Radio Miraya
2846: NationWide: Lack of Government Delegation Delays Tumaini Peace Talks in Nairobi
We bring you latest current issues, discussions, and information nationwide, on Radio Miraya. Hello, good evening to you listening to the nationwide. My name is Saani Martin. We are coming to your life from Cuba this evening. Today, we will be looking at the lack of government delegation delays that to many peace initiatives in Nairobi, Kenya. To many peace negotiations in Nairobi have been delayed due to the absence of the government delegation as the mediator have informed the participants this morning that talks can't proceed without their presence. This is a setback because last week on Wednesday, the President of the Republic of South Sudan South Korea Mayard issued a decree removing Ambassador Albin Ummato Mayur from his role as the Special Envoy and also the head of the government delegation. The peace talks, which were scheduled to resume today, has been anticipated to continue as per the mediator's communication on Friday last week. And on Saturday, here on the roundtable discussion, we hosted the chairperson of the opposition called our group Honorable Pagana Mom, Bishop N. Oktombem and the civil society activist Edmond Yakhani and gave the perspective of the two men. And this evening, I'm joined by Honorable Dr. LaMakol Arjavin, who is the leader of the National Democratic Movement, the NDM, and also a member of the high-level implementation committee in the implementation of the RCS, signed in 2018. And we are going to be discussing more about it, good evening Honorable. And thank you so much for honoring our invitation, giving you a busy schedule, you have honored our invitation to come and be with us this evening. Well, good evening. Thank you very much for inviting me to be here with you some of the issues connected with the peace agreement. First of all, let's begin right away. As a member of the high-level implementation committee, what do you know about the government delegation traveling to Nairobi to join the whole group for this negotiation, as they were given a deadline of two weeks when President Willem Ruto came here last week? Well, I hope people don't make a lot of sensation about the fact that the government delegation did not turn up Nairobi today, it is understandable reason, because you remember the, or as you mentioned also, the shift negotiate of the government was relieved on when is there. So it takes time to make the necessary consultation so that you can, you can choose a new. So I think that is, that is the only thing that everybody knows. Secondly, the two weeks were not given by, by the president of Kenya, the two weeks were agreed by both presidents, they are the ones who agreed that the talks can resume and be completed within two weeks. So it is not like, you know, there were a side that was reluctant, and no, I don't think so. Okay. Yeah. But you were a part of the meeting here at the president's or guest house, I saw you actually there, when will the two weeks begin? Is it beginning today or last week or immediately that when is there, as per the meeting? The two weeks begins from the moment the two parties start talking. And you know, the, the date of 11th was fixed by the, the shift negotiator. So I don't know whether he has made sufficient consultation with the, with both sides. But I think that is not the issue, it will be definitely resolved soon. So do you anticipate the government team to travel as soon as possible this week, next week? What do you know? I don't know anything about that delegation, but what I know is that the government is keen to see that to my any process resumes as soon as possible. So I assume that the moment the delegation is, is formed, there will be trouble in for the talks. So they are news circulating on social media and verified information that names are being circulated to the president for an eminent announcement of the head of government delegation, have you come across that? No, no, actually not one of our, our mandate as the high level delegation, high level revival. I mean, high level is standing committee for the implementation of the R axis. This is government business, so it is up to the government to form the delegation for whatever time they choose. Okay. And then on Saturday, we hosted, like I said, an activist, Edman Yakhani, and he said there appears to be two competing parties within the government delegation that needs to come to a consensus. He said there are these proton mine and anti two mine group within the article. What is your comment on this statement? Well, before I comment, I think people need to put the whole thing into context, because it is too easy to, to point fingers when people have not yet graphs. What is the, the context is that, you know, in, in 2018, precisely on the 12th of September, 2018, there was an agreement that was signed. And it was called revitalize agreement on the resolution of the conflict in the Republic of South Sudan. And that one took about a year to negotiate. We started in December, 2017, and as I said, it was signed nine months later. Yeah. By that time, some of the parties to the talks declined to sign the agreement. They said it did not address the root causes of the problem. The rest of us, we thought that the provisions of the agreement are good enough for us to, to make peace. And we signed and we came in and we, we formed the government of the transitional government of national unity. But after that, we, we, we said that it is not enough to be the only ones, you know, doing the implementing the piece with, we decided as parties to the agreement, not yet get the government because the government will not form until February 