Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard

Detroit Lions' refreshing killer instinct, Saquon Barkley's MVP charge, Sean Payton's impact

Duration:: 44m
Broadcast on:: 20 Nov 2024
Audio Format:: other

Super Bowl 50 champion Bennie Fowler joins New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard to discuss the Detroit Lions' relentless killer instinct, Josh Allen's and Saquon Barkley's MVP resumes, Sean Payton's and Bo Nix's impressive surge with the Denver Broncos and more from the NFL's Week 11 action @Bleav. SUBSCRIBE to the @PLonNFL YouTube page to get the latest Giants updates and news delivered directly to you, and to participate in regular LIVE Q&A chats with Pat. Purchase a Super Chat or Super Sticker to have your comments elevated to the top of the feed and have Pat answer your question FIRST! Watch the full video of this @Bleav podcast on Pat's YouTube Channel. Find Pat also on 'X' (@PLeonardNYDN), Instagram (@PLonNFL) & TikTok (@PLonNFL). Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is brought to you by MyBookie. It’s MyBookie’s 10th year anniversary, and they’re rolling out the red carpet for bettors, including Risk-Free Thursdays and weekly no-sweat bets all season long. Use the promo code 'PATSPICKS' here to get your first deposit of $50 or more matched 100% up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your Football season a winning season with MyBookie! Bet Anything, Anytime, Anywhere. Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is also sponsored by @BoomChaga and @Estate98Coffee. BOOM Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune-boosting antioxidants and heart-healthy compounds. Go to BoomChaga.com and use the code TALKINBALL25 to get a 25% discount on your first Subscribe and Save Order. Estate98 Coffee is a specialty coffee concentrate that's perfect when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes less than 10 seconds to make a delicious Estate 98 iced or hot coffee, it’s great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order.

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This is first down with Benny Fowler, a weekly recap of NFL action with a Super Bowl champion former NFL wide receiver. We're going to go over it all from the Giants drama to the Lions blowout of the Jaguars and what it means for both teams. What is going on with those Denver Broncos? Despair in Dallas and much, much more. Brought to you here by my bookie, which is rolling out the red carpet for sports betters this football season, including risk-free Thursdays and a special promo code, "PatsPix" at the link in all my social media profiles. Use the promo code on your first deposit and get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Look for my "PatsPix" every week on social media and keep winning this football season with my bookie. Also brought to you by Boom Chaga mushroom super drink, a natural extract, loaded with anti-inflammatory immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. 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It's great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkingball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. And now on to our interview with Benny Fowler, Super Bowl 50 champion former NFL wide receiver. All right, another episode of talking ball with Pat Leonard. First down with Benny Fowler, week 11, talking with a Super Bowl champion former NFL wide receiver. Benny, I want to get right into it. I'm really loving the Detroit Lions, not only as a team that has asserted themselves as a Super Bowl favorite really at this point, but what I love about week 11, what they did here, Benny, is I feel like the world's gone soft. When you start running up the score, people say, let up, take your players out, all that stuff, 52 to 6. I am all over Dan Campbell, leaving guys in, running up the score, say, stop it if you can, if you can't get out of the way, we're going to set some records. As a player on either side of that, do you like seeing that? Is that too much? Is that overdoing it for a team? Or is it kind of like, hey, this is a competitive sport. Stop it if you want. No, it's a competitive sport. We're playing at the highest level. The NFL is the highest level in terms of football. So do I like it? Yes. And no, if I like it, if I'm on Lions, and you're getting a chance to get your stats and you're getting a chance to continue to work and put things on tape that other teams are going to have to stop down the road. It reminds me of some of those Patriots games where they would beat teams in a division 53 to 6. I don't know when that was, it might have been the Lions on Thanksgiving day when Brady hung up 50 on them or one of the crazy snow games. I was just going to say, there was a snow game against the Titans. I remember very well was one of those like 53 to 6. So when you think about that, the dominant performance is like that. You know, Detroit is a team to reckon with and definitely number one in my power rankings now for sure. Detroit Lions, they're beating teams, how they're supposed to beat them. If they know that they're better, they are beating them and they are beating them handily. And it's just something too, it's just super impressive, especially