(upbeat music) - Good morning, Joe, 4759, man, man, and his friend, Gunning, that was John Schneider. - He was only at 101 pitches. He had a ton left in the tank. What are you doing, Schnides? - Uh, joking, just definitely. - No, I, yeah, I got that. - And I understand the tone of the question asked by Richard Griffin there. But I also understand that, like, John Schneider's in a tough spot, man. Like, he's probably not likely to have a sense of humor about such things. This is his first and maybe only chance as a major league manager. And it seemed like an incredible, and it's an incredible opportunity. But it seemed like it was all in front of him, right? It takes over for Charlie Montoya with a team that's, like, really good, like, was really good. - Really good. - Had lots of expectations, and it hasn't exactly gone to plan, not only with the lack of relative, lack of regular season success in the playoffs, like, yeah, also relative success. I mean, Yankees fans would tell you that was, wow, you won 89 games gone into the playoffs last year? Way to go. But yes, relative lack of success. And the postseason success says there hasn't been any, 'cause they scored a run. They haven't won a game. I'll never forget it. - But also that he's now, like, the face of the front office meddling horrible decision-making stuff. It really, again, if you put thought into it, and I'm not asking people to do this, and I'm also just assuming, I don't know this explicitly, but talking to enough people, I think it's generally accepted that John Schneider, given his druthers, isn't doing some of the things that he's done, but his career, he should be a sympathetic figure, and I mean, one, I want the pressure to be lifted off this team with a couple of wins to make the fan base atmosphere a little bit better, and yeah, I'd not have the tension be where it was seemingly yesterday before the Blue Jays came up with that big two run single from David Schneider to expand lead from one to three. Also, just for poor John Schneider's sake, and I know that's what the money's for. He's making more than he's ever made in his professional life, and he is getting to sit in the chair as the manager of a big league ball club, but it's be nice for him to enjoy some success and not be the avatar for all things bad with this team. Yeah, boy would it. I mean, there's a million things there. Let's try to unpack them all. I mean, from the first thing you said there, the possibility that this is John Schneider's one and only kick at the can here, and that is not a John Schneider thing. It is the role of a manager in 2024 is, you want somebody that you have a good connection with, that you share a similar brain with, that you have brought up kind of through your system. That's not to say that he can never get a job somewhere else. I'm sure he can, but you look, and I don't necessarily mean that as a manager job, but you look at it as you want guys, unless you're going to go get your Bruce Bocey type, it's like you want a guy that you've kind of grew to be ready for this position. It's also a weird Blue Jays thing too, because Cito Gaston never got another kick at the can, and there's various reasons, and I'm sure he would tell you a few of them. Give me a ask them. John Gibbons, Charlie Montoya, and then let's listen. - It's a little different. - And like yeah, Gibbons and Montoya. - Manager of the year though. - They have jobs elsewhere. - Or was he just nominated, Montoya? - No, he didn't win. - Okay, he was nominated though. - Is that true? - It is, 'cause I remember him getting the votes and thinking that probably people read the stories, but the bongos and the team had done a 180. - Yeah, and it's tough. I don't know how to evaluate them playing in multiple different ball parks, or the pandemic of it all, but yeah. No, it's a Blue Jays thing that they have a couple of managers that have had success that for one reason or another haven't been able to get another chance somewhere else. But yeah, you're right to say that unless there's like, there's the occasional Craig councils of the world, but most of these guys, you're right, because they are in the John Schneider vein, one, you want them to have an institutional knowledge of the players, which is part of the John Schneider appeal, like was moderately manager for Bo and Vlad and Kevin, knows all those guys, knows the system, spend his entire professional life within this organization, is gonna take his marching orders from the people he has known for his entire professional life. So yeah, if it doesn't work out here, there's no other franchise that he's spent his entire professional life moving. Like even the Craig council, like to bring him up, it's like, it's just completely different can of worms. It's got a long track record as a major league player. And like, I don't say this to be Greg Schneider, we're actually bringing this topic up to say like, leave him alone, whether it's his fault or not to a certain extent, I look at it. And the other thing I think is interesting is that when I remember people getting angry at coaches in this city, forget specifically with this team, just in this city as a whole, it's sometimes it is a tactics thing or a lineup decision thing. But so often it is either a sloppy team or a team that we deem lazy or lethargic. And I don't think the Blue Jays haven't been pitcher perfect this year, but I don't think they've been some team that's been booting the ball all over the diamond. They haven't been making the base running mistakes. Like, I don't know, getting picked off at second base in a playoff game, for example. They haven't been doing that. Those are the things I normally lie at the feet of a manager, if not being prepared and not being ready. You're mad that the guys haven't been getting hits. He can't go up there and tell you when to swing. Sizzin' a Brock Purdy Kyle Shanahan situation, okay? So that's the thing I always come back to. And if you're using him as the avatar for the decisions made, I can't get mad at you for it. But it does feel like all the stuff that you should actually be mad at a manager about hasn't necessarily rooted his head