Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard

Daniel Jones' farewell, Brian Burns on Giants' locker room, Sterling Shepard and the Bucs

Duration:: 1h 57m
Broadcast on:: 22 Nov 2024
Audio Format:: other

New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard discusses Daniel Jones' emotional goodbye press conference to the Giants and the locker room's reaction, including a poignant comment by Brian Burns, ahead of a Week 12 game against the Bucs. Pat takes all fan questions and forecasts where the Giants go from here @Bleav. SUBSCRIBE to the @PLonNFL YouTube page to get the latest Giants updates and news delivered directly to you, and to participate in regular LIVE Q&A chats with Pat. Purchase a Super Chat or Super Sticker to have your comments elevated to the top of the feed and have Pat answer your question FIRST! Watch the full video of this @Bleav podcast on Pat's YouTube Channel. Find Pat also on 'X' (@PLeonardNYDN), Instagram (@PLonNFL) & TikTok (@PLonNFL). Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is brought to you by MyBookie. It’s MyBookie’s 10th year anniversary, and they’re rolling out the red carpet for bettors, including Risk-Free Thursdays and weekly no-sweat bets all season long. Use the promo code 'PATSPICKS' here to get your first deposit of $50 or more matched 100% up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your Football season a winning season with MyBookie! Bet Anything, Anytime, Anywhere. Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is also sponsored by @BoomChaga and @Estate98Coffee. BOOM Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune-boosting antioxidants and heart-healthy compounds. Go to BoomChaga.com and use the code TALKINBALL25 to get a 25% discount on your first Subscribe and Save Order. Estate98 Coffee is a specialty coffee concentrate that's perfect when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes less than 10 seconds to make a delicious Estate 98 iced or hot coffee, it’s great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order.

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Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Talkin' Ball Live with Pat Leonard. I am the New York Daily News NFL columnist and Giants Beatwriter as well as the host of the Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard podcast here on the Believe Network. Thanks for joining. Thanks for being here. Thanks for talking. Giants and NFL with me every week during the weekdays as we cover practices and I go into the locker room and gain the pulse of the team and then, of course, every weekend when the Giants go on the field and they try to win, whether it's Thursday, Sunday, or Monday, we always do our post-game live from the stadium, from the press box where I come out of the locker room and tell you what Brian Dable and the players are saying, give you injury updates and analysis, and always the first one from the stadium bringing you what's really going on. And we start there because I walked out of the locker room on Thursday here November 21st, 2024, having talked to Brian Burns, and I know we're going to talk about Daniel Jones' press conference, his farewell essentially to the organization, and we'll break down what we heard from the quarterback who has been demoted to number four on the depth chart, even behind Tim Boyle, the recently signed third stringer because the Giants don't want to take any risk, as Jones said, with the injury guarantee in his contract for 2025. But I want to start with a brief conversation I had with Brian Burns but a telling one here on Thursday in the locker room. I asked him two questions before our open locker room period was over, probably will end up continuing this conversation on Friday. But I thought it was really interesting in the context of, yes, Daniel Jones has been benched, demoted, shut down. Yes, this is an awkward and confusing situation. But what matters most is how the rest of the team now responds in these final seven weeks, particularly as it relates to the job securities of Joe Shane and Brian Dable. I asked Brian Burns this, how has the team reacted to Daniel Jones' demotion and to this awkward confusing situation? His answer was at first, I would think everybody was taken off guard a little bit. I wouldn't say people expected it. But I feel like after a while, everybody knows what type of business this is and how quick things can change. So I feel like things went to the regular program after everything transpired. So saying, you know, some confusion, but guys understand eventually, listen, things that we don't want to happen happen, that's the league, that's the business. So they get back to the grind. And I talked to other people, people in the locker room, players in the locker room who said, they don't like it. But you have your own career, you have to put good football on tape, you have to focus on yourself. So even if there's not a lot of confidence in the operation and in, frankly, in the team's chances, whether it's because they can't score a lot of points or they're giving up too many explosive plays on defense, you still have to take care of yourself. And so that's where they go mentally in order to get through a situation like this. But here's the problem. I asked Brian Burns a second question. I said, do you think that the day the giants here are still doing what's best for the team to win games? He looked at me, he said, that's not really my call. I mean, they must see something. I don't know. I really don't know. That was a really concerning quote, not a surprising one to me. I think it echoed what I've heard from several other players, both on and off the record, reminded me a little bit of a quote from Darius Slaton, who told me as I was in there reporting for the New York Daily News yesterday, Wednesday, November 20th. He said, I think ultimately anybody can respect and get behind any decision that's made. When you ask yourself the question, does this help us win yes or no? And the answer is yes. You can get behind any decision that is made as long as that answer is yes. When that answer starts being, I don't know or know, it doesn't matter how you did or what you did, because at the end of the day, our job is to win. Nobody's going out there risking their body to lose. Being a part of three regimes now, so to speak, and I'm not necessarily referring to now, I just know in the past there's been decisions made where the answer to that question has been no or very blurry. And that's when it starts to be like, well, what are we doing here? Because we're all wasting our time if we're not trying to win. Telling quotes from veterans in what is a mostly young locker room, that there's uncertainty, the belief is shaky, the trust has eroded, and that the players right now, what they're trying to hang their hat on is, like I said, doing their own jobs, doing it as best as they can, putting good football on tape, whether it's because they want to make a case to come back next year and have a job, or whether they're pending free agents trying to make strong cases for themselves. They're all trying to do what's best for themselves, what's best for them as a player, and hopefully that helps the greater whole and the team. But it's an interesting dynamic because I talked to several sources in the building also, who told me that as the pressure is ratcheting up, Brian Dable and the coaching staff, they're actually turning up the pressure and the frustration as far as how they're coaching the defense when it comes to giving up big plays. And that's an interesting dynamic because let's face it, last year, that's the exact same thing we saw. This is an NFL worst offense right now. They're the 32nd out of 32 teams ranked in scoring 15.6 points per game. They just shut down their starting quarterback, demoted him to number four, and he's probably not even going to be on this team very longer based on what he said, and we'll get into all of that in regards to his press conference. But what we saw last season, scapegoating, finger pointing, frustration articulated with the defense while the defense is going out there with their shoulder slump saying, well, even if we get a stop here, we know that we're if we give the ball back to the offense, it's not like we're going to score any points. Now, we haven't seen this on the field yet. You obviously have to open the door to, okay, Tommy DeVito, Tyrone Tracy Jr, Malik neighbors talking today about, you know, DeVito can make some anticipatory throws, get the ball out before I get out of my break. We have that in our offense. Let's see where it goes, that kind of thing. So yeah, there's a chance, but I don't gain as I talk to players, a lot of confidence in the fact that the offense is going to score a lot of points. I don't gain confidence from talking to players that they think this is the best decision for this team to win. And my understanding from conversations is that, you know, with table coaching for his job and with Joe Shane's job, in my opinion, on the line too, as much as the Giants organization doesn't want to make those changes. This is teetering on the edge. And with the Buccaneers and the Cowboys coming up here one, two Sunday and then Thursday on Thanksgiving late afternoon, and I'll be there in Arlington, Texas to chronicle it. This has potential to go completely off the rails extremely quickly. Drew Locke was upset, though diplomatic, the players on edge, confusion, frustration, and trying to put their best face on, let's do the best 111 job I can for my career, and hopefully to help this bigger picture here look a little bit more palatable because as one player said to me, we basically have like a whole college season left. They have seven games left in this season. That is one of the most jarring parts of all of this. Even when you sat there and listened to Daniel Jones at his farewell press conference, here he was the starting quarterback, a franchise quarterback saying goodbye to the Giants organization and their fans with seven games remaining in a season. But that's the position he was been put in by the general manager, by the coach, Daniel Jones sounding like somebody who might not be with the team much longer at all. And we'll get into all of what he said regarding trying to stay on the field, what he tried to do to keep himself on the field, his disappointment, his appreciation, taking the high road in situations when asked about Joe Shane and other topics regarding the disappointment of this demotion. But I think this is teetering on the edge. I've told you guys from the get go and listen, I've been wrong plenty of times when it comes to the prediction business. But based on all of my information analysis and reporting, where this has gone and where this is headed is where I have told you this was likely going to go and where I predicted this was going to go from the off season to the start of the season and on thereafter. And I think one of my biggest disappointments, but also one of the more telling elements of this operation and why it's set up to fail is how the people, how the players in this building get treated by the front office, by the general manager in certain situations, word gets around, guys put their heads down. They don't want to say everything that's on their mind, but they say just enough to show you that it's there and there's more beneath the surface. Say Quan Barkley, obviously being the loudest one, although he's now at the Philadelphia Eagles and not in their locker room. But you heard Dexter Lawrence say he still thinks Daniel Jones is the best quarterback on the team. You heard Daria Slaton tell me in the New York Daily News that he still believes just as much as ever and the Giants believe just as much as ever that Daniel Jones gives them a good chance to win. And Slaton feels himself that two of their losses are on the supporting cast and not on Daniel Jones. So this is the dynamic. Of course, they have a chance to roll the ball out there on Sunday against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and show me and show a lot of people differently than what I'm telling you and what I'm reading and what I'm feeling and what I know. But I think that we are given the way that these games are situated Sunday, Sunday, Thursday, given the stakes, given the awkwardness and the frustration and the anxiety and the confusion and the lack of belief and trust developed here. We are too bad losses away here from complete chaos and from John Marrah potentially having to go back on that vote of confidence even quicker than we may have anticipated. But that's where we start this episode of talking about live with Pat Leonard. We have a lot to talk about a lot to get into. It doesn't have to be giants as well. Obviously, we welcome all NFL talk. I have this beautiful looking Browns, Pittsburgh Steelers, Thursday night football game on prime sports, NFL on prime video there. 