Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard

A Lamar Jackson apology, Kyler Murray and Arthur Smith stock up, Caleb Williams and Houston Texans stock down

Duration:: 52m
Broadcast on:: 13 Nov 2024
Audio Format:: other

Super Bowl 50 champion Bennie Fowler apologizes to Lamar Jackson and corrects his MVP voting after watching the two-time MVP rattle off 290 yards and 4 TD passes to beat the Bengals and says Cincinnati needs to pay Ja'Marr Chase. New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard and Fowler discuss Kyler Murray, Bo Nix, Arthur Smith and in their shoutout segment, go over Caleb Williams' Bears blues and what it says about the annual NFL Draft hunt for a franchise QB, review Daniel Jones' and the Giants' predicament in New York and much more @Bleav. SUBSCRIBE to the @PLonNFL YouTube page to get the latest Giants updates and news delivered directly to you, and to participate in regular LIVE Q&A chats with Pat. Purchase a Super Chat or Super Sticker to have your comments elevated to the top of the feed and have Pat answer your question FIRST! Watch the full video of this @Bleav podcast on Pat's YouTube Channel. Find Pat also on 'X' (@PLeonardNYDN), Instagram (@PLonNFL) & TikTok (@PLonNFL). Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is brought to you by MyBookie. It’s MyBookie’s 10th year anniversary, and they’re rolling out the red carpet for bettors, including Risk-Free Thursdays and weekly no-sweat bets all season long. Use the promo code 'PATSPICKS' here to get your first deposit of $50 or more matched 100% up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your Football season a winning season with MyBookie! Bet Anything, Anytime, Anywhere. Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is also sponsored by @BoomChaga and @Estate98Coffee. BOOM Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune-boosting antioxidants and heart-healthy compounds. Go to BoomChaga.com and use the code TALKINBALL25 to get a 25% discount on your first Subscribe and Save Order. Estate98 Coffee is a specialty coffee concentrate that's perfect when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes less than 10 seconds to make a delicious Estate 98 iced or hot coffee, it’s great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order.

[MUSIC PLAYING] This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are the things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to another episode of Talking Ball with Pat Leonard. This is first down with Benny Fowler, week 10 edition, where a Super Bowl champion former NFL wide receiver joins us to break down all the action across the league. First, I want to tell you about our sponsors. We are grateful to have my bookie on board. My bookie is rolling out the red carpet for sports betters. This football season, including with a special promo code, hats, picks, use it at the link in all my social media profiles, and get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more, all the way up to $1,000. Think about it this way. I predicted the giant to be two and eight at the buy with wins over Seattle and Washington. And the giants are two and eight at the buy with wins over Seattle and Cleveland. So bet anything, anytime, anywhere with my bookie. Also brought to you by BoomChaga Mushroom Super Drink a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. You can easily pour this natural liquid supplement into any of your favorite drinks. I put mine in my coffee every morning and immediately feel the difference. I personally have felt a post-workout like energy boost with Boom. Chaga also has the ability to lower cholesterol, reduce inflammation and improve immune and heart health. With its beta glucans and antioxidants, go to boomchaga.com today to place your first order. And if you use the discount code TalkingBall25 or access it through the QR code on your screen, you'll get 25% off your first subscribe and save order. Right now, that means a month's supply cost you only $30. Start feeling the difference today at boomchaga.com. And we are brought to you by estate 98 Coffee, a specialty coffee concentrate, perfect for when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes me less than 10 seconds to make a delicious estate 98 iced or hot coffee. It's great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkingBall to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. And now onto first down with Benny Fowler, week 10 edition. All right, another episode of first down with Benny Fowler here on the TalkingBall with Pat Leonard podcast. Benny, what's going on? What'd you think of week 10 in the NFL? Week 10 in the NFL, the NFL never disappoints. This is the most exciting league for a reason. We only play once a week, one game a week. You got your Thursday games, your Sunday games, Monday night games, but this league never disappoints. There's always a storyline. It's like a huge soap opera. When you're thinking about all the headlines, people getting fired, wins and loss of teens, hopes and dreams, playoff dreams, either living or dying week to week. So it was a great week. What'd you think? Yeah, no, well said. I think that there's a lot of shout outs we got to give out today. I also think, like you said, a lot of continued black Monday watches going on around the league. And I wanted to start with one of them with the Chicago Bears, an interesting team here. And I wanted to talk about them specifically as it relates to their quarterback and to team building. Because I talked to several people who were involved in that game. Some people who were just at that game. And their loss scoring only three points to the New England Patriots, losing that game. And then Shane Waldron, the offensive coordinator, gets fired coming out of it. Now, of course, the offense isn't good enough, isn't creative enough. And Matt Eberfloos, the head coach, is on the hot seat. But what stood out to me having these conversations with some sources in Chicago, the same thing kept coming up from what these people told me they observed in this game. And it was that Caleb Williams is small and that they're not sure they fully see it from a number one overall pick who I think the assumption from most people was landing him was going to change that franchise for the better. And I'm asking this question to you in the context of what's going on here in New York and what goes on every year when teams lose their way into a chance to draft a top quarterback. Want to know from you as a wide receiver, two things. One, does the height of a quarterback matter to a receiver and an offense? Do you think it's important for a guy whose size isn't there in the pocket? Is it more difficult for them to