so much this year. - Yeah, that's weird. So he gets booed in that moment. Guillermo Martinez gets booed in free game intros. Done mattingly. - Huge ovation. - Like, why? - I mean-- - I mean-- - Because he's-- - Donny baseball? - He's baseball. But yeah, he's literally-- - Literally-- - He's the guy. He's at the helm. - Yeah. - He's the OC. - More than a few people, you know, tamp down your vitriol or try to towards Guillermo Martinez last year and saying, "Ah, he's the heading coach." But these, you know, he's not telling them to not score a run. - Yeah, you should go up there and swing at the first pitch every time. - I think that line of thinking is tougher when they've done a complete overhaul and anointing Don mattingly like the face of the offense. That's what it is. It's not like, it's offensive coordinator, but it's like, figure ahead of the offense. Like, all things positive or negative about the offense. And, you know, I don't remember Guillermo Martinez doing like a media availability. Like-- - It was shocking. - Like Don mattingly's-- - We were talking with that yesterday. - Already done this season. And yeah, he gets escaped by because he's-- He is a former manager of the year in Major League Baseball and he's because he's Donny baseball. - Well, it's just, it's also weird because it feels a little and I don't think they would have thought it through this way. But it almost feels like, okay, here's how this is gonna work. John Schneider, you're here to wear our mistakes. Don mattingly is here to wear your mistakes, except Schneider still eats all the mistakes and I have a feeling if this team starts hitting, it's not gonna be John Schneider that starts getting all the praise for how great this team is and it's not gonna be him that's putting together the perfect line up every night. I have a feeling it's gonna be Donny baseball who's getting a lot of the credit there. He is in he being Schneider. And again, you know, boo-hoo for him. He's a Major League Manager. This is all part of the job, but he is in the no-win situation right now where unless this team wins and it is strictly just the most prepared ball club with great pitching and defense, but even then we just give Pete Walker all the credit as well. It feels like there's very little ways this season can play out that we're sitting here singing the praises of John Schneider 'cause if the bats start going, they've dubbed it. It's mattingly. He's giving to your points, giving interviews about it. That's gonna be his creation. And that's not true, but I think that'll be a lot of people's perception of it. And then if they start winning games 'cause the pitching's great, it's gonna be a Pete Walker story that we do every year rightfully so 'cause he's good at his job. Like it just feels like Schneider, there's no world where the needle can be threaded that we're sitting here having the exact conversation we just had about Sheldon Keefe about John Schneider where we're saying, what a good job he's done. - You know, what do you make of the media availability that Don Mattingly took? Because like we're so leaf-pilled here. And they never let their resistance speak. You can't even look at them. Don't look at 'em. Okay, keep 'em, Jay. - Yeah, it's Alan from the hangover in the gas station. Don't look at it. Don't touch it. (laughing) No, stop it. It's like the eclipse. Don't, you can catch a glimpse. Don't look right at it. - And I assume part of that is they wanna be on message and they want one voice for the organization. - Well, big part of it too is I'm totally blanking on the coach's name, Steve O's, Steve Spot, who went to like that coach's clinic. And then I forget what the exact quote was, but it was like a pretty, you know, not that big a story thing of just like, oh, you gotta coach these guys harder. You gotta lean in on them or something. It was a very wishy-washy quote that should be nothing and it turned it into a 37 piece. - Right. - Story about how you gotta coach these guys harder or whatever. - Yeah, it's just, yeah. - Well-boxed. - I'm leaf-pilled, but also, again, like I don't, maybe there were Guillermo Martinez one-on-one things, but I don't remember like what Don Mattingly did, which is hold court for everybody. - Yeah. - And be, you know, the news cycle of the day, talking about the wavy offense. It is interesting. Like, is that part of his new role as well? Like, offensive coordinator. Yeah, he is gonna wear the offensive struggles or the successes this season. - I think they want him to. I just still think that there's so much, well, I was about to say equity, but it's actually the opposite that's been built up by the key figures involved. Be it a John Schneider, be it a Vladimir Carrera Jr., be it a Bulbashette, that I really think that it is kind of all set up. And I don't think this is something nefarious thing the Blue Jays have done. I just think it's the way it's kind of playing out. And there is no way to know this until you actually saw it take course, but it's just he's gonna get the credit if it goes well. But if it goes poorly, I don't think people are gonna put it on, you know, the Hall of Am or the manager of the year, Donnie Baseball, I think they're gonna put it on the guys struggling or it's gonna go back to the front office roster constructions. And I cannot see a world where people are looking at this. And I'm sure if you're Gilmo Martinez, you're sitting there going, why not? People blame me for it all the time. But I really can't see a world where just given all the parameters here and giving all the principles involved, can you see a world where it's Donnie Baseball that's eating it from the fans? 'Cause I certainly can't. Yeah, it feels like the Dies cast already. Because, you know, what has done, like no offense is done mattingly. What has he done other than be Don Mattingly? He's already getting praise. Like he's getting applause. And I mean, it's one way to evaluate his standing in the fan base. I think it's the only one we've got. And I think it's correct. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. has the double yesterday. It's ball hard and he's all excited and that's cool. It's not a home run though. No. Do you remember the date of his first Roger Center home run last year? I don't have it in front of me, but I remember it being deep into the year. June 23rd, it was almost July before Vladimir Guerrero Jr. hit a home run at Roger Center. And Bluejay said a bunch of hits yesterday, balled in go over the fence. Where are you on the early returns of Roger Center? Perhaps not being the band box. We thought it would. And it actually being the opposite. And do you think, you know, the longer we go with Vlad not hitting a home run at Roger Center that this becomes a thing that the pressure continues to build and like those questions being asked of him and yeah, the late June mark again being brought up and part of people's consciousness. You play half your games at home. So it's not to say that you could just not hit a home or there and we're never going to talk about it. But I think so much of the tenor of this conversation will be about how Vlad's going. And yeah, again, Vlad's going to have to hit some homers to have a productive year. But he is not a he's not Adam Dunne. Like he's not there to hit 50 bombs a year. And that's that he's there to be a productive hitter who can in theory work great counts and is just lashing doubles left and right. And occasionally one gets out. I think as long as the slash line and the production looks what you would expect of the upper tier of Vladimir Carrero Jr. Then you can get by if there's a low or even a no home run total somewhat into the season at home. But if the production on the road isn't there as well and you're looking at a slash line like we looked at last year, then yeah, it's going to get really loud because that is an easy metric for people to look at. And again, it shouldn't be the way they do it. But when they close their eyes and think of that player, they think of him slugging. And I think this part has to be stated as well is that when the Blue Jays fans think of their team, they shouldn't. But they still think of it as just this team that just swats bombs and crushes dingers. And it's not that group certainly isn't this one. And so I just think that he's the guy who kind of wears that element of it, even though that's not necessarily the best version of himself when he's just going yard all the time. - Yeah, I think there's a lot there. I think the overriding point is that if he's just producing in general that it doesn't be, it's not an issue. - If he hits two off the wall every day, we won't care that he'd none went over. - Honestly, Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is a guy that builds an 850 OPS on the strength of like 20 home runs, but doubles, doubles, doubles. - 40 doubles and hitting 320. - Yeah. - Like that's good. - Oh yes, would you like to sign up for that? - He doesn't need to do that then. - He doesn't need to hit 50 home runs. If he's hitting 40 doubles, it's yeah, or hitting 320. - This is a story we didn't get to the other day. - It kind of flew under the radar, I think, for people. Hector Gomez, who is plugged into all things-- - Boy is-- - The DR. - That's Dominican Republic, if you're not cool, like Ben. - Yeah, correct. Retweeted a Spanish language interview one-on-one with Vladimir Guerrero Jr. a couple of days ago, and here is the pull quote from it, translated by Hector Gomez. I would like the Blue Jays to offer me a contract extension, but they have not done so yet. Right now, I am focused day after day. I'm calm, because no matter what, they are going to have to pay me sooner or later, whether it's this team or another. - Okay, again, like, that's translation, so, okay. The tone is lost there, baby. 'Cause it starts off with like, oh, he's sad, and then ends with like, oh. - Or else. - Yeah, I'm out of here. It is interesting, though, to be explicit in that no offer, no contract offer has been made to you, and we've heard like conversations about maybe like initial starting figures or conversations between the front office and his representatives. Is it possible his contract uncertainty has played into the mediocre play over the last year? - I suppose, but, and you know, you shouldn't like, you know, watch other people's pockets for lack of a better term, but it's like growing up being Vladimir Karajounian. This isn't a guy who's been like sitting here dying for his major league baseball paychecks so he can live the life he feels he should live. Like, he's, you know, been comfortable. And I think that that has to weigh into when you talk about this. Like, this isn't a, this isn't some, you know, this isn't Ron LeCunu. It takes like the first big deal that's put in front of him as a brave or some situation like that. The other thing with Vlad is, I think it can weigh into it a little bit, but also, this is of your own making. - What is the contract extension the Blue Jays could offer him that he would not deem incredibly insulting? - That's an interesting one 'cause it's like, yeah, 'cause to your point, he doesn't necessarily need the money. - No, but he wants the risk. - Of course, like, that's the thing. - He doesn't want that, he wants the money, but it's really the respect that comes along with the money. - But where is that? But he's also, like, he has to be realistic and that's what I'm getting at. - It's like, he's, it's not making like, show Hayotani money here. - No. - Like, honestly, the way the sport is going, like $30 million a year for Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Even if he isn't the 50-home run guy or he's like an 800-OPS guy, but he's, there is, it's not showing Hayotani with the ancillary money to be made of him, but there is some, like, he has name recognition. - He's not George Springer, like, quite honestly. - Yeah, he's, and he's gonna be, he's young, he's gonna be, like, if you, is it insulting to offer him like a 300 million 10-year contract, is that insulting? - Am I insulting Vladimir Guerrero Jr. by even posing that as a possibility? - Insulting is probably too strong of a term, but, yeah, I think you are a little, and I think it has to be, this part has, and I don't know how much this is, like, understood by other people is the