[Music] From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 507 for April 8th, 2024, today's show, is brought to you by Delete Me, Adblock Pro, Fitbod and Vitally. My name is Mike Hurley and I have the pleasure of being joined by Jay Casey-less. Welcome to the show, Casey-less. My triumphant return, we're going to go with that. We're going to get to that in a little bit, but to start off, I have a list talk question for you and it comes from Listen to Justin. How many Apple Watch bands do you have and how often do you change them? So, I'm going to bring some interesting energy to the show immediately and tell you, Mike, that I saw that this was in the show notes document and I thought to myself, "Self, you need to go and look at how many Apple Watch bands you have." So, you can answer this question when it's time to record. And then, Michaela has been sick for the last few days and everything has been upside down and tops and turvy and so, I neglected to go and actually count. No, this is good. This is the energy I expected from you. No, I'm not sure if I should be offended or not, but we're just going to plow forward. So, off the top of my head, so this is actually a very complicated question because I used to rock the larger size watch. I believe it was a 42 millimeter, if I'm not mistaken, at the time. You're the watch person, so you tell me. But I think at the time it was 42 millimeters and then when it did the switch from 42 to 44, something broke in my brain and I somehow decided that was just impossibly too large for my little wrist. And so, whatever year that was, it was several years ago now, I switched and I came down to, what is it, 38 millimeters? Now, I think it used to be 36, now it's 38, something along those lines. And so, now Aaron and I are on the same size watch, and thus we can share watch bands. And that means, although I accrued, I would guess between five and 10 watch bands over the course of my 42 millimeter time. I now had access to all of Aaron's watch bands and I was, since in the last couple of years, I've brought some of my own to the party on the occasions we get, I get a new Apple watch, whatever the case may be. So, I would guess all told that of the small size watch bands, which is the ones that are relevant right now, because I'm wearing a small size watch, which is the 41 millimeter watch. Is it? No, is it? Yeah, just to be 38, but no, it's 41. Wow, I had that all wrong. I'm thankful for that correction. So, thank you. So, anyway, so of those size bands, I would guess we have 10ish that are almost exclusively sport or sport adjacent bands. We don't have like, well, I did have a Milanese, a knockoff Milanese, Milanese, whatever it's called for the big one, but we don't have any of those for the small ones. I think Aaron has one with like a traditional clasp on it, you know, like the pokey through the metal pokey bit, I'm not talking the pin on the sport band, you know what I'm talking about? Like the rectangle, and you have a little pokey bit, like on a belt. Is it an Apple one, or is it a third part? No, it's an arch. Okay, we just call it a clasp. We'll just call it a clasp. Okay, there you go. But the only time I generally switch watch bands, there's two times I switch watch bands. The first time is, I really like the completely featureless just band of silicone or whatever it is, silicon thing. What do they call that? Like the sport something or other where there's no holes in it. So not the sport band, you like just just the fluro elastima solo loop. Yes, it's liquid silicone rubber. It's the fluro elastima was what the original one was made of. Okay, so the solo loop, that's what I was thinking of. So I really like the solo loop, but in my experience, they last approximately three to six months before I somehow get a cut in them, and then they immediately just give way. And so you cut them? Like they break when you they break. I've had two or three and every single one of them is broken, which is really a bummer. I'm not a fan of that. Like I don't like the the idea of just pulling a piece of... What they remind me of is when you go swimming and you have a locker key, and it's on a little band that you have to put. And I don't like that experience. I get that. Yeah, I never dug those ones. Yeah, I like them. Even though I like on the traditional sport loop, which is what I typically wear, I like being able to bring it one-notched hider when I'm actively working out, because I've told myself that helps with heart rate monitoring. That may or may not be true. That's just what I've told myself. But in any case, so when I get a new watch, I will inevitably go back to the solo loop. And then six months later, I will regret it. And then I will return to my some flavor of deep-ish blue apple branded sport. What is this traditional standard issue sport band? There you go. Okay, so that's what I'm wearing right now is like a bluish sport band with the pin and the holes and whatnot in the smaller of the available sizes. But when it's football season in the fall, and by that I mean American football, we have season tickets to Aaron's, my wife's alma mater, the University of Virginia. And so what I'll do is I'll typically take one half of this blue sport band and one half of an orange sport band, because that's their school colors is blue and orange. And I will mix them together, if you will. So I'll have an orange and blue setup that I'll put on for that Saturday. And then I will take it off on Sunday and go back to my traditional blue or occasionally I'll wear a green. That reminds me of, do you remember when Apple did the Olympic watch bands and they had like bands for every country? They were weird and fun. So very cool. Thank you for that extensive information. Sorry, we're already on a journey. One question. I'm putting in the show notes, an app called band bright, which Zach put in the discord, which is like an an iPhone app to track your band. Oh, that's very clever. We've been I think we spoke about this before. I've mentioned before in the UK, Apple calls them straps, not bands. Oh, interesting. Because that's what we call that like we call it a watch strap, not a watch band, but like when you go to the Apple website, it says straps instead of bands. My current favorite Apple watch band is the is one of the ultra ones. I think it's called the trail band. I'm now going. So I'm now I'm also ill prepared. So I like the I have the I haven't got the Alpine loop. It's the trail loop. I also have the ocean band, which I kind of like, but the orange beige trail loop is my current favorite. But they get a bit dirty. All right, because it's like, it's like the the sport loops, not sport the sport. Oh, man. The yeah, the sport loop. It's like that. It's that kind of like velcroy feeling, you know, so they get a little bit dirty. But I also love the magnetic link, but the ones made of leather, not the fine woven one. When they announced the fine woven, I bought one of the leather ones, another one, because I use one on my previous watch and kind of wore it out. I love it in blue. And now I have this other one. Sometimes I change into that one, if I want to dress up my Apple watch, but it's it's it's difficult to dress up the Apple watch ultra, in my opinion, it was easier to dress up my gold stainless steel. He's I had the gold Milanese, which I still have, but don't have a watch that's really good to wear it with. Right. I got that. Also, real time follow up, I forgot to mention, I have one of the original pride official Apple Pride bands. I think it's a velcroy one. And I actually really like that one. I haven't had it on in a few months now, but I really like that one and occasionally switched that one to I forgot about that. That's the sport loop. And yes. And that's it feels similar in construction to the to the trail loop. Thank you so much to Justin for sending in that question. If you would like to send in a question of your own to help us open the show, just go to upgrade feedback.com and you can send it in. Casey, welcome back to the show. Well, thank you. I'm so pleased to be here. So Jason's away. He's looking at the sky today. So he's looking at the eclipse. You have any interest in the eclipse? I do, but Virginia is not terribly close to the path of totality. And so I think it's starting like as we are ending the show for me, it's going to start as we're ending the show. Well, we'll see. Who knows how long the show is going to go, you know? Yeah, right. Well, given we went to get 10ish minutes on Snell Talk slash list talk, well, this may be a four hour adventure, but nevertheless, it should be starting sometime around, I think two or three in the afternoon, my time, and it's currently shortly afternoon, as we record. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, I mean, I'm interested in it, but it's not if I see it great, if I don't, I'm not going to I'm not going to weep about it. I wasn't about to go out of my way to do it, probably because I've just been very busy recently and couldn't handle trying to put all that effort together. But but no, I mean, it's certainly fun. We had one go through Virginia, and I think it was either a total eclipse or darn near one, several years ago now, it was probably six, seven years ago, and that was really cool. But and I prepared, you know, a pinhole, like viewing thing out of an old Tom Bin box. And that was neat, but this time I've done absolutely nothing to prepare, other than tell the kids don't look at the sun. Perfect. That's probably the most important thing to be honest. Just don't look at the sun, kids. Use that as just like a general rule. I said, you were on the show last time you have released your fabulously popular application call sheet. Can you give the elevator pitch for call sheet? Yeah, so so call sheet, if you're not familiar, is an app that lets you look up cast and crew information and information about TV shows and movies and things like that. And it does it super fast and it's pretty well designed if I'm if I may be so bold as to say so, you can get a lot of information very quickly. And it's trying, it tries to do well with respecting its users. So there's no pop ups, there's no advertising. It is a subscription app, although you get 20 searches for free. There's features for preventing spoilers. So the canonical example for this, no spoilers, is that I was watching the incredible HBO mini series Watchmen several years ago. And one of the characters in that show, I will not specify which, they have dual roles, like they have a secret identity, right? And I looked at the internet movie database IMDB to see information about these different actors and actresses and whatnot. And I saw, you know, oh, Joe Smith is character A slash character B, and I didn't know about the secret identity yet. And I was very actually years later, I'm very upset by this. And so one of the things that call sheet allows you to do for TV shows anyway, is that you can say, well, I don't want to see character names, or I don't want to see how many episodes they're in, in case, you know, those characters killed off after three episodes or what have you, or I don't want to see the thumbnails for the episodes and things like that. And the other nice thing about it is for things like TV episodes and movies, where there's a concrete and discrete release date in the list of the cast and the crew and whatnot, it'll actually show, okay, well, this person was 38 years old when this was released, this person was 43 years old. And maybe that sounds a little silly. But for me, I always am curious as to, you know, how old actors and actresses and crew are, so. Yeah, I was good. I was just doing a thing, which I'll be able to tell people about in a couple of weeks. And I was, it was helpful for me to be able to see the people in this movie, because like, just to see how old they were, like, I actually found that useful because the movie was on the older side. So that was pretty cool. Coshy is available wherever you have your Apple platforms, right? So it's on the iPhone, iPad, Mac, and even on Vision Pro as well, which I think is a nice addition if you have a Vision Pro and you're watching movies. And of course, there'll be a link in the show notes. People should go check it out. It's one of my favorite apps of the last couple of years. And not just because Casey is my friend, just a genuinely very good application that I use every couple of days, at least to look something up. So it's fantastic. Good work. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. We have some follow up. Now you weren't on last week's episode, but I think you'll understand the follow up anyway. So we were talking about leaks. So we had the Andrew, who had a leak story. And an anonymous person wrote in to say, I just wanted to say that I worked for Apple and their hardware division for close to eight years. And I was reached out to by at least five reporters in that time. And I know a bunch of folks who have the same experience. I'd like to point out that in my anecdotal experience, reporters reaching out is far more common than the other way around. Not surprised to me. No, definitely not. Well, it's not a surprise that it's flowing that direction. And yet at the same time, I kind of wonder, like, what is the reporter's play here? Like just cruising LinkedIn and trying to find people who list their employers, Apple, just cold calling them or whatever sources, right? I guess. I don't know. I don't have the gumption to do that. Think about it, right? If you're if you're a Mark Gumm now, right? So good. Like, you know what? I mean, he's getting people come into him all the time. But if you're starting up or you're like lower in the arc, maybe Mark Gumm and 10 years ago, whether how those connections get built, wasn't there some sort of story I might be making this up? But I thought there was a story that one of his initial sources was like his girlfriend or like his girlfriend's brother or something like that years ago. I don't know if that's true or not. You are half remembering a story. Okay. That I'm not sure if it was a story that was public or it was a story that has just has been shared around over the years. But I'm pretty sure I've heard it on podcasts too. And I think I've even mentioned it that a source of his was a sibling of someone who worked to Apple and that person got fired. I see. Okay. That's that is the story as I know it. But it could be his say. I think that's what you're remembering. Yeah, I think you're right. And either way, I mean, your point is completely fair that somehow, some way you need to build up this this clientele is not the right word for it. But you know, this list of sources and I guess cold calling might work. I guess if you happen to hit that disgruntled employee at the right moment, but I don't know. I'm surprised it's it works enough that people, you know, actually execute it. Maybe it doesn't work though. You know, that's fair. It's a thing that people try. It doesn't mean it's going to work. I think that people that are likely to want to share this kind of stuff, they're probably actively attempting to do that rather than like getting that email and being like, oh, yeah, now's the time to spill the beans. We've been talking a lot about immersive video. Apple has announced that a new episode of the pre-astronic planet, immersive video series for Vision Pro, we released on April 19th. So this low drip feed continues. Imagine my surprise as I was preparing for the show and I looked in the show notes and I saw there's a new episode coming and I said there is. Yeah, well, you've got 11 days to prepare. Of all of the immersive video, this was actually an episode that I couldn't finish. I want to go back to it. But the the initial shots of this, it's kind of like drone footage going towards an island and it's like movement. It's there to make me feel, I think, a little bit motion sick, which I'd never experienced before. And so I bailed out of that. But I do want to go back and watch it. So maybe I'll check it out another time. But you shared something with me, which is yes. Kind of immersive videos, not from Apple, although I think Apple was quite heavily involved in this. I think just judging by the way some of the things look in the video and some of the products used in the video. But there is a Gucci app, which features in the Vision Pro version, an interactive video documentary about Gucci's new creative director, Sabato Desano. And it shows his first fashion show, which I think was in the beginning of last year, beginning of this year, I think. It's basically a 20, 30 minute video showing his first fashion show. But as you're watching the video in like a window, a video window, things are breaking out and like taking over an immersive space around you or being in your environment. It's really cool. And you can pause the video at certain points and look at the products and look at his sketches of the collection that he put together. This is the kind of stuff that like these little things come out and you're like, Oh, there you go. Like that's, that's something, right? Like that, that's one of the reasons to have this thing. Like it's experiences like this one. Very cool. Where did you find it? So this was emailed to the ATP feedback by Jason F. And they had said like, this is incredible. I can't believe nobody's talking about it. I had never even heard of it. Well, it's just in the Gucci app. You know what I mean? So like, yeah, not really a thing that mean you are checking frequently. Exactly. So one way or another, I only had the chance to watch the first five, maybe 10 minutes so far. And I do plan to watch the rest because I went into this. It's absolutely worth it. It's also just a well-made documentary. Like it's just a well-made little documentary. It is absolutely worth your time. And so like a couple of quick examples from the first five minutes. There's at one point where they're talking about like train tracks, I forget the context, but there was some sort of like train or maybe they were doing a photo shoot out of train or tram or whatever. And so you're like Mike had said, you know, imagine a rectangle where you're watching this video. And then suddenly there's like train or tram or whatever tracks extending out, not from the inside of the of the rectangle, like above or behind the rectangle. It's like the background suddenly becomes train tracks or tram or what have you. And then this tram car just comes in like a 3D tram car. This is totally outside of your rectangular viewing window. It just comes in from the side of your available, you know, visual space and just kind of parks for a second and chills. And then there was another part where they were talking about that the fashion show was going to be in this like air. I forget what city it was. It doesn't really matter. It's a tiny city. It wasn't was Milan. Okay. Thank you. So in Milan, there this small corner of Milan, there's like this cobblestone area and it leads up to a church. And so they're you're looking at this in a standard, you know, rectangular viewport. And then all of a sudden the stuff that's going on behind the viewport instead of your desk or your living room or wherever you're watching this, it becomes a 3D rendering of that like street corner, if you will. And so you see the church right there in front of you. And it's it's not subtle. Subtle isn't the word I'm looking for. But it's it's immersive. It's very immersive. And it's not immersive in the sense like the Apple demo stuff is which I love. I'm not trying to, you know, throw shade on the Apple demo stuff. But that the entire experience is immersive and you can look around and see different things and whatnot. It's it's how do you take a regular video and compliment it with VR elements? That's right. Exactly. Where the video is just the video. It's not it's not altered by the fact that you're wearing it in the Vision Pro. But the environment around the video screen is enhanced. Yep. That's the kind of stuff where you see it. And it's like, these are the things that can be done. Like, these are the things that somebody you see these little breadcrumbs and like you understand how early we are in it. Like, I gotta say, I find it frustrating that people are saying that the Vision Pro is dead. Like, yeah, I agreed. It's too soon. It's way too soon. And I think that we need these are the types of experiences that will exist. And we're going to talk about in the one later on in the episode where they become these little green shoots that can become something bigger in a few years time, which in my opinion was the whole point of this in the first place. And we're getting there. And like, to me, this was another example of this of like, oh, this isn't an immersive video. It's not a regular video. I'm not watching this video inside of a movie environment. I'm watching this video. And then all of a sudden, I'm being delighted and surprised by these things that are popping up. And then for something like a Gucci runway show, the fact that I can look at like AR versions of the products and move them around, make them bigger and smaller and take a look at the bags and the shoes and the jewelry. That's fantastic for Gucci, right? Because now I can experience that be like, Oh, that fashion show is beautiful. These clothes are amazing. Let me look at this bag. So it's a very, if you have a Vision Pro, take the 20 minutes and watch this. It's also just one of those things which I love. The story of a creative person and how they overcome challenges to produce something. It's really cool. Yeah, yeah. Again, I only saw the first five, maybe 10 minutes, and it was 100% worth your time. And like Mike was saying, I like that it's kind of like two and a half D in that the video is the video. It's a regular 2D video. Mike has said it a couple of times I'll reiterate that. But everything is happening around it. It's like, you know, salt beige sprinkled a little, like 3D on top of a regular or immersion, I guess is a better way to put it on top of a regular 2D video. It's very, very clever and very, very well done. And I could not care less about fashion. It is not my thing. Do not care. And I was riveted in the five or 10 minutes I was watching this. It is definitely worth your time. This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Delete Me. Do you ever wonder how much of your personal data is out there on the internet for anyone to see? 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And it's the stuff that you asked Delete Me what you want them to be on the lookout for. And for me, it was my address, my phone number, my email. Like, if this stuff exists online, I don't want it there. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for listeners of this show. Get 20% of your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20 and use the promo code upgrade20 at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to J-O-I-N-D-E-L-E-T-E-M-E.com/upgrade20 and enter the code upgrade20 at checkout. That is J-O-I-N-D-E-L-E-T-E-M-E.com. Join deleteme.com/upgrade20 and the code upgrade20. Thanks to Delete Me for the support of this show and relay FM. It's time for everybody's favorite segment. It's DMA Today. Are you excited to be a part of DMA Today today, Casey? I am overjoyed to be a part of DMA Today. Today will be a great day to do DMA Today. The Verge has published a first look at Alt Store, which is planning to be one of the first alternative app marketplaces in Europe. It's a really good piece. I have a couple of tidbits that I wanted to pull out of this article, but I recommend reading it. So, one, with Alt Store, apps can monetize via Patreon and offer the app as a park and you can link the two together. Two things that are interesting about this. One, there are a ways to pay for things. One of them is Patreon, but also with Patreon, but if you tie the app to a pledge, you can limit the amount of people that can claim that pledge. So therefore... Oh, yes. I see. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You as the developer could get out of the core technology fee. However, the alternative app marketplace is how they're going to pay for their core technology fee. Different apps are doing it in different ways, because if you're an app marketplace, you have to pay the core technology fee no matter what. Some are passing that on in the form of a subscription to the developers. Alt Store, as a publishing article, haven't announced how that's being done, but you as the developer still don't have to pay it until you hit that million threshold, where you could set the tier there and then maybe have a more expensive tier for the one after that if you hit that, right? So it gives you that flexibility in your business and the sense that the app couldn't just explode overnight because you were able to cap it. So that's cool. Apps in Alt Store as well do things that other iOS apps cannot do. For example, there is an app that is shown off called Clip, which is a clipboard manager. Clip stays awake in the background using the MapKit APIs. So this is something that App Store apps can't do because you can't use the MapKit API for this Apple will reject here. So, and what happens is if you copy a piece of, if you like select some text and press copy, you get a push notification immediately. It's like, hey, do you want to save that? And you can just interact with a notification and save. So it's like a true clipboard manager with a little bit of a weird workaround. But the fun thing about this is the MapKit solution was the solution that Notorization approved after some back and forth. No, but like, so it's existing, right? This is a feature an App Store app would be rejected for, but it's in Alt Store having gone through Notorization, like the original method, whatever it was, for saying awake in the background, Apple said you can't do that by Notorization because it was like a misuse of an API, but they allowed the MapKit use some interesting times. Of course, the Delta emulator for Nintendo games, old Nintendo systems is in Alt Store. That's the ride tester who created Delta also created and is running Alt Store. So obviously that would be in there. Do you have anything that you'd like to mention about Alt Store before I move on to the other emulator piece of news? Just briefly, I don't run emulation software often, but on occasion, I'll have a reason to bust out an old video game from my childhood. And I cannot tell you how delightful it is to use like open EMU on the Mac and run Mega Man 2, which Declan was, I don't remember. Oh, no, Declan was playing Smash Brothers. That's what it was. My nine-year-old son was playing Smash Brothers and was asking about who Mega Man was. And I was like, oh, buddy, buckle up, so we can talk about this. And so we ran upstairs to my Mac and I opened up Mega Man 2, which I spent just hours upon when I was roughly his age, just hours and hours and hours on Mega Man 2. And being able to run old software in an emulator