because, you know, NFL is usually a week-to-week league. And for them, they've been dominant every week after week two. So it's been incredible to see, I know my mom is extremely happy. She is a diehars Lions fan. So I know she's really happy and you know, she's just counting the games down. Hopefully they get to the Super Bowl for her sake. That's what she wants to see. Yes, let's get it done for her. Yeah, how the fortunes have turned into that franchise and that city and football for how long they were so not only bad, but worse team in the league, irrelevant level, right? It's so cool to see. One question about that, I know, you know, everyone wants a nitpick, whatever, but it's always been a question. Like, I remember when Rob Gronkowski broke his arm blocking a field goal and people were criticizing Bill Belichick, you know, for leaving him in and the game was already decided and his response was, "Well, just let me know which play you know he's going to get hurt on and I won't put him in." But, you know, people saying like, "Okay, why is Penne Sewell still in at the end of a 52-6 game? He's so important to your, you know, team to go win a Super Bowl." Do you think it's important, though, to keep your pedal to the metal and keep your identity as a team on the field and, therefore, like, that's not a question? Or is there a point where it's like, "Hey, Dan, you know, let's take this guy out. You know, we need him for that Super Bowl run." You know, what I think when it comes to offense alignment, you don't just have 12 offense alignment that you dress every game. So, who are you going to replace him with? And if you take Penne Sewell out and the person that replaces him isn't as good or Jackson Bill gets, now gets a pass rush and Jared Goff gets hurt, now you have a bigger problem on your hands. So, when it comes to offense align, I keep those guys in there. But when it comes to the skill players, and I'm in Ross St. Brown or Jameson Williams, whatever it may be, you know, you want to take the running backs out fine, you want to get some younger running backs carries that don't have the mileage on their legs. Yeah, put them in there. But you only dress 53 players. If you have 53 players, you dress 46, right, or 47, whatever it may be. So, you can't just take people out of the game. This isn't college or this is in high school where you have 100 people dressed on the sideline. So, yeah, Dan's got to be smart about it. But the injury rate in the NFL is 100 percent. So, people are going to get hurt. We tackle and we run into each other. And it just is what it is. I think that's a great response by Bill Belichick. Yeah, let me know what play is going to get hurt on. And then I'll take him out for that play. You don't know. So, what are we talking about? That's an awesome quote. So, we might as well just kick off with shout outs because the Lions obviously deserve one. Everyone affiliated with that. Jared Goff, you know, a couple of weeks ago, your MVP leading candidate, he bounces back from that five-interception performance for 12, four touchdowns. But a lot of elite great performances this week around the NFL individually. Where would you like to start on our shout outs this week? Oh, my first shout out will be to Bonix again, 28 for 33 over 300 yards passing is now closed the gap in terms of the rookie of the year race with James Daniels, playing some incredible football. So, my shout out goes to him in terms of beating a good Atlanta Falcons team who's actually winning the NFC South. And then another shout out would be on the same team, which would be head coach Sean Payton. You know, he got a lot of flag for, you know, everything that went on with Russell Wilson last year and is Bo Nix the guy early on in the season and Bo has gotten better every week. They should have won the game against Kansas City. Bo continues to play well and continues to get better. And then also Sean sweeping his former division. I mean, Carolina, Atlanta, and New Orleans going down there and Tampa Bay going down there to those teams, not going down there and going to those teams, but going to those and playing those teams and beating those teams and beating those teams handily. Sean still has his post on the NFC South and is still the king of the NFC South, even though he's in the AFC. So shout out to Sean Payton and shout out to Bo Nix in terms of their play, their call playing, their play calling ability. So yeah, that's those guys. No, for sure. Yeah, Bo Nix is on my list too. Let me ask you a question about coaches for a second. Could you mention Payton? Absolutely right. He deserves one as well. As a player, so last year in the hiring cycle, in a lot of ways, the NFL kept going younger and less experienced and there were coaches on the outside looking in who had a lot more games and playoff appearances and things under their belts and owners are choosing. They're looking for, you know, the next young offensive play caller that could be their coach for the next 20 years, whatever. I'm just curious as a player, you know, when you look at the front of the room and you see a Jim Harbaugh or a Sean Payton, you know, and forget Andy Reid, obviously, but just the idea that they have so much tread on their tires and they