New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard breaks down Giants GM Joe Schoen's bye week press conference at 2-8 and forecasts Daniel Jones' fate in the team's final seven games and beyond during this live chat with fans at 9:30 p.m. ET on Nov 13, 2024 @Bleav. SUBSCRIBE to the @PLonNFL YouTube page to get the latest Giants updates and news delivered directly to you, and to participate in regular LIVE Q&A chats with Pat. Purchase a Super Chat or Super Sticker to have your comments elevated to the top of the feed and have Pat answer your question FIRST! Watch the full video of this @Bleav podcast on Pat's YouTube Channel. Find Pat also on 'X' (@PLeonardNYDN), Instagram (@PLonNFL) & TikTok (@PLonNFL). Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is brought to you by MyBookie. It’s MyBookie’s 10th year anniversary, and they’re rolling out the red carpet for bettors, including Risk-Free Thursdays and weekly no-sweat bets all season long. Use the promo code 'PATSPICKS' here to get your first deposit of $50 or more matched 100% up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your Football season a winning season with MyBookie! Bet Anything, Anytime, Anywhere. Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is also sponsored by @BoomChaga and @Estate98Coffee. BOOM Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune-boosting antioxidants and heart-healthy compounds. Go to BoomChaga.com and use the code TALKINBALL25 to get a 25% discount on your first Subscribe and Save Order. Estate98 Coffee is a specialty coffee concentrate that's perfect when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes less than 10 seconds to make a delicious Estate 98 iced or hot coffee, it’s great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order.
Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard
The Joe Schoen Episode: Analyzing the Giants GM and his Daniel Jones plans at 2-8
New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard breaks down Giants GM Joe Schoen's bye week press conference at 2-8 and forecasts Daniel Jones' fate in the team's final seven games and beyond during this live chat with fans in Week 11 of the NFL season.
- Duration:
- 2h 12m
- Broadcast on:
- 14 Nov 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
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Welcome to another episode of Talking Ball with Pat Leonard here on the Believe Network and on the PL on NFL YouTube channel. Thanks so much for being here, everybody. I know it's been tough. I know the season's been difficult, and I know at this bi-week, we're talking about a lot of things. We wish we weren't, right? Direction of the Giants, why it hasn't turned around, where they go from here. But of course, it does get interesting as we bounce each other's ideas around and we discuss what Joe Shane said at the bi, how this press conference played out, what it reflects about the operation that Shane and Dabel are running, what it says about potentially John Marra and Steve Tisch, the co-owners of the organization, how we can glean insight into what this means for Daniel Jones and the roster. And then also, I want to use this as a combination of an evaluation of the roster, so the highs, the lows, the positives, the concerns. And then also, definitely in need of event session, I think, the fan base as a whole. And so we welcome all NFL fans here. We'll talk around the league for anybody who is interested in discussing a team like the Jets, a team like the Cowboys, a team like the Washington commanders. We have some big upcoming matchups here in week 11. And I broke down a lot of the exciting and meaningful NFL action in week 10 on my Talking Ball with Pat Leonard episode first down with Benny Fowler that you can find up everywhere podcasts are available, Apple, Spotify, Talking Ball with Pat Leonard Believe Network and also on the YouTube channel. But we are going to start by getting our hands dirty on the Giants here. And it's just a perfect time to do it because Joe Shane talks every every year at the buy. We met him at a press conference on November 12th. And I sit here on November 13th, having processed it, written about it for the New York Daily News as the NFL columnist and Giants beat writer for that national paper. And now sitting here with you, getting to dissect the what's and why's and how's and where the Giants go from here with all of you. So thank you so much to everybody for being here, for continuing to grow this community with me. And for those of you who are here early, I want to reward you by doing our estate 98 trivia giveaway right away. So if you're new to our channel, we do a giveaway every Talking Ball live. And I ask a Giants trivia question. And all you have to do is punch the right answer into the comments section. The first person who gets the answer correct in the comments section, who enters it first, that I see it first in the queue, you will win a free bottle of estate 98 coffee. So I'm going to kick off the chat with our estate 98 trivia Giants question of the day. And the question is this. So the Giants are two and eight at the bye week right now. And this is the second straight season that Brian Dable's Giants are two and eight. So my trivia question to you is when when did the Giants have back-to-back years? When did they last have back-to-back years of only two wins in their first 10 games? You can give me the two back-to-back seasons. That's what I need as your answer. And a little bonus, you know, throw in the name of the coach as well. So the same coach with back-to-back seasons of only two wins in back-to-back years in his first 10 games for the Giants. So which seasons did the Giants do that? I'll give you a hint. It was a little while ago. And that really brings me to telling you guys about our sponsors here. My bookie number one, my bookie is rolling out the red carpet for sports betters here this football season. And I have to pat myself on the back a little bit because you win some, you lose some in the prediction business for sure. And especially when you're playing the odds and you're playing against the spreads and you're trying to make picks based on your informed evaluation covering the NFL since 2016 full-time. And certainly have gotten my fair share wrong. But I think pretty good reason for you guys to stick with me and stick with Pat's picks that before this season, in fact, when the schedule originally came out in May, I predicted the Giants to be two and eight at the by. And so the Giants are in fact two and eight at the by. I actually predicted there are two wins to be against Seattle and Washington. So I was half right. They beat Seattle and Cleveland. But of course, we're swept by the Washington commanders this year. But you got to stick with me this year and stick with my bookie. And we'll continue to bring you that kind of information that will have you ahead of the curve. So this week, look for my top three or four picks against the spread. Those will be Pat's picks. Plus, we do our little giant sprinkles. Now this week, the Giants are off. They have their by week. They're going to rest and recover and try to come back stronger for the final seven games. So we'll drop some NFL wide props in there. We'll sprinkle around the league a little bit and see what we can get going for you in some different exciting and favorable matchups. So look for those picks on my social media. Wherever you can find me, Instagram, TikTok, threads and YouTube PL on NFL. And on my Twitter account or X, I'm P Leonard and Y D N. And so here's the deal they have going at my bookie. If you use the link in my social media profiles and all of those social media profiles, I just told you about, click on the link, make your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000. And if you use the promo code, Pat's picks, you will get a 100% match on that deposit, plus a $10 casino chip. So bet anything anytime anywhere with my bookie, let's keep winning. 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And so that means order your first bag on the subscribe and save option. You get that discount with that code. And then you can either stay subscribed or you can cancel the subscription with no further obligation to you. And last but not least, I brought to you here by estate 98 coffee as I scroll down here and see in the queue, whether anybody got the trivia question correct. So estate 98 coffee is another sponsor of talking ball with Pat Leonard. It is a specialty coffee concentrate perfect for when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes me less than 10 seconds to make a delicious estate 98 iced or hot coffee. It's great as a mixer for espresso martinis. And each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate 98.com backslash talking ball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. All right, let's see if anybody dropped the correct answer in the queue. Looks like we don't have an accurate trivia answer yet. So people still rolling in. So I'll give it a few minutes and I'll ask it again. We will get back to it shortly. Welcome in everybody. We'll start with undefined here. Undefined says, Joe Shane says the team is headed in the right direction. They are ranked number 32. What exactly was he getting at or looking for with that commentary? You know undefined. I think Joe Shane's message to me in regards to exactly what you just asked about. I view this press conference as the general manager owning up to a lot of his mistakes and acknowledging that the team is still far away further away than they would like in his in his view because of mistakes he has made. So he still is referring to and blaming at times what he inherited from Dave Gettleman. But I thought the tone of this press conference was more the general manager acknowledging. I've made some mistakes. I've had some personnel misses and misevaluations. And it was him owning up to some of those things. So then the flip side of that or his he would take that a step further and was saying, but I still believe there are things and pieces and reasons why this is headed in the right direction. So just give me more time and let me get my own quarterback. That was the way I viewed that. Obviously, I don't think Brian Dable came out scott free from this press conference by any stretch of the imagination. There were supportive words of the coach in certain respects, but also definitely felt like Shane greased the skids for being able to save himself and certainly not blame the personnel side for ultimately the reason why the team is losing games. You know, I think I think he took it a step too far by saying it was evidence they're headed in the right direction based on their record in close games. He even went as far as saying that the Giants haven't been getting blown out. That was a little bit alarming for me to hear considering I've been obviously this is I covered this team for a living. And three of their eight losses were to the Minnesota Vikings 28 to 6, the Philadelphia Eagles 28 to 3, and the Cincinnati Bengals 17 seven in a game where the Giants were never going to score enough points to win. And so those were three three of their losses right off the bat there that were, you know, blowouts. And then you also have the Washington commanders, the second loss to the Washington commanders where, you know, the Giants end up scoring a late touchdown to get within five points of Washington, but really it was 27 to 16. It was 24 to 10 Washington in the late third quarter, and then 27 16 with under four minutes to go. And so that was ended up being only a five point loss, but not as close of a game as he's describing. So I felt like that was a little bit disingenuous, but certainly on Shane's side of things, his job is to try to put his best foot forward and make his strongest argument to ownership, as well as to the public and to the fan base of where he's going. So that's how I view that. Deepat says Pat, we know that Joe Shane lied his tail off, especially about the quarterback and injury guarantee, but he really has to lie there. So I will give him a pass on those two lies specifically. You know, I think he seemed to imply that just like table did without saying it, that the quarterback discussion and change on the horizon is on the table. So I don't feel like he totally dodged that. I do think he made it sound like the media's questions were all about Daniel. And it's like, I know you guys all want to ask about Daniel. It's not just Daniel. And it's like, well, you know, the reason the national media is all coming after Daniel is because the giants are moving on from Daniel. And that's what they're hearing about the giants and from the giants. And so, you know, let's not pretend like this conversation hasn't boiled over because of what the giants have been saying or doing and indicating behind the scenes as well. As far as the injury guarantee, you know, I thought personally, now as a reporter, you know, it was important to me when he said it would be a football decision, it was important for me to double back on that and say, do you mean what gives your team the best chance to win? Because in Brian Daybell's press conference the day before on Zoom, Daybell was asked the reporter essentially said, I assume it will be about what gives you guys the best chance to win? Daybell did not answer yes to that question. It was not in the affirmative. And so, me, I was alarmed by that because I know covering the giants that if there's one thing John Marra always says he will never stand for, it is tanking. And it is, and it is putting a product on the field that he knows intentionally isn't furrier. And so, yes, there is the injury guarantee. But this brings up the conversation of, is Drew Locke a better option? Is Tommy DeVito going to be a better option if and when he plays? Because you need the team to believe that you can't have the players believing that you're putting in