like that is so delightful, particularly when you have a controller, like I have the 8-bit do 8-bit do 8-bit do. I forget how you pronounce it. Anyways, the one, the SN30 Pro that looks like a Super Nintendo controller, and I have that and I hooked it up to my Mac. And it was delightful, even though this is an NES game, still having a Super Nintendo controller was great. It's so much better than using a keyboard. And being able to do that on my phone or even perhaps more so my iPad, which although I guess the alternative stores are not coming to iPad, is that right? Well, I mean, they're also not coming to you. Well, yeah, fair. That's a very good point. But in principle, just being able to hook a controller up to my phone, you know, because Delta allows us to take that jump. That's one of the things that Delta would allow you to do. And being able to play like an old NES or Super Nintendo game on my phone, like, I don't think I would have the occasion to do it often, but being able to do it would be super cool. And this hardware is so good. Like, why wouldn't you want to at least be able to do that if you saw that? It would be very fun. Great news for you, Casey List, because it might not just be Delta as the way to do this. So, Apple has published yet another update to the App Store guidelines. One of them being that Apple now allows for emulators for, quote, retro game consoles in the App Store, noting that, quote, "You are responsible for all such software offered in your app, including ensuring that such software complies with these guidelines and all applicable laws." This is a worldwide immediate change that allows for emulators. Yeah, so in theory, I mean, I haven't seen Riley talk about this yet, but in theory, I don't see any reason why you couldn't have Delta on the regular traditional worldwide App Store, right? Or am I missing something? Yeah, in theory, unless Riley is doing things with Delta that would otherwise be outside of what's allowed, right? Sure. So, maybe, as you can see, using APIs that might not otherwise be available to a developer, but in theory now, we will start to see emulators appear on the App Store, and there's going to be a lot of them. And I'm really interested to see how this works, because if you say this is an emulator from the Nintendo Game Boy, will Apple allow that? Like, you're not providing the ROMs. So, like, I'm really keen to see how this is going to go, because, like, what is a retro game console? Like, that's not defined. Yeah. Is the Nintendo Switch retro? It depends on who you ask. It's the 3DS retro. Like, how far back are we going? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who's deciding the intellectual property lore of this? Fascinating. But I look forward to playing Pokemon, I guess, all some playing. Like, I have a new opportunity to play Pokemon on my iPhone. This is incredible. And I think you're right that the ownership side of the software is where this will get very, very interesting, both in the good and not so good ways. So, to back up, you made mention a minute ago of ROMs. So, the way this works for emulators is they typically do not provide any games to play. The emulators, the software that allows you to play a game, but you need to bring the game yourself. And so, you need to, you know, take a game cartridge and use a piece of hardware to download all of the bits on that game cartridge. And that's the ROM, the read-only memory from the cartridge. And then you put that in a file and you upload that file to your computer, or to your phone, or what have you, and then you can play the game. I have a thing for the gameboy that can do this. Exactly. And as with all things, you know, there are alternative approaches, which we do not condone here at Upgrade. But nevertheless, that's the question is like, you know, what is Apple going to allow for this? You know, how is a, how is Riley a delta supposed to verify effectively that you have the cartridge for the ROM that you're providing? Is that Riley's responsibility? You know Apple don't get, not don't, but like they're just going to be like, well, it's your responsibility. So, basically- I don't know. Yeah. I mean, basically what this is, is like, they've just like, I think I've seen a lot of people say this, I think it's true. I guess maybe they're fearful of the competition here or something. Like, I guess, right? So like, they figure that something like delta is enough for people in Europe to want to install Alt Store. Oh, yeah. Put it on the app, allow these on the App Store, and then people will get them from the App Store. But it's, for me, I see this as a, you know, they wrote it in there. It's in the, you know, you said that you will comply with laws. So when Nintendo comes to us, we're just going to send them directly to you. Like, that's the way this is going to go. So it's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. I have yet to find an emulator in the App Store. It is a bit soon. But I am really keen to see who's fast and how does this shake out? A part of me is surprised that somebody like Riley, who granted is very busy right now, but somebody wasn't waiting on the wings like ready to submit to out. There's no way anybody thought this is going to happen. Well, but that's the exact that I was going to say is that on the one side, like, how could you not be ready for this? But on the other side, you know, there are hotter places in the world that would have frozen over before I expected this to happen, right? Like, I didn't think in a million years this would happen. And I think this is absolutely indication that what the EU is doing, it looks like it's working because I think you're right. I think at least some of this is trying to get ahead of all store and trying to make sure that Apple's users don't have any particular justification for looking outside the App Store. And hey, turns out, it sounds like a lot of people would love to run old games on their phones. So maybe we should allow for that. Imagine that, Apple, what a just fascinating class. It is a hard thing to allow though. Like it is a it's not even really a legal gray area in some instances. Like it's a legal gray area many, but in some it's just like, no, you just this is bad because like where did I draw the line? Like we just had all this stuff with Nintendo killing the user emulator, which was for the switch, which I think is a bit aggressive. And I'm not surprised. And I don't really personally, I don't really have a problem with Nintendo going after that one. But when you go back to something like the Game Boy, it's like, all right, like, you know, you're not going to lose out money here, like make the games available. Like you can do your thing. So I don't know. They also made a change in Europe that music streaming services can have a buy button to sign up for the service. It takes you to a web page to learn more and sign up. What a novel concept. Imagine that. Imagine just in Europe, this one though, because we all know that non Europeans cannot deal with buy buttons in their applications. Yep. We are too stupid, Mike, we cannot handle it. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that I am not lost when I'm using the Spotify app. It's just, it's this, I don't want to go off. I don't want to pop off like I've been doing so often on ATP about how ridiculous an entitled apple is. And so I will just say that I am glad that there's at least some amount of forward progress, even if it seems to be by way of the prod rather than, you know, the cattle prod rather than the carrot, if you will, I think I'm mixing metaphors here. But it turns out, like I said a minute ago, it looks like this has worked, like the system is working. They are forcing apple to make changes that they wouldn't, or didn't appear to be willing to make otherwise. And you know what, I am here for it. Yep. It's time for a room around up. Yeehaw. 9 to 5 Mac has found evidence in iPadOS 17.5 in the beta that the next apple pencil may feature a squeeze gesture. This is a quote from 9 to 5 Mac. The gesture can be used to quick interactions such as adding shapes, signatures, stickers, or a text field. Presumably, the gesture will be triggered by pressing the apple pencil surface. That's very interesting. I don't know how I would feel about a squeeze gesture, and I'm sure once I tried it, I'd be like, oh, yes, of course. Oh, yeah, that's pro, right? Yes. Yes, that. Oh, yeah, I guess that's a fair point. But I just use that for play. I mean, what would I, I don't know. Well, I mean, you're not drawing with your AirPods, but exactly imagine there would be an application and you'd set it and it's like some, I don't know, some frequent thing that you're doing inside of said application. Like it could be undo, in procreate, or change into, you know, between two tools or something like that. I would prefer a button, a button, then squeezing, but we'll see. And we may be seeing soon because Mark, well, not as soon as we thought though, Mark German is reporting now that the new iPads are due to be announced on May 6th, which is a month away from now, which is kind of funny because we've been expecting these new iPads for at least a month. I think you mean at least a year. Well, I've wanted them for that amount of time. Sure. Yeah, it's just like a funny scenario that we've ended up in where we were all convinced that these iPads were coming out in early March and they're actually now looking like they will arrive in early May. Yeah, and I thought I'd read somewhere, I don't know if we'll be able to put a link in the show notes or not, but I feel like I read somewhere that they're having really bad yield problems with the OLED displays or something on those lines, since that might have something to do with it. Mark has also said that there are software issues. So it's a bit of it. So it's kind of six of one half thousand of the other with the stuff. But yes, this is coming out later than expected. But you know, as people say KC, it's not delayed if they haven't announced it. That's true. That is true. Mark German is also reporting that Apple is now exploring home robotics now that the car project is over in the search for the next big thing. This is what they're going to start pursuing. I'm going to read some quotes. This is this piece is just like full of interesting quotes. So I'm just going to read them out. We can talk about it. Engineers and Apple have been exploring a mobile robot that can follow users around their homes. The original concept for the robot was advice that could navigate entirely on its own about human intervention and serve as a video compressing tool. One pie in the sky idea was having it to be able to handle chores like cleaning dishes in a sink. But that would require overcoming extraordinarily difficult engineering challenges, something that's unlikely this decade. Apple has developed an advanced tabletop home device that uses robotics to move a display around. This idea was to have the display mimic the head movements of a call such as nodding of a person on a facetime session. It's it would also feature the it also have features to precisely lock onto a single person among a crowd during a video call. The robotics work is happening within Apple's hardware engineering division and its AI and machine learning group run by John Giannandria. Matt Costello and Brian Lynch, two executives focus on home products have overseen the hardware development. This is interesting. On the surface, it makes sense kind of because, you know, in this world with the car, you need to have incredible spatial awareness. And in a house, you would also need some good spatial awareness. But it is a pretty big leap from one to the other. I'm not sure they're really related in just in the sense of like, they were working on a car. Now they've given up on that and now they're working on something else. Fair. And the other thing is like, what would I want a house robot to do with by following me around? Like the only thing I can think of is remember, and I think you used one of these at all once. I thought it was you that was there. We had a call using one. That's what I'm talking about. I forget the telepresence robot. There you go. That's the that's a generic the generic term. But yeah, it's these robots. You can wander around a office building or what have you and they basically have like an iPad or equivalent on the at about eye level actually. And so you could sort of kind of carry on a conversation with a coworker, even though the coworkers hundreds of miles away or whatever. And that was neat. And I saw a handful of offices try it. And it seemed like none of them stuck with it. And I don't know if that's because the thing was never charged or because it was too difficult to use or latency was too bad or whatever. But I don't I can't think of any reason why I would want a robot following me around the house. You know, it's not like that. And I just talked about this in ATP and I forget the name of it. But there's those robots that will follow you around in a city. And they're like a backpack, but you don't carry it. It's just this little like segue style thing that's following a meter or two behind you. And that in principle actually sounds pretty appealing. But that's when you're out of the house. And it's also like $7,000 or something like that. So look, you know, think about what they're saying would be the pie in the sky. Wouldn't you love something to do house chores for you? I mean, I suppose yeah, imagine a