have, they can offer you like, hey, 10 years ago or 15 years ago, we played this team and this is how they like to be. This is their identity, like the Pittsburgh Steelers, for example, and this is how we attack them. And like, does that wealth of knowledge as a player in still more confidence and translate in your mind to a better overall operation? Because I asked this question because, you know, right now, to me, it's not a coincidence that Denver was Sean Payton and the Chargers with Jim Harbaugh, obviously in the same division as well. These teams with some good talent on their rosters, but not dramatic differences in what they've added to their team on the field have suddenly become really good teams. So I just put it to you. Like, does that experience, and does that type of leadership from a Harbaugh or Payton matter and translate better than, let's say, a young, you know, late 30s, early 40s, something coach finding his way trying to lead you? I think it really just depends on the situation when it comes to coaching, but there is no substitute for experience. When you look at young coaches, you can look at a Sean McVay or Kevin O'Connell, those guys have done really well. Kyle Shanahan done really well. When you're thinking about a situation where there is a young quarterback coming into the fold, whether it's in Denver or whether it's in Washington, you need a veteran coach, like a Dan Quinn or a Sean Payton, or you have a Herbert right there and you have a Jim Harbaugh coming into the situation, there is no substitute for experience. And if I was a owner, I would hire a guy like a Sean Payton or a Jim Harbaugh because they do have that experience. They have seen these things, but they know how to institutionalize the process in terms of how do we build this roster from start to finish? How do we put the complimentary players around this quarterback to be successful? And sometimes they're going to make, and they're not afraid to make the unpopular decision, getting rid of the Russell Wilson or letting a Keenan Allen or Mike Williams go in free agency because they want to use the dollars elsewhere. Or hey, we want to restructure these certain contracts. So yeah, there is no substitute for experience. And that's what you're seeing with these coaches. And I think some of these owners need to pay attention to that. And I think that's something that Chicago should pay attention to. I think that's something that the Colts should pay attention to is that in the off season, if you're going to fire or let your coaches go, who is going to be the more veteran voice in this locker room that can help these people move forward and these players move forward? It's no, it's no, it's no coincidence that you're going to start to see Bo Nix even continue history trajectory to go up. Jayden Daniels for the history directory to go up, and you'll see it in between years one and two dramatically in the off season, coming back with the same offense, coming back with the same offense, a coordinator. I think when you look at a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, and now in this day and age, Patrick Mahomes or Joe Burrell in his first couple years, they had the same offense coordinator. They're calling the same plays to run the same formation. So you can see that camaraderie and you could see their progressions within the offense because they are in the same system. They are listening to the same voice. And it's a voice that they can respect. And it's a voice that has been around the NFL. When you have a young coach that comes in there that tries to be too cool, you know, players think that you're their friend and like, oh yeah, we can shoot the shit and we can talk back and forth. And yeah, we're buddies with Sean or Jim Harbaugh, you know where the hierarchy is in terms of, hey, this is how it's going to go. And this is how it's going to be. One interesting thing about the Broncos too is that, you know, the more you're around sports, the more you have, you remember or you notice that and this goes across, this goes to basketball, this goes to hockey, baseball, whatever. There's the good teams that matters as far as power rankings, whatever. But it also matters more than anything, in my opinion. The Denver Broncos are getting better, you know, late in the season, the teams that start ascending and showing you, okay, yeah, we might not be the best team in the league. We might not even be top three or four. But we're playing better football and Thanksgiving than we did on Halloween. We're playing better football in Christmas than we did on Thanksgiving. And, you know, you could put the Arizona Cardinals in that bucket, you could put the Denver Broncos in that bucket, even the Pittsburgh Steelers, you know, beating the Baltimore Ravens. These are teams that I think you have to remember, like when they're getting better late and other teams are not, you know, once when they meet up in the postseason, you know, these are teams that are humming on all cylinders. And that's where you see the upsets or people say, where did this come from? Well, it started here, you know, in early November, late October, when they kept kind of going on the up and up. I want to give a shout-out to running backs. And I