obviously inferior player on the field, right? So that's something to keep an eye on there. And that's why I thought it was important to follow up and make sure Shane said that, which he did eventually. NYC says we need to figure out how to score touchdowns, a literal NFL GM. Yeah, very, you know, there were some comments in this press conference, I think, including Shane saying we're going to keep looking, we're going to turn over every rock looking for the solutions. This isn't a treasure hunt. There isn't a map with gold at the end of it and X doesn't mark the spot. Like this is NFL general managing. This is running a franchise and a roster. We are not on a treasure hunt. Like, you know, I think that was a scary type of comment, because what it reflects is that they don't know where to look. They're just going to look all over. But you know, listen, and this is just totally objective observation from when they first got here, Joe Shane and Brian Dable. I think one thing that got overlooked very quickly about this regime was that they were first timers. And I think, you know, Joe Shane, certainly he comes in, looks the part, right, dresses well, presents well, Brian Dable was coming off of running an excellent offense in Buffalo with Josh Allen as his quarterback. And then even though it was only nine, seven and one, obviously, and it ended in a blowout loss to Philadelphia, but it was undeniable, you know, exceeding of expectations. Dable wins coach of the year. Martin Gail's defense helps get them there. They have a great win on the road in Minnesota in the wildcard round. And there is evidence of them making lemonade with lemons, right? And so, you know, that deserves to be at that point, lauded, and that were those were excellent signs. But I think one thing that Shane definitely pointed out is that since that point, they've made a lot of key mistakes to get them where they are now. So, yeah, that was, yeah, you don't want to hear those types of statements, because what it reflects is that they don't know how to answer the most obvious, important, and simple all at the same time, questions. All right, looks like we got a super chat in the queue, setting a good example here. Let's see. So, Michael O'Brien checks in with $2 and says, "Hey, hack." Oh, I guess that's directed at me. "Thoughts on talking giants roasting you." I did not hear what the boys at talking giants had to say, but I would imagine, you know, I don't know what they said, so I, you could tell me what they said, and I could respond to it. I'm not going to respond to something that I'm not going to assume or put words in their mouth. I don't know what they said, Michael, but feel free to ask to tell me what they said, and I'll respond to it. Thank you for the two bucks, though. Peter, what's going on? Peter says, "I think not signing Russell Wilson might be the biggest blunder Shane has made right below the Daniel Jones contract." Yeah, you know, Joe Shane actually got really uncomfortable when Russell Wilson's name came up. I think that question and follow-up, credit to Dan Duggan from the athletic, he was the one asking those handful of questions there and staying on that topic, where he was asking about whether Joe Shane felt like he did the best thing he could to assemble the best quarterback room possible for the Giants, right? And bringing up Russell Wilson's name as an option that they weren't able to secure, I thought kind of really hit the right note. And also, Joe Shane just really didn't have a good enough answer for it, because he's well aware, obviously, you know, we don't need to sit here and point it out to him. He knows, even though he's not going to sit up there and admit, yeah, I screwed up on that too, though I guess he could. But, you know, Shane is well aware, watching what Wilson is doing now, watching what Arthur Smith has helped unlock with Russell Wilson when you're able to have an offensive mind that marries to a quarterback like that, and you can get the ball to these receivers. You know, that has to make Joe Shane uncomfortable, because that's a clear avenue towards them having had a competent offense and team this year, right? Because a lot of us focus on, and for good reason, because the Giants were heavily scouting and focused on the draft, and they were looking to trade up. We knew at the time that Drake May was on their radar, we fight out from hard knocks that Jaden Daniels was also on their radar in a big way. And so, you know, that was a part of the search. They obviously could have then drafted a rookie at six. They didn't. They take neighbors. But the part where Russell Wilson visits and ends up, the Giants aren't guaranteeing and playing time, so he goes to Pittsburgh, that's a huge part of their miss in this process as well, as well as the fact that they thought Tyrod Taylor was an option coming back, and he obviously was not. So we'll get into conversation later. I'm sure about Drew Locke and Daniel Jones and that kind of thing, but I agree. He was uncomfortable when that came, when that came up. Michael says, Bobby Skinner said that you steal content and are unreliable. Ooh, that is slander right there. I don't really appreciate that. Steel content. Yeah, no, I don't, that's disturbing. Yeah, that's disturbing. I hope, I hope, I don't know. That's a little bit surprising because I feel like I definitely respect those guys work ethic. You know, the guys over at Talking Giants, I do respect their work ethic. They really work hard. They grind and everybody in this business who put so much time, effort, and resources into and passion into covering teams. I really do respect it 100%. There's a lot of people in this business who have more prominent jobs than let's say those guys do or with traditional media outlets who don't work as hard. So I respect that, but yeah, no, that's kind of nasty. I don't know how to respond to that because the funny thing about the content I produce is I think if anything, what it is, is original. It's my own information analysis and opinions. I think I am direct about what I have to say, but oftentimes, I think I'm usually the person that says something first, like when it comes to whether it's a harsh criticism or putting my neck out there. So as far as not being afraid to take a step where I believe things need to go. For example, my column about why I believed that they should be fired after the Carolina game is just one example of me just going where I feel like the information is taking me and what opinion I feel like at the moment needs to be given to hit the right note and to share with you guys where the organization stands. So yeah, no, I mean, that's obviously upsetting to hear anybody suggest that I would steal content, but I don't even know what that means. I've worked very hard over the course of my career to be to have integrity, do things the right way, and try to make sure that first of all, I'm very, I'm respectful of my colleagues in the business, and then also to be objective. But yeah, no, I mean, that's that's something that I think in my experience, I would actually say that no one in the business has ever accused me of anything like that. And so I think I could safely say that no one in the business still has accused me of any of that. You know, I've never been accused of that. So but like I said, I respect those guys work ethic and, you know, yeah, I don't know, that's it's weird. All right, Antonio says, what up, Pat? Do you expect KVON Thibodeau back next week? Also, would you expect Tommy DeVito to be the backup to Drew Lock as a way to completely shut Jones down for the year? KVON don't know about KVON. He has been on the field on the side, not in a uniform in any way. So, you know, I think that is a clear indication that he's on his way as far as doing that cardio. But they have hedged on what his timeline will look like. They were projecting that after the buy, they were hopeful, but there was nothing like definitive or certain. But I would think if it doesn't happen in the Bucks game, then, you know, you have the Cowboys game. But then with that extra break there after the Cowboys game on Thanksgiving, you know, I would think the latest that he would be back would be the next week, you know. So, let's see. So, their schedule goes. Buccaneers, Cowboys, Saints, right? So, I would say like the Saints would feel like the latest, you know. So, if he needs that extra time, Bucks, Cowboys, then Saints. But I would, you know, based on what they've said, this is the window these next three weeks, you know, it just depends on how his wrist is feeling. But certainly, the amount of cardio he was doing going into the buy left open the option and, you know, kind of crack the door open that it was possible coming off it. All right. Peter with another five bucks. Thank you. Let's see. Shane said earlier in the year that he's happy with quarterback room yesterday. He said he thinks this is a winning roster. Is he delusional or is he in over his head? The quarterback room answer to me and Peter sounded like he knew it wasn't good enough. And he was kind of stammering over defending it. The winning roster comment that I felt like that was more him saying, this is going in the right direction is the way I viewed it. Like not him saying it, it already is there. I think he was saying it's going in that direction. But that's where he got caught up, right? He got asked about, you know, is did you, did you sit there at any point and say, I didn't give the coaches a good enough roster? And he said, no, I don't think so. In other words, he thinks the roster is good enough. And this is one thing that's very strange about the conversation going on right now. Peter, great questions, by the way. One thing that's going on right now, that's a little bit strange is there are the giant version of the truth right now is that, wow, so much is going wrong, but it's nobody's fault, right? Now, you know, mistakes happen, right? Mistakes happen in games, mistakes happen with teams with draft picks, whatever. But we're not talking about a mistake here or there, right? We're not talking about, oh, the teams just below 500, but should be above 500, right? We're talking about a team that has bottomed out is continuing to bottom out is two and eight for the second straight year after 10 games. And that and Joe Shane and Brian Dable and the Giants organization knows this as well as I do, losing to Carolina on top of all of that to go to two and eight into the by is a whole other level of worrisome, dysfunctional, and indicting of their process. You know, like that's, that's really bad. Peter, thank you so much, man. You're killing it. Jim says that was libelous, Pat, investigate that. Yeah, no, if, hey, if if someone's accusing me of stealing content, that is libelous. I've never stolen any in my life. But like I said, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think during these times when like, listen, the entire Giants fan base is super frustrated. And I don't blame you. You know what I mean? Like, I don't blame, I don't blame you at all. Because well, first of all, there's a lot of there's a lot of fan bases right now pulling their hair out. I mean, you look at, you know, the Panthers, the Saints, the Dallas Cowboys, right? The Jaguars, the Raiders, you know, some of these teams, it's like, it's hard to even say you're going in the wrong direction. You're like, we're not going in any direction. Tennessee, Cleveland, the Jets, I mean, there's a lot of bad teams. But think about this, with all of those teams that I just mentioned, and as I'm rattling them off, you're probably saying, wow, yeah, they stink. They stink. Wow, they can't tackle. They have no quarterback. All of those teams are scoring more points than the Giants. And all of those teams would be drafting behind the Giants, except for the Jaguars of the season ended today. That is what is so frustrating. And so jaw-droppingly difficult about kind of stomaching where they are right now. So I guess, Jim, like I can, you know, that you're right, that is libelous. But, you know, I don't, I think where those types of comments come from, from like, you know, Giants fans or people who, you know, feel like they want to or need to defend the team, right? I think that that comes out of frustration about where the team is. Oh, and Antonio, you had asked, do I expect Evito to be the backup to lock as a way to completely shut Jones down? Yeah, so I think knowing how the injury guarantee is set up. So I've clarified this a couple of times, but I know it's, it's, it's like into the weeds of the contract language, right? So it always bears repeating. So Daniel Jones injury guarantee, it doesn't have to be an injury that he suffers in a game. If he suffers an injury in practice or anywhere on the Giants facility, like if he's working out in the weight room and suffers an injury and then that injury prevents him from passing his physical next March, that can trigger, that does trigger the injury guarantee. So because of that, I believe that you're not benching him. This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance, fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds, because progressive offers discounts for pain and full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations. It took a lifetime to find the person you want to marry. Finding the perfect engagement ring is a lot easier. At bluenile.com, you can find or design the ring you've always dreamed of, with help from bluenile's jewelry experts, who are on hand 24/7 to answer questions, and the ease and convenience of shopping online. For a limited time, get $50 off your purchase of $500 or more with code pod at bluenile.com. That's $50 off with code pod at bluenile.com. If you take him out, you're shutting him down. And so that means he's not practicing anymore. That means he's not active. He's the emergency third quarterback and he's not the backup