Radio Miraya
2842: ROUNDTABLE: The Economic use of land
[Music] The round table. The round table with me is Garen. Today we are discussing the economic use of land in South Sudan. The population of South Sudan is estimated at 12.3 million with 85% living in rural areas. According to the WFP station report of 2023. With the population density of 20 people per square kilometer. The country has a vast and tabbed agricultural potential with only 4% of it's land that is potentially arable currently being cultivated. The land is in this sensible asset for all to all the living beings out of particular importance to human being. It is a basic necessity for happy living of human being as well. A economics value and use are critical for human development as well. The utility of the land for economic value and livelihood are among the reason why land is land in the urban and rural areas is contested and cause of inter-communal conflict in South Sudan. Much of the land in South Sudan especially rural areas remain untapped and of a little economic use for benefit of the honest. This is due to limited knowledge of how land could be used for economic empowerment, reduced conflict for individual and community development across the country. Land security, whether in rural areas or urban areas is critically in the sense that the land owners can access, use and manage land and property without risk of dispossession. Or habitual changes to the land to their land use. This is where land policy, land and land legal instruments are important in regulating subsistence and economic use in the country. The big question we are answering today is what legal instruments such as legal policy and land apt say about economic usage of land in the country. But before that, let us ourselves, why is land such an invaluable asset for us across the country? And have last to answer these questions is one Honorable Robert Lado, who is the chairperson of South Sudan Land Commission here in South Sudan. Welcome to Radio, Maria Honorable Robert. Thank you, thank you, thank you to Priyesh. We are also joined by Dr. Mir, Danielle Assistant Professor at the University of Cuba with the background on resources, national resources. And welcome to the Roundtable Honorable, sorry, Dr. Mir. Yes, thank you very much, Dr. Yatch. We are also joined by Mark Hoor, Thomas Akyoth, who is a freelance researcher and a PhD candidate in Agriculture from University of South Africa. Welcome, Mark Hoor, Thomas. Thank you, Dr. Yatch. Yeah, well, a big question that we are asking, I know we have Honorable who is in charge of land commission in South Sudan. He has all the knowledge with legal instruments that regulate land usage in South Sudan. But let me begin with Dr. Tanyok. Why is land such an invaluable asset to human being across the country? I know the question of land if we are to talk across the region is the biggest problem that bring communities, neighboring communities to look into local head, investors into local head with the owners, original owners. So why is land such an important asset to human being? Yeah, thank you very much, Dr. Yatch. And for having me today in Radio, Maria, to talk on the land issues and economic aligning to it. One of the things that we need to know, that land is the major factor of production. And you know very well that the factors of productions are four. When you lease them, land is the leading one. You need a land before you have a human capital. There are three of them. That means the land, the lever, and then to promote you. First of all, with this, if you want to exploit the land, that means you have to have the two, which means the human capital. When you have the human resource, then now you will put the land into effective. And then a land will be used and it will be exploited. And then after the land is now exploited by using the lever as a factor, then you will now have the entrepreneurship. The investment will come in. So the land becomes very vital asset because it is the factor of production. And if you don't own the land, it means the economic viability of that country becomes very minimal. And so you need to exploit the land in order to get the resources that are actually associated to land. For example, agriculture production is associated to land. And so if you want to have a food that is sustainable and that is providing the needs for the people, then you have to have a land that is there available for the production to take place in order for you to encourage investment in terms of entrepreneurship. And second, land is also very important because people have to have the ownership so that they have a place and a space, what they call themselves, that they belong to. And so when you see all these communal violence coming in is because of the land encroachment to each other. People compete for the resources because all the resources we have are exploited through the land. And so if anybody is not having a land, it means you don't have the resource. And so land becomes a viable source of production that we have. Okay. Thank you so much, Dr. Nyok. In a nutshell, you are saying to begin a business of livelihood, you have to own a land. So land becomes a critical aspect of human existence. And of course, land is the space where we live on. And so if you don't own a space, then you are quite poor. Let me come to, I'm reserving Honorable Robert here to tell us more about the legal instrument. What do they say about land usage in the country? But let me come to the only agriculturalist in the panel. Dr. I mean, Dr. with a few years here, he will be Dr. Makur. Can you tell us why is land important to human beings? From a business perspective, Dr. Nyok stole us. But why is it important to living beings? Where do we get our food from? That's what I'm driving at. Makur? Thank you, Dr. Yaj, for the question. It's actually a very important question. And to pick it up from your question, land, as Dr. Nyok had just explained, is indeed a very important asset to every human being for the economic use and livelihood purposes, land becomes very important. Looking at the socioeconomic sectors and the ecosystem services that land provides to human, that's where the importance of land comes in, because in terms of ecosystem services, land actually provides the conducive environment for agricultural production, not only agricultural production, livestock production, and all the other economic aspects are actually acquired through effective utilization of land. These socioeconomic sectors that benefit from the land usage are really many. And this includes not only the food systems sector, it also covers a wide range of sectors, economic sectors, education in terms of, you know, physical premises, and all the other infrastructure that are of value to our economic uses. So in a nutshell, land actually provides quite a number of services for economic use for, you know, the physical and aesthetic uses, not only in economic aspects, it's also valuable in terms of aesthetic uses. In advanced countries, you find that the tourism sector also benefit from, you know, sites, ecosystem services and the social economic sectors. Yeah, thank you very much, Makur. You are saying that for a human being or an animal to leave, he or it's must get its food or his food or her food from the land. This makes land very important asset to us. Now, having land from the two panel members explaining to us the economic use and subsistence use of the land, let's return to where we are, that is South Sudan. Honorable Commissioner, a half percent of South Sudan land commission, Honorable Robert, what do legal instruments, such as land policy and land acts, say, about economic use of land in the country, first? Oh, thank you, Yaj and the panel. In fact, as they have mentioned, my colleagues in the panel, that land is what we live in and on. In terms of, you know, whether we look at the flora and the fauna, the solid minerals, the