want to name two in particular, just like Bo Nix, I feel like we're mentioning Saequan Barkley every week, but we have to mention him again, especially with the egg he's throwing on the Giants face, weekend and week out, he's back in the MVP conversation. And frankly, Benny, as special as he looks and you always bring up the Penn State numbers and you are absolutely right about that. You called that at the beginning of the season. He just looks like he's at another level and another guy want to throw into that bucket after watching him on Monday Night Football was Joe Mixon. I mean, Benny, Joe Mixon is a guy, I know he's not 40 years old or anything, but here's a guy who was on a Bengals offense that just decided, yeah, we're not going to pay this guy. He's not the same player he used to be. He is taunting Cowboys defenders mid play as he's running around them and bouncing off of them into the end zone. There's got to be something about the modern game right now where the running backs are kind of coming back. The running game is coming back a little bit, but I think both of these guys just are big time shout-outs. What do you think about there two weeks? I think, you know, I do agree with you that the running back position is definitely coming back and it's coming back at a premium. And I think, you know, when you think about a Joe Mixon or you think about a Saquan Barkley, number one, they can run in between the tackles and then number two, they're great in the past game and number three, they're great at picking up blocks. So you can use them in so many different ways and they are becoming incredible weapons. And yeah, I mean, what Joe and Mixon did on Monday night football and the toughness and tenacity and culture that he is bringing to that Houston Texans run game is incredible. And I think you're seeing that with Saquan as well, getting behind his pads, the incredible plays that he's making. But when you add such a dynamic player like a Saquan to an offense that was already high powered, but was missing that home run ability, I mean, just look what he did against Washington and you know, he gets a toss, cuts it back and then takes it to the house. He has home run ability still and Saquan can play like this for the next four to five years easily in terms of his dynamic ability because he has that type of, he is that type of athlete. Now, I know we see a lot of running backs. They do fall off at a certain age, but Saquan isn't a lot like a lot of running backs in terms of his dynamic ability and the type of athlete that he is. We don't see a lot of athletes at the running back position like that. We have some incredible running backs, but in terms of the dynamic ability, the jumping over people backwards, just the odd playmaking ability that he does have in the overall raw athleticism, we don't see a lot of that. And if he continues to take care of his body like he is, we'll continue to see this for the next couple of years. And he, I think he will because like you said, I think he's a mature player. I think he's a mature teammate. You know, he was young when he got to New York. I mean, number two overall pick, but I think it's totally different now in terms of who he is, the way he's approaching things. And you know, he's, he's playing for a Hall of Fame career. You know, it's, it's, there are people who are playing in the NFL because they love football and they want to be incredible players. And there are people who are playing for legacy and Hall of Fame and Goldjack, take on that type of talent. I love, I love where you're going with that. And, you know, Penny, we're at the point, he's playing so well and has made such a difference in Philadelphia. The conversation in Philadelphia now is about, hey, should we stop taking touchdowns away from Saquan with the tush push? Like that's all they have to talk about right now. Because it's basically, hey, he either gets in or he's at the one in jail and heard scores. But I remember going back to when they embarrassed the Giants here, I was talking to Saquan in the locker room afterwards about like, what were you chirping at Giants there? He was yelling to the Giants defenders, we're running the tush push right now, it's coming, you're not going to stop it. And, you know, it's so, that's, you know, that was the Giants that day, but it's going to be another team the next day. This is, this is what he gives them is not only everything you just said from a leadership and talent standpoint, it's also this kind of confidence, it's not bravado, but it's a confidence that they have the highest level talent on the field. And so if they're on the field lining up against your best 11, you're not going to stop them. I'm not sure if you have any other shout outs for me, I do have some frauds, I want to point out to anyone else you want to tip out a shout out, Josh Allen. I mean, good point. What an incredible win. Does he not put himself at the top of the MVP race? You know, they're nine and two beaten a Kansas City team and beaten them late. And then with the run on fourth and two, you know, Josh Allen continues to show number one, his incredible talent. I think he is better. I don't know if I said this at the beginning of the year, but I think he will be a