. I do not blame any of those things or persons for my sexual addiction. Plenty of people have gone through worse than I did and never came close to doing the things I did. I cannot blame what I did on anyone other than myself. I return back from Vietnam. I'm reading some of this and I'll be spreading in places. I'll just hold on a second and I will be changing pages now and then. I'll return back from Vietnam with a ranging case of PTSD, although I didn't know that's what it was. For 15 hellish years, I was a liar, a cheat, a thief, and a wretch. I lied, cheated, stole, and debased dozens of women, family members, coworkers, employers, employees, and anyone else who could enable my selfish self-centered addiction. I was seething with rage then and got into horrific shouting matches or physical fights with family members, wives, coworkers, and even policemen. I couldn't hold a job during those 15 years. I had about 12 jobs and half the time was unemployed. Being unemployable and having three very expensive predictions is not a good formula for financial well-being. So I did what any self-respecting addict would do in such a case. I stole a money. Any way I could, including wiping out the college fund my parents has set up for my two sons. Rather than giving a long lust or drug or drug log about all my malevolent deeds and such, I'll simply say that in the essay brochure, the 20 questions, I answered yes to 18 and probably lied about the other two. So I'd like to talk about some of, I call them musics. I like to ponder, muse, contemplate, think about things, figure out, analyze them and such, which may or may not be a good thing for an addict. But some of the ones over the last 37 years that I think might be worth sharing, I'd like to do now. The first one was, it is less than I'm addicted to. Now, obviously that was not an original thought from me. But as soon as I heard that, it made so many things make sense to me that I couldn't understand before. I had tried and tried and tried to stop the acting out and that I learned was not what I needed. I mean, I didn't want to act out, but that's not the way to not act out. And so for the first six months or so of my sobriety, the thing that was always on my mind was, I must surrender lust. I cannot entertain lust in any form, at any cost. And I use the word entertaining in that. I cannot dwell on it in any way, shape, or form. Understanding that it was lust for me made everything fall into place. It helped explain why I couldn't stop my acting out. Lust was the high. Lust was the trigger or shoes. Once that fuse had been lit, it was game over and I would lose big. It may be possible to surrender the urge to act out once the lust has been activated, but it's 20 times harder, more difficult than if the fuse is not really lit. So, for me, it's much safer not to like the fuse and to try to run along and run after the spark, trying to stomp it off. So, in acting out was simply blowing off the steam from the fires of lust. But blowing off the steam doesn't do anything to quench the fires. In fact, it just leaves more room for more oxygen to rush in and stoke those fires even more. And not only that, when I opted out, it was a form of lust. And so I had created a perpetual lust in acting out emotional machine of endless lusting in acting out. So, in the beginning of my recovery, it was all about learning how to surrender. I remember going around at... sober members, kind of like a little three-year-old saying, "Tell me how to surrender. What do I do to surrender? How do I know if I surrender?" Today, here is what I tell my sponsor, or other people, the readings. On a lust app, you're a lust app. You do not have the ability to not lust. You do not have the ability for the power to stop lust from squeezing through the smallest crack in your arm. And that the victory does not come from not lusting. Of course, we don't want to lust. For me, the victory comes from what I do about it, the instant I realize I'm lusting. And sometimes I don't realize that right away. Some people have a three-second rule. I have a three-one-thousandth of a second rule. I can't afford to say, "Gee, I wonder if this is really lust or not." Or three more seconds won't hurt. I might be able to, but it's not worth the price for me to find out just how far I can go about. So, how do I surrender? For me, I give it away to God, and this is how I do. It's very difficult to not think about something. If I tell you to don't think about a purple and pink polka dot a hippopotamus, you're dead. Every one of you is now thinking about that and trying to get it out of your mind. For me, what I found is, instead of trying to force that out, is I try to think about something else, something for me that is healthy, that is pleasant, that is prayerful, or can be programmed related. For me, personally, I use the AA third step grip. I offer myself to be, to build with me, to do with me, so on. I have that power that will be a way of