Radio Miraya
2845: ROUNDTABLE: Resumption of Tumaini Peace Talks in Kenya
(upbeat music) - The Round Table. - Hello and welcome to the Round Table. My name is Sunny Martin, I'm coming to life from at Juba. This weekend and today we are going to be looking at the resumption of the Tomaini Peace Initiative in Nairobi, Kenya, next week. The mediator of the Tomaini Peace Initiative have confirmed that peace talks between the South Sudan government and the person who hold that group will resume in Nairobi, Kenya, on Monday, next week. This follows a meeting earlier this week between President Salfa Girmayarid of South Sudan and President William Gutt of Kenya in Juba where the Tomaini mediators was given two weeks timeline to address the remaining issues. The Tomaini Peace Initiative officially began in May, 2020, and the initiative aims to bring a peace by involving the whole that group that had not signed a 2018 rebuttalized peace agreement. And the first official commitment document was signed on May 16th, 2024 after several days of discussion. However, the roots of the initiative trace back to early peace talks, such as the Rome Peace Initiative that was initiated in 2019, which had been stalled by 2022 following delays. President Salfa Kerry requested the Kenyan President William Roto to lead the mediation effort leading to the formation of the Tomaini Peace Initiative. And today we will attempt to answer several questions including what exactly are the Nairobi talks about, what are the protocols that were signed and what do they mean, and how do the people South Sudan fall in the equation or in the equation of the Tomaini Peace Talk? And how does this process stand vis-a-vis the 2018 rebuttalized peace agreement? Those are some of the questions we are going to be discussing here with my panelists. And I will be joined by two of my guests, live from Nairobi from the venue, actually, of the peace talk. I am joined already on the line by Bishop Enoch Tombbe, who joins us right now from Nairobi. And he is the representative of the first base group and the South Sudan Council of Churches. Good morning, Bishop. And thank you so much for joining us on the line from Nairobi this morning. Good morning. And also, we are expecting Honorable Pagana-Mum, the chairperson of the person hall that group and leader of the really spell him to be joining us. He says he is trying to connect with us, just communicated with him just a while ago. He will be joining us here. We had extended our invitation to a senior member of the high-level implementation committee. Honorable Port Kang, who is a member of the high-level implementation committee and the senior member of the spell him I/O. He texted me that due to his tight schedule, he can't make it today, but he promised to appear in any other discussion which the round table may deem fit for him next time. And in this today here, I have Ed Monicani, who is the executive director of community empowerment for progress organization, and also a member of the civil society to mine a peace initiative. You are most welcome, Ed Monicani. - Yeah, thank you very much. - And good morning to listeners of Mira FM. - And our lines will be open to you later on. You can call on 091-206-7879 or 091-206-7929. Oh, you can also call us on 091-206-8101. Those are all our lines. Oh, you can visit our Facebook page and drop your question, and some of you have already done, and I will be reading some of these comments of US. First of all, let me begin with you, Bishop N. October. What is your reaction to the announcement of the resumption of the two-minded peace initiative? Two months after the initiative is told, you have been in Nairobi all along, and you have been waiting to see the last communication. Now that it has been made officially, what is your reaction, and the other teams in Nairobi? - Thank you for the question. But before I answer your question, I wanted to quote from the Bible. John chapter eight was 31-32. Then Jesus said to those Jews who believe him, "If you abide in my word, you are my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth. The truth shall make you free." So I wanted to tell the truth as a witness here. It's true we have been waiting for two months, the whole of September and October, and we're very happy that at last our two principles, President Ruto Aquina and President Salvatil of South Sudan, agreed to give a green light for the tops to go ahead as from tomorrow, the 11th. And they also said it might be only within two weeks. So as a member of the stakeholders, we also received a letter from the chief mediator, officially informing us in writing. And so what we have heard already in the social media or in the media. And so we as stakeholders, we issued a statement welcoming the results of the talks. And we hope that at this time everything will be finished because the removal is very simple. It's all the one protocol left, a lot of inclusive governance and transformational sharing. So we are very happy and we pray that this time it will not take long again that possible. 'Cause we need to go home for Christmas by the way. Thank you. - Eddie Maniacani, your reaction to this announcement. - Of course, as you say, it was a two months for team in Nairobi waiting. And for me in Juba, it was two months from Marathon, to convince the party to go back to Nairobi. So my reaction is that it's a good development. It's something we're wishing for, it's something we've been advocating for, it's something that we have been keenly engaging the parties to my in-person history, facing mainly the government, and then the opposition parties that are non-signatory to the other access. And we are aware that the problem is with the artigano, and of course we are aware that the artigano is composed of five parties, and each party have its own position towards the Tomahini. And of course, building as a witness in Juba, engaging the principals, and engaging the members of the artigano parties, I come to discover that people still have a lot of fear around Tomahini. And I know, as Bishop have said, it is commissioned for two weeks, but the level of fear that I assess personally in Juba, it may take us more than two weeks, and specifically, if we're-- - Where is the fear coming from? - The fear is coming from this jargon, or from this terminology, they call it outstanding issues, which later on I will unpack to all this meant by understanding issues based on my engagement with the members of the parties of artigano in Juba. And of course, this merge from the angle of the meeting of the presidency, when the chief mediator came to Juba to brief the principals of briefing the presidency plus, and concerns have much out of there. And also, remember, there's concerns raised by S.P.L.M.I.O, a chief person, his exes, first vice president, in his position paper about the Tomahini, which I can let them withdraw from Tomahini. So the fear is around the last protocol that Bishop have pronounced. But that protocol is being surrounded by so many questions from the parties. The fear is all around responsibility sharing. There are people who feel that the responsibility sharing will fish them out of the government and will bring in some people into government. Those who feel that they will be fished out of the government by the outcome of the protocol of responsibility sharing, they group themselves across the party as anti-Tomahini group. And those who feel that those who have mobilized themselves as anti-Tomahini group, group themselves as a pro-Tomahini group. So you have two contradictory committee or teams within the artigano. There are those artigano members across the parties are anti-Tomahini and there are artigano members across the parties that are pro-Tomahini. So actually even within artigano still, much work needs to be done to consolidate position. And my fear is if they are to put new delegates that will represent the delegation of the artigano, who might have not been part of the initial background of where we are coming from, is going to drug fits. So that's where the fear is coming from. And now this fear that's coming from is surrounded by what's on it, surrounded by the following one. There are questions of what is meant by the National Leadership Council and where does the need of National Leadership Council coming from. Why should the NPTC be changed into a national implementation oversight commission? Why is JDB is incorporating the element of the security? Why the SRD board is changed to an oversight commission? Why we have the regional panel? Each of them have a different interpretation and all this constitute what is called outstanding issues and this constitutes the fear. So each of these institution that I've mentioned, each party have their own views about it. There are those who view the National Leadership Council is a structure established to undermine the presidency and the leaders of the country, which is not true. There are those who believe that actually the reform or the structuring of the NPTC into a national implementation oversight commission. It is a creation of a mechanism that takes also responsibility of ARGEMEC and also they say the National Leadership Council is taking functions of ARGEMEC, which is not true. And some are questioning why do we element of security into JDB, but then JDB is only defense focused, the SRD board. So all those ones and even some have reached as to the level saying the regional panel, it's a proposal. - And I wish Pangan could have been with us. - No, he actually wished Pangan could be going. - I can see him at the 20th, 20th. - Yeah, I wish Pangan because the people here in Jubah who are leveling Pangan as he's bringing trusteeship through the regional panel, which is not true because I confirmed that those who are having a negative leveling on our book, Pangan is a no, the regional panel is not new. It is in existence are access. Remember, we have Alpha Conary, who is A.U. High Representative Sashodan, who have won between the period of 2016 to 2018, is because of his health issues, you couldn't come. You remember there's A.U.C. 5, where five member states, this regional panel, just we're just trying to be functional, but there's no no, this trusteeship, which is not true and I've been confronting them here. So all these particular issues, surrounded what is called the fierce and these fears are defined as outstanding issues and a good enough sign I want to give you this. You remember his excellency vice president, Dr. Juan Ega, who at the same time is the first deputy of the ruling party of the S-Pellum, where everything comes from. He has