(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler cards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a while and a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, rewatch. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello, peeps. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows." This is Tori. - And this is Rebecca. And we're watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, episode 15, phases. Or as I like to call it, men behaving very badly. (laughs) - That's good, I mean, the toxic masculinity of this episode is over the top. - Oh, way over the top. - But way over the top. - I was reading that Mark Fieldbook, you know, that I've got the myth metaphor morality thing. And he was talking about the, I'd never heard this before, and I apologize to everybody who can speak German, 'cause I'm gonna butcher this, is storm undrong, which is storm and stress. He was referring to episodes 13, 14, and he's like, we kinda needed this comic relief. (laughs) - If only I found some of that humor funny. - Oh my gosh, Cain and Larry were just too much. They were just too much. I mean, the werewolf was the coolest guy in the episode. So. (laughs) Although I didn't like how the mouth didn't move and it was just always hanging open. - Oh no, the big suit was not great. But. - Yeah. - But at least the werewolf, werewolf didn't tick me off. Whereas Larry, we'll get to it, we'll get to it. - Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, you got a summary. - I sure do. - Lay it on me. - I tried to make it short, but it's not very short. So my apologies for that. Willow is ready to get physical with Oz, but something is not quite right about Oz. We meet Larry, who is a jerk to everyone. Cordelia and Xander get attacked by a werewolf while making out in lover's lane. Giles and Buffy try to capture the werewolf, but a werewolf hunter named Cain accidentally nets Buffy instead. Cain wants to kill the werewolf so he can sell its pelt. Angel back to his old ways, kills Teresa, a girl from school, and Angel and the werewolf face off. It is revealed that Oz is the werewolf, and he was recently bitten by his little cousin, who is apparently also a werewolf. This was weird, we'll talk about it. Xander suspects Larry is the werewolf and confronts him in the locker room. Turns out Larry is not a werewolf, he is gay. And when he invents it to Xander, thinking Xander is also gay, he turns into a real stand-up guy. Angel made Teresa vampire as a message to Buffy, so Buffy quickly dispatches her. Time for one more shot at the werewolf. Willow sees Oz change so she knows it's him. She ends up tranking him and everyone is cool with Oz being a werewolf. Will decide she still wants to date him, and Oz is a werewolf in love. - Very nice, very nice. And so their real relationship begins. - Oh my gosh, he's a werewolf. - Yeah, you know, I realized, before we get started too deep into this episode, that I totally forgot about doing the Rolling Stone rankings for episode 13 and 14. - Oh my gosh, we've got to get to that because those were good ones. - Yeah, yeah, and I think it was just 'cause it had been a while since we recorded for Buffy, but anyways, where did everybody know? - Weirdness, sorry. So for innocent, well, I guess I should do surprise first because that was the first episode. So episode 13 was ranked number 15. - Way up there. - Way up there and episode 14 was ranked number nine. - Oh my gosh, we've had our first in the top 10, is that right? - I think so. Let me just double check real quick on my trusty trusty list. I really should bookmark that in my notes. So I can quickly get to it. Here we go. ♪ Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum ♪ - Yep, it's for our first top 10. - That's very exciting. Well, well deserved. I agree with Rolling Stone on this one, even though I haven't, I can't remember all the episodes. I definitely would have put these high. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. This episode is ranked number 80. So it broke, well, it's not in the top half, but, you know, this is one of those midline ones. - Yeah, this one hasn't aged well. (laughs) ♪ Not at all, not at all ♪ This was written by Rob De Hotel and Dean Batali, and directed by Bruce Green. So, you know, although Marty, I mean, I was gonna say it's all men, but Marty Knox and I think, at least according to IMDB, was the story editor. So, I guess, you know, it's still the '90s though. - Yeah. - So not really all that surprising for the '90s. - Yes, I'm glad we have Oz as sort of this, of course, now he's a werewolf, but now that has this kind of example of male humanity. - Okay. - Got Giles II, Giles II, of course. - Yes. - But boy, these were rough. These were some rough single episode characters. Though Larry experienced a complete transformation, as soon as he addressed his self-loathing, but Kane, irredeemable. - Yeah, yeah. Although that changed his name. - I had to say, he was a little bit too fast for me. - Okay, too fast, and, you know, just... I'm so glad Zander handled it the way he did. I don't know, it was the '90s. I just, everything about Larry was traveling, the whole thing. Anyway, we'll get there when we get there. - Yeah, 'cause I'm like, what about Zander's handling that you like? Well, we'll get there. - That he didn't, that he didn't. I mean, just with how immature this episode kind of was, I felt like Zander didn't laugh or judge. I mean, he definitely didn't want Larry thinking he was gay. - He was gay, okay. - So that's not great. But he kept quiet about it. All of these things, I mean, for Zander, he knocked it out of the park. - Yeah, okay, I get it. - I would agree with that. - Okay. - But I do love the beginning of this episode, the cold opening is so funny. - With the cheerleader trophy? - Yes. - So, what a great call back. I agree. - That was. And Oz is like... - Oh, I get it. - Yeah. - It's so funny, he does it so well. I love how he plays Oz very understated. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, I continued. Even though he's a werewolf, I continue to really like the Oz character. - Oh, yes, yes. So I like how Oz handles the change, right? It's kind of how you would expect someone to handle it. They're weirded out, worried, concerned, and all of that. - Sure. - But he manages to kind of still be Oz, right? He's not taking on any of the characteristics of the werewolf as himself. - Does that make sense? - Agreed. - Agreed. - Is this the first time we meet Larry? - I don't remember him, and if we have met him, he wasn't this big a jerk the last time. - Yeah, I was trying to remember, but I just wrote down, "Larry, Larry, Larry." - My exact quote was, "Who is this dickhead?" (laughing) (laughing) - Oh, that's so funny. I thought there's probably a lot of people today if they're watching "Buffy" that don't know what a thymaster is. - Oh gosh. - Yeah, that was gross, it was just gross. - Everything, everything out of that kid's mouth until the revelation with Xander was just awful. - Yeah, I remember when I first watched this episode thinking, "That dude's overcompensating for something." - Mm, well, you were right. (laughing) I just can't remember knowing anyone like this in high school. Yes, immature, dumb jocks, that kind of stuff, but I did not know a Larry. - I didn't either, and I even thinking about some of the popular guys from my class, I can't imagine them doing that. Maybe they did it when it was just guys around, and nobody really overheard them. - Right. - Maybe they did do it, I don't know, but I really can't picture it. So hats off, BHS, class of '19, something. (laughing) - Seriously. Anyway, yes, so Larry was a lot. And Willow is ready to take this thing with Oz to the next level, but he's act a little strange. - He sure is, and you kind of wonder, I mean, is he just being a gentleman? Is he not? He would think Oz is one of those guys that would really pick up on cues. So maybe he's just trying to be a gentleman. - And he was so eloquently verbal with Willow about wanting to make out with her, but thinking it was the wrong time, because he felt like she was just trying to make Xander jealous. - Right. - But you'd think he'd be more communicative. - Right. Not too far out of that away from that. So maybe he just is still trying to take it slow because of that. - And frankly, Willow is still pissed about Xander and Cordelia. So I mean, he would not be wrong. - Agreed, agreed. But it's this Mark Field Guy again in that book talks about how the phases of this episode, 'cause it's called phases, it's not just about Oz being a werewolf, but he talks about how this episode, some of the underlying stuff is all about controlling urges and that everybody's kind of going through phases here, not just Oz. So he talks about how Willow is going through this phase. She even mentions a face, a particular phase she goes through, which is a funny scene, but she's kind of transitioning from her Xander phase to Oz phase. Buffy has to transition from angel to being post angel. - Yes. - And that angel has phased from angel to angelus. So, and everybody's clearly, angelus doesn't hear about controlling any of his urges. - No. - He's piercing this underlying like sucks, his bad kind of thing for this age group going on. But I thought that was kind of an interesting take on it. I hadn't really thought about anything beyond the obvious of the werewolf. - I like that. - Yeah, yeah. All right. Oh, Willow is kind of caddy in this one as Buffy remarks. - Mm-hmm. - Great. - I like him, Xander. Come on. What's his number? Oh, yeah. 1-800. I'm dating a Skanky Ho. - Yeah. - Oh. - That was a little, a little butch and Willow and where do you kind of confide in each other? - Yeah. - Not too much later in this episode. So clearly, I mean, you know, there's the jealousy Willow is having. - Right. - There's no doubt about that. So I'm going to, I'll allow it. Willow is always so good that she gets, she gets her time to let those baser urges out. At least, I mean, yes, that was crass, but nothing compared to Larry and Kane. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, for sure. For sure. - Oh, yeah, so after that, we're at the Lovers Lane with the, is it the same Lovers Lane you think that's later in the thing or? 