(upbeat music) - Just gonna take a quick break from the show, everybody, to tell you a little bit more about one of my favorite things in the world, Audible. Audible lets you enjoy all of your audio entertainment in one app. You'll always find the best of what you love, or there's new stuff to discover all the time in Audible. The incredible selection of audio books across every genre, from bestsellers to new releases, to celebrity memoirs, mysteries, thrillers, motivation, wellness, business, they got it all here in Audible, and you can have it all too. Audible is the destination for thrilling audio entertainment, including small town murder, crime and sports, and your stupid opinions, with highly anticipated new releases, and next listen recommendations to habituate every type of thriller listener. And you can keep your heart rate up month after month with this pulse pounding collection, you can't hear anywhere else. The true crime stuff they have is amazing. Right now, what I'm listening to is "The Family" by Ed Sanders, and it is a full, complete retrospective on the Manson family. Kind of all of what they were doing to set their weird stuff up. It is amazing and incredibly detailed, great stuff, and there's so much more on there. And as an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including bestsellers, new releases, latest stuff you got if it's all there. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/smalltownmurder or text small town murder to 500-500. Now, back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Fylo. Oh, p-h-i-l-o.tv. That's right, there's nothing better than unwinding, watching a little TV, but it's a real hassle if you have cable trying to flip through to cut the core, get rid of that, you don't need any of that. Fylo has it all that you could need here. Fylo has shows, movies, and live TV for just 20,000 years. Fylo has shows, movies, and live TV for just $25 a month. Can't beat it. You can even try it for free with their seven-day free trial. No contracts, no commitments, no hassles, just a better way to watch TV. Plus, they have an unlimited DVR for one year so you can save all your favorite shows. Wow. Watch them when you want to watch them. That's fantastic. Never miss a minute of shows like Death by Fame, Married to Evil, or The Prison Confessions of Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Oh. If you can't get enough TV, then there's no better way to watch. Fylo has more than 70 channels like ID, A&E, and Law and Crime, and many more. With Fylo, you can start watching in seconds for less money and much less hassle. Really easy to use, really easy to sign up. Try it yourself with their seven-day free trial. Sign up today at Fylo.tv/smalltownmurder. That's p-h-i-l-o.tv/smalltownmurder to get 50% off your first month. Now back to the show. This week in Phillips, Wisconsin, a very sick man, often compared to some of the most infamous serial killers in history, goes on a terrible spree of twisted and disturbing crimes, then describes them on tape so no one will ever forget. Welcome to Small Town Murder. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. - Yay! - Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrogall, I'm here with my co-host. - I'm Jimmy Wiseman. - Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today and another Outstandingly Crazy Edition of Small Town Murder. I am gonna tell you upfront here, we have to warn you, this one is especially just depraved and disturbing and heinous today. Very disturbing guy today, we'll get into all that, but first we have to say, get your tickets right now, not only for the whole tour coming up, Raleigh Durham, you're up next and still some tickets, Nashville, you're sold out that weekend, so can't wait to come there, but virtual live show, can't wait, April the 20th, it's our annual 420, virtual live show just like a regular live show, except in your living room or wherever you have internet access and you feel like watching with your own booze in your pajamas or you can put it on tuxedo, do whatever you want, we don't care. Either way, you're gonna get a great live show, I'm gonna have some crazy smoking apparatus for Jimmy to really freak him out and all that sort of thing, so it's gonna be so much fun. Definitely you wanna get that, it's available for two weeks after the 20th as well, you can buy it and watch it and have whatever, watch it as many times as you want, have fun with that, shut up and give me murder.com, get your tickets now, also Patreon you want. Oh boy. Patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all of the bonus material, tons of it back there, anybody $5 a month or above, you get the whole back catalog, hundreds of episodes to binge on, new ones every other week, one crime in sports, one small town murder, that's how it works, and this week, which you're gonna get. For crime in sports, we're gonna talk about the trials and tribulations of Hulk Hogan, he's had a lot of weird scandals and sex tapes and his kid killed the guy and all this stuff, we'll talk all about it. A lot of bad decisions. A lot of just dumb decisions for such a successful man, and then small town murder, we're gonna talk about back by popular demand, weird small town festivals, I can't wait for that one, that was fun, we did it a couple of years ago and people keep asking about it, so we said, why not, let's do it. Patreon.com/crimeinsports is for that, and before we do the disclaimer, I do wanna say, thank you to everyone who came out to Sacramento and San Francisco, incredible, the theaters were beautiful, great staffs and the crowds, you guys were awesome, just thank you so much. For all that you did, that was really, really fun, and if you haven't been to a live show, you're missing out, it is a comedy show. Ask anybody who's been there, it's not-- - We got the best audience in this whole fucking game - It's a party, it's a party, it's a two hour party, so get your tickets and come out and see us here. That said, this is a comedy show. - It is, yeah. - We are definitely gonna make jokes and there are some bad stuff that happens. The way we work it is we try not to cross those two things, like Ghostbusters, we're trying not to cross the streams here. There's nothing funny about horrible torture or murders, somebody getting their head cut off, that's not where the jokes come from, they come from all the other stuff, maybe someone's saying, I think I can get away with cutting somebody's head off, that's pretty funny, something like that, a bumbling police force that can't convict the guy who's obviously guilty, it's of that nature, a small town stupidity because we're all from small towns and who cares, so that said though, what we don't do, what we go out of our way not to do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. - Why is that, James? - Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags, that's how that goes, so that sounds good to you, I think you're gonna hear a pretty crazy show this week, if you think, ooh, you get it, you see what I'm saying over here, if you think that sounds good, you're gonna hear a wild story, if you think true crime and comedy should never ever ever go together, you might not be for us or we might not be for you, I don't know, it's a bad match, it's a bad Tinder match maybe, and maybe not though, give it a shot, but no complaining later, that said, I think it's time to sit back everybody, what's all clear in the lungs, and let's all shout. ♪ Shout out and give me murder ♪ Let's do this everybody, let's go try, shall we? Okay, here we go, we are going to Wisconsin this week, yeah, we're going way up North Wisconsin here into the North Woods this week to a town with a familiar name, but from a different state, Phillips, Wisconsin. Now, Phillips, Oklahoma back, I think it was episode 60 is still one of the top five craziest episodes we've ever done, just the debauchery, it's wild stuff there, so this week in Phillips, Wisconsin, a long time listeners will definitely be saying, oh no, it's another Phillips, oh boy, here it comes. Very similar. And this one's even weirder, so way up in northern Wisconsin, it's about three hours and 20 minutes to Minneapolis, is like the closest big city, and three hours to Green Bay, that's how far up this is. Three, okay, so even way farther. So north of Green Bay or west. North and west of Green Bay, out in the woods, three hours and 20 minutes to Windsor, Wisconsin, which was our last episode, number 436, the unraveling of a psychopath. It was the last one in Wisconsin. They're always crazy up here, man. The woods make, I think it's the dark, it's the cold. Eight months of winter, they lose their fucking minds up there, they're such nice people, but you get them in for eight months in a basement with wood paneling, they can't take it anymore. - You go nuts too. - With too much curds and beer, they can't deal with it, it's just over. - And natural gas eats you. - Oh, that'll get to you after a while. The motto here in the heart of Price County's North Woods. So this is where they, I feel like this is where they went for the great outdoors to go on vacation. - That kind of thing. - It looks like it too when we do the real estate report. Yeah, quickly here, we'll try to get through the town stuff pretty quick, 'cause this case is bonkers. But I start out, it's named after a guy named Elijah B. Phillips, who was the general manager of the Wisconsin Central Railway. So it wasn't really named for anything cultural. They were like, he put a railway in and tracks go past here. I can take my goods to market, name the shit after him. So. - What a great guy. - In 1894, it was a very dry summer that year, and there was a continued drought. And by mid-July, things were really, really dry and really, really bad. And they said tops and branches of tons of trees were lying in weathered heaps after timber slashings. Thousands of cords of hemlock bark were piled in the woods waiting to be hauled to the tannery. - Oh shit. - Added to this were neglected hemlock trunks and inches of dry needles covering a dusty dry soil. - Oh no, not good. Even the swamps were dry, like everything, like they didn't even have swamp land. Not good, a huge fire breaks out. - Yeah, there it is. - The night before a fire had approached the north end of the city, but the fire department actually like quelled it, got it, kept it away. But the next day, nope, it was bad. - The hemlock caught it. - Started in piles of hemlock bark 10 miles west and just ate its way to town and just destroyed everything. Yeah. - Isn't hemlock fucking poison though? - That's why they were going, I was going to the tannery. I think it's to extract something from it to get some sort of- - To use the treatment of the tanning. - Some sort of juice of the hemlock will make your leather better, I don't know. I don't know how to make leather. So it's not a, I don't know what I need to, how much hemlock I need. - Make leather better. - Yeah, how much hemlock do we need, Jimmy? That's the question here. - Yeah, I got a feeling we're going to overdose. - So the houses had cedar shingled roofs and they were ignited by the sparks. And it was just, the thing went up as you can imagine, like a box of matches. - How walkin' shake roofs, oh boy. - Oh boy, like a box of matches it went up. Everything was destroyed and they had to rebuild the town after that so that's how that goes. Only one review of this town 'cause it's a small place. It's, this is a very small place we're going to up here. This is the Backwoods and the review is one star worst city ever. This is the name of the star. - Uh oh, what happened? - The name of the review. I've lived here for about three years and I can honestly say I am sorry I ever moved here. The police force is absolutely not desirable. I'd like them to be hotter is what they just said. - I was just filthy. - I want like, you know, I want them to look like they're in like a calendar, like buff, you know what I mean? - Not a bulge to be found. - Yeah, I want a big, big bulge, that sort of thing. I won't even give this place a part of a star with their corruption in their government. - Oh wow. - Frankly, they have the compassion of a wet newspaper. The, it's very descriptive. The compassion of a wet newspaper. Yeah, the personality of a wet newspaper I could say. - Yeah. - But the compassion of one is strange. The city of Phillips' hands down the worst place I've ever lived in my 51 years do not come into this city unless you are fond of government officials who have no integrity. Wow, it's hardcore. So someone pissed her off when she tried to get a permit to like, you know, fix her back porch or something and they denied it and she's losing her mind. - Absolutely, live it. - So I wouldn't call it a city 'cause it has 1,569 people here. - City, ah! - City. (laughing) Very small place. Yeah, and there's not, it's not like a suburb of anything. It's three hours from Green Bay. - Right. - So that tells you and Green Bay is not a big place. Football, team aside. - It's three hours as close as city is in another state. - Yeah, that's so weird. So more females and males here, meeting age is about 40 here. A lot of the stats are pretty normal. Racial stats here, 93.4% white, 2% black, 1.6% Asian, 1.3% Native American, 0.9% Hispanic. So it's the Northwoods of Wisconsin. I mean, what do you want? - It's not gonna be diverse. - No, I wouldn't imagine it would be. Why the hell would it be? You'd have to have people that go, I'm gonna move to the Northwoods of Wisconsin from wherever I'm from. And that's just a lot of the people that live here are from here. And I think there's a lot of people with temporary residents here, like to come up in the summer for a month or rent out their lake house and that sort of thing. - And a certain 51 year old who probably retired. - And is not happy about it. Religion in this town, 56% of religious away above the normal and 31% of them are Catholics. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the Northwoods as we know. - The Great Lakes region. - The Great Lakes Northwoods. Unemployment rate here is a little above the national average, but not crazy. Median household income is pretty low, $40,982. - Oh. - 69 grand in the rest of the country. So that could be better. Median home cost also low. A median home cost is $162,000. - Incredibly affordable. - Which is pretty damn low. And if we've convinced you, you need to come here. You don't care about fires and bad reviews. We have for you the Phillips, Wisconsin real estate report. (upbeat music) All right, your average two bedroom rental here goes for $840 a month. And which is very low actually, but I don't know how many actual two bedroom rentals there are in a town of 1200 people. So first house, one bedroom, one bath, 240 square feet. - What is that? - Okay, it's a hunting shack, basically. Here is what it looks like inside. I'll show you the picture and you'll see the whole thing. The toilet. - The homemade, yeah. - Yeah, the toilet is what? I don't know, two and a half feet from a pillow. - You can put your feet on the bed from there. - Oh, you could, yeah. - Your bed is your squatty pot. - You could shit and put your feet up on your pillow at the same time. - Indeed. - That is really disturbing. It's mainly for, I believe, hunting or if you want to build something 'cause there's 5.31 acres too of woods. It has an enclosed porch actually, which is so 240 square feet includes the enclosed porch. So it's even smaller than that. - Unless that's not included in livable. It's got to be the livable, right? - I think in this one, they mentioned that it's-- - Just do it in the shade coverage, yeah. - It's really weird, but it's only $140,000 for that. So, for 5 acres, for 5 acres up there in the woods. - Holy shit. - Not bad. Here's another house, four bedroom, five bath. There's your tea bowl for your V-holes there. 3,870 square feet, built in 1898, somehow survived the fire. Oh, 'cause that was 1894. - Yeah. - It was probably rebuilt upon ashes and embers, I would imagine. - Probably, right. - This house in another place would be really expensive. It's a big, like, it's beautiful. It looks even Alice and said it on a thing. It looks like a brothel. It looks like a nice brothel in like New Jersey. If this was in a small town, like in New Jersey, and it was a brothel, this house would be like two and a half million dollars. But here it is, 249,900 bucks. - One tenth. - One tenth. And then finally, three bedroom, four bath. 4,000 square feet. - Holy. - 31 acres, right on the lake. This is like, yeah, you rent this out to people and shit like that. It's a pretty basic house, but it's one of these things where you're not gonna be there in the winter. You're going there in the summer and you're gonna be outside 18 hours a day. It's one of those things. 1,520,000 bucks for that. But that's a lot of land. 31 acres on a lake. What do you want? - Lakeshore? - Yeah, lakefront 31 acres. Pretty goddamn nice. Things to do, it's all about the Price County Fair, baby. - Oh, fuck the Benjamin's. - Oh, hell yeah. Providing entertainment to area residents since 1885. - Okay. - So before the fire, they keep going. - A fire happened in the meantime. - Yeah, they say don't miss carnival rides, games, and also food agricultural displays, of course. Free monster truck rides, well, that sounds great. I would even think that was fun, you know? That's good for you. - Are they Bill's monster truck? - I want like gravedigger. - Yeah, that's a yeah. - Do they got a good one? - If it's gravedigger, I'm taking a ride. I don't know what the hell, let's take it. Let's crush a Honda Accord. Again, we just won. - If it's John's truck on 42s, that's not a monster truck. - No, that's just some dude going, I put these wheels on it. That's not the same thing. It says free monster truck rides, musical bands. Those are the best kind of bands. - That's not one of brothers? - As opposed to bands of marauders that are coming through the town to murder us all, bands of brothers. They're not as entertaining, really. Musical bands. - The rubber variety, those are bad too. - The dirt dash is coming. - Yeah, yeah. - Demolition Derby, a competitive horse show. Which sounds like the horses are competing hard. - Full contact. - Yeah, I pictured them with pads and like American gladiators, but horses, you know what I mean? - A horse shooting tennis balls at another horse. - Yeah, American horse gladiators. - Jousting. - Antique displays and antique appraisals. Kitty tractor pole, where they strap tractors to children and see just how far they can take them. - It's from to kittens. - That's right. The first day they have entry day and youth face-to-face judging. I guess they point kids at each other and go judge that other child and then they tell them everything that's wrong with them and then the other kid takes a turn. - Or it's an adult, either way. It's not good. - I don't like what you're turning into. Look at you, you're a loser. Your grades are terrible and frankly, you're not as attractive as I thought you were gonna be. - Your sister's hotter. - Sister's way hotter. Speaking of that, speaking of that, right after that, it's the 2024 Wisconsin Miss US agricultural, whatever pageant, there's that. - Miss Rooda Vega. - And then they follow that with an animal way in at the historic barn. - Oh, okay. - Clear out the ladies and bring in the fucking heifers. That's what they say there. Next day, there is a chainsaw carving show at 12 o'clock. That happens like every two hours. There's a chainsaw carving show. I swear to God, it keeps happening. Then there's the horse show halter, whatever the hell that is. Then there's half twisted, half not. - What is that? - A parentheses balloon guy. It's a guy who fucking twists balloons. Yeah, and he's. - 'Cause balloon knots dirty. - Exactly. He's got the word not in there and he's the balloon guy. He knows what he's doing. He does bachelor parties too, where he makes like balloon tits. I'm the balloon knot guy. That's how he advertises himself to that market. - Nobody wants to be the balloon knot. - I made a pussy out of balloons. Look at that. The little end there, that's the clip. What do you think? They follow that with a chainsaw carving show, of course. - Yeah, and they just carved characters from happy days. - Yeah, that's it. This here, this is Potsy. I made a big Potsy. What do you think? - You're not gonna see another one of those today. It's all Fonzi, you know it. - This is Shirley. I didn't think much of Laverne, but this is Shirley. Then there is the royalty from three to seven PM. royalty-2024 Allyson Dairyland contest. - Okay. - Allyson Dairyland. - Oh, got it. - The Duty contest. - I thought it was like Allyson? - No, no. - Like the name. - Dairyland. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Then there's a karaoke contest. Gotta have that. Then there is a music band, a music band. I just said, just like that. A music band called Classic Alice, which says it's classic rock. So that's a Alice Cooper cover band, it sounds like. - Okay. - It was out for summer, like 12 times. - Pepper's in, hey, stupid. - Yeah. Another pageant coming up in 2024, fairest of the fairs competition. - Okay, what is that? - Who's hottest? I don't know. - Just Disney princesses. - Yeah, you don't have to be like in the dairy industry, I guess, to be that one. It's just the hottest of the hot. Kids tractor pull, dirt dash, all that kind of stuff. Square dancing. - Wow. - And it says under it, you need to know how to square dance. - Well, it'll probably help. - Come on down to the line dance. You don't have to know the moves. Yes, you do. - You do, probably. And then the last two musical acts. Brady Lee, which it says next to it, country. We got it. - We knew. - We knew. Really? That's not hip hop? I would have thought that's hardcore rap. Brady Lee coming in there. And then Shane Cronberger, who plays country classic rock and blues as well. - Oh boy. - That's it? - That's it. Those are the bands you're gonna get. - That's bad. - There's a lot of pageants though, Jimmy. So calm down. What the fuck? - But don't worry. - How much do you want? - Marie is gonna carry oaky fucking picture with her boyfriend. - No shit. So crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here, the goings on of the illegal matters. - Sure. - Property crime, slightly above average, which is strange for a town of 1,200 people. - Yeah. - I don't know how that happens. - Because it's for Capita, I guess. But why are you doing anything? - It's usually much lower in these towns though, because how much crime can you commit? - Everybody knows you. - Yeah. If there's any kind of crime rate, that's a good portion of the town, you know. - Yeah. - If anybody's missing anything or something's broken, you start to ask some questions. - Jim, the hell you take up my shit for? - Right. I saw you on my ring camera. - Yeah. - How did you do that? - Very creative of me, by the way, to say Jim on that one when you're Jimmy and I'm James. So. - They are embedded in this show. It's deep. - Good Lord. - So violent crime, murder rape robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is slightly below average. So not that far below average either. - Just slightly. - Yeah. So I mean, they have a higher crime rate than the average on, that's just wild. For a tiny town of 1200 people on a lake in the woods. Is it like drunk in-- - I know the woods. - Like running your outboard motor while your shit faced? Is that a lot of them? I'm not even kidding. - Is that illegal? - Yeah. - Summer people going up there and just drinking beer and messing around and people on vacation from Milwaukee, is that the problem? - Well, there's more than that too. There's somebody underneath the water in a fucking hockey mask too because the murder, and that shit is too high. - It's way too high, yeah. So that said, let's talk about some very disturbing murder. And I will say on this one, this is especially disturbing this case. So we'll let you know when something's gonna happen that's real, real disturbing. I'll give you a second here, but it's pretty, there's some bad, bad stuff, and it's very descriptive because he describes a lot of this. So let's do this. I have to say right away to some very, very good work here from this book that I'm gonna quote quite often. So we'll just put it up front. So I don't have to say this is from that. "Death by Cannibal, Minds with an Appetite for Murder," is the name of the book. By Peter Davidson, which is of course, Pete Davidson's much, much less famous and successful alter ego about writing true crime books. Very dry, no jokes in them at all. So that said, here we go. This guy is, whoo, disturbing. Let's talk right about a disturbed person right away. John Ray Weber, okay. John Ray Weber is, he was born on November 4th, 1963. He's the youngest of two kids, so not like he was 10 kids and got lost in the shuffle or anything. It was his mother's second marriage. It was he and his older sister, Kathy, here. And they also had four half siblings from their mother's previous marriage, but two whole, whatever, brother and sister. So really, he did have, there's six brothers and sisters. I don't know, we're not like, we're both trash. So we consider our half sisters and brothers, obviously brothers and sisters. Yeah, totally. So, and yeah, I don't ever go, well, it's my half brother. That's, that'd be weird to me. - Oh, my half sister. - My half sister. - The stinks you make. - My half sister's closer to me than my actually full blood sister. I don't even talk to that woman. - Yeah, well, there you go. Yeah, see what I mean? That's what happens. - Wow. - So the Weber's, his family, they're pretty known in the area. They own property in town. They have an 80 acre lot that they own. - Oh, wow. - That's where they have, which is about 10 miles north of town. And they used to own and operate the only food market in Phillips too. They ran the grocery store. So everybody knows them, the whole family, for sure. It was called Weber's Grocery, even. So they knew. - Look at 80 acres. - Yeah, 80 acres. So his parents, Lawrence and Marguerite, they, it seemed to be the small town, kind of idyllic 60s lifestyle. It didn't seem, yeah, there was no debauchery going around. They didn't have like wild parties that the kids were like doing coke and shit like off of somebody's ass or anything. It wasn't like, what's her name? The mom was in the Papa's daughter, the one that was on, Mackenzie Phillips there. - Oh my God. - It was like, that wasn't a childhood, that was a, that book was-- - Yeah, a bad childhood. - I think that book is more disturbing than this story, but that's a whole other issue. - It might be, yeah. So bad. - So that's how everything was going here. John though, everybody's fine. Kathy does well, the parents are nice people. Everybody likes them. John's not right from the start. Something's wrong with this kid from the very start. They said, not only was he kind of just the outcast of the family in terms of being his behavior being kind of out there. They said his behavior was just bizarre. It wasn't even like normal kid stuff, a lot of the stuff. You know, it wasn't like, oh, he doesn't listen and he won't go to bed. I caught him watching TV, caught him watching TV when he said he was going to bed or something. No, no, no, it was really weird. All of the other kids too are like popular and successful and not him. He's got an older half brother named Leslie who graduated with honors from the United States Military Academy in 1973. So that's pretty tough. And so that was when John was 10. So he saw that as an example and absolutely was like, still good. - Yeah, right. Now, this guy also was a star distance runner and won the Army Athletic Association trophy which is awarded each year to West Point's most outstanding athlete. He's the best athlete at West Point. Yeah, and pretty fucking smart too. He served five years as a commissioned officer in the Army and earned a PhD and was a university professor and department chairman. Leslie. So very successful like siblings, that sort of thing. Another sibling, a half sister was a straight A student through college and all that kind of thing. Like all the kids do so well by their parents and then the youngest John is just a disaster. Complete disaster. He was the kid that everybody picked on in school. They said he would never stand up for himself and the whole thing is he got why he was getting picked on to begin with was he was always whining and crying. Like before anybody picked on him. He was the kid in like second grade just started crying in class. So that's going to get you picked on, especially back in the day. It's really going to get you picked on. And he was also, he wasn't athletic. He was terrible in school. His own mother referred to him as the dummy of the family. Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah, his mom's pretty, she's honest. I'll say that much for him through this whole thing. Definitely, she said that and on several occasions he used to just run away. I don't even know if they looked for him or if they were just like, phew, man, that's, wow. All right, let's concentrate on the good kids, but. Is he gone? Yeah, shit. Ah, there he is. Again, never mind. See, he doesn't bring enough food with him. Next time, let's keep a bunch of cold cuts in the fridge or something. That way he has a, get far enough away where he can't come back. Hey, one of those bicycles with the ice box on the front that Mexican guys sell ice cream out. They sell ice cream and one of those deals. The old Italian ice boxes there. Yeah, it's a fucking great bike. Yeah, so he's also a chronic bed wetter. Oh, no. Yeah, he's got the whole, the classic serial killer triad there, he's got everything there in flashing rainbow colors. It's just all over. It's not good. Yeah, bright neon flashing signs of all of these things, even though that's been discredited as a real thing. It's still, it's fascinating that they all have it though. It's still an awfully big kiwinky dink on all this shit. That's what it is. Sure, in the fuck. This show, Small Town Murder is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com. Absolutely, and maybe your social battery. How's, where are you monitoring that right now? You drain down too much socializing from holidays, not enough, maybe some people hole up in the winter. Sure, yeah. And therapy is the thing. Therapy can help give you some self-awareness so you can build a social life that's not gonna drain you or leave you wanting more here. So we totally are 100% advocates of therapy here. We, it's great for you. There's a million things it can help you with, and this is one of them because social stuff is something that we all, it's really hard not to struggle with nowadays, especially even social media mixed in the mix. It's difficult, it really is. Overwhelming. Therapy can help, and if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. We very much recommend it entirely online, designed to be convenient and flexible, it's suited to your schedule. You fill out this brief questionnaire, they very quickly match you with a licensed therapist, and no additional charge, you can switch therapists at any time, which is a big deal because that's, sometimes you're not vibing with somebody and you need to vibe with somebody, no additional charge for that at all. Find your social sweet spot with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/smalltownmurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhglp.com/smalltownmurder. And now back to the show. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about the safest sponsor that's ever been SimplySafe. - Oh, SimplySafe.com, S-I-M-P-L-I-Safe.com. - Springtime's coming here, so you got the spring, you got fresh air, fresh starts, and you clean your house, that's all fresh, it's also the perfect time to give a fresh look and SimplySafe home security. Make sure your newly cleaned nice house is secure, that's important. - Well protected, yeah. - It's the only security system that Jimmy and I will use, and we recommend it highly. We both have it on, not only our studios, our houses, anything we have that needs protection, SimplySafe is the way to go. It's so easy to install that even we can do it. You guys will love it 'cause you'll feel secure, you will not be small town murdered in your own home is what it is, if you have SimplySafe, 'cause they're gonna protect you, they're trusted by experts, it was named the Best Home Security Systems for 2024 by US News and World Report, and news week awarded SimplySafe, the best customer service in home security. SimplySafe has given us and our many listeners real peace of mind, and I want you to have it too, we want you to feel good, get 20% off any new SimplySafe system when you sign up for fast protect monitoring, just visit simplysafe.com/small, that's simplysafe, S-I-M-P-L-I safe.com/small, there's no safe, like SimplySafe. Now back to the show. His parents tried to help him with the bedwetting too, that's the thing he had supportive parents with this whole deal, that's where a lot of this stops with people, it's how this, even if they have this stuff, how is it reacted to, and if the parents are supportive and try to help them usually, then they don't, you know, turn into psychopath. I think all of them, though, for the most part, everyone that has had bedwetting in their path, the parents are supportive up until, I don't know, time five or 10 that they're washing sheets, then at that point, they're like, "How do you not feel this?" - Yeah, they get, "How do you not know this is happening?" - Some of them, though, they would get very abusive and beat the shit out of the kids for that, which would then tie some weird thing to it, yeah. - Right, but I think that's just frustration, then going, "You know what it feels like when you piss, "when you're doing it in your sleep "and you're getting it all over the place, "how do you not know?" And then they'd just get frustrated and beat them. - At the same time, obviously, they don't, though, that's, you know what I mean? They're not-- - What do you mean? - They don't feel it, no, it's not the fault. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, but again, as a parent, you just feel fine. - How do you not? - I think it's just, I think it's just frustration over time and time again. And I guess how many, you've peed in a bed before. Admit it. - Honestly, I'm not a drinker, so no, I really haven't. No. - The only times I've ever pissed in my sleep, I was dead sober, James. - Oh, why? You might get your innards checked here. Get all your pipes checked out, Jimmy. I've honestly never peed in bed. - Really? - And it wasn't like-- - I can remember. - I didn't evacuate everything. I woke up in the middle of it. Probably right at the tip top of it. - It's just in a pile of shit. - Yeah. - Should be laying there. What happened? I'm sober. This is ridiculous. It's all evacuated, man. - No, I woke up like, 'cause they might dream I was peeing. I was, you know what I mean? I was over in a toilet. - Okay. - And then I woke up and I was like, I'm not-- - Oh, interesting. It's a peed dream. - And then you cap it off and run to the bathroom, change your pants, all of it. - I kind of wish I had peed at some point just to, I want to relate to this. No, I can't think of one time. I always thought people were just drunk and they peed. Now my brain's gonna think it's okay to pee if you're not shit-faced and I'm gonna pee and you've ruined me, Jimmy. - Yeah. I think maybe two, maybe three, I don't know. I know it's not just one, but I'm-- - Wow. - And I do know that I've never pissed all the piss. - That might be too much pee for an adult, I'm not sure. I was an adult and I wasn't like, it was pretty 30. - I get like, after some kids, ladies sometimes have a hard time with all of it, but I think that's like when they're laughing, I don't know if that's when they're sleeping. I'm not sure if that causes pee dreams or not. - I don't know, sneeze, cough, and laugh, I think all of those trigger it, but I don't know, it's very strange that every time I've done it, it was in a dream where there was being involved. - Let's go get your valves looked at when we're done here. What do you say? - Look at y'all, check that. You might have, you might just need some new seals or something in there, or-- - Throw a new o-ring. - All worn out, of course. - Pop a new o-ring in there. He's like, oh man, look at you, that's why Jesus, what do you think? What do you expect to happen? - You're lucky to be alive. - Look at this, you could-- - I can leave an ankle tell you. - Everything could have leaked out everywhere, this is horrible. - I can't believe, I can't believe this is holding. - Could have lost all your amniotic flu, average. (laughing) All the fluids could have come out. So he did not overcome it, this guy here. He definitely did not overcome being the best. - And this was a big problem for him. - It was a large problem for him. His parents installed a special device that would sound an alarm when he started to piss in bed, but it didn't help 'cause he'd keep peeing. So he also liked to set fires as a problem, that's two out of the three there. He set his first one when he was about four years old and yeah, he would have burned the house down on many occasions if the family members didn't quickly, they had fire extinguishers, 'cause they knew he was a fire starter. So they'd put out his fires. This is like, what the fuck, man? - He was a flamer. - This is why, yes he was. (laughing) Much like Patrice O'Neill in Arrested Development. Tebow. - That's my favorite thing ever. - It's a great line. When he was in eighth grade, the desk he was sitting at at school first into flames. So they figured he did it, yeah. - He did it. - It wasn't like, it wasn't the devil, just, you know. Some sort of weird fluids. He also liked to steal shit a lot. Number one, he stole money from his own parent's grocery store, which is really nice. His grandfather had left that to his grandmother and also his father and that's how that happened. So people didn't wanna play with him, you know. He's covered in piss and starting fires all the time. It's not the most popular guy in school probably. - Yeah. - So he spent a lot of time alone in his room where he imagined he had a friend. He had an imaginary friend. - Yeah. - But not in like a nice way. Like let's play checkers. It was like, you know, it was like red rock, red rock. It was that kind of imaginary friend. It was much different. - You got some matches. How about a pick? Let's get out of here. - Come on, let's get out of here. That looks flammable. Light the fire, light the fire. Just listen. - That's right. - Listen to the doors over and over again and just constantly just light my fire. The imaginary friend appeared in the fifth grade and then never went away. And he'll stick around as we'll talk about. So he'd blame his imaginary friend when he'd get in trouble. - Really? - Yes, he'd set something on fire and he'd say, well, my imaginary friend did it. I didn't do it. So they were like, hmm, all right. How do you deal with that? - The words imaginary friend should that's rooted in reality, those two words. He wouldn't say that, he would say. Frank did it and it wasn't me. It was Frank and they go, yeah, oh, wow, it's Frank, which is much like the shining here, but that kid was actually having problems. He, his sister, Kathy would often hear him speaking, speaking in two distinct voices and carrying on serious conversations, even arguments with himself. Okay, this is a child. This isn't like the seventh grade. - That is awesome. - That is crazy. That's crazy. That's the definition of crazy. They ask you, do you talk to yourself? - My friend, we would have loved him. - When people, a psychiatrist, will ask you, do you talk to yourself? And that you can say yes and they go, do you answer yourself back? And that's when there's a problem. - And then the third question is, do you do it in another voice? Yeah. - That's extra fucked up. - That's extra fucked up. This is, she even caught him talking and gesturing first as himself and then someone called Natus, N-A-T-A-S, which is Satan's spell backwards, Jimmy. Of course it is, everybody. It's Satan's spell backwards, everybody. What else would it be? - Yeah. - Or that fine material, sat and spell backwards. - Sat and spell backwards. Isn't sat and with an eye? That's a T-I-N? No, as no, N-A-T-A-S. Natus, sat and with an eye. So also he's got some weird, as soon as his dick starts getting hard, he starts getting some weird perversions. It's not gonna be all normal. He likes just straight missionary, but then he's super weird and argues with himself in Satan's voice. No, no. He's got some seriously bizarre shit. A lot of his fantasies involved his sister, Kathy as well. - Oh no, yeah, 'cause that's the closest girl. - That's the one and that's who he's fantasizing about here. When he was home alone, he liked to dress up in her clothes and pretend that he was a woman at the time, but he'd also fantasize about tying her up, torturing her and raping her. He's BTK. - Yeah. - This guy is BTK plus David Parker Ray divided by Ted Bundy is the best way to describe him. - And he's getting in there somewhere. - We'll talk plenty about that 'cause the same psychiatrist will talk to both of these guys 'cause he's like, - Is that right? - He said, "I talked to Ed Gain. "Here's a guy just as sick I gotta talk to." - Get out. - Oh yeah, no, this guy, if he wasn't caught, there is one little thing that makes it so he gets caught. If he wasn't caught at the time he was caught, this would have been-- - A fury. - Everybody, you'll be shocked. You don't know, I've never heard this guy's name at the end of this episode, but you'll just go, "Holy fuck, how do I not know this guy is?" 