Simon W Speaking to the Barcelona "Easy Does It, But Do It" meeting on December 13, 2023
The Daily Reprieve
Barcelona Meeting - Simon W
[Music] Hello and welcome to the daily reprieve, where we provide essays, speaker meetings, workshops, and conferences in podcast format. We are an ad-free podcast. If you enjoy listening, please help us be self-supporting by going to Donate.thewreprieve.com and drop a dollar or two into the virtual basket. Please consider donating monthly by clicking the Donate monthly button. However, one-time donations are always welcome. Just click the Donate now button. Now, without further ado, this episode of The Daily Reprieve. [Music] Today, 13 December, 2023, we're very happy to have with us Simon W from North Carolina, and he will be sharing on the topic of recovery for life. So, you're now on Simon. You have 25 minutes to share and I'll give you that five-minute warning as we discussed. So, be very welcome. Okay, great. Thanks for having me, everyone. It's always a pleasure and a gift to be able to share, you know. The God's blessed me with. During times when I'm sharing, I'm also reminded of how little I know. I can start with a prayer, even though we already did a prayer. I want to do the third step prayer. God, I offer myself to thee to build with me and to do with me as thou will. relieve me of the bondage of self, but I may better do thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help, of thy power, thy love, and thy way of life. May I do thy will always. Amen. Yeah, I think whenever I share, I certainly want to try as best I can to make sure that God's in the forefront. So, the title is "Recovery for Life." And when Nancy and I were talking, and Nancy, our speaker-seeker, thanks, Nancy. I had a great discussion with her. I was going to think about a topic and I thought, oh, no, let's not put it off. Let's just come up with something now. So, "Recovery for Life." And to me, that means that has two meanings. So, one is that recovery is ongoing. When I first got into recovery, I thought to myself, oh, there's a book. Oh, yeah, I'll read the book and I'll figure this out. And initially, it kind of amazed me when I got into recovering. People kept showing up and coming back. I was thinking, you got the book, right? Just figure this out. And also, I remember another recovery program also. I got into that program first. And it's more than that. It's about, because recovery isn't just about the disease. I thought it was about, oh, I have to stop acting out. You know, I'm looking at porn. I shouldn't be doing that. I'm having sex with a woman that I'm engaged to, but not married. So, I'm not married, so I shouldn't be having sex with her. And I'm doing that. So, I need to stop these behaviors. And I couldn't seem to stop. I could stay stopped for, I don't know, maybe a week at most. And that was like a whole week, right? That year never felt so long, right? And I couldn't stay stopped. And it was the fellowship of others that really helped when I learned about this program. And then I thought, well, I just need to get a handle on these behaviors and stop these behaviors because I feel bad. I feel shame. I've acted in my faith tradition. Here, I'm doing stuff that's contrary to that. And I shouldn't be doing that. And then when I actually got a little bit of sobriety, I felt really good about myself. I was like, wow, I'm living up to these values that I have. I have these high values, but I wasn't living them. And I felt like, wow, I'm starting to live my values. And I felt really good about that. And I had gotten three months of sobriety, which was a lot for me. That was huge. And I remember the day that I had my three months of sobriety. And normally, I was pretty dedicated to doing the stuff I need to do in the morning, my prayer, reading my recovery literature, and all that stuff. But I was really busy that day. And I thought to myself, well, I don't quite have time for it. But I'll be at a meeting this evening, this afternoon. So I'll be fine. And then I ended up acting out before the meeting. I never thought that would happen. I mean, if I have a meeting today, surely I'm not going to act out before the meeting, right? Surely I'm not going to do that. And I did. And I went, and I started out to go to that meeting that day. And God just has a way of speaking to me. And I knew that if I didn't go to the meeting that day, I might not ever go back. It's one of those things where you're really deciding, am I going to be sober or am I not going to be sober? And I was decided, should I go to the meeting? I really don't want to go because if I go there and I have to talk about the fact that I lost my sobriety, I'm going to have all this shame. And I really wrestled with that. But there was like this knowing, like God just speaking to me saying, if you don't go today, you might not ever go back. So it's one of those pivotal points where it's like a decision that changes the trajectory of your life. And I went there and I was nervous all the way there. But I knew I had to be there. And we're going around the meeting, checking in. We're checking in. And the guy before me, he said, Oh gosh, I don't know what to say guys. I lost my sobriety. I thought well, thank God. Thank God he's not sober. Thank God he's not sober. Wow. Thank you. Thank you for losing your sobriety. I wanted to say out loud. Thank you for losing your sobriety because that gave me the courage to be honest. And I was able to say, Hey, I don't have any sobriety. I lost my sobriety today. I didn't think it would happen. Recovery for life. What it means for me is that every day I have to take it seriously. That's the lesson I got from that. Every single day, I have to take my recovery seriously. I thought, well, I'm going to be at a meeting today. If I don't do the reading, it's not a big deal. If I don't do all of my prayer time with God, it's not a big deal. If I don't talk to God throughout the