Marine conferences are a place where you can have a lot of fun. You can meet new people, you can meet old friends and colleagues, you can establish new collaborations. But it's also a place where it can be overwhelming. It can be intimidating for a lot of people, especially those who are introverts, and it could be a drain on your social battery. So when you do and prepare for a conference, that's usually a week long in a place that's far away. You know that you're going to have to rest up and you know you're going to have to go through all of those emotions when you go into a conference. But imagine not only doing one conference, but two conferences in a row where you have to do virtually the same thing in terms of interacting, mingling, doing presentations. It's a lot. So I was a little taken back when I heard a few people went to the International Marine Conservation Congress that happened in October earlier this month, as well as the European Elazobranch Society, doing it all together in a span of two weeks. Well, I was able to talk to one of the people who were able to do that. Dr. Isla Hodgson, she is not only a podcaster, but a fellow scientist, a conservationist. She works with the Save Our Seas Foundation, and she's here today to tell us how she got through two weeks of conferences, international conferences where she played a big role and had multiple plans and goals for each one of those conferences. So we're going to talk to Isla on this episode of the How to Project the Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about conferences because that is one of the places where I have to admit I flourish. I enjoy going to conferences. I haven't been to a conference in a long time because my full-time job is not really in the marine science and conservation world, although the podcasting can lend me to that. But I haven't been in a while, COVID and all these other things. It gets expensive sometimes. But when you do, and when people are able to go and be at a conference like the International Marine Conservation Congress or the European Alazabranic Association Conference, it is a whirlwind. It is one of those things where your adrenaline is keeping you through the entire week or however many days the conference is. You're mingling with people. You're sitting in on a number of different sessions that you have to plan out really quickly because some of them are going in parallel and you have to jump from session to session to session. There's a lot of thinking. There's a lot of collaboration and talking about projects or future collaborations and future projects. There's a lot of just discussion overall on the ethics, on the justice of marine conservation, and just overall how to practically do conservation. So it's a great place to meet old friends, make new friends, colleagues, so forth. But it can be intense. And when I heard that Ayla had been to two conferences, not just one, but two international conferences, pretty much over span of two weeks, I had to find out how she did it and what she was up to. And in this conversation, we not only talk about each of those conferences and what her role is and what her goals were for each of those conferences. We also talk about her role with Save Our Seas Foundation and her podcasting and how that all integrates with the conversations that happened at these conferences. So it's a great conversation. I hope you enjoyed it. Ayla is such an amazing person. So I hope you enjoyed as much as I did doing the interview. Enjoy. And here's the interview. Enjoy. And I will talk to you after. Hey Ayla, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about going to two conferences back to back? Hi, Andrew. Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. And I am not too sure. We've just discussed that I feel like my brain's kind of operating on a bit of a lag at the moment. So we'll see how this goes. But yeah, always ready to talk about the ocean marine conservation. Yeah, everything. Nice. I love it. I think it's, you know, it's always something when going to a conference is always exciting to go because you're seeing people that you haven't seen in a while. You get to see all your colleagues, your friends, you make friends there, you collaborations happen. But it definitely tugs on your, your, your sort of like in-person battery and emotional battery and just sort of social battery. And it's always a difficult thing to like, you know, continue on and to do one is one thing. That's like a week. And then to do another one right after. That's a feat I've never done before. I don't know if I'll ever be in a position to do that. But that's interesting. And I want it to have you want to talk about that. But before we get to all of that, Ayla, why don't you just let the audience know who you are and what you do? Sure thing. So I guess I can say I'll wear two, two main hats, if you like. So my first hat is I am a marine social scientist. So I work on the management and governance of marine protected areas. So a lot of human dimensions kind of stuff. I work a lot with fisheries, work a lot with government agencies, and try and understand how we can do things better, basically. So that's one hat. And then my other hat is I am science communicator for the Save Our Seas Foundation. So that involves a number of different things. Mainly I produce and host their podcast, Wilder Sharks. I hope I'm all right to promote another podcast on your podcast. Absolutely. But do a lot of other fun things as well. So I write a lot for the foundation pretty much any time they need any form of shark science communicated. That's me doing that. So yeah, so they're kind of my two main hats. So one is research and the other is basically get to talk about sharks relevant, which is super fun. I mean, you can't go wrong with that when we get to talk about sharks for a living. It's pretty fun. We've had you on the Beyond Jaws podcast, Dave and I. And so I'm going to link to in the show notes to that podcast. So everybody can get to know you a little bit more in your career because we went in depth in that career. And of course, we've done a lot of interviews with people from Save Our Seas. So those are all all linked to those in the show notes as well. So people can get to know Save Our Seas. One of the things that