resources, wildlife and so forth. Legally speaking, these things, we can say, they have got gifted. But how would they be managed? Even the torch in the village is unwritten law that there is a customer of managing the torches. So these resources, unless there is a legal framework or a practice, how they are actually being used, disposed and owned, then there will be chaos. That's why in our land regime and legal dispensation, we have the land act. We have the land policy. We have the investment act. All the laws that we have, most of them actually deal with land, even accountability. You account for what you have used. What have we used? It's either petroleum, it's either the resources we have, it's either the taxes we tax on properties and so forth. Ever so many that we get. Yes. The land controls three-quarters of our life, or even more. So once these properties have to be secured, we always say, you know, food security and security of life are limp. No hand should be broken, no life should be lost, and nobody should go hungry. How do you do this? It's only by regulation, by coming out with laws how to make use of these. Otherwise, anarchy will be prevalent. Yeah. Now, having learned this and having answered this, what ways can land be legally owned, used and disposed in South Sudan? Everybody has liberty to own property. We have in our laws, you know, equality before law, whether male, female, rich and poor. The right to own property in Article 28 of the Constitution, you have the right to own and possess property. How do you own this property? You acquire it legally, either by buying, by inheritance, or by gift, or by working hard, like you cultivate in order to have property, to have crops and get money. So everybody can acquire this property. How do you secure this property? You secure this property when you have a title deed to it. A property is never used unless you have a title deed to it. We know in our law and regime, land is classified into three. When we say community land, community land, there is no legal document. But it is a land that is perpetually owned by a group of people, collectively in a certain clan, and a certain, you know, group of people in the village. What is the country saying? For community use. For community use. I cannot now go to my village that, you know, my father moved to the town, and I'm no more interested to stay in the village. Where is my chair? I want to sell it. No. You have the right to use it there and on. You cannot dispose it off. Unless that property is registered with a title deed, that's why you can use it as collateral. You can dispose it off. But otherwise, it is collectively and perpetually owned. And when you get the title deed, it changes from being a communal land to a personal land. Personal land. It becomes a private land. Do, do, do, do, do. Oh, it's a custodian of communal land, according to the law. Communion land is collectively owned. When we say this is a chief, it's not the one in charge of land. Even in the Cholo kingdom, you know, the, the, the, the rest is a custodian of the land of the Cholo. Yeah. It doesn't belong to him. So he takes decision collectively with his elders, with his panel, which is a group of people or a bunch of people that take decision on behalf of the family. We, we get surprised when we hear chiefs selling land to foreigners. This is the point that I wanted to do. You preempted what I wanted to say. I mean, you were now, every tribe has got a chief in you. Not for, you know, disposing cases are betraying, you know, conflict. My own tribe, we are here about 75 miles. We have a chief here. What is the basic role is to sell land. Land? Yeah. Whose land is that? The Barre land. And where it is, Barre land, which is communal? Not, not, not tribal. But we have our acquire. How does your chief acquire land to sell in, in Cuba? It stays, you know, in the absence of a law and order, you know, criminals operate properly. Don't we have laws and order? We have law, but you know, the application of law and actually the, the, the agents, you know, that see law to be taken into consideration. With, Cuba, now it's a public land, public land because now we have title deed, you know, the old instance of public, you know, land. Within this public land, we have private because you have a title deed to your plot and me and so forth. But as you move outside, which is supposed to be a community land, and the community is not there, some people come. They occupy that area and they start selling it by using tokens, by, you know, saying this is land. You cannot even, you know, because you want to live, and the government is not seen actually taking control of all this. And by the way, it's not Juba, it's everywhere in South Sudan. Juba becomes, you know, a focal point because the value of land is one of the highest in the world. In the world? In the world. Top of the year you get a land 40 by 30, 700,000 dollars, some even go to 1 million. Even in America, you can't get cyclone. This is because absence of setting, you know, the vacuum in the law, the land valuation, taxes. And all this was a free market. When you allow free market and even here in Juba, a shop on this side and this side, they have different prices. Nobody controls them. Okay, horrible. I know let dwell on this issue very much because I know this is where much interaction will come in later. The communal land, are they designated? And if they are designated, do we see them around towns? Take, for example, Juba, before becoming city, before becoming town, it was owned by Barry. According to Professor Buran, there is Juba in McGill, and you can correct me, or Juba in Navari. So, Juba in Navari is the land that the Barry, they're meant to them. But Juba in McGill, I don't know the problem. Juba in McGill, for the government. So, that could be the land that was given to the government. So, Juba in Navari remains with the Barry people, at their own land. Do we have legal designation of this land that are owned by a community? Take, for example, whether in a will, whether in Turid, or Yambio, or Waow, or Malakal. Are communal land designated? And if they are designated, why do other communities encroach and come and sell? Are they not protected by law? Yeah, you see, we are from a British colonial administration. Initially, they used to have crown land, that under... And then you have native land for us, community, they would call us natives. Okay? And then there is what is called private land. This is the classification they have. Juba, as I speak now, Juba, monarchy, and Qatar. This is mainland Juba. Yeah. As you extend Luri and those sides... Gudele. Gudele, they are under another administration, another county. But before that, these were actual community land. Yes. But as being acquired now, Gudele and all their under Luri, Luri is now a county. It becomes a public land. And beyond that, there is land that in the villages outside the jurisdiction. Like those days, they say the monarchy is up to Cobra Habova. Beyond that, that is Luri. This is how it is being demarcated. Okay. And there are land that is... You know, in South Sudan, there is no land that is not being owned by a community. Exactly. Yeah, the swamps. The community will not be physically there, but it is known to be under that community. And the government should always negotiate with the community to acquire more land because the population increases. That's why you say there is land grabbing, there is no land grabbing. And people are in need of land. As you said, now the population of South Sudan is 12.3 million. What is the population of Yuba? What is the annual increase? The increment of population in Yuba? You have to know that the population increases. And when there is flooding, the people of Yumle come here, even Turkak and the group of Yuba. Yum seekers too. Yes, Yum seekers. So you have to take this into consideration. The army gets transferred. Now I get surprised