Roomba, but that can do everything. Right. And that's too big. This is too big of a thing to even consider, which I think they're getting at, right? Like, this is a, and I think people can take some of these reports as being like a gospel thing, but no, like, there was an idea that somebody had of like, the real goal for a project like this is create a multipurpose home robot. But they know they're not going to be able to do that for a very long time, if ever. Yeah. But inside of this piece is the real thing that they seem to be working on. And I hope that they're working on, which is a tabletop home device that can move a display around. Like, this is the advanced echo show like device from Apple, the home pod with a screen, which apparently this product is quite much further along. But there is disagreement inside of the company, of wherever it's something people would want. Something I would want is that we have an echo show in the house, and I don't like it, but my wife does. But it's nice to have a screen in the house where it's showing photos from a photo library, but we can also talk to it. You can, you know, when you're cooking, you can see the timers on it. You can interact with, like, Amazon's made a great business of this. I would love Apple to do one of these. And if it could do things, like, I could have a FaceTime call with someone and it will follow me around and all that kind of stuff. Sounds fantastic. But I also would love Apple to build me a robot that could do all of my chores. But I genuinely, I'm not sure if we'll see that in my lifetime. Yeah, agreed. And with regard to the echo show style thing, that's not something I feel like I want in my life. But let me, you know, hedge by saying I've never had an echo show or anything equivalent. So it may be one of those things that once I had it in my life, I'd go, Oh, yes, of course. But you know, the closest I can think of is having a larger screen for FaceTime purposes. And just recently, we FaceTimed with my mom and dad when they were at their house, you know, we were at ours, of course. And I just stuck my phone on the mantle below the TV. And it was fine. Like, it really wasn't bad. The audio allegedly on their end wasn't bad. Because that's the thing I worry about. Our family room is very, very wide and not very deep. So we're physically relatively close to the TV, which helps a lot for the purposes of audio. But when you do a FaceTime call with an Apple TV, the audio is the camera microphone on your phone, right? And so sometimes in a room that's deeper and not as wide, you can sound like you're 400 miles away from the microphone because you kind of are. Luckily, our house is laid out in such a way that that's not really a problem. But that sort of thing is where I feel like we are missing something in the list, family's missing something is having the ability to do a group FaceTime call on a big screen. And what with continuity camera and the Apple TV support and more recent versions of the Apple TV OS, then that seems to be fixed for us. So I don't personally have a need for this. But again, I can't stress enough that it might be one of those things that I get it in the house. And I'm like, Oh, yes, of course. How did I live without this? This episode is brought to you by Adblock Pro. Adblock Pro gives you a smoother Safari experience. Those infuriating autoplay videos, deceptive clothes buttons, relentless scrolling banners and sketchy redirects, you can wave goodbye to all of this and welcome a decluttered and more delightful browsing experience. Are you constantly bombarded with allow cookie pop ups? You can effortlessly dismiss dismiss them of our block pro. It just gets rid of them for you. You can mute comments sections on websites that you don't want to see. You can selectively block page elements of a simple tap. 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I don't care so much about blocking ads, you know, obviously in my life advertising isn't it way I make my living. I care more about bad user experiences similarly for how we don't have bad ads on our shows. We don't have I don't like bad experiences on the web. So things like the cookie banners them just being disabled for me like I can also set my preferences for how I want that stuff to be dealt with as well as stuff that's trying to like take over the scrolling of my page get rid of all that stuff. Take action jump onto the app store search adblock pro and transform your Safari experience today. That's adblock pro in the app store thanks to adblock pro for the support of this show and relay FM. So a couple of days ago, I incessantly bullied you into getting onto a FaceTime call with me. That is both accurate and inaccurate but it is probably more accurate than I care to admit to myself. Yes, because spatial personas have launched. So this is an advanced persona feature for FaceTime calls with the Vision Pro. So previously you would have a call with somebody and they'll be trapped inside of a little box. But at WWDC, when they showed off the Vision Pro initially, they gave a tease for the next evolution of personas where people would be essentially like floating heads and hands inside of inside of your space with you. But the Apple touted at the time that it was a much more immersive experience. Now you were going to be my co-host on the show today. I wanted to talk about it and I wanted you to come onto the show having had this experience and I wanted you to have this experience with me. And so by this point, I had had a call with a couple of friends solo and then also a group hangout session. This was your first experience of spatial personas. What did you think? So the thing with the Vision Pro is that there's so much potential there and it's so obvious that the technology is just phenomenal. It's big, it's clunky, it's heavy, but it's still it's there. It's there much more so than you would expect. But it's hard to convince yourself of that sometimes, even as someone who can spend as much time as I want with the Vision Pro because, you know, so there's so few examples of it being there. And the immersive video we were talking about earlier is a great example. This Gucci thing is silly as it makes it may sound. I think that's an example. And I've done a FaceTime call or two with the Vision Pro previously and it was fine. And after, you know, five or ten minutes, you can kind of get over the fact that you're looking at a cartoon version of your friend or whatever. But it was fine. The special personas are a whole different thing. And it is a great example of what makes the Vision Pro so freaking cool. And what makes you feel like, yep, we're there. This is it. It's not the future. It's not the future in the future. It's the future today. And it was bananas. It's incredible. I did this in my office in the same room. I'm sitting in right now. I did this without any AirPods in or anything like that. I was just using the audio pods, whatever they call the thing, you know, that the stems on the Vision Pro. And the way that it felt like you were around me was phenomenal because if you were off to my left, you sounded like and looked like you were off to my left. If you're off to my right, you sounded like and looked like you were off to my right. And what really blew my mind, which is funny because I think at this point, I had heard connected if I'm not mistaken. And so I was aware of most of these things. And so I knew what to expect. And yet, you know, we were sitting or we were, I guess we were adjacent to each other. I forget exactly what the scenario was. Well, one way or another, I was looking at you even if I don't remember if I was looking at you head on or if you were off to my side. But one way or another, you said, okay, I'm going to stand up now. And sure enough, when you stood up, your head went from eye level to a couple of feet above me, which is what would happen if we were sitting next to each other. And also it creates a shared physical space. So I can walk around you. Yeah. I mean, your space and I'm moving around. So like, and there are things that you can do, which are wild, like you can have somebody follow your finger with their eyes and you can watch them do that. Like the latency and the realness of this is, it's honestly like a technological marvel. Here's the thing, if you've seen pictures of this, and I'll put links in the show notes to Jason's article about this and Stephen's article about this, which has a bunch of pictures of these calls that I was on to, they look ridiculous, right? It is a floating head, floating hands, it looks ridiculous, but it doesn't feel like that when you're in it. There is something about just the head and the hands and the shoulders, but when they're moving and they're talking and you can see someone promoting, it is just the amount that you need for your brain to be tricked that you're in the room of the person. It's like just enough. And you know, you've heard of these kinds of things before, like the bare minimum that your brain needs to be able to make these kinds of jumps, like these leaps, this 100% does it. It's the most immersive VR call I've ever experienced. And I've tried a bunch of these things because not only does it work really well, I'm looking at the person I'm talking to and it looks like them, a lot like them because the new person has got even better. Like, truly, it looks weird. Trust me, I know it looks weird, but if you experience it, it is like, it's unbelievably good, like it's unbelievably good. And it pulls in so many different technologies, spatial audio is key, as the case was talking about. If I stand up, I'm high, you know, he can hear I'm above him. If I move around him, he can experience that share play. You can share windows content, all this kind of stuff together. Like, I did this with you, we shared a freeform board, I could get up and walk towards the board and point things on the board, like a presentation, obviously you could do keynote and stuff in this. And then there are also like, I think the best way to experience this. Well, actually, before you jump to that, though, hold on, the, the, the freeform thing blew my mind, because again, I had heard connected, I knew what to expect. But yet, you shared a freeform board, potentially even the same one you shared with them. And you in what we went from looking at each other, sitting, you know, one facing the other, to now we are adjacent to each other, one on either side of the board, which is what you would expect to happen if you were in a space with a whiteboard, right? And you can, like you just said, you can point to something and I can point to something and we can tell what the others doing. Like, I know Mike just said that, but I really need to hammer that home because it, you would expect there to be like inaccuracies or horrible latency or something. But no, no, no, it was spot on. I forget exactly what was on the board, you know, I was, I said something like, okay, point to the red rectangle. And sure enough, you pointed to it. And you know, I said, okay, what am I pointing at? And you said, Oh, you're pointing to the same red rectangle, the other side of it. Yep. Yes, I am. Like it was, it's so silly to be so impressed by this. If you think about it, like, if you look at these pictures, like Mike had been saying, it's like, okay, this looks super weird. Why are you so excited? No, I can't even begin to describe. It is just stupefying the difference that all of this makes, especially in aggregate. Like, it's clear that your mic wasn't physically standing next to me. Like, that's obviously not the case, but it tickled all of the same kinds of emotions. You know what I mean? Like, it felt effectively like you were. And it was almost as satisfying as us having a brainstorming session. I mean, even though it was all, you know, contrived, but it was almost as satisfying as us having a brainstorming session in a room together. And given that you're what, like 3,000 to 2,000 miles away from me, this is a lot easier and cheaper to do with meeting up somewhere to do it in person. Like last week, I felt like I was able to hang out with much of my friends over these different calls. It was a very enriching experience for me because it was able to tickle a lot of those sensations that you get for having spent time with people, because you're talking to them. You feel like you're in a place with them. You very quickly ignore the weird part of it and accept it for what it is or think it's more than what it is. You're able to look into the eyes of your friends as they're talking to you. And like, you're actually looking into their eyes and they're looking into your eyes. The amount of work that must have gone into this, I cannot find them. Like, I genuinely think like, if you have a friend that has a vision pro and you've been on the fence or whatever, this is a reason to buy one if you want to have these experiences together. Because one of the things that we did was we played a game called Game Room, which I think is the perfect demo for this. Oh, it's phenomenal. I cannot stress enough. You must try this. They have a bunch of different games inside a game room. One of them is essentially battleship. And the two of us were able to play a game about ship. It's a very well done application just in general, like the animation is fantastic. It's very well designed, fast and fun. But like, you're able to play actual games together. Like, I really, really hope that more games do this. It's all built on SharePlay. So it's just a SharePlay game. I'm hoping that more of this kind of stuff exists because I want to create like hangouts for friends. Like the group call that I did, it was basically just there was an active FaceTime call inside of a group chat. So people were able to drop in and drop out. Because that's how FaceTime group chats work. That's so there were at one point, there was three of us and there was four of us and there was five of us and people were dropping in and dropping out. So you could imagine just a friend hangout session and you can hang out, you can chat, but having activities, like shared activities to do and games being one of them, man. This is what I was saying earlier on in the show. Like, it is way too soon to be like, oh, this platform's dead. It's not going anywhere. Like there's no developers for it. Obviously I was listening to ATP last week. And I would say the three of you to an element were like, you know, talking about the death of the platform already. But it's not just you guys, like I'm hearing it all over the place. I'm seeing it on Mastodon. Like, it's too soon. I would love to know how we would deal with the iPhone now. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. If the iPhone was now, what would we be saying? Like, we're in the first year of the iPhone and there's no apps for it, right? Like, what would what would the conversations be like? I just think that like, if you see things like this, like this special persona stuff, to say that they are not putting effort into this platform, like, I can't even imagine how hard this was to build. Like, this is clearly what they wanted to launch with, right? But couldn't get it ready in time. Because there's no reason that you would do the first version of this, right? Like, if you had the second version ready, because it was very clear now that this first version is just the they did it until they could stop to finish. Yeah, stop care. And like, it's, it's truly mind-blowing. It's, I hate to use this word, but it's true. It's a transformative experience of using technology like this. Because, you know, I'm hearing time and time and time again from you and from everybody else, like the Vision Pro is a antisocial product, right? Like, you can't use it to people around you, da, da, da, da. And I'm not saying that this changes that, but it makes it social in a different way. Yeah, I was just about to say it's differently social. It's different, actually, right? In the same way that, I mean, your iPhone and your iPad is an antisocial device, too. But we say it's a social device because you can talk to your friends who are across the ocean, right? So like, oh, it's additive to my life because I'm connected to people. This is an even stronger connection. So it's just, you know, like, I've heard, I was just into ATP this morning, so it's fresh in my mind. And you were talking about the fact of her, like, you wouldn't sit on the couch next to Erin. You know, you would wear one of these and she's watching Avatar on the TV and you're watching it. You also wouldn't watch Avatar on your farm while she's watching it on the TV, right? That is fair. Yeah. People are, I think, a lot of the time, creating these scenarios that sound ridiculous because they are ridiculous. Like, you wouldn't do that. You also wouldn't have four people wearing or wearing one in the same way that, like, you wouldn't have four people or looking at an iPad. Like, these devices will fit into our lives in different ways. For some people, they won't fit into their lives at all. And that's totally fine, right? Like, there's going to be a balance here for what this kind of technology can provide and what it can't. But this is like, oh, here's, here's the thing you can't do. The only way you can do this is a Vision Pro. You cannot have this experience with any other Apple product because a FaceTime, that ain't it, son. Like, this is so much better than a FaceTime call. So much better than a FaceTime call for so many reasons. As long as your mouth moves, of course, mine does. Well, that was, that was very off-putting because it's over, like, fixed your mouth. They'll get there. I'm sure. If they look, if they can work this out, they can get the mouth movement issue with moustaches fixed. But the only obvious answer is you just need to trim your beard and moustache back a lot. That's the one true way. I'm not doing that for, like, you know what I mean? If that's their answer, then I'll say the platform is dead. You know what I mean? No, it's your criticisms of ATP, I think, are fair. And it's funny what a difference just a few days makes because I, to a degree, I stand by what I was saying on ATP. And I would think of the three of us, I was far and away the most positive. But I was still kind of pooping the whole thing. And it's funny because at the time, I was thinking, all right, well, they haven't come up. Apple hasn't come out with any of the new immersive videos yet. I didn't realize that the dinosaur thing was forthcoming. Yeah, but still, it's one episode. It's not, like, that's still not good enough, like, not even close. And the soccer thing, as has been talked about, ad nauseam was not great by any means. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, well, what's, what's the point? Like, I still like it. But I think I said on the show, were it not for professional obligations? I think I wouldn't have bought it. And I don't think I would have missed it. Well, fast forward, what is this like five days later, six days later? And I've experienced spatial personas in a in FaceTime. I've experienced co collaborating, not necessarily in a professional sense, but even like in a gaming sense, collaborating on something. I've experienced this Gucci app, which as silly as it is really is mind blowing, like it's such a clever way of approaching this, this, not problem, but, you know, this task of presenting a documentary in an interesting way. Like, in just in the past, less than a week, I feel like the stock of the Vision Pro has gone quite a bit up in my mind, because I'm starting to be to see new and interesting ways to use it. And this comes back to what you've been seeing this entire episode. Well, more than this episode, but especially this episode, it is too darn soon to throw this thing out. It is too darn soon to say it's a dead platform walking because it isn't. We have it at the time for people to really start flexing their muscles and being creative and seeing what they can do. And we're getting bits and pieces of it here. And like, I am looking forward to having the time to put on the Vision Pro and doing the what is the name of the app game room, the game room app, which I don't know if you said this out loud, but it's in Apple Arcade. So if you're an Apple one or whatever it's called member, you get this quote unquote for free, I can't wait to try it again. And I showed, I recorded a little bit of video of the two of us playing and I showed the family and everyone was looking at this. And even though they don't really know what like they've had the Vision Pro on, but they didn't experience playing the game and all of them were still like, Oh, that's real cool. And of course, Declan, my nine year old was like, Oh, I want to try that as soon as I can. And he hasn't had the chance yet. But you know, it's, it's so immediately captivating. And another thing, I don't think you mentioned this yet. But another thing you did, and I didn't even realize you could do this, is you can share your perspective. Oh, yeah. And so I had seen many, many, many photos of mega office, but I have never been to mega office. I've never been sorry. Thank you, my apologies, mega studio. And so I'd never been there. And that's why I didn't know the right name of it, but anyway, I deal, Mike said to me, it's at some point, all right, hold on a minute, watch this. And now I'm getting a 3D view of mega studio, which was amazing. And I mean, again, I've seen photos like it, I kind of had a layout in my mind of what it looked like. But in the span of like you doing one 360 degree spin, well, now I know exactly what mega studio looks like, you know what I mean? And and similarly, like, I mean, my office is a disaster, despite what hopefully it looks like on the video, but you know, I took you on a quick spin around my office, which is not exciting at all. But nevertheless, at least now you get to have a mental model for where it is I'm sitting right now talking to you. And like, stuff like that is super cool. And if memory serves, that was in 3D. Like it was emerged. Well, it wasn't immersive. I don't think it was in 3D. No, it's just like, is it not okay? You just get to see kind of like a video feed. I was so bold over by it. It may as well have been 3D. It probably right. It probably wasn't. But it felt like it at the time. And so it's it's incredibly, incredibly cool what they've done with with just FaceTime broadly, because this that you know, seeing what Mike's seeing doesn't really have anything to do with spatial personas. That's just, I guess, share play if nothing else. But my goodness, was it cool? And it enables you to kind of have a presence somewhere else. And you know, 3D or 2D one way or another, it was so immersive in the figurative sense, because I couldn't, you know, change where I was looking or anything, because I'm just getting the view from Mike's, you know, headset. But it still felt so, you know, lowercase, I am, or if you will, that that it felt like I was there. And it was unreal. Like this, this is phenomenal. And if you're in a position, like, let's say you were, you know, having a long distance relationship or something like that. Oh my God. Fathom. Oh my God. Yeah, you can't like, it would it would be this alone, just FaceTime and spatial personas alone. If you have the money, 1,000% worth the $7,000, you know, for each of you to get one, get the crappiest vision pro you can, which is not still extremely expensive. But like, look, here's the thing. None of this is, is achievable right now. But this is, like, you know, I mean, like, what we're talking about, you know, if you're in a long distance relationship, do you have $7,000 to spend like it's, that is ridiculous to say. Yeah. But in four years time, in five years time, where I genuinely think that in five years time, we will have like full bodies because they'll be able to just work out, even if they can't scan it. So you would have a full body in it, or like much more of a body, maybe at least the top half, right, because they can just work it out. I mean, this is kind of what meta does, right? That they're looking at where your hands are and then assuming the way that the rest of your body moves, it's all machine learning models at the end of the day. But like, if this thing is $1,500, then you could each have one. I mean, yeah. Then we're off to the races because it's the beginning now. This product has been available for three months. Mm hmm. And look at the progress we've made in three months. Yeah. It's it's unreal. The thing that bothers me about all this, the thing that I'm so frustrated by with regard to all this, is that I don't have the vocabulary or the the way with words to appropriately verbalize what this feels like. And I think you and I have done as best a job as we possibly can. But it's one of those, you really just do need to experience it. And like I said, I cannot stress enough. I know I've said it like two or three times, but I heard connected. I saw the photos in these blog posts. I knew what to expect and still, my mind was blown when Mike and I got on this got on this FaceTime call together. It's unbelievable. And it's again, one of those things where the sum is greater than the whole or the greater the sum is greater than the parts are great. The sum is greater than the parts. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole person. Yeah. Yeah. I got a little bit of a bit bit, you know, but you know what I mean? Like, like the spatial persona was super cool. The freeform thing, super cool. The game room thing, super cool. Yep. But all together, like all of this was mind-blowing. I put it together. What have you got? Bibby, bobby, boo. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying when I quote Mary Poppins. Oh, I do. Yeah. That's not Mary Poppins, is it? That's Cinderella, isn't it? Yeah. It doesn't matter. When I quote Mary Poppins quote in Cinderella, as she does in the movie, and everyone remembers it. Exactly right. That's like the Michael Scott thing, right? Like, it's like the going grisky coat and then Michael's underneath. That's me. I know what you're thinking. Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's really incredible. If you have if you're lucky enough to have a vision pro, you must find someone to do this with you. You and I should like do cameo style things where we'll schedule 10 minutes doing this with people who don't have any other vision pro friends. Well, we can make that sounds that sounds like a September fundraising activity. Five of a hard one. I could be convinced. I'm just saying I could be convinced. All right, stop me before this gets even worse. What is something else we could talk about? This episode is brought to you by Fitbod. 