better, continue to be a better quarterback. Now that you don't have to have a Stefan Diggs on the team in terms of you have to find him or throw him the ball, not saying that Stefan Diggs is a cancer to that team. But when you have such an incredible personality and you have this, I want the ball, I know I can make the play, throw me the ball, throw me the ball, throw me the ball. It makes things awkward for the quarterback. Now the quarterback has to look for you every time. And I think Josh is doing it receiver by committee and people who are younger who don't have that bravado to ask for the ball every play. And he's going to spread the ball around. And then he's going to be able to make plays with his legs. And you know, Josh, when he when he starts running the ball, I mean, he runs a ball like a running back and he runs it recklessly. And so shout out to him, you know, they're a half a game back of the Kansas City Chiefs. And you know, if they get home field advantage, again, it could be tough for Kansas City to go back there and win. So Kansas City has to make sure they do whatever they can continue to stay at the top of the AFC race. That's a great point. And yeah, you're right. We had we do have to shout out Josh, arguably the biggest and best and most impressive win of the weekend. Benny, I also want to talk to not to take anything away from Buffalo because McDermott and the Bills defense, they always get criticized for not getting it done. So they finally get it done. It's not fair to just say, man, the Chiefs don't look very good. But everything looks painful about how the Chiefs have to create offense right now. I mean, I, you know, I don't know if DeAndre Hopkins has it in him to be like a 12 target guy. If I'm Andy Reed right now, he doesn't get the ball enough. Number one, I know he just got to the team, but he's got to get the ball more. And maybe Pacheco coming back eventually changes things for them. And I know they're terrific situationally. So I know that Spaggs and Andy Reed and my homes, you take those three and you put them up against everybody for a one win elimination in the playoffs. I mean, that's why they're going for a three-peat. So I'm not ruling them out from the three-peat here. It's not what I'm doing. I just, it just looks so hard for them. And I'm trying to project them now winning in the playoffs. Let's say they have to play, you know, the Steelers, the Bills and the Lions. And you know, maybe you're adding a fourth game to that if they're not getting the buy, the home field or whatever it is. Can they, can they do it? Like, are you concerned about their ability to win so many close games with so many slim margins for error when, as special as my homes is, and he makes that touchdown throw on the back of the end zone, you know, late, as special as he is, it just, you rare, you never see a team that can't create offense on its own win. I am concerned in terms of Kansas City, I'm concerned for their offensive line. Every time Patrick is dropping back, he is looking at the left tackle to see if he's going to have enough time to throw. I am concerned, but I think one of the things that Andy Reid does really well in the playoffs is take it week by week. I think they're still trying to find their identity. And yeah, they're struggling. You know, people are in and out of the lineup. You've got people going on in your reserve. You got your two top targets that you thought you were going to be throwing the ball to are not playing for the rest of the year. You add Hopkins in, things look great for a couple weeks. And now you have a game like this against Buffalo. So yeah, it's tough. But if they do get a buy week, Andy Reid is the best in terms of coming out of a buy week. And I think he is the best in terms of, hey, what does it have to do or what do we have to do to win this game in the playoffs? And I think he's the best in terms of that. And then when you think about a McColl-Harman or you think about an Xavier Worthy or the tight end by committee or the running backs, he will use more of, hey, all right, now we are just going to use these specialty plays. I mean, you think about Caderius Tony and the impact that he had on the Chiefs in the Super Bowl a couple years ago. And then McColl-Harman comes back to Kansas City last year, doesn't make a lot of plays in the play in the playoffs, but scores a game win in touchdown in the Super Bowl, just Smith Schuster. So I think when it all comes down to it, they'll figure out, hey, that here are our solid seven pass catchers and skill players. And this is what we're going to do and how we're going to go win. But right now, I feel like they're trying to figure it out. Hey, who, if we have to get into a shootout, you know, can be our best weapon. But, you know, they went to Baltimore last year and won that game 17 to 10. I don't remember the Buffalo score, but it was a close game. So there's no stranger to winning close games. Yeah. And I know that, you know, right now they're just taking a pulse of, okay, how do we play against Ravens? We got the film for that. How do we play against the Buffalo's? We got the film for that. Oh, they're setting it up. All they're doing is that they're just taking all the inventory in. They don't