"You know what really makes us mad, is wasting money on CDs with only one or two good songs." "Yeah, tell me about punk!" "What's up posers welcome to Punk Lotto Pod, I'm your host Justin Hanley." "I'm your other co-host Dylan Hanley." "And this is the show where you choose one year at random and select one punk, hardcore emo or punk adjacent album from that year to discuss." "Head over to patreon.com/punklottopod for $1 you get access to all of our weekly bonus audio." "And last week we did a news of the world where we talk about the news stories over the last month." "Moo, there's a big news story that we didn't really go too much in depth with because it's not music related so we said fuck it." "At least punk will be good again." "Oh, a thing they said four years ago or more than four years ago, a long time ago, eight years." "Yeah, got it. Anyway, we are recording this the day after the election in case you are detecting any particular weird moods coming from us." "Today's album artist, very fitting that we're doing this the day after the election though, I will say that." "Yeah, yeah, but yeah, all sorts of weekly bonus audio over there. There's other series out there as well, such as Challengeography where I'm working through the Joan Jit discography currently." "That should be the next thing I put out solo and then the Metal Core Chronicles as well, which is my look back at Metal Core chronologically." "And coming up in maybe the last week of this month and out of I think about it, I'm going to start doing my solo." "Best of 2024 audio focused on the best non-LPs or non-album of 2024, so your best splits, your best singles, your best comps, like that kind of stuff, so I'll start putting that out." "I think I'll put out my biggest disappointments of 2024 list first, because that's always a fun one to look at." "Stuff that I wanted to be good that I did not like, but so be on the lookout for that. And you could join at our $5 producer/listening club tier. This is where you get your name said on the show, alongside anything you would like to promote, as well as you're able to join in on a monthly video chat about a specific album. "We have not selected our album or date for November yet, but we should do that soon. And you could join at the $10 tier, where you get to choose the album we devote an entire episode to. So we just did one last week, and I think we have another one we're going to do later this month. But yeah, that's the main stuff we got going on here. So this week, we are looking at the year 1991. And as usual, we like to look at the other albums that were released that year, at least according to @rateyourmusic.com and their punk charts. And I guess the most important punk record of all time, or at least of 1991. Never mind by Nirvana, as much as you want to call it a punk record. Enough direct influence from punk to make this list. It's a rock record, but yeah, Nirvana being the most punk-influenced grunge band, you know, honorary punk. Followed by Spider-Land by Slint here on the charts. So again, barely punk, honestly. That's a post-rock record, the math rock record. I mean, yeah, those things come from, I mean, math rock comes from punk, post-art gore, you know. And in general, 1991 is a pretty strong year for punk adjacent music, because there's a slow dive record here. It's a big pixies, I mean, the last pixies record for, you know, it's the last pixies record I'll recognize. So you do not recognize all of the records they've released since then. They may have actually released more since reuniting than they have initially. Yeah, which now puts them in a challengeography realm for me. I could do the pixies' discography. But what I want to ban from the comeback onward is just like, let's log. Yeah, we have previously covered 1991 a couple times. Most recently was last December, so we almost went a full year. Peg Boy and their album Strong Reaction, prior to that. In episode 201, we did Integrity's Those Who Fear Tomorrow, which will get some overlapping coverage on my metalcore Chronicles. Not too in-depth on that one. But in episode 169, we did the Reverend Horton Heat, Smoke 'em If You Got 'em. In episode 117, we did Leather Face's Mush, and then way back in episode 29, we did One Bad Pig Ice Cream Sunday and Life Time's Dwell 7-inch. So, classic. Yeah, yes, the One Bad Pig episode is, in my memory, was very fun to do. Yeah, so there's, you know, '91, I would think is kind of a, it's an era of like, like I said, punk-a-jason stuff. There's a lot of that stuff. There's a lot of, like, I mean, you definitely mentioned some very straightforward punk records that are really good. It's a good, pretty good year for post-hardcore. It's definitely early in post-hardcore as a genre, properly. This is what third Fugazi LP, Steady Diet of Nothing, Drive Like J Who's self-titled record, the first album we've got. So, no means no record. I don't know, no means no well enough to know which is the wrong, I think, is the more iconic record, the '89 record. But O plus two equals one is, that's pretty well regarded. Here's one that I, what does the opinion do you think of Nation of Ulysses now? Ian Spannonius got into some trouble with some accusations? He canceled himself, didn't he? I know, I copped to it, I think. Yeah, he was... Yeah, he made like a weird kind of... He made like a post talking about a lot of men who made bad decisions and I'm one of them and... Yeah, he kind of like, I think he basically just told on himself. Because I don't think anybody was actually coming for him from what I remember at the time. Yeah, I don't remember any accusations, I think he just like confessed. Ian Spannonius publishes and deletes post about being completely inappropriate to women. I want to use this form to say that I support people speaking out the eradication of abusive predatory modes and also that I am absolutely, absolutely one of the guilty parties. And then yeah, he deleted that statement. Merge records cut ties with him. Yeah. After that. Yeah, it's one of those weird ones that's like the legacy of Nation of Ulysses probably surpasses Ian. Yeah. As an individual. And the band also, you know, it's more than just Ian. Right. Yeah, it's a weird one because it's also like we never heard anyone come out and say anything against him as far as I remember. Yeah. And like the things he says there, like it's not very specific. Like yeah, like what does he mean by that? Like yeah, did he act upon something that he's like kind of admitting to there? Or is he more just talking like in general? I don't know. It's a weird one. I don't know how people feel about them anymore. I don't, I feel like they don't get talked about like they used to. I don't know how much of that is because of him saying that. Or if it's because of him generally. Yeah. Because he's definitely has had like a kind of a rock starish career. I don't know. Or if it's just like people have just softened on their opinion of that band. It's