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But you can get 25% of your membership by signing up today at fitbod.me/upgrade. So go now and get your customized fitness plan at fitbod.me/upgrade that is fitbod.me/upgrade for 25% off your membership. A thanks to Fitbod for the support of this show and relay FM. So last time you were on the show, which was episode 448, which was back in February of 2023. So it's been about a year and a bit. I created a new segment called the casea list vibe check. And I would like to reinstate the segment today. So this may become a thing that you just do every time you're on the show with me. Because Jason is clearly now willing to take weeks off, which only took us nine years before he was willing to do it. And a celestial event in this case. Yeah, well, last time he went to New Zealand and I was like, this is untenable, just take some time off. So what we're going to do is I have 10 words or phrases. You don't know what they are. I'm going to say these to you. You give me the first word or small phrase that comes into your head. And then we may go back and dig into some of these that are particularly interesting to me. So I have my list here. And I want you to tell me what you think. All right. Okay. Are you ready? Now I did not go back and listen to the last one, because it occurred to me, you might repeat some and I don't want to like inset myself. I was planning to go back and listen, just remind myself how this went. And I remember being a little dodgy on my part. So I wanted to re-listen, but then I decided, no, we're just going to roll with it. We're going to see what happens because I don't want to like, you know, it taint my opinions here. So I have no idea what's coming because we do have a couple of repeat vibes to check. All right. First one, AI. Everywhere. Oh, okay. Okay. DOJ. Failing. Wow. Okay. That's not what I thought. DMA. A lot. It's a lot. Alternative app marketplaces. Nonstarter. OLED iPad Pro. Neat. M3 Ultra. I am excited and also desperately do not want it to happen. WWDC 24. I think that's my answer. Okay. That's all I need for now. Vision of us. I want to see what's coming. Apple TV plus. Impressive, actually. And Mac Pro. Oh, please. No. All right. Obviously, the Mac Pro, we all know your co-host, especially John, will talk about it forever. It, you know, again, is always funny to me to try. It's always funny to me first to remember that he's still using that Mac Pro. I know. I know. And then for what, what's it going to take, you know, like that's, that's the way it's like a funny thing for me to think about. So digging into a couple of these. So AI is actually the one that I was most interested in to see where you're at. Do you use any AI tools? It's one of those things where it's, it's not. How can I phrase this? I need AI to figure out what I need to verbalize this. So I don't ever immediately jump to AI is like, Oh, I'm having a something I need done. Well, AI will fix it. I'm not at that point by any means. Oftentimes, though, especially, you know, when it comes to code related things, I'll flail around for how to do something and realize I just can't figure this out quickly. And I've gotten better over the last year or so since you know, chat GPT is really hit. I've gotten better at thinking to myself, Oh, you know what? I wonder if I could ask chat GPT this and I bet I will either get a good answer or an answer that will, you know, push me in the right direction. And I've gotten better and better at that. But it's still not the sort of thing where I have to get there by desperation, if that makes sense. Like, I would not choose to start there, but I oftentimes will end there because to chat, chat GPT's credit, oftentimes it does get me across the finish line one way or another, either by way of inspiration or by an actual solution. So I am using it some. So you're using actual chat GPT for the code question, you know, using something specific to code. Correct. That's correct. Do you, if you ever tried the GitHub stuff or Microsoft? No, I know, I know of what you speak, but I haven't tried any of it now. So you would just go to chat GPT, I assume the free version. That's right. And just describe my issue and say, you know, how do you fix it? And do you find it gives you good answers? In on some occasions, it will give me literally the answer. You know, there was a there was an instance where I wanted to create an enumeration, which is basically like, you know, you have a bunch of different options in code and you will only ever be one of them. And so I wanted to create an enumeration based off of some other piece of data. So I had a list of like 20 or 30 things and I wanted a code enumeration based off of those 20 different things. And I could do this by hand. It's not conceptually difficult to do. It's just a pain, right? It's a bunch of rote work. And so I said to chat GPT, hey, I have this, I think it was a JSON object. I have this JSON object and I would like, I would like an enum and enumeration based on this. Can you do that for me? And I think I had to phrase it differently one or two or three times. But then once I got it phrased appropriately, it was good to go. And so I saved myself a whole bunch of time, not just, you know, mashing on the keyboard doing the same thing over and over again by spending two minutes in chat GPT. And so that's a great example of it. On occasion, if I have a weird FFmpeg incantation, where I'm trying to convert a video from one format to another, I'll turn to chat GPT to do it. So yeah, it's definitely given me reasonable answers occasionally, you know, completely on its own without me having to like, you know, triple check or anything like that. Okay, I mean, I have two main uses at the moment. One is to help me rewrite stuff. I use a combo depending on the tool that I'm in. If I'm in Notion, I use Notions AI to do it. If I'm doing something that I'm just going to put into a random text box, sometimes I'll just use chat GPT. But my, the thing I'm most excited about right now is the service called perplexity. And I've not heard of this. It's a service where like they combine a bunch of different models together and have their own stuff that is sprinkle on top. I'm using it in replacement of trying to do 50 Google searches to get an answer for something. So that's what it's really good at. So we're going to Disneyland Paris later on this year. And we're trying to find some restaurants to book. Now, as a Disneyland fan, a Disney World fan, sorry. Thank you. Thank you. You know the issue of trying to search for anything Disney related. It is just SEO garbage website after SEO garbage website, right? And what I like about these tools is they will just read every website and find the things that correlate between them to give you the answers you're looking for. Like for searches like this, it's like so good at wrangling in the SEO destroyed web. Of course, the problem is these tools will also create more of this job like garbage content. But I'm trying to live in that perfect moment where I can get the answers that I want without, you know, stuff happening. Also, like also with comics, like a similar thing. I'm trying to pick up some like I've basically read all of the Spiderman comics I could possibly read or would want to read. And so I want to turn my attention to some different titles like I want to maybe read some Daredevil comics or some X-Men comics. And I ask it like, give me some suggestions. And I went up with these tools like to try and get the most out of them. I'll always give their pro versions a try, at least for a month. And with perplexity's pro version, it asks you questions about your question. So like, they understand the question. It's like, do you want good stories for an origin story? Do you want good stories that are short? Do you want good stories that are a long period of time that have some classic moments in? And then I can select just tap which ones I want. Then it goes out, creates a list for me. Then you can also collect up your answers into these little collections. I'm pretty high on this service right now because I just like it. It kind of sounds like I'm doing an ad for them. I actually think I would like them to sponsor the show now. So perplexity if you're out there, just send me an email. It's a service that I really like. So that's just intrigued. Why do you think alternative app marketplaces are a non-starter? It's too much work and nobody's going to. I mean, not literally nobody, of course. There are people who will care. I don't think it's as much work as you think it is. I mean, I think it's a lot of work for the developers. Yes, that's true. That is not what I was referring to for the rest. I was referring to what you think. You just go to a website, tap a button, tap install. It's not that long. If I recall correctly, the Verge said you needed to go to the website and then you needed to effectively introduce your phone to the fact that this marketplace exists. Then you need to go into settings and say to your phone, yes, I'm aware it exists. Yes, I would like to use it. Then you got to go back to the website and then you got to install the app marketplace and all this jazz. It's not an obscene amount of work, but I think it's enough that until we get something that's truly true, what I'm thinking of is how easy it is to install apps from the app marketplaces. Yes, that actually install the marketplace itself. You have to jump through a bunch of hoops, which I would be surprised if all those hoops will still exist in a year from now. That's also very, very fair. That is a very good point. But sitting here today is what we know now. I just don't think your average person is going to jump through these hoops. There needs to be some justification for it. As an example, when the iPhone first came out, I remember there was an app and I can't remember the name of the app. It was like iTeather or something like that. I forget exactly what it was. Basically, what it allowed you to do was tether to your phone. I forget if it was a socks proxy or something like that, or if it just enabled something in iOS, or at that point, iPhone OS. But one way or another, it was a way to let your phone tether, even if your carrier didn't give you permission to do so, and it required a jailbreak. I remember I desperately wanted to be able to tether, and I don't remember the reason why. I ended up only doing it a handful of times, but I jail broke my phone in no small part. It was like this, and whatever it was where you could drag down from the top of the screen, there were a bunch of widgets. Do you remember that? Do you know what I'm thinking of? There was like Wi-Fi on and off and volume and all that. Those two things were enough to make me jump through all the hoops of jailbreaking. Now, I'm not trying to say that jailbreaking is the same as an alternative app marketplace, but it's spiritually in the same direction. I can see the argument that it is for a particular type of person, and that particular type of person is likely to jump through those hoops. The thing that I wonder about is is there a breakout app that can exist? We're saying the same thing. That's exactly it. It is Delta enough, and maybe Delta is maybe that's all it takes. Or Fortnite is actually, that's a much, much better example, is Fortnite enough. If that I could absolutely see, what we know today, where Fortnite isn't yet in an alternative app store, they've said it will be, but it hasn't yet. Knowing what we know today, I stand by it's a non-starter, but I 100% agree, there can and honestly likely will be some sort of app that pushes people over the edge to deal with jumping through all these hoops. I feel like I know the obvious, but WWDC24 makes you grown. Mostly because I'm just sad that I'm missing out again, or at least sitting here now that's my expectation. You have yet to receive a developer pass. Well, I have officially been denied to developer pass. Have you been what they said? No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They went out right before we recorded ATP last week, so it was Thursday. I know they send an email if you get in. I didn't know if they sent an email to say you did not get in. Yeah, I mean, I can dig it up if you give me a minute, but it's nice to say they're like, hey, we're sorry. In the past, they have sent these out. Like they've sent out some afterwards, but I don't know if they're like. Yeah, and I think that is possible. And you know, it is plausible that I would get a press pass, but certainly, you know, the history indicates that that is unlikely. That was one year. I want to say it was 22. Maybe it was 21, but I think it was 22. There was one year I was off to press pass, but it was before Michaela was my youngest kid was vaccinated. And I didn't want to mess with traveling across the country. It was 22. It was when like we all found out like two days before us instead. It wasn't. But it was like, yeah, it was because there was going to be a developer event, and then all of a sudden it got bigger. And a bunch of people were invited. Yeah. And so I did get an invite then, which I declined when it absolutely murdered me to do so, but I'd stand by it. And so no other time ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, since I'd been going to WWDC in 2011, which admittedly was before anyone knew who the heck I was. I've never been offered a press pass to it. I don't expect you this year, but I would love to be able to go at some point to see Apple Park to see it, what it's like at Apple Park, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, I mean, I'm not, I've not been offered, and that was my initial gut reaction is to be selfish, to be honest with you. But more broadly, if I'm allowed a second, a