day, it's not a big deal. I'll be at a meeting today. Right? I'll get the boost that I need. But it's not like that. I have to do what I need to do every day. And it's like a partnership. I do my part. God does his part. On that particular day, I thought to myself, I don't have to do my part. God's going to do his part by, you know, in the, when I'm in the meeting, God's going to speak to me and give me this power to stay sober. Recovery for life means that every day, I have to take it seriously for the rest of my life. Recovery for the rest of my life is not like, Oh, I can, I can build up enough sobriety so that I can coast and I have to do anything. It's not like that. It's not like going downhill and gravity is going to take me. You know, if gravity is taking me, I'm going to end up someplace bad. The recovery for life means that every day I have to be conscious of it. Every day I have to remember that. Yeah, God will do his part, but I have to do my part too. It really is a partnership. The other thing that this concept of recovery for life is that anything I put before my recovery, I'm going to end up losing. I used to think that if I had the right relationship, then I really don't have to worry about my sobriety so much, right? Because with the right relationship, I'll get this. I have these needs met and I won't have to stay sober. In fact, my sponsor, and this is the only time he ever told me this, my sponsor told me, he said, I remember saying something to him once and he says, Simon, that is the sickest thing you've ever said. And I was shocked because I told him some pretty sick stuff, okay? But what I told him is, I said, you know, I just need to find somebody, I just need to find somebody, a woman who's a real sex addict who was really out there. And then for Maniac was the word I used, who was really out there. He said, Simon, it's the sickest thing you ever said. And that puzzled me because I said some pretty sick stuff, okay? And I guess what he saw, he really saw the truth. What he saw was that I was saying, I don't want to have to work for my recovery anymore. And if I'm around people who are sicker than me, then I won't have to acknowledge the fact that I'm still sick because I can look down on her and say, look how sick you are. You should do something about yourself, all right? Now let me objectify you because that's what my sickness wants to do. Recovery for life means that I can't take shortcuts. That would have been a shortcut, right? Marrying somebody sicker than me. Then I would have despised her. I would have told her how sick she was. And I would have stayed in my sickness. And we'd have been sick together. Recovery for life also about wanting recovery. And I learned this lesson from somebody in our program early on. And I wish I could take credit for this. But recovery for life also means accepting the fact that I'm a lustaholic. Because early on, there was this part of me that was kind of like, yeah, I'm here. I'm trying to get better, but I'm not really as sick as these other guys, right? I don't have to stay here all these years like they do. I'll stay here for a little while and I'll get better than I'll leave because they're really messed up. I'm not that messed up. I'm a good guy. I'm a good guy. Well, good guys can be sex addicts too. Okay. I'll never forget this. This was a lesson from God. There was someone at the meeting and the person came and described all this stuff. And he said something really powerful. And this was just like 25 years ago. Okay. And I'll never forget it. He said, you know, I know I need to be here, but I don't want to be here. And I didn't think anything about it. And I did something else. And I, and I, and I, we have the white books and he didn't have the money. And so I just, I bought a white book and gave it to him. Okay. But that stayed with me. He said, I know I need this program, but I don't, he said, I don't want this program. And I didn't think anything about it because surely he's going to be back because that guy was in pain. I mean, the stuff he'd been through, he didn't come back. And a lesson for me is that for me, the program is not for those who need it, because he said he needed it, right? And I would say for me, it's not even for those who want it, the programs for people who work it. And when I fully accepted the fact that, hey, I'm a lustaholic, I'm a sex addict, I'm addicted to porn, I'm in this relationship having sex with women, I'm not married to, I got problems. So for me, it's not people who need it. And it's not for people who want it. It's for people who work it. Because if I work the program, then that means that I'm really putting actions behind what I say. So recovery for life also, also means that if I want to have a life, I have to have recovery. And when I say have a life, I mean, not just existing, but if I want to know what joy is, if I want to know what fulfillment is, if I want to know what trust is, I have to work my program. I have to work my program for willing to do that, if I want to have a real life. So for example, recently my wife went out of town to get a break for me and the kids. And the joy is that she was able to go out of town and get a break for me and the kids. So here's what she didn't do. Because of recovery, what she didn't do is she didn't call me to see if I was acting out. She didn't have to call and check on me. She didn't have to lock all the computers or take all the computers away. She didn't have to confiscate my phone or make sure that special software on it to try to keep me from acting out. Those are things she didn't have to do. She didn't have to call the kids and say, is dad in a locked room, maybe watching something he shouldn't be watching. She didn't have to do that. That's because of recovery. So recovery for life means if I really want to have a life, I got to work my program. And it also means that I can be trusted, which means I have to be trustworthy. So