'Cause it just looked like they were-- - I think so. - of the woods by themselves. - I think so. I think it's the same one. - Mm-hmm. - Maybe, Xander and Cordelia, I didn't even put that out yet. - Yes, and Cordelia's dad's car. (laughing) - Yeah. - Which unfortunately has, which was important that it had the fabric top, so that the, where Wolf could rip right into it. - I was thinking the same thing. (laughing) And I totally forgot, I don't know why, 'cause it has been a while since I've watched Buffy, but even though I've watched a lot, I was thinking, I know he breaks through, so that's gotta be camera-stopping at the metal top. - Yeah. - So good for thinking on, yeah, the what, what am I trying to say? On the, for the writers, duh. Hello, that hurt, trying to get that out. (laughing) - Sometimes it does hurt. (laughing) - Yeah. Then we have the opening credits. - Mm-hmm. - And this, where Wolf smashed through after the opening credits or before the opening credits? - It's-- - I don't have the opening credits jotted down. So I'm not sure. - Doesn't really matter, 'cause the next day they're just at the school. (laughing) - Yes, it seems like Cordelia and Xander are now sort of out, at least with the crew. - Yep, yep, the, I was gonna say something and give something away. I'm glad I caught myself. - Okay. - But I love Cordillo's outfit. I love that shirt and a little, although I didn't understand why she needed a turtleneck and then another sweater around her shoulders, but I still like it, look good on her. (laughing) - Nice. - And I love this scene because of Giles. - Tell me more. - He's just so giddy about this weird wall. - Yes, I must have been. I am intrigued. The Will Wolf is one of the classics, but I'm sure my books and I are in for a fascinating afternoon. - Yes, and I wondered, kind of threw out. I was a little bit like, have things improved with Jenny? - We didn't see Jenny at all, but he seems like in an incredibly good mood beyond just a new caper. You know, a new thing to be figuring out. - Yeah, and he actually finds something that's the under says funny. - Mm-hmm, yes. - Which is kind of unusual. - So something's off. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah. - Or on. - That's for sure. But I do like his little giddiness, it's a classic. - Yes. (laughing) - I suppose you have a bit to say about the next scene. - Oh God, you're talking the self-defense class. - Yes. - You know, okay, first of all, in its credit, I think this would have been a great thing to have in high school. - Yes. - At least for the girls. I think self-defense would have been really smart. I mean, I don't know how this all played out, you know? - Right. - But I props for the self-defense class happening. - Yes. - I did, of course, absolutely hate when Buffy was kind of standing up for Theresa and Willow was like, you gotta play dumb like the rest of us. You know, that's not exactly what she said. But I just hated it. (laughing) - Let Buffy be Buffy. - Yes, she eventually does anyways, but-- - Weak little girly girl might have been the term. And I said, "Screw off whole weak little girly girl, give him the pain." (laughing) - Yes, yes, yes, yes. - And I also said Dickhead might be the werewolf. He got bit of Dickhead is my affectionate name for Larry and tell me-- - Yeah, bit by a dog. He said a big dog. - So I thought that could have been the werewolf. - Right. Did you think Oz could be the werewolf after the scene? - Yes, I did. I'm afraid I was really looking to Oz being the werewolf. As you had said, this was a really Oz-centered episode. (laughing) - Sorry, I gave it away. - That's okay, that's all right. I suspected Oz immediately. And I was waiting to see things that might, but this did throw me a little off the scent. I thought that maybe Larry was or maybe there were two or something like that. - Yeah, a bit of red herring there. - Yes, yes. - My tribute question comes from the scene. - Oh boy. - So why does little baby nephew Jordy bite Oz? - Oh, dang it. You know, I almost went back to this scene because I remember him saying about he got bitten and then of course later he calls his aunt. - Right. - But I was, but I just sort of glossed over it. I do not know. - He doesn't like to be tickled. - Ah, which I am there with little cousin Jordy. I detest being tickled and have punched people. - Wow. - So, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I'm the only person, my dad used to tickle my sister and I and we would laugh and laugh, but I wouldn't say that I had really anybody else in my life even, you know, in intimate relationships. Never had anybody be a big tickler. It's a little weird. - Yeah, I remember one of my sister's friends was over one night and I'm not, I don't know why we were talking about tickling and I said, I really don't like to be tickled. I get quite violent and she goes really? And she tickled me and I just whacked her one with my fist. - Okay, she was just, that was not a smart move. You had just disclosed. - Yeah, yeah, I don't know, it makes me not breathe, right? And I start to panic and I just wail on who's ever tickling me. - Yeah, well, I hope it doesn't happen in your daily life because it's a breath. It's not a, it's not a personal thing. - It is, no, it's been a very long time to say that you tried to tickle me. - Well, rest assured, I shall never attempt it. (laughing) - Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. (laughing) - Yeah, okay, so back in, back in the gym, do you have anything else you wanna say about this scene? - The only thing, other thing I have written down is about Oz and that he's the king of understatement. - Yes. Yeah, Oz definitely seems to have some cool cred in this high school. - Mm-hmm. - And though I absolutely deplored the earlier conversation where Larry was