November 5, 2024 - Participants include:
Diane Gelon - DianeGelon.com
John Richardson - @ExpatriationLaw
Effective November 1, 2024 the State Department introduced a revised DS-4079 which appears to standardize the renunciation process around the world.
Initial information is here ...
https://citizenshipsolutions.ca/2024/11/05/department-of-states-introduces-new-renunciation-form-and-processes-effective-november-1-2024/
Today I explore these changes with Diane Gelon.
AI Description:
"In this episode, we welcome back Diane Gelon, a seasoned expatriation lawyer from London, UK, to discuss the newly introduced US DS-4079 expatriation form. With over 35 years of experience in the field, Diane shares her insights on the implications and changes brought by this new form, which aims to streamline the process of renouncing U.S. citizenship globally.
Diane and our host delve into the differences between the new form and its predecessor, highlighting its focus on intention and voluntariness in relinquishing citizenship. They explore the potential challenges and questions that may arise for individuals considering expatriation, including concerns about rights and privileges post-renunciation.
Tune in for an engaging conversation that touches on the evolving landscape of expatriation law and what the future holds for those looking to navigate this complex process."
Good morning. Today is November the 5th, 2024. And the most important event of the day is my discussion with London, UK based lawyer, Diane, who has been on my podcast before, but not for a while, and we are going to have a brief sort of initial impressions of the new USC S 4079 expatriation forum. Diane has been an expatriation lawyer for like a lot of years. Okay, I would call her one of the one of the deans of expatriation law in the world. So Diane, how are you? It's getting close to 35 years, I think, since I did my first first advising. As I said, I would make you one of the, you know, one of the founding old, it makes me old. And that's, well, it makes you one of the founding members of lawyers who will call it of expatriation law. Cool. Anyway, so what are you thinking of this? What do you think is going on? I love it when they come up with new forms. I've had a very quick look at it. In some ways, it's over simplifies and is rather straightforward. Rather different from the old form DS 4079, which was a request for determination. And now this is just a questionnaire on loss of nationality. I'm trying to figure out what that really means. In the UK, when you want to relinquish your citizenship and get a certificate of loss of nationality, they had actually, you didn't have to complete or no longer have to complete form this form DS 4079. Now it looks like what they're trying to do is make it mandatory to streamline or have more in place for all countries around the world, which were all extremely different. I would use the word standardized. It's clear. I mean, if you can believe what the form says, this is now the no pun intended the form of renunciation going forward. But it's interesting to me in that, I don't even know why they call it DS 4079, because it's completely unrelated to the previous form. I mean, you're right. I mean, this form is related only to expatriation, the previous one. Right. And what they've done is they seem to recognize the intention and voluntaryness of the key components and then try to explore what that means in the context of different kinds of relinquishments. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, I mean, the form could stop at merely taking an oath of renunciation, and then you don't have to fill out the other six pages or so. So at least they've put that, which I believe in the text of the law isn't oath of renunciation. The last, the last one of how you could show that you've renounced your citizenship. No, no, no, no, the renunciation of citizenship is the last one. And the former DS 4080, okay, which is incorporated into this new form was the oath of renunciation. That's the last question on that form was, yeah, so it's, you know, it's interesting they put it first and you don't have to fill out the rest of the form. If that's the way that you're announcing. I don't know. I see in some ways it seems straightforward, although I don't like the question about what rights and privileges you're already, you're already using relating to the citizenship that you currently hold up the United States. That's interesting. That's not. I find that a bit vague, because it will make, I think it will make people stop and think well wait a second. Can I still get my social security benefit. I think that will be the big question that people will ask, and will that stop when I renounce my citizenship. Well, you know, I haven't quite thought of it that way, but I think you're absolutely right, or, you know, to put it more generally. That's a question that will get people to think about what it will mean to not be a citizen. Right. Mm hmm. In other words, you know, we're all excited about getting out and putting in beacon. But what does the world look like when we're no longer citizens, I guess, right? Right. Although it doesn't say anything about having access to US consular services when you're abroad, which has always been a big deal that they've made of renouncing US citizenship. That's not on the list. That's right. That is interesting, isn't it? Mm hmm. So, you know, it's an interesting, it does give you a nice white space box, however, to add anything else you might think of. I can't imagine that I'm going to have clients who are going to want to list anything else. Well, of course, my wife said, everybody, you know, they used to ask, do you want them? They no longer asked you want to make a separate statement. They include the BS 4081, but they, they, they seem they modified it. They're no longer asking if you want to make a separate statement. I mean, I, I don't know what your thoughts on this have been over the years, but I thought that nothing good can come from making a separate statement. Okay. I've never had an over all of my years of doing this out of client who's made a separate statement. They all want to, and I all, and I know what all of them would say. Or most everybody would say there's a three letter word. It comes to mind starting with the word T and ending with the letter X, but nobody's certainly going to put that in writing. Right. Although it does ask why you want to. Well, that's, you know, that is probative intent, actually. Right. It just asks what factors. Yeah, you know, that's your decision. Yeah, that's probably what I'm intent and understanding, you know, what you're giving up. How about a really bold statement here, Diane. I want to get your reaction to this mind bold statement, which I'm partly I just want to make a bold statement to see your reaction but what it is, is that I think that for the first time we may see. Renunciations refused. I know you said that, and I'm, I'm trying to think whether I agree with that or not. I'm not so sure. I mean, yes, you know, you've got to put some information out there in writing that you haven't had to say before. And I do like, you know, I can see that, you know, it following some of the, some of the case law, whether you've been pressured by any person, or any circumstances that have led you to make this decision, you know, the old gun to the head cases and. Maybe even stomping on the American flag cases and. But I don't know if it will, I'm not convinced it will lead to refusals. What basis could they refuse only that you had a gun to your head, and you're not doing it of your own free will. Yeah, so I'm going to send you the background discussion on this that I saw. Right. And there are some questions about how much time you spend in the United States and that sort of stuff, right. Well, they don't ask that directly. They're saying how much time did you spend this address of a. Yes, question for the devil like you on property in the United States, right. Right. And they don't ask for how do you have to go back for 50 years. Yeah, I don't know. All right. Well, look, let's, let's wrap it up for now and pick this up a little later on as we get some more information. But thanks very much. And Diane can be reached out. Are you ready for Diane gallon.com D I A N E G E L N dot com? Not quite, but Diane at Diane gallon dot com. All right, Diane at Diane gallon dot com. All right. Well, thanks. We'll pick this up again. again. All right, John, thanks a lot.