she doesn't have to worry about those types of things. So what we have is a lot of problems. We have our regular people problems. Like, you know, are we going to make the mortgage? That's more like a regular person problem. Okay, who's going to take which kid to the appointment or to the soccer practice this afternoon? That's regular person problem. Okay, me having a mistress and being in a motel, that's not a regular person problem. Okay, that's not a regular person problem. And thank God, we don't have to deal with that. And that's because of recovery. Recovery for life means I don't fit the recovery into my life. The recovery is my life. And the other stuff I fit around it because without without God and my recovery and this fellowship, I'm going to lose all that anyway, right? I'm going to lose all that anyway, because I'd be acting out at work. And of course, they didn't are firing me eventually, right? If I'm acting out at home, eventually my wife's going to get tired of it. And she's going to say, I'm not going to put up with this anymore. She's going to leave. And being the good mom, she's it. She's going to take her kids, right? She's going to take the kids. It allows me to be a safe person around other people. It allows me to use the gifts that God's given me. I wouldn't be wouldn't be really sad to have a special gift to share with the world, but you can't share that with the world because you're on some kind of registry, right, for being a sex offender or something. It's like, wow, not only can I get closer to God, I can have a life that I would dream about. I can have regular people problems. If I take my medicine, if I take my medicine, I can have recovery for life, but that also means I can have a life. And if I do the stuff that I need to do, then the rest of the world won't have to know. They won't have to know. So it's kind of like the reminds me of the that I had a friend of mine who had diabetes. And she was determined not to not let anybody know. A few people knew me and some other friends knew. This is years ago. And what happened is, because she refused to accept it, she ended up passing out in the hallway. Okay. And that was a powerful lesson for me because if I don't work my program, everybody's going to know. And that's not everybody's business, right? That's something that God and I have have to work on. And for me, having recovery for life also means that I have to not feel that I'm deprived, because there are times, especially early on, when I would feel like, why can't I watch that show? Or the other people are watching the show. Why can't I watch that show, right? Or when I'm out, why can't I, why can't I just look around like everybody else? Why do I have to do this, right? Because I'm afraid I'll lust. Why can't I just look around? Why can't I do that? Other people can do that. Why can't I do that? If there's a good movie out that has a very popular, has a good radio, why can't I see it? Other people can see it. Why can't I? It's like, why don't I have the freedom just do what I want to do? So recovery for life means it means freedom. It means freedom. So what I mean by freedom is this. And I heard this, I read this in a book. It's not conference approved. So I won't get the name of the book, but a really powerful phrase. And it was that freedom isn't the ability to do what I want to do. It's the power to do what I ought to do. So freedom isn't the ability to do what I want to do, but the power to do what I ought to do. So if I do what I want to do, yeah, I might look at porn. I might, you know, be having sex with somebody I haven't not married to. I might be doing things like that might be goofing off at work. If I want to do that, but that has consequences, right? If I'm not honest at work, I could be reprimanded or lose my job. If I'm dishonest with my wife, I could impact the marriage or maybe even lose the marriage depending upon the level of dishonesty. But if I work with my program, I have the power to do what I ought to do, which means talking to God throughout the day, asking for guidance like we learned about in the third step and the 11th step, talk with my wife and communicating with her and seeing because she's a godly woman and God uses her to speak to me and ignoring that would be stupid. It would just be plain stupid. So for me, that concept of freedom, it's not the ability to do what I want to do with the power to do what I ought to do. So now I don't have to deal with the consequences of lying and cheating and things like that. I can have recovery for life. I can have a life. I can go where I need to go and do what I need to do. If I have a legitimate reason to be in a particular place, I don't have to worry. I don't have to have secrets these days. So, and that's freedom. I don't have to worry about people seeing me go here or go there because I'm not going places where I shouldn't be. One of the things that really used to bother me when I when I first before I got sober, I'd be at the pouring shop and I was always afraid that my pastor was going to walk in there. I don't know why I thought if I'm acting out and I'm struggling, maybe he is too. I don't know why I thought that, but I don't have to worry about that because I'm not doing stuff that I shouldn't be doing. And just that freedom is so powerful. There are things I don't have to worry about because I have recovery for life. I'm on this path. And it's just what I am and who I am and what I do. It's not this thing where I have to begrudge it like, "Oh gosh, I got to go to a meeting. Oh gosh, I got to call people and check in." After COVID, there are millions of people calling people just to check in for their own mental health. Not even people who are addicts necessarily, but just to talk and share about things. So, I'm just really thankful for that. I'm able to be, gosh, maybe I'm not a great husband, but my goodness, at least I'm present. My wife knows that I'm committed to her. She