when the barracks is being demarcated. And this is what is called Yuba. And in the individually owned. Yes. If a soldier is transferred from a wheel to Yuba, well, believe it. If you want him to grab land, he is supposed to live in the barracks. Why do you demarcate these barracks? You give Robert and give V.H. who are not actually soldiers? Yes, yes. You give them plots there. And those days, if a soldier is transferred from Tori to Yuba, the Turkul that I have here and I am going to Maridi, we just negotiate as chain give me something because I am transferred. I give you this too. And what you are buying is Turkul, not a land or a way Turkul stands. Yes, not a land. And that land is actually public land under the jurisdiction of the army. Now Bob, which is those days the auxiliary police. Now you see so many investors having shops on the road. Where will the policemen stay? See, all these things in the absence of application of law and actually seeing entry that law is applied, then like what they say when the cops are away, they might be playing. They can play their matches. Now, Honorable, does the communal land that is designated as a county become publicly land automatically, according to the law? Yes, not all the land, but the towns that are sports. Like now you say I am from Laiya. Laiya town becomes a public land. And my village is located. It is not the market. It is a community land. But there is a very small sport there. Because in Laiya, these are all descendants of soldiers of Kailarin cliff, where we live now, a very small portion of the public land. They are where the school is. So it is actually a criteria of designating it as a public land and community land. It's where the establishment is. A police station, for example in Nabago, the area where the police station is, the pyam head quarters, that becomes a public land. But beyond that, that is community. The government should negotiate, because the pyam expands, population-wise, and institution-wise. Thank you so much for making this clarification, Honorable Robert Lado. Jim is, how can land, having land, what the law says about the land ownership and the land usage in South Dan? How can this urban land and rural land be tanned for economic and subsistence livelihood? Thank you, Dr. Eich and Honorable Robert for the clarification. The only way such land can be tanned into economic use is through, you know, in South Dan, as Honorable, I just put it, the application of law. And given the fact that our system, we see the structures, the government structures are still weak, it's the government that takes the lead in one classifying the land into a land that can be used for production. And as the land is being classified, it comes back to further nitty-gritty, like in the Minister of Akasha, for instance. Now we have the Minister of Akasha actually mapped out about seven ecological zones in South Sudan. And out of the seven ecological zones, we also have 11 livelihood zones. And those zones are already designated for specific purposes in terms of production. And if the system is actually functioning in terms of security and infrastructure, road infrastructure, connectivity and accessibility to those locations where production can occur. And now supported with the, you know, effective extension service delivery through the ministry line ministries, that's where our local farmers can be able to engage in production, surplus production in those areas. And now supply, apart from the subsistence, you know, benefits, they'll also be able to generate some income and feed into the national economy. Now our challenge, the biggest challenge here is we have vast land as it has been reported. We have vast land, and this vast land in South Sudan is under about 4% of the land that is actually under US. About 4%. And there are also parts of the land that if the government is able to provide an enabling environment, that 4% can actually increase. And if it increases, it means expanding a production. It means actually more food and most families that are at the moment below the poverty line, the likelihood that they can be able to pull up and cross the poverty line. And to make it happen is through a policy, you know, regulatory framework. It is through strengthening of our extension service delivery. It is through creating a conducive environment for our producers to be able to actually produce. And at the same time, enabling access to markets. And for starting that environment, it is the only way we can be able to make effective use of our land. Sort of that will still be struggling with issues of, you know, persistent food insecurity. In other words, the enhancement of land for larger use, larger scale use for economic use or subsistence use need to be regulated and they need to be initiated by the government. Yes. You know, when the government provides policies that control, you know, like you find that most of our lands like in the lowland areas are flooded. Look at the areas of Gungli and Yunti. In most cases, most of the year, they get flooded. And you find that the farmers, most of them, actually abundant those flooded lands. And, you know, there's like massive displacement in terms of livestock and human beings. And those lands, they are rendered useless. I mean, they are in less use, actually. But if there's a way of reclaiming those areas, it can be turned into productive areas. That can, yeah. And then again, those areas, you know, it can, at the same time, also reduce the issues. You know, when conflict arises between, you know, the farming communities, the cattle keepers and all this, is because when the climate induce, you know, factors comes in, displacement comes in, and migration comes in. Farmers and cattle keepers finding themselves, classed in a very small spot where conflict can now start. And if we have a way of reclaiming those lands and provide adequate security for farmers to invest in production, it can be another important way of handling. Now, coming from agriculture background, Makur, and they say, I mean, water is life. And so having sufficient water is having sufficient life. How can we attend these, what is seen to be, cause what is seen to be misfortune in terms of flooding in low land areas? How can we attend these areas into economic use or urban, major, subsistence use? Well, we can, you know, what I can say here is, again, it comes back to the functioning system. In such places that are low land, that gets light, and at some points you find that we experience some prolonged driespray drought in those areas. The only way we can be able to turn it into productive use, you know, if this government can go to map out those areas, and come up with the projects that can have reservoirs, water reservoirs that can really collect that water. And that water that is collected in those reservoirs is strategic points. You call it aphids, those aphids. If we have real big aphids that can collect that water during the rainy season and during the flood season, it can reduce actually the overflow. And at the same time, coming to the dry season, the reservoirs can act as a source of water, you know, for example, for less use for human consumption as well. And we can have a year-round production. We can supply our markets, local market, instead of importing from Uganda, from Kenya, from where our own farmers can be able to produce their own food throughout the year. And that will actually answer the question of, you know, persistent food insecurity. Makur, your PhD research dissertation deals with climate change adaptation strategies, and understand you have just submitted your thesis for defense. What strategies and your research area is South Sudan, what strategies have you come up with in your local community in lowland areas can benefit from? Yeah, some of the strategies that I can talk of, in fact, our farmers, local farmers, have all along been using applying some strategies unknowingly. Either