10, six Browns late third quarter as I speak with the snowflakes falling. But want to thank our sponsors first, my bookie rolling out the red carpet for sports betters, making you guys money last week James Winston is playing in this game tonight, made us some money on our NFL sprinkles. Usually do those giant sprinkles, those prop bets where I'm suggesting you throw a little coin on some longer shop bets that I feel good about. James Winston made us some money last week. Two for four on Pat's picks. I stretched it from three to four. I would have gone above 500 if I kept it to three. That's my ego talking there, adding the Browns game in New Orleans, thinking I was smarter than I was, but definitely way above 500 against the spread overall above 500 on Pat's picks and making you some money every week with our props. So here's what you do, go to the link in all my social media profiles, use that promo code, Pat's picks and get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Let's win with my bookie. Let's keep winning with my bookie this football season. Thanks for being here, everybody. And thanks for joining me with my bookie. Remember, the best way to support us here is to support our sponsors. My bookie, BoomChog up and estate 98 coffee. That brings me to BoomChog a mushroom super drink, which is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. You can easily pour this natural liquid supplement into any of your favorite drinks. 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Go to estate 98.com/talking ball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. That brings me to we're going to roll out our estate 98 giant trivia question of the night. Every talking ball live we do a giant trivia question and whoever gets it correct first in the comment section wins a free bottle of estate 98 coffee. Here's what you'll do. I will ask you the giant trivia question the first person to answer it correctly in our queue in our comment section. I will mark you as the winner and then you will direct message me your address or a PO box wherever you want it mailed at my Instagram account. The handle there is the same as YouTube PL on NFL and I will send you a free bottle of estate 98 coffee. So here is our giants estate 98 trivia question of the night. Okay the giants obviously have had a lot of great past catchers in their history. Your trivia question is who ranks fifth all time in receptions among giants receivers. The trivia question is who ranks fifth all time in all-time giants receptions for past catchers among giants receivers. So that is during the players time as a giant who ranks fifth all time in receptions. And as those comments roll in I want to thank Patrick Evans here for reminding everybody to hit that subscription button and the like button. So please subscribe to our channel if you don't already. This is on the Believe Network sponsored and brought to you by the Believe Network here on the talking ball with Pat Leonard YouTube channel. PL on NFL is our handle here. Please subscribe. Please hit the like button while we are live that helps build engagement. It tells people who are out there on YouTube searching for giants and NFL content that we're here and that we're going and that we're live and that we welcome more people into this growing community. And then like I said best way to support us is by supporting our sponsors my bookie boom chaga in the state 98 but another great way to support us is through the super chats and John has dropped in the first super chat of the night. And so what will happen is if you drop a super chat or a super sticker that means paying for a super chat or super sticker in this chat I will go right to your comment or question next in the queue. So your comment or question jumps to the top and I answer it immediately thanks to you investing in in the time we're putting in here in the content we're bringing you and I honestly can't thank you guys enough for doing that. So John we're going to get right to you. First I want to acknowledge the winner of our trivia question. This is the estate 98 giants trivia question over the night and the answer for who is ranked fifth all time in giants past catchers is that's right honor sterling shepherd ship as he says and I'm going to also give credit to Benji for getting it right as well. So hunter and Benji get the answer correct it is sterling shepherd all time receptions by giants receivers a Bonnie tumor first tiki barber second Joe Morrison third Odell Beckham junior fourth sterling shepherd fifth and obviously this is a timely and relevant trivia question so for those of you who had other guesses those were all good guesses right because a lot of the names you guys throughout there were in that top five but I got a little tricky here and I tied it to the buccaneers I tied it to sterling shepherd young shep as we call him coming back to met life stadium to face his old team probably a little bit of revenge on his mind for essentially relegating him to the to the nether regions of the locker room in the depth chart last season you know kind of treating him like they're treating Daniel Jones now interestingly enough sterling shepherd also is fifth all time among giants receivers in most consecutive games with a catch so that's a money tumors first tiki barber second Jeremy shocky third Ike Hilliard fourth and sterling shepherd fifth so shep fifth all time in giants past receptions all time as a giant and also fifth all time in most consecutive games with a past reception so hunter and Benji both of you please direct message me your address and hunter I believe I may have yours already from winning a previous trivia question but direct message me your average address on instagram in in my dms um it's pl on nfl is the handle there and um look forward to a free bottle of the state 98 coffee coming your way so without further ado we get into the queue john drops a ten dollar super chat thank you so much john cheers to you by the way it's a glass of red wine i've been really been bringing drinks to the chat as often lately as i used to uh the old fashion should be coming back here especially around thanksgiving christmas the holiday season definitely gonna have to use uh you know start mixing start start getting getting uh my hands dirtier back in in the uh in the old-fashioned game so john says i know money talks but how can joe shane be confident that potential free agents would want to come here seeing how he treated sequon talking shit about his own quarterback that he signed and now lock also decks doesn't seem happy well john this is part of the reason why now you know you could have a situation obviously where players don't like a general manager but it doesn't result in it materially affecting the bottom line on the field and so the players could all say well we hate this guy but if you start winning games on the field everything can like simmer down and and die down and and then if you start winning games players could come and sign here again right so there's always the chance of that happening um not not just with the giants but like with any team where that's the case but i do think that this is this is my opinion based on the information and and a lot of the elements that you just discussed there in your chat uh in your comment and thank you so much for that super chat i think that from my sense word is word has gotten around you know the locker room players in the legal and other teams that what the giants are um how Joe Shane and the Giants front office have handled these different situations and you know agents and what you know certain agents opinions would be of how things are going how their clients are being treated right remember it's not just the players talking it's also the agents who then have other clients right so from what i can see yes you can throw money at guys and money can talk but it's if you look at the giants right now as far as the free agents they've been able to attract and not be been able to attract right the bigger money guys it's been you know Runyon jr okerike but brian burns remember that was a trade that wasn't a signing would brian burns have signed here if he was a free agent i don't know but you know we don't have an ample amount of evidence that Joe Shane given what we know what these players know what some of these agents have learned and like the drew lock case is one that really kind of jumps out more recently i think that's a fair question you ask and i think that's a question that is fair to ask and to monitor going into this spring into this offseason i mean there is definitely an element of the giants front office and ownership being dug in on trying to stay behind and support this front office and this regime they don't want to keep starting over but i don't think you can ignore these types of developments and realities with your with your front office and with the people who are running your organization i think you need to think you need to treat people the right way or else it eventually comes back to you great question john thank you for the super chat the brown stretching out their lead on the pittsburgh steelers 18 to 6 early fourth g men says good evening pat do you believe there is a chance daniel jones demands a release from the giants in the short future and the giants end up ripping the band-aid off and releasing him in season good question g men it definitely sound like that could be the case i mean daniel saying goodbye like this clearly seems to indicate well it definitely indicates as as i've told you that he's shut down he's done he's not going to be playing for the giants again but it also clearly seems to indicate that uh you know he does not intend to be around here much longer he did not say oh i'm leaving next week or i'm asking for my release but he was asked all of those questions because he was speaking about the giants in the past tense and he essentially said you know i'm processing it all right now right now i'm trying to do what's best for the team but i'm also thinking about what's best for myself for now i'm trying to help tommy help the team i think it seems likely that when we come back from thanksgiving at the latest we're probably not going to be seeing daniel jones in the locker room anymore and he might not be on the team anymore that's just that's just an educated guest based on how he was talking about it the fact that they have these two quick games back to back um it could be he made reference once or twice to his agents and joshane negotiating and talking about different elements of this decision and what he tried to accomplish so i think there's a good chance that he was asked directly are you asked you know you considering asking for your release and he essentially said you know i'm thinking about a lot of things so i think there's a good chance that's being negotiated in some way you know are there restrictions on what his release would look like on places like where he could or couldn't sign if he did if he was released he did say specifically i love being part of a team i think that was one of his ways of saying you know if i'm not going to be a part of this team i want to be a part of a team you know that's also what it felt like he was saying um you know i think that for the giants the look of having daniel jones on the field working as a scout team safety in a walkthrough period is humiliating uh you know watching him get emotional on the podium after and then and watching him be relegated to that role and not taking any snaps at all um in any kind of scout team capacity and then working individuals and that's it and then on thursday not doing really anything and individuals at all and working as a scout team defender you know this is just a bad look so for the giants at this point with daniel telling us and telling everybody goodbye you know they might as well at this point so you know good for daniel in in forcing it that way if that's what he's doing here nyc says what in the world is going on this is an unimaginable debacle you know i