knows that I respect her. She knows that I cherish her. I mean, she would also say I'm cheap, but I'm not cheating on her, okay? She knows where I am. I don't have a hidden agenda. I don't have a hidden schedule. I don't have to hide anything. I don't have a double life. My kids think I'm a pretty good dad. Five minutes, Simon. Okay, thank you. I'm not perfect, but they don't have to worry about me having a secret family someplace. You know, it's nice to be able to laugh about this stuff because before recovery, there's stuff I couldn't laugh about, okay? Because that was me. And yeah, so I do like the time after all, recovery for life. I think I'll probably just end there. If there are questions, maybe we can maybe get into some of those. Thanks for your service, Daniel. And yeah, thank you so much for your for your share, Federico, sexaholic. I really enjoyed actually the just the light-hearted nature of your share, even though, I mean, it's obviously deep and touching on heavy stuff, but in a light-hearted, humorous way as well. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. And I really like what you said about freedom, because this is kind of a conclusion that I've come to as well, which, and my experience, which is that this is a program that isn't about, oh, stay shut. God knows no matter what, whatever. It's a program of freedom. You know, sobriety and recovery give me freedom and a lot of freedom, which is amazing. And it's, for me, it's the biggest miracle of this of this program. So thank you for sharing that. And thanks again. Thanks. Thanks, Federico. And Simon, I don't know if you wanted to comment. There was no question. Yeah, there's no question. Okay, thanks. Yeah, there's no question there. But, you know, I like as much as I can, I like to like lean towards the positive. Life has enough gloom and doom. And I think that I am a person who is kind of predisposed to, you know, being down. So I try to work aggressively towards the other side towards being more positive. And yeah, I like that concept of freedom, because one of the things that I hear a lot of, and when I was in the program, I felt it a lot too, but what is it deprivation? Why can't I do what I want to? I feel deprived. It's my right to look at this. It's my right to do this. It's my right to do that. And those rights were killing me. So thinking of freedom in a different way has been really helpful. So I guess that's my comment. Well, thank you. Thanks Simon. And make sure you're muted, unless you're speaking, please. Mohammed, you're next up. Thank you. I'm Mohammed, I'm really thankful for this speaker. And I just, I have two questions. I just wanted you to let you know that I'm new to the program. It's only been three months. And in your opinion, what's the most important tools that I have to do every day, no matter how busy I am. That's the first question. Because I feel like there's so many tools and trying to like, in the beginning to stick with the most useful ones. Second one is, I feel like now, since I'm like trying to be sober, it's easier to lost when I'm in the streets and in uni. And I just have a question, does that like decrease over time? Or stay the same? And I have to keep putting these types in order to just non-prolars. Well, that's it. Thank you. Okay. Thanks for asking the, thanks for the questions. Am I paying the most important tools to use daily? It would be the following. Checking in with a sponsor daily. There's nothing like having accountability from somebody and having, and I'll just, I'll just be blunt about this, okay? It's my firm belief that if you haven't been sober for at least a year, you can't be trusted to think for yourself. Don't even try it. You can't be trusted to think for yourself. And nobody who, if you haven't been sober for a year, you're not qualified to think, okay? I'll just just put it like that, okay? And I don't, I don't mean you. I mean anybody. I mean me included. If I lose my sobriety for a solid year, I need to have somebody else telling me what to do, okay? It's just the truth. So one of the things we know about alcoholism and about other types of drugs that you ingest, it takes a full year of sobriety for you to get your mind back so that the effects of alcohol no longer impact your thinking, okay? Now that's with alcohol, right? Which is a physical drug. Certainly with a drug that we carry around with us, you know, lust, how we manufacture it, certainly we need at least that long as well. So having a sponsor there, you know, like when if I start thinking, you know, you know, the quickest way to get to work is go down that main street. Now there's a strip club there, but it will be stupid to go around the other way. Well, my sponsor would say, no, it's stupid to take that way that takes you past there, okay? So something having a sponsor and using a sponsor. So what that means is having a check-in format and with the check-in format, some very specific things. So not just checking in like how's the weather. The thing is, I have people use a specific format when they check in, okay? So the check-in is, here's my name, my name, sobriety date, the steps I've worked in the last 24 hours, because if you haven't worked a step in the last 24 hours and you haven't worked a step, okay? And challenges in the last 24 and victory are things to be thankful about. So really using a sponsor, I would say is certainly one tool. Another tool would be daily calls, the 90 and 90, I believe in daily meetings rather, 90 and 90, 90 meetings in 90 days. So go into the meetings, being there whether virtual or face-to-face. And even if you're in a place where you can't share, so if you're, if there are other people around and you can't talk to at least be able to listen, but when listening be fully present, it's not like, oh, I'm listening, but I'm also, you know, reading a book and I'm doing some other stuff and, oh yeah, I heard a little bit of the meeting. Okay, that