succeed? And two, I just am curious how you view the obvious success or failure of a team's chances at getting that franchise quarterback at the top of a draft. Like if you're a fan ex in Denver or San Francisco or New York, how confident are you going into next year's draft the year after that you're going to be able to change your team with one pick? - I think it really just depends on your leadership, the organization and how they think about things. I think when you think about Caleb, I did not know he was, what is he, six feet tall, five, 11. I'm not sure, you know, he is a stocky quarterback in terms of the way he is built, but when I do think about shorter quarterbacks, it is a little bit harder to play with those guys because you can't see them over the line. When I think about some of the taller quarterbacks that I played with in like a Peyton Manning or Eli Manning or a Paxton Lynch or whoever it may be, you can actually see those guys at the light, the height of the offensive lineman or you can't see them. If they're smaller like a Drew Brees or a Trevor Simeon, you know, it's hard to see the ball come out and it's just like, you know, the ball is getting spit out and then you see it. So I think when it comes to smaller quarterbacks like a Drew Brees, those quarterbacks, he was able to succeed because he was super accurate. Number one, he played on time number two. So I think when you think about smaller quarterbacks, they have to play on time. They have to be able to extend plays. Drew wasn't a person that extended plays in terms of his legs, but when you think about the accuracy, he's the most accurate quarterback in the history of the NFL, he was a timing quarterback. He was a rhythm quarterback and he knew all the progressions you would see Drew. I would always see Drew on a Saturday before the game and he would start at the one yard line at the opposite end of the field and then go yard line by yard line and go through every script on the play, but he had all those plays memorized. Then he was able to go through progression one, progression two, progression three, check down and that's he would go through all the plays on the script so he could have that timing and rhythm. And then when you think about a guy like Purdy, who is a undersized quarterback as well, he plays on time, plays on rhythm. So that's what you have to have. You have to play on time, play on rhythm and then a Kyler Murray. I don't know, I wouldn't say he necessarily plays on time and on rhythm, but he's able to extend the play and then he is able to have some of his plays be on time and on rhythm. So it looks like Caleb's holding the ball too long and we've heard that being said on TV throughout the week is that he's holding on to the ball, but yeah, everything just looks hard and everything, nothing looks easy. There are no easy plays and I think that's a little reason why he's struggling. Now when it comes to a team and them drafting a quarterback, it's hard to draft a quarterback. It's no different than investing into a business. You invest into a business you wanted to succeed, of course, but do you have the leadership in place for it to succeed? Can you actually make sure do you have all the pieces and foundations? Foundation there for that quarterback to succeed. When we look at Chicago, they put all the skill players around Caleb to succeed, but they didn't put the most important people around him, which is the offense line. And when you look at Detroit and compare him to Detroit's offense line and Chicago's offense line, they don't add up. I mean, Detroit is able to move people off the line and scrimmage because of what they can do upfront. And that's how they built their team. So Chicago would have been better off either drafting some players in the offense line in the first round to help Caleb or also paying those guys in free agency. And I think that's where they have to make some changes in the offseason. - Yeah, I think if there's one change I could envision them trying to make on offense right away. Another observation from people there was even though he seemed undersized, he wasn't moving a lot. So there was the criticism of holding the ball too long, but we know from watching him at USC that his movement skills his ability to extend plays is part of what makes him special. It's why people compared him to Patrick Mahomes coming out. And so I would think especially to your point, they did not invest enough in the offensive line. So it would have to follow that a way to try to get more out of him here would be to try to play action boot, get him on the move, don't have a traditional pocket that defenses can attack because clearly your line and quarterback can't handle that. And frankly, that's probably part of the reason the offensive coordinator is getting fired here because if that lack of execution and imagination is there, then you would have to think you need to go to some format like that to try to unlock him a little bit more. But yeah, just 15 to 25 in this three point loss or three points scored against New England. I think it was 1983, 184 passing yards, one touchdown, one interception. And obviously, Benny, part of the reason I'm fascinated about this is because in New York right now here with the Giants, they're two and eight at the bye week after losing to a horrendous Carolina Panthers team in Germany. And the fan base here is tired, Benny. They're tired of all the coaching changes. They're tired of all the losing. So they're trying to look at this as a glass half full. They're trying to look at this as well. We're losing our way into selecting our next franchise quarterback. So that's how the fans are trying to treat it. But I want to pivot to a question about now our guy, Daniel Jones. Here at the bye week at two and eight, it seems likely that the Giants are going to bench/shutdown Daniel Jones because they're already going to move on from him and because he has an injury guarantee in his contract next year, $23 million kicks in if he can't pass his physical in March. So my question to you is, if you're Joe Shane and Brian Dable, can you risk benching Daniel Jones and losing the locker room and losing out and keep your jobs? And flip side is, can you risk continuing to play him and locking him in to your roster next year when that's going to cost you money and you already know that you're moving on? - Well, number one, I would say when you think about Joe Shane and Brian Dable, they've already lost the locker room. So I wouldn't say that they're in jeopardy of losing the locker room. I think they've already lost the locker room. And I think we saw that a couple of weeks ago. And I think Joe Shane kind of lost the locker room when that