'Cause he's insane. So yeah, he wanted to torture and tie up and rape his sister. When he was 13, Kathy, his sister found a stack of bondage magazines while she was cleaning his room one day. - 13, 1976, 13, he's got bondage mags. How the fuck? How would he even know that's an option at 13? - Right. - That's so crazy, but then again, BTK did. He knew what he wanted to do early. These publications were filled with, it's all tied up ladies, you know what it is. - You get the idea. - Shit like that. At first, she didn't know what to do. She's two years older, so she was 15. She's like, "What the fuck is this?" She didn't even know this existed. She was from a tiny town in Wisconsin in the '70s. She doesn't know. But then she just threw them away. She threw it all in the garbage, but he just got more and would hide it better after that. - Yeah, if he's got it, he knows where to get it. - Yeah, exactly. And now he goes, "Oh, I just gotta hide it better." So nobody throws it out. The other thing, he gets to be really big. He's six foot six. So he's a fucking secret bro at Kemper in there as well. He's a big guy. - You can't take anything away from that guy. - That's what I mean. Once he gets to be an adult, it's like he's this big six foot six, piss-stained, angry, spire-starting, - No friend having-- - Rape fantasizing, no friend having sister fucking wanna be weirdo. That's a, he's a weird cat, man. So he gets older and she gets darker for him. He doesn't wanna just tie people up now. Now it's about how he's gonna hurt them when he ties them up, just like be decaded. And he wants, 'cause now the bondage mags don't have the, it's not hardcore enough for him. He's like, "This is pussy shit, this is weak." Yeah, she looks like she could be enjoying this. That's terrible, I don't want that. - She's tied up, now what's he gonna do, right? - He doesn't wanna to, you know, to have any kind of joy out of the woman. He doesn't want her to enjoy it. He wants her to be terrified. That's what he's looking for here. - Also, that's what the magazine does it. Like just shows you a pose, but then like, now you've gotta use your imagination. And that's kinda like the fun of all those magazines. - Exactly, you gotta put yourself in there. - What would I do to her? - Yeah. - Okay, she's in that position. I'm just about to fly into frame here. And you know, that's-- - Here I come. - Here I come. All right, that's what you're doing. - We're both about to have so much fun, I swear. - He sees these and he's like, hmm, meh. - How can I have fun and not her? - Lame, yeah, this is lame. She looks like she's into it gross. He imagined these are his fantasies, shoving knives, bottles, and safety pins into women's rectums and vaginas. That was his fantasies that he wanted. This is a teenager. - Yeah. - I mean-- - I don't understand that. - I don't get it. This is way advanced sexual fantasy for-- - Right. - As a teenager, you're just any sex, it would be great. Your fantasies are like a woman that's naked. That's the fantasy. - Yeah, I'm on board with everything you've done so far. - Let's you have sex with her. - Yeah, fantasizing about his sister and then this shit. This is where it's like, it's going so far off. I loved starting fires. When we go camping, that's my favorite part of camping. My favorite part of camping is here in that whoosh. That's an appropriate place for a fire. - Yeah, yeah. - You wouldn't go home and go, hey, but my father's dead would go up just like that thing and then like that on fire. That's where it gets up to be a problem. - I don't want to light the fire in the living room. - Huge bonfires when I was a kid. That was-- - So much fun. - That was huge, it was big, but like I said, once somebody lit, you know, my one friend lit an entire field on fire and he got in trouble. He had to go talk to somebody for a few months. (laughing) He had to talk to-- - Control burns are sick. There's so much fun. - He had to go every Thursday for a few months to talk to a person about that. - He talked to him a lot. - Yeah, this is when he was like 12. I remember this. We were like, "Ooh, that's a bad place to start a fire." (laughing) So these are his fantasies. He would also spend hours writing down all these fantasies in tons of spiral notebooks that he would then hide away. Yeah, he'd write out these long, elaborate scenarios of what he wanted to do with people. - This is why you need friends. - He would copy sometimes, he'd get like a penthouse forum and copy the story's word for word, but then he'd add his own stuff like in there, like inserting the names of girls he knew, or his sister Kathy, which was even better 'cause she's right there. - That's like a slick ad, James. - That's what I mean, is he's totally BTK. - He's tracing it and then creating his own thing. - And then making a little bindings on her and fucking a little. - Tarnikets and meth. - Yeah, gags and shit, that's crazy. - It's the same exact thing as BTK slick ads. This guy is telling you, toy box killer BTK and Ted Bundy with Ed Kemper's size almost. So he's a weird guy. For his birthday one year, his parents gave him a tape recorder, which would be fine except he uses it in very weird ways. He immediately would make voice recordings of his fantasies and this would be a habit that he would have through his whole life here of making recordings of things he wants to do and things he's done. Turned him on a lot and he would listen to himself talking about it and that would turn him on. So yeah, he would look through the, he mainly is masturbating to these fantasies and bondage magazines and shit like that, but he fantasized about Kathy the most here. - What is going on? - Yeah, from the time he was 10 until he turned about 15, her bras and like bikini swimsuits and underwear would just disappear all the time. One day she found a giant, just a cache of them all cut up in her in his room. He had taken all of her stuff and cut them up into pieces and like saved them and had a hole. - Oh my. - That is creepy. I'm Kathy, I cannot wait to go to college. I am going to get the best grades. I'm getting this far, the fuck away from. San Diego State is where I'm going. Is that as far as I can go in this country? What's farther San Diego or Miami? I can't decide 'cause I'm going to go to one of those two. This is ridiculous. - FS use too far north. - Too far north, no, I can't do Tallahassee at all. I got to do. - I need Miami or Bots. - I got to be able to jump on a boat and flee to another, just Cuba or Puerto Rico or somewhere away from here. - Oh my God. - I was the drop of a hat. So very, very strange stuff here. At least two occasions he put his 22 caliber rifle to Kathy's head and threatened to pull the trigger 'cause he was so frustrated that he wanted to rape her and torture her. - So she knows. - Oh yeah. - He's certainly aware. - Oh she's aware, she found her underwear. I mean, she knew. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was only. That's a red flag. - That's a red flag. Especially after seeing all the magazines he's into and shit and then you see her underwear cut up, you're like, he wants to tie me up with pieces of my underwear. - Oh it's me! Oh I get it. - I'm in the one in the bag. Oh, that's not good. So both times she managed to talk him down and get him to put the rifle down. On another occasion he smashed her over the head with a beer bottle. - Yeah. - She said, "I was extremely afraid of him." Well, no shit. - No shit, yeah. - She said many, many times she was so scared she would lay awake in her bed all night, jumping at every sound in the house, waiting for him to come in. And on the night that he bashed her over the head with a beer bottle, he had loaded the back of the Ford Bronco of the family with clothesline, chains, plastic tape, scissors, a shovel, an axe, and his 22. Disposal kit. - Yeah, it's a bunch of, yeah. - He's gonna dispose. She said everything was red. - There's not a thing in that kit that's not for it. - That's insane. No, not even like in a bag of Cheetos. You know what I mean? - Right. - And some cool ranch Cheetos. Like, that would have been barbecue corn nuts. - Nothing. - Yeah, and some fishing like worms, some night crawlers. Like something in there to make it look like he was doing anything else. - Yeah, I'm outdoorsy. - No, not even. She said everything was ready for me to be hauled away in it. - Oh, Lord. - This is disturbing, obviously. He's a child still. This is like, he's in like ninth grade doing all this. - Oh, fuck. - So finally, I don't know how, but it took this long for the parents to realize maybe he needs some mental help, not just a P alarm. - Yeah, not just the humidifier. - Yeah, well, the humid-- - He peed again. No. - Humidity went up in the boys' room. You know what that means. - There he goes. He's peeing again. It's 82%, way too human. It's a dry night tonight. So they said he's mentally ill. They have him committed to a clinic in Marshfield, which admitted him to the child adolescent unit. He was treated by a clinical psychologist, and according to the doctor, he was uncooperative and resisted treatment. He was like, I like jerking off to weird things and wanting to kill and torture and fuck my sister. It's awesome. - It's too cold in here. I would like a fire, please. - Good Lord. Yeah, is it, is it, are you chilly? (laughing) You got like just like a magazine, some old newspapers laying around, maybe a bottle of lighter fluid, 'cause I could really spark something up. The psychologist offered a prediction on John. He wrote, quote, "John would one day wind up in jail for seriously harming a woman." - Great job. - Yeah, I mean, it's obvious. It's all he wants to do, and he's trying to treat him. He's like, no, I don't want treatment. I'm going to torture and kill and rate my sister. Awesome, huh? - Oh my God. - He doesn't care. The summer between his junior and senior year of high school, he was admitted to the hospital again for psychiatric treatment. The doctors at the hospital here prescribed him an anti-psychotic drug, or a bunch of them actually. Despite the medication, he was still difficult for them to treat. Even though they were medicating him, he still wasn't cooperative. Wow, he lied to the doctors and wouldn't be honest at all with therapy sessions. His therapist said that he was a classic sociopath, just you guys, and a psychopath for that matter. So after all of these weeks of intensive, five weeks of intensive inpatient treatment, he's transferred to a group home in La Crosse. Well, he's there, he enrolls in high school for his senior year, and he graduates in 1981. Oh, so that's, this is why I feel like an idiot, because all this guy's problems. He wants to torture and fucking kill his sister, and he has all these things. He talks to himself in multiple, multiple voices. He still managed to pull it together enough to get an actual diploma on like graduation day, and I couldn't fucking pull that off. Isn't that sad? Yeah, the man spent his entire childhood jerking off to his sister, James. Yeah, still, while he was doing that, he still had more time to do his homework than I apparently did. Kid knows more about the Magna Carta. Wow, as soon as he graduates, he enlisted in the US Army for three years. Okay, for some reason, despite his long and very meticulously well-documented history of mental illness, they said, "Come on in, fella." Yeah, what is that? Yeah. I can't believe they accepted it. Here's some very high-powered weaponry. Let's teach you how to use it. Want to learn how to throw a grenade? It starts big fires. (laughing) Have you heard of napalm? Oh, this is, wow. He did well in basic training and was trained as a helicopter mechanic. So, he served honorably for three years, first at Fort Carson in Colorado, then in Germany. But while in the service, he also developed a huge drinking problem. That's what kind of numbed the rest of the stuff. Yeah. But it also kind of just delayed. It's acid-based. It's still there. But he also, you know, he was experimenting with a little acid, smoked a little weed over there too. He also started smoking two packs a day over there, which is- Atta boy. I don't know. Two packs of German cigarettes? Jesus. I was just anywhere in the army. I don't know how anybody could smoke two packs a day. That's a lot. I've never smoked two packs in a day. In my life? No, a peak of my smoking, really. It's so much. It would just be a- On a boat. Seemed like you'd be like, (laughing) By the end of the day, just- I'm just trying out. You're pouring beer down it, you know what I mean? And on a boat, you're outdoors, there's no restriction. You never go inside, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, you can just- I'm still in smoke. Yeah, I get that. It's easy to smoke a pack of cigarettes on a boat. That goes no time. Yeah, I could see that just sitting there, especially if you're- And you know what? I'm gonna take it all back. I've never smoked two packs. Two packs a lot. Two packs with other people taking cigarettes on them. That's what I'm saying too. Yeah, that's for sure. But to sit- I've gone through two packs. Two packs to the head is like, you'd be like, (laughing) You know, you'd wake up and can't breathe. No, that's Don Draper smoking. Where, you know, you wake up and as soon as you wake up, you do like 15 seconds of coughing to get out all that shit from yesterday and then you light up. And then light another. Yeah. Yeah. So it ended in 1984. He returned home to Phillips and he moves back into his old room with his parents' house and his parents' house 417 South Avon Avenue. Kathy was gone. Thank God for her. Great. And so he's the only one living. There's him and his parents, that's it. So he hangs out with his dad a little bit and goes hunting for deer and fishing for trout and all that kind of thing. They've camped out in the woods sometimes. I'm in his dad. So he knows the area woods and all that very well. They were trekking through the woods here and as soon as he gets home, they're just, boom, right into fishing and hunting and all that sort of thing. He has to get a job though, after a few weeks obviously. So he gets a job at the Cuyoga Reef Factory. Oh. They're by fit, by field, by field. Yeah, not fit. Yeah. If I have field. The Cuyoga Reefs are like a sod after. It's a big deal. Is it a big deal? I don't know. Yeah. Jimmy's a big wreath guy. You have no idea. You didn't know. When you go to his house, it's a lot of wreaths. It's all wreaths. It's a disturbing matter. It's a disturbing matter. Yeah. Well, those are his prize wreaths. So he worked alongside a woman named Caroline Lenz and her son Jean. So through them, he meets 18-year-old Emily, who is Jean's twin sister. And the oldest of their kids, they also have another daughter named Carla, who's a few years younger. She's four years younger. Okay. So he's attracted to both of them, of course. I mean, yeah. Carla and, I guess, they're both, you know, pretty attractive. They said Emily is five foot four, 113 pounds and blond and looks like Farifosset and he is like, I want to fuck her. So she's real, like, warm and outgoing and shit. He's not. He's a weird guy, obviously, he's got weird fantasies and, you know, pee in his pants. So Emily Lenz, she's born in 1965. They get together pretty quick, though, and by the time he's 22 and she's 19, they get married on August 6, 1986. So this is two years after meeting ish. Carla is a guy. Yes. Wow. He married a hot chick somehow. Everybody out there. How are you feeling? We make these announcements all the time, gentlemen, upset. You can't find anybody. You're not trying hard enough. Have you considered making a wreath? Have you ever thought about that? Because I feel like the path to a hot chick is paved through wreath making somehow. So how'd you treat your sister? Be a little nicer. Or no, actually, no, beat your sister with beer bottles and threaten to murder her and then you get, I don't understand this at all, but he ends up getting odd chicks somehow. It's crazy. Carla was one of her bridesmaids there, the younger sister. The family, the lenses, approved of the marriage. They were into it and, you know, were welcoming and all that kind of thing because they worked with him and they said he was a hard worker. So hard worker will continue to work hard and, you know, be a decent guy. So right before the wedding, though, he's a little bit weird. He bought, not a little bit weird, a lot of bit weird. John had bought a 1977 Pontiac sunbird from a local teenager. A '77 sunbird? '77 sunbird, yeah. Not a good car. Not a great car at all. No. Those are not looked for. I don't know what kind of wreath-making salary he's got going on, but not enough to buy a better car. So where's the firebird, man? He bought this off a teenager named John Kenny Jr. And Weber here, John got super fucking pissed when the car's transmission wouldn't work properly. So two days after John purchased the car and about, you know, a day and a half after he went ballistic and freaking out and saying, "Well, son of a bitch, he was and losing his mind," this teen is run over by a freight train. Oh, no. Which is, I mean-- Couldn't even get revenge, the kid-- Or-- Oh. That's the thing. Or he was thrown on a track. He'd had been, apparently, by the way, he was found. He must have been lying on-- he didn't get hit, like, you know, he was trying to get across the tracks. He must have been lying down on the tracks and just didn't move as the train barreled toward him with the engineer frantically blowing the whistle to get the fuck out of the way. An autopsy indicated that he was drunk, and it was ruled an accident. Wisconsin. Wisconsin. So John told Emily, quote, "He got what he deserved." Uh-uh. [LAUGHTER] That doesn't deserve it at all. Yeah. Emily figured, "Whoop, unfortunate coincidence." That's what the way-- I like the way the author of the book put it, so I'm going to use that too. "Unfortunate coincidence." Whoops. What happened here? Yeah. Emily, they have a house at 475 South Avon, which is only a block away from John's parents' house. Right, from Mom's house. Right there. This house is owned by John's parents, actually, and they pay $200 a month in rent, John and Emily. Okay. So that's not bad. It's a pretty sweet gig, yeah. Not bad at all. They fight constantly. It's not a marriage-- a 22-year-old psychopath and a nice girl from the wreath factory aren't going to get along. Weird, right? Interesting. Emily caught John in lies about all sorts of shit, mainly drinking and his collection of bondage magazines, which she didn't like him having around. Yeah. A few weeks before-- What do you lie about with those? I don't have bondage magazines. They're not mine. Yeah. They're not mine. That giant stack of them that have John written on every single page. And I have actually pictures of me mounting these women and shit. That's not me. Those aren't pictures of my sister in there. No, no, definitely not. When I say Cathy and put an arrow to one of the chicks all tied up and shit, I don't mean it. Yeah. So a few weeks before the wedding, she intercepts a letter to Carla from John. Carla, her little sister. In it, in this letter, he apologizes for trying to kiss her and begs her not to tell Emily. Yeah. Okay. Emily says, "What the fuck is this?" And he said, "No, no, that's true. I was drunk when I wrote that. Not I was drunk when I did that shit that I apologize for. I didn't do that stuff. I was so drunk I wrote a letter apologizing for something I didn't do." It's a screenplay. I'm making a movie. He asked somebody's advice and they were like, "Say you were drunk." And he's like, "Okay." And did the wrong-- He said he was drunk at the wrong time, I feel like. Yeah. Wow, I mean, come on, man. So he's got a lot of problems. He's drinking more and more and more. He's working as a laborer at Winterwood Products, which is a factory that makes tables, park benches, and wheelbarrow handles. Very specific items. Yeah. Can you make me a nightstand? No. No. On our more? Fuck no. No. Absolutely not. What I can make you is a table and it's probably the same plain table. It's probably not like different designs. A table, a park bench, or a wheelbarrow handle. Well, see, my axe handle is broken. Well, can you double a wheelbarrow handle? Because that's what I'll make you. B-Y-O-W. Her B-Y-O-B. Bring your own barrow. He gets a second job at Mark Quip, which is a factory that produced machinery for the paper, board, and carton industry. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Aura Frames. Oh, Aura Frames, Aura Frames.com, A-U-R-A Frames.com. They're the best. It's the best stuff. Looking for the perfect gift to celebrate your mom this year? Oh, yes. It's Mother's Day. Oh, man. Aura Frames are the thing. Beautiful, Wi-Fi connected digital picture frames. You can share and display unlimited photos, easy to upload and share photos with the app. And if you're giving Aura as a gift, you can even personalize the frame with pre-loaded photos. Yeah. Load them up with pictures of the kids. They're going. I'm telling you people love this. Every relative that both of us have has an Aura Frame on their kitchen counter. It's all. It's perfectly mom. It's never in a corner. It's always right in the middle of everything because you can see all the pictures. Just show everybody. It's really the coolest. We really love it. And right now, Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. Our listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting Auraframes.com, A-U-R-A, Auraframes.com to get $30 off plus free shipping on their best-selling frames. That's A-U-R-A frames.com. Use the code small town murder at checkout to save terms and conditions apply. And now back to the show. Looking to instantly upgrade your Mother's Day gift from typical to meaningful, shop, Etsy. Set up to 30% off well-crafted and personalized gifts from participating shops until May 12. This year, embrace your creative side. You know, the side your mom gave you. And shop Etsy for custom jewelry, style pieces, home decor, and extra special items she'll adore. Need something original and affordable for Mother's Day? Etsy has it. Shop until May 12 for up to 30% off gifts for mom. Terms apply. The Angie's List you know and trust is now Angie and we're so much more than just a list. We still connect you with top local pros and show you ratings and reviews, but now we also let you compare upfront prices on hundreds of projects and book a service instantly. We can even handle the rest of your project from start to finish. So remember Angie's List is now Angie and we're here to get your job done right. Start it at Angie.com that's A-N-G-I or download the app today. So it produces the machinery that make cups and paper plates and shit, so milk cartons and shit like that. Like an inductor. Yeah. It's the machine that makes the machine that makes shit. He builds the machine that makes Dixie cups. He builds kind of yeah, I think so, yeah, that would be the way. So he ends up at one point after a shift, he hangs out with his friends at a bar. He has five, six beers and a bar is what he would do. He'd go after the shift, have a few beers and then he'd have a twelve pack, grab a twelve pack on the way home, drink that at night too, so he'd be an eighteen pack in every night about. Yeah. At this point he begins pissing the bet again. There you go. He can blame himself now when you've had an eighteen pack and you piss the bet. It's because you had an eighteen pack. That's why. Yeah. That's no good. I heard plenty about that. That has nothing to do with reasons. There's no reason other than full. Yeah. And it's got to empty and you're unable to move. That's what that is. Yeah, you're a little alarm inside of you that says, "Make up and pee is like trying to shake you, but you're out cold, your shit face drunk." Yeah. And it's like, "Well, I don't know. He won't wake up. I'm just pissed here. I guess I'll just be here." So let it go. We don't have any more room. We don't have any more room. We've got nothing. This is all we got. All right. Appreciating launch procedure, three, two, one. There we go. Run the sheets. Okay. So it's another server. There we go. He also cannot perform sexually with Emily either. Oh, no. I mean, the only way he could achieve orgasm is by masturbating. Oh, really? Only masturbating because that's he could have whatever look at whatever he wants, but for some reason-- Oh, he can make whatever. Yeah. His hot wife isn't good enough for him here. Do you think he respects her or loves her too much to do awful things to her and he just wants to do awful things? I don't think she would let him do awful things. She freaked out about him having a bondage magazine. So if he says, "I'm going to tie you up," she's going to go, "Oh, you're not. That's gross." No. I'm 19 and pretty innocent. That's disgusting. I'm not doing that. Yeah. That's a bit far. Yep. So Emily tried to be reassuring, but he felt humiliated because he couldn't fuck her at all here. They split up two months after they had gotten married. All this happens in the first two months they're married, by the way. All this stuff. What? That's two months of marriage. That's not-- Eight weeks. That's not 15 years, three kids got laid off twice. They had to move into their parents' basement, then move into another place, air mattress, none of that. This is two months of living in a house together. All this is happening. It goes from figuring it out to alcoholic pissing the bed that wants to-- that has to beat off? You can't hold it together. She moves back in with her parents. And so John went to the obvious source who you'd go to for marital advice, a 16-year-old. Yeah. Carla, obviously. She's got all the answers. That's who he goes to for marital advice. He asked her sister. Yeah. He said she was a good listener and wanted them to patch up their marriage. And yeah, Carla, even their mom, said that Carla was always willing to listen to other people's problems. Okay. Okay. All the time, he would talk to her and they were like, "Well, that's good. He's trying to, you know, maybe she has insight into Emily and maybe that'll help, you know what I mean?" Sure. Maybe she can deliver Emily's message. Then November 12th, 1986 comes along here. It's about 11 o'clock at night and Carla gets a telephone call and answers the phone at home. She was at home watching her nine-year-old brother while her mother and her brother worked the night shift at the Phillips Plastic Corporation. And her father, Jean Senior, was a long-haul trucker who wasn't going to be home for days. So she's got to watch the kid. She gets a phone call, puts on her jacket, and leaves the house. She told her brother she'll be gone for a few minutes and she'll be right back. Okay. Now, next morning, mom and brother get home from work and she's not around. Nowhere to be found. Brother said she never came back. He went to bed. So they searched the house. They look all around. They call the sheriff's department to call the reporter missing. And right away, the sheriff said he didn't like the looks of it and it seemed like foul play, obviously, which she's going to go out for five minutes, talk to someone and then fall in a fucking bottomless pit on the way back to the house. That's, you know, strange and she's gone. Yeah. And she didn't. It wasn't a runaway thing because she wouldn't have left her brother there. She also didn't take any clothes or money or makeup or anything that all of her shit there. All of her shit there. Like modern day equivalent of having her phone sitting on her dresser, you know what I mean? She wasn't expected to be gone. She even left her driver's license behind so she didn't even have ID. That's ridiculous. And she was getting along well with her parents and her siblings. She hadn't just been, you know, had a, it wasn't like talking to guys. There's no internet. So I mean, falling out of some sort. Yeah. None of that ever happened. She's doing well in school doesn't make any sense. So no one, she even did all her homework that night. So they're like, okay, really? You're going to run away that night. You're not going to do your homework first. I'm going to pissing away that time. You're going to burn those books before you leave and go, ha, ha, ha. So they offered a reward. Now John Weber here, he helps. John Ray Weber helps out, distributes flyers, offers suggestions to maybe what happened. He said that, you know, also there's guys that I think that look at Carlo a little too long. You might want to look at this. You might want to look at this guy. When he told the family one day after a couple of weeks, and it's still everybody looking for rewards and wires are up, he says, quote, there's no sense worrying about her. She's probably dead. Why would you say such? Even if you thought that, you don't say that to the family, to your in-laws. You're just asking for a really uncomfortable Thanksgiving, I think there. That's awful. We haven't found even a dead body, but it's so new. She hasn't been gone that long. No, it's fucking weird. She's probably dead, but I mean, no one looks at him as a suspect or anything like that. They questioned him at first, obviously, but he just said, I don't know, it's my sister-in-law. That sucks. She's gone. But Emily, later on, she'll say this years later in reflection. She said, quote, "Carla and I looked very similar, and as soon as I saw her picture in the paper, I knew that he had something to do with it. I just felt it was sick of me to think that way. I felt guilty for even thinking those thoughts." So that was November 12th, 1986, mind you, okay? November 12th, 1987 comes along. Year to the day, Shelly Hanson, a young girl here. She's not a child here, she's pregnant and in her early 20s. She, I guess, has been having trouble the last year, and she just disappears. Oh, She's, yeah, she's pregnant. She was happy about it. She was picking out baby names and all that kind of thing. She was excited. Her father had promised her, or the father of the child, had already said that she would give her child support and all that sort of thing, and so she apparently, they don't know who the father was of the baby. She never told anybody because the father said, "I'll give you money and I'll give you child support if you keep my name out of this. Keep it secret. I don't want anybody to know." So she never told anybody this, and then she disappeared while she was pregnant. And she had an ultrasound image and everything. She was all about it. She took the sonogram to work and showed her friends and everything. So she disappears. So the police, I guess, they look through her apartment and they find all of her personal possessions that are there that are of any value they tell her family to take from her apartment. So it doesn't get pillaged, obviously, by just somebody breaking in. So her brother, Ron, takes all of her stuff. And then two days later, her brother's house burns down and all of her shit is burned with it, everything. Oh, Shelley's shit? All of her shit. And his whole house is burned down. Oh my God. They said that they, they blaze was possibly caused by an overheated wood burning stove. Maybe they don't know. So this, that's pretty fucking hot. So during this whole time, Shelley had seen her brother and her sister-in-law all the time. She was described as very close to her brother. They said though, except for the family, Shelley more or less stayed to herself. She wasn't anyone who was really, she wasn't anyone she was really close to in Phillips. They said she was quiet and easygoing. They were looking for her and maybe they did a big investigation and they just couldn't figure out what the hell happened to her. Nobody. So they had a picture of her basically that saying she's energetic. She had two jobs in Phillips, one at the IGA store and one at a marketing firm called Mark Whip. Oh, what's going on with that? Manufacturing, not marketing. Yeah. Manufacturing. They make Dixie cut machines. Right. Yeah. She didn't have a curtain makers. Not a big social life even though she was good looking and kind and shit. She had a lot of like, you know, knickknacks and shit like that is what she collected. Nothing, nothing big here. Her mother said that she was very excited to have a baby, she didn't care if the father was there or not. She said she wanted to raise the baby by herself and she wanted the baby and was happy about it. Yeah. So that's, that's very interesting. She was 23 at the time and as far as anyone knew, they don't know what the hell happened to her. She just disappeared, but her car was located, but it gave no clues as to what happened to her. No blood, no signs of a struggle. Nothing. A $10,000 reward is offered, but no one ever comes forward with any information. Ten grand in the eighties is a lot of money still. And so that's one day, one year apart on the exact same day, November 12th, two young women here disappear. Okay. So that's weird at that point. Neither of them have been found either and people now go, oh, there's a serial killer in town. Okay. Got to be. Got to be. And it's not a drifter because it's a year apart. So this dude lives here. This is fucked up. Now there's only like a thousand people here at the time. So you think you could, you know, figure it out, but apparently not. Yeah. So the Emily and John in January of 1988, this is two months after Shelley disappears, they decide to give it another shot, but they separate again by May. This is not going well. Yeah. They're good for about three months together and that's all they can tolerate. Yeah. That's it. She Emily told him that she was ready to start her life over again and they should end their marriage. And you know, she's like 20, 21 at this time point. So I'm going to start over is fine. You're 21. You got plenty of time. I just started. So this is. Yeah. You don't have any kids. Great. Dodged a bullet and fucking move on because then you'd be tied to the psychopath for the rest of your fucking life. So he moved in with his parents, moved back into them into their house and he was convinced that Emily is cheating on him and has another relationship and that's why she wants to end. So he files divorce papers in January of 1988, but just weeks before that, they had agreed to get back together and then they broke up again in May. So that's how it happened. And then when they got back together again, though, he said that he was going to seek the help of a marriage counselor and a Minneapolis urologist who specializes in dick problems that he has. So yeah, awesome. He's going to do it. The doctor, the old dick, Doc Dick, Doc Dick, Doc Dick diagnosed him with Doc Dick diagnosed a douche with poor circulation and he described, he prescribed papa verine, papa verine, which is a powerful medication that widens blood vessels and allows more blood to flow into them. Okay. Before they had sex, before a sexual encounter, John would have to inject the base of his penis with the medication. This isn't a pill. Did you think this was a pill or a cream? He has to inject the base of his penis with medicine before he has sex, which would make me not want to fuck anymore once I've just injected something into my cock. I'm done. I'm on the DL for the day at that point, right? There was a doctor that had to do that. Yeah. There was a doctor that had to do that to get into action. And he was doing it in the, I forget which it was a, it was a scandal somewhere where he was like, was it that, was it that one that, that that all those women? Yeah. I think it's him. Oh, with the, oh, when he would, the guy who would, it was a sperm artificial insemination guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. I think that's true. That's possible. Yeah. Otherwise, how would he make that much jizz? Otherwise, the guy was a machine. How do you get it hard enough to, to, that frequently, good war. There's a factory. This guy. This was painful, but it would work for a while. And John made him feel better about himself. Now he could bang his wife. So he was jacked, he would drink a lot still. He wasn't violent though. He wasn't a nasty drunk. That's when it's so strange. He'd get drunk and be less nasty than he was when he was sober, who lighten him up a little bit. He would just kind of withdraw and kind of be pissy. That's what he would do. He's going to sit by himself and be quiet. He roughed Emily up a couple of times, but nothing severe, you know, not, not no hospital visits or anything like that. He pushed her head against the bathtub at one point. And another time he wouldn't, wouldn't let her leave the house or use the phone. So that's what I mean. These are definitely crimes, but it's nothing that she medically needed to get help for. It's not black eyes and blood. No, so 1988, September of 1988, Labor Day weekend here coming up and everybody's doing well. They're together. He's injecting his cock. They're having sex. Yikes. Drinking quite as much. They were talking about building a home on an 80 acre plot of land that his parents owned. Awesome. We're going to build a home there. And before the holiday weekend ends, that's he's going to tell her that, yeah, let's go look at the plot of land. Okay. But September 4th, 1988, let's go to here. There's a police police get a call at the police station from a guy identifying himself as John Weber. How you doing? John Weber here. He said he's calling a report that his wife, Emily, had been kidnapped and beaten up on Saturday night, which is the night before, while walking past the normal building in downtown Phillips, very normal for this to happen there, the kidnappings and beatings. A three story building that was a training center for school teachers at one time, but now isn't anymore. He tells the cop that Emily's abductors took her to a secluded area in the woods, beat her and left her naked. She walked home naked, bruised and battered and got home in the middle of the night and told this tale. He told the cop that he cleaned up his wife's wounds in the bathtub, then called his mother in law, who came to the house and drove her to the hospital. So, you know, Emily was in intensive care and critical conditions, so I'm calling from the hospital right now. We had to take her here. So this cop said, could you please come by the police station to fill out a report when you come back to Phillips later in the evening? Stop by. I suppose, yeah. Yeah. So then he told the police chief, this is what happened. And the police chief came to the station because he wanted to hear about this because this is a, this would be a big deal, an abduction beating, especially when two girls have disappeared. It's certainly a big deal, but not big enough for us to come to the hospital. No, no, no, stop by and grab a report. Well, this is 30 miles away in another jurisdiction in town and shit. So they have to wait for him to come back, I think, as part of the convenience. Jurisdictions part of it. But then later on, jurisdiction goes out the window and one of the cops actually said, I decided I didn't give a damn about jurisdiction. So I'm like, okay, that doesn't seem good. Yeah. Well, yeah. Come on, bro. Like, what are you talking about? I decided, you know what? Damn it. I'm going to chase them Dupe boys into the next county. I don't care. I'm going to get this Reno, Reno convict over there and sparks today. It's going to happen. So Chief Moore is on the case and the chief places a call to another chief and asked that one of their officers could be sent to the hospital to interview and photograph Emily at the hospital. Yeah. Let's do that. So then he headed for the location where John had said the abduction took place. Yeah. He walked around and he was looking for anything, a shoe, some gum wrapper, something. Some blood, some hair and something. I would say people were here and nothing couldn't find anything, not a damn thing. So he drove over to their house, John and Emily's house and knocked on neighbors' doors. You see anything? Anybody pull up snarling in a giant hearse and pull a chick into it? No, nothing happened there. John comes to the police station at 930. They said he was very distraught and nervous. And the chief said he'd seen him around town, but never talked to him or anything like that. He comes in, sits John in an interview room and John's repeating over and over what he said on the phone. He just keeps saying that. The doctor, they took her here. He's like a tape recording over and over and over again. He said we were at home on Friday night watching TV at about 10 30. She said she was going to walk downtown for a bite to eat, which is odd. She said she said she was gone for about an hour when he said he was going to bed and then he woke up at 7 30 the next morning. So at that point, the cop starts reading him his rights. He says that and John says, "Why are you reading me my rights? Are you accusing me?" And the cop said, "No." And he said, "Then why are you reading me my rights?" And he said, "Standard operating procedure, got to do it with everybody and they do." Yeah. And he says he signs the form and then he says, "When I woke up, Emily was on top of the covers in the nude on her side. She was covered with dirt and leaves and twigs. How the fuck would twigs stick on to her walking two miles home? She's still going to have twigs on her. She got into bed and... Not into onto onto just flop down on it. So he said there were pieces of duct tape in her hair and cuts all over her, her breasts and other places. She's got deep like cuts under her breasts and things like that. She fucking slithered there? No, cuts like slices of a knife. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Did she slithered her home? What are you talking about? Why would she get those cuts? I don't know. I don't know how she'd get them that deep unless she was slivering over a pile of knives because it's a huge... Yeah. A huge machete pile here. I had to crawl through the machete factory to get here. It's very difficult. So tired. Yeah. He said they were all over and her face was bruised and swollen. Her eyes were swollen shut. The cop told him to slow down because he was rambling, gave him a cigarette and said let's take it from the top. John, what did Emily tell you happen? And he said that Emily told him that she was walking downtown near the normal building when she heard a car approach. She heard it come to a screeching stop. The doors opened. Two men grabbed her from behind. They put duct tape on her mouth and eyes and shoved her into the back seat. So he said that, you know, all the time, Emily was in the car. They held a knife pressed to her throat. She could feel it. And they drove her to a secluded spot where they tore all of her clothes off, beat and tortured her. Then when they were done, they pushed her out of the car and left her on the side of the road naked. And she somehow managed to stumble to her feet and find her way home, naked through the darkness. So he said, I found her in the morning, woke up about 7.30, helped her to the bathtub, washed her off. He said he cut away the duct tape out of her hair with scissors, helped her back into bed and then called his mother-in-law. Yeah. So he said, you know, we were just real, we're just real, uh, concerned about her. So that's that horrific scene is what happened. And then she went home without calling anybody, just stumbled home, she's, I got to get home. Did knock on the nearest door, say, help, help, ambulance, my, her eyes are swollen shut. Yeah, right. So she said, found her way home. Yeah. So the chief is listening to this going, um, I'm not buying this. Yeah. I don't like how this is going here. He said, quote, right off the bat, I smelled a rat. He said, for one thing, he was way too nervous as he told the tale. He would be angry, not nervous. Yeah. There's no reason to be nervous with him. He'd be saying, this is what happened. Can you let's go out there and find these motherfuckers? He'd be bad. Or he'd be, or he'd be more down like this, it's sad, but not nervous. There's no reason for him to be nervous over this. Yeah. I'm embarrassed and humbled that he wasn't there to defend her anything. Yeah. And he said, in this, this tiny, tiny town, how the fuck could a woman be snatched off the street with screeching breaks and have nobody see her hear anything? Yeah. You know, he said, also she's bruised and battered. How the hell she going to stumble naked through town for miles without not one person. Even in the middle of the night, nobody, not a bread truck, not nothing, not one person fucking saw a Asian attendant, injured, bleeding, naked woman wandering around. That draws attention. An attractive 20 year old blonde woman naked and injured walking down the street. It's going to draw quite a bit of attention. I, I swollen shut. I swollen shut. He said, quote, there are always people out, especially on a holiday weekend in early September. Right. And it's the last one. Yeah. It's so weird. Yeah. It's going to be, it's going to be snowing in a week and a half there, probably, and then it's going