active. So that would leave Drew Lock as the starter and Tommy DeVito as the backup coming out of the buy, you would imagine. But you know what's tricky about that? And obviously, I already alluded to and we discussed that, you know, Joe Shane now admitting we have to go and play the quarterback who gives us the best chance to win. So let's say he puts Drew Lock in, but let's say the players in the locker room don't believe lock is better than Daniel, okay? That is difficult and tricky, okay? Because if players know you're not playing the best player, you're going to lose them. And like I taught to Benny Fowler in my podcast already, he says, you know, he feels like the Giants have already lost the locker room. But here's the other thing is, do you guys agree or disagree with me here? And then we'll do the estate 98 trivia question next. I think let's let's say hypothetically Drew Lock starts to tamp a game. And then let's say the first quarter, the Giants don't score. And in the early second quarter, on the second or third drive of the game for the Giants offense, Drew Lock throws an interception. Isn't the whole stadium going to be chanting for Tommy DeVito at that point? Or are they going to give Drew Lock some time? I'm genuinely asking you guys because for me at two and eight with the season clearly over, and this is just all about next year in a draft pick and whether people are going to keep their jobs or not at this point. So I'm wondering like from my vantage point, you know, having seen the fans chamfer DeVito in week one, when that Vikings game was going in the toilet, I feel like Lock is going to get no rope and no leash at all from the fans if he struggles when he struggles early. But I'd like that to know that from you guys is like, if DeVito is active as the backup, won't fans be chanting for him? The second lock screws up? Or am I wrong? And is that unfair? Antonio also says, have you viewed how have you viewed progress John Michael Schmitz has made? Would you expect them to re-sign Van Rotten to another one year deal after the season? Van Rotten was a last minute signing. They thought they had more than they did, and then they went out and got him late. I would think that they would be drafting a lineman and that a guy like Greg Van Rotten, who wasn't in their original plans until it was like break glass, we have to, you know, I would not consider it. I would not consider that a shoe in re-signing. I'm not saying they wouldn't re-sign him. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying based on, you know, there's other guys on the on the line, they're more invested in who are more valuable. And then you would think they're I mean, they're definitely going to be attacking the draft and the offensive line continually after this. They have to because they've either ignored it or missed on it in last recent years here with this regime. G-men, oh, and John Michael Schmitz, you know, JMS is continuing to build. It can still be better, but obviously, you know, the Giants have shown some good things in the running game, and the past protection has been better overall than last year. But it's still a lot of room for improvement, including from JMS. G-men says, Pat, let's say the Giants don't win another game and finish two and fifteen. What changes do you think will happen to cleaning house fully or just firing table? See, G-men, I believe, I believe that that will mean a house cleaning. That's what I think. And that actually brings me to ask, you know, I asked the question earlier. I think a lot of you were jumping in and maybe some ads were dropping while I was asking the question. But that brings me to my estate 98 trivia question of the day. And this is a trivia question I'm going to ask, and I need you to to go in the comments section when you have the answer. And the first person to answer this question correctly after I ask it in the comments section will win a free bottle of estate 98 coffee. You'll send me your address on Instagram in direct messages in the DMS. And I will have a bottle of estate 98 sent to you. All right. Here is the estate 98 Giants trivia question of the night here on Talking Ball Live with Pat Leonard on the Believe Network and on PL on NFL, the YouTube channel. Subscribe and hit those likes while we are live right now. Please hit those like buttons while we are live. That engagement really helps. All right. The Giants, under Brian Dable this season, are now two and eight in back-to-back years through their first 10 games. It's been a while since the Giants only won two of their first 10 games in back-to-back seasons. Please tell me the last time the Giants had only two wins in their first 10 games in back-to-back seasons. Give me the two seasons, so the years, and the name of the coach for those two teams. So the last two years that the Giants had back-to-back seasons of only two wins in their first 10 games. Give me the two seasons, so the years, and the coach's name. That is what we're going with. But yeah, G-Man, I think that means a house cleaning if they have that finish. Dave Z, what's up? He says Cheers, Pat, always a pleasure to see you. Don't forget to hit that like button everybody and buy some Boom Chaga. Thanks for saying that, Dave. So Pat, how do you feel about Sam Donald coming back to New York as a giant next year? Well, I couldn't speak for Sam at this moment, but I would think that this market is where he started and where he had some ups and downs. He's obviously thrived by moving on, exposing himself to some new types of coaching, some better schemes, and has found an equilibrium to his football career into his game. I would not think he would want to step back into the Lions then here into the Big Apple and be exposed to the comparisons of his Giants time, to his Jets time, and constant questions about being back in New York and the Jets and handling that. And if it doesn't go as well with the Giants, you know, oh, you were a bust on two different New York teams. You know, that to me doesn't feel like the ideal road for a quarterback like Sam. Now, obviously, he's, you know, a matured, now, you know, veteran player. And so money and opportunity and the ability to continue your NFL career and win games, of course, is what's going to matter most. But, you know, Donald, I would think would be looking for an opportunity that doesn't drag him back into a market where there's a lot of baggage would be my guess. But, you know, that's, that's just my guess based on knowing how things went for him here and how people think of the New York media and market once they get out of it and thrive somewhere else. Dave Z says at least until they can move heaven and earth for arch manning. Yeah, right? Exactly. Antonio says, saw that Tyree Phillips is fully recovered from his quad injury. Did the Giants have any interest? Haven't heard anything percolate there yet. They did just resign. Josh Miles, the tackle to the practice squad is a guy who showed some good football in the preseason. I mean, I don't know how it would look if he was just thrown out there into a regular season game tomorrow. But Josh Miles did put some good football on tape in the preseason. So with him coming back into the mix, they've added some other guys recently along the offensive line, including on the interior to their practice squad. So I don't know if Tyree would be brought right back into into this. In fact, it appears like Jermaine Aluminor on the left and Evan Neal on the right is going to be how they're going to continue. I mean, that's what it looks like for sure. That was kind of an interesting thing, you know, getting into Joe Shane's comments a little bit. One thing I wanted to note was he was asked about why they went into this with Josh Azudu as the backup again. And, you know, whether he thought they could have done a better job there. And he made a reference to the fact that, well, we didn't know Evan wasn't going to be ready. And then he said, plus Jermaine had the flexibility to go over to the left. So almost essentially saying, well, it wasn't like Josh was definitely the backup and this and that. But then so if if Evan was healthy, when Andrew Thomas went down, why did you put Josh Azudu in as the starting left tackle there and leave Jermaine on the right? If you really had that flexibility and Evan was healthy, why didn't you just move Jermaine Aluminor over to the left against Philly and put Evan Neal in there? You know, those are the type of answers that they start to sound okay on the front end, but on the back end, it makes you scratch your head and raise your eyebrow and say that doesn't really make any sense. NYC says, I appreciate you dropping by the spaces and go Irish. Go Irish is right. And yeah, no, I really enjoyed that jumping into your guy's Twitter space the other day after the press conference on my ride home from East Rutherford and giving you guys kind of my live rapid reaction to Shane's words and comments. Cross says, Pat, Pat, LFG appreciate you cross. Thanks for being here. Obed, what's going on. Kmax has Coughlin would not be pleased because I was a few minutes late. That is funny. Good call. All right, Matt says Shane once credit for his 2024 draft class, but it's filled with positions he already told us he feels are the lowest form, lowest from a positional value standpoint. Also, you know, still the jury's out on the rookie class, right? Like Tyrone Tracy Jr. looks like he is going to end up being a good value pick for sure, right? Like based on the production you already got, based on the fact that you drafted him in the fifth round, the fact that he could just be stretching the service at the position. Like that's a good pick. I mean, you have to call that a good pick, right? Like Tracy's a good pick. But outside of that, you know, like neighbors, of course, is a talent got, you know, number six overall pick. But Tyler Neubin has really struggled, in my opinion. And, you know, I like a lot about him, but we need to see more. Drew Phillips has been up and down. Okay. Theo Johnson, up and down, I think really has struggled, although you've seen him make a couple plays lately. But, you know, the Giants rookie class, even the way that Shane talks about it, is not the way he presents it. In fact, it's like, on the one hand, he says, well, look at how well Neubin's playing. And then somebody asked about the Aunty Banks quitting on the CD Landplay. And Shane's like, yeah, well, you know, that play was tough because the safety took a wrong angle. The safety was Tyler Neubin on that play, right? So, you know, it's, you can't just selectively choose what plays count and don't in your evaluation of a team. Matt says, hitting on running back nickel and safety is not the same as hitting on tackles and the ends. Yeah. Also, like I said, I would only call one of those three clear hits so far. Jim says, Pat, I listened to Dable's press conference at every reporter present called him Brian or Dave's. Are the writers too close to him to be objective? Are they that worried about access? Well, I call every coach by their first name. So, you know, Joe Judge was Joe. Pat Sharma was Pat. Ben McAdoo was Ben. And Brian Dable is Brian. So what I won't do is call him by a nickname, right? I think calling him Dave's, even though he asks to be called Dave's, that's too familiar. You know, so sometimes I call players by their nicknames like Slaton is Slag because like no one calls him Darius or stuff like that. But yeah, no, I don't go. The nickname is too far for me. But no, I mean, the first name is, like you're not going to call him coach because he's not your coach and we're not, you know, kids talking to a grown up, right? So calling the coach coach feels strange and like it doesn't fit either. So to me, the first name him calling me Pat, me calling him Brian or Joe Shane Joe, you know, like to me, that's just the right way to handle it like person to person. Jim says, as this team continues to free fall, does that make your job as a reporter harder or easier? How will you approach the rest of the season any differently? Harder from a standpoint of, you know, sometimes you get feedback from people say like, Pat, man, this is a lot of critical conversation and commentary and negative discussion. And you know, I think those of those of you and people in the league who understand how the league works and what the realities are, they know that that's not like too much negative. It's just discussing a harsh reality. And that's really the autopsy that goes on when organizations are struggling and try to get better. But it does become difficult because you do want to tell good stories. You want to tell stories people want to read and hear whether it's in the newspaper with the New York Daily News or here on the podcast. And so, you know, you want the team that you're covering to have success, the players to have success, so you can dig into the inspirational parts of their stories and also talk about the X's and those in an exciting and positive and way and, you know, discussing why the development and how the development is happening for the players and the team. So that all makes it easier. And then, you know, losing, obviously, we've seen in years past, not just with the Giants as teams around the league, you know, sometimes losing gets bad enough where the locker room or the team gets so dysfunctional that the stories get better. In other words, like last year, for example, my ex-pose and what was happening behind the scenes with the coaching staff and what Brian Dable and kind of the mismanagement and dysfunction and Joe Shane being on the headsets listening to Brian Dable and the dynamic going on there, you know, sometimes dysfunction yields the most intriguing and salacious stories. But it also can make reporting to the building, like for work, like for example, when the bi-week is over and I'm going there back there every day for practices, if the team just