clip of HardKnocks came out and he was talking to Saequan and wasn't extending Saequan. And Mr. Moore said, I hope we don't lose him. He's one of our most popular players. So I think he lost the locker room then and is unfortunate to see. Dable, I don't know what type of player he or coach he is on the day-to-day or week-to-week, but I would say that he hasn't or that he has lost the locker room. So from a business perspective, I can see why they would sit DJ. You know, it's just, you know, you don't want to get him hurt. There's what, seven, they got seven games left. - Seven, yep. - Seven games left. Don't want to get him hurt. I think you go into this point now where you see what Drew Lock has. You see what the, you know, Tommy DeVito, you don't see what he has, but you know, you go with Drew Lock and Tommy DeVito from a business perspective, see what they have, see what they have out there. And just now it's time to go play the spoiler. If you're a Giants fan or you're one of the teams, it's time to go piss some teams off in the division. You can't piss the commanders off. You went one-on-one there. But how do we piss the Cowboys and the Eagles off, even though the Cowboys stink, but how do you go piss the Eagles off? 'Cause you play them one more time. But other than that now, it's trying to see what your young guys have in that locker room. And if they do have the opportunity to come back, and I'm talking about Joe Sheen and Dave All, then you can see what some of your young players have. But I think they're on the hot seat as well in terms of their jobs and just where this organization is. And, you know, it's just the lack of fire. Yeah, Carolina is not a good team at all. Losing in Germany isn't good. And losing to a team that has been struggling. And teams have been beating this team handily. It's just, yeah, it's not good. So, you know, it's an unfortunate situation. I hate to see it happen today. And 'cause he's such a good guy. And I know he really cares about the game. But from a business perspective, I can understand why they would sit him right now. Yeah, it's a really awkward and difficult situation. A lot of losing, like I said. A tired fan base, a tired team. You know, nothing good really happening here in New York. So that's why I want to pivot over to Denver, where Bo Nix, a quarterback who I got to admit, in the off season, I didn't see it. I didn't scout him well enough to say, like I could be a GM, I would take him or not. But this guy is going five for five on this last drive against Kansas City. I know the Chiefs blocked the field goal and end up winning. Obviously, they just find a way to win all these close games every week. But Benny, we've talked about him, but it feels like they have something here in Bo Nix, especially from like 215 yards, two touchdowns, no turnovers. And of course, yeah, low scoring game and all that. But as far as the mocks he goes and going into Arrowhead and facing Spagnolo's defense and almost winning outright, I mean, you got to be really high on this if you're the Broncos fan right now. Yeah, he's one of my shout outs. This week would be Bo Nix is one of my shout outs. Number one, he was Rookie of the Month last month, playing exceptionally well and progressing week by week. It was tough last week in terms of the Baltimore game and Baltimore really putting on the Broncos defense. But Bo Nix did have some opportunities in the Baltimore game where he did drive the ball down the field, but there were some turnovers there. But he definitely didn't carry that over to this week and made some exceptional plays in Kansas City, in Arrowhead and like you said, five or five on the last drive, Bo continues to get better through a dime to Courtland Sutton down the field. I think he's starting to understand the progressions of a Sean paid in offense. I think Sean has done a really good job and exceptional job of using Bo's strength. We're starting to see some quarterback runs. We're starting to see some play action. We're seeing Bo extend plays with his legs and we're seeing his playmaking ability. And I think Sean picked the quarterback that was right for him and his offense. And I think Bo has become a little bit more accurate over the months and it's good to see. So shout out to Bo Nix in terms of what he's doing. Yeah, they should have won the game. Block field go. I know there were some questionable calls that our piss and Broncos fans off that the refs gave this game away. But to go into Arrowhead and go toe to toe with the defending champions, Kansas City Chiefs and play well and not turn the ball over, you have to love what you're seeing from Bo Nix in terms of what he's doing. So super happy about his progression as a quarterback. And it's only just the beginning, you know, he's still a rookie and there's still seven more games for him to play and progress as well. Yeah, no, it's really exciting for Broncos fans. Want to connect something you mentioned earlier that I forgot to follow up on to this. You mentioned Drew Brees went down every yard line down the field and went through the progressions and situations in Sean Payton's offense for the New Orleans Saints. Want to ask you, is Payton's offense complicated enough or are there enough intricacies and progressions in it that you think that's required for a quarterback to work within his system? And then two, could you just expand a little bit on what exactly, when he was doing it, where that was, like, was that a practice field or in the bubble, is there anybody else on the field when he's doing it? 'Cause when you said that, I kind of went, you know, my jaw hit the floor for a second and then I forgot to follow up on it. Yeah, it was incredible to see. But number one, I've been blessed to play with some really good quarterbacks and be around some great quarterbacks and just look at their practice habits and Drew was one of them. And yeah, Sean does have a complicated offense in terms of the progressions, in terms of the timing. So what Drew would do on Saturdays is after we would have our walkthrough, so we have our offensive walkthrough and then we have a team walkthrough, everybody leaves the indoor facility and then Drew stays in the indoor facility. And then he starts at the one yard line and he goes through the entire script. And when I say the entire script, I'm talking about the play menu that you'll see a Sean Payton have or Andy Reed, whoever it may be, any coach, you'll see that their menu of plays, Drew would actually go through that yard line by yard line and go through each play, each pass and play, do the drop back, okay, where's my first read, second read, third read, check down. And then you would see him just go like this