I realized from Save Our Seas last year, I went to the 20th anniversary when they had it in Fort Lauderdale. And it was like, you know, just celebrating Save Our Seas. And everybody that I talked to there said my project was kind of way out there and Save Our Seas funded it. And it was awesome. And it actually helped their career along. It helped launch their career. And I think that was that, you know, that you don't get to see that a lot with foundations. And I think Save Our Seas is one of those foundations that is just able to do that time after time. And they just take a chance on the person, on the project and see that it's necessary. But it's not, it may not be under the regular guidance of a lot of other, you know, granting foundations and so forth. So being able, like, James has an act, the team has a knack for picking out people and picking out projects that are that are really great. And and I love, you know, always talking about them because you guys do some great work, not only from a granting and funding perspective, but your science communication teams are is pretty cool too. So obviously you're one of them. A part of the team. It's amazing to be able to to get to get to have you on the podcast and talking about the podcast. Let's actually do that for a little bit because part of the science communication thing, and you know, you asked, is it okay to promote the podcast? I am always of the value of like, we need more podcasts. We need people to have different voices to speak up. We need to have people to go on different podcasts because you never know who's going to love the hosts, the subject matter, and we just need a diverse amount. And I think it's great. So why don't we just talk a little bit about the podcast? How did it all begin and what does it cover? So I'll say one thing first as well. Thank you so much for those kind words about the foundation. It's definitely something that I feel as well working for them. They're just such an awesome foundation to work for and an amazing team to be part of, you know, with a lot of people are quite surprised to find out we're a relatively small team. There's there's there's not that many of us, but very passionate and driven people. And one of the things the foundation prides itself on and is very important to us is like, like you said, is seeing the potential in people and especially supporting people in the early stages of their career. And speaking, we're going to go into these conferences later on, but one of the nicest things for me about going to these conferences is just seeing how many people's how many amazing people we have supported and helped to get started and that is one of the core elements of the podcast as well. So World of Sharks are formerly the whole tooth. We started out calling it the whole tooth and it actually started as a little YouTube series. So back in the day in 2019, I actually met our current CEO James Lee on a boat in the middle of the Hebrides looking for basket sharks. And that's how I got an introduction to the Save Our Sees Foundation, which is probably the most perfect introduction you could have. And then in 2020, when COVID hit and everybody was at home and there was a lot of, you know, parents trying to keep their children entertained and also children, you know, still trying to learn in incredibly difficult circumstances, the Save Our Sees Foundation thought it might be quite a cool idea to do a YouTube series where young people could actually send their questions about sharks into the foundation. And we would assign that to an expert or a professional in the field who could answer their question. And I was brought on as like the host of that. So I would answer some of the questions, but I would also provide a little link in between. And these videos are, they're still up on YouTube. They're so adorable. There's like kids from all over the world sending in these amazing questions. And then, you know, these kind of big name scientists and our amazing project leaders answering those questions. But we did about five episodes. And then James and I kind of came together and said, well, we actually think this would be really cool as a podcast. So people can send in the questions about sharks. And rather than it be answered, you know, in a small YouTube or a small video clip, we were aiming only to have the video clips, you know, to one minute. We actually have a whole, you know, 45 minutes to an hour where we kind of dive into this topic and kind of really go deep into it. And so that's how the podcast started. And it's kind of really evolved and grown over the years. We haven't quite reached our 100th episode, calling about relations to you. And Dave, we're reaching 100 episodes of Beyond Jaws. I think that was last week or two weeks ago. That was last week. Yeah. Huge achievement, amazing. But yeah, so so we're about we're coming up to our 70th episode. And yeah, we basically cover all different topics related to sharks. Our primary aim is to make shark science and shark conservation as accessible and fun and engaging to as wide an audience as possible. And so my role as the host is to kind of really put myself in the position of the listener and try to really break down those concepts as best that I can. And we have an expert on every week in the field of shark science, conservation, education and storytelling to kind of take us on a deep dive into a different part of this kind of amazing world of sharks, if you like. So we cover everything everything from shark physiology to, you know, shark ecology. So where do they go? What do they do? You know, where do sharks give birth? All of those kind of questions. But we also cover some more serious topics like their kind of conservation as well. So what are the primary threats to sharks and how can we move past those? And we have episodes focused on particular species. So we just did an episode on Megalodon, which was a lot of fun to kind of dive into into the life of this bring us to our shark. And and yeah, and also do episodes kind of focused around the projects of our project leaders. So the, you know, the the incredible people that the Save RC's Foundation fund and try and communicate their work to a wider audience and connect them with the public. So yeah, we cover a whole range of different topics. And we keep joking that we thought, you know, by 20 episodes in, we would have run out of things to cover. And we're still going. So yeah, it's amazing. And it's so much fun. It's awesome. It's a great, great podcast. We'll put a link in the show notes that people can get access to it. It's such a fun podcast. I learn something new each and every day when I when I when I listen to the episodes. I know I haven't listened to all 70. I'll be transparent. I'm always learning something new. And it is true though we do as podcasters when you first start out or any kind of communicators, you feel like you're going to run out of information. But I find and I don't and you know, the way I work is a lot of the times I'll speak to somebody I'll interview somebody and then during that interview or I'll listen back to the interview. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, we could go down this route, you know, or we could start talking about this because they mentioned it's obviously, you know, somebody that we should look for either talk to that person again or talk to somebody else, one of their colleagues or so forth, or they'll they'll give me like a referral to say, Hey, you should speak to so and so and you should speak to this person because they can talk on this. And I find that's really helpful when you have like, especially when you do an interview based show to be able to do that. I think even solo, I I've been able to, I mean, I might six almost 1700 episodes now on this. Wow, there's always something to talk about. And if you can't find something, I always say, No, no, there's always something, especially in ocean science, even in shark science, there's always something to talk about or someone to talk to. I think that the the profession of shark science and shark conservation has really, you know, exploded over the last 10 years where a lot more people are doing some amazing things. And I think also the power of doing this remote recording, like with software like Riverside, you're able to speak to a lot more people, zoom and stuff, you're able to speak to a lot more people around the world. And I think that really opens up the the amount of content. Do you find a lot like you find a lot of similarities in that in terms of, you know, finding information to talk about? Oh, oh, yeah, 100%. And it's just such a it's such an immense joy and a privilege to be able to speak to somebody who is not only the expert in the subject, but is so incredibly passionate about it as well. And once you get someone going on the topic that they're excited about and they're passionate about that really just comes through in the recording. And it's just one of the greatest privileges. And I think, especially, you know, the reason as well behind doing a podcast like this, and I think as well behind, you know, like beyond jaws, and there's a ton of other like amazing shark focus podcasts out there. Partly the reason why we do this is to change people's perceptions of sharks right into counter-rack that narrative that's been around for a long time, you know, that one of fear or, you know, sometimes even indifference. And I think the the power of having people who are so passionate about sharks and so passionate about the conservation get that across to the public and how amazing these animals are and how much there is still to learn about them. I think I think that's an incredibly powerful tool. And so yeah, and I never run out of things to talk about. In fact, that's something that that's a that's a I'm sure I mean, you've been in this business much longer than me. But something that I had to learn right in the beginning was how to really sort of dial back my questions. One of the biggest fears that I had was that I wouldn't ask intelligent questions or the the guests wouldn't feel like I'd researched them enough. And so I would come with this like huge list of questions to ask them. And I really had to learn to edit that down because people will go off on these little tangents. And sometimes, like you said, that's the that's the best bit, that's the most interesting part. So you want to leave space for that, right? And I learned that lesson the hard way quite early on in the podcast. So so yeah, that's never been a worry of mine that we're going to run out of things to talk about. That's for sure. For sure. When I first started, I would write out five or six, maybe seven questions. And I'd always think, was that too little? Like, maybe I should put more. So I'd have like 10 to 15 questions. And then I realized really five to six did what I needed to do to get the person talking. And then you're right, it would go on these tangents. And then you would start asking questions about the 10. Then you know, you look up and you're like, this has been an hour episode. And I can go longer. And so, you know, it's it's really interesting. Once you get people who are in this field talking, you get to hear their stories, you get to do that. And I think it's podcasting has done such a great service to scientists in that it, it allows the listener, the audience member to get to know who that person is, what they're passionate about, how they speak. Because usually you see it in a paper, like on a journal article, or you just see it in some sort of, you know, scientific American publication or BBC or things like that. And it's just usually a quote. So you don't really hear them. You don't hear their tone, you don't hear the passion and the voice. So I love the ability for podcasting to bring that out. Now, the other good thing about podcasting is that you can take your podcasting equipment, and you can bring it to a conference. And I think you did that. If I'm not correct, if I'm not mistaken, I've done that before. And I think you did that with the idea of going to, now you went to two conferences, do you want to just let us know which conferences you went, and then we'll kind of get into all that. Sure. So I went to the first one was the International Marine Conservation Congress, or IMCC, which is organized by the Society of Conservation Biology. And this year that was in Cape Town in South Africa. And then straight after that, I flew to Greece to take part in the European, the meeting of the European Alasma Brank Association. And so