been silent from day one when we start to minding. Until one to mind is stuck. Until one to mind is stuck. He came out now as pro to minding, not anti to minding. He become a pro to minding. Now he's coming as a pro to minding. He has summarized us all outstanding issues in one sentence, that there are people in the incumbent government who smell to minding as a wash smell, that they don't want to smell it, because they feel they're going to lose their seat to the smell of to minding, the summer. Okay, yes, we announced that one of my guests will be joining us shortly. Yes, he is going to be joining us. He has some challenges in joining us, but it's being sorted out by our team here and also with the support of the bishop for him because I can see him trying to help. Let's go to Bishop, you have been one of the people actually participating and trying to come up with the confident building. That is one of the issues that came up with during this negotiation in Arabia. Like you mentioned earlier, just on record once again, Bishop, what are some of the critical issues that are yet to be discussed in these two weeks? And do you think the two weeks may be enough for them to be ironed and rich at consensus or a deal? Can be signed within two weeks, I optimistic? - Well, thank you very much. I want you to reiterate what Akrani have said about the actors, the conflict actors. You know, so we are familiar with mapping of conflict actors. We have done some mapping. There are actually basically four main groups, the Espelan government and NCP. You remember they went on to sign the CPA in 2005 and then led to our independence, 2011. So that group is Premai because they led the foundation for Saasuddin to become independent. And Kiyya, of course, was a mediator. At the same level there is Sombia now who is mediating a Tomini, was the one who did that. The next group is Espelan IG and Espelan IO. You know, when the war broke out December 2013, he got came in and brought these two groups together while the former detainees, Espelan former detainees. What we had there is the agreement, that is Arkes 2015. And then when the war assumed in June, I mean July 2016, we have the revitalized peace agreement which was signed on the 12th of September 2018. And then plus the extensions, two extensions so far. Now, we have the people who did not sign the Arkes, they are called our groups. The government not trying to rig them through a ROM forum. I remember they thought, first, it's their feet. The Saasuddin conscious actually loved it. The pop saw that this goal were called. They told leaders, the president, the first president plus two first presidents in. The affiliate were keys because they promised that they would work for peace to do the people. At least they laid almighty Sir Pannon who could bring me when he came back. He said, the pop, I should not speak much after the retreat. In the Vatican, he just said in Latin, bring peace to do your people. And then suddenly he knelt down to the surprise of all in all men. And they could do nothing. And some of them, from with that they are not converted. But one again politicians. You remember they came up to you but together we also Canterbury. And the Madreta were the percentage of Scotland. February 23 last year, all had to find out they have done nothing. - Mm-hmm. - Yes. Sunny, a gun is here. You will be using the same telephone. - Okay, no problem. - In this area. - Okay. - So now let me go to a question. These two weeks, will there be enough? Actually, we have done the confident building of this group, so you are here with us together the government delegation. Dosa Michael Murphy and the rest who came. They already resolved what they call a bitterness. What should have been done? This is a hand side. Similar things should have been done with us in Cuba. But we are assuming that maybe when we come back to Cuba, that is what we are going to do. Confident building, not only here. There are three stages, what they call pre-negotiation. Because if we did not do the pre-negotiation, the protocols which have been now, initial would not have been done. Now when you go back to Cuba, will not deal with what they called, if there is an agreement, will not do the confident building within the agreement itself. What we call post-conflict or post-negotiation. So what do you all have left? As far as we know, it's only the one protocol that is inclusive governance and resume sharing. I know that we have not got copies, but because now we interact with them freely during the day and they say actually they have exchange position papers. But the question has not been done. The reason why the government, the organization went back, is simply to keep guidance from the leaders. Unfortunately, as I speak now, I heard that there have not been allowed to speak. So if these leaders are really our leaders, let them allow this location to beat them. - Okay. Yes, like you said, honorable Pagani is joining you on your desk. Let's find out more from him as he settles for us to begin talking to him. We shall also be opening our line. Later, I don't know why I can call on 091-2067-879 and be part of our discussion. Yes, sir. Thank you so much, Pagani Mum, for joining us on our discussion today on this resumption of the Tumani Peace Initiative. Has the leader of the US government, the chairperson of the opposition hall that group, with this announcement that the Tumani Peace Initiative is assuming on Monday, what is the reaction of the opposition in Nairobi to this announcement? - Well, we met with President William Ruto when before he went to Cuba on the 6th and we made our position clear to him that we are here as the opposition on the table waiting for the government to come back for the signing of the Tumani any consensus because after we finalize the old eight protocols and have discussions on the responsibility sharing, the parties agreed for the government delegation to go back to Jupyter and make the final preparations and we have agreed that we, both the artygano and the opposition plus the other stakeholders have agreed that we will be signing the Tumani consensus on September the 16th, 2024, almost two months ago. But unfortunately, the government did not show up and we told President Ruto that we are still here patiently waiting for the government to come back to sign and we wanted to know when will we be able to sign the Tumani or what would be the future of the Tumani especially in light of the government sending out delegations to campaign against the Tumani from what we understand. So this resumption is good news. We are here waiting. We have already finished the negotiations. This is a time to finalize and now and sign the Tumani for us to prepare for the biggest effort of presenting this to our people, for our people to own and support the Tumani as well as also it is time after that to mobilize the region and the international community to bring support to the people of South Sudan to impeliment the Tumani to achieve peace and transition to democracy. - Okay, and like you said that you've already in these two weeks for you has the whole data group. What are the main issues you need to focus on so that you can reach a deal as it was supposed to have been done last month on the 16th of September? - We have no issues with exception of responsibility sharing. We have discussed all the protocols and agreed to them who was the government and basically we are ready to sign. I believe the government is also ready to sign. - Okay, and before we hear from the other members of this discussion like you rightly said last month the government in Cuba dispatched a delegation to a region and they went to Kenya and conveyed a document from President Kiel to President Ruto and later said to have explained its concern about some mechanisms in the Tumani peace protocols such as the National Leadership Council, the National Implementation Oversight Commission and the other bodies and the government delegation said anything already stipulated in the everybody's peace agreement should not be mentioned again in the Tumani protocols. As whole data group, are you willing to accept to renegotiate some of these contested peace mechanisms? - No, we are not here for renegotiation and reopening the negotiation will be wasting the time of the people of Sashodhan and it will be basically prolonging the suffering of our people. The Tumani consensus and the mechanism that are in it are mechanisms which they are agreed. This is not an agreement imposed or being imposed by anybody. It is not an agreement that the opposition or the other stakeholders are imposing on the government rather this is and these mechanisms are agreed mechanisms to address very specific problems that we are having. Remember that the RSS has not been implemented. The parties to the RSS have failed to implement the RSS over the last six years and they have extended themselves, they failed to implement. In our discussions, we ask ourselves what is making peace elusive in our country? How can we achieve peace? And how can we solve some of the weaknesses that we have witnessed in the failure to implement the agreements? And these mechanisms where these mechanisms were proposals that the parties have agreed to. And therefore, any attempt to renegotiate these mechanisms, it would only betray an intention to keep South Sudan in this confused situation and failure, not to achieve peace. - And according to many government officials here in Juba, the Two Mind Peace Initiative should be annexed to the 2018 peace agreement and not to replace its mechanism. And also the government want the current peace talks in Nairobi to complement and not to replace the 2018 peace deal. What is your take on that? What kind of agreement do you want, stand alone agreement from the Two Mind Peace Initiative or you want what is being discussed in Nairobi to be an annex to the 2018 Nairobi peace agreement? In your opinion. - Before I say my opinion, let me give you what the parties and the stakeholders have agreed to. We have agreed that the Two Minding will be composed of two parts basically. One, the RSS protocols or provisions that have not been implemented will be included in the Two Minding for the purpose of implementing them. And the other part are new protocols or provisions that are addressing either aspects of the same crisis or new crisis that have emerged that we need to focus on and we're not in the RSS. These are new provisions and protocols in the Two Minding in addition to the provisions of our RSS that have not been implemented. Therefore the Two Minding is inclusive of the RSS