with his hands, one, two, three, one, two, three. And if you go look back at some of Drew Brees highlights, or if you go, not even the big plays, look at the check downs to Camara, where Camara scores or any of those plays, watch him go through the progression. It's literally one, two, check it down. One, two, three, check it down. And he would do it in practice. So we would practice as well. He dropped back, okay, the cover says, my first read is here, he would throw the ball and then you would watch him go to a second progression, third progression, fourth progression throughout practice. So he just had it dialed and timed in, but that's what you see out of a veteran quarterback. And when you think about a bow nicks or when you think about these young quarterbacks, those are the practice habits that you want to see and that you want to gain over time. So it's hard to do, but yeah, he was dialed in like that, Peyton was dialed in like that, Eli was dialed in like that. And that's, you know, that's the sign of greatness. - That's incredible. - It was awesome to see. - Wow, all right, so bow nicks kicks off our shout outs portion of the podcast. Benny, who's next on your shout outs list? - Next on my shout out list, and I need to make an apology to Lamar Jackson. I think I had him either second or third on my MVP list. And that was a huge mistake. I think we did, we recorded this on Monday or Tuesday, of last week and then on Thursday night, he goes out and he throws for five touchdowns. So Lamar, I would like to say, I'm sorry. New our number one on the MVP list. His stats are incredible. 24 touchdowns, he's thrown two interceptions, but just the swagger that he's playing with, the pocket presence that he's playing with, it's just incredible. And he's on his way to winning his third MVP and back to back MVPs and playing some incredible, incredible football. - That is number one on my shout out list. Do you have one or I'm ready to go to my second one? - Go ahead, go ahead, you're rolling. - My second one is shout out to Jamar Chase. Cincinnati, you better pay this man right now. Jamar Chase is on his way to getting a record setting extension. I mean, two games this year of over 250 yards receiving. No one can stop him, Baltimore's defense. You know he's the number one guy. I don't even know if T Higgins played last week. It doesn't matter. He didn't play and Jamar Chase goes for 264, incredible. I did not know he was that fast. I was talking with one of my buddies about it and I did not know he was that fast. I mean, you saw him catch the dig route across the middle and then pull away from everybody. Just an incredible talent, incredible hands and just making incredible plays. And like Jamar said, he is always open. So that's my second shout out is Jamar Chase. - I was just gonna ask you about exactly what you just mentioned is 'cause when Malik neighbors came out, a lot of people said, funny enough, even though both LSU guys, but this isn't the reason, but he reminded a lot of people of Chase for this reason. Yeah, okay, he gets open, catches the ball, whatever. He's tough and even contested catch wise, he's good. But it's catching the ball and it's that acceleration, Benny. Like you can see the safety. I think it might have been Marcus Williams. You could see the safety is just not prepared for how much faster he's gonna start running once the ball is in his hands. I just, I don't know where does that kind of skill come from? Like I feel like you're used to watching, like look at Calvin Austin with Pittsburgh right now, you know, the type of receiver who he's just a burner, you know, just a fast guy where, you know, Tyree kills obviously a freak, but or a jail and wattle. Like a guy who is super fast all the time, but it's kind of the same speed. You know, Chase is so interesting as a receiver in that he's running his routes one way. Then when the ball's in his hand, it's like you're just not denying him. - Yeah, I think that's just God giving ability in his acceleration and the way he just, the way he plays. I think you see this with a debo Samuel as well in terms of, you know, debo is not a four, three guy, but if he catches the ball, you're not gonna catch him. And he just has that run after catch ability. And I don't know, maybe this is a question that we throw out to the offense, right? Not the offense. This is a question that we throw out to the audience right now is who is wide receiver you? Is it LSU or is it Ohio State in terms of the receivers that these guys are putting out in the dominance? I know right now one and two have to be Chase and Jefferson, but you have Olave, you have Smith and Jigba in Seattle, you have Garrett Wilson in New York, you know, those are all Ohio State guys. - Marvin Harrison Jr. - Marvin Harrison Jr. Another Ohio State guy, but who is wide receiver you? Because you have neighbors, you got Jamar Chase. And then you have Justin Jefferson, who are, you know, these guys are top 15 in the league, top 20 in the league in terms of receivers. So we need to ask the audience who is receiver you right now in terms of Ohio State or LSU, in terms of what they're putting out. - Yeah, that's a great question. If you're listening or watching, go in the comments section right now. If you're seeing this clip on Instagram or on the YouTube channel, P.L. on NFL, TikTok, Twitter, whatever, get in those comments and give us your answer on the Believe Network here on Talking Ball with Pat Leonard. Remember, we're sponsored here by MyBookie, BoomChaga and estate 98 Coffee. MyBookie used a promo code, Pat'sPix at the link in all my social media profiles. Get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. With BoomChaga, go to boomchaga.com and use the discount code TalkingBall25 or access it through the QR code on your screen and get 25% off your first subscribe and save order. And for estate 98 Coffee, go to estate98.com/talkingball to get an exclusive offer of 80% off your first order. Sticking with shout outs, Benny. What a mind that stood out and honestly, you apologize to Lamar Jackson. I'm gonna apologize to this guy and to you because you told me, you corrected me last week when I said that this team wasn't anything to think about and you said this team's playing good football now, this quarterback's playing good football and that is Kyler Murray in Arizona with the Cardinals. This guy went 22 of 24, 266 passing yards, one touchdown, three rushes, 21 yards, two touchdowns. Beat the breaks off a Jets team that looked like it has no interest in finishing the season. But Benny, Kyler Murray, like if he stays healthy and puts together a rest of the season, the way that he is now playing, he's going to enter the MVP conversation