sounded interesting. Okay, let me get back to what I'm doing. No, you know, focusing on that and looking for how other people are using the program. So not just listening, but listening with a goal in mind. So the goal might be, so if I'm struggling with something or struggling with frustration or being angry, then when I get on the meeting, kind of listen for that. How are people dealing with frustration? How are they dealing with being angry? If I'm dealing with your codependency with my wife, you know, feeling like, you know, like she's my mom and she needs to give me attention to make me feel better. If I'm dealing with that sort of thing and her approval, then kind of listening for that when I get on the meeting, kind of listening say, okay, is anybody else dealing with that? Okay, let me look for that. Because I think God will provide it. God knows what I need. If I'm willing to admit that and to be fully present, he'll provide it. Now I also have to say, I don't always do that. Okay, so that's what I'm in the meeting. So that's what I have in my meeting. I'm doing other things that may be helping my kids with homework if I have to. But yeah, being fully present. So those are those are two things I would say are are absolutely vital. And let's see. And I would also say some. I also say some, well, prayer and daily reading. Even if it's just a page out of out of the one of the books, right? Like the, whoa, okay upside down. Okay, it's blurred. Okay. All right, it's the real connection. Okay. Oh, okay, there it is, the real connection or the white book. So prayer, reading, but especially that sponsor and and being active in the meetings, because I prayed a lot when I was acting out. Okay, God, please take it away. And then I'd act out. Okay. So that's what I'd say about those things. And does less decrease over time, which is the second question. The short answer is yes. Everybody that I know who has long term sobriety has found that over time it does decrease. But I can't count on that, because I still have spikes. You know, there's some days are you have been sober for a good while, but there are days that I might hit a spike. And I can't assume that because I've been sober, I don't need to talk to God today. I can't assume that. Oh, you know, I've been sober for, you know, over 20 years. I don't really have to go to meetings. I still got to go to meetings. Okay. I still got to be at meetings. So I try to make it to at least three meetings a week. And when things are tough, I make it to a meeting every day. Okay. And sometimes I just feel distant from God and I make it to a meeting every day. So that that's my long winded answer to the to the two questions. Thanks for the question. Yeah, thanks for the question, Muhammad and Simon for your answers. Nancy, you're up. Yeah, hey, Simon. Thanks for sharing Nancy's economic. You know, the big book talks about the melancholy personality and somebody made a comment, you know, excited about recovery. Happy. I love, I love seeing your demeanor. I'm scribbling madly as you're talking. I want to remember the expression. It's not for those who need it, not for those who want it, but for those who work it. I really like what you said, not everyone needs to know. I really like that. I really like that you said, you don't have to feel deprived. The question I have is, can you talk about lust in marriage? There's not many folks who talk about that. How do you keep from? How do you know when you are lusting in marriage? Thank you. Okay, thanks, Nancy. Yeah, here's some. How do I know when I'm lusting in marriage? Let me write that down so I can stay focused on the question. How do I know when I'm lusting in marriage? How do you keep from lusting in marriage? Oh, okay. How to keep from lusting in marriage, but lusting in marriage. Okay, so how do I know when I'm lusting in marriage? Lusting is, for me, lusting is about taking and not about giving. And when I say taking, I'm not talking about, you know, like sexual salt or anything like that. What I'm talking about is the energy behind it. So when I'm lusting, the energy behind it is I'm feeling, I'm not feeling okay in my own skin. I want my wife to make me feel better by giving me affection. And I won't even say affection. I guess that giving me sex in some form because affection could be a hug. So I kind of want to be clear about that. And I'm focused on getting sex in some form, which is kind of like taking. I'm focused on me. And I'm not focused on her. I'm not focused on what she wants. And this may sound strange, but this is the best environment for like sexual fulfillment for me is the idea when I create the environment where she feels cherished. When she feels cherished, then the hugs and the affection, that stuff just comes. But I notice when I, if I, if it's almost like, it's almost like there's like there's a spiritual detective in the atmosphere at our house or something, okay? Like there's a spiritual detective and my wife is pretty good at detecting this too sometimes. It's kind of like if I'm extra nice, like, oh, let me get the dishes, honey. Oh, don't you worry about that. Let me take care of the trash. Oh, hey, don't lift a finger. Let me bring those grocery bags in. It's almost like she can tell if I'm doing that to be manipulative. And what would happen early on is I would do that stuff thinking, hey, well, surely there's going to be, surely there's going to be some sex, okay? Surely sex is going to happen because look what I'm doing, okay? And I'd be doing all this stuff. And then she said, oh, this is great. Let's spend some time together. And we're watching TV. And I'm thinking, okay, she needs to make her move because my sponsor told me not to initiate sex, okay, which is great advice. So I'm like, she needs to make her move, because, hey, I took the trash out. I did the dishes. I cleaned the kitchen. She needs to make her move because look at all I did. That's about manipulation. And