respect he has among his peers, and I don't even necessarily talk about the peers in terms of, like, the Julio Rodriguez, peers of this era, but it's like, he'll listen to interviews with Patista. He will openly call this Vladi's team still. There is, he is getting that stuff, and, you know, he doesn't, you know, we can be as down on him as we want. It's still very much Vladimir Guerrero's team, or at least partially Vladi's team, and I think that that stuff is still getting pumped to him, and I think he still thinks of himself on a level, probably a little beyond what he showed in the past couple of years, he still probably thinks of himself as 2021 Vladi, especially, maybe he doesn't think of that of himself every day, but if it's time to sit down and talk contract extension, he still thinks he's way closer to that guy than whatever the Blue Jays are, that they are looking at him as right now. - Yeah, maybe. I definitely, here's what I feel pretty confident in saying, that you can very much insult Boboshette with the contract offer. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got no problems with seeing that. Easy, I think Boboshette wants to be paid, might be offended by us saying that also. Just kind of perpetually angry. I like that. - He wants to be paid by whoever the most, he's like Corey Seager, he's like, I'm better than that guy, and I don't know if that's true. He's healthier than Corey Seager. Get in the World Series, maybe he is, I don't know. But yeah, I think you can insult Boboshette by offering him an extension that he doesn't deem enough. I don't know, it's really hard to know with Vlad, but if he's realistic, he should understand that he's not making $50 million a year, unless he returns to the 2020, 2021 version of himself. Quickly, before we take the break, we get to our good pal Jason Bukola. This is a fun leaf season. I didn't anticipate it being as fun as it's been, 'cause it started off not so fun, 'cause we had to watch John Klingberg, kind of. - Boy, I remember. - He's drag himself around the ice, and Tyler Bertuzzi and Max Domi, those signings, looked very degrees of disaster-y. - Ryan Reeves, master's leader, yeah. - Yeah, at least we had the Austin Matthews hat tricks out of the gate, and you're like, "Oh, well, it'll be, you know, "he's going to have to do that for this team "to even make the playoffs." Well, he's continued to do that, but he hasn't been the sole reason they find themselves securely in a postseason spot. They've been physical, like Ryan Reeves, his punch guy's in the face. Austin Matthews can score 70 goals. William Kneelander had that incredible start, and he might have a 100-point season. - He took a shirt off on that Swedish TV show. He did all that. - Hey, this is- - The picture of Yarnkrock dying laughing at the front row with Cletenberg as a smug, the funniest leafs images I've ever seen. - It's just, it seems like an affable group. - Yeah. - Like, you got incredible stories, like Simone Benwald? - Mm-hmm, the milkman. - Emerging as a star, Bobby McMahon, who like you forget about with the hat trick, like, is this the most, it's not the most, because the most fun season was- - Yeah, the first year. - The first year, where it was, everything was gravy. Everyone was ecstatic. They'd awesome Matthews scored four goals, and they lost the first game in over time. - It was awesome. - It was apologizing. It was apologizing to us, and that's what we do. - Is this the second most fun season in this era? - Yeah, I think it's hard not to be a little bit of victim of recency bias coming off a week where Ryan Reeves got in two fights, and Austin Matthews can't stop scoring. - I know, I'm asking the wrong guy, 'cause you're like, oh, I like the one where they played the Canadian teams all the time, and I couldn't leave my house. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, I know it was so bad watching them just beat up on the Canadian teams all the time. - And suck. The end sucks every year for the Leafs. I don't know why. - Well, that's also playing into it. Like, there's obviously post-season pressure, but they're coming off a post-season series victory, so it's not as dire. - I mean, it's pretty dire. - It is, it's pretty freaking dire. The thing I think that allows this to be a fun year or more fun than in the past is how different it's felt, right? Like, you've had different characters, but it was Ryan O'Reilly and Luc Shen coming in at the deadline in Nolichari, or it was, you know, Ili Micaev, who is a nice story, but like, slowly built throughout the year, it was like Bertuzzi and Domi and Reeves just showed up on the doorstep and all of a sudden, I don't know, it's like you're watching a sitcom and it's like, oh, you got a new character. It's like this guy is living in the house now too, and it was a very different feel to the group. I mean, a guy like Domi, he elicits the feeling that cadre brought out of people for the first time since he's been here. And again, that's not to say they haven't had guys who tried to check similar boxes, but for everything, Ryan O'Reilly did. I don't think he was quite in the same mold as that. It's been Domi who mixes that combination of scale and bite and nastiness, and he'll fight you if you want it. And again, the Benoit thing, I can't be overstated as well. When you have a guy that is just pure, found money, he could fall off the face of the earth and not matter in the playoffs. And like, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that's great, but it's not gonna change the way anybody feels about Simone Benoit's season this year. So yeah, I think they've had just enough different characters and then the guys you've expected to be great have been great. So yeah, it has been a fun season. - It's fun. It's not over yet. - No, I'd play the Devil's Nines. - The fun part and the terrifying parts down the stretch. - Enjoy the fun part because yeah, you're right. It gets terrifying very soon. All right, when we come back, we'll talk about the fun part with Jason Buchola, sports and hockey analyst as the fan morning show continues, Ben Ennis, Brent Gunning, sports at 590, the fan. - Unrivaled insight, analysis and opinions on all things Blue Jays, Blair and Barker. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - Ben Morning Jones, sports at 590, the fan man and his Brent Gunning. I'd like to think that it was Connor McDavid scoring 64. That like Connor McDavid only scored 64 because Austin Matthews scored 16. He's like, hmm, enough of that. Like I can score 64 and Austin Matthews like 64. - That's it? - Oh, interesting. - You got that. - 65, en route to who knows where, but maybe 70. Time now for our insider, brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit donvalleynorthlexus.com. Let's talk to sports at hockey analyst, Jason Buchola. How's it going, Jason? - Good morning, fellas. Doing fantastic yourselves. - Doing very, very well. So I think we all thought that Austin Matthews was gonna be great when he was selected first overall by the Maple Leafs. Actually, I should scratch that. We hoped he would be great, but it was the Leafs and we're like, ooh, okay, hopefully this doesn't end in disaster as most things Leafs do. But then right out of the shoot, four goals against the Senators. I mean, in anyone's wildest dreams, could they have expected what we've seen now in what like year eight of Austin Matthews, maybe gonna score 70 goals in a season? - No, I don't think anybody would sit there and say that they, I mean, you always hope that there's gonna be a superstar like that on the horizon, right? It's fun for the game. It's good for the league. It's good for the franchise, great for the fan base, but I mean, he just keeps going and going. So it's, I enjoy watching it just like everybody else. And, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? 'Cause pucks go in for this guy that you take a look at it and you're like, geez, I don't know, could you stop that? And, but, you know, at the same time, they just keep going in. Like, he scores his 50th from like the goal line. He scores last night from long distance off his back foot. And now he's got a special knack for it. There's no doubt. - Yeah, that was, that was just as weird as shot releases I've seen from him. And like you said, we've seen him take just about every tact of finding a way to put it in the back of the net. But yeah, that was certainly a unique one in and of itself. - I just want to ask you about the kind of compete we saw in that game last night. I mean, obviously you're seeing it in spades from the pens in Sydney Crosby last night. That is a playoff game for them. They've been playing in playoff games for a month and they hope to continue to do so if this run goes well for them. You know, we talk a lot about the Leafs being tested at this time of year. And, you know, it'll be a little bit of a different animal tonight against the Devils. But just how do you feel the Leafs were kind of pushed in that game with the compete that the Penguins showed? - Yeah, I thought that they responded relatively well. You know, absolutely the pens gave them, you know, if you look at the shot attempts in the game, nevermind what they ended up on shots on net. But Pittsburgh was really pushing. Like that is the absolute best version of the Penguins that you're going to get out of them. And certain guys, I mean, I'm not so much concerned about, you know, how the math used, why I am come playoffs time. Obviously I want them to go to it and, you know, hopefully at another level come playoffs never my regular season. But certain guys in the Leafs continue to evolve, don't they? Like Benoit played over 22 minutes last night, guys. And I don't think that we would have been sitting here, you know, ever really thinking that come April, Seymour Benoit was going to be at 22 minute and that guy for the Leafs sent seven hits. So I think two or three blocked shots. So really nice things going on with the Leafs in certain categories. And I do feel different. You know, I just had a long debate with Luke Gadsak last week just in the studio. And I do feel different about the team, this year in terms of like last year, the trade deadline, I felt like we beefed up and we tried to prove to everybody that we can play a certain style. I feel like right now they've evolved as the season's gone on and they have a different feel about the group that feels better going into playoffs. I'm not suggesting they're going to have a deep run. You know, we'll see it's going to be hard, but certainly the group feels better from a compete perspective. - Yeah, just sticking on Benoit for a second there. I mean, it's always interesting when a guy kind of comes out of nowhere to, you know, take. No one's given it to him. He's taken in a prominent position on this team. We've been sitting here all for the, I mean, since the deadline, but even before then going, what is the pair the Leafs are going to trust? Are we overthinking this? That it's just going to be, that it's not going to be Simone Benoit and Jake McCabe. I mean, I feel like when push comes to shove, that is the pair that Sheldon Keefe is most often put together in trust, I suppose a healthy Joel Edmondson maybe changes that and you want him alongside McCabe. But I just feel like we've seen such a body of work from McCabe and Benoit that, no, they're not a perfect pair far from it, but for what the Leafs have, I think it's as good a shutdown pair as you're going to be able to build. Do you feel differently? - No, I agree with that. 100% agree with that. I mean, even if Edmondson comes back, it, you know, you've got something going there now and we're really close to the end that you feel like you can trust and you know what you're going to get out of the two. McCabe, they'll forget it started the year, kind of running around a lot, guys. Like, you know, chasing checks, chasing contact. And, you know, he's settled down that way and certainly having Benoit on the flank is complimentary to him. So I like it. I don't think he mess around with it no matter what happens here with Edmondson coming, you know, hopefully back into the lineup sooner or later. But Edmondson's had a hard time staying healthy and, you know, you ride the wave of what's going well and there's no reason for the Benoit and McCabe