second opinion on it, I am excited for it, actually, I'm excited for all of this, you know, AI stuff. There's enough smoke around here that there's got to be a fire. I'm excited to see what AI really means in Apple's context. I'm super excited to see what VisionOS 2.0 looks like. Because, you know, at this point, we have a point. We don't have, we need at least one more point to make a line. And I really want to see where this, this inevitable line is going to be reaching for. I'm trying not to use the word point again. So in what direction is this line going? Yeah, I'm pretty excited for, for WWDC, the potential of it this year, like, yeah, in for these reasons of like, is VisionOS 2 going to be exciting or is it going to be disappointing? Like, I hope it's going to be exciting. But obviously, the star of the show this year, I thought it might have, originally, I thought the star of the show would be VisionOS 2, but that was before AI reared its head. And Apple was talking about it and saying they have stuff coming. And, you know, and we obviously have heard things now, we've seen reports. And so, it's intriguing to wonder what it's going to look like. And is it going to be like a whole new way of thinking about using our iPhones, like potentially, or at least, with developers have brand new tools to create new experiences that come before. So I'm pretty excited for WWDC. But, you know, similar to you, I don't, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be attending this year. I've got some stuff going on in the summer and I think I'm going to be able to make it work. So that will be a shame. But I'm excited about the announcements that could come. Yeah, before we move on from WWDC, very briefly, I've been thinking, and this is not an original thought of mine. In fact, I think around the same time I had this epiphany, I want to say it was on Mac stories that John or Federico was talking about it. But I really am getting the vibe based on zero facts, just the vibe that we're going to see some sort of visual refresh for iOS this year. And it's going to look very similar to VisionOS. And I have no facts to back this up. I just get this vibe that that's going to happen. And I'm very curious to see if we do get some sort of visual refresh on the iOS side. How does that make you feel as an app developer? As a developer, I am not looking forward to it. Is it made easier by the fact that you use SwiftUI? I think it is. And because you'll get some stuff for free in theory. In theory, especially since I generally stick pretty close to the way things look stock. I mean, obviously a tweak here and there, but generally I don't go too off the wall with it. I think what makes me dread it even less, though, is having gone through the VisionOS native port, because it's not very hard at all to get an iPad app to work in VisionOS. In fact, it's pretty darn straightforward. But to take an app that has an iPad version, but make a native VisionOS version, you can flip that switch reasonably easily and just comment out a bunch of stuff that isn't applicable in VisionOS as an example. Like you can't change the icon right now of a VisionOS app. And so you just got to comment all that out. But in order to make a VisionOS app that feels good on the platform, which I like to think the call sheet does a pretty good job of, that's a fair bit of work. And it took me a long time to really understand what work needed to go where. Now that I've been through it, though, I feel better about it. And so I'm not nearly as miserable as I would be if I'd never done that effort. But as a developer, I'm kind of about it. But as a user, I like the look of VisionOS. I think it looks good. I think it looks modern. I like that there's affordances for buttons, even if it takes you looking at them first. But at least there's affordances. So I like it from a user perspective. I think it would be kind of nice. But from a developer perspective, why don't you want the M3 Ultra? Is that for yourself or just to exist? Because that means Mac Pro. In theory, it will also go into my studio. No, no, no. It's that was, again, me being completely selfish about Mac Pro related discussions, because my co-hosts on ATP, especially John, as you mentioned, are obsessed with Mac Pro, are very disappointed in the current Mac Pro. And so the M3 Ultra, to me, I associate that almost exclusively with the Mac Pro, even though you are 100% correct. And it's really more about the Mac studio, I would argue. But to me, it's a lot about the Mac Pro. Like if they had something above Ultra, like maybe that, because there was numerous in the extreme, for a while, that might be a Mac Pro only thing. But I would be really surprised if they made anything just for the Mac Pro, because that thing is hanging on by a tether. It really is. But I mean, that being said, the M3 Ultra is interesting. And especially since it seems like all of the M3 generation chips, they appear to all be bespoke, rather than kind of different cuts, both in a literal and figurative sense of other chips in the lineup. The M1 and the M2, it seemed like they had a building block and they just combined it or doubled it in different and interesting ways. Whereas what we've seen of the M3 dies is that they're more bespoke. And each M3 is just tweaked a little bit to be that one and only one thing. Honestly, I think the Apple Silicon story so far, especially when it comes to the Mac, we have been wrong in assuming that it was going to form a pattern. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it did for the first two years, but then now we've gone way off. Yeah, I would. I don't know if it did. Like they were doing weird things and like the we're assuming a certain type of power gain. And it wasn't necessarily there. Like I, and again, like one is not a pattern, right? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I'm intrigued about it because that's the computer I want next is an ultra Mac studio, which I'm sure will be incredible. And in that sense, I very much want this to happen. I would love to see what this looks like. And so in that sense, unselfishly so here for it, but selfishly, I really don't want to hear the boys whining about it for a while. Yeah, I just, you know, I'm using an M1 Mac Mac book pro as the machine that I do my recording on and stuff. And really for me, with the the reason I want to get the studio and I want it with an M3, I don't even think ultra like an M3 pro would would be fine for me. Yeah, I want inbuilt IO. And I want something that will last me 10 years. Yeah, in theory, 10 years, right? Like it doesn't go to, but like, I want a bit of headroom, which is much more achievable for me now, considering what I'm doing on this machine. But yeah, I've, I've really gotten, I think, the most of this Mac Pro, and I could keep running it for longer. But I really don't like having to use a dock for the important IO. And I just aren't enough ports on this machine. Yeah, it's funny, you know, I oftentimes will bring the computer to different parts of the house. I'm running an M3 Mac, Mac book pro. I had an M1 Mac, Mac book pro before. I probably shouldn't have upgraded, but I couldn't resist. And I'm glad I did, but I probably didn't need to. Nevertheless, it is not unusual, particularly when doing development work. So I have a phone plugged in, I might have an external display plugged in, or perhaps I have the vision pro plugged in. I can quickly run out of my three USB ports. And that's not even counting power. You know, I've got MagSafe for power. I don't think the machine has too few ports, but I would not complain if it had a couple more. Last one, I wanted to touch on with you, unless there was any that you wanted specifically to give more context on was Apple TV Plus, you said impressive? Yeah, I didn't expect much of Apple TV Plus when it was originally announced, especially since, you know, early on, all we really knew of Apple's entertainment stuff was like behind the app or whatever it was in that like, in the carpool karaoke. And there were like a couple of things early on that were just not good. But then, you know, Ted Lasso drops and what was that 2020? And ever since then, I feel like I have had many different people, both in and out of nerd circles, recommend to me a smattering of different Apple TV Plus shows. And we have not watched all of them, and we're not caught up on a couple of them. But any that we've spent the time to try, I don't think there's been a one that we've been like, eh, like we've loved, or maybe loved a strong, but we've, we really liked the morning show we haven't seen the most recent season. We've loved for all mankind. That's the best recent season. I mean, for all mankind is really, really my opinion. Shrinking is phenomenal. What's the one that with Ben, that Ben Stewart directed them, drawing a blank. Thank you, severance. We all, I think those are the only slow horses. We haven't watched that one yet. I know the kind of books that you like, right? And like, I know that we both like Jack Ryan, like, you like those kinds of like spy and that kind of stuff. Yes. But I think we talked about this on analog several months ago now, but I read the first slow horses book and I thought it was fine. Forget it. Forget it. Forget it. Forget it. I bet you I would enjoy the TV show quite a bit more. Gary Oldman. Less work is just incredible in the show. And I love Gary Oldman in general. So we just watched the Steve Martin documentary. Oh, yeah. How was that? Really good. Really good. It's three hours split into two parts. It's kind of like looking at back at his career and then looking at where he is now, which is really great. And we just started watching Palm Royale. I've heard of this, but I know nothing of it. It's really nice. Like, it's not set in the world on fire, but I think it is a visual treat. And like, it's, it's quite an interesting story. We're about maybe a third or halfway through. I would recommend checking it out. Like, that this goes a fantastic cast, at least Ricky Martin's in it, which is. Oh, wow. No, that's cool. Rich is amazing. God damn, does he look incredible? Mine. It's not fair. It's not a lot of time to be sure often. Oh, boy, Ricky Martin. He's like 55 years old, isn't he? Well, I need caution. But whatever the case may be, no, that's not at all surprising. There's a lot of either makeup or like smoothing with CGI on somebody's characters in this, but like, nevertheless, he looks incredible. He looks incredible. That's very cool. But yeah, that's really fun. But yeah, I agree. I mean, thing that I worry about the Apple TV plus is the viewership is very low. It's very low. Yeah. It's a bit is got starting to become a bit of a joke in Hollywood for that. Like people want to keep bringing shows to them because Apple pays a lot and they pay up front, which is not normal. And they are allowing people to take swings and take risks and, you know, as well, like it seems that if you do a project with them, they will keep working with you on new projects. Like it seems to be like that building good relationships. But the viewership is very low compared to the other streamers. I'm surprised. I totally believe you. I am not at all trying to argue with you, but I'm surprised that that's the case because again, I've had so many people reach out and say, Oh, severance is so good. Oh, shrinking is amazing. I mean, of course, this is regular. This is regular people too. It's not just nerds. I hear what you're saying and you're not wrong. They have the occasional break out, right? Like Ted Lasso. So basically, a lot of this stuff is the Nielsen Reigns, right? And the Nielsen Reigns are really low, but Ted Lasso, they made it into the top 10, but it's like the only time they've done that. So like they have the opportunity to do it, but the general like people are not watching content on these on their platform. And part of it might be is that they don't have a lot of content, right? So maybe when it looks like how much time are people spending on any streaming platform, apples might be lowest because they don't have 10 seasons of the office to watch, right? But they are low. And again, all we have is that data because no one will ever tell you anything, right? But they're having successes for sure. I just hope that they're willing to stick with it in the long term. There's no reason why they shouldn't be able to, though, because they have the money, right? But I find it a shame that that more people don't watch a lot of their stuff, which is like genuinely, you know, in the last five years, the majority of my favorite new TV shows are coming from Apple TV Plus. Yeah, which is incredible. And so I, like I said, it's impressive. I really do think it's impressive. Thank you for allowing me to check your vibes. Of course, my vibes may always be checked by you, Mike. I am here for you. This episode is brought to you by Vitalee customer success teams. Today, they're facing a new problem. How do they connect customer data back to their work? Vitalee changes that it is a new kind of customer success platform, an only one collaborative workspace that combines your customer data with all the capabilities you expect from today's project management and work platforms. Because it's designed for today's customer success team, that's why Vitalee operates of unparalleled efficiency, improves net revenue retention, and delivers best in class customer experiences. It's a solution to help your customer success team keep a better pulse on