and this will be a playoff team. - Yeah, it's shout out to Kyler and what he's doing. I'd be curious to see the progression of how he's grown as a leader, being injured, tearing his ACL maybe a year and a half ago and then working his way through that last year and then now being fully healthy again and just playing with an extreme amount of confidence. In 2020, he played well, but now he looks like he's progressed as a pro and he looked like he progressed in terms of the offense when you think about some of the weapons that they have, the tight end McBride, I think he's a CSU guy. He's making incredible plays, super athletic, Marvin Harrison, Jr., James Connor, just an incredible player and they're just playing with a lot of swagger right now and they believe that they can win these games and now they've gained the momentum and now they're leading in the division. So it's going to go down to the wire because I think this leads into, 'cause they aren't, this team is in the same division. I think this leads into San Francisco 'cause San Francisco is now healthy and having McCaffrey back out there, you see how he was playing in the past game. I think they should have won by more the, obviously the kicker missed three field goals so you missed nine points right there. - I'm laughing right now. Deebo punching the long snapper. - That's my former teammate at Michigan State, Tabor Pepper. - Tabor Pepper. - Tabor Pepper is just trying to stick up for his kicker. That scene was so hilarious. I mean, obviously you don't want to see that in a team but it's funny 'cause it's actually okay in a team. I mean, I've been on teams like that where that type of thing is okay. Tabor's sticking up for his specialist but at the end of the day San Francisco wants to win a Super Bowl and that's not acceptable. We should be winning this game and we should be, this is unacceptable right now. That's your job and hey, if Deebo dropped six passes in a row or three passes in a row on third downs, somebody who's gonna get in his face too. So I'm okay with the John back and forth on the sideline and that means everybody cares but at the end of the day, we're paid to do the job and if you can't do the job, then there's gonna be hell to pay. So I'm okay with the pushing and shoving on the sideline and they'll get over it. So they'll be fine if they got a great locker room and culture which I know they have. - Accountability. So without Brandon Iyuk who's done for the season, you still like them to be a major factor even without that piece. - I think so. I think Pierce all getting his first touchdown. I think he's a great route runner. He's a great catcher of the football first round pick. You're gonna miss Iyuk in terms of his big playmaking ability and his route running ability but I think that's something that Kyle Shanahan can overcome just based off of. Pierce all stepping in, having McCaffrey back, having Kittle, having Deebo, having Joanne Jennings who is just becoming a star in the making in terms of his playmaking ability. I still think they have plenty of weapons and then you've got a great and solid offensive line run game and then the people that they have on defense as well. So I still think that they are on the up and up and I think they're trending up just based off of them now being healthy for the rest of the season. - I felt like I learned a lot about Jennings at the Super Bowl last year. I was outside and in back and forth the Niners locker room after they lost in Vegas and he was so upset and I know everybody was upset. But you remember he kind of came on really strong in the second half of that game. There are people watching that game that never heard of him. And you would imagine that a guy who's a role player who's not used to that spot, yes, he's upset that he lost but also it's like the story is just, hey, this guy put his best foot forward. He's going to keep growing and the arrows pointing up. He was devastated like he was the franchise quarterback with all the pressure on his shoulders. Like that's how he was acting. He was crying. Yeah, I remember seeing him talking to Mike Shanahan outside the locker room was trying to console him. But I felt like I knew in that moment that this guy wanted more responsibility. Like he wanted to be the guy. It wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't like being in that moment. Not only was it not too big, it was like he was ready to come right back this season and do it again. So, you know, I like that mindset. Again, I think that speaks to the culture they have there too. Absolutely. No, he really cares about the game and, you know, Sam Fran was my last team and I got a chance to see him during OTAs and training camp and, you know, he's a shit talker. He likes to make plays. He likes to have fun. He likes to get after it. And you can see the way he blocks people. Even when he doesn't have the ball, he's that type of guy. And, you know, he's blocking in the run game. He's blocking in the past game. So, you know, he's an integral part of their offense and they scheme plays to get him open. So, he'll continue to make those plays and it's great to see him back on the field. All right. You got any more shout outs? I have one more. Nope. I don't have any more shout outs. All right. Let's go to my, this is a trifecta of offensive coordinators and I'll zero in on one, but we could talk about all three a little bit. I mean, we just talked about Arizona. I think Drew Petzing, you know, continues to do a great job using all the weapons that you described. Ben Johnson, we've talked about him before, but Betty, the one thing that stands out to me about Ben Johnson with the Lions right now is like, yeah, five interceptions for golf. You know, Houston did a good job before. This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Because progressive offers discounts for pain and full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Getting engaged can be stressful. Getting the right ring won't be at bluenile.com. The jewelers at bluenile.com have sparkled down to a science with beautiful lab-grown diamonds worthy of your most brilliant moments. Their lab-grown diamonds are independently graded and guaranteed identical to natural diamonds. And ready to ship to your door. Get $50 off your purchase of $500 or more with code pod at bluenile.com. That's bluenile.com code pod for $50 off. I'm seeing him in the drop-back passing. But the way that Johnson finishes drives with touchdowns with his play calling progression to me is second to none in the NFL. Like the drive where they had a run to Gibbs to the left, a screen pass to Gibbs to the left, and then a jet motion of Ammarah St. Brown from left to right and then