intentionally or unintentionally, in that some of these strategies are here with us. And only that we have not really realized that we are really applying some climate change adaptation strategies. In other words, you can even call it what are, in other words, you can even call it climate smart and practical practices. And some of these practices, if you look at the farming systems in South Sudan, most of our communities, they are agro-pastoral communities. And that co-firming, text delete, compliment it by agro-pastoral, I mean, by pastoralism, by lifestyle keeping. And that during different seasons, you find, like during the rainy season, most farmers, they tend to engage in farming. And during the season, which is the dry season, these farmers who have cattle, they also move along with their cattle inside your pastures and water. So that alone, that kind of transhuman practice is one of the adaptation strategies. When it comes to also diversification of farm activities, apart from co-firming, there are also other businesses that offer the off-farm technologies that particular farmer engaging. It's one of the strategies that they use either intentionally or unintentionally. So it's also one of the strategies. And other strategies includes, you know, when it comes even to the farming systems, the crop production systems, you know, it narrows down actually to the cropping systems. What is it? In your studies, do you see possibility of changing the seeds into adaptable seeds, you know, traditional seed that we have goes for six months, half a year, three months and so forth? Is it in the proper to adopt a device, the farmers across the country, especially farmers, to adopt seeds that have long span of production, I mean, yielding and harvesting? Yeah, when it comes to the seed systems, actually FAO and other agencies together with the Minister of Akasha have been engaged in actual seed systems assessment in different parts of the country. And in my own research, what I realize is that our local landresses, in this case we call it landresses, the local seeds, they are more adaptable to our ecological environment. They are more adaptable and they are more tolerant in terms, you know, when it comes to climate variability, you know, with frequent changes coming into prolonged drought, you find that the crops, once we have planted, before they have established the drought coming, that affects also the performance, the crop performance. And at some point, you find that when the ground, for example, is pegging, is the belief in pots, or when the sogam is about, actually, I mean, to put on grain, the flat stomach, to watch the way everything. So our local landresses are more adaptable, only that it takes longer periods for it to reach maturity. In this case, you know, in advanced countries look at even East Africa here, we have the improved varieties that actually are short term maturing, and at the same time, adaptable to whatever ecological zones that they are designed. So we can adapt this to this situation. It's possible. Thank you so much. Dr. Meer, let's talk about the resources that are found on the land. Having defined land as critical aspect of human life, there are other resources that we find on land, and so they are attributable to land, and the usage is also attributable to land, and they can be used for economic reason, and even for developmental reason. What are these having studied? I know much of your studies outside the country, but you have written much earlier to the country, and you know there are areas that have specific resources that can be used for, for, for, for, for. So, so what, what, what is specialization can regions specialize in order to, to adopt to environment, I mean climate change, use the resources that are found on that particular land, and that could be different from equatoria to burgazal and apanite. So what natural resources can we, do we need to tap into, so that we can also enhance our agriculture, enhance our development and so forth. Yeah, thank you very much. The question of land is a value, and when people talk about the land, it means it's the survival and the livelihood of peoples around that regions, or in that particular locality. If we look at what Robert was saying before about the legal framework to own the land, and the way the land it is being used in our country. We look at the regulations that are in place, we have the act, and what does the act say that the act gives everybody a right, as it is actually classified as community land and others, before we talk about the natural resources. One of the things that we are seeing that that is what we call a ruler to have into migrations, where most of the peoples who are living in the rural areas are coming into towns, and when they come into town, then they have to have a space. And that become a bit very difficult if the land is not being regulated and it is given to be a public land so that the government take charge of all the resources or of what is supposed to be given to them. So if we look at the way our country has a vast land that is only to say 4% of the land is being used, which means that 4% that is being used, we are talking about the resources that are available to be exploited in that region. For example, let's look at the region of Apennales. The region of Apennales is capable of producing a lot of foods to this country. Look at the parts where we have ranked agricultural scheme. It has been exploited before and sauce sedans has not become a country. And yet today we are also seeing it is also being used, and I think the government is not the one taking responsibility. It is individual. It is individual. Which means that particular land now is being owned by the individual and the peoples who are actually the owner of the land, call it the community land. So they have to rent it to other people who are interested in agricultural farming. If you look at the other natural resources like the oil, you ask a lot of your economists, they will talk about all these issues to do with the natural resources, how they can be exploited. Oil actually supplied 98% of our living come from oil. And is the oil resources being used effectively in order to support the other skinned, such as agriculture, such as other investment. And if you have the natural resource that is available that is supposed to be exploited in order to get other infrastructures, then you need to put certain things in place. For example, my colleague Makur talked about it before, the lack of infrastructures. For example, now if you are to produce a lot of foods in the other region like Apennale, for example, and you don't have the road network to take it into the market, then it becomes very difficult for you to actually access that kind of market globally or maybe in the regions. So those kinds of challenges, if we have the infrastructures associated to any production that is available, then it becomes very easy for us to leave actually beyond the means that we are going to improve such an economic aspect of our country. And so if we are looking at the way how rural development resources that are actually under the rural development areas, so it is better that there's the complication associated to what we call instability in those areas need to be stabilized. For example, you go to Eastern Equatoria where we have a vast lot of goals. If that goal is being exploited, if it is being exploited, how is it going to support the social and economic development of our regions and the regions of Eastern Equatoria and South Sudan? So we need to leverage a market that we can reach our site and within, which means the government need to regulate how our resources are supposed to be utilized and how our resources are supposed to be actually sell out either by companies or by owners in that particular. So we need not to actually say that oil is the only resource that we should have, but we need to look into