certainly not the most relevant, you know, sound and influence. But you know, yeah, because I guess, I guess, refused stealing the nation of Ulysses shtick and then becoming more legendary with it. It's kind of like, well, if I want that, I'll just go to refused. It's less weird. Refused stealing so much. Well, we're talking about today. One of the records we're talking about today. Yeah, that's going to say. We'll talk about that later. Refused, we'll come up again. But I don't know. It's just nation of Ulysses. I felt like it's an important record and I didn't want to like not mention it. And I wanted to talk about it because I think it's like it is one of those weird awkward records of like, I don't know how we feel about this. It's really important. Yeah. But I also was not compelled to revisit it very often prior to him prior to 2020. So, you know, it wasn't something I was listening to a ton of. Well, we could do the albums that I almost selected. Yeah. So, I feel like this one has been up for a possibility multiple times now. And that is Ned's atomic dust band Godfather. We definitely have talked about wanting to do it, wanting to cover this album. And we've even been encouraged by other people that we should cover this album. It is a good record. I really do like this album quite a bit. And I guess it's probably, I mean, out of the options that I sent you, it might have been the other one that I was the most interested in talking about. I think even you said either this one or the one we're actually talking about whenever I sent you the options. Yeah, we should, we should just do it one day. But yeah, maybe get somebody on here with us to talk about it too. Yeah, that's the biggest thing holding me back from doing that. Ned's atomic dust, but dust band record is they were banned that I never heard of until like 2018, 2019. So I'm just like, I can't properly gauge their importance. Yeah, they're really important to certain people. Yeah, it's a very specific time period too, that they were very, very important. Yeah, they're one of those bands too that like I always lumped in with other bands with like really long names too, that I just didn't know what they were for the longest time. Like I put them in with like John Spencer Blues explosion and you know, they don't sound the same at all, but I don't know. Something about their name was kind of like, that name also makes me think of like Chicago noise rock too. Like, I don't know, I didn't know where that went, and it's really more in like the baggie, Grebo UK alternative rock scene from the late 80s, early 90s. It's a great record. I really do enjoy that album, but yeah, it is an interesting one. Also up for discussing was despised by seaweed and there are a lot of seaweed records. We covered four on the show a long time ago, and I guess if you're looking at all of the seaweed albums, this is the first like full length, and it might be the album like one of the albums I go to the least from seaweed. Yeah, I tend to go to span away the most, and then four, and I guess I'm kind of split on if I help and I go to despised and weak, but yeah, not it's not one of the records I go to that many times. I guess if we were going to seaweed again, I would like to do span away the most out of the other records, but even then I'd be really interested in talking about actions and indications as well too, whichever leaves an album you almost selected once. Yeah, we've talked I don't know seaweed is a weird band to talk about because if we did that episode, I feel like we just we kind of gave as much of the seaweed story as there is a story. Seaweed just are a band that was around, and they were really good, and then they stopped being around. I don't know, I feel like there wasn't, and they really, because they don't really have any other bands that are like, have you forgotten talked about the Spartan Records band? They don't even have the related artists page open for that. What was that? I got let me pull up my albums of 2024. They put out a record this year. It's Ghostwork, Ghostwork, the Spartan Records band. It's friendly by the lead singer seaweed, and it's like all those Spartan Records bands. It's former 90s and 2000s emo-y related music doing new, slower versions of their old sound. That's the entire Spartan Records, this guy, discography, currently. But you're right, Aaron Stauffer, AKA spook in the zombies, whatever that is. Like I know they were in other bands, but it's nobody that important. Yeah, like blue dot, blue dot, and gardener are not that important. Seaweed is the important band. Alan Cage was in burn before seaweed, before he was in seaweed, as he's the replacement drummer. He's in quicksand, too. He's the drummer for quicksand. Yeah, I don't think I knew that. Yeah, they were just like the sub-pop band who was kind of a punk band, like that was kind of their thing. And then they get on Hollywood records of all record labels. But yeah, I mean, I would, I would, I'd say we hit span away at some point. But yeah. Another option was the pillars of humanity by the crucified. This is Mark Salomon of later the of Stazaker fame, which he's probably more known for Stazaker now than the crucified. But there are people who just only cared about the crucified they don't care about. I don't know. That's a weird one. I don't know what the, what the current legacy of Christian bands. I feel like he's probably just as well known for being in the crucified as Stazaker now. Yeah, I guess Stazaker has done things more recently. Yeah, the crucified never, they never did anything else, I don't think. I don't think they ever got back together for anything. They never did any reunion shows. They did like a big old, you know, reissue of their entire catalog. But I don't think they did any shows. If they did, they did like one. And it was around that time period. Yeah. This is supposedly their best record. Though the stuff titled from 89 is also pretty well regarded too. I mean, it's it's crossover. Thresh is really what it is. Out of my options to choose from, that was the one I was maybe the least interested in. I do like the crucified, but they're not it's far from my favorite project that Mark Salomon has been involved with. Have we done something by the crucified? No, we didn't do an EP or anything. Nope, we've never covered them. Yeah, I mean, the crucified is a band that I would like to do at some point. I'm not sure if that's the one. I'm not sure what the one is. I think that's the one. Is that the one? It's the highest rated and their most rated. I mean, it's only 105 ratings. Yeah, but that's the one to do. I just think of the of the self titled album cover. Yeah, when I think of their records, my last option was batch by big drill car. Very good band. I like this band a lot. I just haven't quite pulled the trigger on this band. It's not my favorite album by them, but I think this is another one that I had, like, earmarked in the past to be covered on the show before tears. So I think album type thing is considered the better record, but yeah, they're good band. Skate punk, I guess, melodic hardcore sort of thing. If it was your turn to select this week's album, what would you consider? Well, there's no Pocky for Kitty by Superchunk. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big one. That's a pretty big one. That's one I would very seriously consider might be where I go. If we want to get outside of punk a little more, maybe we would consider that Uncle Tupelo record, but it's also not the one to do, I guess. So maybe not. I really like that Jawbox record grip, but I wish there was a little more to say about that record specifically. Yeah, it's not the one I would go to with them. It's a good record, but yeah, it's not even the one I listen to as often. I don't know. That's all that's about it. There's not a lot that's really jumping out of me. If you're old, the movies by shutter to think is probably one I would have screenshot it and sent to you, but I don't know that I would pick it. I think I would have picked the record that we're doing, honestly. Yeah, that's a pretty high likelihood that what we were talking about would have been selected by you too. So yeah, I guess it's when I would have considered for sure. So yeah, that's probably where I would have landed. Yeah, before we get into the album, I want to shout out our producers. So thank you to Philips Booker. I mistakenly called you Brooks Phillips last week on the episode. So apologies for that. Making up guys. Yeah. Philips Booker, thank you so much. Sorry, I said your name wrong. Thanks to Brooks Whelan. Yeah. Thank you to Steve Long, host of the podcast Rebel Rock Radio. Thank you to Dave Brown, host of the podcast One Band, Five Songs. And thank you to Jason W, host of the podcast. A thousand plays are less, as well as the writer of the newsletter, Songs About Chocolate and Girls. So thank you all producers so much. And well, let's get into it. So it was my turn to select the album. And I chose nine patriotic hymns for children by the band Born Against. [Music] [Music] And some stats on the band from New York City. They formed in 1989. This was released on Vermaform Records in 1991. I could not find a month at all with this record when it came out. And the personnel on this record is John Hinkley Hilt's Squatch on Clumps and Hygiene, aka John Hilt's on drums, Adam Payson on device and image, aka Adam Nathanson on guitars, Harv on mud and rapport and backing vocals, aka Javier the Egas on bass, and Sam Tate Labianca on Screaming Head and Procurements, aka Sam McFeaters on vocals. This band did the classic joke names for their liner notes on this record. Yeah, I guess it's as far as previous information really about this record. Information about this album is very light. It is very difficult to find much about them. There's lots of interviews with them and they're really long interviews, but those interviews don't tend to go into like their background and like the beginnings of the band. So kind of tough to kind of get some of that information out. But I got a little bit on their backstory too. But I guess first things first, what is your experience with the band Born Against? I've listened to them a little bit. I want to say, trying to think of the first time I heard Born Against 10 years ago. All right. And I'm not sure what would have prompted me to listen to them. I truly don't know where Born Against came into my life. Yeah, I was trying to think of that myself. I was like, where did I start listening to Born Against first? And I definitely remember seeing the album cover to this, or at least the collected version later. I would have heard their name referenced a lot. And they would have been a band. I don't know when I would have listened to them for the first time either. They didn't become one of my bands. In a sense, they got a lot of play for me, a lot of rotation for me. I think the most I might have listened to them as far as digging into them in some sort of way was when I did that series on, I did like this article in our old blog where I did like, was it 25 turning 25? I think it's what it was. It was like 25 albums from the year 1990 that were turning 25 years old. And they had like a Born Against seven inch that came out that year. And that would have been the thing I would have listened to from that year. And I probably just would have heard everything gradually over time. They're definitely a band that I've heard everything they put out. They make it very easy because there's just two compilations that get everything. So they're an easy band to go through their whole discography. And they're just one of those bands that like I know the name, I listened to them a few times. I like them. I think they're a great band. And yeah, they just don't have a huge personal attachment for myself. What is the, I guess, since we don't have much of a personal connection to it, what is the perception of this band that you had? Like what do you think people think of them in general? Hmm. I don't think I have encountered very many people talk about them. I think that they have, well, this is, I mean, this is confirmed, but kind of the reputation that they had in my head prior to listening to the record for this episode was that they were prickly. They were difficult. They were controversial, I guess. And I guess I associated them in that way with like indecision, you know, also being a New York band. You know, and kind of having like seeing beef and things like that of people being like, you know, like the big thing within decision people being like, oh, they cancel shows and, you know, I've just, I've generally, I've generally been under the impression that they are well liked. Like, I feel like most people who have heard them like them, but definitely that they were really intense band. That's, that's the biggest thing for me. Going into this record, I was, I knew what they sounded like. And I was just like, I, I know this is like a really intense kind of hardcore. But their importance and they're like, I guess I don't put them. They're definitely not in like the household name level of hardcore bands. I guess I feel like they're maybe in like a swiz kind of category of where like people who are into them are really into them, but not a lot of people are. They get overlooked a lot. Yeah, I was, yeah, my, my thought on them is that they are just a band with an influence, but not necessarily like the most influential band in the sense like a wide, wide net of bands who were inspired by them. I think a lot of like really political hardcore and punk from the 90s might have been inspired by them. They're extremely political band. You're right, very, very controversial band. They definitely got into it with numerous members of their local scene. But yeah, it's, it's contentious. Yeah, yeah, they're, yeah, I don't know, I don't know exactly what what people think of born against these