life. That seems to pretty much encompass the things that I need to be thinking about if lust is coming. Sometimes I have to repeat that three, four, five times in a row, because if I'm just saying it by rote, I'm not thinking about it. It's just coming out. I have to make sure I'm thinking about those works, about what it means. Then sometimes five minutes later, I have to start the process all over again because lust thoughts come back in. It doesn't have to be the third step for anybody. Anything that I, to me, is healthfully comforting or programmed related. It could be a photograph of your family that you could be looking at thinking about. It could be thinking about cuddling up with your pet on the couch, whatever. For me, something that will get me thinking about that rather than the lust. About six months after that catchphrase, a new one came to me and that was Terry. You've got to want. I have to want to stay sober with every fiber of my being. I have to be excited about that. Many of us come to SA because we don't want to suffer the consequences anymore. Or we're going to lose our job or we're going to lose our family. That's a good reason to come. That's why I came. But we stay in the program because we want to, because it's the right thing to do. Because we know we feel we, if we're doing the next right thing. I skipped something there about how we got to Wanna and I quote a lot from the big book of A&E. Half measures availed us nothing. We asked his protection and care with complete abandon. So I looked up abandoned in the dictionary and it means to give up completely. Give up a course of action of practice or a way of thinking. It means to give up with the intent of never asserting or claiming that again. So it's a more powerful word than I really thought when that was written. Doing something for the right reason, because it's the right thing to do, brought me to my next catch phrase using. And I think it's the most important one I've had. And I can almost guarantee that if you can, if I can live by this tenant, I will stay sober. And if you could live by this tenant, you could stay so. And that tennis is that catchphases will I feel clean afterwards. Not can I, before any meaningful decision or choice I make, I try to ask myself if I'm going to feel clean afterwards. Not can I convince myself I feel clean, not can I rationalize why I don't feel clean. And for me, whether or not I feel clean is not judged by the results of what I, what happened because I'm usually powerless over that. It's found what my motive was in doing. If I, if I, if I have a clean motive, then I'm going to hopefully feel clean afterwards. And I can give an example in my life. I was invited to a birthday party for a very good and close friend of mine. I was really looking forward to it. I want to be able to spend more time with the human family and such. Then I learned that I had to go out of town on business. My boss told me we had to go out of town. And I was really disappointed that I wasn't going to be able to be at that party. So to, to be nice about it, I called my friend and I told him, I said, you know, gosh, I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to be at your birthday party. And he goes, what party? I don't know anything about a birthday party. Yeah, I can see the look on some, that was the look on my face too. Both of us, it was a surprise birthday party. And I didn't know that. Now he was devastated. And I see he was devastated that I had ruined all his wife's hard work and planning the party. He let me know that I had ruined it all for him. He was furious with me and was yelling and screaming that he never wanted to see me again. Now I felt heartbroken. I felt terrible, sympathetic, but I didn't feel unclean. My motives were late. They may have resulted in a disaster that I felt terrible about. I ruined a party and I lost a good friend. I felt terrible, but I didn't feel unclean. Now, kind of on the same vein, I can do something. The same thing, and depending on why I did it, I can feel clean or not clean. If my wife comes home and I rub her back her feet because I know she's been tired. I know it's been hard to eat for her. Even if that doesn't help, I feel clean. If I rub her back her feet because I want her to think what a great guy I am or that she'll own me a back rub or even that it will lead to something more. The same action, but I don't feel clean at all. They're like to find clean. Five minutes. How do I feel clean? I can't define it, but I know it and I especially know when I don't feel clean. A few weeks ago I came up with my latest catchphrase musing. I was preparing to lead a meeting and bring a topic on how real power had never worked in my helping with me with my addictions. I'm going to skip some parts here. I wondered why it didn't work because it had worked in other parts of my life. So I thought looking back on it now, real power never really worked anything. It never worked on my studying