[MUSIC] We're back in on Kidock Central, Dan Riczio, Satyar Shah. [MUSIC] A good old-fashioned slobber knocker at MSG. Rangers and Devils starting their match up with five fights on the ice. Only four refs, five fights, what do you do? Eight players got ejected. Even Travis Green and Peter Lavielek got into it. Reminiscent of Canucks Calgary all those years ago, with Torts and Artly. Kellen Lane getting in the other place, Tom Sustito, Kevin Biexa. >> Yeah. >> Shane O'Brien having to hold Torts back. >> [LAUGH] >> The good old days, it's Dan Riczio, Satyar Shah. It is Canucks Central, we're in the KinTech studio. And our next guest is the only guru in goldmagazinenhl.com. It's Kevin Lydley, his presentation of White Rock Hyundai. What's happening Lydley? >> Not much, do you know he's also the guy that made Torts really angry that morning, so angry in fact that before he would address storming the Calgary flames or attempt to storm the Calgary flames dressing room, he had to actually go back to a question that was asked at the morning skate. And reiterate his response to it because he was still upset about it. Before he would talk about what happened that night. So yeah, that little piece of Canucks infamy and Laura sadly played a bit of a role in it. >> Yeah, it was an interesting year around John Tornerella in Vancouver to say the least. And while memories showing up through my Twitter timeline with what's going on between the Rangers and Devils, the Devils get their long wanted revenge on Matt Rempy in that game. So last night against the Vegas Golden Knights, your take on the game, just how bad were the Vancouver Canucks last night? >> I mean, like you could probably add up every other game in the month of March and not get as many high danger rush chances against as they gave up last night, right? >> Yeah. >> That's the thing that jumps out. And we've talked about it. That's the biggest difference in this team now compared to last year, under Bruce Boudreaux and sort of previous generations of this team is not giving up those rush chances, not giving up the free goals, right? Because that's essentially what they are, is freebies. And last night, the way Vegas was able to sort of stretch them out and use that weak side of the ice and attack off that with long passes. If it's a trend, man, look out. Cuz I know everybody's gonna be all over Casey to Smith. But when you start giving up on man rushes, this is inevitably what happens. The example I point to, I mean, they've just become such an easy example. The point to this year is the Edmonton Oilers. First up until mid November under the old coach, dead last in the NHL and high danger chances against off the rush. And everybody was wondering why they couldn't get a save. Since mid November in the coaching change, first in the NHL, high danger chances against the rush and nobody's asking that question. So listen, does that led Casey off the hook for all of it? No, but if you're going to play that way and give up those types of chances. As we saw when Patrick Emko was in that last year, it doesn't matter who your goalie is if you start bleeding high danger rush chance. >> Well, and that was kind of the most concerning part of that game. Cuz we were talking about in the first segment that over the previous 25 games since the all-star break, yeah, they haven't been great at moments, obviously. They've had some bad moments, but they haven't had a ton of red flag games. Obviously, how they blew it against Colorado was bad. They've had a couple bad performances there. But generally they're playing through their identity. Last night was a massive departure from their identity. And the question just is, is it a one off or is it a trend that we're gonna start seeing? Cuz those would be red flags if they play like this the rest of the way, right? >> Yeah, no, and that's the thing. Even as much as people were upset but worried about the losses to LA. The losses to Dallas, the fact that the wins on the homestand were all against sort of the lesser lights and on playoff teams. They were also in all those games, right? Like other than an ill-advised penalty late against Dallas. Like that's a one-one game against a team with a shot at winning the president's trophy in the third period. They're in those games. Last night was the first time where A, they're not in the game. But we also see what happens if they have to open it up and chase a game. And it wasn't pretty, right? Like in terms of the chances they gave up. And I guess, like, can you actually, the irony is the chances they gave up weren't necessarily about opening up. Like they just scored to get back into a game and they just make those crucial mistakes. So, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, it's a one off until we see it again. And if we start to see it with any regularity down the stretch, if we start to see other teams opening them up off the rush, the way Vegas did, then you say, "This is a trend. This is worrisome. Maybe Vegas identified something that other teams are going to look for as well." And, you know, again, we'll have to see if that happens to this point. I'm ready to just call it a one-off and let's hope it stays that way because it wasn't pretty. It wasn't fun to