which has not been implemented. And new provisions, it is larger than the RSS itself because it is including the RSS. For the purposes of implementation, remember the parties to the RSS have failed to implement. This always is very important to underline. And we are here, we sat together with the representative of the Articono who are the signatories to the RSS and we have discussed how to implement those that have not been implemented from the RSS. Now, therefore it makes the Two Minding more inclusive and larger than the RSS itself, that have not been implemented. And we have agreed in addition to that, that we will now develop a stronger mechanism to ensure that we are able to implement the peace agreement this time round. - So mechanism like that. - Secondly, we have also agreed that we have agreed on other provisions that will ensure the support of the people of South Sudan to the Two Minding which is inclusive of both the RSS that is not implemented and new provisions. So that this time round with the support of our people who will be able to implement this peace agreement and achieve a transition to peace and democracy in our country. That is what has been agreed by the parties. Now, what you are telling me is that maybe the government is having a change of mind. Maybe they want to withdraw from what they have agreed to. And that would be very strange because president here when he came to Nairobi last time, he congratulated his team and instructed them to prepare, go to Juba and prepare for the signing that would be on the 16th of September. So we would be very much surprised if the government come back to say they want to renegotiate. It will mean really taking us back. And was that will be the beginning of showing bad faith? - All right, we'll be coming back to you shortly. Edmondia, first of all, we have seen this week the head of government delegation today to mine who was removed by the president in a presidential decree on the national broadcast. First of all, does that have any bearing on the peace process in Nairobi? - Thank you very much. It will and it will have. And I will add more on the ideas raised by Honorable Paggan in terms of the pathway or the phase two of too many mediation. First, I want to be strict and I want to speak to level of my engagement with separate party members in the government. And I'd like to bring to attention of Honorable Paggan that the artigano is composed of two competing parties. The two competing parties are, one in artigano, I term them as anti-tombani, one in artigano, I term them as pro-tombani. And I will go to just give a bit of identity, how the two are different identities. But let me come to your question. Yes, first this tells you very clear that one of these two teams that I've pronounced in the artigano is more influential than the other. So who do you think is influential than the other? Pro-tombani or anti-tombani? If you remember, when things get stuck, when president went, I don't know which Honorable Paggan have said, the congratulations. His ex and president, his team to come to Juba and when they come to Juba, they should go back for the signing. Remember prior to that, already one of the parts of artigano have withdrawn. They have withdrawn by the letter of his ex and first vice president, Yak Machard, made them withdraw. And that already that team was there. It was a merging issue. And automatically, some group from non-IO parties of art axis start joining the position that was expressed by I/O, that Tomani is coming with two threatening positions. And this is what I want Honorable Paggan to understand. The second position is what? Is that one? It's coming to replace art axis. That's one message. They are completely sending it to the principles. That is art axis. Secondly, it is actually some of the people whom they term them as opposition leader in I/O, they deserve not to have a return back to Juba through inclusive responsibility sharing and inclusive governance. So they should not be given any representation in the government. They should just come like any normal person because they have positions before that. They should come and read the good set of them here. Those are the two messages from the groups that come. So what happened? The two groups start dividing themselves parallel. What are the indicators? Here are the indicators. Number one, those who feel they are not for Tomani, they block the team that are put to mind. And this is what Bizopov alluded to, that he had the delegation government. Since they came here, they have not been allowed to speak, even if only to speak. They have not been allowed to meet the president until today we speak. But they managed to meet with the high level implementation of committee. Now, that is another level. Because the question is, who do we deal with? Who is having the appointing authority for final decision as a president? So even if you are a high level committee, you talk to the president at equal capacity of the delegates or the government needs to speak to the president. So that is very clear. So automatically you have two groups. One group says, look here, this, too many things is-- and let me tell you, and I also want to know, but again, to hear me there, to hear me there. Those who are anti-Tomani, this is their basis of argument. Their basis of argument is that one, Tomani is replacing our access. That is one thing that they expect. And they say there is any question. You have been in the area, is it the case? That's not the case. That's what in the beginning when I was speaking, that's not the case, and that's good. Now, on our partners with us, because there's a certain action, and I want to bring to on our partners that this comes from one eager. The deputy of the SBLF and deputy and the vice president. So I want to make it very clear. So the anti-Tomani argument is that one, three things have suffered from proper calls of Tomani, which some of them who actually went head on with them on a hard line. One, they say, Tomani have contradictions with our access. I ask them, what does contradictions mean? Two, they say, there's a hugely reputation of 60% on the proper calls of Tomani language, speaks the language of our access. Then three, they say there's a new ideas. Personally, I confronted them. I say, look here, when we are in Nairobi, we are negotiating Tomani. There are two basic principle references documents that were used in shaping the agenda. What are they? One is pagana, say it, our access, depending task of our access provisions. Number two, the DOP of Rome, which actually are going to sign with that reservation in Rome. Remember, there's the glass of principle. So normally, you see there's a quote that our access chapter for in relation to DOP numbers, so and so on. So why don't they reject right from that moment when the agenda is pronounced before us that actually the basis of generating, like the way how, I don't know, pagana have spoke, that the pending task of our access and then a new ideas that is responding to new margin conflicts. And actually, the new ideas, the margin to new conflicts is already based on the DOP of Rome, which has been used in that agenda. You come to rise to the total of our access, DOP numbers and so on. And the DOP, the article, no, sign it, not as a parties, as a government. So what happened? Automatically, the anti-Tomani group have taken dominance over the Prokumani group. So the Prokumani group are brought pending, they'll be pending by my friend. I've been interacting with them because I know them. They have no access to the top leadership of the country as those who constitute themselves as not for Pumani. And then start immediately the regional campaign. The regional campaign happened, come from there. So they're the south of the region. And for me, I think it's a hungover of not winning the regional campaign. Now, ambassador, they can't evict him. Okay. Now the question comes, who do we need to question here for the faith of Pumani? For me, we don't have to beat around the bush. The question directly goes to his excellency president. Okay. What does he want? Okay. Because even the two weeks that was, well, I took a bar to assign him what in, if the president does not make a clear position, the still people who may be spoilers may come in and give a wrong interpretation. Okay. Now, okay, before we hear from Bishop, now that the mediators have announced that talks begins on Monday next week, and now the government delegation is yet to go back. Do you think that will have some kind of impact on the peace process or the mediation process, because both sides need to be around, including the religious leaders and all these-- The stakeholders. So do you think the president is more likely to reconstitute or to appoint a new head of government delegation as soon as possible? Obviously, based on the letter from the chief mediator, that would extend that to the parties through Nairobi Peace Talk, which is the opposition with the non-signator and the article and the stakeholders on the 11th, we're going to resume. The government need to appoint a team leader, but my problem is that the government will drag their fits between the two camps pooling of rocks, which one does his actions president won't respond to? Does he want to respond to the interests of the anti-domini or pro-domini, because both camps are now maybe campaigning and sending charges. But here is if the fee I have, the fee I have already had what honorable Pagan have said, is not in negotiation of, of article no. I'm quite sure if honorable Pagan is to see a face of anti-domini player, his political position and his political attitudes may change. That's the truth. That's the truth that I have to speak about. Even with myself, even to go back to Nairobi and I see somebody who's anti-domini that I know is put before me. Actually, it means we're sending a signal, we don't need it, and 12. And the consequence I asked for, I want to make it clear, the consequence of the failure of homini is a political plus for the opposition who are non-signator to our access in Nairobi, like honorable Pagan. And it is a complete subtraction of a big negative against pass the faith of the president in extending an invitation to his counterpart, Ula Muto, and the faith of the government. So he says as a president, need to take a decision of shaping things for success, not shaping things for failure. It means he need to appoint a team leader that is heading towards success, not failure. Any failure, it is a big consequence on him negatively and a big gain for the opposition in Nairobi. He's a politics, we're not