flips into a bubble screen on the right-hand side with the offensive line and pen a sole activating out and St. Brown goes in untouched in the end zone. Like they showed D'Amico Ryan's and the defensive players on Houston had no idea what hit them. So he is just, you know, I mean, in his bag, as they say. And then the one that I wanted to focus on that we really haven't talked about at all yet is Arthur Smith with the Steelers. Yes, they have talent and like Russell Wilson, even though he's been bad for the last few years, of course, has that talent and ability. But Benny, it's hard to ignore how much they've unlocked there offensively with a team that we know is tough as nails, has a good defense and a good head coach and Mike Tomlin. Like I think Arthur Smith is clearly getting the best out of Russell Wilson, Najee Harris, an offensive line, guys in and out. And, you know, not just George Pickens who has been revitalized by the presence of a quarterback who can throw the ball down field, but even, you know, Calvin Austin in the downfield passing game. I just think he's doing a great job. Yeah, those are all great shout outs. I think Ben Johnson really sticks out all his play calling. It all fits off of one another. And you see this when Kyle Shanahan really can scheme up a team. Every play complements one another. And this is what you see out of Ben Johnson is that all the plays complement one another. They're not just, okay, hey, we're going to run the screen to the left and then we're going to do something to the right. It's like no, everything is setting something up. And that's how, you know, the screen to Amun Ra becomes that wide open is because you have the play action. You have a couple of play actions. You have a run to the left and you have a play action and then you have a screen and then you have a screen to the right and everything. They're just getting the defenders. The defenders don't know which way to go or what to go with. And I think Jared Goff is also doing a great job in terms of his. I would say his ball handling in the way he's handling the ball in terms of the play action. You can't tell if it's a run. You can't tell if it's a pass. So I think that also goes hand in hand with it as well. When it comes to Arthur Smith and the Steelers. Yes, he's definitely unlocked the passing game. I think Mike Williams was a underrated pickup in terms of just having another big body to throw jump balls up to. I think that's Russell's game is like, let me just throw it up. He's going to put a lot of arc on the ball and he's going to give his taller receivers an opportunity to make the play. I don't know if that recipe is going to work. If you have to go to a Kansas City who plays at different a different top style of defense or if they get into a shootout with the team. But right now it is working and George Pickens is a hell of a receiver route runner playmaker. Just overall, you know, his body and his body control in the way he is able to go up and make these plays is incredible. Yeah, he's tough. All right, one, one kind of random team I wanted to talk about that I felt like stood out to me coming out of week 10. And unfortunately it's my Super Bowl pick, the Houston Texans. So of course we learned again that Detroit can win a lot of different ways. The Lions are an excellent team. They're tough. They don't give up. They can win in a lot of different ways all that. But Benny, I feel like what I learned here watching this game is that Houston can't win this season. And here's why. Of course, if Nico Collins gets back healthy that will help them immensely. I think it's a concern just like when you look at Dallas's offense, what it had been early in the season, you can't just be relying on only one player like CD lamb or Nico Collins. And then that guy goes out and you can't move the ball at all. Like it's just not, it's just not sustainable. But what I saw in this game, Benny was the Lions commit to dropping the run and Joe mix in 25 carries 46 yards. And we knew going into the season, the Houston would struggle to run the ball because of their offensive lines. It's not their strong suit. But to me, even though I like the quarterback and he did have some mistakes in this game too. But even though I like the quarterback and I like a lot of the makeup of the team. If this team can't run the ball when a top five team decides that they're not going to allow them to. I don't think they're going anywhere. I hate to say it, but it sounds like my prediction is going to be true. What do you think of that? Yeah, I don't think they'll be able to pull it off this year. Stefan Diggs getting hurt is a big deal. I think they did struggle to run the ball. But I wouldn't be discouraged in terms of the Nico Collins thing. I think CJ Strada made a couple mistakes that he normally wouldn't make the incredible interception by Carlton Davis. He made a hell of a play. That was a great play in terms of it was skinned up. It was wide open. He just put too much air on the ball. But that would have been a touchdown. Who knows how the game unfolds there? So I think there are plenty of opportunities. I think Detroit did get home a lot in terms of that and CJ was not able to escape the rush and keep plays alive. But there were some plays that were open and some touchdowns to be made. So it was a struggle for Houston. But they put up 23 points in the first half. They could have ran away with that, especially if they had scored that touchdown in the second half to open up the game. But Carlton Davis made a hell of a play. No doubt, no doubt. All right. This brings us to our power rankings, our top five to wrap things up here. Betty, you go first. Who do you have as your top five NFL teams going into week 11 of the NFL season? I don't know. Who do you have as your top five NFL teams? I would put Detroit at one. Kansas City at two. Baltimore at three. Ooh. The Eagles at four. Who's at five? Just saying. Some options would be Vikings, commanders, bills. I'm leaving out the one I have in the top five because I would put San Fran in the top five now that they're healthy. Oh, okay. There you go. All right. San Fran rounding out the top five. My top five would be the Chiefs at one, the Lions at two, but honestly, every week, I'm not sure which ones won and which ones too, but they're definitely both up there. I have the Eagles at number three because their defense is playing well. And if they have all those weapons, I don't think anybody wants to play them. Steelers I'm putting at number four because I feel like they are a well-rounded, balanced and tough team, which I think is very difficult to say about almost every team in the league. And I'm going to give the Buffalo