keeps losing, right? Like that really wears on the team, on the players, on everybody who works for the organization, the public relations staff, security, training staff, coaches, players, like whoever it is, you know, it's just like I went to the University of Notre Dame. And, you know, when the team won on a Saturday, the next week on campus was phenomenal. And when the team lost on Saturday, the next week was everybody was a little bit down or even a lot of bit down, depending on who you lost to. Football season where football is king and when people are heavily invested in that team, you know, it dictates what work feels like, you know. So everybody at the Giants, you know, it can be a tense, difficult place, an environment to show up to work at times when they're losing. It can be a miserable place to show up to work. And again, I'm talking about the Giants right now, but like, you know, if the Eagles go on a huge losing streak, for example, or the Cowboys or whoever, you know, things tighten up, they stop letting you do certain things as the media, maybe they take things away. I mean, even at the beginning of this year, if you notice, there's no more videos of like the early parts of practice other than the stretch period, because the Giants just eliminated it. We can't do it anymore. So why did that happen? I don't know. But like, things like that tend to happen when the team's losing and they're trying to find ways to protect themselves or give themselves a competitive advantage or whatever. Like, last week, they were practicing with their offensive line out of sight of us when we were out there on the field behind the building, right? We obviously knew why they were putting up a knee on it, right? Tackle and moving Jermaine Illuminaure over to the left. By the way, if you followed how I was reporting on that, we can't say exactly directly what we're seeing on the field. But I did mention that as an option for how they could pivot. And that was the exact direction that they went in there. So stick with me, guys, to keep you up to date. All right. Let's see. Going down into the queue here to see if anybody had a correct answer to that. Let's see. Trivia question. All right. Looks like somebody got the right answer here. I don't think anybody dropped it in the queue prior to it. Let me see. All right. So the correct answer, the last two years back-to-back that the Giants only won two games in their first, in their first 10, in back-to-back seasons. It was 1973 and 1974. They went 2, 7, and 1 in 1973 to start the season under Alex Webster, and then they went 2 and 8 in their first 10 in 1974 under Bill Arnesbarger. And so it looks to me, like Barry has won our estate 98 Giants trivia competition here on talking about live with Pat Leonard here on November 13th. Barry, congratulations. Well done. I don't think I missed anybody else putting that in the queue. If I find that somebody else entered that answer earlier as well, I'll give you credit, but I don't believe so. So Barry, well done. Barry, my handle on Instagram is PL on NFL. So if you go there now or later tonight or tomorrow morning, go to my Instagram account, go direct message me and send me your address or a PO box wherever you want it mailed, and I will have a free bottle of estate 98 coffee mailed directly to you so you can try that product. The state 98 being one of our sponsors and grateful to you for participating in that and getting that right. But guys, just want to make sure that this doesn't get lost here. Brian Dable is the first Giants coach to win two games in his first 10 in back-to-back years since 1973-74. And that was two different coaches, right? So 73-74, you guys do the math there. That is the depth to which the Giants have fallen. And I'm going to use this as an opportunity to tell you once again about my sponsors here on Talking Ball Live with Pat Leonard on the Believe Network. Remember, sponsored by my bookie, use the promo code PATSPIX and get a 100% match on your first deposit or $50 or more, all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip, underdogs, bet against the spread. My PATS picks every week, my Giants sprinkle, bet anything, anytime, anywhere with my bookie. And honestly, the best way to support this channel and this podcast right now is to open an account with my bookie, to buy a bag of boom chaga and try it out and to buy a bottle of estate 98 coffee. Supporting my sponsors, supporting our sponsors is the best way to help keep this growing, as well as the super chats. And like I said before, please hit those like buttons while we are live. 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And brought to you, of course, by estate 98 coffee, Barry landing the free bottle of estate 98, which is a specialty coffee concentrate. That's perfect when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. Takes me less than 10 seconds to make a delicious estate 98 iced or hot coffee. It's great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkingball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. And as you guys see, if you enter a super chat or super sticker into the chat, I will answer your comment or address it first. So the super chats get your commenter question answered immediately. Tolu checks in with $5 here. Thank you, Tolu. He says Shane can be cutthroat in business, like joy and love, Darius Slaton, Saquam Barkley. How has this impacted his reputation in the locker room and in the NFL? It seems to have a vindictive streak. Definitely. The Joe Shane has made some enemies with how he has handled some of these situations. There's just no doubt about it. I've said this before. I think everybody should go and watch if they haven't seen it already. Saquam Barkley's interview on the Pivot podcast in the last couple of weeks, he really kind of uncorked some very, I would say, reasoned and calm, but harsh criticism of Shane and of the Giants and of their handling of that situation. This is why a guy like Nick McCloud matters here. Like, obviously Nick McCloud was in a supporting starting role for the Giants as a starting special teamer and also defensive starter, of course, in part because of injuries and things like that. That said, cutting a guy just because you're trying to make him take a pay cut and essentially telling him it's coming essentially no matter what. And players really liking that player, feeling like Nick McCloud makes the team better and then watching him being cut for what looks like vindictive reasons, that doesn't go over well in a locker room and with the team. Players don't appreciate that stuff and players and coaches know that the Giants are worse off with Nick not being on the team. So, and you even heard Joe Shane when I asked about Nick McCloud, he compared him to Boogie Basham and Benton Whitley as far as essentially the same caliber of player. And so it's like he can't help himself. He still has to take a dig at the player on his way out, even though the question is obviously like, I'm not sitting here saying, why didn't you sign Nick McCloud to a five year $20 million contract? I'm just asking you why you treated him the way you treated him, right? I told the story about Nick Gates with the Giants organization, essentially telling him if he didn't take a pay cut, they were going to cut him. And then he thought he was cut and the players were hugging him in the locker room and there were tears in his eyes. And then he ends up sticking it out before leaving. But just another example, throw him on that list of guys who feel like they were handled improperly or harshly. James Bradbury, you could throw on there as well. A lot of names that you could put on that list. It's almost like some people stay friends with their exes and they're able to kind of be amicable. And some people don't break up well. Joe Shane does not break up well. Will says, "I interpreted Shane's performance yesterday as a guy who was in over his head. He sounded rattled and overwhelmed. Do you have faith that he is equipped to evaluate and draft our next franchise quarterback?" I think that's the question. I think that's a great question. Will, I do agree with your interpretation of how he looked and sounded. Frankly, I think there were scenes and hard knocks that his press comments reminded me of where it was like the more he was talking, the more I was thinking, they hired him after interviewing him for four or five or six hours. Like this sounds like somebody who has some ideas but is not ready to be the leader of an organization. That's how that was what I hear in those comments. And in his nervousness, it's almost like the awareness of how bad it is but also being defensive at the same time. But this was definitely seemed to me like Joe Shane had taken his medicine and understood it was bad and is bad and that he's under the gun. I think the way I interpreted it was he's under pressure here. I know he said, "Yes, I will be back for next year's draft and kind of declare that himself." That does not mean he will be. It means he is putting out there that he's confident he will be but that does not guarantee that he will be. I think that the results of the next seven weeks and of how this team performs and if they can show progress in a lot more ways, especially from a competitive and scoring standpoint, not to mention you have whether it's lack of effort on the field, whether it's text or Lawrence, screaming at guys on the sidelines, whether it's Lawrence seemingly being taken out for five plays for some reason coming out of halftime in Germany. There's a lot of questions that need to be asked about how this operation is either coming apart or how it's being run. Jacob says, "Pat, long time no see buddy. Few questions to start us off. Any idea how Dion Sanders feels about Giants rumors are that Shador might be an Eli situation?" No, I mean, I think, no, I don't, those are nothing but rumors at this point. We're a long way away from that. I do think that Shador is a player that we need to continue to study here from a standpoint of this is not a strong quarterback class compared to last years. Last year was the year to get one compared to this year, but he's one of those guys right at the top of the list. The Giants obviously have to do a lot of work on not just the player and the kid, but also the father, the coach, the personality, the brand, the exposure they would have there. The fact that Dion, for lack of a better person to compare him to, I almost feel like if your son was on his team, he'd be like Jerry Jones, whether he was your head coach or whether he was his father coaching somewhere else. I feel like he'd be speaking a lot on his son and his son's performance and on the Giants organization. That feels to me like something the Giants would not be very interested in. Let's see. Does the evolution of the 2024 rookie class save Joe and Dabel's jobs? I don't know. I mean, I think the fact that there are guys flourishing, who like Bo Nix, who they passed on, is doing well. That doesn't look good. We'll see about JJ McCarthy and Michael Pennix Jr. Obviously, McCarthy's hurt, Pennix hasn't played. And then the guys that they didn't get to, Daniel's and May, Daniel's thriving. May looks encouraging, Caleb Williams struggling. But no, I don't think all that matters to Joe and Brian is that they didn't get a quarterback and so they're still looking for one. Let's see. Peter says, Pat, thanks for joining our space yesterday. Great stuff. Don't be a stranger. Thank you, Peter. Jacob says, smack that like and sub button for the best reporter on YouTube. Thank you, Jacob. Really appreciate that. Let's see. Intel says, Joe Shane needs to get his mind right. Let's see. Oh, Steve dropped in Bill Arnesbarger from 74 to 76 there. Hey, Steve, I just saw your answer here now in the queue. Steve, feel free also to send me your address on Instagram. My Instagram is PL on NFL. So Steve Key, send me that direct message with your address, guessing Bill Arnesbarger. 