two very different conferences at other ends of the world. But yeah, a lot of traveling. It seemed like it seemed like it was in like a straight longitudinal line, you know, as you like a little bit off maybe, but it seemed like great from Scotland all the way down and then coming back up. So that's not it's not like I think we talked about right before we record you like the time zone wasn't too much of an issue, because the hours didn't change too too much, which is a benefit, I think. But it's still a long distance to travel. How long is the flight from like, you know, Scotland to to South Africa to Cape Town? So it's about it's about 12 hours. But then add three hours onto that for me, because I live right up north in the Scottish Highlands. So I've got to get transport to get to the airport, first of all. And so in total, in total about 15, 15 to 16 hours to get down to Cape Town. Hey, I mean, it's an app, again, I have to recognize here, like the privilege of actually being able to do that. A lot of these conferences are quite inaccessible for a lot of people. So to actually be able to go and attend these conferences is an absolute privilege. And I can totally sit on a plane for, you know, 11 hours to get there. It's no hardship. And watch, I think I watched the entire season of the House of the Dragon. Well, I was on the plane. So there you go, kill two birds with one stone. Yeah. You know, usually we usually we go to conferences, we'll start with IMCC, because that was the first one you went to on this trip. And you know, when you go to conferences, you go for a purpose either to present or serve on a panel, to podcast, what were the purposes you went for? And so IMCC was more like multi-purpose for me. So like I said, in the beginning, now we're two different hats. And one of those is Marine Social Scientist. And I currently lead on a project here in Scotland, which is looking at the management and governance of Scotland's Marine Protected Area Network. And IMCC being the kind of Congress of Marine Conservation, that work is incredibly relevant. And so on the one hand, I was presenting, but also the Save Our Seas Foundation has a big presence at these conferences. We usually sponsor them. So IMCC, we're one of the sponsors for that event. And a lot of the Save Our Seas Foundation team, we're going to be there. So just very quickly, we have kind of like, we have a core team, so our headquarters, which is based in Switzerland. But then we also have the Shark Education Center in Cape Town, which has a whole team. And then the comms team, which I'm part of, is also based within that center. But then we also have a research center on Darros in the Seychelles. And we also have a research center in Florida. And it's very rare that all of us managed to get together. And there was a lot of Save Our Seas people at IMCC. So it was also a chance for us to connect and us to meet one another, which was amazing. So like the week before that, we got to do a team building day, which was with a company based just outside of Simestown in South Africa, called Velden Sea. And they took us for this amazing, like, foraging, freediving experience. So you like go foraging while you're freediving, and then you cook up the food. And it was phenomenal. And it's just so, so great to have the whole team together. So I think there was like over 30 of us at IMCC. So it was like great to be able to connect. And of course, alongside of all of that, you know, getting to meet the people that we funded, like I said earlier, and connect with them, and also, you know, help people to know what Save Our Seas Foundation are about. So if they're potentially looking for funding, you know, learn more about us as well. So it was very much a multi-purpose trip. It was very, very busy, but incredibly fun and very rewarding at the same time. Very nice. How do you, had you been to an IMCC meeting before? I'd not know, but I've presented at ICCB before. Sorry for the listeners. I know I'm bringing in a lot of like acronyms here. But it's quite a similar vibe, I think. Yes. Yes. It's similar. I've never been to the ICCB. ICCB tends to be bigger. It tends to be more, it's not just ocean. It's not just marine. It's every realm. So there's fresh water, there's land, and then there's marine as well. So it's a bigger conference where marine is sort of the marine section of the site of conservation biology. So it tends to be a little bit smaller, a little under a thousand, I think. I don't know how many, unfortunately I couldn't make it to this one, but do you know how many of you were? I know. It's a shame you couldn't make it. So I think there was about 800 delegates at this one. So it's a big big conference. So for listeners, these kind of conferences tend to be because they're more general. So this is like kind of broad marine conservation. So that can include everything from understanding particular species to marine protected areas to working with fisheries. And so you get delegates from all over the world. And there was, we call them parallel sessions. It's basically like you have different rooms dedicated to a particular subject. And people give, you have multiple people given talks in that session. And usually at some conferences, there's only one or two or maybe three of those going on. At IMCC, there was something like six or seven of those parallel sessions all going on at the same time. So it's huge. Yeah, it is intense. And there's a lot of people running in between rooms because they want to go to one in one session and one in another session. So yeah, it's a big conference, a big conference. And pretty nerve wracking to present that, I must say. Why is that? Just because there's so many people or? Just because there's so many people and there's a lot of people there who are like very well established in the field. So for me, there was a lot of people there who I really admire, I've cited a lot of their work. And there's not just academics there either. There's like members from government agencies. There's members from NGOs, conservation organizations, you know, it really is an amazing chance to be able to like network and connect with lots of different people from all different backgrounds from all over the world. So and the room that they put me in, there was one