to be. It's on everybody's there. He said, John also never asked any questions about how is Emily doing while he was at the station for hours. Oh. Yeah. He, nothing about that. He seemed more concerned about how the chief planned to go about tracking down who did this. What are you going to do to fit to find not you need to? Well, what do you do? Like how do you do it? Who are you looking at? I mean, yeah. Yeah. How's, how am I going to get away? I mean, what? So you're going to catch them, right? He said that John never called the authorities or seek sought medical help in the nearly 24 hours since the abduction, either, which is interesting. He said, I wanted to, but Emily wouldn't let me. She said she didn't want anyone to see her in that condition. The guy was like, no, and he's this guy said, even if your wife didn't want that, if you thought she was in need of medical attention, you'd call the ambulance. You figured out. You'd get her there probably. So when the interview ended, they asked him, John, if it would be, you mind if we look through your house and the he said, you know, there might be fingerprints on the tape that you cut out. So we want to get that here. And John said, oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, no problem. Yeah, go ahead. You can go get that tape. So at the house, they go and they get a bunch of pieces of duct tape that they found in a waste basket in the bathroom. Yeah. Yeah. In our water bed, he took the top and bottom sheets, which had twigs and clumps of mud and leaves. Right. Also took a bunch of swabs from around the drain of the bathtub for a small tiny, tiny town police chief. This guy knows how to, how to fucking do a homicide, you know, how to do a crime scene in the eighties, especially this is going everywhere. He read whatever book they said they wrote on that. He read it and is paying attention to it. Whoever came to give them a speech recently, he took the propaganda dead serious dead fucking serious. So based on all of this, this, everything's adding up. There's the duct tape. This is what you said happened, twigs and leaves and mud. Okay. So then Emily tells the same story to a park falls cop who interviewed her and photographs her in the hospital. But the chief said, I kind of want to hear it from Emily herself. I'd like to hear here, but Emily's in critical condition. She had been beaten, stabbed, cut all and cut. Emily, there's not an inch of her that doesn't have a fucking bruise, a stab or a slice on her. She's covered in shit, including her vagina and everything. It's not good. She couldn't see her eyes are swollen shut. Her lips are split and puffy. She's has internal injuries. She's got broken ribs. She's in horrible, horrible pain. And the doctor said, that's it. You take pictures and that was it, but no one else is talking to her about, right? No more fucking questioning. Not now, at least because she's got to improve. Let me do my doctrine and get her healthy and then he talked to her. Yeah. So now he looks at her. He thought looking at her that she must have weighed 200 pounds, but she goes about a buck 10, but she was so swollen that she thought she weighed like 200 pounds. So when he finally gets to talk to her, he introduces himself and he said, do you think you're strong enough to tell me what happened to you and he tapes it and she tells not as detailed a story as John told, but same sort of thing. Got grabbed, got thrown in, beaten, tortured, you know, sexually assaulted the whole deal. He said, okay, you know, that's okay. He said he didn't believe her though at all. And he said that he also realized that with her eyes shut, she didn't even know who else was in the room. So the next time he went away for a little while, came back and he told her that it's just me and a nurse here, by the way. He said, John's in the waiting room and, you know, don't worry about it. No one will hurt you. Everything's fine. Then he asked Emily, do you believe in God? And she said, yes. And he said, okay, he said he asked her to pray with him. And they did. And she said that he prayed that dear Lord, please, please protect this woman and give her the strength to tell the truth. So he led the prayer and said that to her with yes, said that with her. Yes. And I give her the strength to tell the truth. And then as soon as he said, amen, she started saying what really happened to you. Yeah. Next three hours, she spills the fucking beans here and tells her because that's a harrowing tale. It didn't happen at all. She said her and John had a fight the night before all this happened. John was horny and wanted to have sex, but she didn't want to. So she told him tomorrow night, I promise, just not, I don't feel like it tonight. So she said that he went off to, you know, fucking be pissy and have some beer and all that kind of thing. And just, you know, be a fucking grumpy shit. So then he, I guess, asked her if she'd like to go for a ride with him out to his parent's 80 acre spread. He's out and he calls her, okay, and says, come out to the here, we're going to let's take a look at where we're going to build our house. He said, I have a surprise for you. It's about us moving up there. I'll pick you up in an hour. An hour later, he drove up there. He's got a yellow two door ozone bill cutless, 1970, which if done up is a very cool car. The yellow, not so good. Yellow. Yeah. I mean, now though, it'd be pretty fucking cool. If the chrome pop too, the yellow could work. Yellow is pretty bad. Nah, it's okay on a classic car. I'm okay on a muscle car. I'm good on a muscle car with bright colors like that. That's pretty cool. I hate it. It's better than gray. Every fucking car is gray now. Yeah. Another white car, gray car, I can't do it anymore. I like black. Oh, that's all my cars are black. I mean, I'm a black car guy, but yeah, none of your cars are black. No. Oh, wait. Everything white. Oh, yeah. You have white. You have all white. Yeah. It's right in the back. But they all got black trim all over them. That'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. You do live in Arizona, too. Yeah. So he stops at a store before they get, they, he picks her up. So the store grabs a spiral notebook at a store. That's not good. Along the way, she's like, Hey, what's up with this? Give me a hint. And he won't tell her shit. He said, I don't want to spoil a surprise. So they're driving, driving. They drive past the airport and all this type of shit. They go past his old job at the Mark quip plant and everything. Then they go to the Weber property and, you know, it's a flat property. Nothing to look at just trees and shit. They also get to rock Creek Road and he turns left onto a dirt driveway. This is the property. So he, he comes to a stop here. They get out. And he said, don't peek. He'll spoil it. She was excited and she had her eyes closed. And he said, I'll be right back. You stay here and keep your eyes closed. He was gone for about 15 minutes and then he comes back to pick her up 15 minutes. He dropped her off and stand here. And just don't look. So then he gets back 15 minutes later. She jumps in. They drive off. They go down the driveway for about a half mile and they turn into the woods. He's driving a 70 Oh's won't be all cutless through the fucking trail in the woods, which is strange drives it for a while all through the woods. And she figured, oh, that we're going to the house where we're going to knock down some trees and build our dream house. This is where it is. So she saw a tape in the tape player. And while they're driving, she pushed the tape in. She said that John had mentioned a tape to her off and on. And she thought that maybe that this had something to do with the surprise. So she said, when's when am I going to find out the surprise that she pushed the tape in? He immediately shuts the tape off and pops it back out again and tells her that you can't listen to it right now. Can't do it. So she was like, Oh, okay. She thought this was like some big elaborate surprise. So fuck man, this is very weird. At this point, they stop in the woods and he says, you know, they're sitting there and he says, close your eyes. And she did. And she heard him like, you know, moving stuff around in the back seat. She's like, Oh, man, he's probably got a dozen roses back there. The next thing she feels a knife against her throat. She said, is this going to hurt, which is a very calm thing to ask at that point. She opened her eyes and it's a big hunt. He's got his big hunting knife against the side of her neck. And she was like, what the fuck is going on? And he was like fucking in a rage on fire. Angry. Yeah. Different guy. She said that he could see the neck as veins in his neck pulsing with the fucking each heartbeat and shit. And he was very mad. He said, are you cheating on me? You've been cheating on me? She said, no, of course not. You don't have any reason to be jealous, blah, blah, blah, you know, he said he didn't believe her. And he said, I brought you into the woods so you could watch me blow my head off. That's why I brought you here. Okay. I've been like, all right, that's better than the knife against my neck. I'll take it. So my options are you cut my throat or you shoot yourself? Well, I mean, it's a tough decision, but yeah, oh well, he then said he told her to open up the spiral notebook and he handed her a clipboard that had two letters. He wanted her to copy. He's got a clipboard with fucking letters and he's got a pen and he won. One was to him and the other was to her parents. Then he punched her real hard in the mouth and said, quote, I'll cut your tits off if you don't do what I tell you. Oh my God. With the knife to her throat, large fucking crocodile Dundee knife. So she did what she was told. She wrote, she was like, Oh my God, this is fucking crazy. The letter to her parents was an apology for leaving without saying goodbye and for not being able to tell them where she'd gone or when she'd be coming back. That's a bad letter to be writing. Oh yeah. When you're in the woods with a knife against your throat, yeah, the letter to John stated that she was very sorry, but she couldn't stay married to him anymore and that she was the cause of all the problems in their marriage and that she'd hoped that he'd be able to find someone who would treat him better than she did and actual dear John. Yep. That's it. And added also that her parents probably wish she had disappeared instead of Carla as well. And a PS there said, Hey, John, please tell our friends that you were right about me all along. Make sure you tell all of our friends that you were the good one and I sucked, which everyone would do. So everybody I'm off. She finished copying the letters, then he had her sign to birthday cards, one to him and one to her father. Then he gave her the envelopes to address as well. He told Emily to write only her name in the space for the return address and he had her sign a blank check, joined from, drawn from their joint account and said to make it out to cash for $250. She does all that. And he says, I'm going to get rid of you just like I got rid of Carla. Oh, what? That's what he tells her. She was like, what the fuck? So obviously that stops her cold. He says, Oh, you didn't know I killed Carla, did you? And then smiles at her. Oh my God. This is you're this is like, Holy fuck, I have messed up. I'm in the car with a serial killer now. This is terrifying. This is how women felt when they were in the car with Ted Bundy and he was like, end of the road. This is, you know, takes the cast off. Oh shit. He just took the cast off. She was thinking about what the fuck to do. He got out of the car, walked around and yanks the door open like Silvio Dragon Adrian out in the woods, basically. So she was didn't want to get out. So he yanked her out by the hair. He told her strip and she took her clothes off and wow, she, you know, pulls off all of her clothes. It's raining at this point now, by the way, she stands totally naked. He's smoking a cigarette. At this point, she had a bra and panties on. That's it. At this point, as he's taken a drag of a cigarette, she decides to make a run for it. Oh boy. She takes off, but John's running after her and he's like a 25 year old guy. He was like six foot six and she's in, she doesn't even have shoes on in the woods. Right. Not a good. Not going to get far. Not very good. So he said, you better get back here or I'll kill you for sure. She got about a hundred feet away and then she realized that she wasn't going to be able to get out, get away any farther. So she stopped and he caught up to her and quote grabbed her by the crotch and dragged her back to the car. Oh boy. He reached, okay, this is going to get bad now. Just to get everybody a little warning ahead of time to kind of buckle up for this shit. He reached into the backseat and pulled out a roll of duct tape and wrapped it around her head so it covered her eyes and mouth. Then he pulled her arms behind her back and taped her wrist together. And then with his hunting knife, he cut off her bra and panties at that point. That's what he's going to do. So she can't hear or move or anything. He then shoves her to the ground. She fell down. He jumps on top of her and starts just slashing away at underneath her breasts. That's what she's doing now. He's, yeah, he's just cutting her. Awards mastectomy. He's doing at this point. He's trying to do basically. She said she could feel her skin coming apart. Wow. Then he took an inch and a half safety pin and poked it through her left breast and twisted it several times before snapping it shut. What? Wow. Yeah. Inside and outside because he's fucking sick. This is the sick shit you were thinking about. He picked up the knife again and just started slashing away at her general torso, just cutting her, slashing her back and forth. At one point he took them, put the knife down and just started beating her with his fists. Then he got tired of beating her top side and turned her over on put her on her stomach and began slashing away with the hunting knife on her back. Yeah. He had also brought along a wheelbarrow handle from his job. And he assaults her sexually with it as far as he could get it into her. Oh, dear Lord. Twist sit and makes it very painful and then he does the same thing to backdoor there. So then he says, now are you in the mood? Oh my God. He's angry that she wasn't in the mood. Yeah. Dude. Jerk it and get back to it tomorrow with the fuck is wrong with you. He's disgusting. He's a sick fuck, obviously, so she remained conscious through all this somehow, which is insane. She said that she wanted to she was trying to stay alive is what she was doing here. So she got back to her feet and she tried to get the duct tape that was around her hands to come loose and she did and then she ripped it off of her mouth and then she started fighting. So she's trying to fight back. She's trying to gouge his eyes out, but he'd knock her down to the ground every time because he's he's six foot six and she's fine. She's not right 110 pounds. So it's not working out very well. Then he would stomp and kick her with a steel toed boots that he was wearing as well. Okay. Okay. Then he bent down and picked up a shovel. She stood back up and he smashed her over the head with the shovel, the metal and the shovel part, not the handle. She said at least 20 times she would get back up and he would fucking smash her again and knock her back down. It was just like he would wait for her to get up and then he would knock her back down with it again. He yelled, you're going to be a tough one to kill, aren't you? Yeah. And she said, I'm not going to let you kill me. I'm not going to die. That's what she said. At some point she passed out. He knocked her unconscious, which it's amazing that she's been conscious this whole time. Right. It's incredible, honestly, and honestly horrifying. I'd much rather be unconscious at some point here. So at some point she comes to looks around. She's still in the woods. And she's got John's jacket on now over her and he's cradling her in his arms. Like he feels bad? She said John was talking in a nice voice like he really felt bad. Then she heard another voice, she said, but there's no one else there but the two of them. It was a completely different voice. She said it was mean and lower and it kept saying don't let her live, don't let her live. He was like, I love Emily and I want her to be okay. Don't let her live. Don't let her live. No, but she's good. I don't want to. He's arguing with himself about killing her while cradling her in his arms. Like imagine how terrifying this is the scariest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life. This is insanity. This is a horror movie. It's truly worse. So she said, who else is here? And he said, not us. He said, not us. I've got to let her live. I can't kill her. He was like saying that he was saying, don't let her live in a lower voice. She said the two were going back and forth arguing about the two voices about killing her. She said, it was like I wasn't even there. At one point, the argument became so heated that John was smashing his fists into the ground arguing with himself, but she as soon as the sun started coming up, he helped her up to her feet and back to the car. Yeah. So they drove back to Phillips and there they are. He now he was taking care of her. He helped her out of the car and the house filled the bathtub with warm water and gently gently washed and bandaged her wounds, put her to bed. She slept for the next 10 hours, which she's I got a heart severe concussion, I'm sure. This is awful. She's going to sleep after that. I would say not. No, probably you should go to the hospital after that and check it out. When she woke up, he was on the edge of the bed and saying, this is a story you got to tell by the way, because you're going to have to probably go to the hospital and you're going to tell this story and told her the story about you were abducted. This is what happened to guys in town bubble block. So the cops now, after they, after the chief hears this story from Emily, imagine sitting there listening to the story, he's just like, oh, oh, oh my God. Oh Jesus. Oh, yeah. You'd want to stop her and just go make an arrest before she's done because this is too much already. You've already told me about one crime. That's enough. As soon as you got to the wheelbarrow handle, you go, you know what, I'm going to go arrest him. We'll take it. It's fine. I'll give you a patent paper. You're right there. This is crazy. So they said he, the chief leaves and thank you for the statement goes out to the waiting room and talks to the other cop and said, I'm going to arrest this guy here. And if he takes off, I need you to block the fucking exit and tackle his ass. So he goes up to John and he says fucking, you know, turn around, coughs him. John didn't, wouldn't do it at first, but then he looked at the doorway and saw there was other cops there and he was like, oh, this is more than one cop, and he just does it. He turns around, does his thing, they cough him, they walk him out. He said, quote, I don't know what's going on, but they've arrested me for Emily. This is what he yells to his in-laws, Emily's parents as they're taking him out of there. They're like, what the fuck? And the father, Emily's father blocks the cop's path and says, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you taking my son in law? Why are these ridiculous? And he was like, okay, now, do I want to tell the dad what the fucking daughter just told me here? Let's not do this right here. He said, listen, can't talk about it right now. Don't worry about it. Police stuff. I'll get to you later. Okay. There you go. So he locks John in the police car. Now they asked about the doctor, what exactly is wrong with Emily? What are her diagnoses? He said, quote, she had so many diagnoses, I'm not sure what we settled on for a principal diagnosis. That's what the doctor said. There's a lot. So much. I don't even know what, what is the, you know, the A. Which one do you want? The A game here. Yeah. What section of the body would you like to talk about because it's all fucked up? We're not sure which one's most severe. How's that? Multiple concussions and facial swelling under the skin, eyes swollen shut, swelling and blood clots and her lower abdomen and labia blood clots, lacerations of the leg puncture wounds of the buttocks, cuts and abrasions in the vaginal area, swelling caused by internal bleeding. Also contusions to her liver, pancreas, which were causing severe pain, abrasions to the mucous membrane lining of her vagina caused, he said, by forced forceful rubbing against with something that wasn't smooth, right. They bring John to the police station. Yeah. They put him in a little cell. He immediately lays down, curls up and falls asleep, which is the number one, your guilty fucking thing. They put him in there and then watch and went, well, he's sleepy. That's, he's guilty as fuck, okay, moving on. So he calls John's father, the chief does and says his father tells, he tells his father what's going on. And he says, can we search your property? And the father says, sure. Come on out. So they do that. They come on out to the place. This is the county sheriff, the state police, the little town, everybody is out there. They all go out there. They find freshly made tire tracks that lead right to the spot where John had beaten Emily with the shovel. They even found the shovel lying next to a freshly dug hole. They, they measured at 28 inches deep by 34 inches by 26 inches. They said it seemed too small for the body of an adult woman, but it was probably work in progress. Yeah. That's her. That's her grave. You're right. Um, another location, they found an empty, empty M.G.D. beer, beer can, which will M.G.D.'s gross. It'll make you do weird shit, I guess, a partially used roll of silver duct tape, Salem light cigarette butts, Salem lights, gross, getting the smile and confidence you've been dreaming about all from the comfort of your home isn't a total mystery with bite clear aligners. Just don't be surprised if all your friends start asking, what's your secret? Begin by ordering your at home impression kit today for only 1495. Light clear aligners are doctor directed and delivered to your door treatment costs thousands less than braces. Plus they offer flexible financing, accept eligible insurance, and you can pay with your HSA FSA get 80% off your impression kit when you use code WONDERY at bite.com. That's B-Y-T-E dot com. Start your confidence journey today with bite. But looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking, it's human, Amika, empathy is our best policy. A blue baseball cap, a flashlight and a hacksaw, and then a few feet away they found more duct tape and a wooden wheelbarrow handle, which was bloodstained. Those things are square, James, yes, so fucked up, good horrifying, and fucking terrifying. So they drew a map of the locations where she was attacked and they draw it all out for the police report here. So then a team of investigators come together to search his car, which is at the hospital parking lot. Right. Okay. It's the 70, we got cutless. They ordered it and pounded when he got arrested, so a tow truck brings it in from there to the sheriff's garage. They get ready to examine it and they really want to go over it with a fine tooth comb because they know it's going to have stuff here. So they photograph it all over. They notice the door on the handle of the passenger side looks like it has blood on it. That's a good start. They photograph that, they remove the door, they bag and mark it, they take the car part piece by piece. That's how careful they're doing it. They're not just, you know, on their knees in the front seat going around the back seat, they're taking the seats out and fucking looking at them like that. So in the glove compartment, they find a partially used roll of duct tape similar to the one found at the grave site and similar to the tape removed from the waste basket of their house. They also found a hunting knife. That's the knife they believed he used to slash or all up. They look under the cut list. They notice that mud flaps were hanging over three of the four tires. Only the left front tire was missing the flap and the flap was found on the Weber property that matched the three that were on the car back there. So got caught off. Oh, he lost one at home. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't drive a cutless in the woods. Right. He'll lose the mud flaps. They also scrape bits of grass and soil from the undercarriage and everything. And they really went over this like a really good crime scene. Then they popped the trunk. Oh, boy. And that is, I like to call this the trunk of darkness. This is some weird shit, tons of beer cans, first of all empty beer cans and that kind of thing. The clothes that Emily was wearing when he forced her to strip, including her sliced off and blood stain brought in panties. They found the clipboard that held the originals of the messages that he had her copy as well, as well as the birthday cards and the envelopes. They also found a couple of weird lists that he made to do lists and need to buy lists among the entries for pH one, which they later on found out from him meant phase one. Her quote, bondage for legs, saw duct tape, oil for ass, what oil for us oil oil it up. Yeah, like it's a fucking lawnmower. Yeah. Wow. Needles, pins and checkbook. He had all in a list of things. Another page contained notations for phase two and it said, take shot in Dick just before pH two, three CC. So take his sexual sexual dick shot, quote burial spot, compost heap question mark, maybe I'll put someone there, make sure compost heap is same as before execution. Yeah. Okay, then they find this isn't the weirdest shit they find in there. They find a black bag in there also inside. They found the blue spiral notebook, which she copied messages on that were written out. Also were a bag of stick pins, three Dutch master cigars and two more wheelbarrow handles, one of which looked like a notch I was carved into its handle. Oh, well, he's used. Yes. They also found a green duffel bag that contained torn bras of various sizes. That's not good. Soiled men's and women's underwear, a vibrator and a rabbit stuffed animal with a hole cut out of its crotch. He is fucking the rabbit. He's fucking a stuffed rabbit. What the fuck? All sorts. I mean, imagine he's got all this stuff around him and he's right in phase one and injecting things into his dick and then fucking a stuffed rabbit. This is just a weird guy, right? And he's got a dildo. And he's got a dildo too. Yeah. They also found more than a hundred porn mags in his trunk as well, tons of magazines. Everything from playboy and penthouse to like hardcore weird fucking lobe. Or European bondage shit and shit that's not even legal here and stuff. A lot of the magazines were dog-eared and like, you know, marked and stuff like this is a good one and, you know, he really went through them. He's got those neon pointers. Oh, yeah. Then they find his tapes. Okay. Yeah. First, he's got some normal tapes for a guy, I guess, in '86. He's got these are the tapes. These are on the tapes that warrant returns, so you can give this back to whoever. A tape of the best of bread, the band, real big bread fan, CCR gold. So creams their water revival gold. So he likes best ofs, road songs, I don't know what that is, Docan. He's got Docan. Docan tape. Yeah. Docan. He's into Docan. So heavy metal, music from the motion picture. Oh, that's a great movie, but that's a heavy metal soundtrack in there. Yeah. It's like '88. Yeah. That's a cartoon porn. America history, American greatest hits. I think that's the band America, like, horse with no name of that band. And then to round out his tape collection, the Bee Gees also, which I wouldn't have, there's not a lot of people have Docan and the Bee Gees in the same car in 1988. So that's interesting. He's teasing him with staying alive. No shit. And then, oh, wait, that's all the tapes that were laying around. There's one tape in the taper deck. Remember the one that Emily tried to push in? It's still there. It's just black, though. There's nothing on it. Yeah. Nothing on it. So no words or letters or no they can't identify it. So they have to figure out what it is so they can inventory as it is returned. So they said they thought maybe it's just music. So they turn the ignition to the, you know, where you can play the radio. Don't turn the engine over. They turn it on and push the tape in. Said 10 seconds. Nothing happened. So they were about to pop it out. Maybe it's a blank of some kind, but then John's voice comes on. John's voice, yes. He speaks in this very weird voice for about 50 minutes on this tape, 50 minutes, and I'm going to give you some of the highlights here. He was talking to Emily, by the way, on this tape. She's not there, but this is an address to Emily. Yeah, to monologue for her, monologue for her to listen to. He says, if you do exactly as I tell you when I tell you and what I tell you, you will be all right. I need to explain something to you when I want you to listen closely and understand. I have a lot to tell you. So sit back and relax. He said that as we were having problems in our marriage, he would seek advice from Carla. He said, quote, the first time I talked to her, I knew right away that she had a crush on me and I know how she felt. So I would go out and I would talk to her and we would go for rides. Then she said that they said on the tape, his voice kind of not like he doesn't go to his other personality, but he starts getting sounding different. Then he said, I know what happened to Carla. I know real well. And they said he drew out that it was like real well. He said, like, drew it out. He said, the same thing is not going to happen to you. You are going to live. However, you may be a little sore and you will definitely remember me. So I will explain what happened. Now he's going to spill it. He said that he called Carla at 11 p.m. on November 12th, 1986. He invited her to go for a quick ride to talk about his marriage problems. She said yes. So he said he grabbed a kit that he'd prepared a few weeks earlier. Oh, boy. He's got a kill kit. This is fucking insane drove his Pontiac sunbird out there. She was already walking down the road to meet him. She climbed into the car and he drove out to his parents property there against state road 13. When they got there, he told Carla that he was thinking of leaving for Colorado and he asked if she would go with him. She's 17, literally illegal to take her. She said no, this is his quote, quote, she said no and that she wanted nothing more than to see me and you back together again. So I told her I had a surprise for her and that she would need to close her eyes and turn away. She smiled and did as he asked because she trusted him. When she closed her eyes, he said he reached into his kit and pulled out his 25 caliber pistol. She said she was still smiling when he grabbed her hair and shoved the gun into her mouth. Oh my God. Okay. This is going to be another rough part here for a little bit quote. She didn't know what to think. I told her she should do exactly as I say or she would die and I told her she was going to watch me blow my head off. That's this thing that he likes to tell people and she kept screaming why I told her to shut up and when she wouldn't, I slammed a sock into her mouth. So he said that she was feisty and she fought back and she spit the sock out and then tried to grab the gun. She tried to wrestle it away from him, but he's a lot bigger. So he pinned her to his lap and told her that he didn't want to live anymore. She said, what do you want from me? Why the fuck do you need me here? Pull your head off then. He said, before I blow my head off, I want to see you strip. That's what he told her. She said, no, so he put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger. She screamed, no, John, don't, but he had the safety on him. He was just doing it to act like he was doing it. She said, well, maybe I'll kill you first than me. That's what he said then. She said, okay, fine, I'll strip if that'll make you not kill me basically. He said she started with her jacket. She had that purple jacket on and she took that. She took that and her shirt off and then her shoes and then her pants. And then she asked how far. All the way is what he told her. So he watched her strip the rest off. He said, quote, she had her arms across her tits and I couldn't see them very well, but I could see her muff and it looked like it was black, but it actually was brown and she had trimmed it up. He uses the word muff in a non-sarcastic way, not trying to refer to a guy who uses the word muff, you know what I mean? The only time a normal guy should use that word is in referring to a guy like, he's the type of guy who says, hey, look at her muff. He reached back. He's the guy that uses the word muff without an insult towards somebody else. Yeah. Just as like normal, that's a good looking piece of wool there. So he then removed a roll of duct tape from his kit and bound her eyes and mouth in the duct tape. And he said about three wraps so she could not see. Then he pushed her face first into the dashboard, yanked her wrist behind her back and bound them with tape two, quote, I knew she couldn't get out of that. He said, then he started to torture her because that's what he wanted to do. He pulled on her left nipple, quote, as far out as it would go and he bit it hard and he pinched it real hard, he said, then he said it got much worse. He went on. He said that again, this is disgusting. He said that he pushed his fingers into her vagina. He tugged at her pubic, pubic hair and pinched her clitoris and then hit her with a plank across her butt 30 to 40 times, flogging, flogged her. Then he told her, now you're going to give me a blow job. And if I feel one tooth, I'll cut your tits off. He then said that he, quote, fucked her face for a good 10 to 15 minutes. He ordered her to lick the crack of his ass and she did. He then told her to hold her mouth open. He said, if you hold, close it even months, I'll cut your tits off. And then I pissed in her mouth, he said, he's just a sadistic, just horrible fucker person. Zero sex to this at all. It's just all humiliation. It's this is yeah, this is what he likes. He then took the ends of two wheelbarrow handles, rolled them in snow and forced one into her vagina. Quote, I fucked her with it, first slow and deep and then fast. Then he pushed another one deep into her rectum. He said, quote, it went in real hard and real stiff. He then took a cigarette and burned her clitoris long and hard. He then took a safety pin, one of the big ones, he said, and quote, poked her ass about 20 times, then use the same pin again and stuck it through one of her nipples. Then shoved a beer bottle into her rectum and pushed it in as far as the neck, he said. What is the point of all this? Oh, it gets even weirder, not this is I don't even know how he could get weirder, but he then got one of his hypodermic needles for his dick injections, filled it with lighter fluid and injected it into her left nipple, quote, all the way in. What does that do? I don't know how that would make him. I don't know. I do. I don't understand any of this at all. No, it's just like, I don't think I want to understand how it's just sick experiments. It's not even like it's just to see. He's like fucking Mengele at this point, like he's just, it's disturbing to see. Then he pulled the tape off her eyes and said, I want you to see this. And with his hunting knife, he cut off her right nipple and showed it to her. Oh boy. He then sliced off her right breast. He said that Carlo went into spasms. He said, I showed her her her tit up close, holding it by the nipple. And then I, he kicked the beer bottle, quote, all the way up her abs. Oh God, damn it. Said he had to do it three or four times before it disappeared. He said, but she was still alive. Really, really pissing him off now because you've done nothing that's a, that's a deadly thing. No, he doesn't slow internal injuries to hurting somebody horribly. He said, quote, so I stepped on her throat until she died. That is the worst death I've ever heard of in my entire life. That's what I mean. We've heard a lot of serial killer stuff. Yeah. Ted Bundy wouldn't have gone this far. He would do it afterwards. This is, I don't BTK. This is too far for him. He never even fucked up. He didn't get this far in his fantasies. He might have if he had 150 years, but this is like, I don't even know, man. This is somebody who really thought about this and is, this is disgusting. This is joys saying it. Yeah. Then he's saying it and he's for his wife. He said that he had dug a grave two days earlier, but he didn't bury her. He said, instead he put, this gets even weirder, by the way. He put her corpse and her severed breast in the trunk of the sunbird. And this is while all of them, including John, looked all around for her. She was in the car in the trunk in the middle of these search parties, driving the car right next to cop cars. Yeah, buddy, we'll, we'll check. Let's see. Let's hope we can find her. Jesus. On the second day after she died, he sliced off Jesus, a chunk of her left leg, skinned it and froze it along with the severed breast. Quote, that night I made some patties and I ate her leg. Oh my God. I don't know, man. I don't, is this the worst thing we've ever talked about? Yeah, I don't understand any of this. This is fucking crazy. Then he said he talked about his Jekyll and Hyde personalities and said he couldn't, he just couldn't stop it. He wanted to, but he couldn't. He said, quote, I wanted to stop and I couldn't, I wanted to go home. But he said that there's another part of me. There's another voice that he describes as the, quote, evil part of me that planned this murder and I couldn't stop it because the wheels were in motion. Yeah, quote, I drove around with her in the back of the trunk for four or five days. I got this wild idea. Her left leg was unbeaten. So I took out that knife and I cut off her calf, just her muscle and I brought it in the house and I washed it up and cleaned it and skinned it and sliced it up and froze it. And that night I made myself some patties and I ate Carla's leg. Unreal, man. Wow, he also says that he, her breast, quote, I put it in a plastic bag and brought it home and I sliced it up. I figured I'd like to try a woman's breast. Then he said, he says, quote, you know, human meat doesn't taste that bad, actually. I was kind of surprised. You're a sick son of a bitch, man. Actually it tasted kind of good. No, it doesn't. Unbelievable. I don't believe you. And he said that he was going to do this to Emily if she didn't fucking tell this, you know, if she didn't, you know, just do whatever he wanted and all that. Or just, you know, if he felt like it, basically, I don't even know what the fuck, man. He tried a letter he wrote to her, he will talk about, he writes a letter to her parents later on and part of it, he says, quote, what they believe happened didn't. Because of the tape, the things they believe happened to Carla are worse than what actually did. At the end of the tape, he said, oh, by the way, he then buried her after all that, the rest of her on her, his parents' property and said, quote, now you know what happened to Carla. Yeah. But he said, at the same time, I'm going to make you suffer, but I won't kill you. He says to Emily, he says, he was going to, quote, make her fuck herself and fuck herself up the ass. He said, her ass, quote, will be sore and your cunt will be sore and your tits will be sore. Women are nothing. They flaunt their bodies and they think they can get anything they want by being a cockties. I pay them back and I'm definitely paying you back. There will be others, many others. He is, this is a dangerous motherfucker that could have a hundred bodies on him. He said, I will cut off your tits and then start at your ankles and make another cut just below your knee and another one by your rotten pussy. He said he would break every toe, maybe even a few fingers and maybe I will cut off your head. And then the tape just ends. Wow. The cops sat in the car and listened to this for 50 minutes. Can you imagine that? No. They're like, and they're like, and they know this could actually have happened and they know after they find out this did fucking happen. Yeah. He's not lying. He's not exaggerating. This is for his own records. So yeah, that's he's done fucking set it into a microphone. Yes. So everybody, all every profiler, psychologist, everybody out there with kind of a skin in this game says he is David Parker Ray to a, to a take like he's, he's the toy box killer. Like that's, they're the same fucking guy, he can exchange their brains and they'd walk around and be themselves. It's just, he'd go, Oh, cool, I have a dungeon to do this. And now awesome. I'll just do it there. I got enough money to buy a trailer. That sounds cool. Man, I'm doing awesome. So and go to bars and find chicks. Right. Heath. So they sit him down. They're going to interrogate him. Yeah. So he, they have the tape. They told him we heard everything you did. And yeah, he said, well, yeah, I did. He said I lost control with my wife. I don't exactly remember what I did to her, but I do remember taping her eyes and hands and mouth and they said, do you recall sexually assaulting your wife with a wheelbarrow handle and he broke down in tears and nodded his head that he did. And he said he remembered that it was dark and raining hard and that they spent the night in the woods because it was so dark they couldn't find their way back to the car. So he gave her his jacket and cradled her to keep her warm. Said he remembered he had a knife and a shovel and then he hit Emily with the shovel to kill her quote, because of the way she treated me. And then he remembered asking while he was beating her, who's better, Danny or me. And meaning the guy he thought she was cheating with. By the way, she was under oath and everything. She never, she wasn't with Danny. None of that was, that was all in his mind. All that shit. So then when they started talking about Carla, he, John started talking about Carla or the cop dead. He said, let's talk about Carla, John wouldn't talk anymore. Then the chief told him, I heard the tape. I know what happened to Carla and John said, no, no, none of that was true. I only said all that to frighten Emily. I didn't kill Carla. He said, okay, then they said, what about, you know, a girl named Shelly Hanson? Oh, the date November 12th ring a bell to you. And he said, never heard of her. Don't know her. I said that girl that was missing. I read about that. But I never met her. I don't know her. I don't never seen her in my life. They went, you work together. You fucking asshole. We knew it. We know you work together. Yeah. She was two cubes down, you idiot. Oh, with a little investigation. He had been seen with her in several bars in town in the weeks leading up to her disappearance. He was hanging out with her. He fucking killed that girl. For sure. He had to. He absolutely killed her. And that's probably his kid. He probably knocked her up and then killed her. Oh, wow. You think so? Absolutely. I would think so. Everybody or she was