speaking anything. - All right, Bishop N. October has a religious leader involved in the two-minute initiative. Do you believe that building trust among the parties is very crucial? Most especially in the light of the reported tension within the government delegation. - Well, I already answered that question, that when we came here, the 21st of May, we found the concentration already began, since the 9th of May, so the chief medical actually told us that during the briefing, the disabled have a trust deficit, they don't trust each other. What should he do? We just say, just give us two days, we talk as South Sudanese, because our culture doesn't allow anyone of us to permit in public, particularly to strangers. So he gave us two days, and then we said, now what is the problem? The government side and then the abortion side, and they start really permitting. For example, some talk even for more than one hour, pointing fingers to the other side. So we had three secretaries, even Adam and your economy were one of them, representing the stakeholders, and then we are secondary each from the government and the opposition. So they were noting their points. Eventually we came out with that protocol, a confident building with a 12 issues of conflict, where they don't trust each other. After that, we say, okay, why don't you put it in the matrix form? Actually, this is the first protocol. Without that protocol, this eight protocol we have been initial wouldn't have been dealt with. Even the other three have been discovered, but not yet initial. So it's all remaining in this one. So what do you have with that? If the government delegation comes, regardless of who they are, whether they're newcomers or they're the old one, preferably as a church, would have preferred those who have already gone through the process. You know, if you bring a sick person, and you have to start all over again, the three teams are not good. Bring those who have been healed already. So they finish this protocol. What is needed is thus, let the government give guidance to this group on the power sharing. And if you listen to Lamma Cole, which is among the high level standing committee, he said actually he had no problem with what he called the Democratic government. What is important in the percentages? If it is 100%, you divide the percentages. And then it's not a question of position. It's the question of peace for our people. The question is stability for the country. The issue of economy is not about positions. So let them be very serious. It's not the time of joking. It's the issue of life, and that's for the people. - Okay, and you are talking to us at the venue of the talks in Nairobi. From what you are seeing, and hearing the people you are interacting with, with this announcement are all the members who are there with you before this peace process came to stand still. Are they all back in Nairobi at the moment? - They have never left. Only a few who went, for example, quite like where he went to see his family in Kapala. He's here, I'm just listening to you now. Rajab was also went to the family. He's here, he's the only one helping me technically. We have two members in Juba from the stake holders. Nagomoro, and then I said, Jeremy, I've told them to come. So they said they are still waiting. As soon as the government will come to the plane, they will just follow. So we have been waiting here. You know, we have not gone anywhere. - All right, let's find out more from Honorable Pagana-Mum on this crucial topic about. First of all, according to the communicator that came up from this week's meeting between President Kerry and President William Rotom, the two heads of state agreed to secure original endorsement for the too many initiative, and then asked Igor to mobilize enough resources and Ghana international support. First of all, Honorable Pagana, what is your reaction to this? You talked about it earlier, but now it has come from the two heads of state asking for original support and also the international support. What is your reaction and how important is this to have the backing of Igor on this to my initiative? - When we finalize the discussion on the protocol, we have also discussed support from our people, for the too many. We have discussed regional and international support for the too many. And they have agreed on a number of programs which are now in the matrix for implementation. And these are specifically part of the agreement, is that this too many consensus must get the support from the East African region. They got countries, the African Union and from the international community, the UN and the international community. And actually President Keir and President William Rutu have agreed that they will use their international engagement in different order like the China-Africa Forum to engage both the leaders of the region. And I believe that is what they did in Beijing. Also, that was agreed that when the two governments delegation go to the UN General Assembly meeting, they would be engaging at the level of the UN and with all the members to get their support to the Tomahini, which President William Rutu have done with his team, actually part of his team were from the Secretariat of the Tomahini. And so these were agreed earlier as part of the Tomahini final estate to gunner support and mobilize support from the UN and the international community, including EGOT. And that is also, after designing, we will be moving to mobilize much more further support. What is very unfortunate is that the current confusing position of the government is undermining the support to Tomahini, because it is making others who have shown their support or expressed their support to doubt whether the government is committed to the Tomahini or not. By having different voices or two distinct voices, the government negotiated here and there is another team that is expressing views that are anti-Tomahini and against the Tomahini and it is the same government. It will be more advisable in the interest of peace for our people and to rescue our people from the difficult situation we are in for the government really to be united behind their position to support the Tomahini. There's one point that was mentioned by my brother, Ed Mani Akkani, and I agree with what he has said, given the development in Juba. The idea that the Tomahini is replicating their assets, actually, we are not replicating their assets. It was the government itself when they made the assessment that 90% of the RRCs have not been implemented and that what they want is to implement the RRCs. We said that's fine. The Tomahini is here to implement the RRCs as well as the new provisions and protocols that we have mentioned earlier. So, when we include the provisions and program of RRCs that have not been implemented in the Tomahini, the purpose and the objective is to implement them, is to mobilize resources, use the Tomahini to mobilize resources for the implementation of the RRCs provisions that have not been implemented. And I'm sure if they are for the RRCs, why would they refuse the Tomahini to help in the implementation of RRCs, which is what they wanted? The government is formed on that basis. It is not to replace them. It is to implement. - Okay, the question, I don't know about Pagan, many senior government officials have interacted with, he and Juba are saying that these same partners, the international partners who are willing to support or who are showing their support for the Tomahini, that they are willing to fund the Tomahini, why is it very difficult for them to support the RRCs rather than supporting the Tomahini? Why can't they really inject the much needed fund on the RRCs rather than saying, "Now, okay, we are here now to support the Tomahini." Why? - This is a very important and good question. And this is a question that the Artiguno, and the part is the Artiguno should answer. But let me try to answer because that is their business, between them and the international community. But I think the Artiguno have failed to implement the RRCs, have misused the resources that they have earmarked to implement the RRCs, and the Artiguno has lost credibility in the eyes of our people, as well as in the eyes of the international community. And they have began to withdraw their support to the Artiguno to implement their RRCs. Because even the Artiguno leaders themselves are saying that this agreement is not designed to be implemented, others are saying that there is no political will to implement their RRCs. Now, when you are having different position and against each other, and you are dysfunctional, and you are misusing your own resources, why would you think that somebody can help you? Now the international community want to help our people to achieve peace and transition to democracy. What do they see in Tomahini? They see an opportunity to achieve peace beyond what the Artiguno have been doing in the last six years. - All right. - Or all the transitional governments before. Now, this is an opportunity, but what is Artiguno? Tomahini, Tomahini is not an opposition baby. Tomahini is Artiguno child. They are the one who brought it forward. They are the one who negotiated it. They are the one who developed all its provisions. And I'm saying, looking the SPLMAO. Okay. Yes, we will be getting back to you shortly as we continue in the next hour. As our discussion continues, let's take a break, we'll be back. Stay tuned. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the second hour of The Round Table. My name is Sanny Martin. You are coming to your life from our Juba during this round table. I have three of my guests with us here in the studio. We are discussing the resumption of the Tomahini Peace Initiative in the Kenyan capital of Nairobi. As a communicated in a document that has been seen by Redimera by the chief mediator yesterday that the Tomahini Peace Initiative will be resuming on Monday and next week. And this is as per the directive of the two heads of state of Kenya and South London is the met here in Juba. This week where they were given two weeks to iron out some of these outstanding issues before a peace deal is signed. And we have been talking to Honorable Pagana-Mum who is the chairperson of the person who holds that group and the leader of the Radio Spellum party. And I also have Bishop N. October who is the representative of the face-based group and the South London Council of Catches, Ed Monyakani, executive director of the community empowerment for progress organization, SIPO. And like I said in the beginning of our discussion today that Redimera also extended invitation to Honorable Podkang who is a member of the high-level implementation committee and the senior member of the S-PELM, IO to join us in our discussion. And I got a text message that his schedule is so tight that he can't come for our discussion today but he promised to come some other time to share the views of the government. They would have been here to discuss with us. And before we went for a break, Ed Monyakani, I want to ask the same question because like I said, many government officials I have talked to here in Juba, they always say, look, Sanny, we have no problem with the two Monyakani. As long as it's going to be an annex to the RRCs but their concern is then support now coming up for the two Monyakani by the international partners. They are saying these same people who are expressing their support financially more or in other way did not sign the 2018 agreement, they didn't sign it. And even they did not endorse the recent extension by the RRC going. The question they're asking, why are they coming forward to now express their support to the two Monyakani? What is the hidden agenda? Even you, you asked the same question. - Let me attempt to answer this question based on the facts that I have primarily from my own sources, one. If we go back where this process started, this process started during the spiritual retreat that was held in Rome, what in October I have mentioned, I don't repeat that. And it is a request of the two principalizations, the president's first vice president that we need to continue engaging on peace process to bring in the non-signatories. And that's where Rome was initiated, DOP was signed in Rome. And if you see where we are now with a political transition in the country, it's very clear that some of the inspiration and trying in our access, in the provisional our access, cannot be delivered with the political attitude that we have with majority of the people in the incumbent government. So now for the sake of creating peace and stability for the citizen, there are certain top priorities that don't a committee want to see. What are they? Don't a committee want to see a political transitional process that lead to the creation of a good enough condition for holding peaceful and nonviolent elections. And that is based on the following milestone. Milestone number one, there should be a permanent constitution that commission elections and this permanent constitution will have a provision that will bring in electoral dispute resolution in terms of judiciary reform. That's one milestone. The second milestone is that you have a very unified forces that have no affiliation to any political color so that when you go for election, they protect the constitution and save the protection of the citizen without taking side with any political act in that process. That is the second milestone. The third milestone, it is that you want to see electoral processes that happen where citizens are free to decide on who are their next leaders. And this bill, huge, let me say this bill almost 80% are too mainly focused. So too much focus on the too much responsibilities, much of my focus on how do we transition in the country, how do we transition in the country through elections where we can have an exercise of power transferred from one individual to another individual from one group to another group peacefully. And that's what mine was getting told. That's why it seemed to me any constitution-making process is a priority. Unification of forces is a top priority and then making sure that there's a commitment towards creating a conditional environment for the election through the electoral process is a priority. It's a financial reforms is a priority. So that is where they don't say, okay, here is an opportunity as per God have said, here's an opportunity that if we gain political attitude change from South Carolina political leaders to come out of the framework that is implementable to deliver these milestones, the safety and the protection of the citizens of South Sudan is very important. Is a priority. Why? Because they are funding, by the way, dollars have not left South Sudan. They have left sending their money directly to the government. They cannot finance the government, but they have not withdrew from South Sudan. Who is financing the humanitarian? You can see the declares on the middle of dollars for humanitarian aid. Still, the Donald Committee of the city of South Sudan, but unfortunately, they decided not to channel their money directly to the government. That's it. (speaking in foreign language) What is going on now, the likelihood of appointment of a person to replace the team leader of the government is determined by a consensus ritual within the two camps of artygano that have separate interpretation. And remember, I've mentioned for you, what is X and one egg have taken up as pro-tumani. Where one egg even go? Is a funeral, you say there are leaders in the artygano be so much mine, they are pro-affin. If it's a funeral, by the way, if it's a funeral, use that message. Once a wedding, use that message. If it's a party, you use that message. One egg becoming pro-tumani by saying, the problem to mine is actually not the provinocor. It is a fear of those who feel that if the mind is signed, they're going to lose their jobs. - So what kind of person do you want the president to appoint as the head of government delegation? Because the peace talk is assuming next week. - President have to appoint somebody that provides an answer to the concerns raised by somebody. That means somebody who is neutral to these two camps of the government, somebody who is working for success with the opposition. Because what is the ultimate goal? The ultimate goal is that we need to have peace and security in the country. And how do we have peace and security in the country? We need to have an inclusive political processes. And part of tumani is building an inclusive, political process that is going to come in. But unfortunately, if president want to hear the voices of those who feel that actual day losing job should continue sustaining political instability, that is the weakness. So principal bring somebody who will go, because let me tell you, this is the same. I want to bring to attention. And I hope that one of the partners listening. I'm aware they are people in artigan who have redrafted the nine protocols on what basis. They have redrafted the nine protocols are one. This not only does you cancel, get it out, because it's contradicting the power of the presidency. This natural implementation mechanism, we don't want it. Because some people are used to eating money in the name of the peace agreement implementation for the last five years. Now imagine you have several servants 11 months without salaries, but you're able to board business class KQ rotating in the region, telling people we don't want to money. Where do you get the money for getting a business class A ticket to travel to these capitals? Is Z a crime for its exen president to take a form and call him a civilian? Is it a crime? Is it not possible for his exen president to take a form called Prime Minister of Ethiopia? Why do you have a delegation in the business class? A ticket would 11 months, seven servants have no salaries. And here I was saying, we don't have money to implement a given. Where do you get the money for tickets? This one too. Remember when his exen president shown in the current means of finance, what is it that means of finance? He told him it's a finance that I as a president, I'm aware that from the none all revenue sources, there are enough money. The problem is there are too many pockets. So I mandated you go and centralize, have one account. So if the V8s can run in Cuba every day for Monday to Sunday without being stopped because there's no fuel, why there's no money for the agreement? The question is, the political commitment is being shaken, is being disturbed by people who survived through our suffering. So president need to distant these politicians who want to live in the government through the suffering of the citizen and the politicians who survived through the confusion of president and first vice president. The more they're confused for them, it's a good project of traveling and buying a lot of dialogue, budgets and all this. So for me, it's a leadership issue. The leaders have to decide, get somebody who want to fix this country through to my knee, not anybody. Okay, our lines are now open. You can call us on 0912067879 or 091206929 or you can also call us on 0912068101. Those are all our lines. Or you can also visit our Facebook page and then drop your comment or question there. I will be reading some of them. Has they come in right here in the studio? I have Ed Monie Akani who is the executive director of community empowerment for progress organization. SIPO, who is with me here in the studio and on the line from Nairobi, I have Honorable Pakana-Mum with the chairperson of the Apperson Hall that group and leader of the religious Palam party. Bishop, in October, is representative of the first base group to the Tomine Peace Initiative. And we are looking at the resumption of the Tomine Peace Initiative in Nairobi, Kenya. Next week has communicated by the chief mediator yesterday in a letter that has been seen by Ray de Meera. And this has part of the directive of the meeting that was here in Dubai this week between the president's alfakir Mayarid and the Kenyan president, William Ruto, where the parties were given two weeks to iron out the outstanding issues that can pave way for a deal to be signed like you had from Pakana-Mum that the deal was supposed to have been signed on the 16th of September last month. But nothing happened. And now you can call us and ask your questions and we will be putting them to our guests all right here. Hello, I'm Ray de Meera. Hello. [INAUDIBLE] Yes, your name? [INAUDIBLE] [INAUDIBLE] OK, go ahead and start to leave with your question. I have two questions. One, two, one, two, three, and one, two, three, one. OK, go ahead. Yeah, two, three, I quoted him saying that there are some government members who are de-containing the [INAUDIBLE] how can you put fire on your own house if there were the ones in teaching the [INAUDIBLE] OK. So to Edmond, now, how many agreements lie ahead of us so that we can see the permanent peace in South Sudan? How many agreements are still ahead? All right. Thank you so much. I'm Stas Levy from Mary, the county of Western Dakota State. Hello, I'm Ray. Hello. Good morning. Good morning to you. Yeah, this is John. I'm calling from Dubai here. OK, John from