days. All I know is that anyone I ever hear talk about born against says they're cool and they're good. Like that's really the only they're just generally well regarded for, you know, their music. And I hear a lot of similarities with stuff that's happening around this time period. Because I mean, I guess if we, if we talk about 1991 hardcore, like what is it? What is 1991 hardcore? Post hardcore. One of the stuff we've mentioned integrity. Yeah, integrity would be kind of a comp like born against not a metal core band, but there's things that they do that a lot of the metal core bands at the exact same time were doing. Most notably Rorschach, which were also on verma form records, sheer terror. Yeah, we still got like, we still have crossover. We still have New York hardcore. There's leeway doing stuff at this time, crust, DB kind of stuff going on too. Yeah, we've got a little like power violence stuff. I mean, like there's man is the bastard, which they have ties to. They just split with born against at one point. There's infest is doing stuff around this time period. There's a sick of it all record. Yeah, there's an anti scene record. Not a big year for hardcore. No, not a huge year, no. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Well, let's do a little bit of backstory that I do have to discuss. So Adam Nathanson, he played in a band called Life's Blood prior to Born Against. And this band also featured their original bassist, Neil Burke. That band's vocalists wind up quitting the group. And so then they try out other members. They bring in some people, they wind up bringing in Sam McPheeters and a drummer and then they wind up changing the name to Born Against. So basically Life's Blood turns into Born Against with the addition of Sam on vocals. They release their demo. My country Tiz of the Enemy of All Tribes as a self-release cassette in 1989. And then bassist Neil Burke winds up leaving the band and they bring in Javier Villegas for their self-titled EP. And they bring in drummer John Hiltz to replace drummer Darryl Kahan. They had like four drummers before they get, they get to John Hiltz. And then they release a self-titled seven inch and the Ulogy seven inch in 1990. And they do a split with another band called Sucker Punch in 1991. And this version of the band is the longest running one. They are not a very long running band. They started in '89, they break up in like '93. So it's a really short window. But yeah, this particular lineup of the band, their port of this LP is the most well-known version of the band and longest running. With Sam McFeaters and John Nithysen, or Adam Nithysen being the only permanent members of the group. And yeah, they were known for being extremely political and for calling out their fellow artists in the New York hardcore scene. They famously debated Sick of it All on a radio show regarding Sick of it All's record level in effect, self-sensoring to get their records into malls. So I did read an interview with them and they were talking quite extensively about like getting into it with the label and 'cause the label decided to censor the word shit in the music, just to get Sick of it All in the mall. Like I don't know, I guess in 1991 or '90, early, early '90s, the big box store wasn't the like go-to place to get music. You still went to the mall, to record stores in the mall to get your music. It's not drastically different from like bands, putting out or labels, putting out like censored versions that you could get at Walmart, you know? But I guess the idea was that they were like, why are you trying to censor yourselves? Like it's different, I guess, if somebody else is trying to censor you, but then like being okay with the label, trying to censor you, it was like a big sticking point with the band. - Yeah, I read that interview and it's a good interview. It definitely lays out, yeah. There's some really good parts of that interview that I enjoyed, I think are interesting. But they kind of like, I guess like why they took it so seriously, like their mentality of just being like, they definitely go into more of like, you're trying to infiltrate the mainstream to try to tear it down instead of creating a system outside of it that opposes it, you know? And just like, hardcore and DIY should be its own scene that doesn't have to change itself to fit within the rules of mainstream media, you know? Because you're not gonna change that system. If you're changing yourself to fit it. And just like, why are you compromising your message to sell more records? Like they talk about, yeah, I think one of the quotes I think is really funny is, you're born into the society in some sort of way and you're sort of obligated to at least function or live in society. Nobody, but nobody forces you to join a hardcore band or put out a record. So you may as well do it, but well, you're gonna do it. And people saying like, oh, you should be a bunch of fucking hermits and move to the woods. It's like, if we all moved to the woods, there'd be no more woods and we wouldn't be hermits. And we would all build a city in the woods. Yeah, so they're, and they talk a lot in that article about just like the calling out other bands. And they're just like, these are, we're friends with these people. Like there's not, the beef isn't that serious. But like people definitely take it. Some people would get mad and it's just like, but there's other people that we've talked to and like, you know, we're not saying anything we wouldn't say to them directly, you know. Yeah, they also like flired outside of shelter shows and printed zine, printed stuff on it like fuck religion. And then making comparisons to the Christian logo and the swastika. So they were like, they were coming for Krishna band which is very funny to me. I guess it's a very militant atheist approach to then also be going after Krishna core bands, but yeah. I mean, I think shelter could stand to be taken down a peg or two. They put out so much junk in their discovery. Yeah, so they're definitely, they will call out people in their scene for things that they do, which is cool. I mean, it's good to have that kind of thing. I guess it just does make you a little bit more, a little less likable to the people that you're in the scene with. Yeah, but I definitely identified with some of the stuff that, you know, calling out people in their scene for. I think that may have partly been, we weren't buddy buddy with a lot of bands in our local scene and we were pretty critical. A lot of them, I don't know that we publicized a lot of that, but or if they just like kind of came out of us naturally, people could just tell we're not fans of you. But yeah, I get a little bit of that there. (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) This record itself, what did you think of it? I loved it. I never heard it before and I was like, that's a great record. Like I knew it was a great record going into it. I was like, I know I'm going