think it is nyc one thing that stands out to me you know the injury guarantee the need to possibly sit your quarterback and bench him if he's not working out because you're going to move on and you have that injury guarantee right those types of and then you know the team being two and eight daniel not playing his best and not making certain plays and key situations that could have helped the team and all that you know in theory prior to this season i think in the giant's minds it made logical sense that it could play out this way and we could execute it in a certain way right and even as recently as a month ago you know even i and you know you could see as somebody close to it like okay if it keeps going in this direction like the silver lining for the giants could be hey we have to bench daniel jones we're losing games you know as long as we kind of stay afloat we'll have a high draft pick we can draft our next quarterback that's going to serve us right but i think in practice nyc the way they've done it and seeing it happen seeing the players and the team's reaction and also let's face it compounding the fact they just lost to the panthers before the buy so it's worst case not to mention saquon barkley a top three nvp candidate in my opinion right now like it's a it's a worst case scenario you know so i think the way i see it is in practice it sounded like yeah okay that would lead to this step would lead to that step and then this would happen but then when you sit here and you actually watch it unfold and you see the human element of it and how it impacts daniel also let's face it it's become 30 times more awkward and revealing of their shatters or scatter shot operation that they skipped over drew lock for devito here you know it's almost reinforcement of yeah it's not a plan it's a mess that's that's how i see it too it's kind of like the confluence of all of those ridiculous realities ken says ironic that the weak eli advances in the hall of fame process his replacement will be released pat your question really tiered him up although he made over a hundred million as a below average quarterback he deserved better um yeah ken and i you know i asked that question because listening to him talk even from the his opening statement i could tell that the thing that was pulling at his heartstrings the most was and i also know daniel well enough to know like even when he said i want to be on the field you know he doesn't want to be on the field just because he wants to win that yes he that is a reason he wants to be on the field because he loves trying to help his teammates win he's a great teammate like when i had that dinner with daniel jones several years ago one thing he told me at that dinner was he said pat anything i ever do anything i say at the podium and you know i'm always going to do what i think is in the best interest of the team so if i don't say what you're expecting me to say or you want me to say or the answer that you you know maybe you think i'm not being a hundred percent honest anything i'm doing is in the is it when in my mind is is this best for the team is this best my for my teammates that is how he is that's who he is you know i thought it was telling when he's he walked up there and he said you know i wrote some things down so i would say this the right right way that's who daniel jones is he wanted to do it the right way um you know yeah so the players and and his friends and his teammates they're what mean the most to him and you know i think their support of him in this in this moment you know clearly means the world to him and that's what really got him choked up yeah can interestingly enough to like reflecting on it in the moment i remember when the giants drafted daniel jones my lead to the story that night for the new york daily news was the giants loved eli manning so much they drafted him again and daniel obviously a different person different player um and clearly his giant's career is is getting cut short whereas eli went on to win the two super bowls but that daniel jones pick was motivated in part because dave gettelman and the giants saw a mobile eli in daniel jones right and so it's the continuation of the kind of the you know the eli saga the belief in those the traits that they saw in him they felt like they saw in daniel the one thing you know the one thing gettelman and the giants were right about was the makeup of this guy like personally as as a person you know he's got a great makeup and that's that was another hard thing about this press conference and about this whole situation is you know i mean i'm getting some pushback on on social media for writing it this way but you know a major takeaway of mine watching and listening to daniel and talking to him at this press conference was don't take for granted that you got the intangible and character part right with this guy's evaluation right like you know yes you need a better quarterback any better quarterback play he took ownership for the lack of performance all that right and all of that is true but you know you could easily get the character part of this wrong the next time you select a quarterback and you could argue that there have been some questionable draft picks in that department so far by this regime when it comes to makeup and reliability and consistency right it's kind of been talent over some of those things and then a lot of the talent hasn't panned out consistently or at all either so don't take for granted that that they got this right with this guy you might not get it right with the next guy peters town says it looks like daniel jones wanted to say what was really on his mind about the benching but kept it civil and showed why he is a better man than dabel peters town i think that's a pretty perceptive thing he took the high road when it came to joe shane and brian dabel i will say it was interesting to me however that what he did take the high road especially on the joe shane question that i asked him you know i asked him about joe shane being caught on camera saying it must be nice not to have to look for a quarterback to the bear general manager so daniel took the high road he said this is the nfl my job is to prepare and play and play well that's what you focus on you try to focus on building a team being part of it being the leader as the quarterback getting everybody and going in the right direction and then he said you tried to ignore anything that distracts from that and takes away from that that's your job as a quarterback to do that so he took the high road and didn't go after joe shane and when i asked did he show you the appropriate amount of respect but the comment where he said you try to ignore anything that distracts from that and takes away from that i think was an illusion and a respectful one but an illusion to the element of you know while while all this bs was happening yeah i was still trying to win i think that's that's how i took that nyc says shane's presser saquon's thursday night football daniel jones benching locker room leaks scout safety speech and tears all since losing to the panthers what a nightmare for mara i think he'll change his mind about changes yes i do um i think like i said at the time i'll say it again what john mara told us there was in that vote of confidence in late october what he told us was he wasn't going to make any changes in season he also said i don't anticipate making any changes in the off-season so he left the door open for changes in the off-season now it's still possible changes happen in season i did ask my kafka by the way there were any changes in his role coming out of the by play calling otherwise he said no he's going to have the exact same role so um we'll see we'll see where that goes he did seem to be a little bit more active while dabel was kind of just watching during like routes on air and some concepts today that was kind of interesting caught my eye but kafka says nothing's changing um so all right let's see but yes nyc i do i think i think the coach is gone i think because this is i i think this season's going to continue down the wrong tracks and so i think i think this season is going to continue to be a disaster and i therefore think the coach is gone and i also think the gm will be gone uh but obviously if the giants scrape together two or three wins and you know that kind of thing and the organization already wants to bring them back and is trying to find reasons and looking for and scouring the earth for reasons to bring them back then they could rationalize it but i personally and i've been telling you guys this from before the year you know i was vilified by a lot of people for asking dabel in washington in week two if he's concerned about his job when they were owned to there and they lost in large part because of his and the organizations mismanagement of the kicker and of that game and it's because i i knew the situation was that he was coaching for his job if things went really poorly this year and so that's where we're at we're still there um let's see hunter says you're not going to find many more first-class athletes and daniel jones true professional wish him nothing but the best hate that it didn't work out manzo says the giants organization is embarrassing daniel jones with what they have what they are doing to him at practice they have no clue on how to handle their players that's very well said um yeah humiliating humiliating and daniel jones is just trying to do what he can to help his teammates you know that's why he's out there right now but i don't think we're gonna be able to see him out there that much longer candy man says i'm not feeling sorry for the 30 second quarterback making 40 million dollars a year but it's disgraceful how he was treated today at practice dabel and shane need to go total embarrassment to this franchise candy you said it man you said it yeah like i said in theory it sounded like hey you know um this is what we'll do if the season goes this way but in in practice the human element of it the idea that you're not running an effective enough operation on the field and you're not winning games and you lost to the panthers who are a complete laughing stock of an organization let alone a losing team you know it's all turned into the worst case scenario and candy first of all thank you so much for that support for that super chat i really appreciate you secondly you're absolutely right too about the first part of it you know this is a quarterback who in daniel acknowledge it himself right daniel said no one wants to win more than i do but i take full responsibility accountability for not being good enough for not making enough plays for us to win you know for uh you know we've had some good times but not enough and i take responsibility for that and even though it takes the whole group large part of it falls on the quarterback and it's on me so and yes he's made a lot of money giants paid him um you know obviously their quarterback evaluation skills also i mean they had judged daniel to be their franchise quarterback for a long time they bailed on them after two years they had judged drew lock to be a number two could compete with daniel for the starting job they don't even trust him to be the number two even though they left him as the number two all season so you know yes you're absolutely right um there's only so much you can feel sorry for when it comes to yes jones had a chance yes he got paid all those things but i think both things can be true candy right i think that's what you're saying and i agree with you both things can be true that daniel jones didn't play well enough and totally understandable why the giants are moving on it can also be true that they're not handling it the right way and this is embarrassing for the franchise and for the team as the pittsburgh steelers by the way are racing back into this game they score they're only down five and now they get a sack fumble and a recovery on the browns all right thanks again candy um let's see Todd says thank you daniel you're an exceptional young man deserved better i always rooted for you it's a sad day i hope you signed somewhere and succeed no quarterback could win here it's a complete mess manzo says to under the radar backup quarterbacks i would like to see on this team next year sam how and taylor heineke both have started in one games could be bridge quarterbacks or serviceable backups well both of those guys would be backups in my opinion so neither of those players