watch, right? Like as much as we're impartial observers, it kind of sucks when you know it's over after the first period. You're still getting a paycheck that says you got to watch another two. You know, a big part of the conversation is, well, look at their last five losses and they're all against future playoff teams or teams that are currently in a playoff position, right? Colorado, Washington, L.A., Dallas, and Vegas. And what happened in a lot of those games, even the more recent ones, Dallas and Los Angeles, they fell behind in those games. And I think that's, you know, you mentioned it there with Vegas last night. You have to open it up and then you're giving up more rush chances. But this team has built its success this season, Woodley, on getting ahead, right? They score first more than any other team in the league. They've taken a ton of leads into the third period. I just, I wonder if we've seen this team have to come back in games and if that's going to happen in the playoffs, I mean, it's, you know, you could say it for a lot of teams, but I just, I really don't know if this team has the kind of ability to come back in games if they fall behind. Well, I mean, they've been one of the lesser lights when it comes to scoring off the rush all year. Like that's not their identity, right? And so I was impressed even in tight games when they were lose, like there were times there where they weren't opening it up. They were creating chances and getting opportunities. And yeah, even in a couple of those, like, you know, they scored with the goalie pulled, which you can't really count on during that homestand. At the end of the day, like this is the identity that has lacked so much for this team for so long, the inability or unwillingness or lack of sort of instruction on how to defend at a high level. They have that. There are questions about the offense. I think we see whether it's on the power play or five on five, the lack of, you know, sort of what they're creating, the lack of the underlying numbers haven't been flattering, even before the all-star break. There are things they do well that help them score goals. But even with those things accounted for, as we've talked about with the clear side numbers, they account for all the screens and all that stuff and they still rank near the bottom of the league offensively. So whether it's they're missing a piece still in the top six or missing a piece on the power play, offense is going to be a challenge. It's not the identity of this team right now, like it's not making mistakes, it's not creating turnovers, it's not giving up the free goals the other way and giving yourself a chance to be in games. What we've seen since the all-star break is the margins are getting tighter because they're not extending those leads, they're not playing as many of the lesser lights. These are tighter games. Everybody's tightening up and I kind of think like this is just where they're at and it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just more of a reality check compared to early in the season where 2-1 would turn into 4-1 or 5-1. And I think when you, like I wouldn't take it the other way, like I wouldn't trade this for, "Oh hey, they can score at will, but they can't keep the puck out of the net." Boy, if that's your damn goal, better come back. I like the way they play. I think this identity gives them a better chance in the playoffs. Does that mean they're ready to succeed against playoff teams with enough regularity to get through a round or two? We'll have to wait and see. But I think there's a lot more in how they play now that gives them a chance of success than anything they've done before, even if there are still question marks to come with it. Well, I'm with you on that too, Kevin, and I know people are really antsy and I get it, so until they can claim the division and we get into the postseason, I think fans will be on edge and we'll see ultimately how it all comes together. But you mentioned Casey the Smith last night too. I want to just get your thoughts on just his play overall, but also the funniest moment was he made such an incredible save on the first goal. And then he goes to slide the puck into his glove, like what happens at a moment like that where you miss it? Is it because it's early in the game? The ice is a bit slicker? Because I don't know if I've seen something like that before. No, that's a tough break. You make a great save. Like you said, like pucks elevated and everything gets a pat on it and just, I mean, this is why we started pro-reach hitting goal mag, because it's really easy from the outside to be like, ah, he did this wrong, he did that wrong, and we like to talk to the gold tenors and ask them. You know, I just think that's, I mean, your instinct, it's really hard as a gold tenor to sort of cover a puck with your blocker. And so the habit is to sort of either get a glove on it, you don't want to reach over and open up, you go to tap it in your glove and be missed, right? Like it's, it's, it's more of a physical mistake than it is a mental error, and it proves costly and it's too bad because that, the statistics, the analytics don't like the marches so goal, goal in terms of it being a clear sided shot, even