what happened is she's kind of like, oh, let's sit down and watch TV. Or she might give me a hug. And I'm thinking, I didn't do all that for her. No, I didn't say that. Okay. But my mind, I'm thinking, I didn't do all that for her. I'm just going to get a hug. I wouldn't have done any of that. And what happened is I'd have these long dialogues in my head while she's asleep, because I'm still angry. So how do I know when there's lust when I'm angry? Because what happens is I have, I've made this contract that she never agreed to. The contract was, I'm going to do all these nice things. And then we're going to have sex. Okay, that's going to be my reward because I was a good boy. Okay, that's going to be my reward. And I would never tell her that. Okay. Because that would just seem dishonest, right? That would just seem so transactional. Hey, if I do the dishes, can we have sex? That just seems so transactional. You know, I'm a good husband. I wouldn't say that. So I'll take out the dishes. I would do the dishes. I take out the trash, do all this other stuff. And if I'm angry, then there's lust underneath. Because I'm saying, hey, because I did this, you're supposed to. And then she doesn't feel like she's a full partner. She feels like this is so transactional. You're supposed to be a husband. This is, you know, and she even told me that. This seems transactional. You're doing this and you're expecting that. I want to be close to you. I don't want this. So when I create the atmosphere, when I'm genuinely just treating her well, noticing her, appreciating the person that God made her to be, then that's not lust. That's me just, you know, enjoying time with my best friend, right? And then when that environment is there, she wants to hug me. She wants to kiss me. She wants to be close to me. Let's see. And how do I know when there's lust in marriage? And also, when I'm trying to wake her up in the middle of the night, and I hate to admit it, but I've done this, I'm awake and I'm like, you awake? And she's normal. I'm like, you awake? You awake? Huh? What? What? Oh, wait. And because I'm so sick, I think she's going to wake up and say, oh, I'm glad you woke me up for sex. Okay. She never does that. She never does that. Okay. Like, she's like, what? What? What? What? Do you need something? I said, Oh, no, but hey, you're awake. Wow. Just hope that she's going to say because I don't want to say, you know, I don't want to ask because then it's too obvious. So if I'm angry, if I wake her up, then that's less. How do I keep from keep less out of the marriage? The one thing I do is I don't initiate. Okay. So don't initiate. And, and when I am kind, I try to make sure my motives are right. And if I do a whole bunch of stuff and secretly expecting some kind of sexual, you know, remuneration, then that's my problem. And what I do is I call. I'll call somebody checking, yeah, I did all this stuff. And she went to sleep. I thought she was going to hug me and kiss me. She didn't do any of that. She didn't do any of that. And I'll make a call and my sponsor or where I'm talking to will say, well, that's not her job. You know, you're supposed to do that, you know. So how do I keep from doing that? By trying to be kind and trying to be authentic? Because if I was really authentic during those times, what I'd say is, what I say is, you know, I'd really like if you give me a lot of attention and affection and sex would be great. And here's what I'm willing to do. I'm willing to take out the trash and do this. And you know what she'd say to me? She'd say something like, it doesn't work like that. Okay. It doesn't work like that. I'm not that person. I'm your wife. I'm not some person you do a transaction with, because she said that. Okay. In far more blunt terms that I won't use here. Okay. So that's I guess that's the answer to the question. Well, I have a sub question there or a follow up. And you said, I don't initiate period. Is that your suggestion for people for sex analytics? Oh, great question. No, I wouldn't use that as a blanket suggestion because it because it could be tricky. So what we've learned over time, my wife and I've learned over time is that I don't initiate, but there are time. But yeah, this is what happened there. I don't initiate. But what happened is that she would tell me, I don't feel like I'm being pursued because as the woman, she says, I want to be pursued. I don't want to have to initiate all the time makes me feel like, you know, like I'm pursuing you. You should be pursuing me, you know. And so what I it makes her feel less ladylike. So what I do is she has clues that I can kind of pick up on after a while. So I don't initiate. But when I get that clue, then it's kind of like, you know, then she's open to be for a kiss or a hug and maybe it's some other stuff. So I don't have it as a blanket suggestion because sometimes in the sometimes in a marriage relationship, one spouse will feel will feel less attractive because they may feel like, Oh, he's not pursuing me. Therefore, I don't feel attractive and it can really impact the self esteem. So I wouldn't have that as a blanket statement, but probably a dialogue. Say, you know, you know, I'm a sexaholic. And if I have my way. So just to make go something like this, I'm a sexaholic. And if I have my weight, we'd have be having sex every day, okay? And I would initiate every day. And you'd probably get frustrated with me and you'd probably feel used, right? Because in my wife's share of this, I was like, you'd feel used because there was one, there was one period of time when I thought I could initiate and things were really bad after that. Okay. So during that one period of time, which might have been like a month or two during our, what, 22 years of marriage, and things were really bad then. So just having a dialogue, say, you know, you know, I don't want to initiate because I don't want to objectify you or treat you like