would be the player that you are that do you have competing to start your week one game next season if you're in the you know stop gap place holder market for next season so i both of those guys have some talent but i wouldn't be planning on them like that neither of those guys is going to be your sam donnel next year i guess is my point from a from an effectiveness standpoint kylers says jones should go back home to carolina and play for the panthers he got benched after losing to the panthers is from north carolina i believe would be full circle yeah i definitely you know i i always i keep saying to people you know this is not no one's told me that daniel's interested in this or that this is coming or whatever i'm not reporting it but you know tennessee nashville for a guy from north carolina you know it's not quite like alabama florida you know uh georgia like south south but it's you know it's south enough uh you know it's it definitely feels like a place that daniel would fit in well would thrive and it's off the grid as far as a major market is concerned but it's big enough um it's an nfl franchise one with some some good years behind it and good history behind it and uh and a franchise that doesn't have a quarterback has some talent is continuing to build maybe it could be a bridge there um you know that kind of thing so that's an organization that jumps out to me i don't know if that that's where he would end up you know tomorrow i'm not saying that but that does feel like the kind of place that maybe like next season would be a fit for daniel jones as russell wilson a guy that the giants let walk out of the building as a free agent who signed for the minimum in pittsburgh throws the go ahead touchdown pass against the browns on thursday night football all right which jones the best says avec sad to see him so emotional today also very disappointing to see so many fans rooting for us to lose poverty fan base enamored with draft position and not winning shame yeah no and also and along with that a i would say it's also disappointing that i think the fan base also is taking a little bit of a cue that portion of the fan base i would say i think a lot of them are taking a cue from the organization in the sense that it's hard to tell if the team is it's like wait are we tanking by making this decision skipping over our second quarterback going to our third you know they're telling you that they're doing what it takes to win and you know that dabel needs to win some games and make some progress or else he's going to get fired so be crazy for them to be tanking but you can't tell by the results and by their actions whether they're they wouldn't mind losing because that's what it looks like i mean i read you the brian burns quote where i asked him if he thinks that the organization is doing um you know the best thing for the team's chances to win and i told you guys the quote at the beginning of the chat i'll tell you again that's not really my call burn said i mean they must see something i don't know i really don't know Antonio says any practice squad moves i'm expecting this week um there already have been a bunch Antonio you had you know Tim Boyle obviously the quarterback added you had the tight end Jordan Murray from Hawaii added to the practice squad Tyree Phillips the offensive tackle offense of lineman obviously added to the mix um so those are three names to keep an eye on that are now in the fold and might as well share the injury report with you guys too you know from a from an exes and o's projecting this game and previewing this game standpoint you know some meaningful uh some injury items to talk about number one is on the buccaneer side um not good news for the giants here that the buccaneers are going to get back two of their top players who haven't been playing due to injury jamelle dean their best cornerback and Mike Evans their best receiver and a future hall of famer right so you know jamelle dean a physical player a big corner a guy that the Giants tried to sign a couple years ago in free agency um and had high prioritized and uh he was high on their list before he ended up resigning and staying in Tampa getting those two players back bid for big for Tampa a team that's lost four games in a row and Tristan Worfs he sounds like he's going to be a game time decision the tackle um he's been banged up he's been limited but Mike Evans jamelle dean coming back going to make it all the more difficult for the Giants in this game also on the Giants end of things um you know most updated most up-to-date injury report so limited in practice today Bryce Ford Wheaton with an Achilles Dexter Lawrence with a knee they've been they've been resting Dexter um no clarity yet on why he didn't play at the start of the second half in Germany we haven't gotten an honest answer from anybody on that yet whether it was Dexter Bowen uh Dable like we just I don't think we're hearing the real story from them and their answers they're just keep talking about the rotation I don't believe them um and let's see we also have Darius Muasal hamstring injury limited Tyler Neuben the rookie safety with a back injury limited for a second straight day Dable says all these guys are gonna end up playing in the game um so he's not concerned about them being out at least that that was what he indicated we'll see the final injury report and then full participation today with injuries Matt Adams with a knee Theo Johnson with a back cave on tippido with a wrist he'll be back from his uh wrist surgery from his five-game absence Greg Van wrote in the right guard with an abdomen and then Drew Phillips was actually added to the injury report on Thursday with a hip injury but he was still a full participant so he's added with a hip but still a full participant so that's your giant surgery report um also remember here we are brought to you by my bookie boom chaga and estate 98 coffee uh my bookie rolling out the red carpet for sports betters this NFL season uh we use our promo code patspix at the link in all my social media profiles and you will get a 100 match on your first deposit of fifty dollars or more all the way up to a thousand dollars plus a ten dollar casino chip so every week you'll watch i pick three or four games against the spread those are pats picks for the week we also do our giant or NFL sprinkles on prop bets for you to drop some coin on some longer shot bets that i think are going to hit we've been hitting pretty consistently at least half of those we give out james winston went across the board on his over his last week i gave out three of them they all hit um so stick with me my full picks of the week in the early spreads are always in the new york daily news so you can always find my picks against the early spreads in the new york daily news on Thursdays so my pick for this thursday night game was stealers minus four and a half so sweating it out a little bit here stealers only up one with five and a half minutes to go but my bookie's been making you money this football season bet anything anytime anywhere with talking ball with pat leonard and my bookie also brought to you by boom chaga mushroom super drink a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds use the promo code talking ball 25 or access it through the qr code in your screen you'll get a 25 off your first subscribe and save order right now that means a month's supply cost 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but haven't seen him in a uniform looking like smith marset for the time being schlotman sounds like he's close uh haven't seen him in a uniform either i know he's feeling better i don't know if they'll end up putting him on the field um and back in uniform or let it ride and let him get healthy uh but i know that he's close deontae johnson i would throw in that category as well the young linebacker he's actually been ready and physically good for a while feeling good not quite sure why they're not activating him and why he's being left on the side young promising player uh but you know definitely looking good as far as uh physically and how he's feeling all right john says whose idea was for daniel to give that farewell speech and the organization forced him to speak no uh my best my best um take away from this my best i what i can sense and what i feel and from talking to people is that this was daniel jones and his camp but this was daniel jones this was daniel jones i think holding the giant's feet to their to the fire a little bit and saying if you're not gonna make me a part of the team then you're gonna make me a part of some team is how it came across to me um you know daniel jones actually wouldn't speak yesterday he he said he wanted to speak today instead he also spoke in a tent in the field house away from the rest of the locker room um i do think he didn't talk on wednesday because he didn't want to take away from davito's press conference and his day and the team's focus on the week uh when it came to like preparation for the week and the starting quarterback talking so really being a good teammate to the end diggy says man that hurt like hell to see deejay's response to your question pat you could tell he felt all those years of dedication and in failure in that moment it was truly heartbreaking to see in my opinion yes it was diggy mike raw says dabel has lost the locker room in my opinion i think shane and dabel john says i find it messed up for dabel to force deejay to play safety for scow team just let him go home and be done with it starting to really not like dabel and everything wink said is coming to light everything wink said is coming to the light how about this how about dabel trying to pretend everything's fine with dextor laren saying oh i just talked to him everything's fine it's like that sounds a lot like the oh yeah me and wink all we fight the only thing we fight over is the last slice of pizza right sounds a lot the same doesn't it and listen i'm not saying dexton went and dabel are fighting tooth and nail i am saying though that it's the same logic the same what it was last year was a lie right so is that a lie this year you know we saw dextor laren screaming on the sideline in pittsburgh we saw him not start the second half in germany you know we saw him on tuesday talk about you know a daniel's still the best quarterback you have to go along with it even if you don't agree with it so clearly feels like there's more there and yes wink martin dale um wasn't even what he said as much as like his leaving because of the toxic environment and my reporting on the toxic environment whether it was dabel with kafka dabel with martin dale and the rest of the coaching staff that toxicity remains joseph says good riddance jones yes they're definitely a semblance of the fan base that feels that way despite whatever the optics are um and you know i thought it was even even great of daniel to take the high road he knows that there's plenty of fans who don't want him anymore and have been booing him since the start of this season you know and before uh but he said you know he loves the fans and he appreciates them diggy says pat do you think tommy sends a message to tank to the locker room he's young and may have some upside it seems like the writing was on the wall forward dj i do think that um i do think that the guys who were here last year know that you know tommy caught some lightning in a bottle but like remember last year when the offensive line ended up having the second most sacks allowed in nfl history one reason for that was because when devito came in they were already allowing a lot of sacks before that but then when devito came in it got much worse because he was holding on to the ball whether it wasn't seeing downfield or holding on to it to take a sack rather than throwing the ball up and having it picked off whatever it was but their sack numbers went crazy and ballooned and it was clearly evidence of it being a quarterback stat and you know some of the offensive linemen who were here last year here this year and none of those you know they're all going to support tommy they like tommy tommy's a very well like teammate and player but look at it this way in training camp even though drew lock didn't play well enough to compete with daniel jones for his job or take his job drew lock got banged up and hurt he was still banged up the active number two quarterback in week one with devito only the emergency third because devito's camp he had a couple couple