have that. They do need to start playing better post Thanksgiving. I mean, these next seven weeks, we need to start seeing uptick in passion. My homes play in the running game and who they are in the identity. But in a one game elimination, I will still take them, especially if they have home feel. Man, oh man. Yeah, that's a scary thought them gathering the film saying, yeah, we might have lost today, but we'll see you again. Another quick shout out. I just want to give Gino Smith. I mean, he's been up and down this year, but I just love, I just continue to love seeing him, you know, be high to mid level NFL starting quarterback after being written off. I love those kinds of stories. Same way, Sam Darnell's kind of bouncing back in Minnesota right now. I was knocked on the floor that the Niners lost this game. I'll admit that. I mean, I thought they were going to cover this game easily. So maybe we could talk more about that. Shout out to Gino though for the game winning drive in the final minute, but yeah, maybe we are on the night night celebration. He had to step for a night night celebration. He did. He did. Gino is the man. So yeah, so credit to him obviously up there in passing yards and even in a tough season pressing on. And really like I've been out there for several games now the last couple of years when the Giants go out there. He's a leader, man. Like the team, the team responds to him. They're confident in him. Like the way New York talks about him is old and outdated when it comes to who he is and what player he is. But maybe maybe a bear is mentioning or talking more about what we saw from the Niners this week. Because Benny, you mentioned it last week and I totally agreed with you. It was like, here they come, right? Here come the Niners are starting around in the form, even with some injuries, you know, with Brandon Iyuk out, they got McCaffrey back starting to hit cylinders. This is the time of the year they're going to ascend. How do you come out of this surprising loss to the Seahawks thinking about them? You know, long term into January and trying to make it super cool. It's looking ugly right now, especially because they're one in three in the division. So it is not looking good for the 49ers. I still believe in them just because they have such a veteran group. And if they get into a wild car, there'll be a dangerous team just in terms of they've been there before and they know how to operate. But you know, George Kittle being out of lineup is a is a big hit. And I always think when Kyle Shanahan misses one of his star players or one of his big players, it's hard for him to readjust the game plan, you know, because George Kittle's such a huge part of their offense in the run game and in the past game. You can't just replace that type of player. You know, if Debo misses a game, you can be super dynamic with a Christian McCaffrey or Ricky Pearsall or when Iyuk was healthy, you can be dynamic or Joanne Jennings. But when you miss a kittle, there is nobody that can replace that type of talent at the tight end position. You know, he's top three, top two, tight end in the league. So it's just hard to do that. And I think that's where they struggled in terms of that, because you know, George Kittle, I would say he's a Seahawks killer in terms of the way he plays against that team and in that division, how he gets the vision opponents. So when he misses a game like that, it becomes super tough for Kyle in terms of the play calling the in the play call and ability. That's a really good point. Yeah, they do have a lot of talent, but some of the talent is more irreplaceable than others, right? Okay, flipping over to fraud alert. And again, not not taking away from the Broncos performance here, but 38 to six Benny or the Falcons total frauds or was this was this more impressive from Denver than Atlanta no show? But you know, I look at them like they've lost now back to back games to the Saints and to the Broncos. Okay, their wins, they have six, six wins. They have six wins. Their last five wins are over teams in their division. So the Saints, Buccaneers and Panthers and the Bucks again, and the Cowboys, they beat the Eagles early in the season, but they've lost now to Steelers, Chiefs, Seahawks, New Orleans, but this performance, Benny, from a team that really should walk away with that NFC South. I mean, I don't know how you can take them seriously after a game like this. But I don't know, maybe I'm overreacting to it. I don't think you're overreacting, but I never thought Atlanta was actually that good. So I don't necessarily see them as frauds. I thought they would be an up and down team. That's an up and down. That's a weird division in terms of the team and the talent that's in that division. You know, you thought Tampa Bay was going to be right there as well in terms of the way they were planned. And you have Mike Evans and Chris Guy when it get hurt. So I wouldn't necessarily call Atlanta frauds. I never thought they were going to be that great in terms of that. But I think it's more impressive that the Broncos got an impressive win because you know, you beat a team 38 to six. I mean, you're playing and you're filing on all cylinders. And I think it's more impressive from the Broncos and them not actually having the hangover from the close chief's loss and coming out there playing with some even more fire to let people know that hey, they're for real. So it's more more on the Broncos than the top. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. And like you said, Bo Nix, you know, is he the leading contender for rookie of the year at this point? I mean, it's neck and neck right with him and Jaden Daniels. But I mean, the numbers he's putting up, you can't ignore them right now. He is cooking and he's out playing Daniels recently. You mentioned the NFC South and the Bucks. Yeah, I actually think the Bucks win this division when all said and done their remaining schedule. Giants, Panthers, Raiders, Chargers, you know, tough opponent, Cowboys, Panthers, Saints. So, you know, they, I think this episode is brought to you by progressive insurance, fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. 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Are getting Mike Evans back this week against the Giants? We'll see. I know he was back on the practice field. They're getting Jamel Dean back either this week or next week. I still like them to win that division out, you know, kind of climb over the Falcons. But I mentioned them also to get to another fraud of the week and a fraud of every week this season at least for the most part is the Giants. And Benny, you know, without coloring your opinion or entering my, what I think into this, I just want to put it to you. The news was the Giants benched Daniel Jones, skipped over Drew Locke and named Tommy DeVito the starter. What do you think of their decision to do this? And how do you think the locker room and the players would respond to that? I think, you know, they're, they're protecting themselves in terms of the $23 million guarantee injury guarantee for Daniel. I think, you know, right now, it's just super unfortunate for Daniel, but I think what's on the brighter side for him is that, hey, look at a Sam Donner, look at a Baker Mayfield, you need to get out of New York and you need to change the scenery. And right now, you need to just focus on yourself. I would take these next seven weeks. And when you're running scout team, focus on your technique, focus on things that you can get better and give the, give the defense hell and practice and just have some fun with it because at the end of the day, it's still football and you're making a shit ton of money. So hey, whatever, man, you don't want to be there any way, you know, in terms of you don't want to play for that GM, you don't want to play for that coach anymore. So I think Daniel might be a little relieved. I know he's pissed and obviously embarrassed because, you know, you want to play at a high level. But now you're like, all right, cool. My time's up here and, you know, get ready to reset in his mind. In the locker room, I don't think the players actually really care because it's not like they're about to make the playoffs. And I think the Giants have been in this situation for the last couple years and the last couple of weeks, quite frankly, where players are out there playing for themselves, which is fine because, you know, at the end of the day, you have to take care of yourself. And right now, the team aspect of things goes out of the window when you're not making the playoffs. So now you've got to put your best film on tape, your best play on tape. So you can continue to play in this league and show that you are capable of player in this league. And, you know, it's kind of every man for himself in the locker room. You know, they don't, they're not really trying to go out there and get wins. Now they're trying to solidify draft picks and play young guys and see what they got. And that's just kind of is what it is at this point. Yeah, no doubt, no doubt disappointing. Sad for Daniel that it's not working out that it didn't work out, but I agree. That's a really good point by you. You know, the next Sam Darnell, the next Baker Mayfield plus made a lot of money here in New York. So, you know, he'll look back on this in a year or two and just look at it as the first of many chapters. All right, let's go to our MVP and power ranking conversation. Last week, you know, you issued a deserved apology to Lamar Jackson. This week, the Ravens can barely get in the end zone. They lose to the Pittsburgh Steelers who don't score a touchdown. Has your MVP order changed at all, Benny? Is there anybody different atop the rankings there for you? I would still have Lamar as the top and then Josh Allen right after him. But yeah, those are my top two right now. And I probably put Saquan in there as well. Those would be my three. So it's still be Lamar Jackson just because he's still, I don't know, 25 interceptions or 25 touchdowns, three interceptions, playing incredible football. Josh Allen, you know, just doing incredible work as well. And then Saquan, all the things that he's doing at such a high level and in Philadelphia. So those would be my three picks in terms of that. Division games are tough though. And Lamar, you know, that was a tough game. They had some plays to win at opportunities to tie it at the end. But division games are tough. And at Pittsburgh Steelers