knocked up by somebody else and he was jealous and upset by it. Who knows? Yeah. That's also a possibility. So the cop then, because he doesn't want to talk, he doesn't want to talk about it. So the cop says, hmm, let me try this. John. Yeah. You know what the next words are. Do you believe in God? You want to pray with me? This works, by the way, if you watch like the first 48 or interrogation videos, you will be shocked at how often do you believe in God and where's your soul going to go and your grandma is going to be disappointed. Like shit like that. And they'll just spill it. It's fucking wild. How? Do you believe in God? You're shoving things up in a woman and doing horrible things then you're like, why don't want God to be mad at me? Like, are you fucking nuts? Does he believe in God? He because he said that do you believe in God because I would like to gather whatever is left of Carla and give her a Christian burial so the good Lord can grant her some peace. You understand what a Christian burial is, don't you? And he nodded his head that he did. Yeah. So the cop said, would you like to take a ride with me to your parents house there so you can point out the location of the grave? Help us out. John said, no, but he said, I'll draw you a map though. Uh huh. He fucking gives it up. He draws a map. You're so good at maps. Yep. They do that. And he indicates where they could find the grave. A hundred yards from Rock Creek Road, not far from the barn. They get there and it is. That's where they find him. That's where they find Carla. Yeah. They get back to the property. They start digging it out, digging her up. He had to surround the whole grave site, photograph it, they got hand tools, they have to sit through their evidence here for forensic evidence and it's a person's remains. You don't want to just hack through them and it's got to be respectful here. So as they go through it, they uncover a purple jacket, a bronze panties and a hypodermic needle. Yeah. One, two, three. Uh, they uncover the skeletal remains of her beneath about a foot and a half of soil. A tuft of matted hair was still attached to her skull. They said part of her left leg and foot were missing because he ate them in it. Yep. The remains were carefully collected, placed in body bags and then driven for everything the, for driven into the, the offices there, the, oh, uh, oh, don'tologists that had worked on her at x-rays and they, so they could identify her teeth, identify her 100%. Cadaver dogs are sent for two days around the body around the whole property looking for other bodies and they don't find anything else. They tracked down his sunbird, which had been sold and then sold again. It's been sold twice as he's had it, but they have a warrant and they impounded. Some poor guy paid $120 for this fucking car. It's his only form of transportation and now they took it and impounded it for shit. He had nothing to do with. That sucks. I hope they gave them another shit car in return. Here you go. Here's a one I had. Here's a chavette from. Yeah. So they had it towed in and they go over it. The trunk had hairs matched in color and texture to the hairs that were still attached to Carlos skull and then about two weeks after this all happened, John's dad comes into the police station with a big box full full of his son shit among the items were two 25 caliber handguns, several pads and notebooks into which he had written out in painstaking detail, crazy scenarios for kidnapping and torture. Oh my. Based on the writings, they concluded he's also been actively stalking before they caught him a Phillips high school cheerleader, a specific one that he was going to do this to as well. Dude, this could have never ended. If you go forever. Yeah. Yeah. So they're like, holy shit. So then they start tracking all of his travels over the last however amount of time. They said, when does he start being weird 11? Since he was 11, they've been then they start looking for everything when he was in the army they had to go over everywhere he's been just to make sure he's in Germany for Christ's sake. Yeah. They were looking for unsolved cases involving dead or missing young women, but they were never able to make any connections that would stand up in court. Just coincidences, nothing that they had evidence on. They interviewed John's friends and coworkers. And one of them said that John had expressed a keen interest in Satanism. He said John had told him that certain rock and roll records contain hidden messages from the devil. Damn it. Docking. God damn fucking docking. I don't think it was done. It was bread. Bread will bread will make you do crazy shit, man. You don't want to you listen to the Bee Gees long enough. You'll snap. You'll snap. That's CCR. It all sounds the same enough that it'll it'll it'll drive you crazy. It will drive you insane. It will drive you insane. At any of my streaming things, no, it's all out. I can't do it. I can't fucking do CCR anymore. I'm all CCR out. I heard all the songs and I am done with them. There's too many. And they're great. Everyone. John Fogarty, you're an amazing artist, man, but it's too much. Your voice is just annoying. It's like if someone if I love pizza, if someone maybe pizza three meals a day for two years, I'd never eat fucking pizza again. And that's the equivalent of living in a world with CCR that exists. You can't get away from it ever. It's just commercials, everything. It's just a bunch of wine and just bitching constantly and then just not saying shit. Do not do looking out my back door. Well, how about you write a fucking song while you're doing that? And then come back to me and sing it for me. That's not a song. Close the fucking door then. Yeah. You get some peace and quiet. You can write a decent song. You can fucking write something. That's the problem. You're not concentrating on your work is the problem. I wish you were a fortunate song and you could write me a fortunate song. Write me a fortunate song, you fucking asshole. Yes, I've heard about the rain and I've seen the rain and heard about it. I know everything. Okay. I'm gonna fuck up and write a song. A different one. No, not that one again. Not the same one. Yeah. Not the same one you've been writing for 10 fucking years, guys. Yeah, I'd rather be running through a jungle to be honest. Same fucking beat. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Okay. So the newspapers go back shit. Yeah. They go fucking crazy, obviously. The weekly world news even has a big thing, which is the tabloid supermarket, the boy born with the head of a bat. It's that one. The headline is husband digs wife's grave while she watches. That's the headline. That's the weird thing they got out of that whole thing. And then his sister, her sister's leg. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's the weird one. So pretty soon he's being compared to Ed Gain because he's the most famous guy and most famous sick fuck in Wisconsin until the next three years from now. There's a reason why you've never heard of this guy because after Dahmer got found in '91. The craziest thing. You can't talk that. Everything back to the game was washed away. Yeah. Right. So there's 14 of these. This guy's only got two that we know of. Yeah. We got 14 for sure. Yeah. He kept it. He didn't go bury the rest. No. He kept it. Yeah. So Emily, maybe this inspired Dahmer though. You never know. Maybe. He would have read about it. We don't know. Would be in Wisconsin. He would have been. Dahmer would have been doing it at this time. Yeah. Yeah. He would have been involved. Like, man, this guy, we are. I got to get with this guy. Thank fuck. There was no internet because he's two would have found each other. They're living in a chat room. Can you imagine? Oh my God. Forget about it. Forget about it. Discord or a fucking... giving exchanging recipes. Forget about it. You don't want to... Have you tried Montreal? Have you tried tits with this spice on it? Oh no. I like a man's penis with that on it. Oh, really? Okay. We go back and forth. Montreal penis. It's delicious. We can both agree on Kath Meat though is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Emily was an intensive care for 16 days after that. Intensive care for 16 days. Good. Not the hospital. So they charge him with one count of first degree murder in the death of Carla who disappeared, also charged with attempting to murder his wife and two counts each of first degree sexual assault, kidnapping by deceit and false imprisonment. Yeah. They charge him with Shelley Hanson. They have nothing to go on. He won't admit to. Yeah. There's no bond. I mean, it's... He probably... What are the fucking odds? Someone else in this small town is going to fucking kidnap a killer girl that he is hanging out with on the anniversary of him killing another girl. It's... Come on. He did it. So in a letter to his parents, he apologizes this from jail. He said he apologized for breaking their hearts and he planned to commit suicide before the trial in order to spare them the heartache and embarrassment. He admitted that he intended to kill Emily when he attacked her and he admitted killing Carla but denied torturing her. He said, "All that stuff they said is crazy, though. Stuff on the tape was just for shock value." Except for the way the conditions she's found match is what you said. But yeah, no, he was like... It was just like a goth teen just for shock value, just trying to make my grandma uncomfortable. That's all, you know. So he said he wrote that he lost control and strangled her when she refused to run away with him. He closed by comparing himself to Charles Manson and John Wayne Gacy. Oh. Yeah, he said, "I'm like those guys." He said, "I'll bet they'll make a TV movie out of this. I always wanted to be a star." Well, nobody's hurting you, man. Holy shit. Yeah, too bad Dommer stole his thunder. He was sitting there like, "I'm gonna be a star." He ate how many people? How many? Fuck! God damn fucking for real. I can't do anything, man. Fuck. I'm the youngest. I tried to deal with my thunder and now there's this. There's this. So hard. It's so hard. He said that he apologized. He wrote the letter to his in-laws as well that we talked about before. He apologized for all the pain and suffering I've caused your family, you know, killed one daughter, tried to kill another. But he wanted them to, quote, "understand my side of this." Whoa. Boy. How much of a narcissist do you have to be? To be like, "But you haven't heard what I have. It hurts me, too." This limp dick, how dare you? He said, "What happened was literally beyond his control." He used the word literally. He said, quote, "I literally became someone else." I refer to it as my dark side, like my like Dexter, dark passenger. He wrote that his heavy drinking didn't help matters and he, but no means in using that as an excuse. He said he never loved to respect it himself. He thanked God that Emily was spared. He said, "She's a wonderful woman capable of a lot of love if given the chance. I never gave her or myself the chance." Then he wrote a letter to Emily saying he still loved her and it was his love that made him stop beating her and not kill her. I did this out of love. See this? That's his love right here. He apologized for accusing her of cheating and he said the accusation did not come from her. It came from who, Jimmy? Not us. Not us, exactly. Yeah. None of those letters were delivered. They were instead confiscated and put into evidence because he's admitting to crimes during them. So that's pretty bad there. He will end up pleading guilty to murder. Well, yeah. Who the fuck? How's he going to get? You can't. You can't do anything else. Yeah. He drew a map to the body since he did it. That's it. But not guilty to the other shit though, he, well, so yeah, he pleads guilty to murder and pleads not guilty to the torture things here too. He pleads guilty to kidnap murder and seven charges regarding the torture and attempted murder of his wife. But he said he didn't torture Carla before he killed her. I don't know why that's so important for him to, to deal with here, but he's, yeah. He's ashamed. Mm hmm. The judge asked him, did you kill your 17 year old sister-in-law? He said, yes. They said, did you torture your wife? He said, yes. Oh, so the judge read nine of 18 charges in connection with the murder of Carla and the attempted murder of Emily. And yeah, he sat there and they asked him if he burned her with a cigar, a lighted cigar, stick to just stick a safety pin in her breast, did you beat her in the head with a shovel, did you rape her with a wheelbarrow handle and all that kind of shit. He also is pleading insanity as well. So that's a two-phase trial, guilt or innocence, and then your mental state and your sentencing. So he's going to plead and then try to plead, then try to plead insanity during the sentencing part. So they'll send him to a institution. He maintained the not guilty pleas to four counts of sexual assault, three counts of rape, false imprisonment, and sexual disfigurement regarding Carla's death. So this is fucking crazy. The pretrial here, the jury stuff is pretty interesting actually, too, because it's a two-phase thing and they have to, because there's so much stuff going on in media attention, they have to sequester the jury and they say it's going to take weeks. So it's a nine women and five men and they'll remain sequester, sequester. They expect it to be a two to three week trial. They say in the paper, quote, "Those chosen appear to be older than 30 with professions ranging from a nurse to a computer specialist and a man who operates a foster home." The ones they excused included a woman who said she thought pornographic magazines influence people to commit sexual crimes. Yeah, we don't want her around, just because she's no fun. Never mind legalistically, who wants to hang out with that broad for two and a half weeks? Jesus Christ, can't even whack it. And another woman who said she would be upset if the testimony became too graphic. Well, you should keep on, yeah, walk on by, sister, yeah, that's it. One man was also excused because he had a plan trip to Jamaica and he said that he wouldn't be able, it's non-refundable, he said, I can't reschedule it. I'm going to be out like two grand. And the judge said, quote, "Have a rum punch on me," and excused him. Enjoy your jerk chicken. Yeah, enjoy. So they said they're going to introduce testimony about a shotgun shell and hypodermic needle found near the grave site. And they said the shell and the needle were in John Webber's car trunk, the same place the tape recording states that he kept her for five days, Carla. It establishes a link with the tape that he carted around the remains before depositing them in the grave site. The part of the recording includes John Webber's statements about cannibalism will not be heard during the trial. Is that right? They said we're not going to talk about it. We're not going to talk about it because there was no law saying you couldn't eat people. So because it's not being charged as a crime, they're saying it's inflammatory to say he ate people. But to me, he fucking ate people. You got to bring that up, right? You can't have people not knowing that he's hungry for human flesh like they have to know that. Yes. How did this case happen? And then the very next day not go, oh, well, wait, there's no law on the books. We got to write that right now. They started doing laws in the last, like maybe 10 to 15 years against cannibalism since Dom or it came up because before that, I don't think they really thought it happened enough to really make it an issue. And they were like, well, if you're eating someone, you probably killed them too. So we'll worry about that part of it. The eating really doesn't matter. Let's go at the murder part because who can't? Yeah. Yeah. That's a different story, but what if what if a train hit somebody and you're just sitting there snacking? Is that illegal or not? Yeah. Oh, by the way, he then says later on, too, they find out they find writings where he talked about how he dug up fresh graves and cut pieces of women off and brought them home and ate them. Is that right? This is a thing that he does. Yeah. Yeah. He dug graves up. Then he'd fucking put them back together again, fucking so no one would know. Do there's formaldehyde in that? You can't eat that. He ate it. Oh, my God. I think it's like eating like bad pork. If you cook it enough, then you'll you got to cook all the poison out eventually. Ooh, wait. Just cook it till it's leather. Will you get fucked up, you think? I mean, maybe it'd be like on, when you're on dust, if you smoke it, like you smoke formaldehyde maybe. Jesus. So no cannibalism evidence given, which is insane, absolutely insane. The public defender said the information shouldn't be considered. He also asked the court to order the media to leave the courtroom before discussing the request saying it would be too prejudicial to potential jurors. Wow. The judge said this is great. I will agree. I won't mention the district attorney said this, I'm sorry. I will agree. I won't mention the magic C word. That's not the same one. That's not. You can't say it like that. Yeah. I bet you won't. Probably. Yeah. I want to get you divorced. I'm going to go ahead and make a bet that normally prosecutors don't say the word cunt during a murder trial in front of the jury. Just as a fucking. Yeah. Yeah. It's cannibalism here. We're not going to call it the C word shit. The judge also, though, rules that it can be brought up during the second phase of the trial, which is the insanity sentencing phase. So ruled on a bunch of motions as well, talking about, you know, evidence can be brought in about his interest in witchcraft or Satanism as well, he's trying not to be inflammatory, I guess. The judge said that his first, the first said the evidence on Emily Weber's statement that her husband was speaking in two voices during the attack wouldn't be allowed either, which is wild. But then the judge held a formal ruling and said it doesn't make any difference how many people were inside John Weber's body. It's whether the body committed the acts. The second phase is whether he's crazy. This phase is Diddy killer. So they said they're going to let it in. They also ruled on the physical evidence, like the hypodermic needles and all that and that they said that's they're going to do that because that the items we wish to present show preparation intent and motive on knife and that he dug two graves. Yeah, I would fucking say so. He told deputies he only made the tape to scare his wife. So they said, you shouldn't let that in, but they said, Oh, no, that's coming in. That's coming in minus the part about eating people will cut that part out. They said the photographs, they asked that just no color. They said, quote, there's no need for the color except to inflame the jury's passions against Mr. Weber. They're highly inflammatory. They're disgusting. The photos black and white is all they want. So they want just black and white allowed. So also good character evidence regarding Carla will be allowed in, meaning that she said she wanted to become a counselor and that people liked her and all that kind of shit. Like you weren't just killing like some asshole that everyone hated and was a dickhead. Also hospital records will all be allowed of Emily's shit. And yeah, also they said that his he has MS, by the way, John, not severely, but he's been diagnosed with MS and they said that can be mentioned as well. Yeah. So one thing we do know is hopefully at the end of this, he is in a lot of pain sleeping on a prison cop with MS that shit hurts. That's a shit disease. I hope it's a very, I hope it's not even a cop. I hope it's a concrete fucking ledge. That would be fucking great. So they said that the tape would be allowed in because the conduct have exhibited like the exact shit he said. If it didn't match up, then it wouldn't do it. But they said because it matches up so well to what happened, you got to let it in. They said the defendant's conduct, not only did the defendant's conduct not exhibit an actual subjective expectation of privacy because they're saying that he's saying that he had an expectation of privacy of what was on the tape. They're like, no, you don't, your car was being searched and taken apart. They said also it was in full view in the open accessible to anyone in the vehicle, especially a police officer who was there and they said that's reasonable. They said they conclude that the playing of the tape found in the cassette player of the, of his unlocked car did not amount to a search of the tapes since he made no, he had no reasonable expectation of privacy on the tape in the first place. They said, yeah, they would have to, the defendant would have us view the tape as a container and in the course of an inventory search, exclude the tape under the law of seizure and search containers. So it was like inside of a safe that they couldn't get into something like that. But that's not what they're saying because it was sticking out. They said it's not like a 35 millimeter slide would be considered. They said any more than that would be considered a container for the image. It's not. So they said that the wound tape is covered partially by some protective plastic, just as a slide is covered partially by some protective plastic or cardboard, but the actual audio cassette in and of itself is not capable of holding another object as a container is. So there you go. The shrink here is the guy who also examined Ed Gaine. Really? Yeah. He's like, I got to see this guy. I found another one, William J. Crowley. He was not allowed to have mentioned the game