Radio Miraya
2849: Democracy In Action - Traditional Leadership in Good Governance
Democracy in action. A program on how state functions, featuring in-depth discussions with experts on governance, politics and decision-making. Tune-in. As every week, we explore the complexities of governance. What is democracy? What is your role as a citizen? All these and more in democracy in action. Thursday at 9 a.m. with a repeat at 9 p.m. the same day, stay informed and engaged with democracy in action. Radio Mirai, the voice of peace. Hello, and welcome to Democracy in Action. Today, my name is Lucy. Today, we look at traditional leadership in good governance. In the South Sudan context, traditional leaders have great influence and responsibility in communities. Traditional leaders' structures are a key tool for nation building. As we look at the roles to ensure good governance for the nation as a whole, joining me to discuss the topic is Achwil Malith Bangal, who is an independent consultant and researcher with a focus on public policy. He is the founder of Pass Forum, which is policy advocacy and strategic studies. Mr. Achwil, you're very welcome. Thank you, Lucy. I'm very happy. Thank you, listeners. Thank you very much. Here, we also have Prince Tadeo Pita Sasa. Mario, Peter Mario. Tadeo Mario Sasa. Yes, Prince Tadeo Mario Sasa, who's the Byron Abagnaki of the Azan de Kingdom. That translates to Prime Minister. You're very welcome, Prince Tadeo. Thank you. Well, as you continue to listen, remember you are welcome to join the conversation. You can start by texting. Texting as we discuss, you can text 0 9 1 2 1 7 7 1 4 1. And later in the program, you'll have the opportunity to share your comments or ask questions. And so the numbers to note are 0 9 1 2 0 6 7 8 7 9 0 9 1 2 0 6 8 1 0 1 and 0 9 1 2 0 6 7 9 2 9. So later on in the program, those are the numbers you'll be able to call using. And so now let's dive into the discussion for the day looking at traditional leadership. Mr. Achwil, what is traditional leadership and how is it very different from modern leadership? What are the differences? Maybe there are some similarities as well, but what is traditional leadership? Okay, traditional leadership is actually custom. Yes, it is customary and it is based on customary laws. And it is being interchangeably used, traditional. And it is in Arabic, it's put a leader or put, you know, or fear, very bad way of putting it. But it is about customs. And in Africa, we have something communal, social responsibility norms. We are communal. We are not individual. And when we come and talk about democracy later on, I'll give you. So when anything associated with the way of life, the way you pay homage to God, and the way we believe and the way we attribute every citizen role and responsibility, then it is custom. So we rule ourselves through customary laws. So customary authority, traditional authority, local authority, when the colonized came, they found us very strong in everything, including discipline. You know, we don't have prisons. And we don't have death penalty. So we actually, people rely on you to confess, and you believe when you confess honestly, there will be repentance. Then you repent, and then definitely you are forgiven, because you don't want to die when you are blaming yourself, because we believe it is here that we suffer. We don't even believe that there is hell and paradise. It is here is paradise. God gave you the enjoyment. So when you die, they go take the spirit, which is not mortal. God said with God, that's why we separate our, so when Mozumbus came for their own reason, they wanted to kill our efficacy, and this is strong. We were strong military, we were strong, administratively, and cohesion. So they wanted to destroy that. And that's why they gave us, then they rely on the Greek philosophy of the, for the Greeks, a black person, blood knows, not, not white is a slave. For the Arabs, it is either you are a slave and, or that is the Parisian, and for the, and for Romans, it's about the strings, but ours is about logic. Okay. That is custom. So, and I'm very happy Prince is here. He will give you a lot more than that. Definitely. Yes. Now, when we talk about traditional leadership, now we know that this is about customs, customary laws, and it is in the communal social setting, and not just South Sudan, but Africa, and so the whole world, by the way, and the whole world, and the whole world, like different communities have their structure. There is no two or three government or governance, identical governance system. Kingdoms, you cannot get too identical. Democracy can get. The reason, the simple reason is that people contextualize the system into their custom. Okay. Thank you very much. It is us who are being, being full and bully, that we have to forget about our custom, and we just fly in there. Being bullies. All right. Yeah. It's Prince today. What do you have to add there? Yeah. First of all, thank you, Caden, for hosting us at Miraya FM this morning. I'm here to firstly convey the greetings of his Maggie Sticking, Robert Paine director, Budwe, to the audience, and also to the Miraya FM, and really appreciate this program. And also I would like to welcome my colleague, Honorable Akhil Van Goel, in this program, co-hosted this program. Van Goel has taken us in the theoretical part of traditional leadership, but I'm coming to talk practically that traditional authority is, we can say, the government of community, way by the processing of the community affairs, and the whole responsibility of people or the community on behalf of them, and the traditional authority derived this power, direct from the people through the norms, tradition, and culture, background. So this is all about the tradition, authorities. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. So it's the government of the community. Now, could you shed a little bit more light on the history of traditional leadership in South Sudan, and the current status now. Akhil, you touched on the history a little bit, but could you now blend it to differentiating between the current and how it was before? Yes. First of all, the current, before we get into theories, if you go to that Robert Leyspies agreement, the whole of article of chapter six is about how the leadership of the process of constitution making must be people's led, and it is people's led, and every political entity claims fighting on behalf of the people. If you see our Robert Leyspies, the transitional constitution of Republic of Sudan, article 33, article 33, is clearly talking about the right of its nieces and culture communities. They are not its nieces and culture communities, they are nationalities, and we are 73 in South Sudan. It is not about numbers. It is not about size. And then within it, they are tribes and its nieces and cultural communities. So, intellectuals also, our pen holders, when they are writing the constitution, they miss play. That's why they write of its nieces and culture communities. They put even that right into only cultural rights, and there is no economic rights, there is no political rights. And they want to be asked to vote in, they want to be voting in on what they don't want to talk. There is no enslavement worse than this. But if you also read Local Government Act, section 64, and sections 107, clearly and explicitly recognize the community government, which existed before the statutory government. Actually, the government we are in, we have in you, but here, up to pay up is statutory. It is based on a statute based on the constitution. There is no other thing, and we need it. Now, politically, President Kirwan has been, since 2006, he said that we should not forget the reason why we went to war, it is because of our identity, cultural identities. And he was directing the constitution community, the legal committee of South Sudan, to make sure that our laws are reflective of our cultures. And therefore, now, this is about the past, the recent past, and the way forward. Already article two of the constitution, say, supremacy of the people. And the people, it is not we, the intellectuals, who are halfway, we are not we are spoiled, we are not even younger, well, well, well, well, well, well, bad. And we claim talking on behalf of the people. No, this is what is supposed to be defined by the constitution making process. So, doing the constitution by intellectuals will be in trouble like Sudan, because Sudan constitution, since nineteen, even before 1955, was led by utopian intellectuals, who claim knowledge, authority of knowing how to read the right, and the authority of knowing other people, culture, and they forget their own cultures. So, what should change in the context of South Sudan? The most important thing to change. And it is not me saying, it is written in the constitution, but people don't go back, people don't read it. Now we have a factional representation. I have to be, my voice has to be heard because I'm fighting. So, inclusivity is the end of the day. All right. So, without, without, without traditional authority leaders, how do you go inclusivity? Because our traditional authority leaders, our democracy is very inclusive, representative, and it is actually based on either spiritual or attributes, good attributes. And people concede power, concede. Me, I concede what my mother, or my father, could decide, and my elders, and their extended family, and goes up. Okay. Now, before we delve deep into how the traditional structures and leadership should be included in the nation, let's look at the role that traditional leadership plays on the ground. The importance, the responsibility that now will feed to the nation. Prince Adeo, could you touch on those? How does traditional leadership contribute to the structure of the society in the communities? What do they do? Yeah, thank you very much for this question. For me, I believe that country is defined by people. And those people are actually derived from the communities in first place. And secondly, that, if you look at South Sudan, we can see there is multinational and multi-regional communities. So those are the basis of South Sudan, national building setup. And therefore, the traditional authority play a major role in supporting the government in areas where the government cannot reach. What are those areas? For instance, the traditionally does play a major role in issue of traditional justice. Sometimes, traditionally, does engage in a solving problem conflict on the ground where the government cannot, because of a short of finance, baggating, and all these traditional leaders are working free to ensure that their people are living in peace. So this is a great contribution that the traditional leaders are playing. Also, you go back to what Mr. Rachael has mentioned that the traditional leaders play a major role in mobilizing people towards the government policy implementation of government policies. We have witnessed this right from beginning how the play role in mobilizing people behind the struggle to attain our independence. And also, make pressure on the movement on how to maintain the diversity of all inclusiveness of government. That's why I can remember the Shokodum 1994 and also the 2004 Convention where the traditional leaders were really precise and over the issue of inclusiveness of traditional leaders in the consistency making and also in the level of governance. We are very sorry also a bit because there is a