to really enjoy listening to this record, but it's been a little while. And like I said, it never really went that deep with born against, it just kind of like heard their stuff. I was like, they're a good band. And every time I've heard them, I'm like, they're a good band. But they didn't, I don't know, they never got to a point of like a really regular listening habit for me. But like, I listened to this record. I was like, I got to the end of the record. I mean, and the whole time, I'm just like, hell yeah. I'm just like, sounds so cool. Like the Volo sound awesome. The guitars sound awesome. They're like noisy and there's these grooving riffs and there's just so many cool ideas. And like, we can get into more of like what, there were a lot of connections that I took away from this record. But I got to the end of it. I'm like, I'm on the last track and I'm like, I'm going to double check the, well, I was going to double 'cause I knew it was like, collected, it has, this is, the version that's on Spotify has both LDs in one release. But I, so I was like, double checking the track listing. I was like, well, where is the actual ending of this record? And going, I was going to rate it. And I like, I thumb kind of like slid too far. Like, so it like, my thumb on the star rating thing on on right ear music, it went all the way to five. And I was like, like kind of hovered there. And I was like, let me, let me try to bring this down to four and a half. And I'm listening, I'm listening to "Wellfed Fuck," the last song. And I'm just like, hovered on that five. And I'm like, no, actually, you know what, five stars. Wow, like, I was going to give it a four and a half. It's like, me as well, go all the way. Because the whole time I was thinking about it, it's like all these different little connections and influences to like other bands. And I was just like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know that this band actually gets proper due. Yeah, I wonder if that boils down to their sound. So when I put this record on, it'd been a long time since I listened to "Born Against." And when I put it on, I was surprised, I guess I was more reminded that they're not as fast as my brain thought they were. For some reason in my brain, I put them in there with like a band like "Invest," who's like a really fast band. And how I was thinking that "Born Against" is like a big influence on stuff like ceremony and dangers, that kind of stuff. But like, relistening to it, I was like, wait, they're not that fast. They're like kind of sludgy, they're mostly mid-tempo, even their fast songs aren't particularly fast. Like in my brain, they're faster than they actually are. So I was a little taken aback, I was like, oh, that's interesting. That is slower than I remembered this record being. And which I think the next record is a little faster, maybe. And maybe that's what I was thinking of. It's a little faster, it's a little cleaner and tighter. Yeah, so that was definitely like putting it on. I was like, oh, oh, okay. So it's a little messier than I remembered. It really, really reminds me of Worschach. Worschach, we're also on Vermaform Records, which Sam owns an operated Vermaform. And after doing like the Rorschach LP on the medical chronicles, that was really fresh into my mind, like the style, the type of music they're playing, which when you think about like what does born against and Rorschach sound like compared to sick of it all and, you know, shelter, they don't sound the same at all. Like they're definitely more, there's more edge, I think, to born against than say sick of it all. Like I was surprised by that. But so yeah, I thought of them more as a faster band, but they're definitely like slower and noisier. And it makes sense because Vermaform that same year also released the Rorschach EP for another prior year, they really remained sedate. There isn't, I think there's a seven inch in '91 as well, but they also had done some econichrist and they did Men is the bastard, they put out some heroin and Moss icon later. But listening to this, I was like, oh, they kind of reminded me of our My War episode and the, you know, how people were like, My War was such an influential record on so many bands going forward. And you know, we couldn't come up with like great examples of like hardcore bands doing it. I listened to this and I hear the My War influence. Yeah, I guess I hear more slip it in in general. - Yeah. - On this record, it's the, it's generally the post, what, lawsuit, the post lawsuit era. - Yeah, Black Flag, My War and On, yeah, Black Flag. That was the, that was like the first thing, Mount the pavement, like the first song, I was like walking out of work listening to that song to my car and I'm like, oh, this is My War. This is if My War was good. (laughing) - Yeah, 'cause once I like got my bearings and figured out like what the whole record is going to sound like, like I, that's when I get into like the enjoyment of it. Like that's when I'm like, man, this record is so good. It's so good in the same way that like Rorschach is good, you know, that, that style of, - Yeah, I'm messy, messy and noisy and riffy. There's, but there's moments of kind of emo core from this time period. There's some kind of melodic stuff, melodic-ish stuff that I felt like it's a, it's a similar kind of riffing guitar playing, which makes sense with like the Moss icon connection later, just that that's the kind of stuff they were also listening to. You kind of have to just like, intuit what the influences are because I don't know that born against just really ever like directly cited, you know, influences. I didn't come across any. - Listen to this. I also thought of like some of the Sarah Kirsch bands too. - Yeah. - Like the post fuel Sarah Kirsch bands. Like I definitely thought of Saw Horse and John Henry West. - Yeah. - And I saw they played like a bunch of shows with John Henry West 'cause there's a, one of the sites has like all of their tour dates and who they played with like on every show. They toured with Worschach extensively in like '91, '92. They did a bunch of shows with John Henry West. That, and I hear some, in the torches to roll, I hear a little bit of it too. The same sort of sound. - Yeah. - It makes me wonder if born against is a big, if they were a big driving force for Sarah's bands going forward to be more hardcore and faster and less of that fuel groove. - Yeah, 'cause that like Saw Horse is real noisy. And so John Henry West like very much noisy bands. I guess the Saw Horse was called the skin flutes before skin flutes have a seven inch from 1990. - Okay. - But they sound different between the skin flutes and Saw Horse. Like the skin flutes were closer to fuel than Saw Horse is. Saw Horse is definitely noisier 'cause the first Saw Horse seven inch, the only seven inch comes out in '92. So it's like the next year. And when is John Henry West? John Henry West put out their first seven inch in '93. - They