off the rush, even with pass options. In fact, there wasn't a pass that preceded it. But I think we know enough as hockey fans, like, okay, yeah, it's from that area and yeah, it's a clear shot, but if that's Brock Besser, the Canucks would be 40 goal score coming down the wing and going just inside the bar, low blocker, a really tough spot for goalies, you're tipping your hat, right? I think the first one's just a tough break. I didn't, the, the Marshall goal is the one where he gets punished statistically for wasn't his best outing, right? Like, like, I don't think he'd pretend otherwise, but I think when you see the odd man rushes in the chances they gave up, you know, I don't, I don't know that they're in this game, you know, if it's a different goal tender, regardless, it's just one of those nights where they gave up too much. I think, you know, I mean, the expected goals were, were hovering around four and they gave up six. So I guess a four, three game instead of a six, three game, you take that, but I find it hard to be hyper critical of his game. I think the expectations in this market sometimes tend to be Thatcher Damco level performances, which, you know, a guy who's going to be in the VEZ, the trophy conversation. I think Casey Dismith has given them everything they need out of a backup goal tender and the, for the most part over the past two weeks, anything you, everything you could expect out of a guy in his position. And so last night wasn't his best, but I don't think he's the reason by any stretch why they lost that game. Yeah. And, you know, generally, it hasn't been, he hasn't been the issue for the reason the Canucks are around 500 in the time that Damco has been out of, of the lineup. We did see Damco get, He's been right around expected. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. But he's, you know, just, you know, like relative to the environment, because the environment has been pretty good. Right? Like last night was the first time it cratered. They've had a lot of games where the expected goals against are in the ones. They've played really well defensively during this stretch and obviously your goal is benefit from that. And he's performed right around expected and I just think, you know, that's what you want out of your, out of your backup. You're not expecting superhuman performances and he's delivered at that level. We did see that Damco get to practice ahead of the Vegas game. We were a little bit surprised to see him on the trip after Rick Talkett said he wasn't going to make the trip. He's eligible to return as early as Saturday, not sure if he will make that start against the LA Kings to come off of LTIR, but I guess all things pointing to Thatcher being ready with a few games to go and be able to get into a few games before the playoffs begin. Yeah. Certainly. And you know, like tough, you know, what I wish, I don't often wish I was on the road because frankly, the people that travel with the team, that's, that's a tough gig. But I would have liked to have been there because I think it's going to be, and I've said this throughout, it's not just when he's back, but it's how he looks and how he's how he feels when he comes back. And only he can tell us how he feels in terms of, you know, whether he trusts his body coming back from that injury and isn't worried about the potential for re-injury and whether he can play free of the worries that come with, you know, any doubts in your mind. And the truth is he's probably not going to tell us, right? So short of that, being able to see the movements, look for hiccups in the movement patterns, look for any, any sort of compensatory patterns in the way he, he skates and moves and drops into a butterfly and recovers. You know, I remember watching Joseph Wall when he came through here with Toronto, everything looked fantastic as he was trying to get back from that high ankle sprain, him and Curtis Sanford out early working, watching the patterns, I'm like, man, this guy looks like he's ready to play. And then as soon as it came to post work, which puts the most stress on your ankle, it was pretty clear that he still had some work to do. So until I get a chance to sort of see him moving around, you know, can't really comment on it, but certainly a good sign that he felt good enough to be out there on the ice. I mean, the next question is, was he just skating, he pushes movement patterns, or was he dropping to the ice? Was he performing butterfly recoveries on both sides? Is he going into the post? Is he anchoring in his reverse popping in and out of it? Thatcher moves around the crease with such explosive power. I've used the word in the past that it's almost there's almost a level of violence to his movement. Is he moving like that? Is he comfortable moving like that? Is it only to one side or is it to both? And those are all answers we'll only get when we get a chance to see him on the ice here in Vancouver. Yeah. And I guess the question is how many games is he ultimately going to get in? I mean, my guess would be, Kevin, we may see him on Monday. Is it playing with fire if you say, if there, if you play in three out of four games, like do you kind of, if you want to play in three games, you kind of want to