JR Afternoon with Chris Renwick

From Courtroom Drama to Presidential Triumph

November 7, 2024 ~ Marie Osborne and George Donnini, Butzel-Long White Collar Criminal Defense Attorney, explore the unprecedented legal challenges faced by President-elect Trump, including criminal convictions and ongoing civil cases, as he prepares to assume office.

Duration:: 10m
Broadcast on:: 07 Nov 2024
Audio Format:: other

All right, it's a pretty extraordinary and unique position for him to be in former President Trump. The President-elect never before has a criminal defendant been elected to the nation's highest office, just as an ex-President had never been criminally charged until last year. So President-elect Donald Trump still has three outstanding criminal cases hanging over him, and sentencing still to come in his hush money case in which he was convicted of 34 felony counts. But despite the predictions to the contrary, none of these charges ended up sinking Trump's political fortunes along the way. In fact, they bolstered his popularity among his base, and he used the convictions as a fundraising tool. This is something that's going to be studied for many, many years to come by historians and others as well. So what could happen to Trump's criminal cases now that he's becoming President? We thought we'd check in with George Donini of Butts-a-Long White-Color Criminal Defense Attorney. George, thank you so much for joining us today. Of course, Maria, thanks for having me. I just want to make sure we say your name right. George Donini. Pretty close, Donini. Donini. I'm Italian. I should be able to say that. It should just roll off my tongue. What's with me? All right, George. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. So why don't you start by very briefly outlining what are the three cases that still stand? Sure. So you mentioned in your lead in the New York case, that's kind of the fourth one, we'll call it. That's where he, there is the conviction on the 34 counts and sentencing is coming up. So I'm sure we want to talk about that. The three pending cases, two federal cases by Special Prosecutor Jack Smith. The one in D.C. is the so-called election interference case. The other one is down in Florida, which is the improper retention of classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago address. And then the third is a state court case down in Fulton County, Georgia, which is essentially styled as a Rico case, has multiple defendants and is also about the attempts to overturn the 2020 election. Well, let's talk about the first one that you mentioned, the one that he's facing sentencing on. Where are we with that? I mean, is it possible? We could see him in court for sentencing on this? Yeah, so this is the really interesting one, right? There are convictions. The sentencing hearing is scheduled for November 26, so not very far away. Before that, however, on November 12th, a judge there, Judge Morshan, has kind of imposed a, it's like a self-imposed deadline that he put forward. And in the federal D.C. case, there was the Supreme Court decision that said presidents or former presidents are immune from their official acts. And so there was arguably some evidence introduced during the New York State court case. They could have been violative of that Supreme Court case that came afterwards. So, you know, the way Judge Morshan can potentially, you know, I don't want to say it pejoratively, but duck the harder question of whether he can sentence a president-elect is to say, well, there was some improper evidence that came in, and so we have to set aside the convictions. Now, that's coming up right around the corner. We'll see if he does that. If he says, no, the case is fine, and there was no violation of the Supreme Court holding, then whether November 26 sentencing ever happens remains to be seen because you could be sure President-elect Trump's lawyers will seek to delay that until he takes the presidency. And then I just don't see how a state court judge can sentence a sitting United States president. Yeah, and some of this sounds also like it's up to the discretion of the judge. Well, discretion of the judge, but remember, he's a he's a lower level state court judge, and there are many layers of state courts above him, and then ultimately, the United States Supreme Court. So, sure, he has discretion in his courtroom, but his analysis and his decisions will be scrutinized heavily. And again, you know, just the supremacy clause of the Constitution says, you know, federal is higher than state, and so it's going to be real hard for a state court judge to be acting kind of outside the box, if you will, for against the sitting president. So, President-elect Donald Trump has indicated that he wants to fire the special counsel, Jack Smith. So, will that end then the federal cases against him for trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election? And I think this also the mishandling of the classified documents. Yeah, I think effectively, that's right. I know that there's reporting that says that the Jack Smith is in discussions with the Department of Justice to kind of figure out what his path is going to be and what he's going to do. But, you know, we've seen tweets or statements from President-elect Trump that he would fire him within two seconds of taking office, and I have no doubts that he'll do exactly that, whether Jack Smith steps down before that, whether Jack Smith seeks to kind of continue and maybe put some of the evidence that he's assembled forward and put it out in the public domain, you know, remains to be seen. But I don't see how, number one, there's no way those cases could proceed between now and January 20th, which is when Mr. Trump will assume the office and become President Trump again, the 47th president. So, nothing can happen between now and then. And certainly, when he's in office, he can essentially, I don't know if I say control of the Department of Justice, but largely control its activity, then can tell whoever he appoints as the attorney general that the special prosecutor should be relieved. A lot of times when we talk about these cases, we'll ask the experts like you and we'll say, "Okay, if this was just an average citizen, if this was me or if this was you, would we be in this same position? How would we be treated? What are your thoughts on that?" Well, I think, you know, President-elect Trump is uniquely situated here, right? Yeah. Clearly, you or I probably couldn't be in this position, because we wouldn't be at the level that he is at to kind of be involved in this conduct, one way or another. But I understand the point of the question is, the fact is he has a title, he has a significant title, and he was reelected in the face of all the, I mean, I heard you're the leader of the organization, and even facing all of these charges and facing the actual conviction itself, the American public still elected him, President of the United States. Were you surprised by that? Look, I don't know if I was surprised. I think leading up to this, there was, you know, it was going to be at least reported to be a closer election than it turned out to be. And so, you know, our system is kind of a dual-party system, and typically, there are two viable candidates, so, you know, somebody's got to win, and here he obviously won. And what does, what legal victories has the President won so far? Because there's been several that he has won. Well, yeah. So, I mean, I think a big victory that he got was the Supreme Court decision back in the summer. Oh, yeah. That was a big one. And, you know, that has had ramifications. He also, the judge in the Florida case, I mean, Cannon, she ruled that the special prosecutor, essentially, that the attorney general lacked the authority to appoint Jack Smith, which I, I question whether that decision will hold up on appeal, but again, it may become moot because the cases aren't going to continue, so that may not be tested. And then let's not forget, there are a number of civil cases that are out there, and I think there's a slightly different analysis when it comes to civil cases. And that would be? So, you know, criminal cases allowing a sitting president to pursue running the country, essentially, without being burdened by a criminal case, has its kind of own unique set of rules and makes a lot of sense, right? We should, our, our, our president of the United States should not be burdened with sitting in a courtroom. There's requirements that are in criminal cases that the defendant be present. However, civil cases, there is some precedent going back to when, when Bill Clinton was president. And there are, there's at least one Supreme Court case that says that sitting presidents cannot invoke presidential immunity to avoid civil litigation, even while they're in office. So I think it's a different analysis there. You know, there's a handful of civil cases or maybe more. You know, there was that at New York Attorney General's civil fraud case that, that actually resulted in a $450 million verdict against president-elect Trump. So, it'll be interesting to see how that case proceeds, how the defamation cases with Eugene Carroll proceed. There's some January six cases that are civil cases. And I think those will be allowed to run their course because again, if they detract it less from a sitting president than a criminal case does. And so there's a different, you know, legal analysis that comes. But I could imagine that, that president-elect Trump's lawyers will say even those should be, you know, held and not come into, because they still will distract him. But I think they'll be allowed to proceed the civil case. Well, we're glad you're helping us sort it all out, George Dunini. But it's a long white-collar criminal defense journey. You really had so much insight. Thank you so much for your time today. Of course, any time. Thank you so much. Your afternoon continues here on WJR.