2020. But in 2019, the parties who signed a peace agreement decided to look for those who have not signed in order to have an inclusive piece. And that was a background to the Rome talks that was mediated by Senegidio. Yeah. It was an effort to see that the peace agreement is inclusive of all. So the, the Rome, the Rome process went ahead. They even signed a declaration of principles. And somehow in the middle, it got installed for number of months, yeah. And then in December, we had the announcement that the president has sent a letter to president through to, to mediate between the government and the whole out groups. And as you know, the, the president of Kenya took it seriously. He invited almost everybody who was in a position. They responded, some of them came, some of them rejected, you know, and the government engaged them. So now when the people talk of Tomaini, Tomaini did not come out of a vacuum. It is a continuation of the process started in 2019 by the government. Okay. In order to bring on board those who did not sign the peace agreement in 2018 and those who later on also rebelled against the government afterwards. Yeah. And so in order for you, for somebody to say that, you know, there is a, there is a dichotomy yeah, of positions in the government is not that correct. Okay. What do you say about this also concerns that the people are saying that there are concerns that some of the Tomaini protocols are implications of the analysis. Is that a valid concern? This is true. Well, of course, as, as the process developed, there were some statements coming from Nairobi that the Tomaini is a standalone agreement that Tomaini replaces old previous agreements, you know, and this created concern within the government. And I think you remember that one of the parties withdrew its members in the delegation. Yeah. Of the artygono that the Nairobi there's been a result of what they saw as a deviation from the R axis. So in fact, what needs to be clarified now as we speak, because it seems that people are still talking things that are not very clear. What is the relationship of the process in Nairobi to the R axis, which is the agreement now in place, and which is the basis of legitimacy of the current government? What is, what is the relationship because once we answer that question, then everything else will fit in. Yeah. And that's supposed to be my question. How do you think the Tomaini peace initiative will complement the R-R-S-S or any of the agreements? Yeah. This is a point I'm saying, those in, on the other side say, well, the Tomaini is supposed, you know, to be the last hope, that Tomaini is going to bring peace to South Sudan. Right, we don't want to discuss that, but how is the question? They say that the Tomaini will include the unimplemented provisions of the R axis, and then the new ideas that will come from there, and this will be what they called the Tomaini. Then the question is, what do you do with the rest of the provisions in R axis? Are they counsel? Are they no longer valid? And if they are not valid, what is the mechanism of making the chain? Because R axis is an agreement that has been incorporated in the constitution. Even that it says that if there is a conflict in provisions of the R axis and the constitution, the one of R axis prevails. So for us to be able to do away with R axis, we can only do away by amending it, you know, we have to amend R axis to say that this, this kind of agreement is no longer relevant, and now we have a new one. So there is no way you can replace provisions in R axis without you saying clearly, is R axis alive or dead? Because R axis, when it was negotiated, it had to replace the agreement that was there before, which is the R axis, the one of 2015, yeah, it had to replace it and take its place. So the R-21, the R axis of 21, 15 was no longer valid. It was replaced by R axis. So are we replacing R axis with humanity? Let us be clear. If that is the intention, if that is the intention, then it means that we will have to follow the procedures which are in R axis in order to change it with another agreement. But honorable, what is your take on this notion coming from all corners, that there are some signatures to the R axis who are against it to my own peace initiative, they don't like it completely. That's why even right now, the government delegation are unable to go back to Nairobi and join the whole data group, because for them, as part of the communication we are getting from Nairobi, and it is also confirmed that the opposition holder says we are ready to resume the negotiation where we stopped. You see, when somebody says that there are people opposed to Mayini, you know, the question is, what is to Mayini? What is equal to Mayini for somebody to be opposed to to Mayini? This is what I told you about. What is to Mayini and what is his relationship with R axis? Is to Mayini a replacement of R axis? If it is definitely not only some, everybody who is a part of R axis will oppose it. As a leader of NDM, what is your stance only to Mayini? I am saying, this is what I am talking about now, and that will answer some of the question you have mentioned before. Because we judge to Mayini from the protocols that were agreed by the delegations in August, which our delegation brought here on the 30th of August, this is what we judge. That would have been the agreement called to Mayini. So we analyze that, when we analyze those protocols, we found out that most of the provisions are copied from R axis, R repetition of R axis. So if the repetition of R axis, then what is new? Because for us in the NDM, for us in the NDM, we thought that the first thing that should have been addressed in the peace talks, should have been