big challenge the traditional leaders or the community as fully set it or fix it under the Local Government Act. So this is to say the limit, there is limitation of local traditional leaders effective participation to the level of state, live alone, not to reach the national government. We have also seen that the transitional constitution of Republic of South Sudan 2011 acknowledge the role of traditional leaders in concession making. So it was not out of when it was through the importance of the sector to attract, to make this constitution very attractive to people and also to avoid the mistake that was happened before when Saas Sudanese were gathering in 1948 conferences. The recommendation of the traditional leaders was not taken seriously and that's why. And what was that mistake? The constitution of Sudan by then supposed to be persuaded taking the opinion of traditional leaders and they ignore it. So it will become now a seed for rebellion, for opposition of the government. So just now to look at the details, what were those recommendations that were ignored? The federal system for instance, people demanded the federal system, equitability of distribution of wells, inclusiveness and positions in the government. Those are the areas that was key for them in order to reflect our culture. Also, people need to express themselves within the system of the governance. So to express their culture and others' concerns. So this is the major areas that we see the traditional search are very important. Okay. We'll be going for a break shortly, but before that it will do have something to add in terms of the roles in the community. Thank you. And actually this is almost this big thing. It's a book, like a book. So Prince has put it right. He put the very important ones. Yeah, other aspect also I want to add. Yes. One thing is the viability of the government itself. You know the first product, the first, the first product, production of human being is giving best to children and caring for those children. Who is responsible for the individual person and the family? If the chief is the king. The citizen that you come and benefit after becoming H6 and you want to take him or her to school, somebody has to give best to it. That is the site. Also, economics. If that family is not productive enough to satisfy themselves and mobilize wealth and be able to pay taxes, where will the government get resources? It is possible now because we are in transition. People will hear that there is a national oil being. You sell it for salaries or sell it for rent. No, that money has to go to treasury. Being given to the citizen, multiply the money, giving you money, you multiply and you pay taxes. How do you multiply money? Three of us change money. That is multiplication. We create and cash value of the money and then we pay taxes to the government. This is done by the citizen. I am not saying it theoretically. It is written in article 37, the whole of article 37. By the way, sauce was done is a multinational and multi-regional because it is defined in article 14. Also, unity is saying there is no way we can have unity in sauce done without consideration of ethnicities, cultural communities and cultures and beliefs are represented. The national government should represent the three greatest states. Each state has to represent the communities which are there and you go down. So it is already written. The question is that we are not talking about politicians. People are not talking about 26. They are not talking on constitution making. We will be looking at the constitution of making after the break. Let's go for a break shortly. Thank you for tuning in. This is a democracy in action and we are looking at the role of traditional leadership in good governance. The kind of government is looking to achieve is a democratic one. Here we have discussed that it is important for traditional authority to be involved in the processes. Right now, the process that is very key is the peace process which includes constitutional making and there are very many articles that stipulate that it is important to include the traditional leaders because they are the custodians of the customary structures. They are the ones who are able to mobilize the people. They are the ones who know the traditional justice systems in place in the communities. They are the ones who are on the ground to support the livelihoods of the people in different ways. To sum it up, Prince Adel said they are the government of the community. So after the break, if you have a question, you can definitely call in and ask if you have a question right now. You can send it to this number that is 0 9 1 2 1 7 7 1 4 1. So stay tuned. Don't go away. You are listening to Radio Miraya, The Voice of Peace. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome back. This is Democracy in Action. And as we continue with today's topic, which is traditional leadership in good governance, shortly are the opening lines for you to call in and ask your questions. But first, I just want to ask this question, are women and youth included in traditional leadership and why is that important at all? In respect to youth, imagine in South Sudan, we don't have actually basic contradictions. We don't have ideological problem. We don't have religious problems. We don't have racial racial problems. We have non-basic, which is that we are not one nationality. And even one nationality didn't keep some other one. So then, God, we are 73 and maybe more. Now, you can see our leaders because they don't have ideological problem. And they don't go toward themselves. So they are full as that there is a problem between Chiluca and Norway and other ones. Yes, there are some challenges, scattering and