good throws and couple good days early in camp and then mostly his camp was not good and um the giants you know forget what i think the giants the way they treated him on the depth chart and just the football that i watched on the field you know they treated him like somebody they never intended to put on the field and they didn't want to put on the field so the players like tommy they've seen him catch light in the bottle before but at the same time and and Malik neighbors said he's got a steamer for an arm devito does never heard that one before that cracked me up but they also know that you know this organization hasn't treated tommy like a good quarterback or shown confidence in him prior to this and you know dabel couldn't even answer that devito's played better than lock and practice because he hasn't so like i you know it's if you're a player that's why you're asking questions mike says giants need to make a whole reset no doubt let's not draft another quarterback then fire the coach after his first season yeah joey b says everyone doubts pat but pat is always on point love it joey b thank you so much all right let's see sakari says jones has had all the chances in the world nothing wrong and how they handled the situation joseph says it's nonsense this team is three and 13 with jones he's thrown 70 touchdowns in 66 games he stinks he's always stunk yeah robert classic snowball game in cleveland that's right oh and the Steelers are punting i need them to cover come on pittsburgh uh let's see i'm a fan says if the giants beat the cowboys jerry jones will have a stroke so someone's getting fired after Thanksgiving right on one of the on one side or the other joey b says do you think dabel and joe are safe or are they on the hot seat and who's possible replacements i think they're on the hot seat they don't want to fire them but i do think they're both on the hot seat i think your first call has to beat a bell check i don't know if he'll say yes because i know he needs you know he needs he wants a semblance of control and to know he's not going to have his legs cut out from under him and you know he he can't say that based on the structure of the organization so but that would be my first call diggy says i don't disagree jones wasn't good enough and it's on him to play better and be the guy i'm defending his dedication to the team and believe it should be respected agree ray says daniel broke my heart today i believe i believed up to this year he's a great leader but lost his mojo yes janiel dones has officially been retired sakri says i can see it already if they still can't move the ball they will say it wasn't daniel jones's fault but the problem is still there this team doesn't have a real quarterback which i will blame on joe shane well if they can't move the ball that you're absolutely right there sakri is that if they can't still can't move the ball and still can't score it will be right it's not on daniel it'll also be what we've already seen it right the fact that they had to skip over drew lock their five million dollar signing shows you they don't have confidence in the guy that gave five million dollars to be the quarterback now right that's their fault ray says worst day since the coughlin press conference some bad ones in there but i hear i hear what you mean from a press conference standpoint joe b says just send me some coffee pat joe b you got to get your trivia you trip your game up you know what i mean you know i'll take care of you uh ray says the no throw on the flea flicker in germany was daniel's last straw yeah for sure silt says shepherd would have been nice if he could have gotten over injuries yeah be interesting to see though uh because listen he was cooking giant's defensive backs in practice and training camp last year even when the giants wouldn't play him in the games so um he's made some plays you know in tampa and um you know i'll tell you guys right now i mean i'll put this on social media too but the anytime sterling shepherd touchdown on sunday i met life stadium you can take that to the bank and the odds on that will probably be sky high i also like a buccaneer's defensive touchdown hunter says thanks again pat for the estate 98 i love estate 98 coffee both hot and cold all right hunter some people say they like the hot some people they say they like the cold you like it both just demonstrates that you can drink it both ways and it is satisfying gets the job done that's great to hear silt says all this football talk is making me hungry pat well i'm trying to do that i'm doing that intermittent fasting thing right now so i'm past the point where i can eat anything tonight had that early dinner so let's not start talking about food that'll get me going robert says winston is playing really well tonight yeah he's uh he's obviously been up and down but for the most part i think this is his third or fourth game he's had one dud but a lot of his other games he's played really well he did have that sack fumble but obviously that was a great pass rush from the Steelers um but yeah in these conditions i mean let's face it another quarterback the Giants could have signed and had ready behind daniel jones or frankly if you signed james winston had him in training camp could he have competed and beat out daniel jones right like there were so many other avenues the Giants could have gone here and not put themselves in this situation joseph says how do they treat daniel poorly drafted him higher than anyone would have paid him allowed him to stink a quarterback longer than anyone else would have that's fair for you to have that opinion obviously joseph and you know certainly he had a long leash and was drafted high and made a lot of money but you know it's just ways to handle people daniel jones is not the only one though joseph like we're not just talking about daniel jones when we say that it's you know it's sequan um it's nick mccloud it's nick gates you know you could run down the list a lot of players uh let's see creative says just release him lucas says yes that she safety shit at practice is humiliating and a classist act from the Giants what next mop the floors let's see um joseph said he's not a scout team defender he's standing with coaches in a spot where the opposing team may line up he's not defending anything he's not even moving so overblown well joseph not nothing overblown here i mean at least from my vantage point all i all i explain was during the walkthrough period where the offensive line in devito and the running backs are installing daniel and some of the coaches are working off the cards and running scout team defense so yes they're not playing real football he doesn't have he's not like laying hits on receivers during you know a period of the practice has a safety but the optics of having your franchise number one quarterback you gave 82 million to over two years being your scout team safety is very strange and it's humiliating so you just shouldn't allow it to happen in the first place that's the point joseph says so people are like what are they going with tommy if lock has been quarterback too i think they want to tank at this point to go with the least best quarterback to tank but is lock that bad or am i right um yes i think i think it's more from a vantage point of wait the depth chart has been this the whole time and now it's not so why are we doing that right like if devito had been the number two quarterback on the depth chart it would be different but i mean you guys tell me this is a question i wanted to ask social media when is the last time an nfl team did what the giants just did here i genuinely i don't know the answer to this when is the last time an nfl team you know benched its its starter and before ever giving its number two quarterback a start jumped over the number two for the number three like obviously lock got in the end of that eagles game but they didn't game plan with them they didn't have them start a game with a game plan so when is the last time that's happened for an nfl team i mean i'm sure it's happened i just i don't know but it has to be rare right let's see uh joseph says enough with barkley he averaged 3.8 yards per carry okay joseph right i i see so joseph's on the train of let's move on and look to the future he doesn't want to talk about the giants mistakes and listen joseph in fairness to you there's certainly something to be said about you know hey pat tell me about where they're going to go from here and how they're going to build right and so you want to talk about the tyro and tracie juniors and the malleak neighbors and you know uh you know brian burns being a guy who can be a foundational piece and that kind of thing you already have decks um you've improved the offensive line through free agency those kinds of things but my view of it joseph is that you know i think the rookie class stuff is hey we've seen some encouraging things let's see it keep growing and heading in that direction um we need improvement from nubin tracie obviously coming off his worst game where he has even though he had some production has a dropped interception and a fumble that cost them the game and over time and you know i think that um as much as there are some there is some talent there and a guy like tracie and a guy like neighbors uh drew phillips is a good tackler and you know there are some players on this roster to be encouraged or excited about i think overall the foundation and the the lack of a defined plan in a lot of these areas and the seat of your pants decision-making on some of these key items i think it all adds up to two and eight worst offense in the league uh worst run defense in the league pass rush only as i think one sack in the last two games it's all just kind of coming part of the seams and so you're absolutely right joseph that the guys we're talking about are not on the team anymore and so you're taking it towards you know let's talk about the future but you know in fairness i mean letting your best offensive player go to make your rival team better and turned into an mvp candidate when you felt like he wasn't worth the money when you easily could have afforded him if you had not made some of the mistake decisions that cost you that money that you could have spent on him otherwise like that's a major factor to me i mean i think also one thing about sekwan is you know one argument about sekwan in the giant's defense is well he was never going to make the giants much better and they weren't going to be good just if he was on the team right that's what some people will say and you know i think the giants have more wins than they do now are they a dramatically different team as far as the win loss record who knows i mean they've been a bad team when he was on the team but also to me that speaks to yeah the giants are a bad team often like in other words they don't surround barkley and you know he was here since 2018 they weren't able to surround him and surround daniel and surround their and surround their organization with a good enough team where they could be like a philadelphia eagles and people say oh yeah well they they just went to a ready-made winner the eagles are a made winner by the people running their franchise right that's why they're good their offensive line is good their defensive line is good their pass rush is good their skill players are good their quarterback up and down but the giants would kill to have their quarterback right now right so like you know that's that's where those arguments break down from me hunter says how they treated two vets back-to-back years lock and tie rod is gross no doubt sad day but book answer book and says i respect the work ethic sometimes it's just not enough it is what it is yeah right robert says i don't get it just a couple weeks back you were calling for him to be benched hell most of the season literally not the first time a team is looking forward to the future step in that direction um well robert i know i think i don't think i was banging the table for daniel to be benched i think what i was saying was that you know the giants you could see it coming you could see the fact that this is a guy who it's run its course right it's time to move on he is not good enough right we said that we talked about that we agreed with that i'm talking about i'm not talking about moving on from daniel jones as a mistake that's not what i'm saying i understand that dynamic of it i'm talking about how they're doing it that's what