defense is tough. TJ Watt is an animal in terms of how he plays and just, he's such a game wrecker. So yeah, division games are tough. And then Baltimore and in in Pittsburgh, they always have those types of games. It was like that when I was at Michigan State, I always think about it. You know, regardless if we had a high powered offense or whoever was on offense, it was going to be an ugly game. There's going to be a lot of running ball. It was just going to be ugly. Or if we played Iowa, it was just going to be an ugly game. And that's when you see Pittsburgh and Baltimore, you just know it's going to be ugly. It's not going to be 54 to 53. It's going to be, you know, 18 to 16 or 14, 13, you know, just that's that type of division game. Right. Right. No doubt about it. Yeah, I really can't quibble with your with your list there at all. I mean, like you alluded to earlier, maybe Josh Allen has you know, stepped slightly ahead of Lamar given that performance and beating the Chiefs and given where the bills are right now record wise. But you know, what I find fascinating about the MVP race, Benny, is that Saequan, I know he's a running back and I know if Josh Allen and Lamar don't fall off, it's probably going to be one of the quarterbacks. But if Saequan plays the same level he's been throughout the season all the way to the end, I actually think the voting is going to be pretty interesting. Because he is legitimately at that level right now. So that's one thing I think is really exciting about this year. The other thing that you mentioned about the Steel is TJ Watt. Yes, amazing. Also, I want to give a shout out. I was just looking up his name because I didn't want to I want to make sure I got it right. Steeler's linebacker, Peyton Wilson, that interception he made, yanking the ball out of the arms of I think it was Justice Hill, the running back from the Ravens, that was an incredible play. Yeah, I mean, one of the one of the plays of the week, one of the plays of the season. And yeah, I wanted to shout him out. That was amazing. But yeah, usually you and I kind of differ on these rankings. I think I'm right there with you. I might throw Saequan even higher. But like I said, I think that's where it's trending, I'll be fascinating to see. And then power rankings, Benny, who do you have a top your power rankings? Give me your top five if you have them. I got lions. I got Powerings right now, lions, bills, Kansas City, Baltimore, Philly. All right. Yeah, no, I respect that. I might put Philly a little higher. I do think the Steelers, I had them in last week. And after they beat the Ravens one week after I put them in my top five, I think maybe I'm kicking the Ravens out and putting the Steelers in instead of Baltimore. I know you think I'm crazy. I know you think you're shaking. No, I actually think you might be spot on or that. You know what concerns me about the Ravens is Justin Tucker, which is crazy to say. Yeah, what is going on there? I just, I think he was complaining about the field in the conditions, but Chris Boswell goes out there and hits all his field goals. So, you know, it's that if a game comes down to a field goal for Baltimore, I'd be, I'm worried now about that, which you would never worry about that in Baltimore usually, but he have not been the same this year. No, no, he has not. Yeah, no, that's a, and you look at even the Chiefs. I mean, I guess they're, I think they're going to get buttker back in the playoffs that they're supposed to, but you know, those top teams in the AFC missing their kickers who normally in big spots have been automatic in their careers. You know, that that's key, especially Kansas City is always trying to win really close games. And then Baltimore, like you said, they're going to end up in the playoffs where, you know, they blow all these bad teams out. They get in the playoffs. They're going to be in some of these close games. If Tucker is not automatic, where do you stand there? It was even funny, you know, that with the Eagles game, Jake Elliott, a guy who was money during their Super Bowl run years ago. And really, I mean, he's automatic. The guy never misses. He misses two field goals and an extra point, I think it was. And so in Philadelphia, it was like everybody kind of, it was a shock to their system like, wait a second, do we have a problem, a kicker all of a sudden? So yeah, that all makes it very interesting. Benny, this has been an amazing conversation in podcast. As always, this has been first down with Benny Fowler, week 11 of the NFL season here on Talking Ball with Pat Leonard on the Believe Network. Benny, talk to you soon, man. Appreciate you, Pat. That was another awesome episode with Benny Fowler, Super Bowl champion former NFL wide receiver. Great breakdown of all the action around the league. We will be back with Benny next week. We are brought to you here on the Believe Network by my bookie rolling out the red carpet for sports betters this year, making you money with our Pat's picks and our giant sprinkles and our props. James Winston hit on all the overs I gave out in week 11 for the Browns down in New Orleans. We keep bringing you these picks. And so here's what you do. 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