your customers, maximizing productivity, visibility, and collaboration with your team. You can boost your bottom line by driving more revenue per customer with Vitalee. And if you take a qualified demo of Vitalee, you'll get yourself a free pair of AirPods Pro. So if you're a customer success decision-maker actively seeking CS solutions, working at a B2B software as a service company with 52,000 employees and you're willing to explore changing customer success platforms. If you have one in place, schedule your call by visiting vitalee.io/upgrade and get that free pair of AirPods Pro. That is V-I-T-A-L-L-I-Y.io, vitalee.io/upgrade and get yourself a free pair of AirPods Pro when you schedule a qualified meeting. Thanks to Vitalee for their support of this show and relay FM. Let's finish out today with some Ask Upgrade Questions. Are you familiar with this segment? We have listeners right in with questions and then we answer them. We call it Ask Upgrade. Are you familiar with this, Casey? I am. I dropped the ball in the lasers at first. In my apologies, I completely forgot for a second. Good laser, I'm here for you now. Good laser. Lucky writes in and says, "How much storage did you both get in your Vision Pro? And how much are you using right now? Do you think base model storage is enough to get by it?" Don't worry about the number. It's not important. I was going to say, I'm not sure how much I'm using it. Because the answer is like... For me, I got the 512, the middle one. The amount that I'm using is just the amount that apps take up. I'm storing no content on this device. This was just a question at first of like, will I store anything? Will I have download anything on here? I wasn't sure. That's kind of my answer. Right now, I would say you don't need to do any other tier. The reason I got the middle tier is I don't know what's coming. That was kind of how I felt at the time. 256 gigabytes wasn't a lot, really. I thought, well, let me get 512. Let's say, for example, if I'm traveling and I download a bunch of movies, they're big files. We don't know how long this device is around for. If this hardware is around for four years, things might really change. That's very fair. I got the 256. I wanted to get in and out as cheaply as I could, which still was not cheap. I was in for a pound, pound, pound, in front of a pound. It's fair. I wish I had had the chance to check, but I know that I got the 256. To your point, the only real data I have on it is downloaded movies. The only reason I did that was for train travel actually leaving when I visited you in New York. I'm planning to probably be using it on a plane later this month for reasons. I've downloaded some movies on there, but other than that, I have no data on there. I feel like sitting here today, 256 is probably enough. Billy asks, how many domain names do you own? I did look earlier today to verify this, and I have 11. Only 11. Billy's question is, I hear Mike specifically mentioned very specific.coms that he shows, including upgrade, and I'm curious. You have 11. Do you have any that are interesting outliers? Do you have any domain names for things that are interesting names that you just got them for? Do you only have them for specific things? No, I don't think I have any goofy ones. I know on Bonanza may it rest in peace. That was the case study in goofy names for things. I have a domain for Michaela's name, which is parked effectively. I have a couple different variants of app-related domain names. I just recently registered a domain name that I might use in the future to represent services that are running out of the house. This may or may not ever be used publicly, but I wanted an actual domain name for it. What do you mean? What does that mean? I have some things, some web-based things that are served on my Synology here at home. You can't have a podcast with me without talking about Synology. They're based out of the house. Whether or not they're publicly accessible via the internet or publicly reachable via the internet, I might still want to have a domain name that will respond with an IP address that's only available locally. I just in the other day registered that. I do have list.family, which I believe just redirects to my website. I have a Declan's name as well. By and large, it's nothing that interesting. I guess the most clever thing that I have is accidental.tech, which I thought was kind of fun, which I believe just redirects to ATP.fm. But yeah, there's nothing that exciting here. There's 11. I have, across two hover accounts, I have 86 domain names. Holy Jamolys! Yeah, it's a bit of a problem. I turn a bunch of them off every now and then, so they don't renew. But I have a large variety of domain names, which are some of them they needed. Some of them, I have them, but they're not needed. Some of them are things I might use in the future. Some of them are just fun things that I like to have. A bunch of them are jokes, like 123membership.com, which I think goes to Connected's membership. I have fileafeedback.com. I don't know where that goes. I think it is too off-feed. I think it might be going to the feedback form for upgrade, but these are jokes I make. There was one time where I made a joke about you can spell getmoretechs.com, however you want. Oh, I remember this. That was a mistake. That is 11 of my domain names, is that, especially because it was made into an animation, so they're now on YouTube forever. I have a couple of interesting ones. I have paidcasts.com. Interesting, okay. Like podcast, but the word paid. I was just like an idea that I had. Sometimes I have words or phrases to pop up, and I'm like, "Is that available?" It is, and I'm like, "I'll take that." I have a few of those. Well, I'm looking if I have anything else in here that's interesting. Hackettnumber.com. What was that? I remember that being a thing. What was that about? I'm going to remember now. It's something related to the amount of computers you have represented in a constant based on a singular state of Stevens collection. You can calculate your own Hackett number based on that. There's a similar thing in the relay discord called the Hurley number, which is about your keyboard collection based on a constant state of my keyboard collection at one point. Yeah, I have a lot of domain names. It seems so. A merely eight times what I have. Your annual bills, I know it's probably the worst of the entire month. Especially because there is a certain time of the year when most of them renew, which is in the summer, is when all of the membership domains renew, which includes all of those more text ones. I have ones that were like for an episode once. We did ask upgradeoutloud.com where we had listeners submit video of them. I'll ask your questions. We should do that again at some point because I have this domain name. That's true. You might as well justify it. I might as well justify it. All of the max.com. I don't even know what that is. Some of them is like, I know these are like ref, there's a joke for something, but who could even tell what they are. I also have, so obviously my product, the sidekick notepad. People think I say sidekick notepad. I was one of my own sidekick notepad.com for this reason. You've got to perfect yourself. I have a casey list question for you right here. It comes from Mark. Mark wants to know, how much extra would you be willing to pay for a cellular Mac? I'm thinking of the option, how much would you be willing to pay to add on top of the price of a Mac laptop for it to have cellular connectivity? Hold on, I got to log into my bank to see how much free money I have. Really? Because it is all of it. What is a realistic surcharge that you would be willing to have? I think $200 or less, I'm not even blinking an eye. I think if $500, I'm starting to think, is it really worth it? I want this so badly. For those that are really into tethering, this probably sounds nuts. For those that don't ever work outside of a building, this sounds bananas. To be fair, since COVID has been settled down, I'm not going to sit here and try to say it's gone away, but since it's settled down, I will go into the library. I will go into Wegmans, the local grocer that has a really nice cafe area with tables and whatnot. I don't necessarily need this as much as I did during COVID times, where I would only want to go outdoors to a park bench, don't call it a picnic table or to somewhere else. Nevertheless, if I'm a passenger in a car, particularly on a long car ride, I'm likely to want to get a little bit of work done. It would be phenomenal to just open the lid on my Mac and effectively instantly have an internet connection. I would genuinely pay at least a couple hundred dollars, and I think around the $500 mark is where I would probably go, maybe tethering is the right answer. You know what I mean? I would pay literally hundreds of dollars to have this option, and it would probably completely neuter my battery, dramatically affect my battery life. Don't care. It's worth it, especially with the Apple Silicon when you have all that extra battery life. Anyway, I want this so badly. I would do almost anything for it. I want it. Give it to me, please. Yeah, I find tethering just like not in that automatic tethering, not to be a very good experience. I actually, I wouldn't say I'm a unicorn, but it works for me more often than it doesn't, but it doesn't work enough that it isn't annoying. Does that make sense? You know, it's still just annoying enough that I absolutely want for this. And plus the other thing with tethering is now, instead of destroying one battery, you're now destroying two batteries. You're destroying the battery of the device. You're using the battery of the device that you're tethering to. And I just don't like it. I just don't dig that. And so, yeah, I would absolutely without a shadow of doubt, I would love for this to be an option. Maybe one day, you'll get exactly what you want. You'll get your tethering, Mac. I'm not convinced that they will ever do it at this point. I don't think they will. I think we're more likely to get a touchscreen Mac than we are Mac with cellular built in. But for me, I would vastly prefer a cellular enabled Mac over a touchscreen Mac. I would like to provide some really important real time follow up that should have been sent to me to wrap up today's episode. Jason Snow was on Good Morning America this morning. What? Are you serious? Yeah. I'm completely serious. It's like a random passerby, or it's like featured. He is to do with the eclipse. And so, Jason was part of a video package. I think he called in from an airport about what to expect for a solar eclipse. I think it was like a pre-recorded thing. I put a link in the show notes. It's called what to expect for a total solar eclipse. And Jason features in this video around the two minute and 50 second mark. And so, he's calling in talking about his eclipse experiences. How did this happen? It's Jason Snow. What is happening? I know how this happened. I will allow for Jason to tell that story. Yeah, of course, of course, to tell that story. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But oh my good gracious, that's incredible. So, that is so funny. If people want to watch Jason Good Morning America, clearly he's upgraded from this show. He's not interested in this show anymore. He just wants to be on morning shows instead. He's like upgrade, no way. Put me on GMA only. And that's where he is in his life, you know? GMA today. GMA today. That's incredible. I think that's where DMA today comes from. It's one of those things. I don't remember which one it was. USA. No, it's USA today. It's this. Yeah, yes. The newspapers. Wow, that's bananas. I can't believe that. That's so cool. If you would like to send in a question for Jason and I to answer on next week's episode, or you have a feedback, we don't know who knows, yes, maybe national sensation. It's just a correspondent now. Jason's been discovered. But if he is back, you can send your questions in at upgradefeedback.com. Thank you to Casey for filling in for Jason this week. If you want to find Casey's work online, go to Caseylist.com. You should check out his app call sheet in the app store. And you can hear Casey's podcasts, ATP, and also analog, which is on relay FM with me. So if you enjoyed the two of us together, you can listen to a show that's us every month just talking. We're really just talking about our lives. It's just where Casey and I get together. We talk about what's going on. So if you care about us, you'll probably enjoy that show. You can listen to my shows like analog on relay FM. You can check out my work at cortexbrand.com. You can find us online. Casey is at Caseylist. C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. That's Casey list. I am at Hi Mike. I am YKE. You can watch video of this show, which this week includes Casey list over on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, where we are at Upgrade Relay. Thank you to our members who support us at UpgradePlus, go to getupgoorplus.com to sign up. Thank you to our sponsors, Vitalee Fitbod, Adblock Pro, and delete me. We'll be back next time. Casey, thank you for joining me. Say goodbye, Caseylist. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me. Goodbye, everybody.
Casey Liss joins Myke to discuss Apple's new Spatial Personas for visionOS, and their thoughts on an immersive experience from... Gucci? Also, emulators are coming to the App Store, and Myke wants to check Casey's vibe.