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Shipping is free both ways, too. Go to warbyparker.com/covered to try five pairs of frames at home for free, warbyparker.com/covered. Obviously, it was 73 to 74, but you were close enough. That was what we were looking for. So, sorry, I'm just seeing that now, Steve, but yes, please drop that in, drop your address in my Instagram DMs, and I will have a state 98 bottle sent to Barry and Steve for getting those correct. Nice job. Cesar says, "Hey, Pat, I don't understand how they spent 5 million on getting Drew Locke when they had the chance to get Russell Wilson." Cesar, the best of my understanding is that Russell Wilson was looking for a team that was going to tell him that he was going to play, because he had the ability to sign for the minimum, because Denver is still paying him all those millions of dollars. So, Russell was going in and saying, "You know, I'm giving you a ton of financial flexibility here, plus a high-level talent who, yeah, okay, I'm older this than that, but I'm better than what you got." So, if I come here, I want to know that I'm definitely going to play, and the Giants couldn't give him that guarantee, which is why he moved on. You know, Drew Locke was looking for an opportunity to play for sure, and an opportunity to compete, but the competition in training camp really wasn't much of one of anything. Hook says, "Should have given Russ a chance and had a quarterback competition, at least we would know who won the job without being given the job." Really well said Hooks. If Russell, obviously, I think part of the reason Shane in the Giants and Dabel certainly knows, I mean, Dabel was talking about the explosives that Russell Wilson has been making when he was asked about him going back to the week they were playing the Steelers, and that sounded like an allusion to Dabel saying, "Yeah, it would have been nice to have him, right?" Because obviously, Dabel was thrown Daniel under the bus and would have loved to have had a different quarterback here this season. So, you know, I think that Shane knew in those answers about the quarterback situation and being asked about Russell specifically, he looked uncomfortable because he knows. He knows he would have been better off if they signed him, if they brought him here. Jim says, "If the Giants fired Dabel post-season, what would you think of Steve Spagnolo as head coach? Would he be interested in leaving probably another Super Bowl winning team?" I have talked to him at the Super Bowl last year, and then obviously interviews he continues to do. I mean, he does want to be a head coach again. I think he's in the perfect spot, right? You could just ride that out for as long as you can with Mahomes and Andy Reid and Spaggs there. I mean, he's going to get in the Hall of Fame. Spaggs is going to be in the Hall of Fame already. So, he doesn't have to further that with head coaching accomplishments. But, you know, I'd love to see him get that chance if he wants it and he goes for it. So, you know, what do I think of him being the Giants head coach? I don't know. I think, you know, great person, great representative of a franchise, players like him. You know, he was handed a really difficult hand when he took over as interim when Mackadou and Jerry Reese were fired there. So, unfair to base it on what he would be able to do on that. And then, you know, going back to St. Louis and all that was a long time ago. That's tough. I mean, you certainly would have a great defensive mind from a game situation and game management standpoint. You know, to me, I would really want to drill down in an interview there. But certainly would love to make him a candidate in that search and go from there. You know, he deserves an interview. H5000 says, "Net, the 2020, '22, '23, '24, Shane's draft has been at best a C minus. That's totally unacceptable. If you're a GM, you must be savvy judge of talent in the draft. I couldn't agree more. Caesar says they really only would have spent one or two million and had someone on Russell Wilson and someone who gives them a chance to win games instead of Daniel and use that money for other holes on the roster. 100% Caesar, no doubt. Missal occasion there. Just like I've said before, I like Brian Burns. He's a really good player. I'm glad he's here. I'm glad I've gotten to know him. I really like him a lot. But the Giants could have used that second round pick on a corner and then used, you know, half of the 28 million they gave him on an edge rusher and then still had money left over to sign Saequan and another offensive lineman reserve or another weapon or something like that. I mean, that was a desperate move. And why it says Wilson did not want to sign with us. Yeah, well, because they wouldn't give him a guarantee that he would play. Tony says, Pat, please get Joe Shane and Brian Dable fired at least get one man. Well, yeah, so Tony, obviously you feel like there should be change. I feel like there should be change too. But, you know, I don't want anybody fired. It's more like I believe that the situation and I feel like I feel like I know the situation is is horrendously bad and to the point of no return and only going to get worse. And I feel like I've you know, diagnosed that from the beginning. And so at this point, you know, it's less about, it's less about me saying, oh, like I, it's less about me. So it's not me saying I want somebody fired. It's me saying, I believe that these guys are not fit to run the team anymore because of this evidence, right? So, you know, that's unfortunately, I have a lot of practice with watching a lot of bad football. And I know what it looks like. And I know what bad management looks like. Oh, let's see, right, did not want to back up DJ Ross. Yeah, Peter Andazo says, Joe Shane is an accountant with a GM title. Tony says, I will buy a year subscription of boom, Chaga, if you get them fired. Wow, what a promise, Tony. Holy cow. Well, I'm not getting them trying to get them fired. Like I said, Tony, but we will hold you to it on talking ball live that if there is a wholesale change at the end of this season of a giant's regime, Tony will be buying a year long supply, subscribe for a year to boom, Chaga. Let's see what's up. What's up? Michael says that he respects me. I appreciate that, Michael. NYC says vent session content. Joe Shane keeps saying it takes time. What takes time? What four to five year plan looks like this years, two and three, very obviously dumb and frustrating. Yeah, no, NYC, I think to me, it's kind of like the way I look at it is. Joe is very active in crafting narratives and trying to find stats or trends to put his best foot forward in those types of settings. And I feel like the fact that he was only able to come up with the things he did shows you how bad it is, right? It was really grasping at straws to be able to provide evidence that this is headed in the right direction. And I think what you just pointed out is a very good point, which is that it's like, you know, don't, don't don't tell us it's one thing when we know it's another. And, you know, you as NYC, as you're saying, you can hear that when he's saying we're two and eight, but it takes time and we're close, it's almost insulting your intelligence to be told that that means that this is headed in the right direction. Right. Joey Green says, how can we help Dable 15 points per game this year and how can we keep Dable 15 points per game this year and last year, even his last year in Buffalo, the offense was not as good with Josh Allen. Yeah, I think, like I said, worst, worst offense in the league. All those teams I just, all those teams I just told you about, you know, the Titans, the Raiders, the Jets, the Jaguars, you know, all these teams that are horrendous, the Saints, the Panthers, they're all averaging more points per game than the Giants. It really is alarming. All right. Amir says, if we put DeVito or lock in, watch the Giants win two more games and screw up their draft position. Hooks says all the slander we were talking about earlier was a wild statement about you, Pat, you're actually at the games and see everything firsthand. You have more insight than most of the other pods, much respect to your reporting. Thank you, Hooks. And really, I've put a lot of years, I mean, a lot of years into, into this and, you know, I'm trying to, I'm continuing to work to get to the point of, you know, the true veterans and the OGs of this business, like they have what's called institutional knowledge. And what that means is, like Gary Myers, my mentor at the Daily News, you know, if you just struck up a conversation with him about the Giants right now, he could make reference to teams from the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s, like, like that, you know, anecdote about this player, that team, that coach, this locker room. And so, you can provide for a fan base, you know, a full context of a team and a league and a sport that you're covering, you know, and really get to the, really get to the bottom of it all. But that's why that's one thing that I think I continue to kind of build and bring. Let's see. Amir says, "Could have kept Tyrod Taylor, Barkley, and Big Cat / Dalvin for the Jones contract. Oh boy, hurts to read all that out loud, doesn't it?" "A2, what's going on?" He says, "How they hanging? I might be a little buzzed right now. Good for you, A2. I wish I was." Let's see. Giant topic, what's going on? I know I'm catching up to this queue here, but you guys have really got it going tonight. This has been going well, so appreciate all of you. Let's see here. Let me get back into the queue. Lost my spot. All right. Top of what's going on. Luciano says, "Someone in the press asked a question about how tough it is for rookie quarterback to go into struggling teams and used the 2025 Giants as an example." Shane responded that with Stroud and Daniel's example. Yes, exactly. He essentially was acknowledging that that's the plan. That the plan is, "Hey, look at what we have and it's going to look way better once we go get our rookie quarterback next year and plug them in." He and the Giants have been greasing the skids for that. That is what they're going for now is, "Hey, listen, it'll look better when we get our new quarterback in next year, just wait." The fact that he went there, I think that's a really good point by you is very telling. Daniel Hurst checks in with the $10 Super Chat. Thank you so much, Daniel. He says, "I'm late to this. Do you support benching Daniel Jones for Drew Lock?" Daniel, I think that if I'm not privy to watching all of their practices, the full practices, I see the first 15 minutes and then the media leaves and then they ramp up practice into the full team periods. From what I've seen of Drew Lock, from training camp, the times he's played in the games, whether it's preseason, regular season, from what I've seen, he was never able to make it a competition with Daniel. He was never able to push it to a place where it made you think, "Well, the Giants have a decision to make," or it'll be really easy for them to make the change when it comes. He never pushed it to that in my view. What I'm curious about and what I think Dabel and Shane have to be very careful about here is, do I think that with the injury guarantee and also the idea that losing helps you get a good draft pick in the long run, those are reasons why benching Daniel Jones is the right move, especially coming off of some of those key mistakes in the Carolina game. It was like, "Here we go again type situation," but I guess what I'm saying, Daniel, is the caveat is, how do the players and team feel about what that would do to them? In other words, as frustrating as it is for Wandell Robinson when he's open on the flea flicker and Daniel doesn't throw it, if you asked Wandell Robinson right now, who's better for your offense? Drew Locker Daniel Jones. Who would he say? I think as the head coach of the Giants and as the general manager of the Giants, you need to know the answer to that question because last year, the answer would have been without no uncertain terms from some of these guys would have been Tyrod Taylor. The answer would have been Tyrod gives us a better chance to put Tyrod in, if you really asked them and gave them truth serum. I don't know that the answer is definitely, "Oh, Drew's better." I don't know that. I think that that's what Shane and Dave will have to be careful of because if they go two and 15 or three and 14 or even four and 13, to me, that's a house cleaning. They have to find a way here. Let's say arguments take Daniel that, listen, it's over, just bench Daniel move on. That's probably where it's heading. Let's say that's what's happening. Let's say they're benching Daniel for good and shutting him down. If it doesn't look any better with Drew in and then the fans are calling for Tommy immediately and it stays bad or it gets worse, then in my opinion, everyone's out of a job. So, Dave will say after the Eagles game, when he bench Daniel in the game, he puts him back in the next week. What did he say? The reason was, he said, "Well, he still gives us the best chance." So, they're in a really tough spot there, but to me, I guess at this point, after losing the Carolina and with some of the misses that Daniel had, I would think that where they go from here after already having bench Daniel during one of the games, where they go from here is probably shutting him down and benching him for good. All right, let's see. Luciano, by the way, really perceptive on the Stroud Daniel's thing. And Daniel, thank you so much for the super chat. I really appreciate that. Setting a good example, as always. Grondino says, "Joe Shane will be a scout for the Panthers by this time next year." Al Hirsch says, "What's good, Pat?" Hirsch, "What's going on?" Gary says, "Hey, Pat." Joe's press conference wasn't believable or impressive. You all had him tapped and dancing up there. Good job. Thank you, Gary. Hirsch says, "Shane is the best tapped answer since Gregory Hines." Diggy says, "Is DeVito good enough to start, Pat?" I personally think that DeVito, while a good story, is that's what he is. A really fun, good story, but not a guy that the Giants are eager to put on the field to help them win a football game is how I would put it. But listen, I wish Tommy success if and when he goes in, for sure. I like Tommy. But no, I think he was close to getting cut last year's training camp before he ended up staying on the roster and then all that happened. That's kind of the level he's at. Let's see. Derek says, "Would the Giants predicted to win 27 games or four?" I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, Derek. NYOG thinks the fans want DeVito now, forget about when Lock first screws up. Derek says, "Giants were never predicted to win many games. We haven't under achieved. We have the record we were supposed to have." Oh, I don't think that at all. I think a lot of people predicted them to win seven, eight, nine games, Derek, for sure. I predicted them to win four, but I think there were a lot of people who thought they were going to be a 500 or around their team with the arrow clearly pointing up. They were definitely not predicted far and wide universally to be horrendous as I predicted them to be though, for sure. I would disagree with that based on the predictions I saw come in. Let's see. Hey, Franklin, what's going on? This team would be four and six or five and five if Daniel Jones was average, he says. Definitely missed opportunities from Daniel that have crossed the team. There's no doubt about it. I think he is one of many people who have crossed them, but he is definitely one of them. Luciano, thank you. What's the meaning of football decision, long-term or W? Yeah. The football decision, that's why I pressed Joe Shane on. Are you saying what gives