Bills the number five slot. I'm not quite sure what they are still. I mean, the record strong, obviously. I don't know. Baltimore Ravens have fallen out for me. And this is what I want to debate to close this out on. You have the Ravens out there. Benny, how could this team win with this defense? They are amazing offensively. Lamar is amazing. Derek Henry is amazing. Their offensive line in the run game is dominant. I mean, if I'm a defensive player, there's fear in my eyes trying to take on some of these old linemen coming downhill. But how can this team win anything with this defense? I think this team, different than the Baltimore team last year or other Baltimore teams in the past, is that they can get into a track meet with somebody and still win. I think that's the difference, is that, hey, we can get into a track meet now. And based off of all of the weapons we have, the reigning MVP, maybe three time MVP, along with Derek Henry, it looks totally different. It looks totally different in terms of they can keep up in terms of the scoring pace. So if somebody puts up 35, they can put up 38 or 41 or whatever it may be. So I think they're winning these games now in the long run, or they are winning these games in terms of they can keep up with the score. So yeah, the defense may not be as great right now, but they can keep up. Interesting. Yeah, I guess a fair point would be too. Like, even though Philly's defense has looked better lately, they're a team that's kind of built the same way as the Ravens, right? It's like, okay, we're getting some better play out of our defense, but we're probably going to give up some points. And I think that's a great way to score you, because we've invested in AJ Brown and Jill and Hurts and St. Juan Barkley and Devonta Smith and Dallas Goddard, right? So I guess those, you know, and I think in the, in the playoffs, they'll play more complimentary football, where if they have to have a drive that has to be a 10 minute drive and run the ball with Lamar and Derek Henry, they will. They don't have to use Lamar's legs right now, which is great. He's passing great from the pocket, but if they need to have a 10 minute drive or 17 play 10 minute drive in the playoffs, I think they have now the offense ability to just dictate what they want to do. It's really interesting. The longer I'm around football, though, Benny, the more, and honestly, this supports your inclusion of San Francisco, which I left out, but the longer I've been around football, the more once it gets into those conference championship games, the teams like the Chiefs, Lions, and even the Steelers this year now and the Niners, who they don't blow up teams out every week. They just have the best plan to win that week and they don't rattle in close games. Those tend to be the teams left standing at the end, right? Yeah. And I guess I'm, it's unfair to omit the Packers. I mean, it didn't play this week. They are a team who should enter this conversation despite, you know, maybe the quarterbacks still not ready. But to me, that that's what stands out to me. Like I look at Detroit, I look at golf throwing five interceptions and I don't blink because I'm like, they just want a game they had no business to because they didn't, they didn't need that. They could win somewhere else. I feel like those are going to be the team last team standing. Yeah, but if Jared Groff ever has a game like that in the playoffs, they won't win that. I think people should know that if you turn the ball over five times against Kansas City, they're going to blow you out. If you turn the ball over five times against, I don't know who else, if you turn the ball over five times against San Francisco, they're going to win. Green Bay. They're going to win. Right. So it's good that he got that ugly game out of the way. But that's the one thing about the playoffs. And I know teams always get excited. People get excited is that it's one game elimination. And if you play like that, then you're going home. Right. So I do have one thing to throw out there. Let's go. It's interesting to see what's going on with the New York Jets. And obviously Aaron Rodgers is one of the greatest quarterbacks all time, four time MVP. You know, one of the best pastors, one of the most naturally gifted pastors of all time. But everybody compared him to Peyton, leaving Indy and then going to Denver and then Brady leaving New England and going to Tampa. But is he now out of that conversation in terms of being up there in the top tier quarterback with a Peyton and a Brady based off of how this is going. And I was going to give him a pass because he tore his Achilles. But then I had to remember that when the reason one of the reasons why Peyton came to Denver is because he was coming off of a seizing ending neck injury to where he had to change a lot of his game and just who he was as a player because he had a crazy injury and then he comes over to Denver, wins an MVP, sets records, it goes to Super Bowls and wins the AFC West four times. So how do people, I would love to know how you think about him just in that top tier quarterback category now. Yeah, that's a great point. Well, I would say this, from the outside looking in, I view him as a finger pointer and Brady and Peyton is not. Now, you know, I think I'm sure there are people who probably played with Peyton Manning who feel like he was too harsh and maybe did point the finger at times behind the scenes that I didn't see or, you know, obviously you heard some of the comments about how the building was when Brady was there with Tampa and now Baker's there and it's looser, but they won Super Bowls. So, you know, I think, I think this is an interesting dynamic about Rogers is it's very clear, it seems very clear that the Jets players like him while they're out there trotting out like some of the worst football in the league. So from the locker room, it doesn't come out that players dislike him or feel like he's not good enough or blame him for it. But I feel like what I see with my own eyes is in that upper echelon tier of quarterback conversation. If you're not a leader and you're not making the team better, and if everything coming out of your mouth is about how other people are failing the team, you can't be considered in the same echelon as a Manning and Brady whose presence literally elevated the team over the top. I don't know. Do you see it that way as well? Yeah, I just be curious to see what his leadership was like or, you know, just it doesn't look good. And it's super weird in terms of, you know, they fire hack it or, you know, demote him, fire Salah. And, you know, it's just, it's not great play. It's not, it's not sinking up the right way. It's just