i'm talking about i think you can separate the two things again you can separate what you're doing and how you're doing it but robert to your point and like brian bern said in one part of his answer he said like you know basically after the initial confusion and surprise and that kind of stuff you know guys eventually do grasp at a certain level like oh yeah like this is how the business works it sucks and then they start going back to you know the um you know to their to their own work creative says malike neighbors is a questionable questionable pick also well very talented no doubt about that i think he's super young and he's going to have to uh you know mature i think he also needs to get into the playbook more um and definitely needs to run his routes at the correct depth but uh you know talented player but yeah but but creative i hear what you're saying is that and i i don't disagree with you there the idea that it's like the some of the encouraging rookies that's what i'm saying even the encouraging rookies it's early let's wait and see let's see uh melon fan club san diego says pat when are we going to lean into how inept brian dabel actually is man i feel like um i've been a real i've been leading that charge to be honest with you melon we could talk about you know game management decisions roster management um the fact that you know this is something i was on serious xm radio with bruce mary and rich gannon and i made the point that you know brian dabel's supposed to be the giants shawn paten in other words he's supposed to be the offensive coach who you get your quarterback you have your quarterback he makes your quarterback better he makes your offense better you know he's the kingmaker right but if bow nix and this is something rich gannon kind of finished my sentence if the giants had drafted bow nix we wouldn't be talking about him in the rookie of the year conversation so i think that's the best way to say it this would be a huge win for the browns by the way for uh kevin stafansky because the browns are two and eight steelers eight and two less than a minute left and the browns just scored and are up five going four two all right ray says the way people are talking about jones today you would have thought he won a championship or something just bad optics and hard to see him kind of crushed like that for sure bookin says that's why his teammates like him joey says after steven john who's next in line to inherit the team reigns um well tim mcdonald i think is definitely on the up and up you know tim mcdonald john maris nephew you know he's a smart guy i mean he's definitely been involved in you know successes and failures on the personnel side just like everybody else in the building um but he's an up-and-comer still young ownership as well as front office has personnel experience and chops so i think that's the i think that's the name to keep watching when it comes to taking more control being more involved um and you know ownership and personnel wise is the way i see that creative pointed out not having the kicker for a game was inexcusable with dable and shane baseball says pat you're the only one on the beat who wasn't a two-phase to daniel jones this is why the best reporter on the beat pat thank you baseball for saying that gotta be fourth right how you treat people matters melon says is it possible daniel lost confidence in dable's coaching i think it definitely all wore down on both sides by the end robert says dable got peek out of jones for one season he is not holding the ball or making poor decisions on the field like daniel yeah no listen their blame belongs in daniel jones no doubt about it but with dable if we're just talking about dable which which is he is he the guy who makes the quarterback better or is he the guy who can't make the quarterback better because in that scenario you're saying on the one hand he turned daniel into a franchise quarterback that they're paying 82 million dollars over two years then on the other hand you're saying oh wait daniel's not that guy and it's not dables fault that he couldn't fix him so it's a hard to say both things you know joseph says jones stinks stunkadook stinks here the idea his failures or dables fault is laughable rich says we should have joseph garcia as our next gm let's go baseball says pat what do you think of daniel jones replacing darnold as qb2 in minnesota what i think about that is if daniel jones ends up going to someone from the kyle shanahan tree who can coach i think we will see his best football immediately that's what i think wouldn't shock me if kevin o'connell did that with daniel jones just like he did with sam darnold i think if daniel jones goes to a good offensive coach at his next stop i think that that will throw more egg on the giant's face is what i think nathan says i don't understand what daniel jones has done to earn this moment never been a pro bowler or all pro never finished near the top in any statistical category one-on-one turnover to touchdown ratio i don't get it deserve what moment he got bet he got benched and shut down to number four and listen let's talk about more than just daniel i mean i you know i know that we're talking a lot about daniel because that's what happened today with the press conference but like i brought up a lot more at the start of this steve kur or steve kur steve keys checks in with a five dollar super chat thank you steve he says marin tish looked like chris and wellington before rossell stepped in dysfunctional organization where is tish by the way so tish had stepped back out of the public eye after personal tragedy several years ago um has not ever come back out into the public spotlight much um saw him around at the beginning of this season in particular in the pre-season and then he kind of disappeared uh from public view like from my vantage point you know not seeing him around even if he was um i am i still though he and his family you know and you get older as these owners you slow down but the tish family is always on top of this type of thing the way i view this is that the tish family is probably waiting until the end of the season at this point um is the way it seems because otherwise i don't know why they're sitting on their hands but i'm asking the same question um yeah the the rossell situation is a good example of what needs to happen here they need somebody to come in here and clean it up with a set of fresh eyes i think that's a really good point steve and that's a really really really good point and that's why you know if you give like if bill belich if bill belich at your first call that's why like the rossell idea i'm not saying you belich at run your personnel but i'm saying that's why you got to give belich at what he wants to coach or whoever you're whoever comes in here or like like you said the league steps in and gives you a general manager that kind of thing you need somebody to come in here who is going to be guaranteed that when they start making big changes the floor is not going to fall out from underneath them like joe judge came in here was asked to change the giants and there were certain things he changed that were welcomed and then there were certain things he changed where it was basically like if he had a list of a through z it's like oh joe thanks for changing abcd and e but then when he starts to try to change f g h and i people in the building oh not that not that not that you know so that's that's what sticks out to me when you make that kind of comment and you talk about them needing the new leadership new recommendations on leadership new general manager um you know and and somebody new some neutral party to step in as the mediator you know that's that's part of the reason why let's see joe b says can we bring wink back as our head coach yeah that's that's an interesting question um i think i like the idea because like i said in 2022 both day ball and wink together but obviously wink was a huge part of this they did a really good job of game planning every week for their opponent specifically and having a smart scheme and a tax of teams protections and um a game plan of how to manage the game that week to beat their opponent all of that i thought was um you know a real credit to the experience martindale brought the plan he brought on defense and also i know that there were plenty of people high up in the organization who did not want to see him leave when he left it was because the dynamic here was untenable and he didn't want to work here anymore as currently stood if the giants were to clean house that would definitely be a call i would make if i were the giants 100 percent knows knows the team knows a lot of the players a lot of the defensive players i think would be thrilled to have them back based on how the defense is performing now and how uh production you know some of the guys some guys sacks are up but turnovers are down production is down run defense is worse um you know it's it's bad and so i think that would be welcomed by a lot of people in the building both higher up and in the locker room see baseball says i think what we've all come to see over the past two seasons is what a complete phony debul really is tim says if the giants finish with 215 record and have the number one pick should they cut jones so they will draft sanders in the first round yeah joe daniel jones will be gone and um at this point should do where sanders would seem to be the pick there definitely quarterback and should do a sander seems like the best of the bunch at the moment bookend says if you're human and humble you feel for a guy who worked hard even if it's the right decision when it comes to daniel jones agree belles says i don't like the way shane goes about conducting business business um evan says stealers losing to the browns that's bad here goes a hail mary as you say that into the end zone in the snow the browns knock it down and the cleveland browns the two in eight cleveland browns upset the eight and two Pittsburgh Steelers in the snow 24 to 19 so i start off the week with a loss against the spread ouch i think most people did the browns just got wiped out oh boy what is this george pickens over near the fans you guys better peek at your television they just showed george pickens being held back it looked like from fans maybe also i didn't see a single pittsburgh stealer um i didn't see a single pittsburgh stealer jump for the ball and the hail of mary is very strange um let's see michael says i don't feel bad daniel jones got 82 million diggy says locks in a weird position being skipped at two but devito seems like the more obvious choice given more likely to be here next year than lock why would devito be likely to be here next year i don't understand that they've already a judge basically that he's not very good so i the idea that they're evaluating him for the future i don't i don't understand where that comes from i don't you know i think that's misinformation is what i would call that john says yeah that's usually what happens to the run game when you improve the oh line of regarding seguan and success new york philadelphia yet no but that was my point my point was my point was like if the giants had better personnel around him seguan would be an mvp candidate like he is in philadelphia but he wouldn't be because the giants don't have that around him simian says single terry is not in talk for mvp award yes right giants have slightly improved their offensive line single terry ends up demoted for a rookie so it's not the same for everybody joseph not ignoring you but we talked about seguan so appreciate that joseph says seguan was not their best offensive player jose shane was on the record on hard knocks calling seguan barkley their best offensive player i mean i don't need him to say it but just maybe that'll sway you joey says pat this might be the first time this has ever happened where qb3 was in over qb2 without an injury rogers went down and then wilson was in but got benched for boil right right hey barb great to see you brand safety chris has pat do you think neighbors is another odel i think you're asking from like a dramatic standpoint or off field standpoint well today he was talking a lot about hey man uh you know just let's just get me the ball type thing let's just get me the ball um i think what neighbors is is super young and i think he's tried to do the right thing a lot of times but his attitude is definitely something to watch his body language on the field