your team the best chance to win, which he didn't really seem to want to say, but eventually he acknowledged that yes, that's what we're here to do to try to win, so it's going to be what helps our team best win. Eventually, he committed to that, but I thought he was trying to keep it general to basically say, well, included in football is the contract element and all that, but I think it's unavoidable for them to, they have to do what gives them the best chance to win on the field or else they're tanking and they're undercutting the rest of the players on the roster. Chris says, "I am afraid we change quarterbacks. We will win games and cost us quarterbacks in the draft." Chris, I personally don't think they will win games, even if they change their quarterbacks, so I think you'll be safe there, but I hear your reservation and your concern there. That is definitely something that could happen. But this is the tug of war and I talked about this weeks ago and even going into the season forecasting if this might happen, the delicate balance between trying to get to next year in a favorable draft position, but also you can't let the bottom fall out on your record and team and your management of the season or else you're not going to get there because you're going to get fired. You want to get that high draft pick at this point if you're the Giants and you don't want to screw that up, but if you finish 2 and 15, how could you be the general manager and coach sitting here drafting that quarterback that would be insane? Derek says, "Davito is not good, Locke isn't the future, and neither is Davido." T. Patrick says, "Schmitz is a bust, 25-year-old rookie fully matured two consecutive seasons of sub-55 PFF, lowest starting center grade in the NFL." There you go. Mel's, "What's going on? Good to see you." Hirsch says, "We know the Giants will be drafting a quarterback early in the draft. The question is whether it will be Shane and Dabel making that quarterback pick." At this point, my only question is whether Shane stays. I personally think Dabel is not going to be the coach next year already unless something completely drastic turns around. I'm not reporting that. That's just what I believe. But I do think Shane is now in hot water. Derek wants the Giants to just cut Daniel Jones outright, and he believes another team would pick him up. Greg says, "When will the Giants announce Jones has finally been vented?" I personally, based on how they operate, it wouldn't surprise me if one of the insiders nationally reports it on Sunday morning before these games during their bi-week, but it's possible we hear about it next week from the Giants directly, too. Let's see. Chris says, "To me, the general manager and coach should be fired no matter how they finish." Chris, I do believe, and I hear, and I see a lot of the fans saying, "It's almost, John Mara, when he said, 'Basically, I'm trying to be more patient than I've been.' Mara was being honest about he recognizes it now, but you've blown people out the door way too quickly and broken promises about how long they would have to build your roster and team, and he's trying to be more patient with these guys, but also, it's like a fatigue of not just all the losing, but it's a fatigue with constantly turning over who's running your team and what the operation looks like. I think some of the fans, and I understand this, some of the fans have a fatigue about, "Well, we keep changing things and it's not working, so why don't we just try sticking with it and seeing if that works?" I would resist that from a standpoint of, "I feel like if the process isn't good enough, the process isn't good enough," and forget that it's Joe Shane and Brian Daybell. You could take their names out of it. It could be anybody sitting up there. If it was Howie Roseman and Nick Siriani running the Giants or whatever, or John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan running the Giants, and they were running the team like this for years back-to-back, it would be the same kind of conversation. In fact, those guys, at least, that I mentioned would have some clout and some accomplishments in their past where you could rationalize. Well, we've seen it work before at a high level, so we'll stick with it. This group doesn't have that. Let's see. Derek says, "If any player starts playing harder now, they were sabotaging Daniel Jones." Yeah, I don't think that was happening. Chris, thank you for another Super Chat. I really appreciate you. Chris says, "To me, three years is long enough to see if a team is going in the right direction and it is not." I agree, especially in the modern NFL. One in two years in some of these places, like Arizona, the Giants, like two years is really not a lot and doesn't feel like enough. It can only be validated to me. Last year, the way that Dable was running the team and malfunctioning and the dysfunction and the finger pointing and essentially coaches all over the roster just trying to get out of the building because they didn't want to work here anymore because it was so toxic and the general manager listening on the headsets, those kind of things can rationalize in my opinion and after two years firing. Certainly, the Joe Judge press conference and everything that happened at the end of that season, even though I still thought he should have been given a third year, tip the scales in the end or whatever. I agree, like three years in the NFL is a lifetime when it comes to expectations and what you see from teams turning themselves around or not. And YOG says, "Is there an available general manager that has won something versus being the first opportunity for some new GM?" Let's see. Like general managers out there and available. You know, we should probably do an episode coming up on exactly this. It's probably time for me to dig into the market of who's kind of who's hot, who's available from these different stops. And, you know, if you have a general manager who's a first-timer, but who is, you know, really savvy on the personnel side exactly, you know, it doesn't have to be the baseball GM setup that Shane has now with the Giants that Howie Roseman has with the Eagles where it's like the general manager, you know, touches every single part of the operation and is on the field like he's a coach and all those things. Like it could be if it's a first-time guy, it could be, and it doesn't mean it's the wrong way to be. It could be a situation where it's, you know, that younger, up-and-coming, like personnel savvy general manager, and then the really established head coach who ends up being like the figurehead and the guy running the show. But that's what's really interesting about the Joe Shane situation. And I mentioned this in my column for the New York Daily News today here on November 13th. But one interesting part about Shane, I'm not sure people are aware of when they ask about like you guys have asked about today, Dable and Shane, who will stay, who will go if Dable gets fired, could Shane she'll stay. To me, it's very hard to make the argument that you could separate the two because like Joe Shane watches film with Dable and the rest of the team, like the players and the staff. Like he watches the film after the games, you know, in the beginning of the next week. He's been in the locker room on multiple occasions. He goes in there, talks to players. He runs the draft. Like he re-signed Daniel Jones. Obviously he helps make game day decisions. He's in the middle of the practice field during practices. Like this is somebody who is involved in some ways that are, you don't see other GMs involved at a really in at a really like deep detailed level. And so it's really impossible to say, hey, like Brian Dable screwing up here, but Joe Shane isn't because he's so involved in everything happening with the team. Chris says my only question if they fire the coach is how good a job this is if it becomes available. Yeah, I mean, that goes to the question of ownership, and you need to quarterback. I mean, having a high draft pick and it being the New York Giants, you know, they always will have an attraction to it. And as dysfunctional as the Giants have been lately in recent years and constant losing, they still carry much more respect than the Jets do from a standpoint of people saying, Oh, you don't want to go there. But there are warning signs for the Giants for sure from people on the outside looking in from, you know, whether it's the ownership and their involvement in that and that conversation or the presence of very influential figures. This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance, fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds because progressive offers discounts for pain and full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations. Need new glasses or want a fresh new style? Warby Parker has you covered. 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Hook says hopefully we go 1-0 in this buy. Dee says I don't think Wilson would have done well at Giants. Steelers have better players, coaching and culture. That's fair. Franklin says, PFF gave the Giants rookie class their number one ranking, Pat. Yeah, that's interesting. Well, I disagree with PFF then. Derek says, Pat, why do you think the Giants are waiting to announce Daniel Jones being cut or, you know, bench, whatever. Lock into video already have tape out there. Them playing will not be a surprise. Well, either they're not doing it or, you know, they do this kind of stuff with all kinds of things, whether it's who they're starting on their offensive line or whatever, they believe that things like that can give them a competitive advantage. Let's see. Franklin says, Pat, random, but there's a video of the not calling coach thing with coach prime when a reporter kept calling him Deon. A lot of folks thought that was disrespectful to coach prime. Deon was mad. Yeah, that was a ridiculous rant by him. You don't have to call him coach. He's not my coach. He's Deon. That's his name. So that's what he'll be called. He's not the president. He's not the pope. He's not some like regal figure who deserves to be genuflected to. He is he is a football coach. And so I will call him by his first name. And if he's a Giants head coach, one time I will call him Deon because that's his name. We had this with Jason Garrett when he was with the Giants. You know, we say, you know, there was something where he sounded like he was saying, you know, we say he corrected people to say we say a certain thing coach, you know, and they just came off as completely ridiculous. Jacob says the best thing Pat during the press conference was when Joe was getting tight when someone mentioned to him extending Jones as a mistake during the first off season. Yeah, he definitely seems well aware that it was a mistake and that he has made plenty of mistakes. Derek says Jones was a good giant. Nobody played harder. Yeah, no, I like Daniel. Dee says, what percentage do you think Joshi can turn this around Pat and be a successful long term GM for the G men? I don't have a lot of confidence. Dee, I think it'll really just depend, I guess, if if he does stay into next year, it'll depend on what quarterback he gets next year. That that's what it'll depend on. Obviously, I guess there's a world where he finds a stopgap because he doesn't get he doesn't feel great about the ones in the draft. And then like you said, grease the skids for arch matting the next year or whatever it is. But I think next year, it's about you hit on if you're if you're here, you either hit on the quarterback or you don't you're out. But, you know, I just don't feel as good about the building blocks as some others do. But like I said, there are some there is some talent here, right? Like, there's Dexter Lawrence from Dave Gedelman's regime. There's Andrew Thomas from Dave Gedelman's regime. There's Tyrone Tracy Jr, who Joe Shane drafted Malik neighbors obviously has some talent. Chris says, why do you think the GM and coach failed? There's a combination of personnel getting worse and bad game management and team management from the coach. I think that, you know, Shane's roster has been hyped a lot through his drafts and through his acquisitions. But I think when you actually look at the deployment of the people on the field and their production, I think that it's lacking. And I believe that while the Giants team certainly were losing a lot of games before these guys got here, I do believe that the roster is worse off now than it used to be. So I think Gable is actually working still with a pretty bad roster with a handful of talent on it. But I think that they're really thin or absent high end talent at key positions. And obviously the depth is not strong in a lot of areas. The offensive line is again an example of it where last year they gave up the second most sacks in NFL history. And then because of not drafting well or signing well their first year and free agency in the draft that they got here. And then last year they had the patchwork together. So now here in year three, they were scrambling to put just even a starting five together that could protect the quarterback. But that obviously hasn't fully sufficed. Not to mention that even though it has been improved, they also did not address a backup tackle situation. And now that is undercut what they have been able to do from a standpoint of at least trying to be functional on offense on the front. Steve, what's going on? Steve, I don't know if you were here the whole time, but I saw you drop an answer in the queue. I saw it late, but I saw you answered about Arnes Barger in the 70s on our estate 98 trivia question. So even though you didn't get the exact years, right? That was absolutely close enough. So please, Steve, send your address or PO box to me on Instagram, my direct message is PL on NFL. And I will get a bottle out to you as well as to Barry. So thanks for participating