like, you know, Willow must be putting out or blah, blah, blah. - Right. - Despite Oz is not taking part in such conversations, he's very much accepted and kind of admired. Probably the music thing. I probably, the band gets him a long way. - Yeah, yeah, but-- - But he could have stood up against that. - Well, he definitely could have done more, no doubt. - Yeah. - And I'm gonna give him a little bit of freedom as well because he did, he is recently vampire. I mean, werewolfed by his little cousin. (laughing) And we'll get to that scene. - Yeah, yeah. I did love in the library scene that's next of his comments. - In other words, your typical male. - On behalf of my gender, hey. - Yes, let's not jump to any conclusions. - I didn't jump. I took a tiny step in their conclusions more. - Uh-huh, uh-huh, hard to avoid in this episode. - It is, that's for sure. I did, you know, I did wonder, 'cause this is where they talk about that the werewolf is actually active for three nights in a row. - Yes. - And I wondered if that was a standard werewolf lore or if that's something that they made up. - It seems like, granted I only spent maybe 15 minutes looking to stuff up, but I think they just made it up. - Okay. - So, but man, I learned some stuff about werewolves just in that little bit of time that I spent looking at stuff and like tear more. They're a lot of different, you know, traditions involving werewolves and how they can become werewolves. Where's this one? Of course, getting bitten, but some of the early ones, they talk about that you have to eat the meat of a wolf and then put on the wolf pelt. And that's actually from Nordic folklore. There's this thing called the saga of the wolf songs, which is where a father and son discovered wolf pelt that had the power to turn people into wolves for 10 days. So they put them on and went on a killing rampage in the forest, but then the father attacked the son and killed him. Oh gosh. And then the son, well, I guess he didn't kill him. The son, I should have kept reading. The son only survived because a kind raven gave the father a leaf with healing, killing, healing. Good Lord, Tori, speak, remember the English language, gave them a leaf with healing powers, which I thought was kind of interesting, but I'm looking at this page on the history channel site. Yes. I don't think they're always accurate, but I think they can probably get these legends, right? They think that the first reference to a werewolf is in the epic of Gilgamesh. Have you actually ever read the epic of Gilgamesh? Let me think about that. I think it is possible actually that I have, but it has been a very long time. I think it's what the pieces of it. In kiddoo or in kiddoo, is that a character in Gilgamesh? Anyway, in kiddoo? Like E-N-K-I-D-U. Let me look it up. Okay, but so while you're looking that up, they're saying that Gilgamesh jilted up potential lover because she turned her previous mate into a wolf, which must have been part of the epic that I have never read. I've just read bits and pieces of it. I am correct. In kiddoo, and I don't know how to pronounce it, was a legendary figure in ancient Mesopotamian mythology, wartime comrade, and friend of Gilgamesh. Oh, I mean, you can't speak. Like I think that's Akkadian or is that Babylonian? Can't speak those ancient languages? I cannot. Nobody speaks anymore. I cannot. Their exploits were composed in Sumerian poems and in the Akkadian epic of Gilgamesh. Here we go, Akkadian, boop, boop. I remembered correctly. There you go. Yeah. So now I'm looking at a live science page on werewolves. And this says that in ancient Greece, it was believed a person could be transformed by eating the meat of a wolf that had been mixed with that of a human. And then let's see, they could be cursed into being, if somebody was conceived under a new moon, they might become a werewolf. Evidently sleeping under the full moon on a Friday or drinking water that has been touched by a wolf. These are all possible ways to become a werewolf. Wow. Or being bitten by your little cousin. Yeah, it seems to be pretty common across the world, which is interesting as an anthropologist, like why? Yes. Is this a tail or is it, why is this lore in so many different cultures? Is it just something that diffused from one to another? Or what? Now I want to do more anthropological research on it. It's a very good question. And it's not a different animal. I mean, are there cultures that it's sort of like true, but with a lion, you know, or some other animal that was more familiar to those people? Right. Well, there are other animals that have been mentioned, like a pig, like people can transform into a pig cat calf or even owl and still be called a werewolf, which I find interesting. Wow. Yeah. But in most traditions, werewolves are humans that turn into wolves, whether for a night, 101 days or forever. Those are the options. Yeah, so they were pretty fluid with the lore here. What was really interesting, really interesting stuff? Yes, it's funny. I keep thinking of watching, you know, I'm watching Wheel of Time concurrently here. And so definitely there is, I won't spoil anything, but there is a wolf aspect to Wheel of Time. Yeah. I did want to mention this one article I found. Believe it or not, on Forbes. Have you written, Forbes Magazine has amazing articles, I have to say. Oh. And this article was published back in 2018 and written by Robin Andrews. And it's called, "Here's what happens to werewolves on the moon according to geophysics." Oh my gosh. I know it's amazing. And evidently this guy has written about, how does this put it? I've been pondering on this dilemma for the last 24 hours and so, or so. And as someone who once wielded his geological training to work out how to kill Dr. Who's Weave Beat Angels, I was like, I have got to go read more of this person's stuff. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah, evidently on Twitter, this comedian by the name of Matthew Hyton sent out something after much discussion with no definitive answer. Can someone please tell me what would happen if we sent a werewolf to the moon? And then this professor Brian Cox got in, I guess it was, it sent off this huge discussion. And this professor Cox's response was, oh, if he doesn't have a space, then he'll just be dead. I was like, I gotta go find this Twitter feed if it's still there. Oh, that's funny. I sent you the link 'cause it was funny. And I post the link in our show notes so if anybody else wants to go read it, yeah. It was quite funny. But yes, because it is, and I guess, I mean, you said that some of them for 100 days or 101 days and some of them for a lifetime, is it always this connection with the moon that we're so familiar with? Well, that's a good question. And I'd have to go back and see, but I don't think so. I'm not right where the moon came in and why in particularly movies and television, and this is from what that article that I was just talking about, talked about this as well, that it always happens at night. But the full moon can be up during the day, so while I wouldn't know where we'll have changed then, what does it have to be at night? I don't have the answer. Yeah. These are the kinds of questions that delve deeply into more. Yes, and this guy, this author of this article, said it must just be a mise en scene where it just looks better in the scene if it's dark out for television and movies. Sure. Or Michael Jackson's thriller video. All right, so that's all I had on the werewolf thing. Okay, well, great, great. So then they're on the prowl for teens making out and werewolves. Giles and Buffy are ready to humanely, they recognize that this is a person for the rest of the time and so they don't want to hurt this werewolf. They just want to capture it. I don't know what reason with it. I don't know. Don't know their final plan, but that is their plan to try to capture it. But meanwhile, on that adventure, we run into Kane, who is even worse than his namesake. He's just like, dude, dude, overdone with the toxic masculinity. Oh, and the whole what he was saying about Buffy and Giles is just disgusting. Leaked to conclusions much? Oh, and then say terrible things. Oh, ew, just, it was gross, it was gross. Yeah, I recognize that actor and I wondered what else I've seen him in, and I've seen him in a lot of stuff. The actor's Jack Conley and I've seen him and I haven't seen him in a show where he has a lot of episodes that he's in, which is really just one or so, but he was in NCIS, Supernatural, House, Grey's Anatomy, Criminal Minds, The West Wing. Sure, he's been in a lot. He had a pretty extensive. He's one of those. Yeah, yeah. He's like, no wonder I recognized him. And those aren't even half. That is just a few of the time he shows he's been in as one of the guest actors. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. He plays it well. Oh, God, he does play well. So apparently, you know, in this episode, I really felt like the lid came off the can. I mean, it was like, yeah, people just know that werewolves are a thing. This guy's searching for him and not worried about talking about these two about it. And I mean, we're not there yet, but the conversation with Oz and his aunt. So yeah, is Jordy a werewolf? And how long has that been going on? You know, I mean, just like, okay. So we may keep other things secret, but apparently werewolf dumb is really out there. Yeah, welcome to Buffy World. Yes, yes. The Buffyverse is what I should have said. That would have been better. Welcome to the Buffyverse. Exactly. I did like when Buffy called Caine Mine, your ear. Oh, yeah, that was, that was clever. Seems that was clever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Buffy comes up with them. But yeah, then Angelus runs into Theresa from... Oh gosh. Normally that would be a good thing. Angel would be somebody who'd take care of you, but in this case, she's in big trouble. And why is he carrying that stupid flower? Did you notice he's like spinning a flower around in his hand? I did. I don't know. I don't know. I'm having trouble even looking at him. I'm not at all happy with where we are right now. It only gets worse. Oh God. Yeah. I was just like, "Run, T-Run!" Yeah, nope. Yeah. And would I run from him either? Probably not. I don't think I would either. I'd be like, "Ooh." (laughs) Yes, very attractive young man. You can lock me home. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, and especially if I just had a scare from something I thought wasn't him. Right, right. And of course, invoking Buffy's name gives him-- Yeah. He's got credibility right from that. That's 100%. That would have made me trust him too. Yep. Yep. So we know that's gonna end poorly. Yeah, we should have known it from the gym scene when they named her. Finn, you know, she's dead. You're not gonna be around long, Chica. You are either werewolf or vampire. Good. Orwolf. Orwolf, yeah. Yeah. I love the conversation with Cordelia and Willow at the bronze. Yes. Bitchin' about their men's. Mm-hmm. What's he waiting for? What's his problem? Oh, that's right. He's a guy. Yeah. And Xander, guys. I think they are a couple of guys. And then the werewolf drops in to the bronze. And this is what I said-- Where does everybody drop in from? I know. Because it does, as Willow dating a werewolf, this werewolf looks hokey. [LAUGHS] The one thing I did note is that, finally, we get an appropriate reaction from people. There. Everybody screaming and running. Yes, that's what you do when a werewolf drops in. There you go. Hey, did you notice that the band was singing about a monster? Yes. I thought that was great. Nice touch. That was very cool. That was a good touch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is actually where I wrote down. It's a bad costume. Oh, yeah. Yeah, my this werewolf looks OK is right up that alley. When Kane shows up, I'm like, Kane is getting on my last nerve. Do some people really act like this? I mean, do people really act like this? Do I need to bring up the orange one? Oh, god. Fair. I shall say no more. I say no more. Just not people I hang out with. There you go. That is true. I don't think we would be hanging out with people who had to like that. No, no. OK. What have you got next? Well, it's the alley scene. I really don't have much about that. I think it's just the werewolf. Yeah, Angel and Jealous. Do you think they recognized each other on some level? No, I don't think so. I don't think because it doesn't appear that Oz remembers when he's the werewolf, you know, like what happens. And yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. I think they're just kind of playing on the traditional were enemies, but-- We leave each other alone. Yeah, yeah. OK, and then the reveal occurs. Yes, it is indeed 100% Oz. Huh. I can't understand, but it doesn't again. That's what I would say if I found myself naked in the woods. [LAUGHS] Huh? [LAUGHS] Yeah, and just-- Hall's is Aunt. And just straight up fast if he's a werewolf. What have the answer been no? Right, right. What would you do then? But maybe he knew. You know, maybe he knew. Yeah, this is a lot for Oz to process, a lot to be taking. Then, of course, it makes sense that he's not been himself. Right, right. And he's so worried that he actually killed Teresa. You know, he is yet-- I thought he was a little less surprised than I thought he would be. I did think-- I did expect a bit more of a reaction that he might have actually been the one who killed her. But just a bit. We're back to the understated reactions. Yes, that is true. It's right on par with that. Yeah, yeah. I liked that Zander Forgotty lied to Willow and Buffy. Not remembering anything, yes. Yep, yep, yep. But there's really no way to tell who it is. Oh, sure, there it is, and Giles knows stuff, and I'm practically an expert on the subject. On account of once you were a hyena. I know what it's like to crave the taste of freshly killed meat to be taken over by those uncontrollable urges. You said you didn't remember anything about that. I said I didn't remember anything about that. But I'll tell you, Zander was not afraid to get into the mix. I was a little bit impressed that he went and confronted Larry alone. He really got in his face. He did. That's what he said. And then in the spirit of misunderstanding, Larry thinks Zander is talking about something completely different. And Larry is gay. Yeah. Our first, I mean, right, our first, at all, not straight heterosexual situation here on movie The Vampire Slayer? I don't know. I haven't confirmed this myself, but again, on the Rewatcher podcast. They-- I can't remember who mentioned it, but they mentioned that at this point in the series, they were actually toying with the idea of making one of the main characters gay. Ah. But then clearly, they decided not to go with Zander here. Yeah. They instead decide to make a big galoot. [LAUGHTER] I was trying to remember what word you were using last time. The loop is a loop. I put a G at the end of it. The loop, OK. Big galig. But I'm saying it correctly now. The big galoot. There we go. [LAUGHTER] Sorry, I'll bring it in here. No, no, so it's totally fine. Yeah. I like to think that younger people today, if someone thought they were gay, wouldn't freak out like Zander does. Yes. But I don't know. And Bia's, I mean, I didn't know what Larry's secret was when he said they'd run me out of town. I'll be off the team. You know, I had not gone to gay until he flat out said it. And I could totally see something like that have happened in the '90s. And I guess maybe it's probably something. I mean, they're probably-- I mean, we hear about it from gay people all the time, well, not all the time, but unfortunately, too frequently about parents who still can't deal with it. And so maybe some people would freak out if people thought they were gay because of the social consequences. It's sad. Oh, it's terrible. It is sad. Yeah. And I don't let any of my students, if they ever say normal sexuality, and I'm like, well, prove to me that homosexuality isn't