when I was in college. It never worked on my not getting speeding tickets the way I drive. It never worked on any of my addictions. I also saw that real power wasn't going to work on the consequences of what I did or could or couldn't do. If I don't study, real power is not going to help me get good grades. If I don't brush my teeth, real power is not going to help me not get cavities. Same thing with shame and divorce and such. Something I did see though was that willingness does. I think that willingness does work. In fact, in my opinion, willingness is essential, necessary, crucial and working all of the steps. That willingness gives me the power to work for steps. On its own, my real power cannot help me believe that a power greater than myself will return me to sanity. It will not, will power won't help me turn my will and my life over to the care of God who's out on your standard. The willingness on its own won't really do any of those things, but willingness will. So I came up with the term of willingness power. Willing this power gives me the power to do all those things or gives me the ability and potential of doing all those things that I couldn't do with real power. In fact, it's probably absolutely essential that I have willingness power if I'm going to stay sober. Another thing that I've seen in program is that in my opinion, tolerating is not accepted. In the big book, it talks about patience, tolerance, kindness and love and yes, that is good stuff. But I'm talking about the type of tolerating when I'm gritting my teeth and clenching my fists until I can't stand it anymore. Tolerating usually has some type of a limit on the time limit or how often somebody, you know, they will do it before I blow up. And as I said, I'm just gritting my teeth, holding all those resentments back until I pass whatever tolerance level I have. And it's views out when everybody around me, even, you know, even, it may not even be the person who I was trying to tolerate or whatever, but it's views out. And acceptance on the other hand is non-conditioned. I think it's by definition, it's unconditioned. Whatever I accept is now a fact of life for me. I accept the fact that as I age now, my cognitive abilities are not what they used to be, and they're going down. That's the way it is. That's life. I can get upset with that and pretend it's not happening or whatever, but it's much healthier for me to realize that. To find out what I can do to ameliorate that, or to help deal with the world now that there's a different paradigm I'll talk to you. Coming up on time, Terry. Okay. All right. I'm going to do a real quick on one. I have seen among all the, my years and years of talking with addicts is one of the things we really all have in common is self destructiveness self self attempt. It's, it's a trait. I've seen just about everybody happen, of course, including myself. It's stronger than a trait. It's, it's some force inside us. And I've seen that. I've seen it in my case, it almost caused my death. I'll, we don't have to talk to that, but I've also seen that I can never found a solution for it. But what I, or, but what I found is, I can look back and see what types of things seem to cause that self destruction and such, whether it's feeling less than, whether it's. I'm, I'm remembering something I have a resentment about or whatever. And so when I'm feeling that way, I can say, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. You better be careful here or not. Similarly, I look back and I look for telltale signs of when I have been self destructive. It can be, you know, a nervous fancy of my knee up and down or I'm staying up late watching TV or I have a sponsor who, whenever he drinks a lot of caffeine. He seems to do something destructive, not the caffeine cause the destruction, but it was a precursor of that. So you might want to do that a little bit. If you feel you have this self destructive tendencies. So look at when and, and what some of the telltale signs are. Yeah, I think that's it. I'd like to just share one thing about my definition of a bottom. Okay. A bottom for me is when my situation is deteriorating faster than I can lower my standards. It's funny, but it's true. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. I didn't get to say everything, but still. Thanks, Terry. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm going to see sex. Thank you so much for sharing my gosh. I don't like popping my hand up so quick, but I have so many questions. I think the one I'll go with is at the very end, you were talking about noticing. And I do notice when I go into those self destructive behaviors. What do you do to turn yourself around? Honestly, I don't have a solution. I mean, I think there's a long term solution. I might try long psychotherapy or something, but it's more to just be like I said, like I said, to be alert that, okay, something's going to happen now. And I do have one thing I wasn't sure if I should share, but nothing good in my life ever happened after the words to heck with it. Okay. And it's not usually to have with it, but so I do see that when I say that, that's not going to be good and that's usually self destructive. But I have not found a way to turn the whole thing around. Well, I guess thank you for that answer. Thanks for the question, Nancy. And next up, we have Sue. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your share. I actually had Nancy's question. So, so, okay. And the other thing I will say is thank you for your share about cognitive abilities and not what they used to be. And, you know, there's some things you just don't think about when you're 30 years old or 40 even and I saw the eyesight and just but being accepting. And I think that's I need more acceptance of some of these things because, you know, but anyway, I want to thank you so much, Terry, and I'll pass. You're welcome. One of the things I learned was that the more I obsessed on what my kind of, you know, abilities are happening, the worse they got when I really, truly just accepted it. And was able to say that's how life is. They, they didn't, they haven't been going down as fast as before I did that. Thanks Sue for that question. As an aside, I happen to just scan across the pictures here. Every, every one of us is wearing eyeglasses, speaking of cognitive and physical. At least the people that I can see here. Jerome, you're up next. Okay. Thank you, Daniel. Thanks everyone. Terry, so grateful for your share, sharing your story. And I know for me when you mentioned the willingness that was right up my alley because that has been a big part of my program. The times when I haven't been having that when I haven't had that willingness, I'm just like stick a fork in me, you know, to heck with it. And then, you know, things are things get really bad for me from there with the lust and so yeah, I just wanted to comment on that and thank you so much for just bringing up the subject of willingness because that is so important for me. And my journey of sobriety on my journey of sobriety recovery. So thank you. You're welcome. I don't have anything more to add on that one. I do want to say, Daniel, that everybody here with glasses, maybe my mother was right about certain things that will make us go blind and we got programming in time. I don't know if you understand what I'm saying and I don't think it was a good joke. So forget it. I get what you're saying though. Thanks. Thanks Jerome for the question and Joseph, you're up next. Hey, thank you so much for all that Terry and my question is, I look at my life sometimes and I see that it's not just lust that I have a problem with. I see all these problems. Sometimes I will get in my head and become so overwhelmed and feel like I need to just, you know, fix all these things or work on all these things and I know that's terrible language already because it's as if I'm doing it. But I guess my question is, how do I just start with the beginning or I don't know. That's not a very good question. But this is just, yeah, it's being overwhelmed. I think anybody, I don't know how I've been, probably anyone who first comes in, gets totally overwhelmed by, oh, wait a minute, all this lust I never thought about, and all these resentments I got a deal with now, and all these people who I've harmed. And yeah, it's overwhelming. There is one day at a time. I can work on one thing at a time. I'm never going to be able to work on anything if I'm acting out. But one day at a time, and I have another little catchphrase that is, so what? Okay, it's a short and form of how important it is. But for me, when I quit doing all those other things I was doing, I quit drugs, acting out alcohol, I gained 35 pounds. And my sponsor said to me, that's not going to kill you. Okay, you can deal with that one day at a time. Now, if that was, if I was an overeaters or something like that, that would be different. But just were just some of those things, you know, so what if you accidentally upset your brother, or so what, or whatever it is, it's not the world. Like, just focus on what I can do one, one day at a time, or like, I don't, I don't remember who it was and what movie about baby steps. That's been, that's worked for me. Thank you so much. I really needed to hear that. Thank you. The question, Joseph, and buddy. Hey, I'm buddy. I'm a recovering sex, a hallway. Thank you for your sharing. I don't, I don't actually have a question. What I heard you say was that when you had gotten drafted at one of the places our government sent you was to Vietnam. I, I enlisted, and fortunately, I was not sent to Vietnam. I think our government recognized. I would have been a greater danger to our side, because I was already an alcoholic. I was already a drug addict, and I already had. What's recognized today on Plex PTSD from my own childhood experiences. So I actually saved a lot of US GIs lives by being sent off to Germany. And