there. Steve with $10 super chat, he says, Mara should be flogged for Gettleman and Shane. Gettleman has had a few good picks, but left the team in shambles and Shane isn't a good enough talent evaluator to get them out of the rut. Yeah, well said, Steve, again, goes all the way up to ownership, not to mention that John Mara is a guy who, you know, I mean, he's the like, let's stay patient with Daniel Jones guy. That's John Mara, right? So the fact that they're here is not just on Joe Shane and Dave Gettleman. It's also on ownership and John Mara and Steve Tisch obviously driving that. And back to Chris's question as well as to Steve's here. I thought it was very interesting. Like, I, you know, there's people out there now still arguing about like the strength of Joe's evaluations. Shane legitimately said himself that he's made plenty of roster evaluation and personnel evaluation mistakes and essentially owned up to the fact that he hasn't, that he hasn't done well enough. So, you know, that's what I saw from him was essentially saying, yeah, year one, year one, we did what we could. And year two, we made a bunch of mistakes. And now he's like, well, now we're putting some pieces together. So please give us more time. It'll look good eventually. That's the way I viewed it. But even Joe Shane himself is now saying and acknowledging like, yep, I screwed up. Chris says, my fear is we keep the GM and coach because we are desperate. And we reach on a quarterback. That could very, that could very well happen. Yeah, and that's, I keep saying this, and it's not a, it's not an out on any of this. But they, they are in a really tough spot in all of these conversations and decisions, but they've put themselves in it. Let's see. Hey, Barbara, what's going on? Hi, Pat, I need some hope for the future for this team. Yeah, no, seriously. Yeah, I mean, I would say the first sign of hope that I would be looking for for the future is like Joe Shane's talking about Drew Phillips and Tyler Newman and Theo Johnson. If though, and even, even neighbors, right, who's kind of tailed off here and, you know, he needs to stop running short of the first down sticks when he's supposed to be across them, needs to get into playbook more. But like the rookie, the encouraging rookie class he's talking about, those guys need to play better, you know, like Newman needs to play better. I like Tyler a lot. He needs to play better. Drew Phillips had an encouraging start as battle injuries came back in, but now in the passing game and he's stuck, he struggled a little bit like he needs to play better. Theo Johnson needs to play better. I think he is what he is, a guy who can give you some production and is tough as nails, but also is limited, right? So, we'll see. Michael says, I like how they chose to tank when the team is celebrating their 100th season. Yeah, exactly, Michael. It's like, yeah, yes, great point, great point. Their 100th season they're benching their starting quarterback and possibly losing out to go for two and 15. Derek says from 2014 on the Giants only had one good season record. Barbara says the 2015 Giants had a good offensive scored a lot of points, but the defense was bottom. 2018 Giants scored the most points in the NFC East, but defense was bad and they lost close at the end. Michael said, do GM's lie to their owners? Well, you can, but you get caught in it, you're going to get fired. So, I think, I think definitely you tell them a version of the truth, you want them to hear. Well, that's why I pointed out too, Michael, and I think that's what you're getting at here. It's like Joe Shane, it's his prerogative to try to sell whatever he feels like he needs to to say that this is going in the right direction. How can John Mara and Steve Tisch listen to what we listen to in that press conference? Because you have to assume those are the same things that Joe Shane is saying internally about where they are. If you're John Mara and Joe Shane, how are you buying that as like signs of optimism and progress? Jacob said, Pat, do you break up well? Oh, man, that's funny. Eric says the first two draft classes are dog crap. Eric, right to the point. Barbers says 2022 wasn't even good. The schedule was easy and they got every break, raise the bar. Yes, raise the bar. Pat, do you think Henderson is the next scapegoat? I think he will be among them, right? Even if Daniel is not, not Daniel, even if Daybell is not fired. Yes, I do. It does still seem to be lining up that way. We will see. Eric says even a blind squirrel finds a nut drafting at the top. Yep. Jacob says, Pat, what happened to your living room and the piano? That was definitely a filtered background. I know you're just mocking it, but yeah, that was definitely a filtered background for our post game live. By the way, guys, I do post game live after every Giants game. So talking ball post game live after every Giants game from the stadium. So that's what I do every week. I come out of the locker room after talking to Brian Dable and talking to the players and in the locker room. I come with injury updates, analysis of the game from watching it live from talking to sources in the league with the Giants and bringing it right to you. It's usually about an hour and a half after the game ends because I file for the New York Daily News and write those stories first and then jump on with you guys, but always a great, great time, great conversation. And I think in my opinion, it's the best place to go directly for news and analysis and information from the source myself, you know, on Giants football after the games on game days. Let's see. Franklin says, honestly, I think the team isn't that great, but I feel like Daniel's inability to make plays and lift the team has cost them a few games, possibly a 500 team with a decent quarterback, different situation, possibly. Yeah, I think, I think more issues than you see, but Franklin, I'm not going to sit here and argue that Daniel hasn't undercut them with his mistakes along the way either. Of course he has. Yeah. Yeah, Ben, it does feel like Shane thinks it's a possibility that he would stay if Dable goes and seem to be even greasing the skids for his argument for that to happen. I have put my argument forward in the New York Daily News that I think Shane is too involved in running this ship from start to finish to be able to separate those two. But I think he certainly could try. All right, let's see. It's been a great chat. Thank you guys. So we got another super chat here. No nets. What's going on? What up, Pat? What up? No nets. Yeah. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for being here. Always, uh, always live in and up the chat. Thank you for that super chat. Really appreciate that. Let's see. Evan says the Giants make the same mistakes. They sign players that are wind now pieces when they should be rebuilding, doubling down on their own mistakes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, Evan. Yeah, that's the thing. This is not a situation where, oh, we've been building this whole time and let's continue building. No, they are behind because they drafted a team and felt like last year's team was ready to win. And they made critical mistakes in their team building process in the players they added in the love, the abilities of the players added, like they made so many critical mistakes there. They're the reason they're there in the situation they're in is those misevaluations and trying to win and kind of cut corners and all that. I mean, for Joe Shane to say they were blinded by the success of a nine, seven and one season is just an unreal statement, unreal comment. They lost 38 to seven in Philadelphia in the playoffs, 38 to seven. They got their asses kicked in that game blinded by the success. What? Eligante says, what's up, Pat? Do you see Dable throw Shane under the bus as I see it that they were not in lockstep with roster moves as Dable knows he's next to be fired. I think Dable has been subtle throughout the season pointing out. Oh, yeah, it'd be nice to have that guy. It'd be nice to have that guy. I think he has done that. I wonder if he'll get louder about it. I don't know. Barbra says Dexter Lawrence is a Gettleman pick. Shane gave me nobody. Your boy, hobby says, Hey, Pat, football is good. Did you already talk about potential GM candidates? I'm just getting in. Appreciate your no nonsense coverage. I did not. Your boy, um, Harvey, he, I was asked already about are there like, you know, established GM candidates out there, um, rather than like a first time GM. I think I need to probably do like a an episode purely on that because I got to admit I'm not armed at the moment with the top GM candidates for 2025 yet. Probably should be at this point. So, um, let me get that. Let me get that kind of, uh, those conversations going and rolling and, um, and we'll come back and do an episode where we go, we go deeper into that. Barry says, Pat, maybe just maybe table, maybe a better coordinator than a head coach. I think he is. I also think though that, look, he's been coordinating and running this office. It hasn't gotten better. Really the time when he was a really good offense coordinator is when Josh Allen was his quarterback outside of that, um, has never been anything special. Barbra says Gary Myers wants a giant, always a giant. That's right. Right there behind me. Where is it? That book wants a giant. Go get that book. Great book by Gary. Big blue. Steph, what's up? It says, isn't it crazy that the guy who caused the Tracy fumble was a Sean Robinson rather have him than not show interesting? Yeah, no, that was, that was interesting. Some revenge from a Sean against his former team or not really revenge, but you know, just getting him back after not bringing him back. Um, you know, what stuck out to me on that play too was that was a play where Dable's play call called for Theo Johnson to go from the, from next to the left tackle in line across the formation to the middle, basically where John Michael Schmidt's have been lined up to block the Mike linebacker and Theo didn't get there. And so the Mike linebacker fired into the backfield and Tracy had to dodge and move in the backfield. And that's when he started moving the ball and that's where how a Sean got it as he kind of went around John Runyon Jr. So, you know, it was a missed block technically by Theo Johnson, but also to me, not a favorable scheme either that didn't help the situation. Benji says, "Who in your opinion, Pat, is quarterback one in this upcoming draft? Or at least who do you like to be the Giants quarterback next year?" Uh, I guess Shador at this point is the guy. Ward, I think looks, I'm not sure how well he sees the field yet. I need to keep watching him. Looked like he was holding the ball a lot, even though he's got a really good arm. You know, Dart interests me. I want to keep looking into that, but, uh, you know, not a lot of rave reviews, but continuing to dig into that. Barbra says, "Drew Lock, uh, best game last year was beating the Eagles. Giant's quarterback room is at the bottom." Franklin says, "When was the last team that was number one in sacks, but two and eight through the first 10 games?" This should be the trivia question. Daniel Jones and the offense sucks. Quarterbacks matter a lot in the modern NFL. Past Rush has one sack in the last two games. Giant's defense is the worst run defense in football. Yes, they have, they do have a lot of sacks. Um, they also have given up big time scoring and touchdown drives and critical moments on defense, including in two minute and in critical situations. So, uh, but Franklin, yes, you're absolutely, I mean, listen, they're the lowest scoring offense in the league. They are the worst offense in the league. So yes, absolutely. The quarterback matters. Absolutely. He's missed. Um, you know, I'm, I'm past the point. I'm not arguing for Daniel Jones. Like, I'm not, I'm past the point where, you know, I'm not sitting here and saying Daniel Jones isn't to blame and everything's fine. A quarterback. I'm definitely, no, anybody who's still making that conversation, that argument, I think, you know, that that's not the argument to make at this point. Um, yeah. Also, David was the offensive coordinator. So Evan says Shane knows he messed up the Daniel Jones contract. He should have signed Wilson or drafted a quarterback in the later rounds. Um, Harvey says he didn't sign Russell Wilson because he had the justified Daniel Jones's contract. He would have been better served having a fortified backup who could win more than two games and save his job. And yeah, and really if they knew Daniel Jones was only worthy of a franchise tag, they should have just franchise tagged him instead of giving him that deal. And that whole Saquon Barkley situation trying to prove a point on Barkley and trying to prove a point on running back value and, and positional value, you know, you get yourself all twisted into pretzel and look where you are now. Ray says, when Joe Shane said the offense was ranked 23rd, what was he referring to? I have no idea. No idea. They have the lowest scoring offense in the league. And when he said, we're 17th in defense of 23rd offense, we're middle of the pack. Another one that just made me say, but yeah, I guess, I mean, again, that's another kind of thing. Like if he's selling that to ownership, how are John Maron, Steve Tisch sitting and listening to that and nodding their heads? Yes. How is that possible? Patrick says, Hey, Pat, just now getting on week days are hard to get on. But I'm here. Thank you, Patrick, for being here. Appreciate you. All good. If you can't make it live, always can check out the video and the podcast here on the YouTube channel P on NFL or on the Believe Network audio podcast on Apple Spotify. Please subscribe, rate and review. And guys, while you are here live, hit the like button. So while we are live right now, if you haven't