normal. Right. One of these days, nobody's going to give a shit. That would be great, because his business is at nobody's. Yeah, well, I don't care. As long as it's too consenting adults, I don't-- Exactly. I don't give a day. Yeah, four. You know, just as long as everybody is. As long as everybody is a consenting adult, I don't care. Exactly. Exactly. You like those pink cat and eye tails? Like Madame Tracy had in Good Omens? Yeah. I don't care. Yeah. Nobody's been using them on me, and I say, no. And you still use them anywhere. It's better than I'm going to care. Then there's a problem. That's a problem. All right. Let's move on. OK. What do you have next? Well, then I have that Buffy's profile is apparently where wolfish. So this must have been when they were trying to come up with some other candidates. That's quite funny. I like that. And I don't like that Willow was like, Cordelia wants to meet about history homework, which probably means she wants me to do it for her. What does her own work? Yeah. I feel like she's having somebody else write her stuff. Yeah. I mean, there has been no kind of evidence of that. We've seen her go to teachers to get help. Yeah, I think she's quite a good student. Yeah, I think so too. She's a sneaky little good student. People don't know if she's a student of her. Her fellow students don't expect it of her. Exactly. Wonder if they had like National Honor Society at Sunnydale High. Yeah. Because if she's a good student, she would show up on that and everybody would know. On a roll. They publish those things. They sure do. Oh, you know what I hated in this episode? The toxic masculinity is in the next scene when Zander and Buffy are at the funeral home. Yes. You know, when they find out Teresa's, vampires, Zander states, Teresa saves the day. Using like an easel. Yes. I did not like that scene between Buffy and Zander. Oh. When she looked like they were about to kiss. Yep. I'm like, uh-uh. No, no, no. I, in fact, said, here's-- here was my little scene summary. Vampire killed Teresa. Sheesh. Oh. Yeah. Angel made her a vampire just to get at Buffy. Nice work with the easel, Zander. Nope. No lovey dovey, Zander. Yeah. Oh, I didn't like it. No. No. Yeah, more cruelty. I mean, this Angelus is really trouble. Yeah. He's heavier. Mm-hmm. I don't understand. You know, I feel like the wooden stake has to at least be sharp. I mean, if I were to hit you in the back, which I would never do, if I were going to hit you in the back with an easel, it wouldn't pierce your skin. I mean, what do these vampires have to be careful about bumping into the corner of a wooden table? Yeah. Or how much force would Zander have had to use to get that to pierce her? Yeah, it's a pretty blunt instrument. Yeah. Yeah. And plus, you've got to get through some bone to get to that heart. Yeah. I think they're planted a little fast and loose. I would agree with that statement. I would. Can we just skip the scene with Kane and his van? Definitely. All right. He made himself a silver bullet. Yeah, there we go. Scene over, and we're on to Oz's house. OK. Does Oz have parents? I don't know. I have written down where his parents that he feels free to dump manacles on the diameter table. And where does one get manacles that look like they're from the Spanish Inquisition? [LAUGHTER] [MUSIC PLAYING] Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Crazy. Nice. I don't know. Well, Sunnydale, who knows? Who knows? Right there. It's like you just had him in the basement. Yeah, passed down. They're a family heirloom. Well, there you go. My great, great, great, great grandfather is that a pirate or another werewolf. Yeah, maybe that's what they are. Every-- everybody. I was just family. Each family gets a set of manacles just in case. There you go. There you go. I don't want to say that I laughed that much about what I was thinking in my head. [LAUGHTER] All good. I thought maybe Oz was going to come clean about werewolfing. But he did not. Willow arrives, ready to make her move, ready to go. And Oz turns into a werewolf and chases after. Yeah, yeah. I did like the makeup they did on Seth Green. While he was changing? While he was changing. Mm-hmm. That was nice. Nice hands. Yeah. Yeah, that was nice. But that damn costume. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of a gorilla suit. Mm-hmm. I thought Willow was pretty lucky that that trash cane was empty. Oh, my gosh. [LAUGHTER] Imagine if you grabbed it to collect Oz, the werewolf. And it was bull, a trash. And it would have dumped all on her. It's true. Grody. Oh, my gosh. I haven't said grody since the '80s, I think. [LAUGHTER] I've said it. I've said it. I've said it since. I've definitely said so. So cane's obviously ready to kill. Yep. But Giles and Buffy aren't given up on tranquilizing the werewolf, despite Teresa's staff. Yeah. Yeah. I like when, even at that point, they didn't know it was Oz. They were still good. Because it was a suicide. Like, what Buffy said, 28 days out of the month? That's right. That's right. And then Willow comes and it says, it says, it says, it says. Mm-hmm. Did you notice the continuity? Continuity. Holy cow. I definitely didn't notice any continuity. I have seriously every trouble with the English language today. The continuity error. No. Continuity. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I think you coined a phrase. I can't do a word. Continuity. OK. Back, Tory. Back, back, back. My cheeks are actually warm. [LAUGHTER] OK. I'm back. I got it. I got it together here. OK. The continuity problem is, you know, Willow falls down in the forest in those atrocious neon yellow overalls. Mm-hmm. And when she gets up, she's got dirt all over her ass. Oh. When you see her turn around to leave the library, she's got spanking clean overalls on. Interesting. So I just thought I'd bring that up. It's always bugged me. I mean, every time I watch this episode, it bugs me. It jumps out at you again. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I was thinking that the school must be, like, adjacent to these woods. Yes. Because they-- I mean, Willow got to the school really quick. And then she just says, he's in the woods. You know, just the woods. There's just a woods. There's one woods. And it's the woods everybody knows. And everybody knows how to get around in it. Yes. Yes. I mean, I'm trying to think of where in California Sunday day would be with those kinds of woods. And yet it's supposed to be fairly close, I think, to the beach, too. Oh. Thought I could be wrong about that. I'll have to look that up. I'm probably wrong about that. But it is kind of odd how fast things were happening. And people were getting places. And, of course, Buffy gets there in the nick of time to save Oz. Absolutely. But the one who really comes through is Willow, who shoots him. She tranks him. She tranks him. She tranks him. And she's like, I shot offs. No, Willow, you tranked Oz. That's right. Yeah. I think I would have liked to have some kind of response from Kane when Buffy tells him, oh, she, he does. What does he say? When she tells him, you know, to leave and let the door hit him in the ass. I've got to be honest. I blocked out a lot that that character said. Because it wasn't worth my attention. Did he have a come to Jesus moment about women? No way. Unlike Larry. Larry did have a come to Jesus moment. He really did. Helped that young lady with her books wasn't looking up anybody's skirts. I really, Larry started, I said, I was a freaking werewolf. And suddenly, Larry is a real gentleman now. [LAUGHS] Yeah, I don't-- I just keep asking myself, would it couldn't have happened that fast? Maybe, you know, it's just a relief. You know, it's clear it's a relief to Larry when he admits it to Xander. And so maybe it is just, it could happen that fast, right? Because he's so relieved that he can now be the true Larry. Perhaps. We'll go ahead and hope that's the case. Well, I think that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, I almost ate you. [LAUGHS] That's awesome. It seems really cute. It is. It is. And Willow is just cool with Oz being a werewolf. Yeah, I love that. There's three days out of the month. I'm not much fun to be around. [LAUGHS] What a nice way to be, or it's a good euphemism phrase. Yes. For menstruation. Yes. And Oz, I like how he said, you're quite the human instead of, oh, you're quite the girl. Yes. Very Ozzy. Yeah. Very Ozzy. Yes. And Willow. Whoo-hoo-hoo-hoo. Taking the kiss. Taking it on herself to initiate the kiss. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I liked it. I did too. I'm like, you go, Willow, you go. And Oz is smitten. [LAUGHS] He's cute. He is smitten. He's a werewolf in love. I mean, he goes ahead and says in love. I mean, that's big. Yeah. Yep. Wow. It's-- I like that episode. I know it's not typically rated very high, but I don't know. I think it's kind of a fun little episode. Mm. It's not going to be high on my list. [LAUGHS] Oh, it's redeeming-- I mean, I like Oz. And so I liked the Oz of it. It was laden with a lot of junk, but I didn't care for me. Yeah. And I hate where Angel is. So I'm not in a good place right now. [LAUGHS] Could I have done without the toxic masculinity, which I've said about a dozen times in this podcast? Yes. But I like that they're kind of setting it up that Oz is also a part of this weird universe, right, that we find in Sunnydale. He's a big part. A big part, a big part. And it gives a good reason to have him join the Scoobies. Mm-hmm. Though he already was a part even before this. Yeah, yeah. He was quickly indoctrinated right after he saw the vampire turn to dust. [LAUGHS] I don't think he had to be a vampire in order to be part of the club. Yeah. Well-- I mean, not a vampire. A werewolf. A werewolf. Sorry. He's not a vampire. Now it would have been bad if they would have turned him into a werewolf. Oh, yes. [LAUGHS] A vampire. Oh, gosh. Yes. Maybe they're just-- Maybe. [LAUGHS] It's possible. It's possible. We've made it through. Oh, Lord. Yes. Oz is now a werewolf, and we'll see what comes to pass. Yes, we will. I'm sorry. Do you have other things to say? I don't want to cut you off just because I can't-- Oh, no. I have closed my notebook. I read my last note. All right. I'm good. All right, then. We are just left with saying bye. Thanks for listening, everybody. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the Shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 2 re-watch, is Apache Rock instrumental by soundetelier. Available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at witstvpod@gmail.com. That's witstvpod@gmail.com. [MUSIC PLAYING] Subscribe. And subscribe. And then subscribe. Subscribe. Hit that subscribe button.