somehow, like it's hard to believe our government could figure that out, but they did it. I think I've heard you on tape a couple of times through these years, maybe. It's just really good to hear you, and I'm actually just to see you. And yeah, I got cognitively caught me as well, but I'm staying sober. Thanks, Terry. Reminds me of a story. I'll try to be quick about it. When I was in Vietnam, they, they allowed pornography to be sent. And, but I got a letter from the equivalent of the postmaster general of the army in Vietnam, going something like a lieutenant. We understand that soldiers when they're away from home and such need, you know, comfort or whatever, or whatever, but you, sir, have gone way beyond what anybody I have ever seen. Do and cut it out. I remember you speaking of that. Yes. Thank you. Thanks, buddy. And Ed, as we've got you in the queue, you'll come up after Jerry. So, Margot, you're up. Hi, I'm Margot Sucksaholic. Thank you so much, Terry, but I love just the whole experience of listening to someone with so many years of experience in staying sober. And my question is, could you describe some of the things that you do to make to keep that willingness for a front? I know the first thing is stay sober, but how do the willing, the willingness power? Yeah. Yes. One thing I do periodically is read my first step, just so I don't forget just how bad it was. Also, newcomers remind me of just how bad it was. Now, I've never slipped since I've been in the program. But one thing I think I noticed is it comes from the first step in that people feel like life without acting out is worse or harder than when I was acting out, just because all of a, I don't know. And so I don't ever want to forget what it was like. And I'll tell you, every time, if it's an addict or not, I see somebody do something and I say, what were they thinking? Okay. I say to myself, what were you thinking or not thinking? And my wife is in program, my daughter's in program. They both work very strong programs. And I see their willingness and that excites me gives me more of a desire to be willing as well. By the way, if you don't know my story, it was my 16 year old daughter, which is my stepdaughter then, who got into program before I did and 12 stepped me. So that's a miracle. Thanks. Did I answer the question? Thanks for the question, Margot. Jerry, you're up. Thanks, Daniel. And thank you, Terry, for really inspiring talk. A couple of things, if I can comment on that. Your talk was really helpful to me in the acceptance piece. My very low vision, age-related, molecular degeneration, some same problem. I'm obsessed about it. And I'm not accepting it. And so your phrase was, I've got to accept these kinds of things, because it's happening and it ain't going to go away. That was very helpful, probably by definitely me, higher power self with that. The other thing that I wanted to comment on was this business of self-destruction. We want to do about it. With everything in the program, I take a very short term perspective. I like that in the third step. The third step of the discussion, we have a new employer. So I have a new employer. So every kind of four steps that I take, I check it out. I say, "Oh, yeah, I'm on the right hand, Dan Boss." And while I finish your task, I ask, "What's next, Boss?" And so if I take a short term perspective on that, it may be on that issue of self-destruction. It'll probably be easier for me than trying to fix the whole thing all at once. Thanks, and thanks for a terrific talk. Thank you. Do you know Dove in Baltimore? I'm sorry, who? Dove, D-U-V. Oh, Dove, yeah. Yeah, I sponsored him. Yeah, he's wonderful. The one that he's wonderful, he's got your response. No, I'd love him right for the get-go. Yeah, thanks. And something I'd like to say, I would appreciate it if people tell me, "Hey, I don't go along with what you said or I disagree or I have another look at that. I mean, you don't have to do that, but please don't hold back if that's something you want to talk about." All right, thanks, Jerry, for the question. Next up, Ed S, and then we'll get to Akiba. Hi, Terry. Thank you very much for your talk today. I really like that. I want to maybe take a little bit different view. I have a tremendous problem with control. My problem with control is when I give up control of something, I end up with a resentment. How would you suggest getting rid of control without going to a resentment for me? When you saw it, would you tell me? Yes, I will tell you that I resent it when I'm the one controlling you. If I say, " you know, Terry, you got to get this done." I will fight it just because someone is telling me to do it, even though it's me. I have this thing that is really dangerous for me. It's just not fair. First of all, who am I to decide what's fair? Secondly, so what? I hate to say this. No, I don't hate to say it. I've had to practice that most with my wife, and she's almost always correct. I was the definition