thing to get split up in my estimation. - Yeah, one of the key selling features about Joel Edmondson when he was acquired at the deadline was that the penalty kill, which has been good without him. It's also gotten some saves and I don't know how you separate the goal tending from the results that the PK is having, but just, you know, from what you're seeing, are there real changes? Like is the reason to believe that this has staying power with the Maple Leafs have done short-handed recently? - Great question and I wish I could just say yes. I don't, I don't know that I can. I think that your goal tender obviously has to be your best penalty killer and they've got some timely saves and Samsung have like, you know, Samsung have last night, same thing, you know, it's been better and there's been more buy-in, I guess, across the board, but you got to have some puck luck and you have to get saves. I don't know that strategically much has changed. I think that it's just a stretch of better luck a little bit, but certainly when you, again, going back to guys like Ben, Wama Cave, whatever, whoever you roll out there on the penalty kill, you know, mariners back in the lineup now, he'll take a roll in there. It's just going to be commitment, right? You got to, it's that extra half-step. It's that extra momentum getting into the lane and then it's that extra desperation stop. So when it's good, it's good. And sometimes it doesn't look like it changes at all, like the system and the puck still goes in the net. So we'll see, but it definitely has to operate over 80% guys come playoffs. - Yeah, one of the guys who has been, you know, I don't want to overstate it, but he has been a fairly key cogs since he's been brought over at the deadline is Connor Doer, but it seems like with the emergence of Ryan Reeves, that's the kind of guy who's the odd man out if Yarn Crock comes back into the lineup. It doesn't help Doer's case that Yarn Crock is also a guy you trust in penalty kill spots, but we know that the doer has the utility to kind of switch over to center. It's possible the Yarn Crock's not healthy and this is a moot point, but if it does come down to that decision for the least for kind of the 12th forward spot and maybe you don't see it coming down to a decision between Yarn Crock and Doer, but that's where I see it. How do you think Keith would kind of lean at the guy and Doer who's been doing all this, but Yarn Crock is obviously somebody he just trusts in spades? - Yeah, I think, you know, you said to yourself, it's going to come down to health. It's going to come down to execution of practice, what they're seeing in practice, you know, fitness wise. That's not forget that part too, but you know, come playoffs, if you are lucky enough, like they're going to play Florida, it looks like they're going to play Florida. It's going to be a rough and tumble type of series. Like Florida is going to wear you down and you know, it's Connor Doer able to handle that. Is Yarn Crock healthy enough to handle that? There's a lot of questions that way. This is a good problem. If you ever are going to go on and run and play off, so let's just say they, you know, they catch lightning in a bottle here. You're going to need 13 forwards at least, sometimes 14. And you're definitely going to need at least seven defencements. So it's a nice problem to have to have choices, I guess. There are some teams in the league, believe it or not, that don't have those types of choices. So this is competition is a good thing internally, but I see where you're going with it. I think they go at the veteran guy to start if he's healthy. So we've continued to see Austin Matthews and Mitch Marner separated on two separate lines. And shout out to your dog. Yeah, he's just saying hello to everybody here. Yeah, yeah, nothing like it at quarter date in the morning. Dog barking. But yeah, so we've got three separate lines with the core four guys spread out amongst them. How likely do you think that is that continues into the postseason? Interesting. Again, I'm going to lean on strategy similar to what Edmonton's done recently, loading up the top line there with Dr. Silen McDavid with Hyman. I think it's going to be situational. Again, knee lander splitting it up the way that it is right now. You can see how he's trying to balance things out. But listen, if you're chasing a game, come play off time. There is no tomorrow, so you got to do what you got to do. And that is load up your top six. If they're in control of the situation and the strategy is working fine. Keep it the way it is. But the good news here is that Matthew just keeps going, right? Like he just keeps scoring. Bobby McMahon is complimenting people up and down the lineup, which is another good news story. Like he can play in the three. He's not a one. Neither is Niza one right now. But they can play these roles and extend plays and provide some energy. So on balance, they become harder to check that way, which is a good news story. But I find it hard to believe that we won't see them back together for fits and starts and playoffs. Yeah, I'm sure we will. And honestly, I'm happy you bring up the McMahon and Niz point there. And Niz was here last year. And I suppose McMahon kind of filtered about a little bit. But they're obviously much more prominent members of the team this year. And you know, you throw in Dolby and Bertuzzi. It's nice to say you want to spread out the talent. But there's not a ton of point in having a William Kneelander on a third line. If it's, you know, no offense to camp and doer. But if it's camp and doer, he's doing it with. Like you need those complimentary guys to be able to spread the talent out. And I think that's something we may be kind of overstate when we've wanted it in the past, that you see it now this year, that they actually have the kind of ability to do that. They got two games this week, the next two, against the Devils here, a home and home. Very different challenge than a Penguins team. Not that the Devils aren't pushing for the playoffs, but this isn't Sydney Crosby staring you down on the other side of things. What do you think Sheldon Keefe wants