have two rest days in between after coming off an injury? Honestly, it all depends on how he feels. And this is, you know, so like I'd love to give you the, like a clear cut answer, but the truth is I don't know. And the truth is that's the answer, like how he feels. If he's not feeling like if this is his minor and injury is, is maybe we've been led to believe and they've been careful and they've given it enough time and there's no risk of re-injury and that's not in the back of him with his mind at all. And he's back out there at, you know, even 80 or 90%, ramping up into the weekend towards a hundred, then you can play him without fear. Like it sounds like this is an injury based on, you know, just the nature of goaltending. It puts you in compromised positions physically as opposed to one based on wear and tear. And so if the healing is complete and the mind trust that the body isn't going to let him down, then you can increase that workload if you see fit. Like what are they? And sorry, sad. How many do they have left after Monday? Is it just four? It'll be after Monday will be four games. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think he probably would want three, but if it ends up just being two, I don't think that's, you know, as long as he feels good about those two, I don't think that's a fear either. Dr. Shiloh is getting the start again tonight as he played on Sunday. I thought he looked pretty good. And, you know, I guess it's a bit of an audition for him to potentially be Thatcher Demko's backup next season, Woodley. Yeah. And this is one of those things that like it's really tough to explain this unless you've played the position and I've used the analogy to golf, like you can't try harder. And there's a lot of that. That's what Arters is trying to accomplish right now. He's trying to let the game come to him when he gets too aggressive, when he wants to go into save execution mode, a little too early, a little premature, that's when he gets in trouble. And I saw a bit of both frankly in that game on Sunday early in the game, I thought he was really settled in letting things come to him. There were moments when the game sped up and he looked like he was trying to push the pace rather than pulling at his pace and letting it come to him. There were moments where he was overextended. There were moments where there was a little bit of chase and it looked a little more frantic than it probably should for him to have success at this level. And that's the balance he's trying to strike right now. Henrik Lundkrist used to call it relaxed intensity. And it's a really fine line for gold tenors and as a young guy in the league, you feel the pressure, you feel like, hey, I'm at another level now, I need to do more. And convincing yourself that how you play is how you play. And this is a big challenge as we head into the playoffs for a lot of gold. Freddie Anderson once told me like years into his career, he was already with the Leafs, so I think all that time with Anaheim, it wasn't until his time in Toronto that he finally realized he didn't need to do more once the playoffs start. Like think how absurd that is. Like you play 82 or whatever it goes, it's 60 games in a regular season, you're a work course number one. And also because it's the playoffs, you felt like you needed to do more. And again, in gold tenning, it doesn't work that way, like you can't just try harder out there. I just had this conversation with Casey talking about archers just this last week, like tension is the enemy of gold tenning. And as soon as you try harder, what happens? You tense up, you know, your arms aren't relaxed, you're not letting things come to you, you're not making instinctual reactive saves, your edges are more dug into the ice, your arms are tense at your side, your hands are locked up. Like there are all these negatives that come with tension and it takes time to sort of find that balance and it's something that I think archers is still looking for at this level. Like I said, I saw it in moments against Anaheim, but I also saw the other. And so if it looks like he's a little frantic, if the pads are coming out from under him, you know, they're not sort of hitting the ice and nicely tightly sealed, that usually means he's starting to extend prematurely and that's something to look for when he gets a little too over anxious and tries to do a little too much, move a little too quickly. That's when he gets himself into trouble. Before we let you go and kind of going around the league a little bit, one guy I want to ask you a little bit about is Connor Hellebuck and the Winnipeg Jets, I mean, they've been on a bit of a skid now, they didn't win their last game, but Hellebuck went from maybe being the shoe in to win the Vessna with the way we looked at it. And then Demko getting injured, we're like, well, I mean, you know, it may just be Hellebuck's to take, but the way he's kind of struggled, is it emblematic of him, his team, like, what do you think is going on there with the Jets and Hellebuck? It's a little bit of both. The underlying numbers haven't slipped significantly. He's kind of the last guy to have a slump, right? Like he, and that's a thing about what Helle's done this season that