big hall and I blame David Schiffman entirely for this. There was one enormous hall where they had all the plenary sessions. So that's the people that speak at the beginning of the day and kind of really set the scene for the conference. And it was just as massive hall with a stage at the front. And a lot of the other parallel sessions are in much smaller rooms, you know, with a little projector. I was on that big stage, which was so intimidating but it was exciting at the same time. And it was also the first time I've presented on this research. So that added a little scary element to it as well, because you're kind of thinking, oh, will the results come across okay? Or, you know, how is this gonna go? So yeah, it's pretty, pretty nerve-wracking. And my first time is PI as well. So project lead. Okay. And how did the presentation go? I think it went well. I think it went well. I've got some good feedback. And it's always hard to know because the time goes so quickly when you're in the moment and you spend, I was so stressed beforehand. I normally don't get stressed for presentations because science communication has always been my bag. So I know that I can present well. But I was so nervous for a lot of the reasons that I've just specified. So I spent a lot of the week panicking, rehearsing, you know, changing my slides again and again and again. And then when it actually comes to it, the time just goes so quickly. And then it's done and you're finished. And you're like, oh, it was all that panicking for. But yeah, it went well. And we had a good discussion afterwards. So we actually did it as a bit of more of a panel session at the end. So all the other speakers in the session kind of got up and talked about it. So, and it was in a session called Beyond 30 by 30. So it kind of looked at the concept of protecting 30% of land and sea by 2030. But asked, you know, is that enough? Or does there need to be more, you know, what comes after this? And so it was kind of trying to frame the talk with that in mind as well. And we got some really, really interesting questions from the people who were listening. So yeah, it was, it was very valuable, but it was on the last day. So yeah, yeah. You got to do everything else. And then you got to present, hopefully you weren't too nervous throughout the week for for that. Or it's like a bit, or it's like a bit of a cloud just hanging on the horizon, because you can't quite relax. You can't, you know, and also, like you said, I was trying to plan podcasts and like network and there's all these social events in the evening too. So, you know, anyone listening who is about to go to one of these conferences or has been and is like, Oh my God, they're so exhausted. Everyone finds them exhausted. It is super tiring and overwhelming. Yeah, it's not a natural thing to do. But yeah. The big thing, especially for IMCC, I've been to a lot of different conferences. IMCC is my favorite that I've been to. At this point, I've been to a, I've been to a number of them, to the three of them at this point. And I find that they are, they are my favorite, just because of the support that you get for people who present, the feedback that you get, the fact that they have like panel sessions at the end of each session, or at the end of each group of sessions, a block of sessions to be able to discuss more. There's a lot more that comes out of it than just, you know, if you're, if you're an audience member, just watching people, you know, present their stuff, but you're able to give feedback. You're able to speak to them after people are accessible, even though there's, you know, 800 some mod there. It's nice that you get access and plus the events at the, you know, at night, and evening during the day, it's very, it's a very social conference and, and it's, you know, there's a bit of a partying aspect to it, I have to admit, but it's, it's, it's a fun and friendly atmosphere where everybody's approachable, even for, for introverts out there, you know, there's, there's ways to, to be able to inject yourself into conversations and be able to be a part of, I'm an extrovert, so it's very difficult to speak on introverts behalf, but it's, it's, it's, it's, I've seen people who say, yeah, actually, like I've heard people say, they really like it because how, how approachable and support of everybody is. So I love that aspect. Yeah, I agree. And I mean, I was joking about David before, but, you know, David, David was on the organizing committee and the entire committee did such a fantastic job. You know, if you imagine like how many people you have to organize, how many topics you have to organize, it was, it was done seamlessly. Like, I can't fault them and something that made me so happy, you know, as a marine social scientist, you know, normally when you go to these board conferences or it has been in the past, I think it's getting better now, but all the human dimensions stuff is usually just kind of sectioned off in its own little box. Whereas at IMCC, it was so much, it was integrated so well into everything else. And there was so many really valuable and very interesting discussions, especially around equity and social justice in marine conservation. And being, being in South Africa, especially, there was a lot of discussions around things like colonialism and how things like apartheid are still having an impact now on who was involved in conservation, who was involved in this decision making. And one of the keynote speakers, Angela Villagomez, said something, it sounds very, very simple, but I think it's something we can all remember is that it's not just the, it's not just the why of marine conservation. So it's not just the why of how we're doing it, but it's also the how. So the process, you know, process really matters. So how are we involving people who is involved? And so there was a lot of really, really valuable discussions around that at the conference and that's probably one of the main take-home message messages for me of that conference is just how important those elements are to the success and the longevity of any marine conservation measure, you know, whether you're talking about marine protected area or whether you're talking about fisheries management measure, you know, the human dimensions of that are so, so important. Absolutely, absolutely. And Angela is a friend of the podcast. He's been on a number of times and so happy to hear that you're able to get a lot out of that, that keynote. I know he worked on him pretty hard. So that's, that's fantastic to hear. He's a real individual. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you did that conference and then you decide, hey, you know what, it's not enough that I do one conference. On the way home, I'm going to just do a little stopover into little known place called Greece. I assume it was an Athens and I'm just going to hang out with some other, some more, maybe do a presentation or two and you decide that. So what, what in the world made you decide to do one, not only another conference in that year, which is, which is good, but right after. Well, I think, I think you wanted to take that up with the conference organizers and why they all seem to have this, their events all at once, other than me. Um, so, so because, because I work for the Save our Seas Foundation, um, I, it's often part of our job that we go to events like this. So especially things like EA, the European Alliance for Frank Association Conference. Um, any partly because like I said earlier, we have a lot of project leaders who participate in these events and it's always great to go and support them. Um, but be, you know, we often sponsor these events as well. So we host social events in the evening so that people can meet one another and network. Um, and it's also a great way for more people to find out about the foundation and the kind of funding that we offer. And the reason that I usually go to these events aside from, IMCC was a bit different because it was a combination of my own research and, and Save our Seas. EA was mainly for the Save our Seas Foundation. So for me as science communicator, it's good to keep tabs on who's doing what and also to try and think about, you know, what would be a good podcast episode or can I interview anyone here while I'm here and I have everyone in the same room, um, or just to sort of introduce myself. I think it makes people feel a lot more comfortable if they've met me beforehand and we've had a chat beforehand. And so EA was kind of more focused on that, but, um, EA is a very different conference to IMCC. So IMCC, broad marine conservation, you know, loads of delegates, lots of parallel sessions. EA is much smaller and it's more, it's wholly focused around elasmabranchs and specifically elasmabranchs in Europe. And so you kind of, you're in one room for the entire day. There's talks running from 9am until 730, I believe it was, with like gaps in between four, with a gaps in between for networking. Again, the conference organizes IC, did, or IC, I should say, so it's I and then the word see as in like ocean. They did an incredible job of organizing everybody and making sure everything runs smoothly and that there was not only space for as many talks, but space for people to chat and to network in between. And the nice thing about EA is that, because you're in the same room for every single talk, you kind of are, you, I don't want to say force because it's not like you're held there against your world, but you do kind of see, I think a broader diversity of subjects than you would do ordinarily, because when you're at somewhere like IMCC and you're running in between lots of different parallel sessions, you're going specifically to the ones that cater to you, whereas EA for me was so interesting because I was not only listening to talks about my subject area, which is like working with fishers and social dimensions, but also learning about tagging and different techniques to tag sharks and also, you know, new discoveries in the biology and ecology. So yeah, it was, it was, it was really interesting and very full on as well. And then also at EA 2, I was very kindly asked to be part of a panel session on the last day. So rather than have one person speaking as a plenary, they had plenary panels, which is like a panel session that starts the day and sort of sets the tone for the rest of the day. And there was a panel, I was part of a panel on science communication, so it's called stimulating public engagement. And so yeah, yeah, so that was fun. I love it when conferences incorporate science communication. It's such an important tool that we need to, I mean, we go to conferences and we, you know, share our research, share sort of conservation initiatives, discuss important avenues, but then we never really discuss the importance of speaking about the research and speaking about these projects to a community, whether it be in person, whether it be digitally, it's such an important role. And I'm so glad to see and hear of different conferences being able to attach that as a session or a panel, the plenary panel, you know, however they do, I think it's really important. Actually IMCC used to put on Oceans Online, which was right after the IMCC conference, which was one day all about science communication. And it was it was from an Oceans Online conference that used to happen from Science Online in the US, unfortunately, that's not around anymore for a number of different reasons. But Oceans Online was probably one of my favorite science communication conferences to go to. And then they added Oceans Online to the end of IMCC. I don't think they do it anymore, but they do incorporate, I think, science communication throughout that, throughout that conference now. Yeah, and I think David Schiffman, he ran a workshop on science communication at both conferences, actually, which was great. But yeah, definitely going back to EA. I mean, when we talk about education and communication, that forms part of a lot of projects focused around sharks now, like, you know, educating the local community, you know, raising awareness, public engagement of sharks, and it's such a huge theme across a lot of these projects. So, yeah, it was really cool to be able to be part of a panel, specifically about that. And my fellow panelists, we all came from quite diverse areas of science communication. So for me, you know, scientific writing and podcasting, but there was also Felipe, who does a lot of videography. You know, there was Ella Nora, who is, you know, also she does. She is a science