the whole out groups to explain to us what are the root causes we they thought were not addressed by R axis, we they need to be addressed in order to join the peace process. Because some of them were results in the talks, what are those root causes? This is one. Number two, we all acknowledge that the R axis have failed to deliver on the its provisions on time as agreed by all, this is true. Because this is why people have been extending the transitional period, because you could not implement the agreement on time. So that is a weakness that appeared, but it could not have been predicted before, before signing that you could not have known that this thing will be done on time or not. Now that it has happened, we expected the talks to focus on how do we address, how do we address those failures? What is it that made the agreement not to be implemented on time? And how do we correct that? Yeah. These are the two things we thought should have been addressed by the, to my any process. Okay. Now, the chair person of the person, all that group, who is also the leader of the Red Spellum Honorable Paganam says, the 90 protocols that were assigned initially in the KN capital of Nairobi before the talks stalled, the person says they are not ready to renegotiate any of those protocols, and has part the media reports, one of the, some of the concerns by members of RTGONO is that of the National Leadership Council, the National Implementation Oversight Commission, and other bodies. First of all, what is your reaction to this statement by the whole that group that even if the government delegation goes back tonight or tomorrow, they will not renegotiate anything they already signed, that already was signed by the parties, including some of the government delegation, who will go back? Well, I don't know because it depends on how we interpret the signature. We were made to understand that what happened in Nairobi was initially the two delegations initialed the documents that nine documents, whatever they are, the documents that they have agreed, but each party is supposed to go back to its principles so that they agree on that, and it is signed finally. So initial is the first step, the signing is a prerogative of the principles, the government in our case, and the leadership of the opposition on the other side. So for somebody to assume that what the delegation has agreed is final, then we don't know what is the reference that the delegation is supposed to consult with its principle before the principle gives the final authority to sign. Let me give you an example, yeah, in 1972, when the Disababa agreement was negotiated, the SSLM delegation under the use of Lago and the government delegation, they agreed on the 28th of February to initial agreement, the disagreement is okay and fine. Then it was supposed to be ratified on the 3rd of March, 1972, by the two leaders. Yeah, for Numeri on the side of Sudan and General Joseph Lago from the side of SSLM. So when the draft agreement was given to Joseph Lago, he said no, he has concerns. He cannot approve it as it is he had concerns addressed. So he came back to this with the delegation and then he raised his concern and they were mainly regarding the position of the Ananya in relation to the southern command, because the southern command said there will be half from Ayyanya and half from the Sudan government, you see, army, no, half South Sudanese and half northern component. So Lago said no, if you say half South Sudanese, but the South Sudanese who are part of the nation, how does Lago manage to reign negotiate this and it was given to him after that he signed. Okay. So how does that relate? The last word in signing any peace agreement is the principal, which chose that delegation to go and negotiate on his behalf. So with all this ups and downs, with all what is surrounding the Tumani, what is the face of the Tumani then? Because this is something that was initiated by the president and he was so passionate about it. But now one of the many concerns that has come up is even the government delegation that came back to Juba to brief the principle we are talking about have not been able to meet the president, even the meeting between this delegation and the high level standing committee of on the implementation of the analysis, sometimes but the meeting almost never happened. So this is some of the concerns right now people are talking about, how do you address that? Well, thank you very much. I think that is a very important point is a very important point in the sense that you know the government, the transitional government and the national unity is a coalition government. It is a government made up of initially five groups. Now therefore because one group got absorbed into the SPF, so being a coalition government they must have consensus on any issue because what will be the use of Tumani if the end of the result is to have some of the people leaving the government and they joining. Where is the inclusivity? Because the inclusivity we want is to maintain those who are there and bring in the new people. Well, not necessarily accommodate but that they have joined the peace process together with us right now. The government delegation brought these protocols all right. It is not true that they did not meet the the principles. They came on the 30th of August on the 31st the president left for China. He instructed them to go and meet the first vice president and also meet the other vice presidents and bring them on the progress of the peace talks. So unless you want to say that the principle is only the president then there is another matter okay. Now when those people were met they called when the president came back he called a joint