to see? Is it just about playing as mature, a responsible button-down game? Because we know this Devils team, you know, they want to play responsible too. But the second they get an inkling of space, they want to run and kind of play firewag and hockey. Is the test in these next two games for the Leafs really just kind of showing there. And this award Sheldon Keefe used a couple weeks ago or using or kind of showing their maturity in these games. - Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, let's not forget when New Jersey came to town what happened last time, right? So I think you have to reflect upon that. - New Jersey is a good test. Well, even though they're not a playoff team, they've got some noise around them that guys are like, the coaches is auditioning to be the full-time permanent head coach for next year, for example. They got some young guys there, you know, the goal attending, you know, was what it was. Now you got Jake down there, they got, they have some things to prove here down the stretch. So although they're out of it, I think this is a good opponent for the Leafs and they have to stick with the process. They are going to run into some teams and playoffs if they're lucky to go beyond the first round that they button it up in the neutral zone and they're hard to get, you know, get passed and transitioned through the neutral zone. New Jersey's good that way. And then of course they hit it up by against you in a hurry. So this is a good test. It's fine. As a matter of fact, I would say these two games here are more important on balance than the final two because I feel like the final two we're going to be like staring down the barrel of, you know, 14 minutes from Assamatis, you know what I mean with those opponents. So it won't be easy for us. It's a good test. It's good to keep the structure in place. - Well, and if it is, you know, there you are, if those final two games do not resemble anything like the previous 80, and that's all we have to see of Timothy Lillegrine, which actually might be like optimistic, him playing in any regular season games, how does that impact in your mind his availability or the potential for him to be in the game one lineup? If that's the only sample we have of him returning from injury. Way too risky to have him in the lineup in game one. He was, in my estimation, he was competing for a position even before he, you know, went down. So, you know, guys, again, like Benoit, who are you going to take out? I mean, that's just a simple question. Who are you going to take out? We have a, it's the hardest time of year. Do you trust, were you trusting his process enough at that time to say, okay, he's got a for sure spot to begin with, my answer is no. So he's an extra to start. Yeah, it seems like the way it's trending. Jason, always a pleasure. Thanks for this. Always a pleasure to enjoy the day. Thanks for having me on. All right, you too. Jason Bucala, sports on hockey analyst and our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit DonValleyNorthlexus.com. What a bunch of twists and turns it has been for Timothy Lillegrine this season, who is going to head into restricted free agency with arbitration rights at the end of the season. And we thought we would know a lot more about his standing within this organization. But what if he doesn't play another regular season game or he does, and it's like he's still out of the postseason line up and Jason's right. Yeah, it's seven defense. But you need eight, nine, 10, 45 defense bench. 487. So he'll probably get into, especially if the Leafs go on some extended postseason run, he'll just see some time. We only need to knock on wood when you're jinxing a thing that could happen. Yeah, he'll probably see some time in the postseason, but it's hard to imagine him being in the elevated role that we were envisioning him when he was healthy. Like, yeah, it'll be interesting to evaluate where he is with this organization at the end of this postseason run. It'll be fascinating to see. I don't think it's a super easy road map, but I also think that given the returns that we've seen from this Leafs blue line, we actually spent the first 20 minutes of the show talking about the J's. But when we started talking about the Leafs, a big chunk of it was about Labushkin, the right shot D, who was struggling. And now, don't get me wrong. I don't want to see Timothy Ligren Morgan-Riley pair. I've seen that before. And my eyes have not recovered from the bleach, I poured on them to get that away from my eyes. But I don't think that they're, I don't think it's going to be overly hard for him to work his way back in. Not to say at the end of the season, like I do think it'd be tough, but the Leafs are not, and hey, this, feel free to prove me wrong. They're not just going to go choke the life out of Florida in five games, where there's no questions about the lineup through the first couple. He's going to get in, even if he doesn't start in. And I think that he's going to have every opportunity because he was building a lot of trust with Keith, especially if it ends up being some type of, let's just say it is Benoit McCabe, and then it ends up being Edmondson Ligren, when he's healthy, it's like, I don't know, feels like a pair to me. The Keith is going to trust a fair amount. And then you have Riley Labushkin up top. But again, don't take what I'm saying to say, I love the Leafs blue line, it's perfect. This is how I would construct my cup team. No, it's not. We've had this conversation a million times, but I think that Ligren, especially given the options around him, he's going to have the opportunity to show the strides he's made. Yeah, he'll have the opportunity, but I think like the Calli-R and Croc thing is more like, if Calli-R and Croc is healthy, like that's a guy you want in the lineup. Big time. But like, where does he fit, right? And he's right hand shot, but he's played on the left side before. I've been, I told you, I've been doing the lines, and I don't know what to do because Bobby McMann exists. Yeah, I'm not taking Bobby McMann on the lineup. Oh, God, no. I might take Matthew and I's out of the