journalist. And then, you know, Ian Campbell and Michael Schull as well, who are kind of more part of the sort of NGO, that kind of world. So yeah, it was, it was really cool and shared by the amazing Eva Myers, who is the, you know, heads up the Angel Shark project. So she knows a lot about public engagement and things like that and community involvement. So, so yeah, it was, it was cool. It was interesting. It was very interesting. Yeah, it's good to get it from all. I think when we talk about science communication, for me, I always go to like digital science communication, because that's what I do. But there's so many other aspects to it. And I think it's great to be able to present that in front of everybody to kind of inspire people to be like, oh, well, I can do writing or, yeah, I do have like, you know, the Angel Shark network, I have an, I can create a network of different organizations and stuff. I think Project Seagrass does the same thing for Seagrass up in the UK. And so it's, it's, it's good to get the background and the challenges and solutions that they all have to overcome and be able to implement when they do these different types of science communication. So, so that's awesome. Now, I know we're running a little short on time here, but two conferences done within a span of, I believe it was two weeks, maybe even two and a half weeks, because you had your team building beforehand. How do you feel? How did you feel after that? I felt, I mean, aside from obviously tired, because it was, it was pretty full on. I felt incredibly, you know, uplifted. One of the reasons that I like going to these conferences is because I feel like it lights that spark back in you. You know, as a, as a scientist, you're often working by yourself. You know, a lot of people listening to this will be familiar with working from home. And it can feel quite lonely. And then when you go to these conferences and you see just how many people are working to protect the oceans, to, you know, understand and conserve sharks. It really, like, reignites that spark. And it spurs you on to carry on in whatever you're doing. And also you get to connect with lots of new people, so new collaborations, new ideas. So I felt very uplifted. And I think it's very easy. I think you probably talk about this a lot on this podcast is to fall into that doom and gloom trap, right? So, you know, we hear a lot of bad use related to the oceans. And these conferences, do you have an element of that? Because you are hearing stories from similar stories from all over the world. But at the same time, you're also hearing similar stories of, well, we're seeing fishermen be more engaged, or we're actually seeing this conservation measure working. And, you know, all we've trialed this project here, and now it's so successful, we have more sharks than we know what to do with, you know, you hear these, a lot of these positive success stories, and you see the amount of effort and work that's going into marine conservation. So, so yeah, I would say I'd felt very inspired and very uplifted by the end of these conferences, yeah, for sure. That's awesome. It take, I'll be honest, I'm joking about how the fact that you did two conferences in a row a lot, but it takes a lot to be able to do that and be present at each and every one of them. You know, you're, you're up late, you're, you're, you're, you're up late, you're up early the next day, you know, trying to get all these sessions in, trying to collaborate, you're, you're talking, and especially going from an area of, of working from home, or even working in a small group, to being around surrounded by 800 people and maybe 300 people at the, at the USA, it's, it's a lot, it's, it's a lot to take. So, what helped you get through those conferences? A lot of coffee. I don't drink coffee. So, like, yeah, I know. I know. I know, as an exercise, would you get out to do like, outside, like when you're in Cape Town to go out and kind of enjoy nature around there, or what, what makes what got you through those? I did in the beginning. So, me and, so that our director of the Education Center Clover is very into running. So, me and here would go for runs early in the morning. But I mean, these sessions are starting at like a a.m. So, you know, there's really not much time. I think as well, like, I think I just run on a adrenaline at these things. And like, yeah, you know, it is hard. And I think I've reached a point in my career now where I'm more used to that. I'm like, I know I've got two very intense weeks, and then after then, you know, I can relax a little bit. And you do get inspired by we were joking about it before we started recording that people like Reema Gervardo, who is just this incredible superwoman who goes from conference to conference to meeting to meeting and she's just able to be so present. And I think as well, I know how much energy it takes to first someone to present. Like, it's such a, you put so much effort into it. And so you want to really, like, if they look up from the podium and they see you in the audience, they want to see you looking at them and engaging, they don't want to see you like kind of down on your phone. So I try and keep that in mind when you're in the last session of the day. And yeah, you just meet these amazing people from, you know, all different walks of life all over the world. And it's such an exciting thing. But that's not to say that I don't find it hard. And one thing that I try to do as well is if you've got, you know, new students or early career researchers who do feel a little bit overwhelmed by these kinds of things as I try to also be a bit of a safe space. So if anyone's having, you know, a moment like that, and if you see me at a conference, you can always come to me and talk about it. And we'll go and get coffee somewhere quiet. But it's always okay as well. I mean, I work for the Save us these foundations are represent the foundation when I'm at these events. And but it's also, it's very okay to just take a moment out for yourself, you know, if you're at lunch, you know, maybe just go and have a coffee by yourself, I'll go back to your hotel room. You know, it is a very full on overwhelming thing. So don't feel like you're doing something bad by doing that. And yeah, it is not easy. It