of contempt prior to investigation. In fact, there is no other way than the way I think it should be done. I don't even going to listen to any possibilities. I have just seen now that when I let it go with that, I learned a lot. I've learned a lot when there's a group conscience, and I know they're all wrong. But I have decided I have felt that any time a group conscience says this, they're right, and I'm wrong, just by definition. I also try to use the first tradition in my marriage and other things, our common welfare. I really try to look at one thing to be done, what is in our common welfare. And it usually ends up that what's in our common welfare is much better than what I think is in my welfare. So, there are some of my thoughts. I like the idea of the common welfare. I can probably handle that a little bit easier than saying, "No, you're wrong." Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks, Ed, for the question. We have about five more minutes, and we have Akiva and Kathy W. That may be all the time we have for questions. So, Akiva, go ahead. Thank you very much for your talk. What do you do when you're grappled with anxiety? You mentioned control, and as a result, resentment. So, when I stopped having resentment, somehow I have either anticipatory anxiety, or just anxiety over outcome, or anxiety of what is going to be the next right thing, or what is going to be the result of what I thought is the next right thing. So, just the overall anxiety. Yes, let me tell you that at the end of my acting out, I got no pleasure. I'll get no pleasure at all from it when I would be starting to get up. I would be one if someone catches me, what if this, what if that, and what I saw after I got sober was. I'm a adrenaline junkie. As much as I hate the feeling, I was hooked on that anxiety, that electricity that comes from it. Now, I'm not saying that's you, but I'm saying that I've had to deal with that. And what I talked about before about acceptance, you know, if I'm not sure if this is the best way or this is the best way, that's good, because that means either one of them is probably good. And if I make my decision, just based on what I think is right, I don't have that anxiety. I can learn that, oh, that wasn't the best way to do it. It's what I thought was the best way. You know, what's the worst thing that's ever happened to me because I made, you know, because I was so anxious about whether I made the right decision or not. I mean, really, nothing has ever been as bad as I feared it would be. I don't know, that's, that's my, I'd probably have to think on this one more, but that's what comes to my head now. Thank you. Thanks for the question, Akiva. And then probably the last we have time for is Kathy W. Sure. She wrote in the chat. Thank you, Terry, for your candid share. May you explain more about your definition of bottom. I feel it is important, but I don't quite understand. Is it connected to will I feel clean after? Thank you. And let me mention this is from someone whose English is not their first language. So you might need to explain the joke. Okay. Yeah, it's about rationalization and about denial. If I, I mean, I had all these, I didn't know they were boundaries at the same, all these lines that I said I'd never cross. I'll do this, but I'll never do this. Well, I crossed every one of them and I could rationalize it. I could lower my standards so that I was wrong. It's not as bad as I, it's not as evil or whatever as I thought it was. So I was lowering my standards, lowering what I was willing to live with about me. And when it came to the point that I couldn't get lower enough fast enough, that was when I hit my bottom. And I'm just thinking about one of the things, I did a lot of things that maybe should have been a bottom, but weren't. But what my bottom was was how many people I was lying to. I was lying to everybody. And I had Terry's immutable rules of the universe that nobody lies to me. If you lie to me, I'm, I'm done with you. But I was lying to everybody. So that helped me realize that I had given up on what my standards were, what I believed was acceptable. And yeah, it's a joke, but it's the time that hits home and we laugh at ourselves when we hear it. I hope that's a good enough answer or understandable answer. Yeah, Kathy, thanks for that question in the chat. Yeah, Terry, we are not a glum lot. It's, you can try not to be. So Terry says, thank you so much. Okay. Can I share just one of the quick one I had. I worked in Moab, Utah for 10 years, but there was a clubhouse there. I had all these slogans on it. And one of the slogans, one of the plaques among all the other ones was. Figuring it out is not one of our slogans. And so, anyway, I wanted to at least get that in. Thanks. Thanks for that, Terry. And we're out of time for our questions and answers. So thank you, Terry. It's been a fantastic meeting. Let me close off the recording. 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