Dubai, go ahead and do the question. Yeah, thank you. First of all, welcome back. San imagine it has been long. OK, thank you. Stay out of this studio. I'm happy that you have a whole new propaganda online and also Edmond, Yakhani, and our bishop. San imagine, you know, we, the suffering of South Sudanese people are like a stroke of sheep left in the wilderness without a shepherd. Because it has known to us, no matter how much these leaders talk, we have known their characters. We have known, you know, their way of doing things. And we have completely lost track in them, both in the opposition and also in the government. The reason I'm saying this is the fact that any agreement focused on power sharing between the elites rather than addressing the root causes of the conflict will only have a problem to implement. Because the mega debate is always rounded off on who gets what in terms of power sharing rather than addressing the underlying issue that are facing the people of South Sudan. And then, too, failure also to address the fundamental issues like economic, political marginalized, discrimination. And even development issues have not been adequately addressed in all disagreements. And this is where we know we have seen that a lot of issues have been dragging on. Because people are discussing on what will favor them. I have heard, you know, from Honobo Pagan saying that that access has not been implemented because it has failed. Because the issue is that they want to position themselves so that, you know, to mine, it seems to be the only binding agreement that will work over the disagreement. So that, you know, the current people that are holding position, you know, can go. That's why now everyone is clinking on their position. That means the interest of the people that are suffering has been ignored. But they are only centering this agreement on the power sharing. And I have two questions. And I would wish if there was a government representative in this studio. Yes, we had invited them. But they said they are scared to the store guy. Yes, I have heard, you know, when you were saying this. Number one question is going to pardon and also to some who will answer even out of this studio. Is that when will you, Honobo Pagan, like South Denis leaders, when will you realize that the entire region, the African community, the African Union, the regard, including international community, are tight of your life, are tight of all that you have been doing. We have neglected your people to the cause. Pagan, if this was the nature during the 20 years of civil war in South Sudan, many families would not have named their children after you. If you go to Mumbai, there are so many Pagan, that I cannot even count, that I named after you, that you have neglected them. A thousand of them out there in different region. These questions go to you as leaders. Number two, when will you as our leaders look into the eyes of the suffering south of the need? And at least say one day, no, we have gone too far, enough is enough. Let our people enjoy the lasting peace, one time for all. When will you realize that? You have seen the region, the other regionally, that they are always the one knocking at your door. But what you should do for your own people rather than you? When will you do that? That's only that, not only specifically you, but as South Denis leaders, you have seen, you know, the Gen Z crisis that happened in Kenya. How long did he take in and to address? It was just a matter of one month, or it was even a matter of weeks. And they sat down, they say, no, let's do what our people want, not what we at leader want. Thank you. All right, thank you so much. John, yes, we have a couple of questions here coming via our Facebook page. And most of them, we have three questions to Honorable Paganamom, maybe you can take a seat and try to answer some of these questions here. And Adimani Akani, you will also answer this question that was directed to you by Ostras Levi. How many agreements would you want to see in this country to have a sustainable peace? Because so many agreements have been signed, less honored. We have had this statement before. If you can begin as we go to Honorable Paganamom to answer the rest of the questions, let's begin. Yes, as I said, so many agreements were signed and they are dishonored. Why? Simply, we have a political elites class that take their personal interests as the top priority above the interests of the nation. We have fought for where we have lost life of 4 million. Among these political elites that today are dragging fits was not part of the government. And who among them can come to the public and say, I'm an honest and a transparent person since 2005, when the government of South Florida was established until the independence, I'm clean in my books without tempering anything, none of them, all of them are the same faces, they are changing their colors. That's one thing I'd like to make it forward. Now, we are going to have peace in pieces because this is the culture of our political elites that they want to take this country, peace must be in pieces. So you have the first piece of our access, which was stabilized. The second piece is the Tomaini. The third piece is going to be, when are we going to have Thomas Rilo, Ajawin, Emana Ajawin, and then you have Simon Garuitar, a second piece of an agreement. And still, you feel free in the Boucher, the comedian, by the way. You may undermine him, but sometimes you come back, hey, this comedian is also another headache. Let's have another talk with him. It's another piece. And remember, we have the pieces of Pettiguan with General Johnson, who got disappeared. Don't know why, if we don't talk about this, that argument is only power, and then that is done. So we have a class of political leaders that would believe that what they say is should be the interest of the citizen, what the citizens say, they don't care about it. So this is the class of the politicians' wealth today. Imagine, somebody can tell you, we are in a debate of the nation, we are talking about lives of a citizen, but you say my cedar is short. My friend, and this is only this one. There's so many of them. There are so many of them. Remember, we have been discussing calling for the presidency to meet several times to make decisions on the faith of the transition, but look at the marathon that they did for us, a marathon that even contradicted the legal framework of the country, on the extension, which everybody's disappointed with it. How was the parliament? They don't say you can do constitutional amendment in two months, but because their power, their political legitimacy is under question, they did for this first time in the history of democracy, running a constitutional amendment bill in four hours, everything is endorsed, endorsed, endorsed, endorsed. Why are they not translating that endorsement into funding the agreement? So they'll tell you there's no money here for the agreement, but you see, there's so many political rallies going. People are buying tickets, matching. You have seen what happened and why, you have seen what happened in the couture here, but they'll tell you there's no money. Where does that money come from? That's the point. So for me, we're going to have much, until when our political leaders, this is my message to the answer as some of the answer, until our political leaders change their political attitudes and they believe that the power of deciding public governance lies with the citizen, does not lie with the doctrine, those who claim that doctors, they are what, some of them believe as they have hijacked in the country and the citizen, and what they say it should be their opinion. That is wrong. That's the sense of crisis in Sudan, that made us to go to Bush. Now we have the same mindset of the politicians make us to go to Bush. Some of these politicians make us, some of these want to say, political solution, you know, the solution, your financial solution, another brigadier general in the Bush and you come back and those who come back and you'll get the government. Simply, our political leaders need to change their attitudes and put the citizen number one, otherwise if there's a tender, that is coming, I know Bush would agree with that, but I will really cast them, that let go, take them peacefully with our bullets, let them go to heaven and leave us as we want, because we have suffered, we have. Look at the citizens in the water, the floods. So it's a political attitude case for political leaders. Until they forget their personal grievances, this country will never be in peace, thank you. - Yes, for again you have a couple of questions here. Let me begin by those who are coming by our SMS. This is coming from (speaking in foreign language) in Yay River County, of Central Kottore State here. And he says, my question goes to Honorable Pagana-Mum. The issue is that to my initiative is to bring lasting peace in South Sudan, but it seems like it is not very inclusive because of the absence of what Thomas Cyrillo is not involved. And other grievances, okay, and other people who have grievances against the government of South Sudan like others. He says, okay, he's asking, why is Thomas Cyrillo not involved in this to many peace initiative and also Simon Gattwitt, so that they have their own same and you have a lasting peace in South Sudan. That's from Mulwate, Sadaraka in Yay River County. And then another question here is asking about, this is from David. Who will be the guarantors of these to many peace initiative? This is the question he is asking. Who will be the guarantor of this peace accord? Since the citizens have lost hope from both the government and its opponent and he won't really find out who will be the guarantor of what is to many peace initiative if any deal is a sign. David Dow at 10 is asking, will the whole that group return to Dubai immediately after the signing of any deal in Nairobi? That is coming from David Dow. And another question here is asking. We had not confirmed that there was supposed to be a confident building visit by all the group in Nairobi to Juba. All of you are supposed to come to Juba for a confident trust building. Is that still standing before any deal is signed? That's from Jackson in Juba, also going to Paganamom. Another question going to Paganamom still is from Joe. Joe is asking from writing from Kwajok in our upstate. What will be the difference between the current everybody like peace agreement and to many peace initiative? Is there any difference? Once a deal is signed, that's from Joe. And finally, still to Paganamom, where