were definitely playing with born against before '93. So yeah, John Henry West is very much a continuation of that same sound of Saw Horse. But yeah, I do wonder, the fact they played together, there's a lot of like political similarities between like Sarah Kirsch's lyrics and what born against is doing lyrically. - Yeah. And I mean, well, like heroin was around prior. Or not rocket from the crypt. Well, there is a rocket from the crypt record in '91, but it's not the big one. But that drive like Jakey record and Pitchfork had been a band prior to that. So I think a lot of that like West Coast San Diego and like noisy post-hard core stuff and like the emo core stuff, it's like, it definitely makes sense where Sarah Kirsch would go with her bands, but it does feel, yeah, like you said, the political like the like unapologetically kind of annoyingly leftist. - Yeah, bent of the lyrics. Yeah, they fit very close together. That was definitely one take away. I was like, oh yeah, this is a big, this is the same spirit. If it's not a direct influence, you know, but yeah, them having a connection completely makes sense. And then the man is the bastard connection makes sense too, 'cause like man is the bastard or you know, consider one of the first big power violence bands. But one of the things of power violence is like the slower sludgeier stuff. And I definitely hear some similarities to what's happening here and like those slower songs, which they wanted when it split with them later. So yeah, they sensed some sort of camaraderie and some similarities there too. Honestly, to me, thinking about them as a New York band is weird. Like they don't feel like a New York hardcore band to me. Well, no, well, they do, but only in the sense of the Rorschach connection and then dead guy, you know, later. Which, to be fair, they're from New Jersey, Jersey City is where Rorschach was from. But still playing the same scene. Yeah, yeah, definitely playing shows together, so. Yeah, yeah, 'cause I think of, I was thinking of dead guy too. I was like, yeah, yeah, there's definitely some similarities there in what dead guy are doing and what born against are doing. It's like a little bit more just a little punkier version, I guess of that kind of sound. But I know that they were respected each other and Sam put those Rorschach records out. So he was a fan of Rorschach. So yeah, there's a lot of commonality there in the way that they play, you know, and they write. I wanna say, and this is probably where the motivation for me to first check out born against would have been, but I wanna say Frodis might have cited them as a reference and influence. Like, I can definitely hear it. It feels like there's an influence. I can really hear the similarities of some of these riffs to other like commonwealth bands, like Fleetie Time Trio, Maximilian Colby, and you know, definitely similarities as a shot maker. Huge similarities between Sam's vocals and the guy, I can't remember his name from Circus Lupus, and that was bugging me the whole time I was listening to the record, I was like, man, I was like, okay, Black Flag, Dead Guy, some Kirch bands, definitely Frodis, definitely Max Colby, I'm like, there's someone else, there's someone really specific, and it's like really heavily influenced by the vocal phrasing, and it was just, it was driving me crazy, and I was like, probably like halfway through the second LP, 'cause I ended up listening to the whole thing, 'cause it's 45 minutes long, which probably lends to why you feel like they're a way faster band, 'cause the records are so short. - Yeah, yeah, this album is nine tracks, and it is like 22 minutes on its own. - Yeah. - But yeah, you can listen to both LPs, and it's under 50 minutes, like a 46 minute. - Yeah. - But it finally clicked, it was like, oh my God, Circus Lupus, like exactly, and like, wow. And then, but then like, I can take it, like you said, I mean, you mentioned like ceremony and dangers, like I'm sure they've cited this as an influence, and like, I definitely get the impression that, you know, that "Pain It Black" are born against listeners, both in like sound and intensity and like uncompromising political lyrics. - Yeah, I was trying to think of like lyrically who would have been, you know, or at least, you know, similar to what born against we're doing, and like looking at who these, you know, who released records the same year. I don't know. I mean, is "infest" like a pretty political man? Like, I don't really even know too much exactly what "infest lyrically" is even about, but they could be, they possibly are, but especially based on like some of the artwork that they definitely utilized. - Yeah, I mean, I get the impression that "infest" are generally political, not super specific. - Yeah. - But I don't think born against are super specific either. I mean, in the sense they're not like the dead Kennedys, like in like naming specific, you know, politicians, but reading the lyrics of this record, there's definitely songs on it where I'm like, I'm not exactly sure what they're referring to here. There's like one, and specifically, it was like nine years ago, let's see if I can find it. Let's say, is it shroud maybe? - Nine years later? - Oh, the song "9 Years Later", yeah, yeah. - Nine years for the future, we're still counting the dead and dying. Titan State Terror, 100,000 executed by disease of a prosperity with millions living on the streets. And I gotta wonder, what the fuck is it going to take? Can it be undone? Can we stem the tide of violence? Are we gonna sit back, relax, and watch TV? Well, they have not, get their heads kicked in and counting the policies that failed. And the lies that worked and worked, we swallowed them down. Yeah, I don't know what this is specifically referring to. I don't know what happened nine years prior to 1991. What would that have been, '82? I don't know. - Sounds like Post Reagan. Yeah, maybe that's what they're talking about. - Politics and policies and talking about the have nots. - Oh, '82 was the year of Reagan, his first term. So yeah, maybe it's a Reagan song. Maybe it's a, Reagan's first term started in '81, 'cause Reagan won the 1980 election election. - Oh, the election election. - A middle of Reagan's first term. - Yeah, so I don't know, I don't know what happened. What this is specifically referring to. Yeah, interesting, don't know, exactly. I mean, I guess it's talking about homelessness there. Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what that one's about. That's what a couple of these songs are like. It's like, what is that about, you know? There is an inward on the record. In classic, you know, political, lefty, like, you know, intention is good, but maybe you're not the ones to use the word type of thing. 