meeting between the presidency and the high level implementation committee. The high level in parliamentary committee was mandated to go and look into those protocols of the proposed by the Tumani group and then make recommendations to the leadership on how to proceed all right. One of the things that were that was the task that was given to that high level standing committee was to meet to meet the our delegation that went to Nairobi to negotiate into my new process. And that meeting was arranged okay yeah unfortunately there was a you know lack of comprehension of of the mandate of each okay what what did they expect from us and what do you expect from them. I don't want to get into detail okay but the communication did not go as expected okay so right the high level committee went ahead they made their study they gave their study to the presidency okay. Now I want to assure you that the first thing in that recommendation is that the government is committed to the continuation of the Tumani talks. As you said correctly it was the government that initiated it. So it cannot it cannot be the government to say that Tumani process is no longer valid. So the government is committed today to my new process okay. This idea of saying that there are people opposed to my new and there are people who are supporting Tumani to me is based on hearsay. So it is not true that the government is divided over to my new. Any government you have different views isn't it yeah if you talk to me I will have a point of view yeah if we talk to somebody else it has a point of view even us in the high level is standing committee who could have different views but at the end what is agreed is the government view how is what is agreed now is the government view if somebody else was against it yeah it is no longer valid because all the parties have agreed on a common position okay yeah and you you were part of the government delegation that toward the region or the high level implementation committee that toward the region you and Kenya you and Uganda you went to Ethiopia first of all what was the main agenda of this tour the region. The main purpose of the of the of the tour is very simple we wanted to go to explain to President Ru to the reality of government position because there were a lot of of misinformation it was it was as you said now that the government refused to meet to meet the delegation that the government is divided that those supporting Tumani and the those who are against yes that the extension of the transitional period was a way of undercutting the Tumani to Miami and so on so we wanted to go after we have agreed now as a party to the peace agreement and now we have a common position we wanted to explain to President Ru to the way forward for Tumani so we went and found out that he was he had he was informed that that agreement is final at the protocols yeah where a final agreement we went and find that out there also we went and found out that he thought that the extension of the transitional period was a way to undercut the peace the peace agreement and so on so we have explained to him all this that the concern of the government is the clarity okay we want to be very clear clear what is the relationship between the Tumani process and the already existing are access did the tour meet its expectation did you succeed in the tour was a tremendous success I had somebody say yeah it was a tremendous success and that's why President Ru to kill okay it came here to listen to the government on how to proceed on the Tumani to confirm the question people are asking that if you are ready for the government is united over the Tumani why didn't you include one of the members of the government delegation to kill either Honorable Michael McCoy or Acol Paul or anybody from the team that has gone to Naira between negotiating with the whole that group why did you skip all of them and decide to go ahead the only members of the high level because some of them also members of the high level implementation committee by the way we're not going to negotiate no but he should have they were not there do you need a discussion mm-hmm they were not there during the discussions on the government position they were not there mm-hmm so you can only take people who have been part of the discussion because they know the background of what has been taking place and after all the representation is according to the parties to the agreement the delegation that one included SPLM it included I/O it included SOAR it included OPP you know yeah and it included also part of the of the IT GONO of that time yeah which is a the national agenda okay so it is it is a party to the agreement that are in the delegation to stress the point that all of us who formed the transitional government of national unity are united behind this position okay that we are telling the president of Kenya okay then after that we went to Ethiopia also they are important as you know I got was the mediator or T GONO I mean of our axis yeah and in the main countries of I got what they used to call the front line is state where for okay it was Ethiopia Kenya Uganda and Sudan but of course you know what is happening in Sudan yeah and so on so they needed also to be in picture because the same the same talk which are being spread they also reach the okay yeah now has more focus on now being derived towards the to my NPS initiative it seems like nothing completely is being implemented followed after the extension has a member of the higher level implementation of committee what is going on what is being implemented right now in the analysis has a speak after the extension we are now almost two months by the way we need to make a realistic appraisal