are the senti gidio in this peace process? Are they still part of the too many peace initiative in Nairobi or not? As from then in Juba here. Plus, the two question that came from Joan in Juba here asking about people are really tired enough is enough. Many kids who are named after you in Lake State, for example, you find a lot of Pagans in Lake State, but still many people have really lost hope when will the leader say enough is enough and ensure that peace prevails inside. So then he's not only asking you, but the leaders of South Sudan. Yes, they follow you as. - Thank you very much. - How do you want? Is there the only one? - Yes, go ahead. - Okay. The question of loyalty, yes, this, the donating is, is actually a rescue plan for South Sudan. Because of many agreements have not been implemented and the country has been in crisis. The state has become a fairly state and we are in multiple crisis. Our people are today, in probably the worst humanitarian crisis with hunger all over the country. Our food security system has collapsed, especially in the countryside. And most of our people now are depending on humanitarian assistance. And that is a crisis. Even to take humanitarian assistance for the needy people, even the humanitarian workers are working under very dangerous conditions. A lot of attacks on them, a lot of looting, of relief. The country today is also in probably the worst climate change crisis this year. Our country more than seven states and two administrative areas. I submerged underwater because of heavy floods that have been following our people. And many of our people are now squirting in few high grounds where their rebel others are literally plotting, building, floating platforms to be on. And they have no humanitarian assistance. As you know, the world is facing many crisis in the world. And South Sudan is not getting the, not only the attention, but also is not receiving the humanitarian assistance that our people are in need of. But this is also because our government is not mobilizing. It's France or the rest of the world. And not even talking about the floods that are existing now or about the famine that the country is getting into or has been in actually. And that is very unfortunate. When the government does not care about its citizens and the lives and the dangers they are in, it's very unfortunate. The government is there to serve the people. And now on the question, why are those of Thomas and Garweidwald not here, not involved? Well, they have invited Thomas and those of Emmanuel and others have been invited to come and participate just like us. We receive the same letters from his excellency, President William Roto, which has to come. Of course, there is a number of concerns, including the security of the delegates, whether this mediation is genuine, whether the government of South Sudan initiative to ask Kenya is in good place or not, especially that the government walked out from Rome without even notice to the opposition, to the parties that were there or to the Santagillio community. All that led them to decide not to participate, but they were invited and they chose not to come. They can explain more if you ask them. That is why they are not here. But the fact that they were invited, this is this I can confirm to you, but they decided not to come. I believe, General Garweidwald and SPLM, IO could be going under his command or leadership, were invited and were communicated with the communicating with the mediators, but I believe given where he was, I think he was having difficulty of movement to come to where the talks are. That is what I can say about the non-embulment of these opposition groups. We are here, we have negotiated this as a rescue plan for the country. Our country really is in danger of collapsing into chaos and disintegrating. And it is time for us to really be united and focused on the people and alleviating the suffering of our people and taking our country out of this. If we do not unite and if we do not take responsibility, all of us are citizens of Sashodhan, not only the political elites, but all of us are citizens of Sashodhan, all these stakeholders. We have to unite and rescue our country, otherwise we will not have even a country if this continues. On the question of who are the grantors of the Tomahini Consensus and the agreement, there are, we have agreed on a set of granteeing of the agreement, internal grantors, that is, we have created a body to ensure and guarantee the implementation of the agreement and the highest is the National Leadership Council, which will bring in the leadership of the current government, the leadership of the opposition and participation of other stakeholders in it. And this will be an internal grantor to make sure that it follows the implementation of the agreement and address whatever problems that we may have in the implementation immediately. And this is a body that some are now from within the government are trying to oppose, but this is a very important mechanism to ensure the implementation of the Tomahini Consensus. There are regional and international grantors composed of the East African community, a guard, the African Union, particularly the C5 from South Sudan and the UN, the international, the Troika, the European Union, Japan, China and others are also being invited to grantee the implementation of the agreement, as well as also to support the implementation of the agreement and Kenya would be the convener of these regional and international grantor. These are very important mechanisms and institutions that are being created to ensure full implementation. These are things, or these are institutions that the UNR so select because it was finalized on Khartoum and negotiate the final stages of negotiation with Khartoum. And because of the nature of the regime in Khartoum, as well as also because of the associated agreements to the RRCs, it could not be supported by the Troika, the European Union and others. And this is something that we are correcting with the Tomany. Another thing to ensure also and guarantee implementation is that we have created other structures like the NIOC and this body will ensure first of all transparent management of own sources and will create an environment to encourage donors to support the implementation of Tomany, something which the RRCs did not have or the signature is to RRCs did not think about. The way the Arctic UNR was formed was a lot of delays. I think much time was wasted and a lot of momentum was lost. And that is one of the problems that led to new implementation of the RRCs. We are learning lessons from those. One question that was asked by David Dow, will the opposition return to Juba immediately after the signing or after the, absolutely the opposition will come back to Juba and will come back to Juba and to all parts of Amsterdam to go and present the Tomany together with the other signatories of the Tomany to the people and mobilize support of the people for the people also to own this Tomany because without the people supporting and owning the Tomany it will not be implemented. If you leave it to the political elites or the political class alone, then you will be making a mistake. The people must take responsibility. It is, this country does not belong to the political elites. It belongs to the people of Amsterdam. - Right. And there was discussion of-- - About the visit? - Yes, the visit. - Yes, about the confidence building, confidence building majors visit to Juba. Yes, it was explained and we have agreed to it, but unfortunately it has been taken by event and especially by the different voices emerging within the government. And I think the little confidence that we have achieved in the Tomany has been also exhausted and the goodwill that was developed has been consumed by the confusing position of the government honestly. At least I can say this from one side. What is the difference between the Tomany and the other agreements? The difference is that the Tomany consensus is arrived at having learned lessons from the failure of implementation of the other agreements. And this is a wisdom by all the stakeholders, all the parties including the government because this is our common experience. The failures of building peace or keeping transition to democracy are our failures and they give us valuable lessons. When you fail in something, failure is not bad because it is also a good teacher, we now know there is another way to do it to succeed. And so that is the difference. Is that the UDO, what is the UDO you ask? Yes, and the UDO is a co-mediator of the Tomany consensus itself. They are supporting, the Kenyan mediation and both of them together, they are co-mediators with something UDO. Thank you very much. I hope I answered all the questions. Yes, our lines are still open. You can call us on 091, 206, 78, 79 or 091, 206, 79, 29, or you can also call us on 091, 206, 8, 101, those are all our lines. You can call and be part of our discussion right here on the roundtable discussion with me, Sany Martin, and I have three guests with me on this important discussion on the resumption of the Tomany peace initiative in Iraq. Kenya next week has been the directives of the two heads of the state of Kenya and South Carolina when they met in Juba this week and directed the mediators to reconvene these peace initiative within two weeks and iron out some of the outstanding issues. And according to our earlier discussion, there are only two outstanding issues that is to be discussed, that is inclusive governance and the responsibility sharing. You can call us and be part of our discussion. Hello, hello. (speaks in foreign language) Hello. (speaks in foreign language) Hello. (speaks in foreign language) Yes, morning to you. (speaks in foreign language) Okay, David, go ahead. Let me welcome your guest to the studio. We have appreciated one for really standing with us today and explaining everything. We were about to accuse him, but now he's representing the citizen. My question is going direct on the stuff again. You report one year for the people of South Sudan to be free and got in the fund. And fortunately, you people who were fighting for the freedom created the poverty, the death and the suffering of the people of South Sudan. Is this a South Sudan we want, why you are suffering of? Or does it mean you are fighting for leadership? Because we are not assured now, oh, the rebels who are repulsed against the government, are the people who are removed from the position? They started from Dr. Yang, coming to you, going to the world like to material and the rest, they were only