'Cause it's the song, it's in the song test pattern. And there's a line that's, this is the tits and the ass. So relax, kick back, get comfortable and suck. And suck comes in three flavors. You might wanna try new grape. The fight's not on till 10, but it's gonna be good. Two, gonna be each other raw. The new season's just starting and we're sure you'll agree. It's gonna be best one yet. So it's called test pattern. This is a Harker song about TV. - Yeah. - In the classic genre of Harker songs about TV. It's a whole thing, you know, it's clearly a lyrics from a character perspective point of view. Probably another case of, probably wouldn't do that today, but they even have the inward in the liner notes of their next record, the battle hymns of the race wars. They're, they gave themselves all names, Nick names on that record. And to give you an idea of like the type of names we're dealing with, I'm trying to find the liner, liner notes that actually do have the rough nicknames there. I don't know why I can't find it. But anyway, the album was about a race war and they gave themselves all nicknames that racists would have used. - Right. - So that's what they're, I don't know why I can't find them, but yeah, they're pretty shocking to me. We're like, ooh, God. But Keith Huckens of dead guy produced their second record. Battle hymns of the race war. So yeah, definitely a connection there. So yeah, it's one of those lyrics. It's just like, I know what you're going for, but maybe we don't use those now, but I did read the lyrics to Mary and Child and that song hits very, very, very hard today as we're recording this, 'cause it's an abortion song. So yeah, there's a specific line in there that's just like, oh my God. Once again, the battlefield is your body and those who want control have laid down their terms of black and white and red all over. They keep the backstreet butchers in business as advertised from a bullhorn and the all-knowing man has set up his make-believe graveyard with tiny white crosses for millions of make-believe souls someday. I'd like to see a cross set up for a real life human being who bled the death to maintain the sanctity of Mary and Child. Scream the, Mary and Child scream the bigots who couldn't care less about human life, obey their self-righteous lives while your sisters and daughters die, all decisions are your final, your body is forbidden. Yeah, very prevalent today. Still, 1991, yeah, 30, three years later, but, and then like Jock-a-Stoppo is like about Jocks. Like, very dead Kennedys, Jock-o-rama, you know. There's an atheism song, "Workin' of Hope" and, well fed fuck is, are you a good team player? Remember the boss is your best friend, kill your head. This is the only lyrics to that song. It's a little anti-campless there, but yeah, very political band. Yeah. There was an interesting story that I read that was like the band was on tour and they went and played a show. And so, okay, no, this is an article. It was in the "Riverfront Times" and is an article on the Ozark punk scene at the time. And the story starts off with "Born Against" showing up for a show. They get to the venue and everyone has been run off. The only people left there are Nazis. So Adam Nathanson has a smash racism patch on his sleeve and he like goes to go in to the club or the house on my shirt, exactly what it was. And the Nazis sees the patch on his arm and he's like, oh, smash, smash racism. Well, I am the racist. What are you gonna do now? And like, so then they just, they leave. They wind up leaving. And they go to this house that the show is supposedly has been moved to. But by the time they get there, the Nazis had actually beaten them to the house. So my guess is they took some time trying to figure out where to go. And in that time, they also figured out that's where the show had moved to. So the Nazis had beaten them to the place and laid out everybody who was at the house. Like everybody's like laying on the front lawn 'cause they've been like beat up by the Nazis. And they're there. And then while they're there, some sharp skin heads show up. You know, the anti-racist Nazis, they show up with like a shitload of weapons. And so then the Nazis all start fighting the skin heads. And it's just like this huge bloody fight where the show was supposed to be. And like, this is just an article on Ozark punks. And it's just like, this is a really weird way to start your article. One, you're talking about with born against who are a New York band. But I guess it's to give you an idea of like what some of the scene politics was in the Ozarks at the time. But yeah, very wild scene there. Yeah, to me, the standout tracks on the record. I like "By the Throat" a lot. I like "Nine Years Later." "Test patterns" is like a faster song. I do like "Wolfed Fuck." It's a slower kind of like plotting song, but I do really enjoy that one. - It's such a good album ender. - Oh yeah. And both of their records have such great endings too. Like, the "Battle Hems of the Rice War" and the sound clip at the end of that record and listening to bands like "Born Against." (laughing) Yeah, the end of that record ends with a song that's like, it's mainly just like a guitar part and then audio clips from Donahue where he had polygamists on his show. And it's just all, you know, talking about, you know, polygamy really is really what the clips are. It's just a bunch of ridiculous clips. And then at the very end of the clip, they take a phone call from a caller and it's like, it's Sam. It's Sam McFeeders calling in and talking about how he's a polygamist and it's led to awful things and pretty awful things and then he says there, but like being doing drugs. - It's ruined my life. - Yeah, and how it ruined his life and then he started listening to hardcore bands like "Born Against." And then they figured out what it was and they hung up on him. But very funny that he got the call in on, "Man, Donahue, Donahue and Punx." There's so many connections. That's like, that's the show that Jello did, right? He did that show with "Tipper Gore." What was it, Oprah? They did that. - Wasn't Donahue, I can't remember now, but it might have been something else. But there's, yeah, there's some... No, I think, yeah, he was on Donahue. Yeah, he was. - Okay, yeah. - Yeah, so a lot of experience with Punx on Donahue. There was another one. We talked to him not that long ago too, but yeah. It was with Mike, your, and Jello be offered to be the vicinity. - Yeah. - Wendy, Wendy O was on that one too. - Oh, what's the other Donahue, funny Donahue clips? - No, there was like, there was like, what's the wrestling one? They had Vince McMahon on. - Oh, yeah, then '92. - They did a New York hardcore. They had like "Jijimika Stoppo" on an episode of Donahue. Yeah, a lot of punks on Donahue. So they go on tour with Worschach in '91, and they played in Winston-Salem and Charlotte on that tour, which is very funny. Then Javier would wind up leaving before they released their next LP, Battle Hems of the Race War, which came out in 1993. John Hiltz plays drums on half of that record, and he's replaced by Melissa York. They break up in 1993, and then they