made him such a worthy Vessna candidate, even if the overall numbers that goal saved above expected were lower than a couple of other guys, he'd steadily climbed that chart. There was a real steadiness to his game, especially in one goal games or tied games, like his numbers are like, that's where he's produced most of his goals saved above expected when things are tight. And he kind of looked like he was going to be slump-proof. He'd gotten so far, I think it's a sign of just how tough it is to sort of maintain a high level for very long in this league, like everybody's sort of gone through ups and downs, his is coming at an in-opportunetime, and much like that, your damn close injury came in an in-opportunetime, because he was playing so well right ahead of that injury. I felt like he had a chance to go on a run over this last month. They could have put him back in this conversation, especially with Hellebuck scuffling a little right now. Still think the way general managers vote that Hellebuck will be the safe bet, but if St. Louis gets in the playoffs, Jordan Bennington, and I know it's a long shot, but you know, in terms of just goals saved above expected, which I mean, what's your job to do better than your environment, like to save more pucks than you should be reasonably expected to. Bennington's a full seven goals up on Connor Hellebuck right now going into play tonight. And if you were to widen that gap to 10, which is kind of where Mark Strums was before they basically traded everyone away, and the bottom started to fall out on him a little bit, you maybe start to make an argument that Jordan Bennington, he should definitely be part of the conversation. But with two weeks left in the season, could he actually pass Connor Hellebuck? General managers in the way they decide unlikely he makes the playoffs and gets them into an eighth spot? You never know. I certainly think he deserves at least consideration at this point. Woodley, we always appreciate the time. Thanks for this. Thanks, guys. There he is, Kevin Woodley, the goalie guru himself in goal magazine and NHL.com. And on Sportsnet 650, he is brought to you by White Rock Hyundai visit the showroom on King George in White Rock or White Rock Hyundai.com. Well, it's, it's really funny that Thatcher Demko stole second in the league and wins 34 wins, you know, because the Panthers have struggled like Bobrovsky was, you know, playing really well. He's kind of struggled. He has 33 wins. Stuart Skinner has 33. Gorgiev has 37. I'm not sure he's going to win the vests. I don't think he's been as good as the wins kind of indicate, right? But you know, as much as it looked like Demko may kind of a loss is shot at winning the vests on trophy, it may still kind of be in play here for him. It is certainly possible. You know, Gorgiev has played 58 games already. So he's got a leg up on a lot of the other players as far as games played goes. Certainly Sorrows, I think has more games than one Alex Gorgiev. So yeah, I mean, if, if Hellabuck finishes strong, he may just take it reputationally as well and how consistent he was. But I thought Woodley made a great point to every single great goalie this year has had a bad streak. Yeah. You know, Hellabuck finally had his, Shisturkin went through his, Sorrows had his struggles, right? You know, and even Vasilewski, he's been a lot better recently, he had a horrible start to the season. Sorrowski surgery. Yeah. And Sorrowskin has had some troubles and, you know, he's finally his game again. But everybody's gone through some sort of a streak at some point and, and nobody has really godly save percentages, even raw save percentages. Like nobody's really in the 9/20s. The highest is of the car, of the car, uh, the candidates for the Vessna is Demko at 9/17 and Hellabuck at 9/19. Yeah, which might be the thing that tips the iceberg towards Connor Hellabuck for the Vessna. Well, see what happens, you know, but if whatever games, whatever games Demko has coming back, he's still got a chance to win the Vessna. If he plays, if he can, if he, let's see, he gets three starts and wins all three. Yeah. Maybe throws in a shout out in there or whatever and then in a save percentage goes up. I mean, he still has a chance. I, I thought it was too, I thought for him individually, the injury came at a really bad time. Yes. And it was like, yeah, I mean, it may just kind of curtail your chances of, of actually winning it. Yeah, I think he, I think he'll still finish as a finalist. So if the timeline is Monday, April 8th for him to make his return to the line, that would be five games remaining Vegas, Arizona, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, if he's going to get three of those games, it's probably Vegas, Edmonton and Winnipeg. So would be a tough, tough spot for Demko to come back in, but a good one, as far as he's getting prepared for the playoffs to go up against three big-time playoff teams. All right. Stan Reicho and Satty R. Shaw coming back. It's Wednesday. It's overrated, underrated here on Kedok Central. Hey, it's Jamie Dodd and Thomas Strantz. Get your daily dose of Canucks talk with us weekdays from 12 to 2 on Sportsnet 650. Or catch up on demand through your favorite podcast app. (upbeat music)