of last extension and this extension this extension was based on recommendations of the institutions that are implementing the peace agreement the first section there were no institutions they were not there so it is not as implementing these institutions are already involved in the implementation process from what you know what is going on now what is being implemented issue institution is implementing its mandate the national election commission is going ahead with his mandate the political parties council doing what is supposed to do the security related in institutions are doing what they are supposed to do and so on so it is not a particular body like it was before yeah that it was the politicians who were taking decision now it is an institution that are mandated to implement what is required by the agreement okay the high level standing committee has been given a mandate to monitor and evaluate the implementation process okay so will we we we have we have the details of what ish institutions will want to do month by month so and budget by budget correct so every month will will look at it what did you do what did you not do and then accordingly we make the necessary do we our recommendation to the leadership to make the corrections do we have a a detailed matrix with the confirmed budget for the new extension we have detailed detailed matrix we have the budget divided according to the matrix you know because the matrix mean you have timelines and each timeline has his own budget you know these are the ones that add up to be the overall budget of that particular institution okay so we have that but of course to say that it is confirmed it is a work of the of the miniser of finance to avail the money okay yeah all right if you have just join us right now you can call us on 0 9 1 2 0 6 7 8 79 or 0 9 1 2 0 6 79 29 or 0 9 1 2 0 6 8 1 0 1 and in the studio I have honorable dr. Lamma call as a win who is the leader of the national democratic movement the NDM and also a member of the high level implementation committee in the country and we are discussing a physical about it to mine and also the implementation of the agreement you can call us and ask your question with these remaining a few minutes hello Eddie Mirai hello good morning Santa Marta yes your name yeah this is the ending in wow okay go ahead gang yeah thank you my great one of all the girl um actually you have but right here I'm there is my contradiction to what you said and to what the honorable for gonna move said yesterday round table yes yeah so there is my contradiction and complication and that brought me confusion and if some listen as well listening yes and also maybe they have confused because the gun was saying that they will there will be no renegotiation and he's saying that suppose to be there renegotiation I'm asking him question in case the opposition all our group in Kenya refused not to touch any protocol to be actually really negotiate to want it to be silent that so what is the position of NDM as a party that's one okay I'm just asking you as NDM another question is that you know the bike lights agreement yesterday was been called by Dr. Bogana mum that the agreement already collapsed is a failed agreement because he was being questioned by this video that these are to mind it should be actually not oversight but shall come as a complementary agreement to actually incorporate to our axis but you were saying that no arach is a club he's already a failed agreement that now the two mind is coming as a pull force to actually implement to directly support the access to implement because arach is already failed they are coming to bring peace so what do you say that I want to understand because okay I need him to explain very well because he said that all the arach is as a failed agreement you will not be the mind is coming as the pull force agreement to actually address the concern of the people of south of us okay the young then from wow thank you so much yes uh let's begin with a last question from the young then why is the to mind peace initiative seen as the only viable way to lasting peace in the country and yet we have an agreement being implemented in the country these are some of the common sentiment we are hearing all the time and people believe that uh to mind is the only savior in this case here uh first of all I want to do that that is what he called contradictions yeah because he also seems to contradict himself he says that they to mind me I mean the arach is has failed and the to mind is coming to complement that's what the opposition are saying not him yeah because yeah there's because and now if the thing has failed how can you complement it you know that is the what what looks like a contradiction between the what he's saying you know there is a lot of misconception the the to mindy the to mindy is not an negotiation to bring about peace in south Sudan because I think it's also done enjoys peace already the to mindy process is meant to bring about inclusivity so that you have a sustained peace there is difference between bringing peace and sustaining what we have yeah because if if you have parties that are not part of the peace process okay they are they are capable capable of disturbing that peace at some stage and therefore you not have a sustainable peace so what we are looking for into mindy is the inclusivity that will help us have a sustainable peace it is not that we are looking for peace the peace is already there yeah in south Sudan as a result of the araxis but because our objective is to have a sustainable peace we need everybody to be on board the peace process okay so that is so anybody who thinks that it is the only way to save you know the peace is that