lineup. The problem with him is that, the problem with taking him out is that it's what I mentioned there with Buchola is that he is one of those middle six complimentary guys that you can see complimenting a Matthews, a Marner, a Neelander, more than you can, say, you know, a Yarn Croc's potential. Is that true, though? No, he's seen Yarn Croc in that spot. It's dependent on the player. It's dependent on how they're going. That one is enough of an open competition. I think that the other thing with Dewar that, and that's why I keep going back to Dewar is because it's the penalty kill thing. The reason he's in is 'cause he can kill penalties, but Yarn Croc wasn't have the offensive upside that Yarn Croc has. And Yarn Croc was the most trusted penalty killer of all the forwards, and, you know, maybe not most trusted, but most used of all the winger forwards anyways. So I can't see a word where you don't get them back. It's the easiest fit, right? It's taken out Connor Dewar. Yeah, but it does, but you can't overstate him what him playing center means. Like, that means a lot to the group and being able to shuffle things around with in game. If you do want to load up a line that has Domi up top and Marner and Neelander up top as well in the top six, you need a guy to play third line center. And, you know, Yarn Croc, this is a classic, like, curve footism. It's like, hey, you could do it. You don't want it. You know, no, it's not a thing that you want. And I do wonder, I mean, yeah, Yarn Croc. Lilligren Edmondson's gonna show up this week. It seems like Thursday. It seems like the target date for him. He's not gonna play tonight against the devils, but Yarn Croc and Lilligren, it feels, I mean, we were told explicitly, like, yeah, maybe some regular season games, but if it's regular season games, it's a little final, too, against the Panthers and then the Lightning. I think it's less of a shock to the system if it's Connor Dewar, right? Yes, Connor Dewar is a bit player. He was acquired at the deadline. Yeah, definitely. And Matthew Nye's has been a healthy scratch once I want to say this season. Yeah, once. And we'll see who's actually playing in those games at the end of the year. Like, maybe it's just a mishmash of players all together. But like, it'd be quite a thing for, you know, us to play this whole season where Matthew Nye's, like I said, various, yeah, you can debate what kind of a first full season he's had in the NHL. But at the time, he's like, it's been a big part of this team. And to go into game one of the post-season where he's in the press box would be, yeah, I think a shock to the system. I think it would be, it would be noteworthy, a lot more noteworthy than Connor Dewar, a guy that, again, was acquired at the deadline. He was well down the pecking order of the guys that they acquired at the deadline. But yeah, you could, it's, I can easily see a world where Connor Dewar is in the press box where Matthew Nye's is like, that's more of a headline item. Well, it's also, it'd make more sense if your encrock was healthy now. And you could, yeah, we're doing the experiment thing. Everybody's getting to Nye here. Maybe you give Bobby McMahon a night, even though he's absolutely playing in game one. But just, you know, for appearance's sake, everybody gets their turn and who cares what they, you know, it's not like McMahon has some round goal total he needs to hit or something. Unless I've missed it, he's not also on the press position 70. So I think that's the way you would do it. And then the number of goals is Matthew Nye's though. Yeah. It's like 20 fewer games. No, no, I, if you're asking, if the decision was, for some reason, it was like the cursed monkey's paws that I had to only have one of McMahon or Nye's in the lineup. It's an easy choice right now. And sorry to the Minnesota State product, Matthew Nye's, but it's like, no, no, Minnesota, just Minnesota, Golden Gopher. Yeah, Matthew Nye's not gonna be you. It's gonna be Bobby McMahon. Lots of decisions. Still to come for this Maple Leaf team. They got the Devils tonight in New Jersey. Time now for The Wake and Rake, presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown Sportsbook 19 plus bet responsibly. We got the Blue Jays in game two against the Mariners. Chris Bassett on the hill against George Kirby. Mariners continuing to struggle to score. As they are now four and seven on the season, the Blue Jays are slight favorites, but this is a coin flip. They're minus 115 Mariners minus 105. The total is eight, Brent. We're gonna go under again. I know the Blue Jays bats woke up yesterday. I know, I know, I know, but we're gonna go under again. We are. I know it's not fun, but it is profitable when they hit the under tonight, inevitably under eight minus 115. That's what you're doing when you're looking at that game. I think, yeah, I know I was with you and it did feel like a Raptors early season thing where we just like blind under bet the Blue Jays. I think that was a huge relief for them to come through in game one of the season. I actually like the over eight in this baseball game. Leaf Devils, as I mentioned, New Jersey. This one coin flip as well as the money line has the Leafs's slight favorites minus 115 Devils minus 105 at home, the total six and a half here, Brent. You know what? Let's get a little greedy. Let's go Leafs, puck line minus one and a half, get a plus 195. The Leafs are good. They have remembered this now and they're going to choke the life out of a devil's team that is in theory battling for a playoff spot. They want revenge, Austin Matthews wants 70, Leafs by one and a half. Yeah, I don't hate that. I also love the over in this thing. It's time to get Austin Matthews' cookies, I think. And yeah, the Devils are alive, but they're not really. No. There's absolutely no chance-- No, Frank, it stands monster than a devil. Yes, so give me over six and a half minus 125. And that was the Wakenrake presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown sports book, 19 plus bet responsibly when we come back. Ben Nicholson-Smith is the fan morning show continues. Ben Annes, Brent Gunning, Sportsnet 590, the fan.