other areas. For example, you go to the regions of Equatoria. There are agricultural productions can survive, can do very well in these regions. For example, you go to Western Equatoria where we have a lot of manga and the other maybe fruits that can actually be turned into something that is tangible and can bring in the resources. And so the questions of land becoming the main productions is very important because it is the land that we have the resources we are having. For example, my colleague talked about the issue of tourism. If you go to the jungle where we have a vast lot of land where we have the natural where we have the wildlife. This can be turned into maybe a tourism. Equatorism can encourage it, can bring in something that actually our country can be in. All what we are saying that the resources, if you have the resources and you don't know how you can use them, it becomes very difficult. So what is it that we are lacking? We are lacking the political will that can stabilize our country. And when our country is in a stable situation, then everybody who is having the capability to produce something will have the access to the market, will have the access to create infrastructure that can be of good use. And we can support everything like the education, the building of road, the telecommunications can be financially funded within our country. And I am sure 100% our country can become the food basket and become the role model to the other regions. The only problem we have is the political will that the security that is affecting everybody in all the regions is the one that is causing the problem. Now let me bring in Honorable Robert. Honorable Robert, Dr. Myar, talk of natural resources that are also found on our land or under our land. And he mentioned aspects of elements of gold and oil beside agricultural products. To what extent do South Dhanis own or collectively South Dhanis or individual South Dhanis own these national minerals? Of course in other countries go to other countries anything that is blow your to a certain level that belongs to you. So, is gold that is being mined uranium that is expected to be somewhere else in northern Western Baral Gizal and other minerals within the country? Are they being exploited as individual products or they are being exploited like oil, the way oil is considered. Oil is what is engineering and even giving us our wages salaries we are being paid from from civil servant across the country are being fed from many oil not only that. But mineral, other minerals are their own according to the law. Thank you very much. The world sharing agreement that is the springboard where all these things are tackled. It says all subterranean resources is owned by the state or by the government or subterranean resources. Subterranean it means six meters down the ground is owned by the state. In my video give the discover oil or discover gold or uranium the government has the right to own it. The committee is given a small share for what is called corporate social responsibility. Now the gold the oil is owned even in the wildlife. If we say now boomer the land of boomer is owned by the model but the wildlife is owned by the government because the wildlife is a government property. If we say the community owns the wildlife why do we stop poaching we could be eating meat throughout and don't finish it. But the government in all protects it takes it the land belongs to the community but all the resources there is owned. Coming back to the resources the government will actually be in charge of the subterranean resources below the ground six meters. There is something what is called the surface minerals. If you travel to Naruz as you walk you see on the ground something glittering stones you collect. The government will not be watching who is collecting and who is not collecting. So anything above six meters. Above this is surface minerals the government is not in charge you collect as you want but below six meters where you dig. If you dig one meter still you know because you can dig inside your your fence nobody will know. But down six meters is the government is in charge. That's why you are here in Wunderuba there is gold. Sometimes you know in Cobeta there is gold. The government is in charge of the subterranean resources. It's gold in Wunderuba and lorry. There is also a talk of gold in lorry. I have never gone there and in the Cobota area the mining activities that are ongoing. Are they above or below six meters? It is mixed. Surface minerals you will collect. But you know as we say if the government is not there I think below six meters. And I think nobody is in charge and I collect the gold and export. That's why the government is to be very watchful. The surface they will not be in control but below that people go below even like Wunderuba. They dig and you hear sometimes you know there are some holes that are crumbling on people. It's not being reported. Even the query people say you know there is query. You think that they are collecting stones for construction. But they are taking place. They are digging nobody knows. So in other words there is much that goes without government notice. Noticing. And that can, that develop individually. And sometimes you know as they say the big elephant in the room. I would be working for the government and also doing the same business. If I tell you now in parts of Sudan and now it is coming here there is a machine that detects gold. Many individuals have it. They individually own. It's not being followed we know what is happening. There is one machine that you can buy for $15,000. The best is about $18,000. To detect, to tell you where the gold is. And you bring your people they dig and you export you take to the Tokyo and it goes across. There are reports one time the minister of mineral was saying we know gold is being smuggled from Colorado across the border in very big quantities. So these are the things that you know sometimes we need to take care of our economy. And coming back like the oil which has misled as they say is the curse of the mineral rich. You know the diet disease. Yeah. Everybody knows about it. When the oil we all rush to the oil. We advise the government that first of all take care of our own projects and agricultural schemes. I will rise factory. Mangala sugar cane factory. Marlotte. The chute factor of Toinge. The agro-industrial complex of Anzara. The tick. Now the tick because we did not make use of it. The rebels are collecting the ticks. Exporting. Some people come from across even from our villages there. You just get some Indians with the machine. The clear hundreds of tick trees. And they go across the border. So we are supposed to take care of our sources but we went to the oil. Now the oil got depleted. It is coming to an end. We are broke and the oil is normal. We are pumping in old bits. We are only getting our sellers. And we are barely using 4% of our horrible land. Okay. Let me return to Dr. Mir. Now having identified these minerals. And how do we empower? What advice can you give stakeholders? The government which is supposed to be regulating you. And you said it rightly. And in locals also in order to empower the economic sector. If these minerals are identified, exploited as you said. And it is pumped back to the economy and support agriculture. Which should be the main life line of our country. Which is not happening. So what advice do you give to the government in charge? What advice do you give to the policy makers so that they can enhance the production? Yes. Thank you very much. I think on the policy side. The advice that I can actually provide as from the way I think is that. First of all, you need to account. You need to create what we call a transparency and a social accountability. Where the government and the local community are considered to be the stakeholders of whatever the resource that is happening. The reason why government can take