is not anything to do one conference, let alone two in a row. But it's definitely worthwhile. And you know, I'm happy that that you enjoyed yourself. I'm happy you got to do your presentations and be a part of the panel and represent Save Our Seas and be able to meet in person, some of the project leaders, but also future guests on the world of sharks. I'm sure you met a lot of them. Did you get to do some before we go? Do we did you get to do some podcasting interviews when you were there? I did. I did. Yes. And I'm very excited for them to come out. One, I can't talk about and because we're not sure when it's going to air. And but we do have one airing next week with Patricia Charvet. I don't know if you've had her. I think you had her on Beyond Jaws City? Yes. We've had him on Beyond Jaws. Yeah, we've had her on Beyond Jaws. She's awesome. Yeah. She was incredible. Again. Oh, sorry. I was just going to say again, someone coming from doing workshops all day and then being in talks all day and social events. And then she was like, yeah, let's do it tonight. And so it was just full of energy in such a phenomenal storyteller. So we have Patricia on the podcast to talk about the work that she's doing with a large tooth sawfish in the Amazonian coast. So yeah, so that's coming out next week. And then we have some more kind of lined up moving into next year as well, which is very exciting. Yes, I love that. I love that. So like I said, I'll put a link in the show notes to get access to the World of Sharks, the podcast. I'll put some links to Save Our Seas as well and the other episodes we did with some of our Save Our Seas crew. And we'll put in Patricia Charvet too so you can get a little bit of taste of Beyond Jaws as well as World of Sharks. But thank you so much. I know it's soon after that both conferences. So I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us here today and to be able to talk about the conferences. I haven't been to the essay conference yet, but I'm looking forward to doing that at some point. Maybe not back to back to another conference. I'm not sure you have your superwoman capabilities or remiss for that matter, but I don't think anybody has remiss superwoman capabilities. But I'm looking forward to being able to hang out with you at a conference and be able to chit chat and get to know each other more and talk podcasting and science communication. I'm really looking forward to that. So thank you so much for being on this episode of How to Protect the Ocean. Well, likewise, I would love that. And yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. You bet. Thank you, Isla, for joining us here on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to have you on and be able to discuss the much missed that I miss so much the conference International Marine Conservation Congress. I don't know as many people as at the European Last World Bank Association. But as you know, we mentioned a number of people who went to both. Obviously, it doesn't happen every day. This is not something that occurs all the time. But there are some people who go from conference to conference to conference, because that's part of their role. Their role is to engage with various people. Save RC's is an organization that funds other leaders. And when they are able to meet leaders or support leaders during presentations or be there to see what they've been able to be up to, what they want to be up to, and make those connections and meet potential new leaders later on. It's a great opportunity to go to these conferences for Isla as well as her colleagues at Save RC's Foundation to be able to interact with people and maybe recruit some people and suggest that they apply for grants and foundation money later on. So, always a great place to do that. And conferences are a lot of fun. I've talked about conferences before. You know, Isla mentioned at the end some of her top strategies for conferences. And I think it's really important to have your own strategy come up with your own strategy. Use some of the people as you go along and you'll learn as you go. But being at a conference is crucial in-person conferences as much as I love virtual conferences and the ease of virtual conferences and the expense or the lack of expense. In-person conferences are something completely different. And if you ever have the chance, go to the International Marine Conservation Congress. It is one of the best conferences. It is so supportive. It's very social. It's very much a family when you go there. And you get to meet new people each and every time. I was told that this time there were a lot of new people there. And I think that's great to continue on with the tradition of making it a very inclusive, very fun conferences that can get a lot out of it. Every conference that I've been to for the IMCC is extremely different. And I think that's really important because the people make up the bulk of the culture at this conference. And it's always been great people. And I heard the same thing happening that Ayla told you and others that I told me at the IMCC. So love to hear that and continuing to hear that. And I love to hear Ayla talk about the conference. Sound like a lot of fun. Sound heard exhausting and draining on her social battery. But she made it through flying colors and was able to tell us about it. So thank you for that. And I want to thank you. If you have gone to a conference or you want to go to a conference and you know you have questions around that, feel free to shoot them in a comment on Spotify on YouTube. If you want to shoot me a DM on Instagram at how to protect the ocean is the account at how to protect the ocean. But I would just love to hear what you think of the podcast, what you think of conferences, marine conservation, ask me any kind of question. Always looking to continue the conversation that we start here on the podcast. That's the beauty of having the podcast is to hear back and engage with people. It's always a lot of fun. So thanks again to Ayla. Really appreciate it. Thanks again to SaveRC's Foundation for representing each of those conferences. And I want to thank you for listening to this episode of the How To Protect The Ocean Podcast. I am your host Andrew Loon. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.