repulsed against the government because they were removed from position. They did not repulsed against the government because of the change that the relationship has failed, not rule the country in a good manner. This is number one. Number two, coming to Admonia Khan. You have known that all our politicians are only need to be accommodated in position. They don't care about the citizen. Do we have to have our agreement as a citizen of the nation to the government of national unity? Because now we don't see our rights. The people of rebels are killing us. The government who is now with us is not paying us and is not even protecting us. Do we need to have our own agreement as a citizen of the nation, to the government of national unity or not? Going to the church. The church is now becoming part of politics. He is not even complaining for the peace in the country and he is not even talking directly to the president so that he can make order either to cancel the agreement or to bring another change in the country. So we don't see people are dying of hunger. Some people are now within the water. There are no medicine in the hospitals. The schools are being closed, including the universities. Where is the role of the church here? - Okay. - Thank you. - Thank you so much David from WOW. Hello? Hello? - Yes, good evening. - Good morning. - Good morning, I mean. - Okay, your name? - Yeah, we are talking to politics here in Cuba. - Okay, quality from Cuba, go ahead. - Yeah, my question is going there. I have only two questions. One question to all of us again and one question to Hidman Markhan and his logic. My question to one of forgotten me. Why every politician in this country turn to the opposition whenever he or he is running for a means of positions and looking for round table talks abroad, do you really seek political position to save the citizens of this nation or to save your own interests? That is one. Two, Mr. Hidman Markhan and you are logic. You are the eye of the youth of different nations. Do you really see the possibility of this whole our groups coming back to the Cuba after the signing of this peace agreement? Those are my questions and thank you. - Okay, quality from Cuba here. Hello? Hello? - Hello Markhan, good morning. - Morning to you, Isaac. - Thank you, thank you for the conditions. I really appreciate this, Isaac. (speaking foreign language) I have some two questions to our guests in the studio. My first question is going to direct to Pagana Mon. Pagana Mon has been one of the key, I mean, key figure in the (speaking foreign language) and I don't know what made him exactly to extend himself out from the political issues in South Sudan, especially by running out from the country. If we won't let him clarify, if he was excels by anybody in the government, let him go and also form other fraud, because, and most of them have been suffering, really, bringing out the country and yet having any differences because of the fighting, the court were... (sighs) The people, one people, why do they fight in the, in the rest of the time? And then they now, they want to divide it into the country, into many pieces, as citizens are suffering. If you can see now with the citizen, we are the graduate and we have nothing to be employed. When should we, when should they accept the new token occurrence of this country that will remain for other generation of this country to be given a chance? My last question is, when is him alone, Pagana Mom will come to you by so that the citizen also will have a threat on him that we really see if Pagana and Pagana is ready for fees then to let them talk in a far distance. - Okay, thank you so much, Isaac. We have asked this last one, also going to Honorable Pagana Mom, this is coming from a unity state. This is from Malakal, my name is Pita. I am writing from Malakal, up on our state, my question goes to Pagana Mom, and he's asking Honorable Pagana, why is the two mighty peace initiative seen is the only viable way to a lasting peace in the country, yet we have an agreement being implemented in the country. That's from Pita in Malakal, up on our state. Let's begin with it because we have only left about 10 minutes if you can answer these questions briefly, before we conclude our discussion. Yes, go ahead, Honorable Pagana. - Okay, thank you. There was a question by one of our competitors in WoW, that we fought for the country, but now we have created poverty and co-suffering to our people and that we failed to bring leadership and we divide ourself and struggle for power. First of all, it is very unfortunate that we as our Sudanese after our independence did not go in the direction of building a state and building a nation. A nation that we fought for and that we struggled for. As a people, we had a dream from generation to generation that we want to have our own state. We want to have our own country where would be its citizens with equal rights and duties and will full dignity. That is what we struggled for. The SPLM lost its vision and direction and this was an issue that was being discussed in the leadership of SPLM even when I was the secretary general and arising from these discussions, when we were saying that the leadership has lost direction and lost vision, we need to return to the vision, we need to correct ourselves. That brought discussion and unfortunately, violence was introduced into those political discussions which were aimed at reorganizing the SPLM and returning it to its vision. Where I ended up being retained and arrested and charged with treason and all this, even though the case of the government failed in the court and we defeated the government and we were able to be set free. That is how it was accepted. I was exiled. Before the statement, I was exiled out of the country by the government. Then we entered into discussion and negotiations where in Arusha, we discussed about the unification of the SPLM and returning it to its vision. And on that basis, I was reinstated back to my position. If you remember in 2015, I returned back to the country, assumed my responsibility as the secretary general of the SPLM. Unfortunately, when in August, in 2015, unfortunately, we disagreed again with the leaders, myself as the secretary general and chairman and president Salfa Keir, we disagreed on the need to sign the 2015 agreement. We signed that agreement. President Keir decided not to sign that agreement and he said it was a bad agreement. And we wanted peace. That is where we disagreed. And since then, I remain out of the country because of that. Yeah, we are running out of time. If you could summarize in two minutes because we have to get out here in the next five minutes. Okay. Now you have many other questions, but let me go. Then the other question was, why and when you are removed? No, I was not removed, actually, from my position as secretary general. We only disagreed whether we should sign the peace agreement or not. Okay. And that is how I remain in terms of that. And since then, there have been no pause to what was going on, including I did not sign the (mumbles) because of the associated agreements which were harming our national interests, which have been now time has proven me right. And I said, this agreement was not going to be implemented that time. If you remember in 2018, in September 2019, I made a statement on it. Okay. And this has been proven. All right. Now, the question was, what made me to run out exactly that has already been explained? Yeah. And the question from Malachal, the too many consensus really offers us the best chance to achieve peace, a comprehensive peace and sustainable peace in the country and a transition to democracy, better than any other agreement. Because the RRC has not been implemented by its own signatories and it does not have any international or regional support to it, apart from the support of EGAT, which is actually not able to help in implementation as well. Thank you. Thank you. (mumbles) Yeah. I think just my mind is somewhere in general. One, a citizen's less tech responsibility of holding our leaders accountable. Why? Because we have a class of politicians and political elites who have a culture of administering public governance through crisis. We have politicians who want to run public governance through crisis. And that's why, like normal I say, when they unite, they loot us. When they disagree, they killed us. So as a citizen, let's not give them that chance anymore. That's one thing I'll say. Secondly, the possibility of the whole arts coming back to Juba, one of the biggest problem to my India, I like to turn the citizens. Honestly, since there's some people who are looking to mine as a return of Pagan and they feel it is a threat to the opposition. They are probably looking to mine as a return of Stephen Boy as a threat to the opposition. They're probably looking at return of to mine as a return of Paul Malong as a threat to the opposition. So people are not looking at to mine as a political process in the incumbent government. The problem, like, his personality is coming back, his seriality is coming back, is a threat to my position. So, until those politicians, we hold them accountable even to my enemy, not deliver us to the destined ones. So the first goal is that let everybody come on board and let us impress to my enemy as the best option of transitioning our country from balance to peace with the participation of those from the city law and the rest who are not there. We try all of our best. - Yes, Bishop, in October, your final remark in 30 seconds as we conclude our time is really up. Well, I want to inform the government that the church is alive. We are only putting our house in order in December and then you will see us running. For the dull kid in Juba, felt it. He's saying that, are we sure these brothers here in Nairobi, the position will come home. We have read from Paganamu, he's one of our daughters. They are all here. We've been praying with them and they say Bishop, are we ready to go? But of course, you have to have an agreement. We cannot just go right now. So they were sure as that they're going to continue to make the changes inside peacefully. Thank you. - All right, thank you so much, Edmond Yacani and Honorable Paganamu and also Bishop in October for your time today. We appreciate your time so much. And that's it. We have for you this weekend on the round table and we were discussing about the resumption of the Two Minded Peace Initiative. Thank you so much. My name is Ani Martin. Stay tuned to the rest of the programs coming up. 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