ugly football. So yeah, it's also from a football standpoint, Benny. And, you know, going from the locker room to the field here, you know, like Peyton obviously had to adjust his game significantly and you guys had a phenomenal defense and great players on that team that supported him. But he was smart enough to understand how the offense needed to run because of his limitations, how he had to play, how he could not play, right? So I think that's a good example too of, and Brady really, you could say this about his entire career, right? Great quarterback could throw the football well, all that. But his strength also was knowing how to manage games that could mean throwing to James White 100 times in the Super Bowl, right? You could mean whatever it took. And so that's from a football standpoint, that's my biggest concern why Rogers doesn't belong in that conversation with these guys watching this is because the jets for them to win early on this season, the recipe had to be to run the ball a lot, to play action off of it, to not be reckless with the football, to not put it all on Aaron Rodgers' shoulders and for him to compliment the rest of the offense and team and defense. And I feel like what I've seen is him trying to put it on his shoulders, it's the Aaron Rodgers Show. And so I feel like that shows either a lack of self-awareness or a disregard for what's best for the team because you just want to kind of flick it around. Yeah, it's unfortunate to see because he's one of the great talents, so it sucks. No, he really is. It's very interesting watching some of the plays and he did make, he did make one of these plays the other day where he escaped to the right side and then kind of threw backwards across the field at the left to a tight end who had blocked and then kind of slid out to the hash marks. That was a little bit of a glimpse of the old Aaron, but it's got to be very difficult for an older quarterback who's used to improvisation and a cannon arm being the way that you escape everything. Once you don't have those legs anymore, it's got to be especially difficult. No, that's a really good point by you in a conversation. Like we said earlier, just where we talked about debating why receiver U, LSU and Ohio State. If you have a thought or comment or question, you know, in relation to this manning Brady Rogers conversation that Benny just broached, drop it in the comments section. Get us started. If we, if we like your viewpoint or if your viewpoint sparks another conversation, maybe it'll show up on next week's edition of first down with Benny Fowler here on talking ball with Pat Leonard Benny. It's been fantastic as always looking forward to catching up with you in week 11. Appreciate you, Pat. That was another great episode of talking ball with Pat Leonard. First down with Benny Fowler week 10 edition. Remember, we are sponsored here by my bookie, which is rolling out the red carpet for sports betters this football season, including risk free Thursday bets and whatever you want. Props, underdogs, over-unders. We've got it here for you. Pat's picks coming down every week, including our giant sprinkles check in on those. But of course, the best deal going is Pat's picks, the promo code, use that promo code at the link in all my social media profiles, and you will get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Like I said, I predicted the Giants to be two and eight at the buy. They're two and eight at the buy. Stick with me and win this football season bet anything, any time, anywhere with my bookie. Also brought to you by boom chaga mushroom super drink and natural extract loaded with anti inflammatory immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. You can easily pour this natural liquid supplement into any of your favorite drinks. I put mine in my coffee every morning and immediately feel the difference. I personally felt a post workout like energy boost with boom. Chaga also has the ability to lower cholesterol, reduce inflammation and improve immune and heart health with its beta glucans and antioxidants. Go to boom chaga.com today to place your first order. And if you use the discount code talking ball 25 or access it through the QR code on your screen, you'll get 25% off your first subscribe and save order. Right now that means a month's supply costs you only $30. Start filling the difference today at boom chaga.com and brought to you by estate 98 coffee, a specialty coffee concentrate perfect for when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes me less than 10 seconds to make a delicious estate 98 iced or hot coffee. It's great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate 98 dot com backslash talking ball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. See you next time on talking ball with Pat Leonard. Hey everybody, I'm Trevor sick. I'm a host of the PFF NFL show here to tell you what you can find on all of our shows throughout the week on Mondays. We have the great release show where myself and Paul Washman break down every single game that you just saw in the NFL on Tuesdays. We have the quarterback breakdown with Seth Delina on Wednesdays. We've got the rookie review with John Ledyard and the preview for the upcoming week in the NFL. So make sure you are subscribed to the PFF NFL show wherever you get your podcast. Bingo. All right, Phil. We're recording now. So it's live. Go ahead. Pick on me the way that you want to. Did I say that? I would say that to my son. Man, I mean, come on, man. Just go. This isn't CBS. All right. Be quiet for a few seconds. Why would people want to listen to the Sims complete podcast? Well, a couple of things. One, if you like to see sons pick on their father, this might be the place. If you want to see a place where the father just kicks the **** out of his son, this would be the place. What do you like about it, Matt? Ditto. Father, son, dynamic duo talking about the game of football that we love and share and appreciate together. And, you know, hey, it's an extension of what we did, right? You know, we were all grown up. I was able to watch my father play football. Then obviously watch him as a broadcaster. And then he taught me the game of football and share the wisdom that he learned throughout his playing career. And, you know, hey, sometimes we're full of it. And sometimes we actually know a thing or two. Well, we do do a lot of research. At least I do. You're a little spotty, but you know, you're hanging in there. It's fun. I love doing this and it's been awesome. Sims complete. Check us out. Wherever your podcasts are available on the Believe network. I appreciate it. See you. If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening. [MUSIC]