other things, but those are things caused by it. But who are the ones doing the fighting? They use it. So if you engage the youth, you are certain. So is this the way? Yes, you have to engage the youth. When you say you have to engage the youth, that means that currently they are not in the structures. They are even being full, that you have 15%, or why should they have a racial? And they are the majority. South Sudan is 75% youth. This is a voting power. They can vote in a young man. They can vote in an old woman. They can vote in an old, them themselves, give them the authority to, and they are the working force. You see any political party? You have the youth wing, which are doing so. Why? Why? Putting them into sleep that I will give you. And we say the future is for children. Then let them determine the future. All right. Thank you for that. And what about women? Yes. Women have finished. Women as a cultural prince would say, but I want to add some little things. Women, as a political activist myself, I knew the role of women in political. They see things holistically. They don't see things. They just ignore aspect. Women also, they do values. What do you mean when you say they see things holistically? Okay. So they don't ignore negative things for just only deciding on something. Men risk, men risk, women don't risk. So they look at the whole picture. They look at the whole picture. And they are very concerned about the safety of this. And they could sacrifice everything. Even they can, they can fall back and allow dialogue. Men don't. Prince Adele, in your context, I wanted to speak from experience. Do you have women involved in the traditional leadership? Yeah. Thank you very much. When we say traditional leaders, it means we are processing of community and community. Never one day is split between men and women. So the two are very important and are basic for everything in the community. So rights starting from the marriage arrangement, raising the children, participating in other cultural events. So you can see here everybody play a role, take a role in achieving those things. So when we talk about traditional leadership here, if you take away the actual basic setting of a community where you have families and neighbors, I'm talking about the leadership structures where there's a set of leaders who have been assigned roles to oversee in the community. Do you have women in those positions? Yeah. For example, it takes like the Azan de Kingdom. Our structure now is also included women in a certain level of sub-chief. There's a woman. You can see when our king was coronated, we pay a first visit to his excellency solvakirme. I did. Among the delegate, there was one woman, which was actually a chief in Andayanville. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Examples. Thank you for that. That's what I wanted. All right. Now you can call in if you have a question. The numbers dial 0 9 1 2 0 6 7 8 7 9. Was 0 9 1 2 0 6 8 1 0 1 or 0 9 1 2 0 6 7 9 2 9. We have a caller reading me right. Hello. Yeah. Good morning. Good morning. What's your name? This is the ending involved. Go ahead and ask your question. Yeah. My question is to the Prime Minister in the Kingdom of Anday King. I'm asking him that the Kingdom setting of kingdoms is the difference between the political setting. So, for instance, when the transition leaders wanted to bring to preserve this culture and with today's situation where a human rights issues is contradicting the transition. How are you overcoming this? Because have you as a kingdom allowed these human rights activities going to the kingdom and say let we can do that and let women do that and this that how do you do and how do you deal with them and how do you give them right to regulate advocate for women women rights. Thank you very much. Thank you. Let's take another caller reading me right. Hello. Yes. Good morning. Luca Caden and the transitional leaders in the studio with you. Thank you. Thank you for joining in. What's your question? Yes, Andrea. Go ahead. I want to have a question to. Consitional leaders in the studio. Fair constitutional part. Transitional leaders. Leaders. How many how we all for a person to be qualified to be a ship or succeed needed from him people? How many people? When he's needed from a person to become a ship or a tech ship? Thank you very much. Two. Two. The two instead bring a huge ship in this country without there is some going of a big bull and by a close and in himself with this opponent holding that position in the community. Is it right or not? It is not right. We should have to clear the transitional leaders works in this country. Could you repeat your second question? I'm saying, huh? Mm-hmm. Fair, the two instead brought a huge ship. Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. And even one person having his family has a ship there. Thank you. Thank you. That's clear now. I buy it with my money. Is it right for a person to be a ship with his only wife or his children? Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Andrea Camillo. I'm going to ask a chill to answer the second question and then the young next question will go to you, Prince Tadeo. We are time bad. So, yes, go ahead. Yes. The tradition I thought of leaders, Andrea is complaining of sudden bad practices. But Andrea himself did not read local government act 2009. So, yes, go ahead. So, he should read it. And there, there is a... So, what does it say? It says about the size of the family, the size of the ship, the size of the executive ship, the size of the permanent ship and role and the status. So, there is something that I picked that he said that some people claim that they used money to get the status. That's why I said there are some bad practices. You cannot blame the tradition. I thought it would be this. And these bad practices, because the tradition I thought leaders are supposed to be involved in... By the way, there is already a mistake. The national parliament is supposed to be tricomeral. But there is national council of tradition, totally the switches, with the intellectuals have not included. The state is supposed to be bicomeral. So, the laws of the state should involve tradition, so they regulate themselves. Okay. More right. That's very clear. Let's talk about the issue of practices, cultural practices, that contradict human rights. And some of them are literally basic human rights. What do you have to say about that? Thank you for this question. First of all, the traditional authority is flexible. The modern traditional authority is flexible. One reason that it is working under the national government, under the state. The state, there is constitution as well. And also, there is other parallel laws that govern people, like the human rights, the child rights for education, women, and so long. So, we in the kingdom, our first priority is to preserve our culture. Not the human rights. Anything that fall negatively on our culture is not entertained. So, when you talk about flexibility, could you maybe give an example? Example, like before, according to our tradition, the girl can marry at certain from 10 to 11, she is right to marry. But now there is reform, also in the traditional authority. We give chance for, we encourage girls' education. This is there. We also very strictly an issue of abortion, for example. So, it is not allowed. But we put it very strictly that this kind of practice is not accepted because it is costing life, war again, and also putting unborn. We are putting the mother also at risk and all this. And we are also concerned of the medicines that ladies are taking for, to prevent them, to the family planning. Family planning and all this. So, our role is to ensure that which categories that deserve that family planning, not live with openly. You cannot just go to the market and buy a family planning, there should be a concrete reason for you, why you want to take this. So, everything must be regulated. Okay. That is subject to more discussion indeed. And so now, because of time, I'm going to ask Achille to just look at some of the good practices. One of them, one of the bad practices Andrea Camila mentioned. So, what are the good practices in terms of traditional leadership? Clearly, some cultures have been looked at and they violate human rights. And so, what are the good practices in this case? We talked about flexibility as well, which I think falls in. So, yes, Achille, come in. Okay. The best thing is what Prince said in communal life, this issue of flexibility. Because by the end of the day, it's about consensual. So, if there is something people disagree on it, people will discuss and will leave it. So, that is the most important, is the great value. So, it is not about individual dictating. Ours is the traditional authority when it comes to human rights is also inclusive. And one of the things the human rights against is death sentence. We don't have death sentence in the customary law. Here, there are bad things that we cannot over. That's why we are modern. And that was the every society is subject to improving. So, these things should be left to the traditional. We present to them and we ask them to change. We cannot take them away because simply because we felt that there is something wrong. We are throwing away a baby with death and water. So, we give them this and they are changing. I tell you, they are changing. They are transforming. Like an example, we have a customary law project. So, before it is passed, we engage civil society to debate the community. So, that customary law be something relevant and can serve the community better. So, this is the process. How we come up with there is a lot to unpack when it comes to cultural practices, customary law, traditional leadership. And we are time bad right now. And so, finally, as we conclude, I want to just get some of your comments in terms of the constitution making process in about a minute each. What are the ways that, what are your suggestions going forward in terms of including the traditional leaders in the process? My first request is, let South Sudan not repeat the mistake of Sudan, whereby the traditional leader left out of concession making. So, if the transitional transition recognized the role of traditional leaders, we must be included in the process. Thank you very much. Secondly, is because of time, there is so long things that we need to be corrected. Like in the constitution, they call the traditional leader, other stakeholders. So, that means to be corrected. We are the basic, we are the owner of the. Also, we are also advertising for creation of national quarter. For the traditional leadership. Yes. Okay. Come around. In one minute. One minute. Three things. One thing. Our president is doing the right thing. It's reaching out. And it has reached out to many and other people. It has to, but the president also has to reach out and bring in national court. Okay. He's written the constitution. We have to apply a consistency. Yeah. Consist one unit. Define everybody as an entity. And then they present with written constitutional clauses to be looked into by the national concierge of your commission. Not them writing the constitution. All right. Transitional. Thank you very much. Council for traditional leaders. Thank you very much. We've come to the end of democracy in action today. Thank you for coming. And we have the news at the top of the hour. Hopefully, we'll speak on this again. Thank you.