in a lot of cases hasn't been good when things have gone wrong even when drew lock was in little and daniel jones um i think his body language will be something to watch big time if devito doesn't work out and if this gets really ugly fast um you know so i think i think malike when he came in was handling himself really well i think with the losing his inexperience his youth his immaturity and the fact that he needs to grow you know i do think we've seen signs of um i don't know what the word is but you know he definitely is learning from a lot of his either mistakes or experiences you know you're encouraged by the talent as a building block but there's a chance that he could be you know a guy who's just as much of a distraction as he is a talent you know he'll just have to harness that part of it let's see john says joseph do you even watch and understand college football duke isn't known for football when daniel was there they weren't good all of his receivers had the highest drop rates he had no o-line or rb still ended up going in top 10 um see chris says well john marrah hold accountable family members that are personnel decision makers is his definition of cleaning house different from the rest of the sports world right and family doesn't even necessarily mean somebody with the last name marrah could be people they consider family like family in the organization that's that's my point there are elements of the giant's organization that even when there's full-scale overhaul and change don't change and that's why the giants don't change right so yes there is a different definition in his Rutherford for full-scale overhaul than other places john says dable isn't creative in the red zone kafka definitely did a better job that's interesting ken says marrah must love saquon reverse jump move added into matin yeah exactly his his you know he's all he always talks about like his grandkids love doodell they love saquon that kind of thing at the jerseys all that so i can just envision him walking through the room and thanks not thanks giving they have a game but walking through the room at christmas and one of his nephews hey hey grandpa watch this doing the the backwards jump with saquon felt like it was an end of an era with the press commerce today yep joey says you think if joe goes they make the assistant gm the gm he's smart with great ideas brandon brown no i think i think brandon browns been along for the rod was what they've been doing that would not be my choice frankly in that in that case i think it would be more if you were hiring in-house it would either be tim mcdonald or you would be um you know if you weren't making you know family your gm then and i'm not listen i'm not reporting they're going to make tim mcdonald the general manager that's not what i'm saying i'm just saying he's the guy with the chops with the tenure here um brown browns been here for a cup of coffee and i have not seen anything that has blown me away there so but the guy who's not family chris rosette is the guy i'd be more interested in interviewing he's the guy who seemed to be all over the right way to handle this off season but even though his advice wasn't taken john says bring ernie a corsey back that's not going to happen now but uh i hear you you're trying to get back to the way the giants used to do things the winning ways chris says single terry six million lock five million i wonder what we could have done with 11 million dollars exactly luain says let table finish out his contract he's the coach daniel jones can be a good quarterback he's coming off an injury needs a better line and more weapons how quick we forget his first year at 24 touchdowns in 12 games if marif i was stable i quit on the giants wow i do not want a quarterback in this draft i don't want any more losing seasons really is stressful luain and luain's our eternal optimist here on talking ball live so when luain is frustrated you know you know it's time to get things right because luain is always believing the giants can turn around chris says thoughts on the nfc east record next year how much ground will we make up on dc filly and dallas whoo not looking good right now um my i mean listen i predicted that i predicted this year's standings i think to be either dallas washington filly giants or dallas filly washington giant so obviously i was wrong on dallas um i did feel like filly was going to be pretty good especially with sequon being added and that washington was going to be better i think i went dallas filly washington giant so you know take it with a grain of salt obviously i didn't have that one correct i had the giants correct uh being the last place in the basement and being there clearly i would say my very early take on what the team's order will look like next year would be filly filly uh washington dallas giants right that's what it is right now right um i guess i guess we could see washington beef up and then it be washington filly dallas giants but that's what i would think i think the giants are still a far way away here simian says glad i got fell asleep and wasn't able to get my bet and browns win that's right the browns win joseph wants to tank wow joey b says pat three black quarterbacks in a hundred years i'm scared they take karson back and dul take sanders i would literally throw up gotta go with the talent and they have drafted a quarterback before on jay woodson i think steelers are pretenders and not contenders i'm a fan says i thought that in my top five the last couple weeks shaky ground right now division games are always tough most is wire people thanking daniel jones right okay um hmm let's see michael thanks for the super sticker michael says bobbie skinner called you unreliable and cringe thoughts oh michael you're the one who was stirring the pot last chat too right you're the guy who said bobbie skinner said that uh that uh that i steal content or something yeah bobbie and i talked about that he said you made that up so thanks for the two bucks though all right uh d says joe made daniel a very rich man six years as qb one uh should feel grateful and take the high road joseph says why won't you acknowledge the giants running game is objectively better with tracy come on skip bayless you can acknowledge facts i like tracy i i think i identified tracy for you guys in training camp as the draft pick i was most excited about looks like a good pick right he did have a dropped interception in a fumble last last game that cost them the game um so i think both of those things are true uh tracy is a very very good player encouraging player he's only two years younger than seguan um you know but not as much tread on the tires because he was a converted receiver to running back um but no joseph i mean both things both things can be true i think you're conflating things there like so the you know what i'm saying is seguan being on the giants versus the eagles this year has been night and day because he's explosive but he also has better weapons and support around him and i'm saying that like you're you're saying that the running game is better with tire and tracy the giants have the worst offensive football joe they're the worst offensive football so like you know if seguan was on this team averaging five yards a carry and they were only scoring 15 points per game and last in the league would you say that it was a good run game or would you say seguan's here and the offense still stinks you know what i mean like seguan right now is in at top three mvp candidate so my point was just you have one roster that is set up for success another one that is not and so yes a guy is going to thrive on that better team but you know the giants had from 2018 to 2024 to become a good enough team where seguan could thrive as that player i've always said this about seguan that good player does have flaws uh has great talent but he wasn't the right pick for the giants at the time you know they should have traded back drafted acquinton nelson right um or quarterback obviously josh allen of course that should have been the pick but knowing that they were running back eli manning the pick there should have been acquinton nelson you know and gave gettleman not answering the phone and telling people not to pick up the phone at that point of the draft because he knew they were taking seguan and he didn't want to entertain trade offers i mean absolutely ludicrous wan says why do you hate the giants you never say anything positive i don't hate the giants at all all right i said plenty positive but i'll say more positive you want um the also listen this is a two and a team that is contending for the number one pick with the worst worst offense in the league that just shut down it's number one quarterback to number four and has him tearing up at a podium so i don't know what to tell you you know that this is the harsh reality of where they are now you know some encouraging things about some of the young players um and some things that have um some some silver linings but not many you know i think the roster is worse than it used to be um they can't score the offenses in creative so you know and also wan joseph and anyone who disagrees with my viewpoint thank you by the way for your viewpoint it helps liven up and um bring perspective to the conversation for sure and listen like i said there's things i could be wrong about i have been wrong about obviously um i'm just trying to bring you guys my informed insight what i mean by that is sometimes i'm bringing you straight information and then other times i'm bringing you that information and then i'm making my own conclusions from that information based on my analysis of what i'm told by sources and everything i told you guys at the start of this and for anybody who came in late the first 10 minutes of this episode i really dove into the locker room some comments brian burns made dairie slaton and other players have told me about to try to paint the picture of a of a lack of you know some eroding trust with the locker room in the operation and the fact that this is really about to skid off the rails in my opinion and so i think you'll get a lot out of hearing that and that's a lot of the information behind the way that i see the team lewann thinks kafka should call the place d says daniel gives them the best shot to win they don't the players have to grow up here they just know he's the better quarterback of the three that's all um all right let's see i'm not going to repeat any more questions so if there's similar similar to what we've talked about before i'm going to skip through and make sure i get to old mom um chris as giant spans have gotten soft jones did nothing but lose with the exception of dables first year ken says i love when making 25 to 30 million a year questioning the guy who gave them the money we are a quarterback d tackle and cb one away from being a playoff team go get free agent buda baker as our next and trail roll guy is amazing and a leader can i don't i don't think they are um that close but i like your optimism all right let's see lewann says tommy cutlets can get us to eight and eight who knows uh let's see barb says no way they are drafting back simian says my biggest fear is devito will run the table he won't don't worry six years people six years jones had to prove his worth no good quarterbacks in this draft um chris says i respect podcasters but the actual media have another level of insight they simply don't have being on the outside like the rest of us yeah no and listen like i said you know i'm sure many of you remember this but listen i don't take myself seriously we're covered we're talking about football here right you we're talking about NFL football giants football it's frustrating because of all the losing and the despair and the end and year after year but um let's keep this in perspective you know let's have some fun with this so like a couple years ago i picked the Giants to win three games they won nine and went to the playoffs and i went on tiktok i put a clown face filter on me and i said hey i'm pat Leonard the guy who picked the Giants to win three games in a year they went to the playoffs what a clown and you know listen we got we got to have fun with this this year i was right about the team about where they were going about what it's going to look like about how bad it's going to be about the operation but so some of the things i'm telling you now you don't you don't have to believe me or agree with me i do think