in charge is because government provides the law and order. And you know when you have any resource, it becomes a source of conflict. And so you need somebody to become the police. And not only becoming the police, when you become the police, it means you have to have a law and a policy on how this resource can be exploited and be used. And so my advice is that people need to, the government need to create a policy that give equal cheer. If we say that 3% belong to a community where a natural resource is, then that 3% should be given to that community. And try to do what we call corporate social responsibility. Provide the infrastructure, deliver the services that you need. For example, provide education facility, provide the health facility, build the roads. You will see that is what we call the credibility. And people will be very happy. And this will be a ways you are going to minimize the conflict across the nation. And you will have a stable nation. All right. Thank you so much, Dr. Mick. Thank you very much to my panel and let go for a break. And when we come back, we shall pick up from where we are living now. To all our listeners across the country and beyond, you are listening to Radim Raya Roundtable with me, Yaj Gran. And in the studio, we have Robert Lado, who is the chairperson of South Sudan Land Commission. We have Dr. Meir, assistant professor at the University of Cuba. And we have Maakur Ghemes, who is a freelance researcher and PhD candidate in agriculture from University of South Africa. Stay tuned for the next session of this discussion. [Music] The Roundtable. Welcome back from the break and you are listening to Radim Raya Roundtable with me, Yaj Gran. And in the studio, we have Honorable Robert Lado, who is the chairperson of South Sudan Land Commission. We have Dr. Meir Denjok, assistant professor at the University of Cuba. Then we have Maakur Ghemes, who is a freelance researcher and a PhD candidate in agriculture from the University of South Africa. And all along we are discussing the economic use of land in South Sudan. And before we went for a break where Dr. Meir was highlighting on the ways the government needed to take charge of natural resources as well as land in order to engineer economic development in the country. And that has to be done by policies according to Dr. Meir Denjok. Now, let me turn to a critical aspect of this discussion before we allow our listeners to enter Yaku in the form of questions with the numbers that we read shortly, Honorable Robert. There is inherent status across the country and particularly in Juba City. Land leasing is a much desired thing that ever land on in Juba, whether legally owned or grab land or aspire to lease land to foreign investor. And yet the law and need to be corrected if as a lawyer, the land act does not give free holding of land in South Sudan. There is no free holding of land in South Sudan as far as my limited research can tell me. How is this possible? Given the fact that you don't own land, you cannot own land. There is no land that is owned in South Sudan now and that is what is meant by free holding. But then you have the audacity to go outside and call investors to come and lease to 100 years, 99 to 25 years to whatever years for business purposes. And yet that land does not belong to you in a nutshell. There is no one who owns land other than the community land as per your discussion before. How is this happening and how can we address this issue, Honorable Robert? Okay, thank you, Dr. Yaj. The law talks about land lease divided into three. We have short, medium and long. In the British common law in South Sudan and Africa, most of the countries, the longest lease is 99 years. This talk of 99, 66 and 33. It could be less than that. They title this that we have here in Jupyter, Marakar, War, Namely. We were harpoon. These are leases, subject for renewal. And it is the government, their leases lend to me. To me, for public land. Public land. Public land. It is given to you all lease. Why is it given on lease? It is given on lease so that after some years, an area, for example, of little theory, Juba from childhood. Robert, this area, Robert, before I, Galawa, that was supposed to be an area for the workers of forestry. This area was a reserved forest. Don't pay. And that's why it is called Galabat. Galabat. And now, they are given leases. If they are given leases, it is near the airport. The government has got the right to tell them that this place is very strategic. The same way they did in Jaime Malakar a long time. That if you are able to build a concrete building with iron sheet, we will move you to Qatar. Those who are able, they build concrete. That's why there is Jaime Malakar. Now, Galabat, they cannot keep the houses in the same way. They are given lease. Why are we not giving free hold? If it is giving free hold, it is yours forever. Yes. Nobody talks about it. Right. If you give now Galabat free hold, somebody has a tukun. He is unable to do it. You cannot tell him he will all move. He said, "Why do I move?" He said, "Free hold, give it to me. Why did you deprive me of this right?" That's why in the countries that have free hold, Kenya is moving to a free hold. Yes. Uganda in the classification, they have community called customary land. And the public land, private land, free hold, in Uganda there is free hold. Because if you build a house in Kampala or maybe India, it is yours forever. And there is a specification of a house that you can build. Not the makeshift one where you put bamboo here and there and patch. No. You have to build a concrete house. So it is free hold, it is yours forever. And they have what is called the milo. Milo comes from the same word milo. Okay. In Uganda, because of the pronunciation, milo is only in Bhagandha Kingdom. Areas which are under Bhagandha Kingdom in Uganda. Milo is one square man who is for the family. This is the area that is demarcated for you. As you are saying now, we are having visas. And we are subleasing it to foreigners. To foreigners. This one is subleasing. Yeah. If the lease is for 25 years and you have already stayed for 15 years. You are left with 10 years. Yes. You are subleasing it for 15 years. That's the look-home that we have in our legal system. We are going to have in the old Sudan, we are going to have what is called visa law. This law will specify how many periods that it should have. And if you are giving a house for investment, now you are going to save in Arabic. It's just smart to go with the same mark. People who are not known. Yeah. It's really the same mark. So I am giving my life for the same mark. The same mark for the same years. They are paying peanuts. So we are going to have a lease law. Who will lease and what time of land is supposed to be leased? Well, we came. People want money. Some lease, they are property for 3,000. So that is, which was by then $1,500. Yes. Now, 3,000 cannot buy even a quarter of meat. Yeah. Of quarter of kilo. Yeah. But now, we have negotiated. We have told people even now, so that you feel free negotiated. The contracts. For 18 years, you are getting 3,000. What will you do? What is the rationale for interruption? What is the rationale of leasing a land to citizen? Why would it be and not a free holding? Because Yach is not going to move away from South Sudan. Even if I move away, my children will have tried to own my land and so many descendants that are coming back. So why is it? What is the rationale of leasing a land? You know, we are not having a free hold at the moment. As I've said, for example, I gave. Yes, I've got what I have. Now, at La Bara was 4th class. Now it is being recommended to 3rd class. For a free hold, you cannot do that. Because it's free, as you have said. It's yours forever and for your children. Nobody will question it. But, gradually, when we have now people building with this specification, there are people now in the building, in residential