collect this album and the Battle Hems of the Race War as patriotic battle hymns on CD in 1994, and that is the version that is on Spotify, the nine patriotic battle hymns for children. And members would go on to do other stuff. John Hiltz played a band called Computer Cougar and another band called Grey House, but he also recorded with the band Ruination, which I could see Ruination being inspired by Born Against. - Yeah. - Nathan's been played in the band Young Pioneers. If you know anything about that band, the band with Prit the Seas Young Pioneers. - Yeah, kind of like a precursor to a lot of like heartland punk stuff, like very replacement score style. Javier wound up playing in the band's Cattle Press and Kailessa, and then Sam goes on the play in Men's Recovery Project, and he becomes a writer, a writer for Vice, and he's like published his own books. And yeah, he's a pretty, he's actually like pretty well-known for his writing. Like probably he's probably more well-known for his writing than he is for being at Born Against. He has a couple of novels, and yeah, just a lot of published writing. - I found a blog post that was titled, "Where Are They Now?" Sam McFeeders. He says, "I went broke and moved to Richmond in '93. "The city hauled off the Born Against Band "for unpaid parking tickets. "Lived in an office building, clocked tens of dollars "as the lead singer of Men's Recovery Project, "worked at Gloria Jean's Coffee for three bad days, "later worked at a health food place, "and then another health food place, "and then a commercial painting company. "Lived in Rhode Island, owned a '93 Pulsar, "moved to California and got married, "crashed my record company into an oak tree, "worked at borders for three weeks, "worked at another commercial painting place, "got high cholesterol, "got rejected for a paying job at OC Weekly twice, "voted for Obama, "just reprinted by old zine." - Yeah, it's a really good record. It's listening to it. I was like, man, this is the week to listen to this record and talk about this album because, you know, rough week, and even after, 'cause we listened to it before the election and then we thought later, like, oh, that's fitting that we chose this record for this week, and then came even more fitting today. But it's just a really good record. It's really cool sounding. It's so low budget. Like, you can hear their equipment buzzing in multiple places on this record, just like super low budget recording. I never, I didn't see anybody who was listed as a producer on this record. I think they just did it themselves. I guess I could check to see if there is a engineer or anything on this record. Yeah, it says a record at Wharton Studios, does not say who recorded it. So probably just the band. Recorded in Wharton Tears, Basement Facilities, New York City, the last week of March, 1991. So Wharton Tears is the, okay, he owns the studio and he was an American and audio engineer, record producer and musician. He was in nothing I've ever heard of, but wonder what he's worked on. Okay, he, okay. He has worked on stuff by Sonic Youth, Prong, White Zombie, Pussy Galore, Doss Damon, Dinosaur Junior. So let's see what he did in '91. I am on the engineer page. So it's not necessarily what he produced. But yeah, he did, okay, so he did Dinosaur Junior's fossils. He did JARBO, 13 Masks, Unrest, Factory Record. He did a whole single teenage whore, Gumball. Oh, funeral at the movies. What did he do on funeral at the movies? So I showed her to think he was, he mixed it. Unsains self-titled album in '91. So he did, he produced that one. So very much just like a kind of a, oh yeah, he worked on Meantime by Helmut too. So very much, yeah, he recorded that record. Oh, is Wharton Tears the guy that Albenie was like, don't ever let this guy mix a record that I recorded ever again. I think that's who it is that Albenie had a problem with. So yeah, that's funny. It sounds like he didn't actually record it himself. So they just let loose in the studio. Should I explain why it sounds as rough as it does, but it still sounds cool, it has an edge to it. And it fits that vermiform sound. Vermiform is not the most polished record label. I don't know, any final thoughts? No, I don't know, I think that covers it. Well, you already gave it five stars. Do you think that's your actual rating on it? It may drop down in a little time. It was kind of like an impulse in the moment. I was like, yeah, you know what? I'll give it five stars. But I mean, I think both LPs are equal in quality. Yeah, yeah, we didn't really talk much about the second one, but I listened to it as well. And then I listened to the other comp, the one that has all their seven inches too. Like I listened to the entire born against discography yesterday, I think like the whole thing. I think I like battle hymns better. It's a little faster, it sounds a little better, production wise. But really, just listen to, just listen to both of them. Really? There's not a huge difference in quality. Yeah, it's so easy to listen to both in like one sitting. Oh, I didn't mention the refused thing, also, yeah. I always forget that they stole the refused or fucking dead line from the song "Born Against or Fucking Dead." Yeah. What is original to that band? I was gonna say, what did refused do that was original? Because they stole literally everything. They stole the album artwork, they stole the name of the album, they stole song titles, they stole haircuts, they're sound, like everything stolen. Yeah, fused or frauds. They just packaged it all together in a way that sold better than anyone else had done. Yeah, they stole "Breaking Up" in Richmond, Virginia from "Born Against" too. Why did the refused actually break up? I know they played the Greensboro. I think it was Harrisburg, right? Harrisonburg, whichever one the darkest I was from, in Virginia, but it was Virginia. Yeah, it was funny. It was Harrisonburg. It was like, the last show was Harrisonburg, Virginia, the one that got shut down. Yeah, 'cause their last complete show was in Greensboro, I think. I guess technically they broke up in Georgia, like when they got into an argument on their way to another show. Yeah, I think it was like, they got into an argument and they have like a van wreck maybe, a bender bender or something. I don't know. Anyway, I'll give it a four. I think you liked it a little bit more than I did, but I definitely really, really liked it. I think I'm gonna go straight for 4.0 on this one. But yeah, yeah. Fair record, really cool band. Very short run that they existed, but really good. Really liked it a lot. So I think that will do it for us. So thank you all so much for listening. 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This week we are talking about political hardcore band, Born Against and their 1991 album, Nine Patriotic Hymns for Children. We recorded this episode the day after the election, and we couldn't imagine a more fitting band to be discussing.