i'd bring sorry one second all right got some sources checking in that i got to uh speak to shortly here but but Chris thanks for saying that and i do think my access my experience um my connection to the team to the players to sources in the organization coaches front office agents around the league and covering the entire league right i'm at the Giants every day and i cover the Giants for the New York daily news but i also the NFL columnist in the coaching circuit the gm circuit talking to sources and i think i have pretty good context for what i'm talking about so but like i said i like the disagreement i like the debate and i also love the passion so guys like you know like joseph for example i appreciate your passion and thank you for being here really thank you for thank you for being here in the chat let's see d says i've been going with a rye whiskey Manhattan over old-fashioned not my style but i know plenty of people who prefer the way you are going joey good night thank you for being here chris is i can't wait for tommy cutlets to accidentally put up bigger numbers than jones joey b wants to get a cigar on saturday night i'm going to Notre Dame army a yankie stadium on saturday night uh british says thanks dj for his effort but it's the end of the road he would make a good tason hill 2.0 somewhere else simian notes that the team lacks discipline um joey b says all you stands in here talking crap to pat are clowns what the f is he supposed to say good when the team has been trash his whole tenure there can't put lipstick on a pig fellas parlay says giant's on the third pick in the nfl draft as of now barbs says we need a new coach how nice would it be to have andy reed i wish oh man every organization would sign up for that many giant's fans hate hearing the truth said simian yeah no re no different than um than a lot of fans a lot of organizations who just want to see wins and are frustrated when they don't uh let's see free agent what free agents want to win and make playoff runs to giants not even close to that says d evan says not playing juloch is questionable wasted five million dollars single terry hasn't been worth his contract appreciate your honesty good points there evan british says tracy is the reason why running backs don't get top money you can find thousand yard back in day three of draft all pro back is wasted unless you're a top five team well yes and no um you know avant camara third round pick um you know saquon joe mixon derrick henry those are three big money running backs who um you know have changed the teams they've gone to for the better this year and got paid so you know i think actually the running backs are coming back as far as value and what they're worth also tyron tracy jr has five hundred and forty five rushing yards right now um he's on pace for the yardage you're talking about but let's pump the brakes till he gets there steve says pat keep calling it like you see it it's appreciated thank you steve wellvin i don't have a top three quarterbacks right now i need to do more work on them i know i i've said that a lot lately but um you know that's where i'm at right now i've got to dig my hands into it deeper but i think shador looks like the most talented of the bunch so far uh let's see all right got to wrap this up here guys but i appreciate your passion david says keep doing that great work pat thanks for being authentic i appreciate you um let's see seeing feeling on the vibes in the locker room uh go back and listen to the first 10 minutes of this when we wrap up on my youtube channel and on the believe network p on on nfl on youtube um that is uh where you can find my breakdown of that but i will reiterate for you saying what brian burns told me today i asked brian burns um if he thinks the giants are doing the best things for to give the team a chance to win and he said that's not really my call i mean they must see something i don't know i really don't know i thought that was uh a really telling comment by a veteran player who's just saying i'm not sure what i'm watching right now um you know that's a tough thing to hear saying i think to summarize what i said at the beginning of the podcast which i think you'll appreciate but the vibes in the locker room are twofold guys are understanding at this point listen we all have careers we've got to put good football and tape at a certain point we just got to hit the ground running and do our thing and that's one thing you know like kind of get back to the flow and brian burn said you know no one was really expecting this but um you know he said you know eventually people just get back to the program but and there are there are several players i talked to you said yeah listen we got to put good film on tape for ourselves like do what we got to do whether it's for free agency whether it's for making a case to be on this team next year and have a job everyone just focuses on what's best for themselves right um so you know can that help the team maybe probably not but between what slate and told me in the daily news the other day and what burns is saying now um and Dexter Lauren showing all this frustration and saying that daniel's the best guy um you know not not looking good let's see mose says pat you have an anti-dable and shade agenda but surprisingly you're soft on gj why i don't have an agenda mo this is just my information in my analysis and my belief in my opinion um i'm not soft on daniel jones as a player like i've been plenty critical of him as a player and like i said i've said this a million times moving on from daniel jones is not a mistake at this point okay what i am fighting back against is the blame game that it's all his fault it's clarifying the reality for people that the giants problems start with their roster getting worse with this general manager with the mismanagement of the staff and the games by the coach everybody is accountable but there's a lot of narrative creation by people you know either connected to the giants or giant friendly you know it's selling this version of the truth that it's all on daniel jones and once he's gone everything will be fine and scapegoating him but you look at ellie dunken i think it was of espn mocking daniel jones's press conference today on espn absurd ridiculous clown show stuff but you know why she feels like she can do that because daniel jones has become a punchline in the public eye from so many people uh nationally because that's been the popular thing and so that's what i'm fighting though i'm not i'm not like i'm not fighting that daniel hasn't been good enough of course i'm not why would i fight that but there's no reason to fight that you're looking for a better quarterback play you need a great quarterback if you don't have one you got to go find one right so believe me no agenda no agenda i promise you that you could go back google my name and daniel jones you'll find plenty of stories where i was really critical of them you know so that's though in my job that's where i feel like i'm doing my best work when if i have one person saying you criticize daniel too much like three months ago and another person now saying i don't criticize daniel jones enough that tells me i'm in the right place because i feel like i'm being balanced you know that that's that's just my take um sing says he heard my brian burns quote he says oh i got you pep thank you so in short we're cooked yeah in my opinion yes parlays says what are you doing with that dj action figure in the back yeah that's uh daniel jones bobblehead next to saquon barkley rooky the year bobblehead next to eli manning mini bobblehead so basically all former giants at this point ajs says daniel may be most talented end of the day not a winner mwm says pat are you a lifelong giants fan or did you get assigned to them by your employer is it passion or just a job i didn't grow up a giants fan mw mwm but i am extremely passionate about the giants and the nfl and sports in general uh just like when i covered the rangers for the daily news um you know very passionate about it uh let's see parlay says 85 percent on daniel 15 percent on everybody else yeah see i disagree with that i disagree with that um mow says i respect that i agree it's not all dj's fault but him being quarterback is a majority of the problem i think it's a i think it's a key part of the problem but i think the evaluations of the roster um and the general manager's job is the and the coach's job are both huge components of their failures malaan says thank you for fighting for that aspect for daniel jones you got it malaan thank you for being here joey b says everyone who leaves this regime ends off better off and dj is the next one to do so t patrick says pat do you think the giants are considering bell check this offseason i don't know how they couldn't and let's wrap up there brought to you by my bookie use a promo code pat's picks at the link in my 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Simeon says thanks pat and good night everyone t patrick yes vice versa i think bell check would be interested as long as the giants made material changes to their organization but i kind of doubt that they would um so that's where we'll leave it thank you so much for being here on the believe network and on my youtube channel p on nfl please if you haven't already hit the like button while we are live hit those like buttons that tells everybody it tells the youtube algorithm it brings those giants and nfl fans back to us to join this community where we talk giants live during the weeks and after every giants game so remember join me post game live for giants buccaneers recap on sunday from metlife stadium where i will be coming out of the locker room talking to giants players talking to brian dable give you the pulse of the locker room and the team and what i saw at the game and spinning it forward to where we go from there heading into thanksgiving against the dallas cowboys will daniel jones even be on the team by the time they play the tamper baby buccaneers on sunday will he even be on the team by the time they play the cowboys on thanksgiving who knows devito koopa rush following devito and baker mayfield but that's where we're at that's where the season is a lot of drama a lot of frustration two and eight coming out of the by we'll see if the giants can do with the cleveland browns did against the fezberg stealers on thursday and at football and score and upset this has been patliner from the new york daily news believe network talking ball with patliner podcast saying so long from new jersey thank you guys how do you feel when you switch to geico and save on your car insurance it's like going to work on one thursday morning and thinking to yourself just one more day until friday but then somebody in the elevator says happy friday then you check your phone quickly and discover today is actually friday so yes happy friday random stranger in the elevator happy friday indeed yep switching and saving with geico feels just like that get more with geico this is a mini meditation guided by bombis repeat after me i'm comfy comfy i'm cozy cozy i have zero blisters on my toes listers and that's because i wear bombis the softest sucks underwear and t-shirts that give back one purchased equals one donated now go to bombis.com/listen and use code listen for 20% off your first purchase that's b o m b a s dot com slash listen and use code listen at checkout if you're a maintenance supervisor for a commercial property you've had to deal with everything from leaky faucets to flickering light bulbs but nothing's worse than that ancient boiler that's lived in the building since the day it was built 50 years ago it's enough to make anyone lose their cool that's where granger comes in with industrial grade products and dependable fast delivery granger can help with any challenge from worn out components to everyday necessities call click granger dot com or just stop by granger for the ones who get it done hey everybody i'm Trevor sickle my host of the pff nfl show here to tell you what you can find on all of our shows throughout the week on muddays we have the great release show where myself and all washmen break down every single game that you just saw in the nfl on Tuesdays we have the quarterback breakdown with septalina on Wednesdays we've got the rookie review with john ledyard and the preview for the upcoming week in the nfl so make sure you are subscribed to the pff nfl show wherever you get your podcasts