already, just hit the like button that tells the YouTube algorithm to get to work. It tells Giants fans who aren't here yet that we're live and it brings more people to our community. So please do that. Big blue steps. Oh, right. Yeah, you said that already. Patrick says, just saw the press conference with Shane. What the F was that? I heard your questions to him. It seemed like you ruffled his feathers. Great job, bro. Thank you, Patrick. Ray says, keeping bad GMs and coaches because you're scared of the next guy failing his wild. I agree. Ray says, T, we know his people gave him talking points. I'm just wondering who gave him that stat since they are dead lasting points. Yeah, no for sure. John says, the root of the problem is John marriage. Just like his dad in the 70s, Wellington changed GMs and coaches, but until the NFL gave him George Young, full power, nothing worked. Ben says Ben Johnson, variable, Belichick, lots of options if we decide to move on from table. Yes, that coach for sure. NYC says 100%. John says, once Wellington died, John and the rest of the marriage started to interfere and the team eventually declined. Ryan says roster building question. If you were going to build a young foundation, which five position four to five positions would you consider most important? So quarterback, left tackle, edge rusher, corner, and I guess, I mean, I guess guard or D tackle, you know, guard or detackle next, probably guard. Like if I, if I'm getting like an elite guard to protect the interior as well, Brett says until arch manning is available, Jones is the starter. Sorry to break the news, folks. Brett, that would be, I mean, it would be amazing to see if they keep running Daniel Jones back out there. I liked Daniel. So I hope the best for him. Barbara says Reese never replaced a course you guys when they got older than the team went down because of it. Brett says year one, easy schedule, year two, brutal schedule, no line depth or development, year three, they have no clue. Patrick says, let this train wreck play out, no reason to change anything when we were headed towards the first pick. Hey, Salamo says GM and Jones look like actors playing quarterback and a young genius GM. That's pretty funny. Yeah, and like, in, yeah, no, that's, you know, in like a, and like a not another team movie type of way. Hey, two says what happens if the replacement quarterback goes down with an injury? Do we get DJ back again? Right. So well, that's the thing. If Drew Locke and Tommy DeVito are the active quarterbacks, if Drew gets hurt, then Tommy goes in, and then you have the third emergency quarterback is they can be put in the game if the other two are then not capable of playing. Steve says Pat Wellington, Mara was loyal to a fault when he was running the team. The apple doesn't fall from the far from the tree. Brett says, Pat, are the majority of players that left performing better with other teams? Yes, yes. Also, to me, it's also telling that they're glad they're gone because they didn't like how they were treated or handled here, especially at the end. Barbara says, Pat, your daily news article was posted on a couple giant sites. People definitely saw it and I'm glad you wrote it. Thank you so much, Barbara. Brett says, Pat, I thought Bellinger would have gotten the most snaps up until this point in the season, then bring on Johnson. He wasn't ready. Yeah, right. Exactly. And that's another concerning part about the Joe Shane evaluation process. At the tight end position, he has used a draft pick three straight years on the tight end. It still hasn't fixed it. Daniel Bellinger fourth round, Darren Waller with a trade third round plus a contract and Theo Johnson fourth round. That's a lot of assets to use at a position that is not a premium position and still not be getting it right. Brett says to Daniel Jones, come back too soon from injury. No, the injury, the knee is not is not the problem. I can tell you that the knee is not the problem. But just a reminder, we are sponsored here by my bookie, Boom Chaga and estate 98 coffee. My bookie is rolling out the red carpet for sports betters. Check my social media tomorrow, Thursday, November 14th for a special risk free boost or bet at my bookie for Thursday night football. So check that out. And then also coming this Saturday, I will once again be posting Pat's picks, my picks against the spread, my top picks against the spread, as well as my sprinkles from around the league since the Giants are off. The Eagles commanders is the Thursday night game. 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I did a an episode with rich funk, the co the founder of Boom Chaga. And you can find that on my YouTube page, PL on NFL or on on audio, wherever you find the Believe Network podcast, Apple Spotify, etc. And go listen to that tells you a lot about this product and why it's different. What Chaga does and also why boom is different from other Chaga products. But go to boomchaga.com today to place your first order. And if you use this discount discount code talking about 25 or access it through the QR code on your screen here, you'll get 25% off your first subscribe and save order. Right now that means a month's supply costs you only $30. Start feeling the difference today at boomchaga.com and brought to you by a state 98 coffee, a specialty coffee concentrate perfect for when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes me less than 10 seconds to make a delicious estate 98 iced or hot coffee. It's great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups of Joe go to a state 98 dot com backslash talking ball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. Like I said, thank you for all the super chats tonight. Please hit the like button before we finish this talking ball live here on YouTube. But also if you want to support us the best way to do it is by supporting our sponsors my bookie boomchaga and estate 98. Hobby says table is a cancer in his own locker room wink was dying to get out and they had to give Kafka vanity promotion to keep him they scapegoated Bobby Johnson for the online and he's doing fine with Washington I agree with everything he said. Patrick says it doesn't seem like this team plays with any pride who is the best leader on the team. You know Dexter is a lead by example guy and he has stepped into that role in the locker room. I think he's still kind of learning it. You know Andrew Thomas is a lead by example guy down on the field anymore. I mean Daniels Daniels a leader. You know he's just not producing but he's a leader. You know Darius Layton you know I think some of the offensive linemen have taken that role like Greg Van Rotten's tried to do that John Runyon Jr. John Michael Schmitz as a young guy and then you know Chris Manhertz the guy stands out to me as well. Jason Pinnock has done that on the defensive end so those are some of the guys that stand out to me. Michael you just got here no problem but yeah you missed a lot but you know you can go back watch watch the rest of it will be living on the YouTube channel P on NFL and you or you could listen to the audio version when I posted tomorrow but thanks for being here. Thanks for making it Michael. I know I've been on even with the days I've been going live you know we had been doing Mondays Thursdays and then Sundays kind of been over all over the map because the schedule is just so busy during the fall and just fitting it in when I can but tonight is a reminder just like our last post game live after the Germany game was a reminder that you guys are so super passionate about this team and about the Giants organization and so really appreciate you guys and thank you so much. Brett says is anyone thought about how Daniel Jones feels about the fans and media since he knows how they feel about him maybe he doesn't want to be here more than everyone but that once him gone I like him. Brett I totally agree I've asked him questions like that he just won't go completely there right he knows it doesn't serve him well to try to dunk on people or take people on in that way but I'm with you I'm with you I think you know it's that's why I really started kind of strongly defending him from a standpoint of stop scapegoating the guy because it's one thing to say okay move on and he's not the guy and you know he's not producing well enough it's another for the like universal Daniel Jones hate that I felt like the Giants were enabling you know I didn't feel like that was good I felt like it was a bad look and I don't think that it should be tolerated. Ryan says they've attempted putting their large assets into the right places but they've missed on the talent a lot of times. Dable pushing wink out and switching schemes really screwed them yeah that's a pretty good characterization of on both sides there Ryan and they do miss wink Martin Dale badly in fact I think I think the promise of 2022 was so much about like Dable got coach of the year but the coaching staff and what Martin Dale's defense was a huge part of this was always coaching to win that specific game attack that specific opponent and give them a schematic edge because their roster wasn't good enough and so I think they really missed that now on both sides of the ball you know Dable has fallen off on the offensive side of the ball and Bowen isn't giving them that on the defensive side of the ball. Guys this has been a tremendous chat we've gone over two hours or here on talking ball live with Pat Leonard on Wednesday November 13th Giants have a bye week they're two and eight we've gone over some of Joe Shane's press conference and where the Giants stand and go from here on the Daniel Jones situation if you missed parts or all of what we've done here you can go back and watch the whole thing on the YouTube channel PL on NFL or listen to it wherever I believe has its podcasts Apple Spotify wherever you get please subscribe rate review and like I said the super chats really appreciate those your comment or question gets answered first when you do them please support all our sponsors my bookie boom chaga and estate 98 and also hit that like button on your way out Michael says can you please ask one of the defensive corners why the corners never turn around and coverage and look for the ball definitely I can tell you Michael that in man to man sometimes you're just in a position where your back is to the ball because you're running with the receiver you actually saw Cordo Flott made a good play in the end zone the other day where his back was to the ball and he got his hand kind of up and in between the arms of the receiver and broke up a pass in the end zone there so there are techniques that you are taught to use when that happens in man to man coverage they're just not always always successful at it but that'll do it for this episode of talking about live with pat Leonard check back for more content here on the youtube channel on all my social media platforms and in the new york daily news can't wait to drop my pat's picks and my NFL sprinkles of week 11 on my social media profiles this coming saturday for the weekend of week 11 in the NFL and then we'll be back at it with the Giants facing the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in week 12 coming out of the by thanks so much for being here guys see you next time on talking ball live life can be hectic and managing your mental health is more important today than ever before that's why mindful therapy group's mission is to take the difficulty out of finding a therapist whether you need talk therapy psychological testing even medication management mindful has you covered our compassionate therapist specialize in helping you navigate stress anxiety ADHD OCD and so much more with both in-person and telehealth appointments available you can get the support you need in as little as 48 hours to make things easier mindful therapy group also accepts most insurance plans including medicare allowing you to focus on you and not your wallet mindful mental health providers offer services for children teens adults and seniors seeking individual family or couples therapy whatever you need we're here for you join us to start your journey to a healthier and happier you visit mindfultherapygroup.com or call 562 mindful to get started today Bingo all right fellow we're recording now so it's live go ahead pick on me the way that you want to did I say that I would say that to my son and I mean come on man just go this isn't CBS all right be quiet for a few seconds why would people want to listen to the sims complete podcast well a couple things one if you like to see sons pick on their father this might be the place if you want to see a place where the father just kicks he out of his son this would be the place how what do you like about it man ditto father son dynamic duo talking about the game of football that we love and share and appreciate together and you know hey it's an extension of what we did right growing up I was able to watch my father play football then obviously watch him as a broadcaster and then he taught me the game of football and share the wisdom that he learned throughout his playing career and you know hey sometimes we're full of it and sometimes we're we actually know a thing or two well we do do a lot of research at least I do you you little spotty but you know you're you hang in there it's fun I love doing this and it's been awesome sims complete check us out wherever your podcasts are available on the believe network appreciate it see you if you liked the show please take a moment to rate review and subscribe it really does help the show to grow thank you for listening [BLANK_AUDIO]
New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard breaks down Giants GM Joe Schoen's bye week press conference at 2-8 and forecasts Daniel Jones' fate in the team's final seven games and beyond during this live chat with fans in Week 11 of the NFL season.