areas, they lease or they rent it for a garage, which is supposed to be resident. Some even, you know, bars discuss inside towns without getting the approval of the town council. But, once the system of, and we have, you know, laws in place, the leases, if you want to build, you must get a specification from the town council. Why you cannot build a plot of 20 by 20? You cannot fill it with buildings only. There must be an empty space, a place for, you know, garden, a small one for packing your car and all. So, free hold will come later on. Now it's South Africa, Kenya, Egypt, and maybe quite devoid, because I don't know the Francophones, all in the region. They have free hold. Free hold, then you can actually do whatever you can do. We are moving towards that direction. First, we'll have the lease law. Where we control the type of leases that we have. First class, second class, and third class. And where we have even, you cannot construct without the approval of the government. Investors can invest, we can demarcate according to our law, we can designate a certain area to be an economic zone for investment. That is a lot. But, and now in Cuba, what we see around our investors going as far as Budele, and residential areas are being used for businesses. And not only that, what definition do we give to an investor? Who is an investor? What is investment? What is foreign investment actually? Because if a foreigner comes and lease a land, you lease a land to a foreigner for investment is allowed by the government and so forth. And a foreigner comes with a makeshift, built a makeshift in order to make money. So is it an investment of any, what regulation do we need to put in place in order to regulate this kind of investment? Yeah, we will actually come with proper laws to deal first of all with this law. Number two, even the investment needs to be reviewed. What is investment? Is it by selling tea and mandas on the way as you move? Chapati. Some will have a very small to cool, they build it and they sell alcohol. Gennifer, Abufar, Umphar, where they kill our children. You know, we need real to control this. You cannot control this without putting law in order. But there are certain things that, you know, even if there is no specific law, you can even invoke other provisions. Yes. Somebody who is selling alcohol, for example, and a foreigner. That's public health issue? Yes, public health issue. It's coming to kill, it's not coming to invest. So there must be a criterion who is a foreign investor. How minimum money should a foreigner be allowed to come to South Sudan if he has to come and do business? You cannot bring somebody who comes and brings water for sewage or distributing water and you say it's an investor. And these are all gaps that, you know, we live. If we want to control, it becomes difficult. We are unable to control the price of water. It took them until they went on strike. Why do you allow this to happen when you're supposed to collect, you know, collect pipes? Jack has studied. We're very angry at you, but you could drink from, you know, from the top. What is happening? Somebody was collecting a jug that, you know, from Qatar. You just put your hand with the cup, you take water from the river. Foreigners will drive from Qatar, go around Qatar, come and sell it. Sell it. Very expensive. You are soldered. What is the minimum wage? The minimum wage now is not equivalent to a drum of water. Oh, water. Exactly. Okay. To all our listeners across the country and beyond, you will be able to call us on 0.0912067879 or 0.912068101 or 0.091206. 0.067929. Mr. Makur, let me ask this last question before I take telephone calls and tend to session of interaction. How best do you advise the land users across the country, particularly those in rural areas to protect land from the effects of climate change? Having talked before of climate-induced suffering across the country that we see around, people are suffering. Being displaced here and there, lack of food because of drought and too much flooding across the country. So how best do you advise the uses across the country on how to protect the land? Because land is the only thing that we have and we can live behind. And we cannot be selfish enough to misuse land for other generation after us to come and suffer. Makur? Thank you, Dr. Yaj. Just coming back to that question once again, as I explained earlier, it all comes back to the policy framework. And if we can look at the way things are moving now in the country, there's a missing link. One of the missing links is, in fact, the research component is actually very weak in our system. Because now we have a lot of data that is sitting in the shelves that's not being processed. And if we have an enabling environment and funding for either a government-led research or private sector-led research and that data is processed, it gives us the required information that we can be able to use to formulate effective policies. And such policies in our line ministries, we have policies that are actually there that are not being enacted. So we need these policies actually implemented. And if these policies are implemented, we will be able to strengthen the capacities of our local citizens who are engaged in production in various locations. And such policies are actually aligned with certain acts. We have the NAPAS, the National Adaptation Program of Action, by the Minister of Environment and Forestry. We have also other acts within the Minister of Action that can really lead us to those effective ways that we can use to protect our environment, protect our soils, and then again, they regulate their framework when it comes into effect. I've been moving, since June, I've been moving across the country as part of the Crop Harvest Assessment Mission. And my observation, if you look at Eastern Equatorial, for instance, we have really a problem of invasive wheat. Apart from the issues of pest, migratory bites. In Western Equatorial, we also have the issue of wheat in water and parts of lakes, the issue of straggle wheat, and also other wheat species. Some of these invasive wheat species, and even pest, for instance, the issue of polemium that became an issue three years ago. It is through the borders, you know, if we don't have a system that regulates the incoming planting materials, if you look at Kenya, they have what they call Kenya plant health inspectorate. At every entry point, be it at the airport, the airport, you know, if in the migratory department, they have that unit. That is correct. Everything that comes in, whether you come as food or what it has been inspected. And it is through those, you know, interpoints that invasive wheat seeds comes in. The infested seeds are coming in. And the wheat species comes in. Even the pest, these notorious pests, like even the grain bora or salmon. So some of these notorious pests, they come in. And if you don't have a chuck in place, by the time we are coming to realize it will be too late, too late for us. So it's good for us to act. Actually, a little bit. Thank you. Makur, there are other traditional practices that have been in place in time immemorial. In South Sudan, they take, for example, banning forests, grass. Of course, giving lush numbers of animals that, of course, effect on the land and environment. Particularly, the banning of forests is what we say about this. Does it have an ecological benefit to the use of land on individuals and the people? Or it contributes very much into enhancing effects of climate change? Well, banning can be both beneficial and detrimental. It may have negative consequences, and at the same time, positive in a way. Looking at the negative aspects of banning, if you look at the people, there is a big problem now global warming. Because of the greenhouse gas emission. And this greenhouse gas emission, in form of carbon dioxide concentration, in form of sulphur, in form of methane gas. In fact, such practices, like banning of the forests, contribute to this. Okay. And it actually exacerbates the issue of global warming. Thank you so much. I would like to ask you a question to panel members here in the studio discussing the economic use of the land. Hello, I am Raya. Good morning. Good morning, David. Let me welcome your guest in the studio. Yeah, there is David Magog. Yeah, this is David Magog. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, again, the land has been abused, and the law of the country is being abused. Who is to be blamed here? Is it the community or the people in charge? Because the land of the community, people are now shifting from the public land to the land of community without even informing the community. That is what is so called land grabbing. The time when Cuba was chosen to be a capital city of South Sudan. What was the agreement between the people of South Sudan and the Bari community of Cuba? Now, everybody who is getting a plot in Cuba is being called as the land grabbing. Who is given land and who is grabbing the land? It is not differentiated. This is number one. Number two is about the business. The land now in Cuba is being used for business. And the poor people have right even to say in Cuba. Because not only we were informed, a referendum time that we will be the first class that is in the country. Now in the country, they have classes. Some who want to have land in Cuba, they don't have. Unless you have so many, you have corrupted within the government or somewhere. Now, do you think that the other South Sudan is going to have right to have plot in Cuba? Definitely. Thank you so much, David Magog. Let's receive another call. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello? Hello, Victoria? Yeah, that man. Yeah, please just ask me. I just ask you can ask your question very quickly. Thank you so much. I appreciate our best reading this video. My first question is what are the legalities of one person to acquire a land in the Republic of South Sudan? Why do I say like this? Sometimes you might be having a document. Another person will appear also with other legal documents saying that this land is long for me. And if you are not a big person in the government, you still the plan should be kept away in your hand. What should the law say whenever you have your own legal document that are defending you and sometimes they are being violated while you are having your own document? Thank you. My last question is what should be the regulation of the land for all of us to be having equal opportunity to be given a land in the Republic of South Sudan? Because some of us have been discriminated. Sometimes you will not even have a right to have a land while you are not even a foreman in this country. What should be the possibilities of acquiring land in South Sudan? Thank you so much. That's Isaac Mann. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. 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Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. Hello, Radym Raya. For example, now, if our country is stable enough, where we are open up to development, as he said before, if we are interested into what we call agriculture, agriculture productions, in which we are looking into what we call commercialization of our products, not only in South Sudan, but overseas. So land become productive in a way that we need to look into the way of how can we use technology when what we call integrated skill development for farmers and those who people who are interested in large-scale farming. So sustainability become a key priority because sustainability cover both the environmental effect and the effectiveness of using the resources in order to benefit the welfare of the present generations and the next generations that is and proceed to come. And so what I can say is that our people need to be very mindful and there are and I have seen that a lot of work that are actually done by human experience, a lot of engineers that have actually done it and I have witnessed with well vision when I used to work in Iraq before. Well vision used to train people on farming, in an idea that they want to do what we call diversification of farming, where people cannot only dwell into what we call a subsistence farming just only to hand something to leave. That could be one area in which people should be very interested, but the role of the government, which is the third filler, the second filler that I would say, that the role of government becomes paramount. That why the role of government becomes paramount, there are two things. One, government has the responsibility to regulate the lens on how the land can be used. Second, government has the responsibility to provide security because people cannot operate in an area where we are having issue to do with communal violence and a lot of things because most of the time become a source of conflict. And the third is that since we are seeing that the population is growing and we have what we call ruler to urban migration, there has to be a policy on what we call urbanization. Urban planning has to be put in place. Of course a term like Juba, I have not seen one of it and that's why you are seeing we have the issue of land grabbing. If there was urban plan, the issue of land grabbing might have been regulated because there is already a policy and a standard of building that country or a state. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Let me give one of you, each one of you, 30 seconds to say last remarks before we wind up our discussion in the next two minutes. Honorable Robert. Thank you, Yaj, for this opportunity. In fact, we are very happy that we are moving towards the right direction. I know the issues of land are very numerous. Now the land policy is before the parliament. Once it is a key problem, get it in too low or past, we are going to draft what is called community land law. What is community land? And others, land valuation, taxation on land, we are going to compile all these laws so that we solve the problems of land. People move to Juba and this town because of service, security and employment. Now if the government devolve, taking these powers or creating job opportunities, that as I've said, they will rise scheme, enough people will go and work in the countryside so that we are not creating city-states, but we are actually building a country and now we hope we will walk towards that direction. And somebody has said, I hope with all these things, the salaries will be regular and people will be smiling. Thank you for remembering that question. Thank you. Makur, in 30 seconds. Thank you. Once again, I think what I can say is that South Sudan, we are really blessed. We have a potential because we have enough cultural sources within and around us and we hope that things will improve if we put our house together. Thank you so much, Dr. No. Yes, thank you very much, Dr. Yaj for hosting us today. I think in my opinion, this is a very productive discussion on the issue of land and the economic use of it. What I will say is that it is very important that people need to be aware about the use of land because land is very important as a factor of production. Because if you don't own a land, then you don't have a place to live. And you cannot produce. You cannot produce. Thank you so much. Thank you so much to all my panel members in this studio discussing the economic use of land. And thank you to all our listeners across the country and beyond. And you have been listening to Rady Mariah Roundtable with me, Yaj Garang. And in this studio, we have Robert Ladoz, a person of South Sudan Land Commission. We have Dr. Meir Assistant Professor at the University of Juba and we have Makur Gemis, a free land researcher and a PhD candidate at the University of South Africa. Thank you very much. Stay tuned for the next program or decision. Yes. the next program. the next program. the next program.