less than the loving partner that you are. But I also don't want you to feel like, like I'm not interested or don't find you attractive. So how can we, what do we do about that kind of dialogue about it? And the hardest part, for me, when we have talks like that, we would have talks like that, the hardest part for me was just being really vulnerable and saying, you know, I'm afraid if I initiate, you will, that you might feel unattractive. I mean, if I initiate that you might feel used or objectified, but if I don't initiate, then you feel like you have to initiate and it puts pressure on you. So I wouldn't have it as a blanket statement. But in general, I think for my experience for most sexaholics, it's better to not initiate, but when in doubt, certainly have a dialogue. Yeah. Thanks very much for expounding in that. Thank you. Okay, sure. Thanks, Nancy, for the question and Simon, for the answer that I totally identify with in my marriage, for sure. The floor is still open. We have maybe 10 more minutes and I don't, Nancy, do we have any questions in the chat? Have you received any questions in the chat yet? I have a chat in a while. While we're waiting to see, someone else raised it. Oh, David G, you have a question? Yeah. Hey, David, sexaholic. It's great to be here. And that was just so helpful. I'm married sober coming up on four years and, you know, it is progressive victory over loss, just because I'm not cheating on my wife or masturbating to pornography or doing that stuff. That doesn't mean that lust isn't still there. So thank you so much. Those were very practical suggestions that I am going to use. I guess my question to you, did you find that recovery is progressive within your marriage? And did you come to different awarenesses as you stayed sober longer as opposed to when you first came in? Okay, different awarenesses as I stayed sober. What was the first part of that? Yeah, like, did you, in your marriage, when it comes to lust in your marriage, did you come to different awarenesses the longer you stayed sober around progressive victory over loss, meaning like it wasn't just about not, you know, acting out, right? It was about the progressive victory over loss part. And did you see, you know, obviously, did you see, you know, progressive victory over loss no longer you stayed sober and how did that manifest in your marriage? Okay. Yeah. Did I see progressive victory? Yes, yes, I did. And I still do it times. Yeah, because at times I feel like I'm at a plateau and it's like I need to have more time with God, because it's not just about the recovery, just about not acting out, it's really about my connection with God and my connection with people, with my wife and children and even other people just being able to be fully present. So yeah, different awarenesses, yes, because there were times that, well, yeah, in our marriage, one of the things that we do is my wife knows that she has just re-rated to tell me if I'm if I'm lusting, because there are times that she's she's caught me lusting. Okay. Now, yeah, there was a time about one time it stands out like maybe two years ago. Yeah, I guess it was about two years ago now. And but there was a time one time earlier on, and I remember we were at we've had a wedding or someplace or we were at something and and I didn't realize I was lusting. Okay. And apparently my eyes were following this young woman. Her wife is next to me. She said, she said, she said, you're lusting. And I said, I was just like stunned, like, hold on, was I? And I didn't realize that I was. Okay. It's like, apparently my eyes are just kind of following this person and my wife is over here and she's aware and she looks at me and she comes in from me. Hey, you're lusting. I said, Oh, am I? And I so badly wanted to lie. First of all, I didn't realize I was lusting. Okay. But I'm sure I was because she wouldn't have said it otherwise. The other thing is, if I wasn't lusting, where was my mind at? Then I was so taken aback. When she said, you were lusting, I'm like, was I what my mind was someplace, right? So I assumed I was lusting. And so she she calls me on that and she tells me about it. And when that happens, I apologize to her because it's disrespectful. Also, I usually even thank her for telling me because, you know, I don't want to lust less than something I want. So I thank her for telling me because I don't want to punish her. I don't want to be like, what's your problem? I wasn't lusting. She's not the bad guy. Okay. She's helping me. She's helping her and she's helping us. So she makes me more aware of that. So yeah, lustive. So yeah, it's kind of changed over time and I'm more aware of it. And also sometimes I become more aware of the nuances. Here's something that several years ago, here's something that I went through with lust. But what happened is, since I was really trying to guard against it, it would come up in other ways. Here's one of the ways it would come up. Like maybe I'd be picking up my kids from some place and maybe their other parents around, mostly moms, right? And here's what would happen. So it's a good thing I was kind of checking some of this in. It's kind of like, oh, like I'll see somebody from a distance. I was like, oh, oh, I think that's, I'll pick a name. I think that's Barbara. And then I'm looking like that. Oh, Barbara has a coat like that. I think that's Barbara. Yeah. Barbara's hair is like that. Yeah, I think that's Barbara. Oh, yeah, that's Barbara's. That's the outline of Barbara's shape. Yeah, I think that's probably Barbara over there in the distance, right? Now, I'm not lusting. At least I don't think I'm lusting. It's just like, oh, I think I recognize that person. And before, by the time I do all this analysis, oh, that her hair is like that. Yeah, the outline of her head is like that. The shape of her body is like that. Yeah, I think that's her. And I'm taking all this data. And what I realized is that's