case if asked about the experience. If asked at his experience in court, he wasn't allowed to say he talked to Ed Gaine because that would prejudice the jury. Like, oh, we talked to that psychopath now he's talking to this one. Wow. That's very interesting. So the trial comes up here. Very tight security. People have to go through metal detectors and get wandered down in a tiny town because somebody's going to try and kill him. Someone's going to come in with a hunting rifle and shoot this one. All these people have shitloads of guns. Shitloads of guns and this is he's a disgusting person. So he's really inflamed a lot of ire from the community here. They're armed to the teeth and he's certainly a problem that needs to be dealt with. And they have guns that they're worried about getting attacked by bears when they go outside. Like, you know, woods up here, like, this is bear country, like they're, these are strong ones. Yeah. So this is bats. Yeah. Emily's the star witness, obviously. Right. Yeah. First, they had to go through all the thing. What kind of cigarettes does he smoke? Salem lights. What kind of beer does he drink? I think they go through the whole deal. Also what kind of guns does he own? A 410 gauge shotgun, 22 caliber rifle, 25 caliber pistol. And they said he was an avid hunter as well, which he was. Then they said the night that Carla disappeared, would your husband have known that Carla and Joe were home alone that night? She said, yes. They said, would it have been unusual for your sister Carla to have left home at that time, that time of the night after everybody else had gone to work and said, yes, and they go through all that, she would never have left the house. You know, it would have to have been for a very short time. So Emily describes her entire ordeal. She said, quote, he said, if I didn't write it, he would cut my boobs off about the messaging. She talks about being kicked and punched as hard as he could punch her, striking her with a shovel, using a lit cigar to burn her all over her body, putting safety pins. We went over it all. She said, I was on my knees. He started kicking me in the head and he was hitting me with a shovel. He was going, he said, I was going to be a tough one to kill. Now the cross examination, what do you say? This is all proven. He admitted this. The defense attorney said, did you smell alcohol on his breath that night? You know, if he'd been drinking. And she said that he put her in the tub and cleaned her wounds. He didn't know what she didn't know whether he was drinking or not, she didn't smell it. So yeah, they during this, by the way, the Hanson family is like, hey, you know, this is our guy right fucking here. The one guy said, I'm wondering, one family member, I wonder like everyone else, I think it's curious. Weber's not saying saying anything. He won't discuss anything with, he won't discuss anything with his lawyer or do anything like that. They said, there's a lot of weird people in this world. I just hope Shelly, and then he says, every day I pray to St. Anthony that they will find my Shelly. I like candles at the church and when people ask me what they can do, I tell them to remember Shelly in their prayers. Oh, that's fucked up. St. Anthony is the one where you lose things, right? Lost. Yeah, that's a big Italian thing. So I think Hanson is short for something. I think they shortened it when they got here. So I'm sure. Yeah. Hanson, Eroni. So the November 12th, they talk about the defense closing says November 12th, 1986, John Weber kidnapped and murdered his sister-in-law. Okay. That's the defense, by the way. On September 3rd, 1988, Mr. Weber kidnapped sexually assaulted and physically assaulted his wife, Emily Weber. He went over all the charges. He said, he's guilty of what he has done. It doesn't necessarily follow that he's guilty of what he's charged with. He said, ladies and gentlemen, John Weber is guilty of some vile and disgusting acts. No question about that. But the tape was a fabrication made to frighten his wife. He said if John Weber had cut the breast off a living person, it would generate a lot of blood. And they said there wasn't a lot of blood in the sunbirds trunk, which he could have hosed out like Henry Hill. I hit a skunk car in it, right? So the verdict comes in, who knows here, you never know, guilty of everything. Yeah. Fuck that. Guilty of all charges here. Then in the second phase, then now they go into, you know, is he sane or is he insane? Yeah. He's suffering. His attorney said he's suffering from a mental defect when he attacked Carla. He said his client was a sexual sadist who derived sexual pleasure from torturing and humiliating women. He said since a very young age, John Weber's built an elaborate mechanism, an internal device to deal with his illness and to hide the extent of that illness from other people, his family, his friends, his wife and the doctors who've attended him said and the state said they would prove that he was intoxicated during both attacks, which they said were motivated by hatred and jealousy. They said he meticulously planned each attack weeks in advance got drunk so he could carry them out. That gave him the balls like Jeffrey Donner did the same thing. That's very much. You got to put him in the mix too. Wow. Dahmer and David Parker Ray are not a good mix to have some Ted Bundy and a little bit of BTK sprinkled on top and then just just too stupid to execute further. He could have been like serial killer Voltron like the fucking worst of all worlds like all put together. If he's smart at all, he can really do a lot of damage to people. Man. And it's at the time when it's so easy to do horrible things because you're not being tracked and videotaped everywhere. Yeah. No, there's no videotaped. Nobody's got GPS on their phone that shows everywhere they went. So then they explained also that this is not his fault, not his. His mom testifies too. And they talked about his bed webbing and finding magazines, magazines, she said, they said were the magazines hardcore. She said, very, I only had to read about three lines and I destroyed them. She said they were nothing like Playboy and she said it just kept happening. She kept finding them. She referred to them as stinky magazines. Right. Right. It's a very innocent Wisconsin lady. She also testified to discovering detailed plans written in John's handwriting for sexually abusive acts against his own sister, one of his female teachers and a female schoolmate. Oh, my. And yeah, they also found out that she was disapproving of his marriage to Emily. They say, in your mind, do you consider Emily to be at least partly the reason John finds himself in the predicament he's in? This is the defense attorney. His mom says, quote, I do. How? How? How could that? Yeah. They said, why is that? Because they thought forever and ever and over everything. And then they said, do you think that the attack on Emily was sparked by anger? And she said, yes, they brought the sister in Kathy. Oh, man. She said, yeah, he was such a good kind man who was kind to animals and helpful to his neighbors. She said he couldn't find a person with a bigger heart. He'd do anything for anybody. He shoveled all the neighbor's walks who shovels a bad one and mowed their lawn. The elderly women who couldn't do it themselves, he'd go and do it. He was so good-hearted. But then she talked about hearing him argue with his other personality, Natas, and all that kind of shit. And she said, I just felt that it was sick of me to think that he did the things to Carla when she disappeared. To put the blame on somebody who's trying to do better, I felt guilty for even thinking those thoughts. Yeah, they find him sane and ready to go to prison. He's an asshole, but saying sentencing comes around. And they say anything to say for yourself, Johnny Boy. Right. He says, regardless of the facts and the verdict of the jury, for a number of years, there's been something seriously wrong with me. Whether I had control or not is up to each individual to decide. It does no good to say I'm sorry. I can't take back the hurt I've caused to the lens family and my own family. It's wherever you send me, I ask that treatment be available. I have to find out why. This is a terrible waste of a man who had everything he needed for a happy life to just throw it away. It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah. The judge said, yeah, yeah, well, I got to find out why it's down there. Yeah, what the fuck's up with me? The judge said, quote, I know one thing. There are a lot of extremely thankful ex-girlfriends out there who are thankful to be ex-girlfriends that are still alive. Yeah. His judge, this judge is a sense of humor. Have a run punch on me. Some jokes. Yeah. He said, this court must ensure that no other unsuspecting female is ever exposed to your poverty. There's no way that I could face the family of such a girl. The Bible says that three score in 10 years is a lifetime. By that measure, the maximum penalty you face is equal to five lifetimes. For many, that would still be too good for you. There's nothing this court could do that would be sufficient punishment in the eyes of the public. The problem is that we live in a civilized society and we treat criminals in a civilized manner. We don't have adequate punishment for such uncivilized conduct. We don't even expect this crazy shit to happen. We don't know how to do this. He said, the best punishment would be to turn you over to Carla's brothers for 24 hours, but that would be an uncivilized solution. He said, you must never be free. You must never be in a position where this can happen again. He said that Carla lends his last words on this planet where, God damn you, John. He said, then he said, many people wish the court had that authority. The punishment will have to come from court from a court much higher than this one. You, sir, may fuck off a life plus 164 years and nine months in prison and nine months life plus one plus one 64 nine. That's a fuck off, Mr. Not interested in you quickly, by the way, he appeals this and it's overturned based on the fact that they rule that the tape listening to the tape, which led to everything else was a bad search. They said that the playing of the tape was without probable cause because the plain view doctrine could not be used to justify the search of a tape's contents in addition because the tape was completely unrelated to the object sought in the crime against Emily. You could shoot it and beat her with a tape and because the police had no basis for believing the tape disclosed evidence of any other quant crime playing the tape would not be justified. But the next year, this was 1990. They overturned his murder, his murder conviction and 10 additional convictions in this, but he tries to get the rest tossed as well. But then the prosecution appeals that decision and they go, Nope, tape's good. Everything's back in. Fuck off. Life plus one 64 nine. Dicks, Emily divorces him shortly after his conviction. That kind of goes without saying in prison, he was remanded to the custody of the Wisconsin State Department of Corrections, had a brief stay at the Dodge reception center. Then he was transferred to Columbia Correctional Institution where he's joined about a year and a half later by Jeffrey Dahmer. Wow. Same fucking buildings. How's these two? The monsters here, Dahmer, of course, was murdered by an inmate in 1984, but in 2001, John was transferred to the Green Bay Correctional Facility and he remains there. Can you get a hold of them? Yeah. Remains there to this day. So there he is. Wow. That is fucked up to say the least. What a monster. That's a monster. That's Philip, Wisconsin, everybody. That's crazy. Wisconsin. Wow. Disturbing. Sorry for that. Disturbing stuff because that's the story. I mean, we got to tell the story the way it is. We can't cut stuff out and go, "Well, we thought that was too mean." Like, it's a murder. It's all terrible. Yeah. So definitely, if you like the way, we won't say if you like that story. If you like the way we told that story and thought it was quality, please give us a review on whatever happens. You're on there. It doesn't matter. Just say something nice. Five stars and say something very nice. Tell us your following instructions. That's fine. We don't care. Tell us you would never do any of the stuff that that guy did, that John Weber did. So do them. Do them. You get much better. Follow us on social media. We're @smalltownmurger on Instagram and @smalltownpot on Facebook and @murgersmall on Twitter. So follow us all up there. Hang out with us. Head over to shutup and givememurger.com not only for all the merch you could possibly want. Everything from coffee cups to skateboards, but also tickets for live shows. The rest of the year, our first two were amazing. We had so much fun. Sacramento, San Francisco. You kicked it off right. Thank you for doing that. Next up is Durham and Nashville at the end of May at Durham, still some tickets left available there. Nashville has not been a seat available there for months. Unbelievable. Thank you for selling that out. It's a nice big theater. Sweet. Durham too. It's a nice theater. Get on in there and get your tickets. Beautiful. It's almost sold out, but get your tickets. Get in there. Sell it out and finish it up there. So get those. Also, 420, April the 20th, the annual 420 virtual live show. We're so excited. Can't get to a live show or you need more live shows. Anywhere you are on this planet Earth that you can get Wi-Fi. You can get this show. It is available for another two weeks after it airs too, where you can watch it a hundred times. You can buy it during that. You can do whatever you want with it for two weeks. It's all yours. So we're real excited for that. It's a Saturday night. Come party with us. Shut up and give me murder.com patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all of your bonus material. We got a ton, $5 a month or above, a mere cup of coffee. You can get way more shit than that. You can get hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before of bonus stuff and new episodes every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. How much of that do they get? Every goddamn drop. This week for crime in sports, what you get, you're going to talk about the trials and tribulations of Hulk Hogan. His kid kills people. He makes sex tapes. He's Sue's gawkery. He yells the N word. He's a Christian. It's all weird. We'll talk all about it. Then, let's talk about for small town murder. Back by popular demand. It's time to do it again. We're going to talk about the weirdest small town festivals we can find and what goes on there and what kind of pageants and races and fucking things they do with tractors. We'll hear all about it. We cannot wait patreon.com/crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show because fuck we appreciate you and we have to give you a shout out. So that's said, Jimmie, hit me with the names of the most wonderful, wonderful people on the face of this earth. Just tell me who they are. I need to know they'd never inject me with a hypodermic needle full of lighter fluid. Hit me with them now. This week's executive producers are Greg Drearer? I believe Gregory Drearer? I think. Dree her? Hey. Oh, there's Maher. That's a kicker. It might be Dreher. Or maybe her. God damn it. Thank you. Dreher. I don't even know her. Kyle Norweg and his Crown Royal bag. Good for you, Kyle. Lisa Pittman. Raptor one. Happy birthday from Raptor two over. That is Andrea Stanchen. I don't know who Raptor two is or one. It's somebody's birthday and it's somebody close to or so. Happy birthday. Happy damn birthday. Ryan Christopher also our executives. We appreciate you. Thank you so much. Other producers this week are Scarlett Horbeast and Estebez Jones James from the banks of the Tug River. Wow. Very nice. P.D. officer Murray Greshener. I believe that's from NYPD Blue. I think it is possible. Oregon player that the Hanson bros hit with a pocket. Oh, that's right. That guy too. Fading Meadows. Had a tough day. Jennifer Ward, Janice Hill, die cast 360, Rebecca J, Elizabeth Domingo Raven with no last name. Oh, actually die cast, I believe is an exec is the he is. What did I do that for? I put in the wrong spot. I apologize. You're fucking outstanding in over the top also, Elizabeth Domingo Raven with no last name. Robert goes exploring Judy Barry, Matthew Shields, Jessica G. Ashley Boone, Jenny, Jenny Mike's me. Maybe I'm not sure. Ryan burrow. Heather. Nope. That's Hunter. Hunter Martin. Hey, sorry. Eric. I'm a race. Chantelle Vasquez. Jennifer Rothgeb. Tawny with no last name, Melanie Renton, Anthony Phil. Oh, it's Andy Felter Bush. And he probably didn't love James's voice. That's somebody. Michael Bales. Thank you. Yeah. Bales. Arson at catnip. That's fucking disgusting. Mean. Don't do that. You fucking monster. Caroline. Caroline. Maybe. Cione. Rose McCoy, Brandon holiday, Christopher sub clef. Mike Lambright, Kristen Schmidt, Miley with no last name, Gerald Ribbons, Biz with no last name, Brandon Pavlov, Elijah W. The Doyle with no last name, just one. The Doyle. No, I get it. Yeah, exactly. No, I get it. Pot. I believe that's, I don't know. Amy Folger. That's not somebody's name. Owen Coates. Devin. Devin Nellie Randall, Wade Halverson, Vowel Burge, Rebecca Rebecca. It's maybe her first and last or just her first or Lisa Lisa. That's exactly what it is. Angelique. Artichochio. Artichochio. Artichichio. Or Chocho. Chocho. That's not right. Either. That's gross. Walla in that Italian last name, Jimmy. Lattradekta. Lattradekta. I don't know what that is. That might be. It's a dinosaur, isn't it? Oh, it maybe. Is it a flying dinosaur? A lack of vector? I don't know. Sure. Sean Donnelly, Jacob Ricketts, Holly Hallborg, Chart Ganesh, I believe. Megan Cravens, John Fier, oh, like lawyer, but Fier. Christina Lapensky. Cora Hudson, Justin with no last name, Mary Jean C. Antiroitz, Sam Ritz, Katherine Gagne, Natasha Tanner, Lauren Williams, Aaron Clark. Holly. Holly Castavitchini. Yeah. Castavinci. Jarrett. Jarrett Bradweight. Angela Nowgensch. All right. Now it's getting fucked up. New gentleman. Philist with no last name, Chris Livingston, Valera 70, Molly Ott, Kristen Frazier, Lucy Bryant, Alia, Yarday, B.O.F., Harvey Fox, Jonathan Rodriguez, Nikki G.J.T. with no last name, Luca, Chia Fredo, Abigail Mitchener, Kristi Robison. Christine Cinquent, Corgrana, Cinca, Cinca, Granner, Brooklin, you went over the white line on the side for a second, we pulled it back on the road. Jeff with no last name, Nicole Durand, Krupa Shelby, Metcalf Gretchen with no last name, Darren Sutton, Jesse Williams, Jen Carr, Dakota, nope, that's Dark Lotus Kisses. Jeff Keene, live for today, Stephanie Brevig, Ollie Terry, Sean Holder, Cam Sharpey, Beth Bot, Alison Barham, Levan Herrera, Josh Taylor, Julie with no last name, Rachel with no last name, Tanya Vieira, Remy with no last name, Britt Fulkerson, Claudette with no last name, Trevor O'Connor, Tawny with no last name, Rita Waltz, Benjamin Streisick, Aubrey H., Susan Kelly, Amy Edwards, Keely Reinert, Steph Earl, Billy Harris, Kimberly Dyer, Tammy Sappington, Dylan Fisher, Elizabeth with no last name, Eric Chopin, like Frederick Chopin, maybe it's Eric Chopin. John Scarbejio, Mom, Bob, WG, Bobbie, here both, Carla, Carla Jean, Nicole Reza, Daniella Johnson, Aaron Julius, Katie Oliver, Cara, Lam, Gah, oh boy, Lamgar Bardi, Lam, Lam, Lam, what long, Bullgar, all right, Ray Bullock, I've done my best, Michael Humeki, Ryan Black, Ashley Caser, Edward with no last name, John Shine, Stephanie Taylor, Nina Slowinska, Maria with no last name, oh it's Marie, Caitlin M, Heather Chasten, Chastain, Eric Sumsione, Cody Giles, Bridget Seidel, Shandy, Shandy Brown, draft Tonne, Victoria Moore, Andrew Narsh, Melanie Lood, Andrea, Adriana, Farmer, Isaiah Vigue, Paul Bros, Paul the Brothers, Rachel, nope, yeah it is, Rachel Henry Ricketts, Rene Burdett, Christine Gillette, Tom Scott, Charlotte Warner, Ashley Janssen, Michelle LaPointe, Will F, Leah Norton, Lefty Vegan, oh boy, Scott Fulmsenby, Tracy B, Bud, what is this, Budsie daisies, and everybody who came to our fucking shows this weekend and donated via Patreon, PayPal, ever, you guys are fucking amazing, thank you so much. Thank you everybody so much. From the bottom of our hearts we appreciate all that you do for us and all that you've done for us, thank you, thank you, thank you, you want to find us out there on social media very easy, the website has all of our links to everything, so find it, follow us, hang out with us, keep coming back, and we'll be back, and until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye! Hey Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts, before you go tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com/survey. Whether you're working out, walking or running errands, Audible can help you keep your heart rate up month after month with their pulse pounding collection of thrilling audiobooks that you can't hear anywhere else. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalogue, which includes thousands of titles. This month, check out the Audible Original, the space within. It's a chilling eight-part story about a psychiatrist, Dr. Maddie Weil, voiced by Academy Award winner Jessica Chastain, who is tasked with unlocking the memories of a child who went missing for seven hours. Maddie soon discovers that there are more who have faced similar experiences, and the truth of what is happening to them may impact the fate of humankind. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit Audible.com/Thrill or text Thrill to 500-500. That's Audible.com/Thrill or text Thrill to 500-500.