being accurate okay the question of the young again part of that question you have answered is that what about if the whole that group declined to renegotiate what they've already initialed like you said in the beginning what is the person of end them as a part not end them it is the parties to the peace agreement yeah yeah if they refuse of course that will be unfortunate because everybody knows in negotiations all over the well yeah that delegations are not the final authority delegation don't sign agreements without the approval of the principles that delegated them there is a principle in law we say is a delegated authority cannot delegate authority yeah you know so they have been delegated to negotiate on behalf of the principal so that we have to bring back what they had negotiated to the principal and it is up to the principal to say this is okay or this is not okay now if the principal says this is not okay they have to take it back to the other side they look you know our side has comments on this if they want to look at it they discuss it if it doesn't want to look at it of course who will sign because signature is at least the two sides the other side will not sign without discussing the concerns yeah and we we have a couple of SMS coming in here this one is saying that has an article has a member of the analysis did you receive the letter that was announcing the resumption of the peace talk today Monday by the chief mediator and if yes why did they parties the agreement failed to send their delegation to join the rest in Ayurveda today else from tap in Ben too I think I touched on that before that the the business of forming delegations is not the work of the high level yeah standing committee it is the work of the government and I am not also sure whether the chief mediator when he fixed that date he has made consultation with the government because on Wednesday as we have already seen on Wednesday the chief mediator was here yeah when that announcement was made of relieving the chief negotiator yeah so you definitely expect time for more consultation for consultation in order to appoint a new one so it takes it takes time to have so you have Wednesday only the two working days are Thursday and Friday and then Monday is supposed to be the day which is today even if the delegation was chosen on Thursday you know they cannot be traveling so soon to arrive there on Sunday to be ready for the talks on Monday so I think this is understandable the delay is understandable it is not something that was intended or it is not something to make capital out of yeah that the government has failed to turn up and all that it is a government which knows if they have been consulted about the day to be the 11th then the failure to turn up will be there there will be the cause for it okay now or if they were not then you cannot blame them okay what do you think in your opinion as a politician should be done to clear this misinformation surrounding the tomani peace initiative there are a lot of misinformation going on like you said you have to move around a region to clarify some of this but is what we are doing now even when we are talking inside here even when we are talking now we are clarifying yeah things that are are set by people who are not simple people yeah that tomani is is made to look as if it is something you know different from what the government initiated in 2019 it was in 2019 that people started to talk to the to the whole out groups and other opposition parties okay the purpose for it is to have inclusivity okay in the implementation of the peace process okay and finally as our time is up in the community it is mentioned that a guard should be involved in this peace initiative how important is it to have the backing of a guard well a guard was the mediator for the or the r-axis and he got i believe it has it has been involved in in the room the room negotiation they were there even in tomani now they are there i think they are co-share or something in in the tomani they are there but that is a stress it's the stress of the role of we got as the party that negotiated r-axis is what is being stressed i think they have not been totally away okay and finally there seems to be a lot of anxiety and frustration on how the parties are implementing the agreement the implementation is at a very slow pace the last one which is ending next year the roadmap we are told it was only 10 percent that was implemented what do you think the parties should do now to accelerate the implementation of the peace agreement in the remaining in the next extended three years before elections are done in 2026 well before i answered that i want to assure the citizens that tomani process is on course let nobody say that the government is opposed to tomani or that the government is divided over tomani we as party to the peace agreement have discussed through the way people who also opposed tomani from the angle that they did not understand it or because of the statements that were coming out that the tomani will replace r-axis and so on but the government discussed those and we have now a common view that will continue with the tomani and but certain things need to be changed for us to sign it okay yes like uh like this uh prohibition we are talking about this national the n_i_c_ and n_l_c_ uh-huh yeah we have rejected it before and uh the the all the parties are agreed that it is okay it is very unnecessary all right thank you so much we we are running we are we are we have run out of time and the news is coming next thank you so much i honor about dr llama kola jowin the leader of the ndm and uh the news is coming next at the top of whatever in english my name is sanny martin stay tuned