lust. Now, I didn't want to think there's just just analytical. I just think that somebody I recognize. Well, I can't afford to do that. Okay. That's one of the other things that came up when we talked about lust and how I noticed it over time. And the difference awareness is, I'm not sure I answered all the question because there were two questions, the differences in. So you knew you answered them. Thank you. Okay. All right. Thanks. Thank you. Okay. Thanks, David, for the question. Simon, for your answer. And we have time for probably just one more, I think. So Scott H, you're up. Thanks, Simon, for your share that I can relate so much to what's happening in your brain, particularly regarding your wife. My question was, it sounds like you're at a much better place than you were regarding navigating sex and lust in your marriage. I was wondering, like, how long it took you to get there? Obviously, you're 20 or so. But, like, did it suck for 10 years and then it started to get better? Did it suck for 19 and then it started to get better? That's kind of what I'm mapping. Okay. I don't know what I'm going to put on mapping. Okay. How long before it got better? Okay. Or just the progression of, like, how that happened? Okay. Okay. Okay. How it got better? One thing that's different in my story, I think, is that I was sober before I got married. Now, I had been engaged three times to three different women before I met my wife. But my wife didn't have the experience of me, you know, cheating on her and looking at porn and doing those types of things because I was sober before I met her. So she didn't have to deal with that. So I also wanted to acknowledge that because when you asked the question how long before it got better, if you're in a marriage and there's been infidelity and things like that, that changes things. Okay. Because then you have to deal with the fact that, you know, you've hurt this other person. She can't trust you. When she looks at you, she sees pain instead of love and joy. So that that changes the dynamic. So I guess I'll answer the question for those who are in that situation because most people are in that situation. Most of the people in our program, my experience is they're married and they're in the program because the spouse said, fix yourself or get out because I'm not putting up with it. So I'll answer the question from both perspectives. From the first perspective, for individuals like that, my perspective is you have to keep working the program. And when you hurt somebody, what they see is they see the, they see you as the person who hurt them, not the person who's supposed to be committed to them and love them. And it's like the, like the bathtub. Okay. When you, when you take a bath, you fill up the, you turn the fossil, you fill up the bathtub with water. Okay. And when there's a breach of trust, that plug comes out and all the water's gone. Okay. When that trust is broken, you don't get the luxury of turning on the faucet anymore. Your faucet privileges are gone. They don't exist anymore. When you want to fill up the tub, you have to do it one spoonful at a time. Right. You go, you get a spoon from the kitchen, you put a teaspoon of water in it, you go to the tub, you dump it in, go back to the kitchen and get a teaspoon of water, you dump it in. That teaspoon of water is attending meetings, staying sober, calling your sponsor, working the steps. And what happens is the other person you've hurt, they won't see any of that. They won't see all the great progress you're making. So you'll be sober a month and they'll be like, so what? You'll be sober six months. They'll be like, so what? You'll be sober a year. They'll be like, so what? I'm still hurt. I know all the pain you caused me. And you'll keep doing that and keep doing that and keep doing that. And what you'll notice is you'll notice, what? I put a thousand teaspoons in there. Look at all this work I'm doing. She doesn't appreciate me. What's her problem? And keep your mouth shut and just keep putting the teaspoon in. And then one day she'll say, one day she'll say something like, one day she'll say something like, oh, can you, can you go to the store and get such and such? And when you come back a little late than expected, she won't ask you if you went to see a prostitute. She won't ask you where you've been because she'll know over time, you know, he really can be trusted. So in terms of now, the other one for those who are maybe single and things of that nature, how you know it gets better when I'm less frustrated about life, when I'm less frustrated because other people can watch certain shows and I can't. If we're together in a group and everybody else is watching it. Wow, look at that sex scene. And I'm doing this and I'm not angry about having to do that. Then I know that I'm getting better. When I go to my meetings and I'm happy to be there instead of saying, well, I got to beat this me. I shouldn't be a sexaholic. This is the disgusting disease. I wish I was like an alcoholic because there's such shame associated with being a sexaholic when I accept the fact that I'm a less talk and, you know, this is my disease and I'm taking my medicine. When I have that perspective, I know I'm getting better. When I can, when I can, as it says in the book, when I can lift my head, look the world in the eye and stand free, then I know it's better. So I guess that's what I'd say. Thanks. Thanks Scott for the question and thank you Simon for the answer and we're out of time. I would like to thank you for listening to this episode of The Daily Reprieve, the best source for experience, strength, and hope for SA members. Please subscribe to this podcast to be alerted of new episodes. Please show your support by donating to The Daily Reprieve by going to donate.thedailyreprieve.com and choosing either monthly donations or a one-time donation by clicking donate now. 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